Defining Hospitality

How do architects create airports that feel human, intuitive, and welcoming while juggling regulations, budgets, and countless stakeholders? 

In this episode, Dan Ryan sits down with John Anthal, Principal and Aviation Sector Leader at Mancini Duffy, to unpack the hidden complexity of airport design, the evolving meaning of hospitality in aviation, and how leadership, technology, and culture shape the future of large-scale infrastructure.

John pulls back the curtain on what it really takes to design terminals for millions of travelers, from Lufthansa’s JFK lounge to major Port Authority projects, while keeping the end user at the center. They explore human-scale design in massive public spaces, the tension between grand architecture and comfort, how AI and new tools are transforming the studio, and why empowering young designers leads to the most innovative ideas. This is a deep dive into architecture, hospitality, leadership, and the future of air travel, grounded in real-world lessons from one of the industry’s most experienced aviation designers.

Takeaways:
  • Airport projects are full of regulations, politics, and competing priorities but success hinges on never losing sight of the end user. Human-scale touches and thoughtful amenities transform overwhelming spaces into welcoming ones.
  • Creating comfort in aviation means understanding diverse travelers and reinforcing brand through design. Small cultural cues, like Lufthansa’s pickle bar, build familiarity and ease.
  • U.S. airports often struggle with outdated systems and tight sites. Long project timelines require forward-thinking, adaptable planning that anticipates future technologies and growth.
  • Entrepreneurial thinking drives new opportunities. Employees are encouraged to pitch new business ideas and build new verticals, creating a culture where initiative is celebrated.
  • Technology is an enabler, not a replacement. AI tools and modern platforms like Revit enhance creativity and efficiency, helping teams visualize ideas faster and communicate them more powerfully.

Quote of the Show:
“Learning more from other clients helps us solve problems for our existing clients in ways we hadn’t thought about before. It’s about a diversity of knowledge in a niche market.” - John Anthal


Links:

Shout Outs:

🏨✨ Defining Hospitality is Sponsored by Berman Falk https://www.bermanfalk.com/ - Check out their impact page! 🌍🌱 https://www.bermanfalk.com/impact/ 

Ways to Tune In: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Gabby Aloisi

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - John Anthal
===

John Anthal: [00:00:00] we might know the technical ins and outs and everything about how to handle a project, but when you get somebody right outta school

who's energized ideas,

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

John Anthal: Let them talk,

engage with them, let

them lead the

discussion. you never know what might come out of it. Um, allowing, everybody thinks the ladder, you know, the corporate ladder is, is like you gotta. Make sure you're always above somebody else, but I find that if you're empowering the people that you're working with, it's, it's not gonna overshadow you. It's not something to be afraid of. It's something to embrace. Let pull them up with you. them grow

and their

growth is

gonna help your growth,

and it's, it's

Dan Ryan: Yeah,

John Anthal: always.

Intro: What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means [00:01:00] in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

Sponsor: This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is an experienced architect with a specific niche in aviation design. He led the project of Lufthansa's 38,000 square foot JFK lounge, and he's completed over 100 projects with the New York New Jersey Port Authority. Over the past 10 years, he's built Mancini Duffy's Aviation practice from the ground up.

He's a principal and aviation's sector leader at Mancini Duffy. Ladies and gentlemen. John an welcome, John.

John Anthal: Hi. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Dan Ryan: I'm happy to have you here. And it's also just pretty cool that one of my first episodes out of the gate was with Christian, uh, Giardano, who [00:02:00] is the CEO. Is that his title now, CEO

John Anthal: president. He's

Dan Ryan: oh,

John Anthal: of.

Dan Ryan: president of your firm and he's a wears black capes?

Um, not really. That was just the title we put of the podcast, not all, or. I think it was not all architects or many architects were black capes. I don't remember. But it was really cool. And he, I've known him for a really long time through Entrepreneurs Organization and we just have like a, a shared passion for entrepreneurism.

And it's actually really awesome that he acquired Mancini Duffy, which is over a hundred and something years old, as someone who was working there. And I just marvel at stories like that and what it showed me, and a lot of our listeners, um. That constraints are there, but it really takes a lot of creativity to see like how you can overcome certain things and, and if you have a vision, almost anything is possible.

Right?

John Anthal: Absolutely.

Dan Ryan: And I

John Anthal: the firm that [00:03:00] way, you know, encourages all of his employees to. Find something that interests them and, and approach about it. And, and we find ways to have the firm as a whole kind of support those efforts. And sometimes it leads to things like it did with our aviation sector and you know, sometimes it's end, but it's always interesting and.

Dan Ryan: when I was just rereading the intro to make sure it all sounded okay, ICE had 50 aviation projects with New York, New Jersey Port Authority mistake on my end, and you told me it was a hundred.

John Anthal: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: when you, when I think about constraints. I think about the New York, New Jersey Port Authority and building airports in New York City or really anywhere around the globe when you have all of the stakeholders from just local governments, security, private airlines, customers.

I'm probably missing 20 other stakeholders that are involved. Um, and I think of constraints. It's just freaking mind blowing, and I'm glad that there are. So many [00:04:00] people that are not like me that excel at doing that because everyone has their, can find their own niche and way and it just sounds so herculean and so difficult, but you love it.

So it's like we have another puzzle master on and I'm very, I'm very intrigued by that. Um.

John Anthal: I, I, really do enjoy the challenge of, of having that many pieces. Um, so no matter what project you're working on, it could be something incredibly simple, uh, if it was outside of the airport. But, but when you're engaged in a watch like that, that that has constantly moving pieces and, and other concerns that you have to be aware of, uh, it, it really ups the ante and, and makes those projects even more intense and, and intricate.

So,

yeah. And it also can make a de many, many detours happen to try and placate or make all of these other stakeholders happy. Which could cause you to lose sight of the traveler or the customer or the [00:05:00] guest. Right. And that's a great segue into how do you define hospitality and how do you not lose sight of who you're trying to make?

Dan Ryan: Feel comfortable with all of these other stakeholders and regulations and byzantine Leviathan structures to get an airport open in a major metropolitan area.

John Anthal: so I guess for me, uh, hospitality is kind of a, a tricky thing to answer. Uh, I, I think I have to engage with a lot of different stakeholders, as you mentioned, and each of them has their own idea of what aviation hospitality looks like, right? It's very passenger experience driven. Um, and so. We've gotta be nimble about that.

