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How to get the most from your designer, featuring 2 incredible designers—Jason Clement & Mike Brennan.
It’s easy for personal brands and SMBs to get overwhelmed in a sea of marketing and branding voices, choices, and channels. Robby Fowler taps into 20 years of personal brand experience to help you clearly connect the dots between your branding, marketing and business strategy. To avoid being another burnt-out leader or under-performing brand or business, tune into this podcast. Build a personal brand and business that breathes life into you and your customer.
Robby: The Brand ED Podcast
with Robby Fowler, episode 72.
How to work with a designer to grow
your consulting, training, or coaching
personal brand with special guests,
Jason Clemett and Mike Brennan.
Too many personal brands are stuck
pitching to everybody, getting heard
by nobody, and settling for anybody.
This show helps high-integrity
brands secure and serve-the-socks-off
more of your dream clients.
We'll go beyond marketing hacks and
discover how to grow a thriving,
personal brand business based on
radical empathy for your clients.
Welcome to the show today.
We're going to have a good time because
this is a little round table discussion
that you're going to get to listen in
on with two of my very good friends
and phenomenal designers and artists.
It's Mike Brennan and Jason Clement.
And together, we're going to talk about
design and what you, as a personal brand
need to know when you're working with
a designer to build your personal brand.
So let's jump into today's episode.
Welcome to the podcast.
So I've got Mike Brennan who
is here and I'll get him to
introduce himself in a second.
And Jason Clement.
We all come from a design background.
You guys are in the day-to-day of
design more than I am currently.
But I thought this would be a great time
to get together talk about creativity,
to talk about design, and to help
folks listening who aren't designers.
We're going to invite them into the
little geek club and you guys aren't
get to listen in to understand how to
work with their designer at, to get
the most out of their designer and what
they need to be paying attention to and
not paying attention to when it comes
to personal branding and their design.
Mike, let's start with you just go
ahead and introduce yourself and tell
us a little bit about what you do,
and then we'll turn it over to Jason.
Mike Brennan: Sure.
Yeah.
So Mike Brandon and I say that I
am a creator and communicator who
tells stories on pages and stages.
And that means a couple of things.
One on the creator side, obviously
designer, like you said, I've been
doing graphic design for years
and years as well as illustration.
So sometimes that illustration crosses
over into design and I get to do
projects where kind of both happen
in logo settings or other settings.
But I also do a lot of like pop
culture art and things that lean a
little bit more towards fine arts.
And then on the communicator side, I have
a podcast creative chats, and I also speak
about establishing a daily creative habit.
Love all things, creativity.
Robby: Yes.
Very cool.
All right, Jason, I
should let you go first.
Unless you've got something
that rhymes like Mike does.
Oh, that was good.
I kept thinking
I was like, oh no.
Mike Brennan: Hanging out with
my copywriter, friends too
Robby: yeah.
So Jason, tell us a little bit
about, who you are, what you do.
Jason Clement: So I'm a
graphic designer as well.
I've done drag design my whole life.
I started in I've always loved
to draw and I started in high
school, I had a mentor who.
Introduce me to the world of design.
There's an action, there's a
natural extension there and
I just fell in love with it.
And I've been doing it every sentence.
I do a lot of branding and
websites for coaches, consultants,
speakers, people like that.
Robby: You've probably seen Mike
and or Jason's work if you're in
our streams or in our worlds at all.
So both of you guys got started in some
sort of design young would both of you.
I know Mike, would.
Jason, would you also
consider yourself an artist?
Jason Clement: I think so.
I think there's a level of art to
creating whether it's a business, a
website for a business or a brand,
or I think there's art, there's
artists involved with all that.
And I would definitely call myself
that because that's where I started.
Robby: I didn't start out as an artist.
I can't draw like stick
figures . So I'm the designer
that the artists typically go.
Ah, but you're not even an artist.
I will freely admit, Nope, I am Okay.
I would love to know from each one
you, what's your favorite thing to do?
Either art or design.
What do you enjoy doing the most out of
the things that you regularly get to do?
Mike Brennan: I'm already doing that.
So I, it's not really that hard for
me to think of it's doing portraits.
