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Conversations around theology and the Bible. Pastor Cameron and Pastor Luke of Conduit Ministries share their reflections on theology and the teachings of Conduit Ministries.
Here we are back to talk about the next point of our doctrinal statement.
Luke:That's right.
Cameron:The or not this is the part on humanity and sin.
Luke:Yeah, which you got to preach on this last week.
Cameron:I did.
Luke:So, yeah, what what do you feel like you maybe left on the cutting room floor when it comes to the importance of sin? Wow.
Cameron:Well, I think I would be remiss to not quote my boy, John Wesley.
Luke:Oh, yeah?
Cameron:Yeah. Not necessarily to answer that question, but to tee up the the why we even why we even have this.
Luke:Yeah. Why talk about sin?
Cameron:He said that he actually wrote on original sin and sinful nature more than any other topic.
Luke:Really?
Cameron:Yep. It's interest well, maybe with the exception of grace, but for him, it was foundational to his understanding of prevenient grace, and then justifying grace, and perfecting or sanctifying grace. But, you know, he kind of famously said that the doctrine of original sin is the most empirically verifiable doctrine of the Christian faith. Yeah. Meaning, it doesn't take a theologian, or a pastor, or a genius to tell you that there is something deeply, deeply, deeply broken and flawed with humanity, and Christianity calls that Sin.
Cameron:Sin. Yeah. And I think that if I what I would've what I wanted, would've loved to spend more time on in my sermon this past Sunday would be on the difference between sin as just something we do or don't do, and sin as in the foundational part of our nature. Like, the difference between I do bad things, and I am a wretch. Because sin is, in our, in like contemporary context, sin is usually, I have, I just did things, I do things that I shouldn't do.
Cameron:Yeah. And I don't do things that I should do, and if I can just figure it out. Yeah. Man, if I can just stop doing the bad things, if I can just start doing the right things, then I'll be fine. Yeah.
Cameron:I will have gotten the favor of God, and I think this idea is ultimately I think ultimately, this idea is what makes Christians especially in love with podcasts, TikTok and Instagram, preachers Mhmm. Spiritual sound bites
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Over a hunger, and over a hunger for God's word.
Luke:Kind of like a Christianity, at least the modern temptation right now, is to turn Christian faith into like a personal self development.
Cameron:Yes. Or just another moral or ethical system that will help me be a little bit better. It's gonna help me raise my kid. I'm gonna be a better husband. I'm gonna be a better father.
Cameron:Yeah. I'm gonna be a better coworker. I'm just gonna get better. Yeah. And the difficulty in that is that we have tried to get better.
Cameron:You have tried
Luke:to get Oh, certainly have tried.
Cameron:I have tried to get better, and the only thing that I know about myself is that I cannot get better.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Is that I the it really is. The harder I try, the more I strive, more tremendously I fall on my face. Yeah. And so if we could have gotten to, or if I could have spent more time on anything, it would have been more time on our guilt in Adam. Yeah.
Cameron:Like, our our connection with Adam as a part of our nature, and like, so more Romans five, you know. And I would have also liked to talk about talk more about kind of some of the core of sinfulness
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:That kind of comes out in Genesis chapter three. Like, what actually what actually was enticing about sin, what was enticing about the offer of the serpent. Yeah. Like, what was the serpent offering, and why did they
Luke:Why did they say yes?
Cameron:Why did they accept? Mhmm. And what does that say about the core of sin in my life?
Luke:Yeah. Yep.
Cameron:You know? And I tried to do that a little bit in that I brought my sermon because I wanted to kind of remember some of the things that I was saying, but I tried to say that in my first main point on sin, that sin is rebellion against lordship.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:So it's like, no, God is not actually God of my life. Yeah. I can make the decisions. And why is this so core to sinfulness? Well, Adam and Eve had everything to had everything at their disposal to understand who God was.
Cameron:Yeah. They lived in perfection. Mhmm. They lived in intimate relationship, and they still rejected his lordship, by saying, we know God said not to do this, but we're gonna do it anyway, because I am the captain of the ship. Yep.
Cameron:I am the master of my own soul.
Luke:The The thing that I It wasn't until I understood this, that a little bit more clearly that I understood why it was wrong that they ate out of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's because they were taking hold of this decision making power to decide what was right and what was wrong. Exactly. Rather than trusting God and saying, God knows what is good. God knows what is evil, and let me trust his guiding.
Cameron:Right. Mhmm. Right. A 100%. And so, with the rejection of lordship, is the acceptance of self centeredness.
Cameron:Yeah. And, actually, the Latin the Latin definition, the Latin word for sin is incervitus se, which means turned in on oneself. So like, the Greek, when they use amartia, missing the mark, the latin, the vulgate, it's incervitus se, I'm turned in on myself. It's a complete self centeredness. The world, the cosmos, it all revolves around me.
Cameron:Yep. Then sin is how, rebellion against lordship, it's adoption of self centeredness, and it's displayed in disordered affections. Mhmm. I love things I shouldn't love. Yep.
