CCUS Panel Discussion (Part 2)

Tune into Episode 2 of the World Cement podcast to hear the second half of the CCUS-focused panel discussion from EnviroTech 2024.
This episode includes the second half of the discussion and features insights from:

• Nate Lozanoski – Global Sr. Offering Manager - Carbon Capture Solutions  at Honeywell UOP
• Burcin Temel Mckenna – Global Head of Carbon Capture at Ramboll
• Paul Monaghan – Group Head of Sustainability at Mannok
• Ângela Nunes – Innovation Director at SECIL

Keep an eye out for future episodes featuring insight and expertise from leaders in the cement industry.
Remember to support the World Cement podcast by subscribing, rating, and reviewing!

Creators and Guests

Host

David Bizley

As well as the day-to-day editing of content and working with article authors and advertisers, he is actively involved in the commissioning of material for both the magazine and its expanding online presence.

What is World Cement Podcast?

The World Cement podcast: a podcast series for professionals in the cement industry.

David Bizley: 00:02

Hello again, everyone, and welcome back to the World Cement podcast. I'm David Bisley, senior editor of World Cement, and this is episode two. Today, we're going to pick up from where we left off last time by traveling time to March 2024 and the closing panel discussion of EnviroTech twenty twenty four. We are once again going to be featuring CCUS related insights and ideas from Nate Lozynowski of Honeywell UOP, Bertrand McKenna from Rambo, Paul Monaghan from Mannock, and Angela Nunez from Cecil. So sit back and enjoy.

David Bizley: 00:41

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David Bizley: 01:16

Now another topic that, you've each, I think, raised independently of even asking empathy about it so far as funding. So starting with you, Bertin, anyway. What are the options available for funding, like, these high CapEx projects like carbon capture facilities?

Burcin Temel Mckenna: 01:30

There are national subsidy opportunities present. And, so Danish government, started that last year and they will continue, progressively for the next few years too. It's also a similar story in Sweden. But I think for Europe, the most significant one is the EU Innovation Fund applications. And I know that even getting the earlier studies, feasibility feed studies are these are challenging, financially challenging for the cement producers right now without also knowing are we really going to invest and when.

Burcin Temel Mckenna: 02:08

But some of those studies can be also sponsored by Just Transition Fund. That's another available funding scheme in Europe, and it especially encourages for these earlier studies so that the players can come to the right maturity level for their project development. In US, of course, a myriad of DOE applications going on. But besides this, we also see that there is a private investors group coming up now because there is a need for green c o two credits. And where do you get them from?

Burcin Temel Mckenna: 02:46

As long as the c o two is stored and there is a good portion of biogenic c o two in that, it's definitely creates a, let's say, a more appealing business case for the investors. Some of the tenders in Denmark are emitters are looking for concessions, meaning that they are looking for investors. A few parties coming together willing to invest into a capture unit where they will also own the captured c o two, and they can decide on the fate of that c o two afterwards. But I think we will see more and more of that market developing in the next couple years. K.

David Bizley: 03:26

Thank you. Very comprehensive answer. Thank you. So, Paul, can you tell us a bit about your process when looking for funding for projects like this?

Paul Monaghan: 03:35

Yeah. So I suppose what we have found has worked for us is and it's probably on the back of trying to be innovative in in in our thinking and publication of our long term strategy that was received, very well by the the national government agencies is, it opens doors to have a conversation about funding for, the early work that you need to do around these decarbonization technologies, including carbon capture. So we currently put a lot of effort into as well as adapting the cement plants, that you would have seen in my presentation with upgrades that need to be done to displace the fossil fuels and use more alternative fuels. There's a lot of work that goes on that's going on in the background around various different RD and I and exploring innovation, feasibility studies, feed studies, research. There's a huge amount of work that's going on with the team, the technical team, the cement team, some PhD people, I suppose, that are searching and screening and trying to derisk some of those decisions we're gonna have to make for investments, in the future.

Paul Monaghan: 04:38

And that's the approach that we take. So it's very much you'd start off and you have all this stuff here. And you need something in the middle that works for you that's gonna act as a as a really good credible screen or a filter in terms of actually the technologies, that you're gonna end up, adopting, in the future. So that's the kind of approach we have. Very good relationships, in in particular, with the government agencies in Ireland and and Northern Ireland, that have supported us with funding for these this type of work.

Paul Monaghan: 05:08

And you probably saw with the Hygiene Project, that I'm leading on. We're doing that through the the UK government, and that will be developed in in Northern Ireland. So that's the route that we have taken to help for us to learn about what the right solutions are, but also to help our investors on our board and our senior managers to give them the right information, the right time for FID to make those, I suppose, those important decisions. So we have one cement factory, so we've only got one shot at it. So we have to get it right, David.