I do a lot of digital portraits, so I
have an iPad pro and use the apple pencil.
And when that thing came out and
those things came together for me,
it was a great experience for me.
Because I had tablets in the past and
that whole disconnect of looking one
place and drawing in another place.
I could never really master that.
But when the iPad pro came out and
the pencil that really helped me a
lot, make it feel more intuitive.
And so doing portraits because I just
love people and I love making connections.
And there's just something about doing
people's portraits in a loose style
that really resonates with who I am.
Robby: So when you do that at an
event, are you, I padding that, are
you good, old canvas kind of thing?
How do you do that when you're
doing that on a stage or something?
Mike Brennan: Yeah.
So most of the time, I'd say
probably like 90% of the time I'm
doing digital, I'm doing iPad.
A lot of the canvas stuff either.
If I'm selling something or doing
something after the fact I'll be
getting like a prints made high
quality of prints on canvas.
And then I can always hand embellish them.
And every once in a while I have the
need to get a little dirty and sloppy and
sling some paint around and stuff like
that, and just kinda get back to my roots.
But something about because of
being so much in the design world
and already being in a digital
platform, harnessing that stuff.
More tools that, that kind of mimic
analog, if you will and the messy textures
and all those kinds of things, I really
enjoy bringing those worlds together.
And of course having undoing and
not cleaning up, paint and things
like that, it's really it really.
And also, I don't have things piling
up around me like canvases and whatnot.
After a while, you can be like, I'm
running out of room, but digital
clutter, is a little different.
Robby: Yeah, I think I could close
my eyes and get the undo shortcut.
No problem with the keyboard.
Like I know the exact ratio from
thumb to index finger for undo.
Whoops.
Okay.
So Jason, we, Mike and I get
together, we pull some money together.
We send you away to some
fabulous location for a week.
And our only request is while
you're there chilling and hanging
out for a week by yourself, you got
to do some designs just for fun.
What would you do?
Jason Clement: This is a really mixed
for me because I really enjoy creating
brands or identities, but that is across
crossover there because that, for me, that
still starts on with a pencil and paper.
And so I'll I've been making the
transition to iPad because of the pencil.
I love it.
And been doing lot more on my iPad
versus a notebook, but I carry a a
field notes with me all the a pencil.
So I love to draw with a pencil.
even like in meetings if you've
ever been on a zoom call with
me, except for today, I anything
Oh, there's a pretty good chance.
I drew a picture of you all around.
It's just I just sketch,
draw all the time.
Cool.
Okay.
it's interesting that the branding
starts with sketches for me.
Robby: So folks listening in
are likely a personal brand
branding conversation comes up.
They're on.
Having to think about brand
logo, design, all of that stuff.
And for most of those folks, it's not the
funnest thing for them to think about.
They think about, oh, this is
going to cost me a lot of money
or how much money should it cost?
How do I get a good one?
Should I go look over here on some super
cheap site and just get something for $5.
So let's help folks out.
We're going to bring you
into the inner circle.
We've got three designers here.
A lot of us do design around
branding and personal brands.
So let's start with you, Jason.
If a personal brand comes to
you and they say, Jason, I need
you to help me with my brand.
Where do you typically start with them?
Jason Clement: Yeah.
I have a little questionnaire.
I walk them through.
But I think what I normally
do is like the brand is more
than just creating an identity.
I think I just referred
improperly previously.
But, if I'm talking about
a brand, I talk about.
That extends multiple things.
So I asked like what other areas
that they're involved with.
So are you doing a book?
Do you have lead magnets?
You have a website, all these other
things, because I really like to, I,
sweet spot is where I'm happy is when I
can create an identity for you and help
you build that But then also let that
seep into all your other, all the other
that you created or having created.
I like to know what it is that
they do what other areas that
this print is going to be going.
Robby: So Mike, why do to designers and
why a personal brand think through that...
of the different places
this is going to get used?
Why does that matter for you the designer?
Mike Brennan: Yeah, it matters
because of context, right?
Context is key because you don't want to
build something to find out you get on
the other end of it and it's useless, or
it doesn't work in a variety of contexts.
And so a lot of times people haven't
thought through those issues.
