How Lawyers Can Escape Toxic Work Environments and Thrive in Their Own Practice

Watch the YouTube version of this episode HERE

Are you a law firm owner looking to find ways to improve your marketing? In this episode of the Maximum Lawyer Podcast, Tyson interviews Kelli, a former litigator who left toxic law firm environments to launch her own trademark law practice. Kelli shares how she built a supportive, flexible firm culture and leveraged her marketing skills—especially on social media platforms like Threads and Instagram—to attract clients. 

Kelli provides some insight about working in toxic law firms and her approach to creating a better work environment for herself and her staff. Kelli worked in a space where she needed to prioritize work to the point where there was no acknowledgement of good work or a reasonable work-life balance. For Kelli, this created an unhealthy relationship to her work and having feelings of overwhelm and burnout. For her staff, she ensures everyone is excited about what they do and love coming to work each day.

Now in a healthier environment, Kelli shares how she brands and markets her firm to get clients. She leans on a casual approach to branding, which is the opposite of law firms in general. Kelli uses creativity and uniqueness to brand her firm by creating a fun and fresh website to showcase what she is selling. Also, leveraging social media platforms, like Threads has been helpful in engaging with clients.

Listen in to learn more!

• 1:02 Identifying Toxic Law Firm Culture
• 6:03 Transitioning from Litigation to Transactional Practice
• 10:05 Advice for Lawyers Switching Practice Areas
• 15:29 Non-Traditional Law Firm Branding and Marketing
• 18:06 Website and Marketing Differentiation
• 20:07 Social Media Strategy and Client Conversion
• 23:54 Threads as a Key Engagement Platform
• 30:59 Using AI and ChatGPT for Marketing
• 41:35 Platform Choice: Why Threads Wins
• 52:07 Mixing Personal and Professional Content

Tune in to today’s episode and checkout the full show notes here. 

Connect with Kelli:

• Website
• Instagram
• TikTok
• Linkedin

Creators and Guests

Host

Tyson Mutrux

Tyson is the founder of Mutrux Firm Injury Lawyers and the co-founder of Maximum Lawyer.

What is Maximum Lawyer?

Maximum Lawyer is the podcast for law firm owners who want to scale with intention and build a business that works for their life.

Hosted by Tyson Mutrux, each weekly episode features candid conversations with law firm owners, business experts, and industry leaders sharing real strategies and lessons learned in the trenches.

If you're ready to grow your firm with less stress and more support, this is your next must listen. Subscribe today.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:02 This is maximum lawyer with your host, Tyson Matrix.

Kelli Jones 00:00:12 So, Kelly, you've mentioned that after working for toxic law firms in the past, being the CEO of your own firm has been life changing. We talk about that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:00:21 Yeah, definitely. I think just the difference in environment is been really great. I mean, one thing, obviously having more freedom and also making being the one to make more of the decisions and being able to run things the way I want, I guess, but also have more control over the environment has just really been great.

Kelli Jones 00:00:46 All right. I want to zero in on the toxic firms that you worked for. Not, you know, obviously don't mention their names. Yeah. Yeah. What made them toxic. Because I think identifying that labeling that will help other firms make better decisions when it comes to their firm. So what? What made them so toxic?

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:02 I think one of the biggest things was definitely the. It was also like we were just expected to do a ton of work, which obviously that's fine, but I think it was very much like, oh, you couldn't be seen leaving before a certain, you know, like don't walk out the door before 7 p.m. even if you have something going on, even if you got there super early, even if you've, you were just there working on Memorial Day for them, you know, it was it was very much that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:01:32 And just like a not respecting how much I think everyone was doing and also taking on because it was a smaller firm that, well, the last firm that I was at and a lot of people kept leaving, not just lawyers, but like other positions. So a lot of us were like juggling so many jobs. You know, sometimes I would go to court not just to handle my normal court appearances, but I'd also have my car filled with things that I had to go like serve the papers, do all this filing and stuff as well. I'd spend hours in court some days, and also like lugging that stuff around New York City. And it was never really even acknowledged that we were all doing all of this extra stuff. So I think just like the appreciation and also, I guess to a level, it's like the micromanaging of like, just trust us that, you know, I, I'm always going to want to do the best that I can do and probably even more than that, but just give me the space because I know, you know, I'm fine to stay super late when I know I have to get things done.

Tyson Mutrux 00:02:42 But not every single day of the year is like, oh, I need to be here for 12 hours more. Like, sometimes I have things to do or whatever. So I think just like more understanding of a work life balance.

Kelli Jones 00:02:56 That reminds me of a job I used to have where it was as a lawyer, and it was really interesting because me and another guy, we started the exact same time. We started as interns, and then we became attorneys with them and we would get there like six. 637 it was like the latest. We would get there. Sometimes we'd get there super early. We would work to like about six, six, 30, and then we would leave. And then the the owner started getting mad at us because it was it was like he wanted that face time. And so what we just started doing was, okay, fine, we'll come in at 830, we'll work till 730 and you're getting less hours from us. So it didn't matter about working hard or not, it was just a matter about that face time.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:36 Yeah, exactly. And sometimes, you know, one of the partners, like, usually both of the partners left pretty early, like, you know, before five.

Kelli Jones 00:03:45 So that's even worse.

Tyson Mutrux 00:03:46 But sometimes they wouldn't. So then we'd all just be texting each other like, okay, what are they going to leave? Like it's it's seven, it's 730, like, because it's like you can't leave before them. Yeah. So yeah.

Kelli Jones 00:03:59 So they kind of create this environment where you all were just like, I mean, I'm guessing at that point you probably weren't doing a whole lot of work. You're just waiting to leave.

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:06 Definitely. For sure. We're like, we already finished our work. You know, we're prepped for tomorrow. We're good to go, but just waiting.

Kelli Jones 00:04:14 So what have you implemented in your firm to make sure that you don't become that? Because I think it's interesting. A lot of firms, they'll pick up the bad habit and they'll then apply that to their new firm.

Kelli Jones 00:04:24 How do you prevent that from happening?

Tyson Mutrux 00:04:26 I think being really mindful of it, and also I think it's, you know, something you have to learn. Because one thing I did like about the firm that I was at is that I, I, oversaw a lot of it. Like, I managed a lot of the attorneys and like, you know, handed out projects and things like that and, you know, managed all the a lot of like tracking things. And I like that because I like having the control. so I think. Then once I had my own firm, I'm like, okay. Like, yes, you can have control of some things, but you can't have control of every single thing. So I think some of it is also just learning, like, okay, you have to learn to be a different way to have, you know, a better result. And for me, I think a big thing of that is learning to let go, because not everyone's going to do everything the exact way you might do it, and it doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just different.

Kelli Jones 00:05:18 What are some other things that you thought maybe did work at the Old Firm, and then when you tried to apply it, or maybe you changed something, maybe you thought it didn't work at the Old Firm. You tried to change it and make it work at your firm, and it didn't work.

Tyson Mutrux 00:05:31 I think probably just some of the, like, operational things. You know, I did try somewhat, I think, to have maybe some systems that they had and things like that. But you know, one, I'm doing a completely different area of law right now and also just very different. That was I was in litigation now. I'm transactional. So I think just learning that like even different tasks and things might require doing different things as well.

Kelli Jones 00:06:03 What was that transition like. Because you go from litigation, you're you're battling each other. That's that's how I feel like I'm just battling all day sometimes and sometimes. And I didn't realize this until Jim Hacking, he had mentioned it to him before. You may not know who Jim is, but he had said to me, he goes, when he did litigation, he would sometimes leave because he was asking me about it.

