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Scientists talk about what they do and why they do what they do. Their motivations, their trajectory, their setbacks, their achievements. They offer their personal take on science, mentoring and the many aspects that have shaped their work and their lives. Hosted by journalist Vivien Marx. Her work has appeared in Nature journals, Science, The Economist, The NY Times, The Wall Street Journal Europe and New Scientist among others. (Art: Justin Jackson)
Transcript
Being an LGBTQ+ ally: a conversation with Lucas Lixinski
Note: These podcasts are produced to be heard. If you can, please tune in. Transcripts are generated using speech recognition software and there’s a human editor. But a transcript may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting.
Vivien:
Hi and welcome to Conversations with scientists. I'm science journalist Vivien Marx. On this show, scientists talk about what they do and why they do what they do. It's science with a personal take. This show is for anyone interested in science, and it's a bit about culture too, especially in today's podcast. Do you have an ally? They are the people who support you when things are good, and they are there when things are not so good. For the LGBTQ+ community, allies are especially important. I came across a piece on LGBTQ+ allyship in Times Higher Education, and I liked it a lot. It's by Lucas Luxinski, a professor at the Faculty of Law and Justice at the University of New South Wales, Sydney, in Australia. In the piece, he talks about his experiences as a gay man in academia and about the importance of allyship. He writes honestly and openly about how hard being an ally can be, but also how wonderful it is. Do please read it if you have time. There's a link here in the show transcript.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/campus/what-lgbtq-allyship-means-academia
I reached out to him to hear more on this subject of allyship as I wrote about LGBTQ plus allyship for Nature Methods. A link to the story is in the show notes, too.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41592-026-03101-1
The story is also with him. Here's a sneak peek of one thing he said about the power of a supportive smile.
Lucas Lixinski
Even a supportive smile goes a long way, and it does a lot of good for the person giving the smile as well. Right?
Vivien
We'll get to more of what he said shortly. Here's just a bit of background in science, technology, engineering, and math, sometimes called STEM, especially in the US, but in other countries too. There are funding cuts to currently grapple with for the LGBTQ plus community.
Other difficulties sadly exist too, and they are not new, but they underscore how important it is to have allies. Allies, by the way, need not be LGBTQ+ themselves; anyone can be an ally. One issue is that when communities have traditionally been marginalized, and this does not only apply to the LGBTQ+ community. Their identity can be used against them in STEM fields, and there have been papers on this. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe0933
It can be considered unscientific if someone talks about, for instance, being a member of the LGBTQ+ community.
This aspect of their identity can be used to draw their scientific expertise and neutrality into question. I encountered a biologist at a UK university. I need to keep this person anonymous. This person is on the faculty and is an out person who advocates for the LGBTQ community at their university, they are facing haters, and it's deeply unsettling to this biologist. It's a situation where allies can help. Allies have lots of options, and anyone can learn how to be an ally. There are many recommendations to find on university sites.
On a site at the University of Bath in the UK, some recommendations are to speak up when a person uses slurs, assumptions, stereotypes, or harmful language. Another recommendation is promote diversity and celebrate different identities on the University of California, Davis site called the LGBTQIA Resource Center. center, you can find many recommendations, including take responsibility for your own education on issues related to gender identity and sexual orientation, and another one is making mistakes is part of the learning process of practicing allyship, acknowledge and apologize for mistakes, learn from them, but do not retreat.
Back to Lucas LIxinski. I was on the road when I spoke with him, and the internet connection was difficult, but it worked out. I was in Massachusetts, and he was in Brazil. So, here is the conversation I had with him about being an ally to the LGBTQ plus community, he also shares some nice and wise Brazilian sayings.
Vivien
Hello there.
Lucas Lixinski
Hello.
Vivien
Ah, fantastic. Oh, the internet wasn't working yesterday, so today it's working.
Lucas Lixinski
Hello,
happy days. I'm glad it is.
Vivien
I just wanted to say sorry for the interesting background. I am actually in Provincetown.
Lucas Lixinski
Oh, cool.
Vivien
Yes, I was in a meeting, immunology meeting in Boston. I decided two days in Provincetown is what I need. I've just had a bunch of things. The fridge doesn't work, the internet was kind of off, but it's fine. It's also freezing, but. I got extra blankets, but so, and I'm looking very windswept, because I actually went biking this morning, so I apologize.