And so for us as designers, we need to
be thinking about those things because
we want to be, at the end of this,
we want you to be happy as a client.
We want to feel good about
the work that we've done.
And we want to try to avoid as much as
possible, any wrong turns or dead ends.
And so asking as many questions up front
as possible, so that there's clarity.
And the other thing I've found is that
many times people come and they're
asking for something and it's fairly
obvious early on in the conversation
that they're not really sure why
they're even asking what they're asking.
Someone told them that they needed a logo.
Someone told them that
they need to visual.
they don't really understand why.
They just know that's part of
the process that's on the list
of things I need to tick off.
And so I've reached out because this
is something I need to have done.
And so having a larger conversation
around that to go, okay let's talk
about what the purpose of that is.
And let's try and get some clarity around
that so that you're not just checking the
box and saying, okay, I've got that piece
done, but that you're being intentional
and clear as far as what it is that
you're hoping this is going to accomplish.
Robby: That's good.
So let's stop there.
Let's summarize two things we've already
just learned if you're a personal brand.
One of those things is beware of,
just the list somebody hands you
that, Hey, you need to go get these
things in order to be a personal brand
and just run out there and do them.
And Mike just mentioned have
given zero thought as to why.
I'm doing this because
somebody told me to do this.
And then what both of the
guys mentioned, number two.
When you're looking for a designer or
working with a designer on your visual
identity, if they don't ask you the
questions that Mike and Jason just
asked you or said that's where they
start, then you need to keep looking.
Can we agree, fellas, keep, you don't have
a good visual identity brand designer if
they're not asking you these questions.
We've come in.
You've asked me some questions.
You're now helping me think about the
visual identity part of my brand, how
that relates to the rest of my brand.
What's the next thing that you
help personal brand with, or
think through when it comes to
now using and applying that brand?
Where do you see mistakes
after Jason or Mike?
You turn over the visual identity assets.
You say, there you go.
Where do you see mistakes?
What advice would you give them
about how to take advantage of
what you've just done for them?
Jason Clement: I see this a lot.
I, not so much recently, but in
the past I saw a lot where people
just didn't use the things that I.
If I created it, if I create a brand
kit for you to follow the K here's
your college, here's your fonts.
Here's things like that.
then I go and I see a lead magnet that
they created it and it looks nothing
like all the rules that we set up the
followup and I'm and consistency is a key
thing and I'm just like, this is totally
not what should have happened here.
I see that a lot where people just don't
follow under the rules established.
Robby: So there's your tip number three.
Consistent.
So take what your brand designer
gives you for your visual identity.
Number one, use it.
Jason just said, please use
it like you paid me for it.
Use it.
Number two, if there's one time
to be a Pharisee and be legalistic,
this is the time to be legalistic.
Use it all the time, every single time.
Be consistent, Mike,
anything that you would add?
Mike Brennan: I would be
in agreement with Jason.
I don't think people think
about it in terms of assessing.
So they get assets and maybe
they tuck them away someplace.
Hopefully they know where they are
because that's sometimes even Hey,
can you send that to me again?
I don't know what I did with
the link or where the, whatever.
So hopefully there's enough organization
on the other side where people, again,
they've invested in this and then
they put it someplace where they can
access it and their team can access.
Easily enough.
And then, like I said, really, it's
adopting a mindset that there's a
system around this, that whoever touches
anything visually needs to go through,
the style guide that's been set up.
You've paid all this money.
All his effort and work
has gone into that.
Why would you have this then not being
used and implemented and making sure
that whoever is on your team knows
where it is and understands that this is
everything needs to pass through this.
And so having, not only the people
who were in charge seeing it as
a system, but then also anybody
else who comes into contact or
needs to see it as the system is.
Robby: Let me ask you guys.
How do you organize the
stuff you've done for me?
Like logos and that kind of stuff.
And then based on that, what would you
recommend to me the personal brand to say,
Hey, and when I turn these over to you.
Like be smart, go organize
them this way, store them.
I know this sounds elementary,
but this is part of the problem.
We get a call back a week later.
Hey, can you send me my logo?
I just sent that to you seven
days ago, a month later.
Hey, can you hit me back
with those logos again?