Kelli Jones 00:06:25 He's like, do you? Sometimes when you go home, you feel more combative because you were you're, you know, battling all day. And I was like, and I never realized that. Yeah, I was that's that's actually what happened. Sometimes I would, I would bring that home with me. Or there's times where, like, I'll be talking to a client where we're battling each other sometimes, and I have to, like, remind myself, okay, we're on the same team team here. We're not battling each other. Did you have to get over that When it comes to when you went from litigation to a transactional practice?

Tyson Mutrux 00:06:53 Yeah. Honestly, I feel like that is probably the biggest difference between working with litigation. And then now, because I do feel like I was just I mean, also some of this is just that I wasn't really the type of person that loved going to court and like doing that every day. But I do feel like I was on edge, like every single day.

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:14 Like on high alert, essentially, because you always have to be, you know, ready or like ready to handle what's coming next. Or like, if, you know, someone didn't show up and then we'd have to go to trial or, you know, whatever was going to happen. So I do feel like I was always on edge, both like going to court and then also at work with some of the other attorneys or, you know, like being competitive or things like that. So that was one of the biggest changes to now I just feel like this much more calm, like regularly calm. And it's nice because I'm like, wow, I forgot Like, you don't have to be, like, on edge or like, fight and flight, like, all the time, because you're not just constantly fighting.

Kelli Jones 00:07:55 Do you miss any of that, though?

Tyson Mutrux 00:07:58 Sometimes I do like I definitely miss, you know, because I think also it's the adrenaline of like there or all when something good happens and you're really excited about it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:08 Like it's not exactly the same. I'm for sure always excited when my clients get their trademarks registered. And, you know, sometimes it's a little more heightened if I've like, overcome a really difficult refusal. So then that's exciting. But it's still not exactly the same as like when you go into court and you're arguing with someone and then the judge is like, you know, goes with you. That's definitely like fun. And sometimes even the arguing is fun. I guess that's why we're lawyers.

Kelli Jones 00:08:34 Because that's.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:35 True. Kind of fun.

Kelli Jones 00:08:36 Yeah. There's a.

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:37 Time limit. Yeah.

Kelli Jones 00:08:38 So what made you want to pick up trademark? Like, why go to a transactional practice? Did you have experience with this before?

Tyson Mutrux 00:08:46 No. So I definitely was interested in intellectual property. I did take some classes in law school, and those were more of my favorite classes that I took. So it's definitely something that I've always kind of thought about, but I actually just fell into the private firm that I had been at, and I didn't really intend to go into that area of law or stay, but then I just kind of just ended up staying there for years.

Tyson Mutrux 00:09:11 So then when Covid happened, that's when I switched because courts started closing. First they caught our salaries, then, like they started letting us go one at a time because courts were still closed into June of 2020. And then that's when I decided to pick up trademarks instead. And I spent that whole summer like, learning even more about it than I had. And that's when I started my firm.

Kelli Jones 00:09:41 So you used that as an opportunity. That's. That's nice. Yes. What would you what advice? Let's say that if this were to happen today, but you don't have the benefit of, you know, everything shutting down so you don't have that time. How? What advice would you give to people today that wanted to take on? They wanted to go from like a litigation type practice to something like Trademark Day, to actually learn that area of law and then launch a firm. What advice would you give to them?

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:05 I think there's, you know, there's so many people, or at least I've seen so many people and like advice that you have to, like, quit and put 24 over seven into building this business.

Tyson Mutrux 00:10:15 And I think that's fine if you do. And I think for me, obviously that's what I did. Well, not quit, but you know, had 24 over seven to do it. But I don't think that needs to be how everyone does it. Like I think you could definitely spend time, you know, while you're still at a 9 to 5 quote or, you know, 8 to 7, whatever it is, building a firm and or at least starting to put those pieces into place behind the scenes, you know, learning a different area of law, doing all the research you can. There's so many paid ways to do it, but there's also so many free resources out there to like, learn things as well. So I think learning that also for me, like joining Facebook groups have been really helpful. That's the first thing I did before I started. I had joined a trademark attorney Facebook group, and I the way that I went through like years of posts of just people talking, asking all different questions, citing to sources, and then I'd go read the whatever they cited and then I would save all these posts I'd like.

Tyson Mutrux 00:11:18 So I went through years of stuff because I was like, I want to know everything. But it was really helpful. And also, I not only did I like, learn about what I wanted to do, but I also learned a lot about, you know, operational things, marketing like firm questions as well, not just the law. And also I saw how helpful the other attorneys were in the group. And honestly, I think that is probably the number one thing that gave me the courage to do it, because people used to tell me mainly my mom since I went to law school, why don't you start your own firm? And I'm like, no, you're crazy. I'm not. That's never happening. I'm never doing it. And I'm 2020. I was like, mom, I'm actually starting my own firm. But that was one of the biggest things because I was always so scared of, okay, if you're going out on your own, you don't have people to ask questions like, you don't have colleagues, you don't have a boss telling you what to do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:10 Like, how do you how do you know what to do? But then I saw in this group, people were all leaning on each other and, you know, help. So helpful. So that really gave me like the courage to be like, okay, I think I could do this. And then if I have questions, there's literally thousands of people in this group that are willing to help. So that was definitely like the the biggest thing.

Kelli Jones 00:12:33 What has surprised you the most in starting your firm?

Tyson Mutrux 00:12:37 Probably the difference in the attorneys on the transactional side, compared to the all the attorneys that I had were not all but a lot of the attorneys that I had known from litigation. Yeah, because I do not think that they ones that I had gone to court with and, you know, knew for years would be as helpful as the ones that I've met and also as helpful even knowing that, you know, we're essentially competitors.

Kelli Jones 00:13:10 Why do you think that is? I mean, it can't just be as simple as, you know, we're fighting all day and litigation, so it's got to be something else.

Kelli Jones 00:13:16 Like, what do you think that is?

Tyson Mutrux 00:13:17 You know, I've wondered if you know, lawyers that like, choose a transactional transactional route versus a litigation route or like, you know, have different, you know, traits and things like that, because obviously litigation, you have to be more, you know, forward facing and, you know, ready to argue. So I do think it's maybe a little bit of that, but I'm not sure. Like maybe it's transactional, or at least to me transactional. Seems like it's lower stress. So maybe that plays into it as well. But also I think the environment, because when you're transactional, you're not as day to day seeing the same people in court, even dealing with judges. Like I've, I've had judges scream at me for most of it. Like once I got screamed at by a judge because I walked into court with my winter jacket on. I was like, it was snowing, I was cold. I did not know that this was an offense.

Tyson Mutrux 00:14:21 So I think, you know, when you're just dealing with those kind of things every single day in Brooklyn, we had like five judges that would rotate however often, and we knew if we got one of that, like one of the five, she just you'd get screamed at that day, no matter what. She would scream at every single person on the calendar. So I think just being in that environment, I think heightens it. So I think that plays a lot into it.

Kelli Jones 00:14:45 Yeah. Any time you spend enough time in court, a judge is going to yell at you. And I've found that usually it's something that they did wrong and it's not something you did wrong. It's usually something that's going on with them. So I can think of every time that I've been yelled at by a judge, like, yelled, yelled at. It's because of something they're mistake and not something I did. And it's like it's like a total ego thing for them. They got there embarrassed by what they did and they're taking it out on you.

Kelli Jones 00:15:14 So yeah, I can completely I can I can relate to that. I want to change gears because you wrote that the running of a law firm doesn't have to be done the quote unquote, traditional way. And that includes the branding and marketing. So what do you mean by that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:15:29 I think a lot of the like, I guess, when you would look at more traditional firms, things are do tend to be a certain way, even if you're like speaking to people that are designing websites or things like that, when they're doing it for law firms, you'll see like a lot of the websites are, a lot of them do share colors. You know, a lot of them are more like neutral colors or maybe blues. And everything about it is just more like very overly professional. And I didn't really want to do that. Also, I was starting as a solo firm. I was starting at home, like working in my pajamas. There's just like and also I, I hated wearing suits to court, so I was very happy to get rid of all mine in 2020.