We can't have our own impressions of what that is and, and impose it on somebody else. We've gotta understand what the airline is looking to do, how they're looking to make the, the passenger feel, and then find ways to have the architecture and the, the, the design reflect, uh, that, that intention. so for me it's a, it's about understanding hospitality means, like [00:06:00] understanding the, the person you're trying to engage with and, and then making them ultimately feel comforted.

Dan Ryan: And I know I led with, um, the Lufthansa new lounge at JFK. I also think about, and you're doing something totally right, because if you asked me five years ago

that if I could ever put the sentence together that LaGuardia Airport is one of the nicest airports in the country, I think that would be an impossibility. So, and you worked on that, right? So, so something is working and what do you think? Are the biggest impediments to you in dealing with all these rules, regulations, jurisdictions, towards really creating a space and a sense of calm for that traveler that's going through it?

John Anthal: Uh, so I, I think there's two things I guess that we could look at, right? There's the actual. Act of [00:07:00] getting it completed, right? Designing it and, and coordinating the construction and, and trying to work with people on that. Um, and, and I think the, the impediments there are that everybody's kind of got the blinders on, right?

They have their portion of work, uh, and you've gotta find a way to engage with them, get them to tell you what their drivers are for their project, and then see where the overlap is so that you're not stepping on each other's toes or accidentally. somebody else's progress. so that, that's the first part.

The, the second part is about like, not forgetting the traveler, right? Um, that, that, all comes down to the experience from the time you get dropped off at the front gate to the time you de, you know, deplaning, uh, when you land at your destination. And so. The airlines have to think about what the facility is that they only have a partial piece of control over. Uh, they have to think about what kind of amenities are gonna be inside of that. They're gonna have to think about what does the gate and the holding room situation look like? They're gonna have to think about what the plane feels like, right? Like the plane itself has to be [00:08:00] designed, the cabin and the, and the amenities there. And so it's a step-by-step process that has to be universally fit. That's why I think it's important that the brand itself develops an identity of what their hospitality looks like. And then ultimately customers are gonna choose the brand that best fits what they feel as hospitality.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: so it, it, it is an investigation in, you know, I guess public opinion really.

Dan Ryan: And then as you, if you think about a place like JFK for instance, like LaGuardia is a bit more regional. You're not, it's, I don't know how many internationally, maybe Canada, maybe Mexico, but maybe some islands

John Anthal: Mm.

Dan Ryan: the Caribbean. But if you think of JFK or Newark, um, who also have purview over, uh, uh, because that's New York, New Jersey Port Authority, um.

You have European Airlines, you have American Airlines, you have Asian airlines, you have African Airlines.

John Anthal: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: I think you have everything except Antarctic because they don't really have any airlines. But as a, as a [00:09:00] coming up with the programming for each of these projects that you work on within these behemoth airports, how do you get that guest experience goal lined out at the beginning with each of these?

Culturally very different clients because it's not just a client of the airline that you're building for, it's also their traveler. So like how do you parse all of that? And then also make sure that you're keeping in mind that traveler

John Anthal: So I think, I think the airlines themselves do a, do a really good job of assessing what they want their experience to look like, and

Dan Ryan: I.

John Anthal: the customer will make that choice. Right? Um, so like you said, culturally they might be influenced, um, you know, if there's, it could be really simple things. I'll use an example.

Uh, for Lufthansa, they, they integrated a, a, a pickle bar. Uh, it, it's, it's kind of silly, but, but, um, you know, pickles were really integral to the German cuisine. They wanted to kind of accentuate [00:10:00] something that was culturally relevant to them. And so that was a big thing we had to design around, right? But that was a strategic choice.

They wanted people when they're flying Lufthansa, to be reminded cultural implications of flying Lufthansa, uh, in a very subtle, and, and I think, you know, kind of nice way, um, all airlines are doing this in one way or another. And I think, uh, it's our job as the architect to kind of interpret what their brand and their, their efforts want to be, and then help guide them to how architecture might support those ideas.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: and, and that's really where the bridge becomes, um, you know, the, the formal architecture

Dan Ryan: I love pickles. I love Germany. You did? Did you do any Air Canada lounges?

John Anthal: Uh, not yet, but if they're listening.

Dan Ryan: Okay, good. Well, when you do that, please ask them why and what the, the cultural connection is to really smelly hard-boiled eggs at four 30 in the morning or five 30 in the morning when they open. 'cause that is like my experience of going through the Air Canada lounge.

I don't know what's up with the hard boiled [00:11:00] eggs. Um.

John Anthal: like that, that right there is like a really important thing that I think the airlines would love to hear. You know, you, you had one experience with a hard

boiled egg

Dan Ryan: Oh no, it's been many experiences and I think I actually even wrote a thoughtful response to them in their like, feed. Do you have any feedback?

John Anthal: Yeah,

Dan Ryan: the hard boiled eggs are still there.

John Anthal: see, well, I think, I think they're making a choice and I, I guess you're gonna have to make a choice as well. Like what if you don't find that the, that customer experience suits you? there are other airlines that may, might be better suited for you.

Dan Ryan: True. Um, so in that idea that travel is experiential and tailored to the airline, the customer, the traveler,

what do you think as you look at not just New York, New Jersey Port Authority, but other airport complexes, what do you think is missed or most often missed in. I guess what would it be like public design or design of public terminals, airport [00:12:00] terminals, or lounges today?

What do, you think is the big miss from your opinion?

John Anthal: I think, um,

Dan Ryan: Aside from the hard boiled eggs?

John Anthal: aside from the hard boiled eggs, I, I would say that, uh, the majority of

terminals Are, not necessarily warm. they make an effort to use warm materials sometimes. but I, but I think that by virtue of their scale, right, their size alone kind of makes them a little bit cold. Uh, and I think bringing the human scale down a little bit internally, like inside the building might actually be more helpful. we make these grand terminals with 60 foot soaring ceilings and it's, you know, wonderful. but you come in there and if you're traveling alone, you're like, wow, like this is kind of sterile. Uh, I to see the scale of things brought down a little bit, and not necessarily in terms of what you can process, but the physical scale of things be brought

down to. the human standard

Dan Ryan: I struggle with that one because I think we're in [00:13:00] this age of overcorrection, and when I say I do, it's me, my own personal thing. 'cause I go back to. The LaGuardia instance and remember eight or nine foot high ceilings in some of the terminals. So very human scale with, but I could see the brown water stained disgusting tiles and the water hose coming out of it into a bucket.