Cameron:I hate things that I should love.
Luke:Or I love things I should love wrongly.
Cameron:Yes. Yeah. I love things I should hate. Whatever. I mean, like Yeah.
Cameron:I said You did. Yeah. And and ultimately, it's acceptance of lies Mhmm. About God and about myself.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:You know, the serpent, did God really say?
Luke:An immediate mistrust.
Cameron:Right. Right.
Luke:God really He's holding something back from you. Right. Yes. The good life that He prescribes for you. If you follow His will Yeah.
Luke:You're gonna live a life you're gonna miss out.
Cameron:Yeah. So, they accepted a lie about God. Yeah. And then finally, what I really wanted to get into, but it was just like, it was a trail that was not gonna allow me to get into the next point of theology that we were talking about that day, but how all all of that, that Adam and Eve's even ability to sin Mhmm. Is an indicator of God's tremendous love.
Cameron:That that that choice equals love, the presence of love. Because if they did not even have the ability to choose, it would be impossible to say that God actually loved them. Yeah. Because, if they were just pawns that did whatever God wanted them to do, and acted, and said, and thought, and feel, and felt, and believed whatever God wanted them to do, they were without choice in the matter. Right.
Cameron:There would be, it would be very difficult to say that God loved them. Mhmm. Because we don't Like, even in human relationships. No, like With your If Sherry's dad drug her down the wedding aisle, and said, it doesn't matter what you think, you are marrying kid. Yeah.
Cameron:I would never believe that Sherry actually loved me.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Because like, I know that Sherry loves me because she has the freedom to not love me, but instead chooses to. Right. And so, Adam and Eve's ability to choose Mhmm. Is a, I think, the one of the most critical markers to say, God really loved them. God really loves us, because he gives us the choice to not love him.
Cameron:Right. And freedom is the ultimate form of love, or the ultimate display of love.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:So, I think those are the things that I really would have liked to say Yeah.
Luke:More of. Yeah. That's there's a lot, because the way we conceptualize of sin like, were talking about this idea of sin is not just something I do or don't do. Yeah. It's about who I am.
Luke:Yes. Did you ever watch The Good Place, the television show The Good Place? Mm-mm. It was like, kind
Cameron:of No.
Luke:I quit halfway through. Was funny, it was interesting. It's by no means a good, accurate representation of the Bible theology, and it's not really trying to. It takes the cartoon understanding of heaven and hell, and makes fun of it, and has interesting things to say. But the first handful of episodes, the first season in particular, really clearly depict what I think unfortunately too many people believe.
Luke:If I do enough good things, and not all the good things get stacked up on this scale, and if I do very little or as few as I can manage bad things, I'll go to the good place. I'll go to heaven. And that's what sin is. Sin is the bad things I do, and I should try and do as little of
Cameron:those as possible. Right. And it's actually okay if you do a little bit of them, as long as you do more of the good things.
Luke:That is the Yeah. Like, why is that so harmful?
Cameron:It's so harmful because it changes the standard for what it means to be, like, to be in God's presence.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:So, if the standard is I only have to do a little bit more good things than I do bad things, then most of us actually could probably get there. Yeah. Right? But there's still the presence of bad things. Yeah.
Cameron:Okay? So this but the standard for being in God's presence is being like God. You know, His holiness rules the room, so to speak. And so the standard has always been perfection. Like, in order to be in the presence of the most high, holy creator of all that there is, or was, or ever will be, it requires perfection.
Luke:Yeah. It's kind of like analogy that popped in my head while you were saying that is like, would you be happy if you were going into surgery and your surgeon's hands were mostly clean? Right. Yep. Would you be happy with that?
Luke:I was like, there's only a few germs on my fingertips.
Cameron:Yeah, no, I've seen I've seen actual I've seen pastors do sermon illustrations, where they took a cup of water
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And they put like one droplet of sewage in it. They were like, it's just one drop in this whole glass. Would you will you drink it? I'm like, no. That's disgusting.
Cameron:Like, why? But why? It's Why just would you do that? It's just one drop. Right.
Cameron:In this big cup of water. Okay. How about if I put one drop in a pitcher of water? Mhmm. Would you drink it?
Cameron:No. Why? Because it's gross. It's got sewage in it. It's Right.
Cameron:It's defiled, and it's this that's it's this idea. Well, but if you say, well, I mean, the standard perfection is unattainable. Right. Why is perfection unattainable? Because we, in our sinful nature, are wholly, fully unable to be perfectly obedient to God in all that we do.
Cameron:We have moments of obedience. It's not I think the difference here is like, it's not that the only thing we do is sin. We don't only sin. No. It's that we are wholly incapable of never sinning.
Cameron:And so, when the standard is perfection, and we recognize that by our nature, we cannot reach that standard, we're left in a place of like, how What do I do? What do I do?
Luke:I cannot wash my hands that clean.