Tyson Mutrux 00:16:17 So I think that was one thing. And also, I had already been on social media for a few years as actually. So I was a part time fitness instructor. So I was doing that for years while I was working at a firm, I was like doing bootcamp and spin instructor, and I had an Instagram that was for fitness and I was connecting with tons of different fitness entrepreneurs. I'd go to like fitness events and stuff in New York City. So I think also being in that space, it was obviously just a lot more casual. So I kind of wanted to stick with that. So that's why literally like I just renamed my Instagram to Lawyer Kelly one day I was like, so actually we're pivoting from fitness to law, but I already had so many fitness entrepreneurs following me.

Kelli Jones 00:17:04 That hurt your numbers.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:05 No, it was it. Actually. It was so funny because so many of them, in the years that we since we initially met, some of them had continued to stick with fitness.

Tyson Mutrux 00:17:14 Some went into social media, someone into like different marketing things or, you know, branding or whatever other type of online business. So a lot of them actually ended up becoming my clients or referring me to other people. So that also like fitting into that space also led me to be a lot more. I was like, okay, I want to be more approachable to them because I also saw so many of them not doing anything with with the legal side of their businesses because they were like, well, I'm afraid of lawyers. Like lawyers going to yell at me or judge me or whatever. And I'm like, no, that's not true. No, no. So I wanted to, you know, fit into the, the like, the niche that I kind of had fallen into.

Kelli Jones 00:17:57 So I want to make sure we splashed this on the screen for people that are watching on YouTube and for people are listening to this, they can't see it. But your website is really interesting because I want to pull this up.

Kelli Jones 00:18:06 When we were looking through people, potential guests, one of the things that caught my attention was your your your marketing or your website really, because like, it's it's really cool. So people that are watching can actually see on here, but we'll splash it on the screen. But I do think it's I mean you're talking about I don't I don't know what color you'd call that. It's not red and it's not pink. It's somewhere in between.

Tyson Mutrux 00:18:26 It's pinkish.

Kelli Jones 00:18:27 Pinkish. And it's you know, it's a big it's a picture of you, you know, you're just kind of sitting there. And I think it's I think it's a really cool website. And instead of bullet points, you use chili peppers, which is really, really cool. I think that's that's awesome. And so it reminds me of and I am going to draw a blank on her name. Hogshead. Sally hogshead I got it. She wrote the book and I don't remember the name of the book, but she talked about different is better than better.

Kelli Jones 00:18:54 And I think that that is it's such an appropriate thing because people, they don't. It's one of the things like they don't hire you because they're like, oh, you're the best. No one knows who the best is. But if you're different, sometimes you're perceived as better just because you are different. I think that's really cool. Where did that come from? Like, where did you pick up all that knowledge, though? I wonder how how were you able to learn that in a way and then capitalize on it?

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:20 I think I had also I had learned a lot about marketing, especially marketing on social media in the years that I was doing fitness things on the side. That's really where I started. Like posting regularly on social media. Getting comfortable with it and kind of learning all about it there. And also, I had friends at the time that I met through fitness that were now doing social media marketing or, you know, coaching or whatever. So just from them, you know, being friends, I had followed all their content.

Tyson Mutrux 00:19:51 So I think over the years I had just already learned so much about it. So when I started my firm, I was kind of already like, well, I know exactly what I want to do because, you know, I've just I already had all of that, like marketing training and stuff from a lot of that.

Kelli Jones 00:20:07 How do you bridge the gap between the posts and making them a client?

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:12 I think really just connecting. You know, I think a lot of times, I mean, people will, you know, like DM me and be like, oh my God, I love this post or wow, you're so approachable. Like, you make the legal so much more fun or like less scary or whatever. So I think that makes it easier for them to either message me or email me. I'm also one thing I do see a lot of lawyers saying like no DMs or whatever, but a lot of people message me. Also just or replying to my stories about like not just legal things, but whatever.

Tyson Mutrux 00:20:46 But I think just creating like a more casual, like inviting environment has led a lot of people to, you know, just chat with me about legal stuff or other things and then, you know, end up booking that way. And I've also had tons of people that, you know, over the years in following me, have started a business or knew someone that did or started chatting with me about my post about like oatmeal or something. And then now like three years later, they're like, okay, now I'm ready to trademark, you know, that oatmeal?

Kelli Jones 00:21:19 That's funny.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:20 It's actually funny because I started posting this was like maybe 2 or 3 years ago I started posting. I don't really love oatmeal, but it's like a healthy breakfast.

Kelli Jones 00:21:31 So you gotta eat it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:32 So I literally post a picture of my oatmeal and I write like my stupid oatmeal for my stupid health. And I don't know why, but I've never gotten more engagement on anything that I've ever posted except my oatmeal stories.

Kelli Jones 00:21:46 Really.

Tyson Mutrux 00:21:46 It's like the thing I get the number one messages about.

Kelli Jones 00:21:50 Is there a certain mix of of like things you post about, like, do you have do you like okay, sometimes I'll do like a little bit about food and like, do you, do you have like a mix that you intentionally try to put out?

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:01 So for posts themselves, I try to keep it mostly legal related. Sometimes I'll put things about like travel or now that I'm living in Nashville, I'll put stuff about that. But for post I it's definitely like 90 plus percent legal. But my stories are where I show more of like my life. So that's where I'll post more about like things I'm doing or oatmeal or like my dog. So that's how I think people are like, oh. Like, one person wrote a thread's post about me yesterday and they were like, she's a swifty, so you should hire her. And I was like, oh, thank you. So just like other things that people can connect with me on, and a lot of times that is why they end up hiring me because they're like, oh, I knew her from this.

Tyson Mutrux 00:22:45 So I think the stories I do post some legal stuff on stories. Now I feel like Instagram engagement is so bad. So it's a little bit different. I feel like I don't post as much legal stuff just because it won't get watched, but I do try to like post things because it it does just make you more relatable.

Kelli Jones 00:23:07 How do you stay up to speed on the algorithm itself?

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:11 I am for sure chronically online, so I just, I always see things. It varies with what app I'm chronically online with, whether it's like Instagram threads or TikTok. But I do stay kind of up to date just from there. And then also having like now so many of my close friends are like also use social media. So sometimes, like if I haven't seen something then I see their post about it and I'm like, okay, let me do that.

Kelli Jones 00:23:43 I think you may be the first person on on the podcast I mentioned threads and since we started in 2016, I know threads is not that old, but I'm surprised I didn't know people still use threads is that people still use threads.

Tyson Mutrux 00:23:54 Threads is actually where I get the most engagement currently. Like now, it's far better than TikTok or Instagram for engagement. So Instagram I would say I use just as like, you know, it's easier space to put like, you know, you can put colorful graphics and videos and stuff, but threads is where I get the most engagement for shorts, where I've gotten the most new clients from this year.

Kelli Jones 00:24:19 So this is your show. My naiveté when it comes to threads like does. Does it mix with Facebook and Instagram? Kind of like Facebook and Instagram do? Because like if you post a video on Instagram, it'll also play on Facebook. Does it do all that with threads?

Tyson Mutrux 00:24:35 So threads I think it depends on people's settings sometimes. Like if I'm if you're scrolling Instagram, sometimes it will show you things like from people's threads posts, but not always. So I don't really know how that works. It's just like sometimes, but but you can go like from my threads, if someone sees my threads profile, they can click on the Instagram button and go see my Instagram.

Kelli Jones 00:24:59 So I've seen some people put where they'll post, like get my free such and such from this website. I like it's part of their whole funnel. I do do do you do anything like that? Is it effective?