So how do you organize and
what advice would you give?
Jason Clement: Yeah.
what I do is I package all
the files up, all the various.
File types and and low back package them
all up and I'll send them all the files.
I normally create a brand kit, a
guidelines PDF that they have that
kind of walks them through everything.
And so normally I send out all that to
them, but I also, most in most situations
I'm creating a website or something.
And I also create a page on their website.
I'll say, Hey, you can go to xyz.com/logo
or slash brand or whatever it is.
on there you can find, it's
another version of your brand kit.
You your local files there.
So they're able to share
that with other people.
If they do con come back to me
months later and say, Hey, can you
send me a local files again and say,
Hey, just go to your website slash
brand and all your stuff is there.
Robby: Yeah, really smart.
Mike, how do you organize your stuff?
And any other advice you
would give to somebody?
Mike Brennan: Typically there's a
backup system where, so I'm emailing
files, but then also I will either
create a Dropbox or Google drive.
And make sure that in there you
have your sub folders of here's your
logo and logo types different file
types in different color profile.
The, brand kit or style guide, any
assets that need to go along with that,
clearly, mark, any fonts used, if that's
appropriate, all those things labeled
very clearly in folders of what they are.
And everything has a place where it
lives and it's organized at clearly.
And I do more stuff.
That's print or kind
of some template stuff.
Not necessarily websites.
So I don't have that whole fancy
webpage that Jason's talking
about, but I liked that idea.
I like that idea.
Robby: Shoot Jason at Texas.
Hey, throw this on a page for me, for
Mike Brennan: me up, man.
Robby: So maybe we'll get some
examples of what those are that
we'll get Jason to share with us.
You can go everyone listening.
You can go look at one of those
and go, oh yeah, I'm going to make
sure my designer gives me one of
those pages or you just are Jason.
That's fine.
Okay.
So this is going to be a fun one.
The difference between like
print and web or screen, how do
we break that down for folks?
So they understand why are you
giving me all these versions?
Or if I go hire somebody cheap
and they just give me one
version, why is that a problem?
How would you explain to folks?
Look, when you hire me, I'm going to give
you these files in this different formats.
Here's why.
Jason Clement: It's funny because I was
thinking about that while Mike was talking
to the number of times, and I'm sure you
guys can probably all this happen when
a client calls and says, I'm trying to
open the EPS file on the smell opening.
Yup.
Yup.
So I also included, and I didn't mention
this, but I also include a little, a
file type cheat sheet, a PDF when I
packaged everything up that basically
Hey, here's, I'm gonna give you a PDF and
EPS, what, wherever those file types are.
And this is optimal place
to use these file types.
You're open EPS value you're
gonn an EPS file place it right.
You're probably not gonna
place into a document.
Another designer the yeah.
I have a little cheat sheet in there
that kind of gets them started on that.
Robby: Okay, great.
Mike, what would you add to that?
How do you explain to folks why you're
giving them these different versions
and when and where they should use.
Mike Brennan: Yeah, it really
comes down to educating.
You don't want to get too in the weeds
with people, this is rest, or this
is vector, and here's what you know.
But I think having them understand that
there are different contexts and context
is important and you don't want a file.
That's too big on a website because it's
going to load really slowly and people are
going to not wait around for it to look.
You don't want a really small and lower
resolution file logo file for prints,
because then it's going to print out.
It's going to be a little
fuzzy and pixelated, and
it's not going to look Right.
Where possible, if I have examples
of that, I try to show that so that I
say, sometimes you may have seen this,
you've come across this in a magazine.
Somebody had an oops,
somebody got fired that day.
That was not a good day for somebody.
And I said, this stuff
happens and this is why.
This is why this stuff is important.
And then also, with resolution, there's
also, color profiles, understanding
that, there's a printing process.
And so that process requires a
different type of coloring as
opposed to what on a screen.
And then there's always conversations.
Sometimes they're a little bit difficult
where it's I don't understand why
this looks one way on my screen.
And then another way
when I print this out,
What's the deal with that.
And again, really, it comes down
to just trying to educate a little
bit more and have people understand
that, you're dealing with different
processes, and different, a screen
is gonna interact with color very
different than a piece of paper.
