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Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
Travis (00:00.462)
Yep, she'll introduce you, yep.
Pam Willis (00:02.273)
Okay.
Courtney (00:04.242)
Welcome to the Foster Friendly podcast. Today, we're talking with a woman who came across a story in 2019 that would change her and her family's life forever. She learned about seven siblings who were in foster care for a year following the tragic car accident that took the lives of their parents. About to be empty nesters, Pam Willis and her husband, Gary, said yes to pursuing adoption of all seven. We'll hear much more about this incredible story and how Pam now uses her platform.
to raise awareness and inspire others to consider stepping up for kids in foster care. Pam and her husband now live in California. They are former foster parents and now parents to 12 kids, including their five adult biological kids and those seven. Pam was previously a nurse for 14 years and has been an attorney for the last 14 after getting her law degree in 2010. Their adoption story went viral, as you can imagine, on Instagram through a video that she put together.
was shared by Kristen Bell and Michael Buble among many others, propelling this story and gaining a following of more than a hundred thousand virtually overnight. Pam has appeared in People Magazine and on Kate Hudson's Sibling Reveille podcast. She was also a guest on the Red Table Talk Show with Jada Smith. Pam has used her unexpected fame for good, dedicating what little spare time she has to raise this awareness and the needs for kids in foster care.
Welcome to the podcast today, Pam Willis.
Pam Willis (01:36.257)
Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.
Travis (01:38.83)
Yeah. Very grateful.
Courtney (01:39.314)
We are excited to have you.
Pam Willis (01:42.689)
I always appreciate an opportunity to talk about our story and educate others on things that even I never knew as a foster parent. So.
Travis (01:53.934)
Yeah. Well, Courtney and I are really both looking at this conversation. So before we dive right in to have you, you know, kind of get us into the journey and the backstory of how this all started, there's a great quote by the Spanish writer, Paul Cuello, and he says, one cannot judge the beauty of a path merely by looking at its entrance. And I think of how many people see sort of entrances into adoption foster care is, you know, intimidating or it's, it's, you know, I don't see where this is going to lead.
And so therefore not even going to go down the path. Now your path is a very dramatic where this thing goes. So take us into, this just incredible adoption story. It's 2019. You just ended your time fostering. You and your husband, Gary are on the verge now of becoming empty nesters, freedom, peace and quiet. And then you saw a story on your Facebook feed that changed everything. Okay.
Pam Willis (02:49.985)
That's right. So we had fostered for about five years and we started doing that when our bio children got a little bit older. So at the time that we were thinking of stopping just for temporarily because we felt like we were going to move or maybe downsize. We had fostered for five years, had several children for over a year and they all had had either reunification or went to a family member. So.
throughout our fostering journey, we hadn't ever really been presented with the question of, do you want to adopt the children that you're fostering? So, we were foster parents and we felt wonderful with serving that role and caring for the children until reunification or until they went to another family member. So we really wanted to continue that, but our youngest of our five,
Children was graduating from high school and our second youngest was about to get married and the three older ones were already married. So yes, we were definitely getting to that empty nest point and we have a huge house that we had raised them all in. So we thought, well, we should probably downsize. I mean, it's silly to have, you know, just the two of us and maybe one or two foster children in this huge six bedroom house. So let's downsize. Let's move and.
So we started doing some things to get ready to move. And both of us were kind of hesitant. We've lived in this house for a long time. At that point, it was probably like 15 years or so. And so we just really loved that house. And we were like, I don't know if we want to move. So we're himmin' and hawin' about it. January 2019, I'm scrolling Facebook, as you said. And I just see a news story. We're sort of in between San Diego and LA, where we live. So this was a news story from San Diego.
and it had a row of children sitting all in a line. They were dressed like in their Christmas, nice Christmas outfits, because it was January, as I said. And the title said, Seven Siblings in Need of Forever Home. So right away, of course, I knew that that was a foster adoption type story. So I clicked on it because I'm always drawn to these stories, of course.