We all remember walking past that. So to me, I feel like scale hides a lot of the unpleasantness

John Anthal: It does.

Dan Ryan: of tra of what you make ex experience in a travel, in in travel.

John Anthal: I, I think it does, but what you're describing is the issue of quality, not scale.

Dan Ryan: Ah

John Anthal: I would challenge, you know, maybe the, the industry as a whole, I would love to see more of an effort put toward craft,

Dan Ryan: hmm.

John Anthal: For whether it be on the design side or on the construction side,

uh,

Dan Ryan: maintenance.

John Anthal: Or maintenance even.

Dan Ryan: Yeah,

John Anthal: of course. Uh, you know, and it's sort of like a full circle. [00:14:00] in what we're doing, right? We're creating something that's gonna be experienced by hundreds of thousands of people, you know, every, every day. we've gotta make it nice enough people want to respect it. When something is grandiose, they feel like it's not, there isn't, it's not relatable, Uh, but I feel like if it's, um, if it's elo eloquently done and really. Pristine people tend to respect it

Dan Ryan: And maybe on the human scale, maybe that's the opportunity that the lounges offer, right? Because you're, you're going from this large scale, enormous building, and then you're, you're kind of cradled into something that should be relaxing and anxiety reducing. Um. Yeah, maybe that's what it's, I also, just going back to LaGuardia, I was, I got off a flight and then I was going into the restroom and there was two hand trucks, like big hand trucks that you would see sky caps maybe have

full of real orchids that they were [00:15:00] distributing through all the bathrooms.

I was like, that is amazing.

And I, I'm glad that they have that budget for that, but it's like,

John Anthal: it's a nice human touch. Right?

That's

a scale

thing.

Dan Ryan: yes, it, it makes it more human. Um. If you were to look at the airport, I guess either lounge or actual airport throughout the United States or the world, is there one in your mind that needs so much help and is such a challenge, but you would love

the opportunity to work on it?

John Anthal: Um, yeah. All right. Let's start locally. Uh, Newark's terminal B. Right. It's an international terminal. It's, it, it is slated to, you know, be kind of next.

Um. That one, that one's in desperate

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: Uh, it

it kind of reminds me a lot

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

John Anthal: in, in many ways.

Um, I would, I would love to have a crack at that just because locally it's important to me, right.

I'm, [00:16:00] I'm, I'm a Jersey guy. I would love to, to be involved with something at Newark. Um, and I also think that it, it would be kind of a point of pride, uh, you know. For me that, that, that particular terminal, um, it's the gateway

for a

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: It's an

international terminal.

Uh, you've got lots of people coming in.

It would be, uh, it would be great to work on that

one.

Dan Ryan: And I think terminal A there has really u

upped The

ante for the whole airport as well.

John Anthal: Yeah, it certainly has. Right. The quality of that is, is great. Uh, I think, you know, Grimshaw was the, the base architect. They, they looked, they did a great job on the

design. Um, and then the

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: it was

wonderful as well.

Dan Ryan: One of the things I can't imagine as far as programming out a, uh, an airport renovation from like a master planned experience is every project, as we all know, you deal with cost, you deal with time or budget, time and quality, and then sometimes on the schedule side, like for instance.

The Olympics, the [00:17:00] World Cup, the something is big that's coming, um, and they are driving everything and sacrificing quality and cost often to make that happen. What are some big experiences that you could share where you really have to look at that three-legged stool? As a constraint and, and get all of those different parties to say, Hey, let's, let's

chill on this one aspect and

let's just do it, right?

John Anthal: I, I don't, I'm not gonna use any names, but I did, I did work on a lounge where to a point where we, we realized we were gonna have to make a lot of sacrifices. Uh, there were design things

that were

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

John Anthal: out.

Uh, there were materials that were gonna maybe not fit the need, but we're gonna meet the schedule. Uh, and, and ultimately we weren't gonna meet the deadline that. entity wanted us to meet, um, as a whole, right? The contractor just couldn't make the mark. We, [00:18:00] the design teams, uh, on the inside of the, the airline couldn't make decisions fast enough. there just needed to be more time. And we all got in a room, we had a conversation and said, guys, we can rush through this and it's gonna be completed when you want it, but it's probably not gonna be exactly what you'd like if you give us one more month. can rally the troops, we can get the costs where they need to be and get the quality where they need to be. ultimately, they realized that's what they wanted we moved forward. And at the end they were like, this was the best decision. It was a little slap on the wrist in the beginning, but at the end, everybody who was upset that we moved the schedule was glad that we did it.

Dan Ryan: But I think it's also really important to take that long view sometimes because whatever the short term goal is, however important these infrastructure projects are around for like 50 or a hundred years. I don't know how long an airport lasts for, but it just seems to me that these are gonna be enduring multi-generational spaces.

John Anthal: Yeah. No, [00:19:00] they, they are, and, and to me, I would, I would love to see us take a little bit extra time to just. Think about the right way to do something. And sometimes we, I understand the schedule is important and, and that's where we need to go. Um, and ultimately, if that's what the client asks, like, Hey, stick to the schedule, we will find a way. Um, but oftentimes I feel that people are rushed, uh, both in decision making, in contracts, in, you know, uh, design overall. And, and it leads to a, uh, and, you know, a lesser product.

Dan Ryan: One of the things I am fascinated by, or one of the airports, I've always just.

Enjoyed and love is Hong Kong, and one of the things that I love about it is all of the infrastructure, whether it's road or rail or ferry, that lead to it all just work. And when you come off of a plane, there's like a seamless decision tree of.

Ferry to mainland China or into Hong Kong or to Cal or Calhoun maybe. I think you can even get to Macau from there. [00:20:00] There's tr, there's like subway trains that actually connect and you don't have to get off and get in this intermediary air train situation. Is that just because of like, why can't that happen in the New York area?

That, that's like my big question. It's like, oh, it's almost just such a.

An, embarrassment.

John Anthal: it's great it's great planning, right?

Uh, I think, I

think, um, at

least all talk about the new market, right? I feel, I feel like we. As,

uh,

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

John Anthal: grew incredibly

fast and so we made our infrastructure,

and it suited us at the

time, but it

but it immediately became outdated, uh, as, as things began to expand. and it sort of pigeonholed us, right? The, the land is constrained physically by water. And so, so a lot of our ports and a lot of the, the areas where we've got, you know, um, uh, airport terminals set up, they just have nowhere to go. And so we've gotta find workarounds and everything [00:21:00] is, uh, know, a makeshift

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: for how we can make that experience work it's not the best experience,

it's

just a passable one.