And I think the biggest thing is
just being patient and open to having
those conversations on both sides.
For a designer, a lot of times we
have to back things up and make things
more basic because our world we're
dealing with this stuff all the time.
So it's easy to forget that.
Oh yeah.
Like they don't know what that is.
They don't understand
the context for that.
So making sure that there's patients
and again just an education.
The piece that's there.
And then on the other side, I think
it's, where obviously not, everybody's
going to be interested in, to know
different degrees of, exactly why
and all that kind of stuff, but at
least some working understanding of
why there are all these different
file types and what to do with them.
Some reference-based.
Robby: To make sure we're super
clear, what the guys are saying is
you really have two worlds that these
live in one is something on a screen.
And that's going to
usually be on a website.
Maybe you're using it in a PowerPoint
presentation or something like that.
And then there's another world.
And that's the world where you work with a
printer, anything from the printer, laser
printer in your home office or whatever.
But particularly if you're going to
work with a professional printer for
a business card or some sort of sales
sheet that you're going to get printed.
Those are two different worlds and
they require a version of your logo
that's appropriate for each world.
Jason, if you were recommending
to our audience, Hey, if you're
working with a designer on your
visual identity, I would recommend
you at least get these file types.
Can you walk us through that?
Jason Clement: Yeah, it sounds really,
sounds strange, but the number of
people that have come to me without
a vector version of their logo is
insane, or they send me a 150 pages.
JPEG that they got off
Facebook say, here's my logo.
So yeah, the number one thing
is you want to affect your file.
And again, I don't want to deep into it,
but my vector file means you can resize
it to whoever you need needed to be.
It's not going to lose this quality.
It's not going to get
junkie quote unquote.
Yup.
so I think that's the number one thing
is that you need to get in vector.
And then from that vector file, you can.
Anything else you need.
So I usually give people I think
I'd give five different file types
and then, and I think I actually say
in there you can pretty much create
anything you want from this vector
Robby: sure you get a vector
file from your designer.
That's typically going to end in dot
EPS . And you probably don't have
any way of opening that on computer.
That's fine.
That's one.
That's going to go to a printer
and you give that to Mike or Jason
or myself, and we're good to go.
We can do anything we need to do from
that as well as a professional printer.
Sometimes if they did it in a program
like Adobe illustrator, it would be.ai.
And then sometimes it's dot PDF.
So you need some version that's vector.
Mike, what's the other
version they need for screen?
Mike Brennan: Yeah.
I typically steer people towards PNG
files with a transparent background
because it's most versatile.
Sometimes people say
can you give me a JPEG?
And That's fine.
I can give people a JPEG too,
but the pitfall that people fall
into sometimes is they're so used
to a JPEG and they ask for that.
And then I have to explain the reason why
sometimes you see like your logo and this
big ugly white box around it, and then
the color of the website, like that's
because there's no transparent background.
It's fused onto a piece of paper.
It's you can't do anything with that.
That's why a PNG with a transparent
background is really important.
Robby: So those are the two.
At a bare minimum you need some
sort of vector file, probably
dot EPS, and you're totally safe.
And then if you want to use it on a
screen, you probably want at least a PNG
file, not a JPEG because that's the one
where it's transparent around your logo.
You don't get a rectangle or a square
of a solid color behind your logo.
At some point, you're going to want to
stick your logo on some other color and
not have this built-in box around it.
At a bare minimum, you should
be looking for those two things.
Okay.
Now I'm going to wait us
into the deep end real quick.
We all know it's coming.
Okay.
Here's the question.
I'm a personal brand.
You guys sound expensive to me.
Why can't I just go over to fill in
the blank Fiverr or some other place
or men or my nephew's friend and just
get my logo, whatever I need for $25.
Come on.
You guys are full of it.
Why can't I just go do that,
Jason, why can't I just go
pay $25 or $5 and get a logo.
Jason Clement: I mean for me it's about
having a relationship with that client and
learning that brand, knowing that brand
would be able to create all the other
pieces we talked about for that person.
And it's about creating a
relationship and, those questions.
We talked about getting, getting
in deep with that brand to help.