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:11 I have that like in my bio I have like a link. And one of the things in my link is like a free lead magnet. So I think those are good, but I don't really post about them that often. I try to keep most of my posts, especially on threads like not salesy at all. Usually it's unrelated things that that people find me from, like talking about random things or Nashville or something.

Kelli Jones 00:25:37 Isn't it bizarre how like there's like with social media? Sometimes it's just that it's just random things that they will find you about and that that's how they ultimately end up becoming a clan. But that's also what makes me so uncomfortable about social media when it comes to a marketing campaign, because a lot of it's unpredictable. It drives me crazy.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:54 Yeah, it's very unpredictable.

Tyson Mutrux 00:25:56 But that is why I also, I always tell people to be ready to go viral at any point and be like set up for it. So for me, that means like having your bio optimized for whatever you do to make it clear for people, because if you do go viral, you know, a percentage of them will click on your profile and they'll want to read it. And then if you have the link in there, a percentage of those people will click on that. So I have it very clear, like, okay, here's my free thing here, my paid things, whatever. Because I actually I went viral on TikTok in 2021 actually a post about LCS.

Kelli Jones 00:26:30 Oh, interesting.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:31 Well, video about LCS. And that's where I got like I got like over 10,000 followers, like overnight on TikTok. And I had my funnel set up. So I got like, I think I got like 600 email subscribers and like, people had booked calls and like I have contract templates as well. So some of them had signed up or purchased some of those, or they were just in the funnel and then later on purchased those.

Tyson Mutrux 00:26:57 So I just always tell people to like, be ready because, you know, people will go to your bio and like the links and sign up for things. So have that kind of stuff set up in place in case it happens.

Kelli Jones 00:27:12 It's a good idea. That's that's a I mean, that's a massive influx of communications just overnight. And I wonder, do you have like a team that helps manage all the social media?

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:23 No, I actually like. That's my favorite part of my business. I'm like, no, no one's doing that. No one's taking.

Kelli Jones 00:27:29 It from me.

Kelli Jones 00:27:30 So how do you how do you do that? And then still practice law and get things done?

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:35 I think it it's, you know, I've been doing like posting now on social media for five years for my business. And then it was probably like 3 to 4 years before that. I was like fitness stuff. So I think for me it's just so it's it's much easier, you know, once you're doing it for such a long time, it, it takes a lot less time to do it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:27:56 So for me it doesn't really take that much time. So and also, you know, a lot of my Instagram posts and carousels and stuff like that, a lot of them are like templates that'll go in and change. So, you know, it's it's kind of easier. So it doesn't really take me that much time. And also especially with like videos the way that they are. Now I find that there's so much quicker. Like a lot of times it's just like the reels that go the most viral currently, probably all of this year are really like short five second B-roll videos with text over them. Really. So you really only need to have a random video of whatever, preferably with you in it or something, and then you just need to come up with the hook for it. And then a caption. So now that like that is the case, it's even easier to be on reels, because the reels that I used to make and that are my favorite to make are where I talk about pop culture trademarks.

Tyson Mutrux 00:28:55 Like, you know, if Kim Kardashian got her trademark denied or Meghan Markle or whatever, but those videos do take a little bit longer. So now it's just even easier to, like, get reels out.

Kelli Jones 00:29:06 So give me the formula. Then let's, let's, let's focus on reels. And then we can kind of go into whatever else. But like what's the magic formula? For reals? You said you have a template, so.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:16 Well, I have a template for my carousel posts.

Kelli Jones 00:29:18 Okay?

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:19 Just so that they're all like the same.

Kelli Jones 00:29:21 Let's ignore the carousel for a second. Let's just focus on reels for a second. Like, what's the formula? Let's. Because I'm guessing you're you're taking what works and try to replicate it. And it doesn't always probably work. But then you get you probably get more hits than what you, you know, the average person. So what is the formula?

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:39 So now for the most part I do try to just like sometimes I will, you know, I set them chronically online, but I don't really scroll reels too much or Instagram too much.

Tyson Mutrux 00:29:52 But I will sometimes just go on the reels tab and scroll just for a little bit to see like what kind of videos are currently trending. And usually I'll just pick one of those and like add like a 5 to 10 second video depending on whatever the audio is. And I also just try to have some videos like that I'll cycle through like, you know, because I don't know who takes tons of videos of themselves or some people do, I guess, but I don't really. So I just, you know, every once in a while cycle through the same ones. But really, I just put that there and then put text over it on the top. Sometimes it's an idea that I've seen, like maybe some, you know, social media manager that I follow posted like, oh, here's a trending audio. Like, that's what this week, like, I just happened to open Instagram, I saw it, she's like, oh, here's a trending audio. Like make sure to use this one.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:43 And she said like here's an idea like talk about, you know, a story or whatever. So then I'll try to come up with some type of hook. Not gonna lie. Now with AI, I do sometimes use ChatGPT to help me come up with like more clever hooks or shorter ones sometimes.

Kelli Jones 00:30:59 Is it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:30:59 Good? It is. So I actually have a custom GPT that I purchased from a copywriter that is designed to it has she's like trained it on all like sales and consumer like psychology and stuff like that. So it's for sure better than regular ChatGPT. But it's also all trained on I have I give it tons of like I give it PDFs. So it's fully trained on like my brand voice, like it has like, you know, 40 pages of my Instagram captions and stuff that I've written. So it knows, like my voice. So that's pretty much how I come up with my hooks now. And usually I'll just say like, okay, I'm using this audio and this is kind of like the idea I want.

Tyson Mutrux 00:31:40 Or can you help, you know, help me come up with some angles based on like, you know, all of these posts that I've posted before to kind of like help repurpose, and that's really what I do. I just like repurpose a lot of my stuff. And sometimes I'm like, I feel boring, like I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again, but that's what marketing is. Yeah. So and then I also do throw in pop culture, things like this. Over the summer, Love Island was a big thing. And then also the summer I turned pretty the show. So you know, sometimes I'll I make my post about those two because then it spikes engagement a bit. So that helps like relating to the legal stuff.

Kelli Jones 00:32:20 So that's I think it's a great idea when it comes to the the prompts. Are you basically recycling prompts to where you'll be like, okay, is it like a template where you use it when it comes to the prompt where you'll just fill in certain things, like for example, the song maybe so everything's the same and is it one big prompt, or is it like, are you prompting one at a time for each of those things?

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:41 It really depends.

Tyson Mutrux 00:32:42 I don't like I do have some prompts that I'll use, but usually it's honestly just random based on like what has popped into my head that week, or sometimes what I've seen people talking about on threads, which is where I spend more of my time scrolling, because I will see people saying like or complaining about something or, you know, saying this happened to them, or this person copied them or whatever, and it might spark an idea for me. So usually a lot of it is more like in the moment. And then I'll ask like, okay, can you come up with some like angles or like, let's talk about how, you know, behavior psychology and like sales and stuff is changing in 2025. Can we come up with some new angles to post? And, you know, sometimes you do have to kind of tweak it. It's like, okay, no, that's great. But I want just something that's like 1 to 2 sentences. It has to be, you know, engaging and things like that.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:40 And sometimes I'll just end up writing it myself or using things that I've posted in the past and like using the same hook. So a lot of it is just like it is pulling from a bank of, you know, stuff that I've done in the past.

Kelli Jones 00:33:54 Do you keep the bank somewhere? Like, do you like just or just you.

Tyson Mutrux 00:33:56 Should, but I have I feel like I have started that so many different times, and now I just have all these different PDFs with like, you know, from different seasons. And now you know if you are using ChatGPT at all, you have to. Every so often start a new chat. Otherwise it'll get worse and worse or start like hallucinating. So now I try to like start a new one every month and just try to like I have to feed it back my information.