So the challenge for, I think all of the designers in the industry now are when we're doing these terminal, you know, redevelopment projects. Make the most of it. And I do think that the port, the Port Authority doing that now, you know, they, they've really taken to heart what people have complained about and they're trying to find ways to make

those

systems, like you're talking about infrastructures,

um,

seamless.

Dan Ryan: Oh, that's

in infrastructure. Tie-in. Yes.

That's what I want. It should be so much easier to get from Penn Station to Grand Central and go from Newark to wherever, like,

and that's a huge investment. And I just think the appetite to do it isn't there. And I, it also reminds me of terminal, we were talking about terminal A at Newark.

I don't know if you've ever parked a Terminal A and gone over the bridge into the terminal. There's like, it's a brand new, beautiful terminal, and I just don't [00:22:00] understand why there's this like, moving sidewalk from the, you go from the, from the, uh, garage. You have to walk halfway across the air bridge and then the moving sidewalk starts.

I was like, what budget call was that? That they said, oh yeah, we're only gonna make it, we're only gonna make the sidewalk go halfway. I just hope that that will finish it. But that's like case in point of, I think the difficulty of doing stuff in the in

the United States and specifically the New York, New Jersey area.

John Anthal: Yeah, no, I, I, I agree with you. It's difficult. Um, you. know, you don't always have the full story. Uh, obviously a lot of design decisions are made behind closed doors or, you know, part of the project, and, and it never gets fully publicized. But, uh, there are some head scratchers. You kind of walk around the terminal and you're like, why?

I wonder why they did this. What, why, why is this here? Um, it, it, it's part of the nature, right? There's so many stakeholders and they all are moving in

different

directions, and sometimes this is

just what happens when you

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

John Anthal: something that.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. and, and also just as far as I know, like [00:23:00] there's the whole world of travel, but for the New York, New Jersey, tri-state area and all the airports that are there, the water presents a really incredible op opportunity, I think, to create those infrastructure tie-ins. I just don't know why it hasn't hap, like if you were to Gander, why, like, why aren't there more fairy options?

John Anthal: To be honest, I, I, I wouldn't even know where to start. Uh, I, I mean, obviously the ferry runs, you know, pretty smoothly. I would say, uh, I guess it, it's about desirability of where it would tie in, right? Let's say you land in Newark and you wanna take the ferry. Where gonna, around Manhattan to Brooklyn, like, is that

is that path you envision for

smooth sailing?

Dan Ryan: Yeah, Newark might not be the best example. I'm thinking more like that LaGuardia area because it's just like, you know, you have the east river, you got the sound, you got everything there. I think that there could be a lot of options, but we're not gonna solve for that Now, um, as, as, as you've seen, um, [00:24:00] aviation just change in your tenure and the needs, uh, and the, and just the increase of throughput through all of the airports, what do you think.

What does Mancini Duffy think that air travel will look like 10 years in the future if we're building these huge infrastructure pieces that to last 50 years,

surely there's gotta be some future visioning.

John Anthal: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I mean there's, we can go crazy, right? And start thinking about some of the, um, self-driving individualized units

and things like that.

Um, and I

think, I think that's kind of on the

periphery

at the moment. Um, so many of These These large scale projects have a runway that's, you know, decades long.

They're being thought about well before some of the technology gets developed that ultimately will be around, simultaneously with the completion of the project. And so, so that alone poses a challenge for being outdated at opening, right? I, I mean, these, these projects start talking, you know, 10, 15 years in advance, [00:25:00] if not more. and that

planning

aspect always playing

catch up. So it's, it's what you can

do, um,

to

make up that ground, I think, over the process, which adds another further layer of complication. You know, you've got all these stakeholders and, and now you're gonna change what you've told them you wanna do because you

have a new

idea that that has to stop at

some point.

Dan Ryan: Yeah,

John Anthal: yeah, it

becomes very

challenging.

Dan Ryan: and then I shared my experience of just being blown away by how seamless the Hong Kong airport situation is. And that's, I don't know, that's been around for 20 I. 25 years, I think. I don't remember when it opened, but it was probably early two thousands, maybe late nineties. Um, as you go around the United States or globally, is there a city or terminal?

It doesn't have to be an airport terminal that you've experienced old or new and just been like, wow, they got this right. this is incredible.

John Anthal: Uh, I'm gonna go go with

[00:26:00] the subway system in Washington,

dc

Dan Ryan: Ooh. I love that one.

It's beautiful.

John Anthal: I, yeah,

I, I mean, first off, It's it's

exquisitely beautiful,

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

John Anthal: uh,

the, the, the, design of the

stations

is, is awesome. And I think the connectivity that's allowed through it is, um. Interesting, right? Like you can kind of jump around between lines to get different ways and, it's, it's kind of, I think it's really well

thought out,

expanse.

Dan Ryan: it is like super modern and, um, I, do you know who the architect was at on that? Oh, it was sarin. Oh my God. Huh. That makes sense. Uh, yeah. I love it. I love the sound of it. I, one of my favorite t-shirts when I was a kid was a map of the Washington, DC subway system, and I just, so whenever I meet someone from Virginia, Maryland or DC I'm always like, oh, red line, yellow line.

John Anthal: my,

my

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

John Anthal: fun

Dan Ryan: I love that.

John Anthal: because I, I,

I love subway, transit and metros and, and underground, uh, [00:27:00] transit systems. So whatever city I go to, I

normally like take a

day and I just kind of

ride. And

just to see how it

Dan Ryan: Oh wow.

John Anthal: I, I, find it really interesting.

Dan Ryan: And not just, okay, so when you're doing that, I assume you're not just, you're marveling at just the infrastructure, the function,

the design of it, but also the people. Right? So

what. What have you noticed about watching people through all these infrastructure transit projects of over your 20 year, 20 plus year career?

John Anthal: in the United States, when you look around, most people are.

Not

happy to be on public transit.

Uh, if

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: city, uh,

I'll, I'll

use, I'll use Stockholm for instance. Um, I think that

experience, my personal experience

was that people were

always

talking,

Dan Ryan: I.