Paul Monaghan: 05:40

Okay.

David Bizley: 05:41

Thank you. And, Ângela, I'll ask the same question to you. How are you pursuing the issue of funding for your project?

Ângela Nunes: 05:47

Well, we see if that's and it was said already by you, the partnership is key for this. Because we found out that here, there are several experience in the other sectors can help us developing such projects, not only in terms of technology, but also in terms of financing. So taking the best value for the project is key, and these partnerships may help a lot in between other sectors, other industries, or even by funding pure funding for investments, as you mentioned, for the credits case. And that's why we are so focused in this transformation of the cement plants to a more biogenic c o two. K.

Ângela Nunes: 06:33

And there is also another question that I think is very relevant because we already recognize carbonation, concrete carbonation, as a mineralization. And this happens always. So the reaction, all the geogenic emissions that we have today could be considered somehow neutralized along the lifespan of a structure. If this is true, we remain and we should be very focused on the combustion emissions. So dealing with this and transform transforming these fossil emissions into biogenic ones would be key to have a solution for financing our own projects.

Ângela Nunes: 07:16

So I think this could be very, very interesting way to go. Well explored.

David Bizley: 07:21

Thank you.

Ângela Nunes: 07:22

Of course, the external support for innovation fund, etcetera, it's a motivation to start earlier, to test, to demonstrate. If we get that support, we are willing to demonstrate. We are willing to learn, of course, because it's a kind of a derisk of the project. So it's also very interesting.

David Bizley: 07:42

Thank you. And I direct that question to well, an element of Angela's answer to you, Nate. How important do you then see the role of collaboration in making these sort of carbon capture projects come to fruition?

Nate Lozanoski: 07:54

Yeah. I think collaboration is key. We talked about it earlier. We're in different industries, and there's lots I can learn about the cement industry, and you can learn about the oil and gas industry. So those collaborations are actually extraordinarily important.

Nate Lozanoski: 08:06

Right? And I I didn't wanna stop at the collaboration of just us providing a carbon capture technology to you. I think Honeywell as a corporation has a much wider scope in some things, and and the way we've worked with other cement producers is we have a a Honeywell building technology solution group. We talk about the embodied carbon in a building, but also the operational carbon footprint of a building. And how do we jointly approach architects and engineers to say, look, considering the embodied carbon of this, but I've also designed a control system in consideration of specific cement attributes or concrete attributes that lower the overall consumption of the energy building.

Nate Lozanoski: 08:40

I think we jointly have to work together to drive the industry to adopt low carbon cement and and work together to be able to get in front of structured finance folks and and show them how we derisk the project. So financing a carbon capture project is much easier from us. So I think for us at Honeywell, the collaboration is is well beyond the vendor customer relationship. We have to work together really proactively to find creative ways to drive demand for that green cement and get the financing available for the removal credits you could be selling on the open market.

David Bizley: 09:12

Okay. And sticking with you, Nate, for the moment, and moving back to the sort of the technologies that are currently available, is there a capture solution for every cement plant at the current level of technology, or are there still some that are currently it just does not apply to their process?

Nate Lozanoski: 09:31

I would say

David Bizley: 09:31

Without knowing every yeah. It's all around the world. Yeah.

Nate Lozanoski: 09:33

Yeah. As an engineer, I'm gonna caveat that answer already. It depends. You know, we see there is probably a bolt on solution, you know, for all cement plants at a very high level in discussions. Right?

Nate Lozanoski: 09:44

But I have yet to see a cement plant that was designed with space associated with a future carbon capture facility. Right? So, like, yes. At a high level, you say everyone has the availability or the potential to apply carbon capture. But once you start looking at it, you know, we don't want to be selling to make the overall process less efficient than it could be.

Nate Lozanoski: 10:06

So we are developing new technologies. And so, yes, today's technologies of PSAs and cryogenics and and amine technologies work for the majority of them, but we're also gonna launch new technologies in the future for those cement plants that might be in slightly more remote locations or have different, situational challenges.

David Bizley: 10:24

Okay. And, Burcin, as well for you, do you see the likely increasing cost of the end price of cement being a stumbling block to the the implementation of carbon capture systems?

Burcin Temel Mckenna: 10:37

I look at it more positively. I think if your product is green, you get the premium price for it. So you have a right to sell it for much higher. And knowing that majority of the cement and concrete is is simply, demanded by public procurement projects, the moment governments will start asking for green cement, I think it will give the right mandate to the producers to get the right price for it. And, there are a number of studies showing that even if the cement price would say triple, approximately it will double or it will go two and a half times higher.