Pam Willis (05:11.137)
And I'm just thinking, my goodness, these poor children. I'm looking at all their faces as they're lined up in this photo and they're smiling. They have these smiles on their faces, but their eyes just looked so sad. And I thought to myself, gosh, this is awful because it's so hard to place seven children together anywhere, much less, I've seen like four even have a difficult time being placed together. Maybe three is.
Three is doable, but over that it's hard sometimes to keep kids together. So I just thought, gosh, no one's going to have room for them. And then just immediately I'm telling you like a bolt of lightning. The next thought was you have room for them. And it was so immediate and so convicting that I just knew that I needed to check on them and I needed to see if I would be the one that would adopt them.
Travis (05:50.926)
Hmm.
Travis (05:55.214)
Wow.
Pam Willis (06:08.161)
And so I thought, well, what am I going to tell my husband? How am I going to tell him that these children need me? I need to be their mother. It was so immediate. There was a little video, a news story that went along with it. And I watched the news story. And I'm looking at the kids. I'm kind of recognizing some of the needs, of course. Because when you've fostered long enough, you see the trauma.
Travis (06:11.694)
Ha ha. Ha ha.
Travis (06:16.718)
Ha ha.
Pam Willis (06:33.537)
behaviors or the masks that the children wear to, you know, be brave, have these brave faces. And, and the little 11 year old was just, you know, like the little mommy, and she was talking so maturely. And I thought, that one's gonna need a lot of love. And, you know, I'm going through and I'm looking at each of them, and I'm falling in love with them already as I'm watching this little video. So I thought was a Facebook post. So I just tagged my husband's name. And I thought, okay, he'll read it. And then I'll then I'll approach.
with a subject with him, because he's going to see these pictures and he's going to fall in love with these kids too. I just know it. So I waited a few hours. And I think because I think that was like on my lunch break. So after work, I went downstairs and I said, Hey, did you see that that photo that Facebook story that I tagged you in today? And he was sitting on the couch and he said, the seven children. And I said, Yeah. And and I kind of looked at him and he said,
we should adopt those kids. And it was this moment of, and then I turned on him and I was like, are you serious? You want to adopt Stephanie? I was like really expecting that I was gonna have to talk him into it. And the interesting thing that I think really prepared us was the child that we had right before this situation was a newborn and we had him for quite a while.
Travis (07:35.342)
Mmm.
Travis (07:41.55)
Ha ha ha.
Pam Willis (07:59.297)
and no one really came to visit him. They couldn't find any family members. That was the only situation where it was even brought into the back of our minds that maybe this child might need someone to adopt them. But then they ended up finding a family member. And so that thought came forward for a moment for us, but it quickly disappeared because we knew that they had found a family member. And so we prepared ourselves for that situation, which is always difficult, of course. But.
I think that was sort of the, you know, God sort of preparing us for the idea, you know, that idea wasn't out of the question. And so immediately I called the phone number that was listed on the news story. It was the news station and they do, you know, this feature now and then. So they had sort of a way set up to take these calls. And I called and I gave my information and then they said, you're...
Travis (08:33.294)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Pam Willis (08:56.929)
you're already a foster parent. let me put you through, you know, to this person. And, and so I got to talk to probably a few more people than I would have if I, you know, I was in the state because they said thousands of people called. And, but I said, you know, I'm in the state, we have a large house, we're already, you know, certified resource family. And so they were like, Okay, okay. So I kind of felt like, okay, I'm on the list, you know, I'm on the I'm on the
Travis (09:09.678)
Wow.
Travis (09:24.238)
Mmm.
Pam Willis (09:25.153)
But at the same time, you know when they said thousands of people have called I kind of was like, okay You know, I guess they'll be they'll be taken care of I feel better I'm glad so many people called it's gonna work out for them It's because I would have never thought in a million years that out of us, you know thousands of people that they would say you're the one we want, you know I just it didn't cross my mind even though I knew in my heart like I really should be their mom
Travis (09:47.534)
Hmm.
Travis (09:53.486)
Hahaha.