Kelli Jones 00:34:24 Oh that's interesting. So you are you're having to redo a bunch of the stuff that you've already done.

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:28 Some of it. Yeah. What? Because then I'll, I'll notice like it's giving me not good things anymore and I'll be like, okay, it's time to start a new chat.

Kelli Jones 00:34:39 What makes a good hook?

Tyson Mutrux 00:34:41 I think it's just something that is quick and engaging, and I think it also takes a lot of testing. There's plenty of times my posts have flopped and I think it's just keeping trying different things. Honestly, some of the things I'll do, I'll write them like three different ways and then, you know, weeks apart, I'll post all three different ways and kind of see, or sometimes I'll also ask people like I've sent, well, my best friend, I'm like, you're my social media manager. I'm like, does this sound better or does this sound better? Like, which one's more engaging or which one would you stop your scroll on? So a lot of it is just like testing. now there's also trial reels which are not shown to your followers, but they're shown to, I guess, random people.

Kelli Jones 00:35:27 Oh, interesting.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:28 So honestly, I think it's still a lot of testing, but someone recommended this a while ago, so I've been doing it. Basically as soon as I create a reel and like, you know, I have it in my drafts, I duplicate it and then I'll post one to my regular feed and one to my trial reels.

Tyson Mutrux 00:35:47 The same exact thing. So I'm not like doing anything different, but it's getting pushed to different audiences and a lot of them don't. Nothing happens. Nothing goes anywhere. But sometimes I will get new people from those trial reels because Instagram's trying to find your audience with it. I guess that's the intent. So I think some areas it works better than others. So I think law is a little harder for Instagram to like. Gauge who who would want to see this. But I'm like, okay, well it doesn't really take any extra time. It can't hurt. So I'll just that's my current like what I'm doing with my reels.

Kelli Jones 00:36:26 All right. I'm gonna test you a little bit here. And because I'm just pulling up Apple News, I'm just going to pull up just randomly. We're going to try to figure out some how you would approach. We're going to assume that these are like the top stories okay. I don't know if I want to do that one. So there is I'm trying to get something that's not political because what was just showing is not the same thing.

Kelli Jones 00:36:48 That's not that was up there before. But okay, so here's one I don't know if you play with this one. One of the articles, it's from the San Francisco Chronicle. Suddenly San Francisco doesn't have enough mansions. I noticed mansions, so maybe fun. Let's say that's like the number one story, right? That's trending. Right. Like, how would you play with that? Like what would. Like how would you prompt it. Would you go to ChatGPT like right away. Or what would you do?

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:11 I might try to think about it at first, but I might take it to ChatGPT and be like, how can I relate this to business owners and trademarks and see if it has anything for me or if it has any ideas?

Kelli Jones 00:37:26 And would you stick to it? Do you try to just do business in general or specifically trademarks?

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:33 So I would say probably the majority of the time it's more trademarks. But I do try to do like more business in general kind of posts as well, especially just because that is relatable for more people than just those looking for a trademark or also relatable to like current and past clients that have already hired me.

Tyson Mutrux 00:37:55 So yeah, I would say it's like more trademarks, but some business as well.

Kelli Jones 00:37:59 Okay, So let's say I'm going to. I'm going to give you some more fake hypothetical. So let's say the articles, you know, suddenly San Francisco doesn't have enough mansions, right? So let's say ChatGPT says that that's causing business owners less businesses to move to San Francisco because they can't buy a mansion because they don't have enough. Right. So maybe how would you play with that? That's the result that it gives you.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:23 I mean, you know, maybe something about, like when you trade, obviously a better hook than this, but something about the idea, like when you trademark your brand, you own your brand, it gives you more power, and then you can move anywhere you want. So you don't have to go to San Francisco.

Kelli Jones 00:38:41 I like that. Okay. So would you come up with that prompt and then ask ChatGPT to give you some to tweak it? Is that how you would do it?

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:50 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:38:50 Like sometimes I might ask for like help me word this a better way or give me different ways to say this or even just different tones, because sometimes it'll. It'll be like, okay, here's an idea. Now, do you want a bolder version or a funnier version? And sometimes I'll be like, okay, yeah, sure. Show me. Sure. Yeah. Let me see. And then I'll decide. Because sometimes, like, I, you know, sometimes I'll just give it like a video that I have or something and say like, help me come up with like a funny way to relate this to trademarks. So yeah. So sometimes it'll just be like, okay, this one's funny. Do you want more professional? You know? And then you can like kind of switch up your content a bit.

Kelli Jones 00:39:33 Yeah. Okay. So you take. So it gives you the hook. It gives you some funny ways of relating it. And then what are you like where are you. We're doing reels.

Kelli Jones 00:39:41 Right. So where are you compiling all this is, are you doing inside of reels? Or like where where are you putting it all? Where are you putting the text onto it? Like, give me the mechanics.

Tyson Mutrux 00:39:51 Oh, yeah. So all of. Yes. So everything's in, you know, the ChatGPT like log. And then I'm just going right into Instagram and putting it in and, you know, typing it over the video and then putting a caption in. Sometimes I do I do have a lot of captions in my notes app. So some because sometimes for a while Instagram was going through this glitch where like if you left the Instagram screen, like if you close out of it to go back to another app, it would close. So I got into a habit of like always putting my captions in my notes app first because I've lost so many. Now that glitch is like it's better, but I still don't like I don't want to test that.

Kelli Jones 00:40:37 Is that an intentional glitch? Because they don't want you to do this stuff in another app, and they want you to do it all natively inside of Instagram.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:44 I mean, it definitely could've been.

Kelli Jones 00:40:46 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:40:47 Who knows? But yeah, so I do have I probably have like 800 captions in my notes app. Jeez, I think last year I tried to like, go and put them in separate folders based on like trademarks, contracts, business, whatever. So at some point they were somewhat organized. But but yeah so I do try to put that there. Also it helps because then some days I'll be like I don't know what to post. And I'll go in my notes app and I'll just type like trademarks and all my things will come up and I'll be like, oh, that's a good I'll post about that idea. That's cool idea. So yeah.

Kelli Jones 00:41:20 Okay. So you only can choose one social media platform to post on for the rest of your career. Okay, so we are in 2025. Which one are you picking and why.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:35 Threads.

Kelli Jones 00:41:37 Really. Oh my gosh this is crazy I. Okay tell me why.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:43 So one thing about threads is I think you can get I think one of the reasons why engagement is so good over there is because.

Tyson Mutrux 00:41:53 So, you know, if I'm scrolling my feed, I'll see posts from people I follow. But then I'll also see posts. If any of my followers have commented on those posts, it'll bring that person's post there. So anytime. So my posts aren't just going to people that follow me, anyone that comments on my posts, it's going to all of their followers also. So that's why I like consistently have the most engagement there.

Kelli Jones 00:42:22 This is wild I the I maybe I'm sleeping on threads is that that's really interesting. Are there any tools with like AI that you think could be like other than ChatGPT? Like, are there other tools that you use that are helpful when it comes to any of your social media?

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:42 I don't really use anything else. Wow. When it comes to socials.

Kelli Jones 00:42:46 That's I mean, it's pretty impressive. Now, is the majority of your marketing dedicated to social or do you do you focus on other things?

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:52 Yeah, I'm I.

Tyson Mutrux 00:42:53 Do email marketing, but I'm not nearly as consistent with it as I am with social media.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:00 But I do have an email list that I try to email once a month ish. Yeah. So I do that. I've had like I did have my website optimized as best as I could, I guess, for SEO and things like that. I do have a blog, but I definitely I used to be fairly consistent on it. Honestly, I think this year I might have posted 1 or 2 blog posts. So I do want to get back into that. Podcast is also one I think. I think this is my 51st podcast.