And I'm not sure, I don't want to
throw a fight and run or the bus right?
Yep.
I'm
Mike Brennan: Yes, you do.
Jason Clement: that kind of yes.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I'm not sure you get that kind of
relationship with that kind of deep
attention to detail in other situations,
Robby: Yep.
Mike, what would you add to that?
Why can't I just go get a
logo for $5, $10 or whatever?
Mike Brennan: Yeah, because you're
not just paying for a pair of hands.
It's more than that.
You're paying for brain.
You're paying for someone to think
through context like we talked about
before and making sure that you're going
to be good on the other side of this.
Sometimes people just look at
the final product, if you will.
And they say I want something
that looks professional.
I want something that looks great,
but how it's constructed is also very
important as we talked about, because if
you end up on the other side and you've
been painted into a corner, spent a
lot of time, energy, effort, and money.
On something that all of a sudden it's
useless and you need to start over or
bring it to someone who can try to fix it.
This happens a lot of times for us,
I'm sure you get Jason's shaking is
head, where people come to us and say,
Hey, I had somebody else try and create
something for me, but it just didn't work.
Can you take a look at this?
Or can we do something else with this?
Because I needed to
use it in this context.
And now I can't.
So I'm stuck.
So starting the right way.
It will save you a lot of headaches.
It'll save you a lot of expense.
It may seem like it won't because
you're thinking like if I go to
Fiverr, Hey, that's a lot cheaper,
but again, you're going to end
up having to redo stuff anyway.
So just do it right the first time.
Robby: You will likely change your brand
at best, maybe once every 10 years.
So if you look at what it takes to
swap out logos and colors and start
over, put it in the category of
literally legally changing your name.
Can you do it tomorrow?
Absolutely.
You can.
It's a big headache with costs and
expenses and red tape and government
and all that kind of stuff.
Can you then change it again?
Technically the week after that?
You can, I don't think there's a law
against how many times you can go do that.
Who does that?
Nobody, because it's
way too big of a hassle.
So we're here to tell
you, put the brakes on.
If there's one time to
not ready, shoot, aim.
This is one of those times
because you can't just go swap
this out every 18 months and go,
yeah, I didn't really like that.
So I'm going to start all over.
Any thoughts you would add to that?
Jason Clement: Yeah, agree.
It's easy to all the parts of
that extends to it's really why
big brands spend millions and
millions of dollars when right.
I'm sure they get a knot in
their stomach more Oh yeah.
Robby: Yeah.
And we've seen several examples of those
when they do that big brand, does that.
Perhaps big brand writes
a very big check for that.
We know that whoever they write
a check to didn't do a good job
of actually talking to customers.
It gets in front of customers
and what's the response.
Customers go ballistic.
They hate it.
And we've seen big brands.
The check's already been cashed
for it to the agency that did it.
And big brands literally
revert right back to the old.
Of the visual identity because
it caused such a backlash.
So these are big things
you don't do them often.
They do represent you like everywhere
it is going to represent you.
So this is one of those times.
Yes it's good to do it.
And do it.
Okay, let's talk.
Let's maybe as we look to start
to land the plane here, I want
to talk about two final things.
One, I would love to talk
briefly about websites.
I know Jason, that's your pardon?
The pun domain.
Hello.
So we'll talk just for
a second about that.
And then I'll circle around with one
kind of final question for both of us.
So Jason personal brands website.
If there are one or two, tips
you could give us about what do I
need to either plan ahead of time
before I come to you or another
web designer for my personal brand?
What does that web designer, what should
they be asking me in order to wind up
with a good personal brand websites?
Jason Clement: One thing photography yet.
I think photography is a huge thing.
It's extremely helpful and some photos
that you can talk about that are you.
Yup.
no, way that photos are taking.
I think a photography, huge thing.
The other thing that I run into
a lot is people will change
directions midstream, right?
Oh, you've already done the word.
the blueprint to my house
and kitchens in the front.
There's two bedrooms in the back.
There's two bathrooms.
then in the middle of building this
house, they said, you know what?
I really want the kitchen in the back now.
So really important to nail those things
down and have them set, make sure what
you're doing before you get weeds.