Pam Willis (09:54.849)
The next morning I woke up, I couldn't stop thinking about them. You know, I went and watched the video again. I looked at the picture every day for the next couple days. And then I called again, just want to check on them. Make sure you have my name. Make sure you have my information. They put me through to someone else and and then to someone else. So I actually got to talk to one of the social workers. And she was really nice. We had a great conversation. And, you know, I hung up and I thought, well, how am I going to?
not look like this crazy person. I want to call every day. I was at this point, I was like, I need to help these children. I need to make sure and know that they're okay. And I really owned the issue. And it wasn't very long before they started calling me back and started talking to me asking me if they could, the social workers could meet with me. And so that went on for a couple of months and then they allowed us, they matched us, you know, to say, you can meet the children. And so we met them in March.
Travis (10:25.262)
Hahaha.
Pam Willis (10:51.553)
So the news story we saw in January, we met them in March. We were in love with them immediately. They moved in in June. As soon as the last day of school, they moved right in. And the rest was history.
Travis (11:01.646)
huh.
Courtney (11:06.322)
I'm just curious for that time period, where were they? Where were they in that waiting period?
Pam Willis (11:11.425)
They had been in a foster home for a year and for their and their story, they had actually lost both of their parents in a car accident. They were all in the accident together. And we didn't know this at the beginning of the story. That wasn't part of the news. But they had all been together in the car and they were actually traveling, planning to leave the state. So they just had like a U -Haul trailer.
and all the kids were packed in the car, but there weren't any seats in the car. So they were all just on the floorboards of the like a SUV. And they, they rolled the vehicle rolled out like in the desert areas outside of San Diego. And so the parents were killed instantly on the crash site and all of the children were injured. They all went to the hospital. The older ones were.
Travis (11:42.03)
wow.
Pam Willis (12:05.313)
in the hospital for a cou some pretty serious injur one thankfully weren't as all had some sort of injur bone or scratches or bru were seriously injured. once they all got out of the been sort of at the group, there. They found a fost them all.
it wasn't an ideal situation because they were kind of, you know, cramped in there, but it was ideal in the fact that, you know, they were together. They were together. They didn't have to be separated. And, they started, you know, looking for someone to take them, but in the family, you know, in their family. But the problem was the parents had both grown up in foster care and aged out and the parents didn't have really family connections at all or anyone that.
Travis (12:54.894)
Hmm.
Pam Willis (12:59.969)
anyone that could really take them. And so it was, it was just a, I think for them, they must've felt so alone in the world, you know, just, just the seven of them. So I can't imagine them being separated and feeling like, okay, I lost my parents and losing, you know, whatever siblings have to be separated out. So I'm just, I'm so grateful that they were able to stay together, even though it wasn't the best situation, they were at least together. I think that's all that mattered to them at that point.
Travis (13:02.414)
Hmm.
Travis (13:07.118)
Right.
Travis (13:19.054)
it's huge.
Courtney (13:29.042)
That is awesome, very rare.
Pam Willis (13:31.137)
Yeah, right.
Travis (13:31.182)
Right. I was going to say, I think of the statistics are something like 50 % of kids put into foster care and sibling groups are separated. And you have to think from a certain number up, it's got to be even higher. I mean, seven to all be together. Wow. Incredible.
Pam Willis (13:37.729)
Right.
Pam Willis (13:41.409)
Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. So it really was and they had been there just like by the time they moved in with us, I think it was exactly a year that they had been in foster care and they really wanted them to finish that school year. So they it was really kind of the only time they had ever lived in the same place long enough to like go through a full school year at the same school. And the
The oldest one was graduating from eighth grade, so he had a ceremony, and then the second oldest was graduating from sixth grade. So they both had these, you know, big momentous occasions that the social workers really felt, and I agreed totally that they should, you know, they should participate in. So we just drove down. It was like an hour and a half. We drove down every weekend and, you know, took them out to the park and spent time with them as much as we could. And we called them during the week and just started developing our relationship.
And by the time they were moving in, they were like, when can we live here? When can we live here? So it was really nice. It was definitely a smooth transition for them and one that they were ready for at the time, which I think worked out in their favor.