Lucas Lixinski
Lovely, oh, biking there is so much fun.
Vivien
It is, it is. So, thank you for making the time for this. This is awesome. So, I thought that your piece in Times Higher Education, it is, was really, really so good, and that's why it's beautiful to be able to chat with you about just a few things. This idea of being an ally is, of course, old, and much has been written about it, but it just seems, at least in the US, that it's quite difficult these days. And you wrote a little bit that times are scary, and I love the bit about how it's okay to hide, but first, you know, you're reading on what it's like right now in your observation for people who would like to be allies, but are a little, let's just call it hesitant about that.
Lucas Lixinski
There is something tricky, right, when everyone is on survival mode in some way, right, and because funding is being cut left, right, and center in the US, so people feel like they're putting their own oxygen masks on before, you know, looking to decide. So when people are putting their own oxygen masks on first, which I totally get, it's very hard to kind of go into survival mode, but then I think it's also important to take a deep breath and realize that we are stronger together, right? So that there is still room for allyship, and of course a need for allyship, because your funding may be cut, and that may jeopardize people's jobs, and I absolutely got that, but but there's something deeper in identity for authors, right? You're being a lot of LGBTQ plus people by being pushed back into the closet, or God forbid, right, being forced to detransition because certain policies for them, it cuts a lot closer to the bone, right, and and even a supportive smile goes a long way, and it does a lot, a hell, a lot of good for the person giving the smile, as well.
Right, there's all.. I'm by no means a psychologist, but I listen to, and I read a lot in psychology, and there's all these academic literature on how, when it comes to helping, the benefits to the person helping tend to be even bigger than to the person being helped,
Vivien
that's so great, right? Because some people maybe don't know what to, what to say or how to act right now, because they know that someone is, you know, not being able to be their full self. And I write mainly, you know, for scientists and academics, and I think right now people are feeling very kind of scrunched in their identity because of the funding cuts, and then, of course, other issues, in particularly in certain states, are just have gotten so, so difficult. Yeah, so that's nice of you to say it that way, that it's like the little gestures go a long way. That's beautiful.
Lucas Lixinski
Yeah, they really do.
Vivien
I mean, I was surprised. I was by coincidence that I came across this UK academic, and I hadn't really considered that to be an issue, but.. and I don't know the details of what this person is experiencing, but just if you're an advocate at a university for your community and you just get, I don't know, it sounds very intense for them, and they're not comfortable with naming names, there's sort of issues, but that I think, so when you know that these kinds of things are going on at your university, and you're an ally, maybe you're gay, maybe you're straight.
What are kind of the things that you see people doing? I mean, obviously there are workshops, and there are all kinds of things people can do, but the little things that you can do when you see things in your department, or at meetings, or maybe conferences that are not quite, you know, advocating in a big way for them, little things,
Lucas Lixinski
I mean, there's a range of things, right? There's disarming a situation before it becomes bigger, right? Sometimes making a joke or just a nudge, look, the actual pronouns are these, right? And
that's fun. Yes, exactly right. Just to retune a situation that is happening, yes,
exactly, before it escalates, right. And I think something that helps me, even though I'm not great at following through myself, but it's to approach a situation I think needs to be defeated. Used more with a curiosity mindset than or using curiosity words than a confrontational thing. I have this colleague who, in different contexts, but he uses the sentence that I'm really trying to use in almost every situation, which is I really don't understand what you're trying to say. Can you help me out here? You know, which is more if someone says something that is, you think is bigoted, right? Instead of calling someone a bigot, which only escalates attention, is like, let me try, help me understand where you're coming from.
Vivien
Oh, I see. You kind of start soft, and then start
Lucas Lixinski
very soft, and put it on them to actually have to spell out what's going on, right? And it may be that the person actually is a bigot, but then when you put them on the spot to explain and justify your bigotry, right, as opposed to just let it sit as a comment, I think there's a lot of power in that, because they cannot accuse me of escalating, because I'm just asking a very gentle, curious kind of question, right? So it's on them to then, yeah, and in my experience, like 90% of the time, people just kind of pull it right back.