Kelli Jones 00:43:32 Wow.

Tyson Mutrux 00:43:33 So yeah, that's definitely one also.

Kelli Jones 00:43:36 So all right, that's interesting because we're gonna we're gonna dig into that a little bit, because I have noticed that there are certain set of people that are really focusing on doing podcasts. And I get I sort of get it, like. Like we wanted to have you on. Right? I think because I think you're doing some cool things, but I when it comes to coming on this show, like, how would this show benefit you or are you usually going on more consumer facing podcasts?

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:07 So usually I'm going on podcasts where the audience is business owners, like small business owners that are typically usually not lawyers.

Tyson Mutrux 00:44:19 That way, you know, more of them are my ideal client. So yeah, that is probably the majority of my podcast. But I do think also that getting on other podcasts is still beneficial for like, you know, referrals and just really building relationships and stuff. So yeah, that's where I think other podcasts can be helpful as well.

Kelli Jones 00:44:42 You'll get a backlink from us too, so that'll be that'll be helpful. So we'll definitely, you know, be able to send that to your, to your site. And plus we'll, it'll also be in the show notes. So there's that as well. So I think that that's I think that's helpful. So that's that's interesting. Can you tie directly leads to all your marketing channels. So are you seeing let's just focus on podcasting for a little bit. Can you are you actually are you able to tie leads and conversions to podcasting.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:09 So not always because so I do have a form when people schedule my trademark consultations, which is like how do they hear about me? So some of them do say podcasts, especially this year, actually, I had someone come hire me from I think it was a podcast that aired in like 2022.

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:28 Oh, wow. And she had just, you know, ended up listening to it now. But some people will say that. But also, I can't tie it exactly because some people from the podcast will follow me on Instagram and then at some point in the future, hire me. So I'm like, not sure exactly, but definitely some people come directly from the podcast.

Kelli Jones 00:45:47 All right, so let's test this out. Do you remember your landing page or the that you use for social media? Do you like a specific URL you used?

Tyson Mutrux 00:45:55 Yeah.

Kelli Jones 00:45:56 Okay. We're going to test this out and see if it leads to anything. So like give what that URL is.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:01 I think it's your legal era.

Kelli Jones 00:46:05 Okay. So forward slash links. Links. Yeah. Okay. So hopefully people like. So if you need a trademark attorney or maybe you have a referral. Click on that and submit. I want to test this out and see if you if you get any I guess even if you're just listening you want to test this out.

Kelli Jones 00:46:20 Click on it and submit your information. I do want to see, because it'd be kind of cool if you could find. Sometimes we'll let people come on and they want the the best ones don't do it in a salesy manner. They'll find a creative way to offer something to our audience, and they'll then what'll happen is like, you know, they'll get a bunch of leads or whatever. I don't think that's going to happen, because this is a bunch of attorneys that are listening about marketing and business stuff, but I do find it interesting the way they do it. So it'd be kind of cool if you were to able to get some referrals from this based on that. So because I mean, we like we need trademarks we use. I don't know if you know Joey Vitale, but yeah. So Joey, like we we use them for our trademarks. And so there are attorneys that need trademarks.

Tyson Mutrux 00:46:59 Yeah, yeah, I have a number of attorney clients. And also actually because of social media, I have a lot of attorneys that follow me, like for my social media.

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:11 And I've had calls with tons of them about like their own marketing and stuff.

Kelli Jones 00:47:16 Yeah. Well let me. Okay. So how would you like the way. Like, we've not put as much into social media for personal injury as we used to, just because we were not seeing the we were not seeing a connection between we're putting all this effort in. I mean, I was spending so much time recording videos and posting and all that, and we were just weren't getting the return on it. It just didn't make sense. So how and I'm sure that there's some we just weren't doing it right. I don't know, but what are some ways you would advise like a personal injury attorney to to do their marketing when it comes to posting and like, is there a certain platform that you would focus on? And if you say threads, there's no way it's thread, but maybe it's threads, but what would you focus on? How would you do it?

Tyson Mutrux 00:47:59 I would say probably more a video, maybe TikTok actually, because I do think for personal injury it would be more video focused because it's obviously like individual consumers versus businesses, whereas trademarks, you know, obviously is B2B.

Tyson Mutrux 00:48:17 And I think just interesting videos where people would, you know, rack up the engagement on. And that is what I've seen from personal injury attorneys. I do think it's a little different to as far as like conversions. I do think that B2B is a different type of social media than B2C. So I think I think all businesses should be on social, because I do think a lot of people use it to vet that way. And like, okay, maybe you want to see that, like this person, they're real and like or even just search like when I'm looking for someone to hire or something. Like a lot of times I do just use Instagram, TikTok like as search platforms. So I think everyone should be on it regardless of the amount. But I think like, you know, B2B, I would definitely go heavier on the social media marketing.

Kelli Jones 00:49:15 Have you tested out ever doing your own show for trademarks, or maybe more business focused, for generally business focused, and then mention trademarks? You know, occasionally to target business owners? Have you ever thought about doing that?

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:30 No, but I do.

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:32 So one of my friends has a podcast. She's in HR for small businesses, so she does like consulting and helps people with all of that. So her podcast is HR related, but we have a special podcast that the two of us do through her podcast. That's just pop culture.

Kelli Jones 00:49:50 Nice.

Tyson Mutrux 00:49:51 So every few months we record episodes because we both watch like Bravo and whatever. So but we will talk about it from like a legal and HR perspective from like what, whatever is going on, but that, you know, like no client is going to come to me because, you know, because it's not about trademarks has nothing to do with trademarks, but it is like our pop culture way of like we have something fun to talk about too.

Kelli Jones 00:50:19 Don't sleep on that, because, I mean, I have there's a lot of people like Bernard Naumburg. I don't know if you know him. He's an Alabama attorney and he he's like big into like, baseball cards. And he's like, he started these like Facebook, Facebook groups for like, baseball cards unrelated to law.

Kelli Jones 00:50:33 But everyone knows him as I think he does worker's compensation. Right. So in Alabama like that's they all know him for that. And I think it does lead to him getting quite a few cases. Yeah. So don't sleep on that necessarily. Just make sure you plant that seed every once in a while that you are a trademark to me because I it could lead to more cases than what you might think or. Yeah, I guess you'll probably call matters don't you.

Tyson Mutrux 00:50:57 Okay.

Kelli Jones 00:50:57 So yeah matters. It's like I think if I were to go from litigation to, to transactional work, it would be really hard for me not to call it a case.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:04 I still yeah I still call it a case.

Kelli Jones 00:51:06 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:07 Even though.

Kelli Jones 00:51:08 It. Yeah it'd be hard not to. Okay. So if you were to choose, let's say you had to get rid of everything. So you, you got the podcasting part right. You've got the website, you got the social and you've got the newsletter if you were to get ready.

Kelli Jones 00:51:22 So we already said you like threads the most. So you have to get rid of everything but one of those, what would you get rid of or what would you keep besides threads?

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:31 What would I.

Kelli Jones 00:51:32 Be? No, no. You know, you threads as part of it. So so would you just.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:35 Out of.

Kelli Jones 00:51:36 All of everything you can. Only what I, what would you. Yeah. What's the only one you would keep?

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:39 Threads.

Kelli Jones 00:51:40 Threads?

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:41 Yeah.

Kelli Jones 00:51:41 Wow.

Tyson Mutrux 00:51:42 But also, I think one reason I also like threads is it does give me flexibility to like, talk about whatever I want. Like, I talk about everything and anything on threads. I talk a lot about Nashville. I talk about dating. I talk about my family. I talk about anything. And that's where I get so many connections from that end up then, you know, turning into clients.