Travis (14:59.534)
Did where along the lines, I mean, you get more into like your own biological kids as they converge into the story, but like at the time, I mean, your friends, other family, though your adult kids, I mean, is everyone going like mom and dad, like, hold on here. What's, I mean, or was it more, we know you and this is what, why would we be surprised or.
Courtney (14:59.57)
Incredible.
Pam Willis (15:11.617)
you
Pam Willis (15:20.481)
Yeah, probably a little bit of both.
probably a little bit of both that, you know, you're crazy, but also we know you and if anyone's gonna do it, you're gonna do it kind of thing. I mean, understand that these all of these people are the people that watched me with my five children, my youngest started kindergarten and I decided let's go to law school, you know, so that's kind of, you know, they were just kind of like, okay, you know, but
Travis (15:45.582)
That's right, yeah. Yeah.
Pam Willis (15:50.337)
They had different concerns, different opinions. My older children, the oldest was very practical, like financially, is this you're gonna be okay with your retirement and everything? And I said, we'll be fine, we'll be totally fine. And so he said, okay, this is what you wanna do.
And remember, they had been still, even though they were out of the home, they were still around the foster care. And so anytime there was a new child in the home, they all, every single one of them just embraced that child as family. You know, they would walk in and there'd be a new child there and they would automatically be, you know, hello, what's your name? And, you know, they just knew the drill. They all have beautiful hearts and they all were just very accepting of.
anyone who was there for however long. And so that piece of their heart was definitely open to having other members of our family be for however long they were there. And many of them, like I mentioned, were there for over a year. So it wasn't usually a temporary, very temporary thing, like a week or so. It was a year and another year and another year. So.
Travis (16:59.15)
Yep.
Pam Willis (17:07.937)
the you know, the my girls who are my third and fourth children. They were of course like, my gosh, you have to take you know, their their maternal instincts for just like mine. We have to take those babies. They they have to be in our family. And my my oldest daughter, she's my third child, she said something that was so sweet and so touching to me that I've never forgotten it. She said, Mom, we had the best childhood like,
Travis (17:18.75)
haha haha
Pam Willis (17:37.761)
you guys are the greatest parents. She's like, why would I deny someone else of having that experience? And I was just brought to tears. I thought, my goodness, you know that what a sweet thing to say and what a sweet, sweet way to look at it, you know, to think that, you know, if I had a good childhood that, you know, someone else deserves that too. And that always still brings tears to my eyes having her say that, you know. So they were they were very
Travis (18:05.71)
Mm.
Pam Willis (18:07.361)
kind and sweet and accepting immediately. You know, as soon as they kind of checked in with us, like, you sure? Okay, you're crazy. Okay. They were like, all right, let's do it. Let's do it. So it was wonderful to have that acceptance. And, you know, my family really just rallied around them and got prepared, you know, to accept them into the family.
Travis (18:14.606)
Check, check.
Courtney (18:14.958)
I'm going to go.
Courtney (18:31.378)
That's awesome. Yeah, and so helpful for you guys and for the kids to feel that welcoming and support. I'd love for you to speak into a little bit, you know, with 400 ,000 kids in foster care in the United States and 100 ,000 of them waiting to be adopted. You know, like you said, you guys hadn't really, really thought about adoption before that. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this haven't really thought about it. Maybe you could even speak into the empty nest or thing because I've been, as a foster mom and as a foster care recruiter, I have seen some of our absolute
Pam Willis (18:32.257)
Yeah.
for sure. For sure. Yeah.
Pam Willis (18:49.889)
Ready?
Courtney (19:00.946)
best foster homes be empty nesters that have kind of walked those shoes already of parenting and have that experience. You know, most of the kids waiting for adopted are sibling groups or youth or kids with some medical needs. And all these parents, they've already done it. So can you speak into that a little bit, being an empty nester and maybe encourage others?
Pam Willis (19:10.529)
Mm -hmm.