John Anthal: there

was conversation, there

was frivolity, there was Like people didn't just treat the transit experience as like, I'm alone and I'm going to, you know, I'm just trying to get where I'm going. It was. [00:28:00] Part of some other thing they were doing, but it was, it didn't stop them from enjoying life. know, they didn't see it as a, a hindrance or, or something disgusting that they had to do as I think a lot of New Yorkers might feel about the subway. they, at least in my opinion, didn't seem threatened or scared of anything. Right. Like it was a comfortable experience. I mean, they have working windows and, you know, things like that on the cars. Like that's that's human touch.

And I

think that's, uh, that's really evident in

the

European

European design.

Dan Ryan: And aside from how people and infrastructure and modes of transportation change over the years, um, if I remember back when I was talking to Christian. I feel like, and you can tell me if this is true, 'cause I think you have firsthand knowledge of this. One of his big initiatives as he acquired Mancini Duffy was to convert everything from AutoCAD to Revit.

John Anthal: That Is correct.

Dan Ryan: And

perhaps you were the champion of doing that transformation

John Anthal: in the in the beginning, [00:29:00] yes. Since, since then, others have

picked up the mantle, but yes,

I was

the, the

first,

Dan Ryan: That was, so Revit is leaps and bounds of innovation above

AutoCAD. Correct.

And just just from the entire building set and being able to have everyone go in and make sure every connector and pipe, and not just beams, but everything fits together holistically. And you can come up with a, a really sound bid set for everyone that's kind of contributing to the project, potentially

with the advent of ar, uh, not ar, vr, uh.

Artificial intelligence. The other a, um, what are the, what are the other kind of challenges or opportunities that you're seeing with this new artificial intelligence coming in and as far as making you and all of your teams better, more efficient and kind of more

groundbreaking in how you approach design?

John Anthal: Sure. Uh, so I, I think it's a, it's definitely a benefit. [00:30:00] I know a lot of people feel, um, that it's doing shoddy work or that it's gonna put people out of work. I, I think that it's all in how you are able to use it. So for, for us, one of the, I'll just give an example. One of the things that we're learning to do is, uh, use our own AI engines to help generate conceptual imagery that we wanna show to a client in order to get buy-in on an idea. So it's not something that we would show, like, this is what your final product is. It's something that, you know, if we're trying to get a client to choose between three things, we would generate an image using ai. Um, and then we would show them those three images instead of having to search for endless hours on the internet, trying to find something that comes close to what we wanna show them. Right. And we can just curate an image and then elicit responses from them to understand what they're looking for way faster than we used to be able to do. So,

yeah, I think

it's, I think it's a benefit And.

it's

just how you

use it.

Dan Ryan: thinking about [00:31:00]

technology and also just, not just technology, but how you've built the aviation practice within Mancini, Duffy, from the ground up,

obviously with a team and

right, it, it takes a village,

but

within, under the ages of what Mancini Duffy is all about, how do you. Define what the North star of the aviation practice within Mancini Duffy is like, how have you, how has that evolved?

John Anthal: Okay. Uh, so I think, I think initially, um, I was just like interested in getting more work. I didn't care what it was. I was like, I need, I need, I need to get more involved. 'cause I was, I was really enthused by and energized by, uh, working in the airport. Uh, as think time has kind of gone on, uh, I would say that now I'm really interested in meeting more diverse clients because. Doing the same thing for the same person over again is, is But [00:32:00] learning more from other clients then helps us solve problems for our existing clients in ways that maybe we hadn't thought about before. So it's about a diversity of knowledge in a niche market. Right. And I feel like the more people we get to know, the more. Uh, different, like you said, culturally significant, uh, airlines, um, you know, regionally applicable airlines. Like any, anything that's gonna add a new layer of nuance to the design

process,

if we can get involved in it, it's gonna make

us better.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: so, I

think, I think that's

really what's driving projects that we'd like to

select to take off.

Dan Ryan: And can you share a recent example of, right, you're on this major infrastructure project or even just a lounge with, within a major infrastructure project. You've been planning it for years and years. You're underway. You start a new one, you learn, oh, wow, I didn't know that that technology, that API interface, that whatever, whatever, whatever. [00:33:00] Could be brought over here. What's a, what's a recent one that comes to mind that maybe changed the outcome of something that was already well underway?

John Anthal: Uh, sure. So we, we actually currently have two projects in the same terminal that's under construction right now. Both lounges, uh, two very different airlines, very different scales. Um, and, and we realized that there were gonna be changes to how the Port Authority was gonna work on something

through one project. Uh, and it

had to do with

like the

Dan Ryan: Boy,

John Anthal: and

how, how, you

know, food

service was handled

and Right. And

so bureaucracy.

Right.

Dan Ryan: for those of you that can't see, I'm just shaking my head right now because I can't imagine dealing with all of this. But you know,

John Anthal: But I think

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

John Anthal: as I've been, I guess arguing for, since the call, the

start of the call, human touch is important. And so we found. Uh, that on this one project we were gonna get some answers and it was through working with the resident engineer's office and the folks at the Port [00:34:00] Authority to hash out the right way to treat the solution. And then we took that, went to our other client, said, Hey, this is what we've learned on this other thing. Let's get together with those folks and talk it through. And then we brought the thing full circle. We were able to have a kind of like a tri-party discussion between. All the clients and, and the Port Authority and come to a resolution about how we need to treat something. And then we distributed that knowledge to all of our teams for all of our projects with the port of which right now I think we probably have 40 active projects with the Port Authority. So everybody kind of got this dissemination of knowledge, all because we ran into one problem on one project and then it solved it

you know, moving forward for

everybody

else.

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Dan Ryan: I mostly work in hotels. Actually, all I do is work in hotels and projects take a while, but you definitely know when done is done.

How do you know in an airport

when done is done? Like is your contract over or do they keep you on retainer to deal with new? I don't know. Um, changes in

from the f not the FDA.

What is that? The.

John Anthal: A.

Dan Ryan: FAA, oh my god, my brain today with new changes from the FA, a new changes from, I don't know, Boeing. How did, like, oh, there's a new airplane coming out. How we gotta do a double decker off, off ramp, or gangway from the plane? Did, did they just plug you into those old projects and is that like an ad service or is it a whole new thing?

I don't know, bid process that you have to get in on. Obviously they, I would assume they'd want you because you have the institutional knowledge of all [00:36:00] the, the bits and bobs, and you can make everything tick and tie out. But how long is a typical airport project

and how do you know when you're done?