Cameron:I cannot do this. Mhmm. And, be like, come back for our next episode. What do we do? Yeah.
Cameron:And and that literally is what we talk about in the next point Yeah. Of our theology, of our doctrinal statement. But the the thing is, is like, there's sometimes there's questions, I think, about the the addition of like sin, humanity and sin, like why this is an anthro, you know, it's like anthropology here. Why are we talking about ourselves? In the
Luke:nature of man.
Cameron:Yeah. But like, it's it's impossible to talk not I shouldn't say it's impossible. It doesn't make theological sense for us to talk about atonement
Luke:No.
Cameron:In the life in the ministry of Jesus Yeah. Without talking about the tremendous need. Right.
Luke:Why is the good news good?
Cameron:Because the bad news is really, really bad. Right.
Luke:I actually think, like, I've reflected on this a little bit, and I think it's one of the reasons that really, modern preachers, really struggle with evangelistic sermons and calls to the Gospel is because I think we're a little hesitant to lean into the sin, to lean in and say like, No, you sitting in the pew, your life, it's a mess. Yep. There are things that you do not want to talk about and bring
Cameron:It out into the is worse than you it is even worse than you think it is.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Like, you we even play patty cake with our own sin, even though we know that it causes death in our lives, and we've seen the destruction of our life. Think about the worst that you feel about your sin and what it's done in your life, and cosmically, it's actually worse. Yeah. It is it is actually if we had a picture of what sin actually did or was leading us towards, we I think we would be shocked.
Luke:Yeah.
Cameron:I think we would be I don't know that we would I think we probably could not move under the weight of it. Mhmm. But yeah, the good news is really good because the bad news is really, really bad. Yeah. And that, you know, I agree with your, like, talking about preachers having a difficulty of bringing us to a point of understanding the immensity of our own sin.
Cameron:It's a little bit of, I tried to do it a little bit, even though it was more of like a cultural interpretation than it was a like fire and brimstone type of thing.
Luke:Oh, yeah. You were trying to wake us up to the fact that we've fallen asleep to the fact that sin is all around us. Or Or that sin is in us.
Cameron:Yeah, and that, like, our our world has been modeled off of this idea that we can make it better on our own, and if we just stop for half a second and actually look and think about it, we all know this is not working. Right. Our like, it's the world is broken. Broken.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Darkened. Hardened. And every bit of progress in worldly wisdom actually is just a descent into more darkness. Yeah. You know?
Cameron:And so, without a grip on that, like, even just the picture of what comes next is, it's hard to capture it, I feel.
Luke:Yeah. Well, the world is kind of like, you know, the biggest truism, right, is you do you.
Cameron:Mhmm. Right? Mhmm.
Luke:Be true to yourself.
Cameron:Yeah. As long as whatever What's truth?
Luke:Yeah. Preach your truth.
Cameron:What's your truth?
Luke:Yeah. And then as long as whatever you do doesn't impede or hurt someone else. Mhmm. Hurt with, it's funny how loose we can begin to get with what causes hurt to other people. But as long as it's not taking away someone's freedom or hurting them, you can do whatever you want.
Luke:That's that's the ethic of the world we live in.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:And the fact of the matter is is that, like, that's the ethic if God doesn't exist.
Cameron:It's also the ethic of It's also the ethic of It's it's a soulless ethic. Yeah. Because it it essentially says, it doesn't really matter even if this thing hurts me, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. What it's saying is like, the damage that this thing may do to my soul. Yep.
Cameron:It doesn't actually matter. I don't even know, like, it is soulless, because it says, it doesn't even matter if it does damage to me, as long as it doesn't do damage to someone else. Yeah. And sin is ultimately damage to you. Right.
Cameron:It is relational Yeah. And it is cosmic, but it is And you cannot escape community. No. Can't escape I can't escape your brokenness, you can't escape mine. It's gonna it's gonna flood over into into the people's lives that we're in all the time, and like, it's what makes it it's what makes the church difficult sometimes to be in.
Cameron:Yep. I was preparing for our Lenten series this morning, the coffee shop, and was thinking about this aspect of community, about community, and especially the church being a workshop rather than a showroom. You know, and that there's this, that even in community, our sin is flowing over into other people's lives, and why, like, the grace of God to bring us together, and that His righteousness now would become the thing that flows out of us onto others is the is the formational quality of the church. Yeah. So, yeah, man, I I think having the conversation more having more conversation about the nature of sin, and the sin nature, is really important Yeah.
Cameron:In teeing up the gospel. Yep. So why don't we go there?
Luke:Let's do that.
Cameron:Alright. If you want more information on original sin, whatever, again, the book You Are a Theologian, one that we've shared several times so far, has a pretty good chapter in that. It does. And if you're you know, you heard me mention John Wesley, you can, you can Google John Wesley on Original Sin or on Sin. You can get his journal articles, his sermons, all of that.
Cameron:He talked quite a bit about it. So thanks for listening. We'll catch you on another one.