Pam Willis (19:19.777)
Yeah, what I really found is that doing this sort of the second time around, because really we were, you know, pretty complete of raising that first set. And we really did start all over again. The youngest of the seven was two. So we had a two, three, four, five and six year old. And then the older two, you know, they were graduating sixth and eighth grade. So what I found, my husband and I both say the same thing, you know, we're.
we're a little more relaxed in that, I guess, when you're raising your first children, you have these standards that you think, my gosh, you've got a C in chemistry, that's it. You're never getting into a good college. Your life is going the wrong way. And you have these thoughts like, you've got to keep them on this path so that they can achieve.
Travis (19:59.726)
Mm -hmm.
Alright.
Pam Willis (20:14.721)
some, you know, something great in their lives. And of course, you know, they're people, they they do what they want to do. You can't control them as much as you can. And so I had children who said, Nope, not going to college. And I had one that went into the military. And I had one that, you know, was a missionary for a while. And so at that point, they my older three, and the fourth was about to get married, they, they had great lives. And they hadn't done exactly what I thought they were.
Travis (20:21.742)
Right. Mm -hmm.
Pam Willis (20:44.225)
going to do or supposed to do or what I was supposed to push them towards. Actually, probably none of them had done it the way I thought it was going to be. And so I was able to sort of sit back and say, you know what? It's going to be OK. I don't have to make their path to some perfect outcome. I just need to foster their own self -worth and their own ability.
to choose for themselves what makes them happy in life and I need to love them and help them heal and the rest will come naturally as they, you know. So I think that's the benefit of doing it as an older parent because you can sort of look back and say, okay, well, so far these guys are okay, you know. So far maybe I've done a good job. And so I think it helps you a little bit realize that.
Travis (21:32.478)
Yeah. Mm -hmm.
Pam Willis (21:38.561)
You know, you can relax on the day to day and not be so stressed out about, you know, the report card or whatever it may be.
Travis (21:41.518)
Hmm.
Travis (21:47.534)
That's a really good point. And I think that's a good reminder too, of just for people that are looking to be foster parents or adopting from foster care, that whole thing of just the start of it, just being the place of stability and love, you know, and like you're saying, letting them be who they are and grow and make mistakes. But I think there's that, that sort of back to that quote about the trail, you know, it's like, well, man, we got to have all this together before we embark on the journey or I've got to have, you know, I mean, yes, trainings, all that's important and knowledge.
but it can also be the very thing that's stopping you from even starting.
Pam Willis (22:21.025)
Right, and I know that it can be intimidating because you, you know, there's always the stories out there and sort of the stigma that maybe foster child might be difficult to care for. And what I found really was that as long as I was educated and understood trauma and childhood trauma, that you could almost always look at a, you know, a behavior or something that the child was exhibiting.
in the lens of trauma, it definitely doesn't feel the same way as if your child's throwing a temper tantrum and they've had everything they've ever needed and what do you have to be so upset about? You really see the basic needs of the child that maybe hadn't been fully met, like just safety and security and self -worth. And those things, when you see those things through,
you see their behaviors that they exhibit, which, you know, for us, we had expectations of a lot of behaviors with these kids. And we really didn't end up having as much as we thought. We thought, gosh, they've been through just a horrible time. You know, they had bounced from home to home. They had been homeless. Their parents had, you know, drug issues. They were exposed to domestic violence and drugs and alcohol and all these.
awful things and we thought, gosh, they're good. They're going to need so much, you know, work. And, but it wasn't work. It was just being a family and being consistent and being, you know, that safe place and being, being there. That really was the biggest part of their healing. It wasn't something magical that I had to do to, you know, change behaviors. All of the trauma and the understanding of the trauma helped me.
you know, view what they were going through in a certain lens, but it didn't necessarily change drastically the way I had to parent, you know, which I thought, you know, was it was really interesting to me as I as I was going through it. And I still say all the time that I learn every day, my my teenagers, they're now 18 and 16. And
Pam Willis (24:42.561)
They teach me so much because they have a lot of memory of the things that they went through. But in our home, we've always been very open for them to talk about anything and everything that they want to talk about. Thankfully, I was able to find a Facebook page that their mother had had. So I downloaded all the pictures and I gave them photo albums, you know, and so they all have.
Travis (25:04.942)
Hmm.