John Anthal: So, uh, I guess like, like I said, lounges are kind of, uh, one of our main components of our business. So, uh, a lounge can take, you know, like eight and 10 months for a design and then another, we'll call it eight to 12 months for construction, depending on, you know, where your, what the scale and scope. So it, it is, it is a good, good long while, year and a half to two years, somewhere in there. Uh, you know, give or take, uh. There are a lot of day two items that kind of crop up and, and being involved and wanting to be re-involved when new things pop up. Uh, all comes down to trust, right? If you've executed the job well and you have serviced the client, um, you know, with care and, and attention, are when something new pops up, they're gonna go right to you, just because they know that you're gonna do it and you're gonna do it well. Um, sometimes projects get bumpy, [00:37:00] it takes a little extra convincing. There might be a bid process if they wanna fold you back in. Uh, but luckily for us, never really the case. We, we, we do try and make all of our

clients

feel like we've, we've given our a thousand percent to them.

So I think, it really

comes down

to and place. It, it, it, it depends on who's still there, right? 'cause they are long projects. The person that you worked with might be off boarded and move on something new, and then a new local person comes in. yeah, it's, it's,

really

about just do the best you

can,

service them well, and

hopefully

they call you.

Dan Ryan: Hmm. Cool. And then Mancini Duffy, obviously it's been around for 105, 10 something more than more. More fingers and toes than I have to count. Um, what are the what, I know you have the hospitality vertical, you have aviation. What are all the verticals within Mancini Duffy and how did tho all of those verticals interact with each other?[00:38:00]

Through the cycles of, through the credit cycle or that exist in, in just the economy from boom to bust to everything in there. Like are there, are there non-correlated verticals? Like is there a theory behind how you've,

how you guys have structured

John Anthal: There

is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so. A lot of, I think A

lot of firms tend to structure their teams based on ex, you know, the, the, the sector that they're in. Right? They would've an aviation team and it's only aviation people and that's it. And they don't work on anything else. Um, the way that we've kind of structured things is that we have all, all of our studios and they, they are not tied to a specific sector. So people can work on a restaurant one day, they could work on a school the next day

they could work

on something with me in an airport, you know, the day after

that.

Dan Ryan: But they like working with you the best internally.

John Anthal: Of

Dan Ryan: Of course, yes,

John Anthal: I'm awesome and that's wonderful.

Dan Ryan: because US Jersey Boys, everyone likes working with the Jersey guys.

John Anthal: That's right. So, um, so what we do is we take people like myself, uh, who are sector [00:39:00] leaders. And we kind

of

work horizontally

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: all

the studios.

so whoever has a project in, in a

specific studio,

we would work with them. are key members who like to work on specific things. So I have like a, a core group of folks that do a lot of aviation work with me. Um, and they're typically

ones leading the projects.

Dan Ryan: Other masochists, fellow masochists

John Anthal: fellow masochist?

Dan Ryan: puzzle masters. There we go.

John Anthal: probably the better

term. Right?

Dan Ryan: I.

John Anthal: And then, uh,

all all of the other

folks that jump onto the project might not be aviation experts,

but

they wanna get experience in it or they find the project interesting. Um, and so that allows us to be nimble, as you said, with, uh, you know, things kind of fluctuating in the economy and, and boom and bust in different markets. Uh,

it it

allows

Dan Ryan: Hmm,

John Anthal: to

Dan Ryan: and I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Actually before I go out on the limb, what are the other verticals? So I assume there's like commercial office, there's probably aviation, hospitality. What are the other ones?

John Anthal: Uh, so [00:40:00] we do, uh, there, there's a bunch of them. We, we do life, uh,

life

sciences,

we do healthcare, we do education, we do multifamily

Dan Ryan: And life sciences might be,

life sciences might be like, uh,

I don't know, like university.

John Anthal: laboratories. Could be.

Yeah. Yeah. In which case we'd have two verticals kind of crossing. Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Or labs.

Okay. Or it could be labs or, okay. I'm sorry. And I didn't mean to cut you off. So

education, did you say,

John Anthal: Yeah. We, we do schoolwork, um, you know, both higher and, and, and lower education. Um, we do restaurants and food and beverage. Uh, we do, retail.

Dan Ryan: oh, really?

John Anthal: we even

Dan Ryan: Is

John Anthal: you know, uh, single family homes.

so

Dan Ryan: that, has that been a, is that a newer one?

John Anthal: It's a newer tract. Yeah. Yeah. started

that through our, our

Dan Ryan: Cool.

John Anthal: Um,

lots

of residential building

going on down in Florida.

Um, and so, so most of that's

run out of there.

Dan Ryan: Alright. and then how many people work at the firm?

John Anthal: Uh, so

I think right now we're

somewhere around 160.

Dan Ryan: Wow. And then offices in New [00:41:00] York, I,

New York, Florida, where else?

John Anthal: Yeah. So we have, uh, our headquarters in is in

Manhattan. We have two offices in New Jersey.

We have two offices in Florida.

We have an office in

Phoenix and an

office in Seattle.

Dan Ryan: No kidding. Okay, cool. And then, so the reason why I was asking for all the different verticals, I'm just curious if is there ever as a project kicks off this hospitality lens that each of the verticals might look through? I'm obviously, I'm biased because I talk about hospitality all the time, but I just find that if people take a pause and think about the human, obviously every architect's dealing with the human experience and humans going through.

The buildings that they're creating. But do you think about it at that more at the, at the hospitality level for each of the projects?

John Anthal: Yeah, no,

absolutely.

Dan Ryan: how do, how do you do that?

John Anthal: so I think, I think when we begin to design something, obviously a client's gonna have, uh, a programmatic list. You know, like these are the hard requirements and it's just data, right? And I'm gonna need X amount of offices or classrooms or [00:42:00] whatever. but ultimately it comes down to to figure out how a person's gonna interact with that space. An office is an office is an office until it's not an office. And you've gotta figure out what makes it not an office and what makes it an office, and what makes it a usable office versus an uncomfortable office. and then tying all of those things together so that a person, whoever the end user's going

to be, feels

comforted, wants

Dan Ryan: And then

John Anthal: be where you design.

Dan Ryan: And then,

you know, I, I just, so I'm fascinated by this because with all those different silos, projects. Especially these commercial projects, they tend to be lumpy as far as when they come in, right? You get a new airport, a new lounge, a new office building, a new school,

John Anthal: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: And, and it's hard to kind of plot them and manage your teams and people.