Kelli Jones 00:52:07 Okay. Referrals. This is the this is a great segue because I wanted to ask you about this a little bit more because, I mean, I've heard, like the best way of approaching posting and on on any platform is to kind of mix it up a little bit.

Kelli Jones 00:52:20 Like, you have different like, think of it like, you know, your platform as like four legs on it. And so you okay. One of them might be Nashville, one might be dating, one might be trademark one, maybe food or health or whatever it was. Right. Those are like the four legs of your of your stool or of your table And so that's your platform. And I wonder, do you approach it that same way because I've heard like that's the way to do it. Because that's the most effective way for people to get to know, like and trust you. Is that why you do it? Or it's just because you like to to post? They're generally like, do you have like some strategy as a part of it?

Tyson Mutrux 00:52:53 So for Instagram, I have more of a strategy where my like content, you know, like whatever you want to call it, pillars or whatever would be more like business trademarks, maybe Nashville threads. I don't really have a strategy. Honestly.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:07 A lot of times I just literally, quite literally post whatever pops into my head. Which I think also is why I like threads so much. It's just such a more casual platform and you can connect with people on so many different topics, but that's, you know, how you connect with people. So I would say that's also probably where I talk about trademarks the least, but it's where I grow the most. Like I would say, my Instagram this year has been pretty stagnant, you know, like you lose followers, gain whatever. But my threads is the only place that I'm, like, actually growing and meeting new people.

Kelli Jones 00:53:45 Does that maybe to me. And maybe I'm just oversimplifying it. But to me, that indicates that maybe you should be talking about more of those other things on the other platforms.

Tyson Mutrux 00:53:54 Yeah, I think that and that's definitely an idea. So I actually just started because I like to try new coffee shops in Nashville and work from them, because I'm far more productive there than at home.

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:08 Sure. so I've been making coffee shop videos and posting them on TikTok just because TikTok has always been more of a like, yes, I post about law there, but you can kind of like post other things. For me, Instagram always seemed more like, oh, you have to be more like legal focused. But I did just actually last week I posted my first coffee shop video on my Instagram and a bunch of people messaged me saying like, oh, they like that. Keep doing that. So I am going to start posting like more things there too.

Kelli Jones 00:54:38 I think you're onto something. Yeah, I think I can't wait to see like a year. Like hopefully it's like blown up even more. You made a massive move from New York to here to Nashville is where we are right now recording. And I wonder why the move and what was how did that affect business?

Tyson Mutrux 00:54:56 Yeah, so I actually wanted to move to Nashville since 2014. I took the bar here in 2016. They took the New York bar in 2014 here in 16, thinking that I would move here shortly after I didn't.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:10 I finally got here at the end of 2023, so it took quite some time.

Kelli Jones 00:55:15 To get those golden handcuffs off. It's hard to move.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:17 Yeah, I was just like, I don't know if I.

Kelli Jones 00:55:19 Could do it.

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:19 It's, you know. So I finally did it. And I just really always liked this city.

Kelli Jones 00:55:25 A beautiful city. I really like it.

Kelli Jones 00:55:27 Yeah, it's a really cool city. Yeah, yeah. But how did that affect business, I wonder?

Tyson Mutrux 00:55:32 honestly, it didn't really affect it at all because since it is trademarks, everything's virtual. You know, my clients have already always been all over the country since they connect with me, mostly through social media. So it didn't really change it at all. If anything, I do think maybe it helped a little bit because when I was in New York, I wasn't in New York City, I was on Long Island, so I didn't I felt like I wouldn't really be known for like New York City content, you know? But here I am, known a little bit for Nashville.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:02 And actually ChatGPT has referred me quite a few times, really. People have said like, oh, they were like searching ChatGPT for like a female lawyer, trademark lawyer in Nashville, whatever. And they found me. So I feel like it's helped a bit.

Kelli Jones 00:56:19 Have you intentionally tried to make your way into ChatGPT results, or is that just a flaw?

Kelli Jones 00:56:25 No, I.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:26 Have absolutely no clue how it happened. When I saw it the first time, I was like, oh my God, this is so cool.

Kelli Jones 00:56:31 So that is interesting. I mean, I am convinced, like there's practice areas out there that are just ripe for disruption, where you would go into certain areas, like you could your whole marketing strategy, it could be you create a bunch of different website pages on different cities across the country that are the size of Nashville, not New York.

Kelli Jones 00:56:52 Size, but like.

Kelli Jones 00:56:53 Nashville size and just dominate.

Tyson Mutrux 00:56:55 Yeah, and I think people do that for sure, especially with like Google ads and stuff.

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:02 I definitely think people do that.

Kelli Jones 00:57:04 Do you do you play with anything like Google Ads?

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:07 No, I haven't I've tried Facebook ads in the past, but I've never done Google ads.

Kelli Jones 00:57:12 Well did you? I wonder what your success was like when it comes to the Facebook ads?

Tyson Mutrux 00:57:17 I never really had any success. I did, and, any ad person will be like, this is a no, no, don't do this. But I've actually only ever gotten results Boosting posts on Instagram. And not like that's where I found like my content has. I've gained new followers who then have sometimes developed into clients, but and I don't actually haven't done it in a long time because I don't know, I just kind of forgot about it. But I would only ever boost a post that was already doing really well and that kind of worked better. But whenever I've done ads, I've worked with like 3 or 4 different ads, like specialist agencies, whatever. But I, I feel like I've only ever broken.

Tyson Mutrux 00:58:03 Broken even.

Kelli Jones 00:58:04 So you brand yourself pretty boldly in a way. And so you'll you'll say things like, don't fuck around and find out, right? It's not usually what you hear. Not usually not what you see. And I wonder is. And I have no problem with it, it doesn't, but I have I have said customers on this show and gotten some text messages about it, and it's not I mean, I don't mean to offend people, and I know you don't either, but and I don't. So I have no problem with you posting about it. I think it's cool. Actually, I.

Kelli Jones 00:58:31 Like the edge.

Kelli Jones 00:58:32 Is there anything that you're afraid to post about, though?

Tyson Mutrux 00:58:36 Not really. I don't really shy away from posting things or like, you know, saying the f word or whatever, because I kind of my mindset has always been that you're always going to do something to repel some certain people. That's just like how it is. But I do think, like standing more, being more of yourself and, you know, standing in that is going to also, yes, it's going to repel some people, but it's also going to attract other people even more to you.

Tyson Mutrux 00:59:09 So I think, you know, for all the things that like the people that have said, oh, you shouldn't say that, or you should be more professional or, you know, whatever. Which I've gotten tons of comments. there are so many other people that'll be like, that's the exact reason why I hire you and recommend you so well.

Kelli Jones 00:59:29 So it's interesting to me because you'll have people that specifically, specifically like cussing or something or they'll talk a certain way, but on video they won't, they'll talk another way. And to me, that's just being disingenuous. You're not that's not who you really are. And don't. So don't go judge someone because they're doing it and that there's nothing unprofessional about it. Like the to me, it's unprofessional and disingenuous for you to act a certain way whenever you're off camera. And then when you're on camera, you act another way. And I so I think that, I mean, I, I kudos to you for, you know, being yourself. I do wonder about like politics though.

Kelli Jones 01:00:02 Like are you I try to be very like down the middle and very kind of vanilla when it comes to that because I, it's like one of those things where like it's you can disagree about one topic. That's what's so crazy about politics these days. It's like one thing, just one. It could be a little thing to you, but to another person, they're done And you may lose an entire side, right? An entire side. And I think one I think that's so unfair, but it's but I also think it's like, okay, that's dangerous. So I try to be very, very down the middle when it comes to that. Not show politics at all. Do you treat it the same way or do you same way. So you're.