Vivien
That's so interesting, that's really, that's, that's, that's, it's cool. How to just kind of not go into that place where it's going to get into an ugly place, and particularly, you know, even if you're either a member of the LGBT community or not. Wow, I mean, the other,
Lucas Lixinski
Don't come at it from pain, commit it from compassion, I suppose, in a way, but mostly, yeah, just curiosity and assuming the best in people, which is a really hard thing to do a lot of the time, especially again when, yeah, there's so much fear and trepidation right in the air, assuming the best becomes really challenging, but yeah,
Vivien
and I mean, it can be a situation like, let's say, it's in a meeting of some kind, or it's semi public, or it's in, you know, a hallway in a university. Also, what you were saying about making mistakes, which, you know, people are then hesitant, they're like, okay, I don't know what I should do, so let me just do nothing, because I might make it do it wrong, I guess. That can be very paralyzing,
Lucas Lixinski
I've learned with this specific colleague, I'm good now. But for the first three years of our being in the same, or of our knowing each other in a professional context, so when I first met this colleague, they went by he, him pronouns, and then they switched to they, them pronouns, which is, of course, totally fine, and it's in their, you know, it's their prerogative, but it took me like a good year and a half to actually get the they, them right, like every other time it would just come across as he, him, or not come across, I would actually say he, him, and and they were always so forgiving, because I would kind of, oh my God, I'm so sorry, but they were always so, you know, understanding, and you could see that they did not appreciate it, but you know, they would still, you know, I know you're trying, you know, it's an adjustment. We'll get there, and yeah,
yeah, that's nice. I mean, it's okay to kind of say that you've blundered, and you know you've blundered, and you're trying not to, but you still do. I mean, that's exactly, I guess, being being human, and not trying to just say, well, you know, you, you're still he, him to me, and I'm just gonna stick with he, him, no, that’s
yeah, and it's something that's become so another, it's not that I'm making blunders, but it's a conversation that I'm still trying to get comfortable with, which is a pronoun checks with colleagues, because I don't ask everyone for their pronoun check, someone who's very clearly cis hat, right? I just, you know, look at what they look like, and that's how I go, and for certain colleagues, especially, you know, new colleagues, like, like, can I do up like a pronoun check, and which is a really unnatural conversation to have still to me, but you know, you try and you go, and, and even for some colleagues, it's something I started doing periodically, like every couple of years, you know. Can I just check, are your pronouns still what you know I've been using, or, and, but it's, yeah, it's super unnatural to me, and I think for myself as my life, right? And, and someone who is in the alphabet soup, and, but you know, you learn and you try again, and yeah,
Vivien
yeah, that's really good, though, to kind of disarm people about. About feeling like it's a new language, and you know how you're hesitant sometimes to say something because you're like, I'm going to do this wrong, whatever language, if it's French, Spanish, Chinese, or whatever, exactly. I think, but right now this all feels very loaded, in addition, which might be a US thing, but I think the other thing that I wanted to kind of emphasize is this, the work that has been done. There are some studies about how, in at least in STEM, and maybe in your field too, how you know this is an additional burden right now to kind of, I guess. These are fields that bracket the idea that there is a social dimension and a political dimension, right. You're not supposed to, if you're a biologist or a mathematician, that's supposed to not play a role, but in fact it does, and people discount other people's expertise because they're LGBT, and I guess that just feels especially hard right now. I came across some studies on this. I don't know if you want to comment on that, but they're, you know, LGBT academics are just more likely to experience this, I guess, put downs
Lucas Lixinski
yeah, which is funny, right? Because academic knowledge, and I think that's particularly true in STEM subjects, derive a lot of their authority from this illusion of neutrality, right, but it is fundamentally an illusion, right, in the sense that we've known forever, right, that the questions you ask of the material, however much you pretend they're neutral, they are informed by your own biases and where you come from, and so there's all of that at play, but of course, when expertise in general is under attack as well by the same bigoted forces, right, or the same forces that manifests as bigotry, you kind of trying to hide and find, okay, because of it like Sophie's choice, right? You got to save one. Do we save identity or do we save the credibility of the entire knowledge enterprise?
Vivien
So true, it's so true. And I think it's a special dilemma, then, right, because you don't have recourse if somebody is criticizing you and you're talking about chemistry, but it's really on the background, it's because you're gay and they're not, and whatever they feel about you being gay, and it’s..