Burcin Temel Mckenna: 11:20

If you look at the overall infrastructure price increase, it's couple percent for a housing, residential building, and it's maybe four or 5% for a much larger infrastructure like a bridge. And then after I say this, I'll get the question, oh, but who is gonna buy really from me at that point? Again, off taker agreements are quite relevant and important here. And it's a collaboration and partnership at the end. Somebody has to be willing to pay and which we know there will be parties willing to pay for green cement.

Burcin Temel Mckenna: 11:57

And then there will be also commitment to build the carbon capture and produce that. K.

David Bizley: 12:03

Thank you. From a producer's perspective, Anja, does that ring true to you, what Burcin was saying?

Ângela Nunes: 12:09

There is always a competition between cement and concrete with other materials, but I think there is room for everybody. As concrete is one of the most democratic, I could say, materials or more used by men to our own houses, to our own cities, This could lead to, important challenge to the communities because if the price of the houses increases too much, it could be difficult somehow. But in fact, I think the governments and the public projects should be the first one to promote these arrangements. And if we don't get that support, it will be very difficult to go through to our own markets. And it's also true that by the end of the day, there is a very significant increase in cost on cement production.

Ângela Nunes: 13:00

I would say really very increased costs.

David Bizley: 13:04

Yeah.

Ângela Nunes: 13:05

The impact on the concrete is not so high, but even though it's still very important for the community. This is something that we need to address. We need some help. We need the understanding of the people that this has a cost. Become green has a cost.

Ângela Nunes: 13:21

But maybe we can do on the opposite way. Maybe the gray products, I would say, could have some penalty to compensate this effect. Maybe this could be a motivating way to go through with it.

David Bizley: 13:37

K. Thank you. And, Paul, as a producer as well, does that chime with your thoughts?

Paul Monaghan: 13:42

Yeah. I kind of I I and I'm not sure what the answer is. I do have this thought in my head in terms of I mean, currently at the moment is low carbon cement is a very niche product. Are you going to decarbonize the cement industry, and you're gonna do that gradually over time to the point where the products available is all gonna be decarbonized, and the price will be the the price will be the price, or will you have this market where you have a premium for a low carbon product, and then you have the the higher carbon stuff. I think it'll I think I want I wonder about that in my head.

Paul Monaghan: 14:13

And particularly, when we've come out of a a stage of really the energy price inflation, and where cement and build up parts manufacture have had to increase the prices. The market has absorbed those price increase. And, I do agree on the public procurement side. There's a target where we operate where you have to reduce the embodied carbon by 10% by twenty twenty five and thirty percent by by so that's the kind of the stick that's being used. So public procurement, they're the biggest secure of concrete, maybe 50 plus percent.

Paul Monaghan: 14:47

And then the carrot then is we'll support the industry to decarbonize. So we provide funding or support to so on. So will it be a kind of like a gradual thing where we decarbonize and we arrive at a certain point for decarbonized cement versus a product that's very, very niche at the moment. And maybe that attracts a premium for certain marquee projects and stuff like that too as well. But I also bring it back to a point because you you can't have you can't talk about this without coming back to the energy in a decarbonized, cement.

Paul Monaghan: 15:20

So more energy, more green energy is expensive. Green energy, green electricity will continue to be expensive, And getting the amount that you need and when you need us at the the price point that the industry can absorb, I think, is a real is a real challenge for the business. That's also gonna impact the pricing within the industry too as well.

David Bizley: 15:43

K. Thank you. Now I had promised that we'd be talking about other topics, but we've sort of almost the entirety of our time with Carbon Capture sort of just goes to show and and the the questions I've been putting to you are questions that have been raised throughout the course of, the last few days. So from our last question, I'm gonna ask you to get out your your your crystal balls and your horoscopes. And imagine you're sitting here in 2034 at the tenth anniversary of Envirotech, of course.

David Bizley: 16:09

Where do you see the cement industry on its decarbonisation journey, Ângela?

Ângela Nunes: 16:14

Well, I see the cement industry optimized in terms of CO2 emissions. A big amount of our emissions as biogenic to somehow will compensate in the future. The fossil that we need to stowage at this price will compensate somehow the business case. I will see at the concrete site more and more greener concrete. It's key for us.

Ângela Nunes: 16:42

All this solution of calcined clays and so on. The SCMs are key also for us to decrease clinker factor. It's also very important to have this high level of alternative fuels that the biomass context should be very high. That means we need this source of organic materials, but we also need the boost. We also need some hydrogen.

Ângela Nunes: 17:08

All these hydrogen valleys, all these partnerships that are arising are very important to allow us to go as much as possible on these biogenic materials as a fuel. Hydrogen will also play a role on this. That's for sure. And then I see in 20 all these, carbon capture projects starting and arising to to allow us to make all this mineralization in our value chain, so in concrete products and so on. I also see a industry I'm dreaming.