It's a, it's a real, it's a puzzle in and of itself. And then if you can, time it to be

non-correlated as far as where we are in the [00:43:00] economic cycle. Like that's the dream state. How as, as a. As a group of leaders within the company, how often are you, are you meeting and, and discussing like what's coming down the pipe or, or pipeline so that you can kind of be more strategic and not as reactive to where we are in a cycle because architecture is real and is really affected by that credit cycle and where we are in it.

John Anthal: no. it

it is and, and things do come in, fits and starts. Uh, so we, we meet weekly. Um, the, all the studio directors kind of come together. Uh, we talk about what projects are, you know, on deck, what we're working on currently, how we can maneuver staff if something got delayed or something is going on pause or something just got brought back. And, and you gotta stay on top of it. It

is a constant,

reallocation,

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: process.

Dan Ryan: And then

if you think about

the [00:44:00] changes that you've seen, because when did you start there?

John Anthal: Uh, I've been there for 11.

years now.

Dan Ryan: 11. Okay. So

how far post acquisition from C from Christian

John Anthal: I was one of his

first hires, I

think

Dan Ryan: first hires? So you basically came in

as. The a hundred year old company did things their way for a hundred years, or I'm sure it changed obviously throughout that time.

But what are some of the biggest changes

that you've seen from being one of the first hires to Christian putting on his black cape

and kind of

John Anthal: yeah.

Dan Ryan: the course forward?

Aside from Revit conversion?

John Anthal: I mean, the size, the

size

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

John Anthal: Right. Uh, when, when I

first

started, we were, we were, just an office in New York and we were probably about 40 people at that point. Um, you know, a little bit smaller, uh, you know, mid, I guess it's considered a mid-sized firm,

but

hired a lot of

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

John Anthal: people. So we [00:45:00] had

a

core group of senior folks. And then a

whole bunch of young upstarts that he, you know, he brought in for the energy. I think at first it, it was, uh, it was a challenge, right? You've, you've, you've got a lot of energy, but not a lot of knowledge. and you gotta stumble through some of the growing pains.

But, but I think it paid off

because he brought

in

a lot of entrepreneurial

Dan Ryan: Mm.

John Anthal: and they've helped

grow the firm, uh,

with his

leadership to, to, the size it is now. And, um, you know, all those people that came in got, they, they all grew up. And now we have a, a proper and a proper, you know, kind of, uh, growth pattern for our employees.

And, and yeah, I

think, I think that's the, the biggest change.

Dan Ryan: I mean, that's, it's just exciting to hear you. Uh, it's actually been coming up a lot recently in my recent conversations on the podcast where this idea of being an entrepreneur and what entrepreneurism is and. I don't know, many younger people think, oh, I, I want to be an entrepreneur. But there's like, [00:46:00] obviously we've talked about constraints in this conver, just in this conversation, but it's like, oh, I need to raise money or I have to do this or set up an LLC or, and it's like entrepreneur as business owner.

And I think what's really important for people to know or that I'm learning also it's, it's not just as being a business owner. I think an entrepreneur is someone, anyone that is able to. Have a vision of where you want get to

with limited constraints, and you figure out those stepping stones to, to get to that vision.

Right?

It's al it's like you're, uh,

there's a little, little bit of, I don't know, eye of Newton wing of bat, but you just kind of figure out a way, and we, we can all be entrepreneurs, whether we're business owners or not. It's just a, it's, it's having that mindset that I can take these ingredients that I have.

As limited as they might be and get them to the next level. So like, as you shared with me, and that's really cool about the [00:47:00] single family homes, how do you guys as a leadership team think about these new verticals that you might want to get into or, or modifying the existing one as as entrepreneurial leaders?

John Anthal: uh, I mean,

of our sectors

came about just because somebody had an

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: them.

Um.

My, my own

included, right? We, we got one

project because of a, an existing relationship with a general contractor. And, I just happened to be on it and I fell in love. So I was like, I would love to do this over and over and over again.

How can we do that, Christian? And he said, write a

business plan.

Dan Ryan: Have you ever written a, have you ever written a business plan before.

John Anthal: never, never,

having done that

before.

Dan Ryan: So how did you do that

John Anthal: first I went online and I figured out, okay, what is a business plan supposed to look like? Uh, and, and he's like, listen, don't make it complicated. Gimme two pages. Tell me what you wanna do and tell me what you need to do it. I said, okay. So I, I thought about it for about a week, kind of

came up with a game

plan. I

put it in

front of him. He said,

all right, let's do it.

Dan Ryan: Wow.

John Anthal: And [00:48:00] then he's done

this with every employee at the firm.

He, it's an open invitation to anyone who

has an interest

beyond

something we're doing.

Dan Ryan: Wow.

John Anthal: Um, you know,

just pitch

me

the idea. We're a, we're a

big firm. We have resources, we have interest,

and

the most important thing about a firm is

Dan Ryan: Yeah,

John Anthal: right? So if you have

people who are

energized, enthused

about what they want to do,

They're, gonna

do

great work.

Dan Ryan: so

John Anthal: They're, it's gonna grow.

Dan Ryan: I think what's so awesome about that, like write a business plan, keep it simple, two pages. I think what you spend most of your time on, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the vision of what that will be in five or 10 years. Right.

Whether it's true or not, like you have to get to, I said the word North Star earlier, but it's like,

how do you define what that North Star is?

And once you, I think

we all have the ability, entrepreneurial or not, to get clear on a vision and then we figure out how to get there. And that's what being an entrepreneur is. So as much in the, in the way that Christian gave you the opportunity to identify the North [00:49:00] Star, because that's a really cool

leadership tactic, right?

John Anthal: Yeah, it.

Dan Ryan: Everyone is not born a lead like.

Some people, oh, they're a born leader, whatever. But oftentimes being a leader is just tools and tactics, right? So as much in, in the same way that he said, gimme that two page plan, let's do it, and then go, and you're like, oh shit, what do I like? How have you taken that and

and applied it to your teams?