Robby: Yes, that's so helpful.
And I will reiterate, we all
know the saying a picture
is worth a thousand words.
That means a mediocre picture is like
paying Jason money to put a thousand
mediocre, put me to sleep, boring words.
So Jason, you could do a killer design.
This could be the one that Jason goes.
This is clearly the best
home page I've ever designed.
And then I give you one of those mediocre.
My, my wife took this picture of me
on an iPhone on our beach vacation.
always loved this picture.
Can you use this, Jason?
What does that do your Picasso?
Jason Clement: Yeah, it
changes the entire feel.
Robby: We're not saying bad picture.
We're saying one average takes
Jason's 11 point design on a scale
of one to 10, he hit an 11 and
now you're sitting at a solid 5.25
just by the one mediocre picture..
Then Mike you've seen it or
experienced if not in a web design
social media graphics, you've got.
Great plan I'm hiring you out to do
is put some social media templates for
me, and you've got ideas and then I
send you my mediocre to terrible logo.
Oh, as designers.
not the worst?
You're like, how do I not their logo?
I have in fact use texts in a
Yes.
Yeah.
If you ever get
Jason Clement: sick put your logo footer.
Robby: and boy, is it going to be small?
Okay.
So that goes back to what
we were just talking about.
That's why don't shortcut yourself
on the visual identity and the logo
because we are here to tell you.
you want to talk about what drags
are, work on your behalf, down to
the ground, fast, poor pictures,
and just a mediocre or bad luck.
We literally can't hide it.
We've all designed around it
as best we possibly could.
And we still can't sleep at night because
the one thing that's wrong with that
design before we have a big meeting with
you tomorrow is the logo you forced on us.
So be very careful with that.
Mike, anything else you might add
to that when it comes to websites and
what you would, what you've seen or
what you would recommend to somebody?
Mike Brennan: Yeah, I think.
Think about usability, and the
end user, because a lot of times
people get caught up in here's all
the things I want to have there.
Here's all the information.
Here's all, and it's just, it becomes
a lot of stuff and a lot of noise.
But if somebody can't navigate that
and they don't know where things
are, then you could have even
the best stuff up there, but it's
useless because nobody can find it.
Nobody knows what to do with it.
I think having.
Thought through as far as, what is your
what is your menu structure look like?
And how do people access things
go for clear over clever.
Because a lot of times, if you're too
clever, you're going to lose people.
And again, then it really
does not serve you.
It may look great or it may seem
like it's a fun thing, but again,
it's not doing what it's supposed to.
Robby: So that's tough for us.
We all admit.
We're three creatives on the podcast
and we're all dropping her head's
a little bit and admitting, if
forced between the choice between
creative or clear, go clear.
Okay.
Last question.
I want to ask us , what would
be one piece of advice you would
give a personal brand when they're
about to work with a designer?
Jason Clement: I think it's for me,
it's about the relationship thing that
talked about a couple of times today.
so I want you to be honest with me.
You can't really hurt my feelings.
It doesn't mean I'm not going to
end this zoom call and scream out.
But want you to be honest with I
want you to give detailed feedback.
I don't want you to say,
I don't like that color.
I want you to say I don't
like that color because.
Or I don't want to say I don't
like that typography because.
I want detailed feedback.
Because like job is created
just to sell our art.
Say, Hey, I did X, Y,
and Z, because of these.
So I can't, I need to be
able to justify what I did.
And if you can't tell me why you don't
like something, I can't, we can't
really have much conversation there.
And then it just becomes a back and forth.
Robby: Yeah.
Okay.
So relationship with your designer
so that you can give feedback
that actually helps the designer.
So just saying, I don't
know, I'm not sure.
I don't like that's okay.
It's just.
It's not particularly helpful.
So have the relationship where you can go
all in and say, I don't like this because.
Mike what advice would you
give on personal brand?
I'm listening in, how can I be the best
client my next designer has ever hired
or I've ever hired or worked with.
Mike Brennan: I would come back to
the whole idea of clarity because.
While someone may not understand
certain contexts and there needs to
be discussion and education around
design and what needs to happen.
I think there's times where people
aren't clear on their own goals
and their own identity, or like
what it is that they're doing.