Lucas Lixinski
I've spoken with people who are, so I guess when you witness that being an ally is really important to kind of, I guess, hear that, and yes, or see it if you're witnessing that it's hard exactly
and again call it out in a to the possible extent in a non confrontational sort of way right because you don't want to put people in the defensive especially if people genuinely believe that they're coming to it from a quote, unquote, scientifically neutral kind of stance, say, look, you're both very qualified, very smart people, you're obviously coming from different places, so can we take a step back and figure out what those places are and why that difference is manifesting rather than being so invested in one of you being right and the other being necessarily wrong.
Vivien
Thank you. And I just wanted to pick up on that idea of, you know, what is happening now, that people need to kind of shelter in place, I guess, and hide a little bit. And you’re, you're saying, okay, that's all right to do, but also to remember, I mean, I'm in this town now where joy is allowed most of the time, but to remember that it is joyous to be LGBT, and not only a place where you have to hide and defend yourself. And you might have a phase, or you might be living in a state in the US where you have to for a while, but one day you probably will be able to not have that, right,
Lucas Lixinski
exactly, right. No, there's a saying in Portuguese, right, which is my native language, that is, it roughly translates that there's no everlasting good, no, nor never-ending evil, right? Or it's a bit redundant in the phrasing, but it's a cute play on words in actual Portuguese.
Vivien
Well, in Portuguese, please, I mean, if I do the podcast, then people. Should hear it. Let's hear, let's hear it in Portuguese. I won’t understand it.
Lucas LIxinski
"Não há mal que sempre dure, nem bem que nunca acabe." And it's this idea, right? The life moves and comes and goes, right, and there's always these cycles, and should retreat and protect yourself right as needed. Sometimes it's you need armor, sometimes you actually need a full blown closet. But I think it's also to remember that an armor can also become a straight jacket, right? And it's useful in some contexts, but it constrains your movements necessarily, and it's remembered that every night that there will be a time in which you can shed the armor and be your full-blown joyous self. So it's important to keep that memory and keep that intention that you'll get there, because you don't want to be weighed down by that armor in a way that kind of changes you forever, you know. We survive, we've always survived, and you know this too shall pass.
Vivien
That's beautiful, and I love the saying. I love the contrast of, you know, survival joy, making it work, but also acknowledging how difficult it is in those actual situations where it gets testy and uncomfortable.
Lucas Lixinski
There's another.. sorry, I'm going to give you another thing in Portuguese, maybe because I'm in Brazil. Yeah, coming to mind, but it's this poet from my, from my hometown, actually, who he missed out on being elected to, like, the Brazilian Academy of Letters, right, which is for all the major figures in literature. After he missed out on it the second time, he said he was never going to run for it again. He said he was never going to run for it again, but then he wrote this poem, the last two lines of which it's again on play on a play on words, but in the original is
Eles passarão...
Eu passarinho.
It translates as either they shall pass or they're a big bird, and then the last line is I'm a little bird, so it's they shall pass, but I'm a little bird or they're a big bird but I'm a little bird. So the play on word is, yeah, they shall pass, but you know, here I am. I'm a little bird, and I'm going to fly my own way.
Vivien
That's beautiful. It's kind of like, okay, big birds, you guys are flying around, and that is fine. I'm on the coast now, so I'm thinking of sandpipers or somebody that I some of these birds I saw this morning, ah, yes, really important to remember, it's okay to be a little bird, but in that moment it does sting, and I think that's the thing too, in those moments when you're kind of interacting with people and you are feeling like this is a put down, threatened by the big birds, right, yeah, yeah,
and they're, you know, not nice, and they're not going to change their ways necessarily. So, how do you, you know, cope? Oh, that's beautiful. So, are you Portuguese or Brazilian, or both? Or
Lucas Lixinski
I'm Brazilian.
Vivien
Ah, okay. Well, lovely. Well, enjoy one of your countries.
Lucas Lixinski
Yes.
Vivien
Thank you so much.
Lucas Lixinski
Thank you.
Vivien
And that was Conversations with scientists. Today's episode was with Lucas Lixinski, a professor at the Faculty of Law and Justice at the University of New South Wales, Sydney in Australia. The music in this podcast is Rio's Rhythm by Everett Z, licensed from artlist.io And I just wanted to say, because there's confusion about these things sometimes, nobody paid to be in this podcast, and the University of New South Wales, Sydney didn't pay for this podcast. This is independent journalism that I produce in my living room. You can find this podcast on streaming platforms. The show is called Conversations with scientists. It's on YouTube, in the channel Convos with scientists. I'm Vivien Marx. Thanks for listening.