Ângela Nunes: 17:43

So sorry. I'm a dreamer. So okay. But, I also see an industry that it's much more circular. So not only in terms of materials, so recovering, demolition waste and other materials as much as possible, but I'm also see, an industry that can also be circular with the c o two.

Ângela Nunes: 18:06

And it's not only the industries, the overall society. Little by little, this is possible, having some circularity of the c o two. And I think it's a small seam that we can spray that. Maybe it will grow, and the technologies are there. We are thinking in big carbon capture units.

Ângela Nunes: 18:28

Maybe in the future, what we are talking more about modular carbon capture units that can be applied in several sectors in several ways and easily wait. So, that's my dream. Sorry.

David Bizley: 18:42

And, Burcin, where do you think we'll be?

Burcin Temel Mckenna: 18:45

I think in 2034, we'll see a lot of cement plants already capturing and storing the CO two. I'm very convinced about it. And, we'll see a number of new cement plants with oxy fuel technology. Probably all the new builds will be based on that. And we'll also see that there will be significant amount of transport and storage that will be working, and and there will be a market for carbon trading.

Burcin Temel Mckenna: 19:18

K. Thank you.

David Bizley: 19:19

And, Nate, as somebody who's not really an insider to the cement industry, what do you think our prospects are?

Nate Lozanoski: 19:24

Yeah. I mean, everything they've said is, I think, aligned with where I'm at. But I also think as the industry continues to evaluate and adopt carbon capture, I think there's gonna be the early adopters, the projects that are getting up and going, the early successes, and a number of other producers are gonna say, okay. This is a a secure way to decarbonize. How quickly can I now do it?

Nate Lozanoski: 19:46

And I think the industry from, you know, the carbon capture perspective is we're we're gonna be overloaded, right, in terms of the steel production, refineries, cement, power companies. And so while you're trying to meet your 2050 goal or mitigate an ETS taxation, there's gonna be significant pinch points in the industry for compressors to get the CO two compressed and taken away from you, heat exchangers. And I know this sounds like a decade from now, oh, we're gonna be worrying about equipment supplies. I think we're gonna be sitting in this room talking about what can I do to accelerate the project that I know will work? Right?

Nate Lozanoski: 20:22

And so I think those are things to think about starting your journey on the carbon capture early, understanding really what it takes, and hopefully being ahead of the game so that you can meet those decarbonization goals, and your net zero commitments.

David Bizley: 20:34

K. Thank you. And, Paul, last word.

Paul Monaghan: 20:38

So in 2034, there won't be any free allocation of carbon credits. Right. Okay. That's number one. Number two is what will the the the carbon price be?

Paul Monaghan: 20:49

Okay. That's probably a question that's relevant to the industry today because for me, the price of carbon is artificially low, and that's a problem for the industry and decision makers. So I'll just leave that there, and we can talk about it later. I think we'll be here from a manic perspective, and we will always, work in the spirit of innovation. And we will work with people, in kind to find, new innovative, efficient, solutions, and that will include carbon capture and other decarbonization technologies too as well.

Paul Monaghan: 21:22

The industry is basically you'll have a decarbonized industry. It will be well on its way. It will have started probably using several different carbon capture technologies, and I think then the utilization and storage, some of those options will will find a way. They'll become they'll they'll become clear about what the best options are, but we're an essential industry producing an essential material, and we employ many people. And we're also driving innovation and developing new skills.

Paul Monaghan: 21:50

And so, we'll be here. I'll be here, David. That was it. So I'll save you a seat. That's the that's the message.

Paul Monaghan: 21:57

We'll be here.

David Bizley: 21:58

K. Fantastic. Well, please, warm round of applause for our panelists. Closing our panel discussion in, that does actually bring Envirotech twenty twenty four to a close. I'd like to once again give a huge thank you to all of our sponsors, our exhibitors, our partner associations, and, of course, our fantastic speakers and panelists.

David Bizley: 22:20

But also all of you as well, thank you for coming along on this journey with us, and I'll see you all at the next EnviroTek. Thank you everyone, and goodbye for now. Okay. There we go. That's it for episode two of the World Cement podcast and wraps up the CCUS panel discussion from Envirotech twenty twenty four.

David Bizley: 22:42

It's certainly gonna be interesting to see how opinions have changed with regard to those CCUS related issues, if at all, at this year's EnviroTek. So stay tuned for that. And be sure to keep an eye out for future episodes of the World Cement podcast as they become available on your platform of choice. Until then, goodbye for now. Hello everyone, I just wanted to take a moment to remind you to register for World Cement.

David Bizley: 23:12

It's free of charge and gives you access to the latest issues of World Cement. Simply head over to worldcement.com, click the magazine tab and register today.