Kelli Jones 01:00:41 Open.

Tyson Mutrux 01:00:41 Very political, especially on threads.

Kelli Jones 01:00:43 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 01:00:43 Which is where I get the most followers.

Kelli Jones 01:00:45 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 01:00:46 But yeah, I would say I'm very political and I have for sure gotten people saying like, oh, well, now you're losing me as a client, you know, like after an election or something like that, but then I'll have 20 more commenting, well, you've got me now.

Tyson Mutrux 01:00:57 So I do think it's, it's that same thing of like, yeah, you're repelling people, but you're attracting other people even more. And personally, I as a business owner, I'm very or also just as a consumer, I do look for, I look to invest my money in, I guess, businesses that are more aligned in what I'm doing, what I you know, my values are and I know a lot of my clients feel that way as well. So, you know, I think a lot of my clients would not have hired me if I was silent on a lot of the things that I'm not silent on.

Kelli Jones 01:01:35 Do you have, like, an avatar client, like an ideal client that you're looking for?

Tyson Mutrux 01:01:39 Not like specifically. Really. It is just like any, any business owner that you know has a brand that they know that they are looking to keep.

Kelli Jones 01:01:52 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 01:01:53 Something that they're pursuing as a business versus like a hobby. And yeah, that's really it.

Kelli Jones 01:01:57 I am very curious if like if you were to look at all of your your entire roster, of all clients you've ever had.

Kelli Jones 01:02:02 Like if there's like a common theme as like the type of business they are.

Tyson Mutrux 01:02:05 There's a few online business is definitely a big portion of them, like online service based business owners. I also have a decent portion of clients in the beauty industry that kind of just happened because one of my good friends who she was doing, like social media marketing and like business coaching. She ended up referring me to like, a couple of people, and then they were in the beauty industry. And then it kind of just like spread. She was actually in Idaho. So like her friends in Idaho that were like in the beauty industry. Yeah. So I have like tons of beauty business clients in Idaho, which is just random.

Kelli Jones 01:02:50 That's that's kind of.

Tyson Mutrux 01:02:51 Like also just that area of the country. So yeah, that kind of just happened also.

Kelli Jones 01:02:56 So it's my understanding that you also you create a DIY trademark course.

Kelli Jones 01:02:59 Yes. Okay.

Kelli Jones 01:03:00 So what was the inspiration behind that? This is what we're going to wrap up.

Kelli Jones 01:03:03 We're going to talk about this. And so what was the inspiration behind that.

Tyson Mutrux 01:03:07 So I've always been very against telling people that they should or could DIY their trademark, just because there's so much more that goes into it. Also, I always tell people, the search that a lawyer does is really like the most important part of the process to, you know, to manage the risk level and also just apply in certain ways, like avoid problems during the process that sometimes you can't fix down the line. And I've also had tons of people come to me that, you know, did DIY it or use legal zoom or something. And then and I'm.

Kelli Jones 01:03:39 Like.

Tyson Mutrux 01:03:40 We kind of have to start over. So I was always really against it. But I think that people are going to DIY it whether we want them to or not. So I wanted to create kind of a resource that was more of a middle ground to help them DIY it, but actually have like my guidance. So like I go through everything, I show them how to do an actual like real search to, you know, what to look at, how to do the application the right way, how to handle refusals, how to handle everything.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:09 And actually so I launched it a year ago, and if you don't know, it typically takes about a year to get a trademark right now with the trademark office. And this morning I got the DM from one of the girls that purchased last year, my first client that purchased. She finally has her registered trademark.

Kelli Jones 01:04:27 So.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:28 That's exciting.

Kelli Jones 01:04:29 That's awesome. So yeah.

Kelli Jones 01:04:31 Congratulations. That's really that's really cool.

Kelli Jones 01:04:33 Exciting.

Kelli Jones 01:04:33 Have you thought about shifting the course to make it targeted towards lawyers to teach them how to do it?

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:39 No, because I have a very good friend that already does that for lawyers. And it's the course that I took as well.

Kelli Jones 01:04:48 So yeah that's.

Kelli Jones 01:04:50 Fair. Okay.

Kelli Jones 01:04:51 I like and I.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:51 Also think hers was really good. So no reason.

Kelli Jones 01:04:55 To. Okay.

Kelli Jones 01:04:56 Very good. Who was that?

Kelli Jones 01:04:57 Do you.

Tyson Mutrux 01:04:57 Sonia lakhani.

Kelli Jones 01:04:58 Okay. I know okay. Okay. Very good.

Kelli Jones 01:05:00 Okay. I know I'm.

Tyson Mutrux 01:05:01 Supposed to get dinner with her.

Kelli Jones 01:05:02 Tonight. Okay.

Kelli Jones 01:05:03 Excellent.

Kelli Jones 01:05:04 You tell Sonia I said hi. That's. That's awesome. Really cool. Let's see. Kudos to you. She should listen to us. I should reach out and tell her that you do. Duh. You're protecting her, so that's really good.

Kelli Jones 01:05:13 Yeah.

Tyson Mutrux 01:05:14 I would only refer people to her. best one to do it.

Kelli Jones 01:05:17 Okay, so here's my last questions about this. Are you worried? Does it worry you at all? Clearly you're not worried, but I wonder if there's any part of you that worries that courses like that, plus AI is going to cannibalize your your niche?

Tyson Mutrux 01:05:33 Yes. For sure. It's definitely always on my mind especially, you know, because I have my trademarks. But I also have my contract templates, which was kind of like a DIY way for people to get contracts without having to pay thousands for, you know, a custom contract. But it was more niche, you know, like a guest release template for podcast guests or, you know, whatever it is.

Tyson Mutrux 01:05:55 And I do think those have taken a hit since AI, because I do think people are more likely to use AI for their contracts, and I definitely think people are going to use them for their trademarks as well. I do think it's something that like I'm thinking about as like, okay, this is this is coming. You know, I was getting smarter and smarter very quickly. I definitely think it's something there. It's also, I think a reason, though, for having the course versus not having it, because I still think there are, you know, because there was always going to be people that were going to go to legal zoom or DIY it. That's never going to change. But I think there will still be people that will be like, okay, I could use AI, but I still would rather have a lawyer or at least a resource from a lawyer. So I think that that's also kind of one of the reasons why I really wanted the course, because I thought, okay, maybe, you know, who knows, maybe in a year or two, maybe there will be less people hiring me to do a trademark, but maybe there'll be more people purchasing my course and it can kind of like supplement that way.

Tyson Mutrux 01:07:03 So that's my hope at least, that if you know, services go down, people invest in the course more.

Kelli Jones 01:07:11 I think that that's smart and that's that's what I want to ask you about it, because it is a smart hedge, if that's what you meant. But I mean, even if even if you did it on accident, it is a smart hedge against that. As those other services start to get, the need for them goes down. It's a good hedge. And I think that as us, as lawyers, we have to start kind of thinking that way. Okay. Yeah. Can we hedge our bets in because we none of us know really what's going to happen in the next ten years. But if we can start to hedge a little bit, okay, maybe we'll put a little bit of a little more effort over in this area. We'll be a little more protected in ten years compared to other, other, other people.

Kelli Jones 01:07:45 Yeah, exactly.

Kelli Jones 01:07:47 Well, thank you so much for doing this.

Kelli Jones 01:07:49 I really appreciate it. I really enjoy this. I learned a lot about it and I'm so surprised by by the.

Kelli Jones 01:07:53 Threads.

Kelli Jones 01:07:54 Discussion. But thank you so.

Kelli Jones 01:07:55 Much for the get on threads.

Kelli Jones 01:07:57 Yes Kelly thank you so much.

Kelli Jones 01:07:58 Appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for having me.