And they're still in process on that
and they've jumped the gun to go,
Hey, now I need a logo and branding.
And then when you get in further down
into things, they start to shift some
pretty significant things can happen.
And then you're like, we've already
established a strategy moving
forward for this and a plan.
And now some pretty major
things are changing.
So I would say, make sure that you have
thought that stuff through before you go
to a designer Solid on who you are, what
you do, what you know, who you serve, how
you serve those things so that you can
bring that to the conversation, because
that is going to be key to knowing and
filling in a lot of the other information
that needs to happen from there.
That's the right time to do that
is not with the designer or as the
process of design is unfolding.
So do the homework upfront as
sometimes it's difficult as that can.
You will be better off for it.
Believe me.
Robby: Okay.
Mike, tell us where we can find you
and maybe something, a personal brand
listening and can go grab right now?
Mike Brennan: Yeah.
So for my design stuff, it's Mike Brennan
designs with an s.com and I do have social
media templates that are canvas related.
So I know canvas is a a good resource
for people who, if they don't have
the ability to hire a designer
on retainer to do ongoing design,
or maybe they have a certain team
member that they want to task out.
Kind of have it template.
I have a template that they
know that they can depend on.
So that there's consistency
we talked about before.
I've created a whole bunch of those,
whether it's for podcasting or for
Instagram, Facebook posts for personal
brands specifically you can go to digital
downloads on my website that I just
mentioned, Mike Brennan designs.com
and I have some of those for sale.
They're pretty cheap.
And again, it just
gives you a canvas link.
That is a template that then you can
plug in your own either photos, colors,
anything to customize for your own needs?
Robby: Awesome.
Okay, Jason, where can folks find you?
Jason Clement: You can find me.
I want to talk about Canberra real quick.
Am I the only one that fought tooth
Mike Brennan: Yes.
Oh my
Jason Clement: had nightmares about
Canva and I'm like, it's pretty
Mike Brennan: Yep.
Jason Clement: Really useful.
Mike Brennan: It's another tool.
It's another tool,
Robby: you're still
cool if you use canvas.
Okay.
Were we
Jason Clement: all admitted?
laugh.
the links you sent, like it's super
easy for people to use and I'm
Mike Brennan: Yes, I oh, I'm with you,
Robby: There's gotta be
something wrong with this.
It can't be this easy.
So where can they find you in
where, what could, what can they
reach out to you for help with?
Jason Clement: All right, so you
can find me at Jason dot com.
You can find some of my work on.
You can contact on there.
I love personal brands
and websites, awesome.
but I also design all
sorts of other things.
So
Yup.
I've been of book covers lately,
Robby: Yes.
You're listening to the you're the
brand book cover designer, Jason
Clement, ladies and gentlemen on the
podcast show today among other things.
So I told you've seen his work.
Fellas, this has been a lot of fun.
It's fun to have three creatives
on a podcast Hopefully this
really helps folks know...
what they need to look for in a designer,
how they need to think about their
visual identity, what to do with those
files after you've paid money for them.
So we'll summarize where you can
find these guys in the show notes.
We'll also summarize some of
those key points so that you
you have some clear takeaways.
Jason, Mike, thanks so much
for coming on the show.
Mike Brennan: Thanks Robby.
Jason Clement: Thanks for having me Robby.
Robby: Thanks for joining
me on this episode today.
It's great to have two wonderful
designers with me collaborating together.
It's great to have their help and
answer those three important questions.
What do you need to
look for in a designer?
How do you need to think about your
visual identity when working with
a designer as a personal brand?
And what to do with those files
that you have paid money for when
they give those files over to you.
If you're not already subscribed
to my 4 Wins on Friday email,
I would invite you to do that.
The feedback has been great.
I'll put a link to that in the show
notes, you can go to Robbyf.com/friday,
and you can see all of the reviews
and the feedback people are giving.
So I'd love to see you there.
That's where I put my best effort.
So I'd love to have you on that list.
You get four wins every Friday.
It takes you less than
two minutes to read.
So join me there.
If this has been helpful for
you, share it with someone.
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That is a great way to get this
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Until the next episode go and
build a life giving brand.