John Anthal: So I think, uh, it, it taught me really early on that just 'cause you haven't done something doesn't mean you can't do something. Even when other people, right, tell you that you have to be, have done this before in order to do it now. Right? And a lot of people, if you get an RFP goes out, if you haven't done that type of work, that very specific thing, they're not even gonna look at you. like, well, how did the person who's on that get their first one? Right? Like, so we find our way, right? And I encourage, at least, I like to think, I encourage all of my employees, people that I work with, team members to [00:50:00] just go forward with it. Like, don't worry about making a mistake. Right,

like, just take

the chance,

try it,

see what

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: of

it,

and then we'll figure out the

rest

as

we move

along. Um, and I think that's, that's kind of Christian's mantra, right? Like,

uh, don't, don't,

stop swimming, right? The shark dies if it

Dan Ryan: Yes.

John Anthal: Just keep going forward

and

we will,

know, great things will

happen.

Dan Ryan: through your creation of the aviation practice within Mancini, Duffy, and then. Through the other team members that perhaps you've paid that opportunity forward for them to create their vision or get clear on their vision and create their project or new vertical or however you may have inspired someone.

At what point does Christian give you a black cape too,

do.

John Anthal: I think if you asked Christian,

he'd

say he doesn't want a black cape. Uh, and, and, I don't want one either. Um, what I want is, uh, a whole host [00:51:00] of clients who are happy with what we've done.

And that

wanna

call me to

Dan Ryan: Hmm

John Anthal: or to just

tell me about their day. Like, I

want

to make, uh, a level of trust between myself and a client that that kind of transcends the project, right?

That that's what I want and that's what I want my my teammates to do too.

Right? It's about

treating

people again

with the human.

Dan Ryan: Hmm I'm sure Christian. Hires people and you hire people who are creative and have a vision and can solve for that. Right. And creating or making their vision become a reality. Um, not just in a project, but just even in these verticals, initiatives, projects. Um, how do you guys as a, as a leadership team.

Keep those ideas fresh and sharp so that you're always learning because you might not even have all the tools to

bestow [00:52:00] upon others to, to, get that done and think creatively. How do you guys continue your path of learning and leadership within Mancini Duffy

John Anthal: let,

let, uh, it, it's kind of counterintuitive,

right? But, um, we might know the technical ins and outs and everything about how to handle a project, but when you get somebody right outta school

who's energized ideas,

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

John Anthal: Let them talk,

engage with them, let

them lead the

discussion. you never know what might come out of it. Um, allowing, everybody thinks the ladder, you know, the corporate ladder is, is like you gotta. Make sure you're always above somebody else, but I find that if you're empowering the people that you're working with, it's, it's not gonna overshadow you. It's not something to be afraid of. It's something to embrace. Let pull them up with you. them grow

and their

growth is

gonna help your growth,

and it's, it's

Dan Ryan: Yeah,

John Anthal: always.

Dan Ryan: I mean, that's completely resonant with me as well. Actually, I just MCed this radical [00:53:00] innovation event for the second time in a row, and basically they create these projects where you can win a prize, right? So there's a for product, for projects, and then there's, there's a student component to it, right?

It's a nonprofit. And the what I appreciate so much, and it's so inspiring about, I'll say kids, but you know, the young men and women who are are doing this, they have this, one of my favorite books I used to talk a lot, it's called Rookie Smarts. They just have a clean slate, a blue sky. They're unencumbered in the, like all those constraints we talked about earlier with the port authority as stifling as they can be.

If they don't know about those yet, they're unencumbered in their vision and and execution. And that idea of being a rookie and bringing in the new sensibility, I mean, it's just breathtaking what they can come up with being unencumbered. 'cause then you start talking about [00:54:00] permits and entitlements and like all that doesn't matter.

And if you want to keep design and keep pushing forward and being brown groundbreaking,

you need that young, fresh idea.

John Anthal: you do. And, and look, they're gonna say something that's wrong.

Like, you know that,

but

the idea is don't crush it.

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

John Anthal: see where it

goes. Even when you might know that it's

gonna lead down a path that

ultimately

won't function well. Let them

figure it out

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: and, and, kind

of

just help guide the conversation,

as best you can, but don't stifle it. I think, the critical part, and I love the, the

unencumbered word. I think

that's, that's like very accurate.

Dan Ryan: And I, and actually now that I, I haven't listened, I, I haven't listened to that podcast that I did with Christian in a really, really long time. Maybe the week after I did it three or four years ago. But, um, I think that Black Cape idea came about because from my experience, many of the architects who have their own firms, like the, they're, they don't even have to be a star architect, but they tend to be.[00:55:00]

I'll call them uncompromising visionaries. Right. And oftentimes, and, and that works like they're able to achieve greatness and create these great monuments that last generations. Um, but in being an, and I've worked with some or many uncompromising visionaries, oftentimes if I really look at, for me as an intern or working in a design firm, those people can come in and crush you.

Those uncompromising visionaries and yeah, they get to their outcome, but at what cost? The cost I think is really allowing that next generation of leaders with their unencumbered vision and creativity to come up and like inspire and create this kind of

flywheel of innovation.

John Anthal: Yeah, I

I, I

agree with

you.

It's,

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: gotta

be

open, right? I think

you can't be threatened

by adjacent

genius,

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: It's, it, It's, only there to help make you

better

too.

And

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John Anthal: what

source it comes from.

Dan Ryan: This has been an [00:56:00] awesome conversation. If I were a city or an airport authority anywhere in the world, and I wanted you to build this next airport for me, um, how do I get in touch with you? How do I learn about Mancini Duffy? Like how, how do I do this? I don't even know who those people are, but they exist.

John Anthal: Yeah, you can go right on, right on mancini duffy.com. Uh, you can see all the kinds of work that we do. Uh, you can find my own profile

and, and my own, you

know,

uh, contact

information if you'd like

to reach

out. But

yeah,

be happy to.

Dan Ryan: Awesome. Well, I've appreciated this so much and I love having people back from firms that I've done years and years ago. It's like the enduring legacy of, of this podcast. It's cool now I just get older and grayer and fatter, but you know, it's all good. Um, it's such a wonderful. Opportunity to have you on and thank you for sharing something that I really know very little about.

So you've quenched my curiosity in on the airport side of things and [00:57:00] reaffirm that I do not really wanna work with the, any kind of port authority anywhere in the world, and that I'm so glad that there are people like you

that can deal.

John Anthal: I like it, so

yeah.

Dan Ryan: Well, thank you and thank you to all of our listeners. If this changed the way you think about airport design, um, dealing with massive bureaucracies while not losing touch with the customer or the client that brings you to the table, um, please listen to it again, please pass it on to someone and don't forget to like or subscribe because this is how we wind up talking to people like John.

And thank you all very much and we'll catch you next time.