Pam Willis (25:07.169)
photos and and we could talk about their first mommy and daddy all the time as much as they wanted to. You know, I gave them a frame if they wanted to put it in their room. They could put their picture of their, you know, first mommy and daddy in their room and and just really made it okay to talk about absolutely anything they wanted to talk about. And so because that's been our
our way of doing things. My teenagers are now very open and able to articulate things so well as they go through these growth challenges. I think they're even better able to articulate what they're feeling and thinking than my first set of children was because they didn't have to necessarily maybe process through it all. It was just kind of like, this time in my life is hard and it sucks and whatever.
Travis (25:50.094)
Yeah.
Travis (25:56.846)
Hmm. Right.
Pam Willis (25:58.209)
now my boyfriend broke up with me, boohoo. But when you're viewing it through a lens of someone who's had so much loss in their life, and so much, you know, pain and relationships haven't always been wonderful, you know, they gain this insight because you start talking and you have these conversations. And so they teach me every single day, they teach me so much. And I feel like I'm just gathering.
everything they say because I still have the other five to be teenagers. So I have a lot of ways to go with that. And that knowledge, I think, is so useful. So they're just, they're such a blessing. I mean, it's the biggest blessing that I never expected that was waiting for us.
Travis (26:26.574)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Courtney (26:43.41)
Yeah. Definitely have a mother's heart, just the way you speak and everything. I always tell people, the age old saying, they just need love. It's like, well, they don't just need love, but the home environment. I think that's the biggest key, that what you create, that safe, loving place where they feel safe, they know they're safe, and they know that they're loved and they belong. Yeah.
Pam Willis (26:46.689)
Mm.
Travis (26:48.558)
Ha ha.
Pam Willis (27:04.513)
Right, right. Yeah. And it really is the most important thing. Even for my foster children, who I never knew how long they would stay, as quickly as I could, I would get a photo and put it in a frame and hang it on the wall next to the rest of our photos. Because to them, I wanted them to feel like I'm real. I'm here. I'm part of your family. And little things like that that are so simple that help a child just feel
Travis (27:04.686)
Yeah.
Travis (27:25.518)
Hmm, right. That's.
Pam Willis (27:33.985)
wanted and worthy. There's so many great tips that I've picked up along the way of fostering and reading. I read everything. I read all kinds of things to try to understand. And my background as a nurse, of course, with learning about childhood development and things like that, it's just always been something that I'm interested in. So it helps a lot.
Travis (27:41.934)
Ha ha ha ha.
Travis (27:58.734)
Yeah. Yeah. Great point to the ongoing learning. I love you saying that of just that here you are. Some people look at you and go, wow, you're, you're some guru. That's just you to do what you're doing. And then formerly foster parent, you know, an attorney now, I mean all this stuff, but like what you're saying is you're still learning and still using a community to, you know, get, get ideas and bounce ideas back from other foster and adoptive parents. That's really cool. That's really.
Pam Willis (28:28.673)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's good for the children to hear me say that too. You know, I say that to them, like you're learning, you're going through this, but guess what? I've never been through this with a person who's had your experiences. And so each time I go through this with a different child, I learn a little bit more because everyone goes through these things differently. And I think that probably gives them a sense of importance, you know.
Travis (28:28.846)
An important part is that ongoing.
Pam Willis (28:57.729)
I'm not looking at you like my sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth child. I'm looking at you as what are your individual experiences and what can you and I work through together and learn together? So I always say, you know, I make mistakes, I'm learning too. You're learning, I'm learning. And we sort of get through things together in that way, just being open and honest about it.
Courtney (29:24.626)
So what about your support, you know, adding seven kids to your already five that were adults, but still, I mean, that's a big change. What was your community and what is your community like? Your family, your friends, your neighbors, what does that look like and how are you supported to keep going?
Pam Willis (29:40.065)
Let me tell you that I never expected the support that I got from people that just really wanted to help. There's so many people that have a heart for children in foster care, but maybe aren't in a position at that time in their life to foster. I had people calling me saying, can I come do laundry for you? I mean, they were bringing me.
meals, you know, which I didn't expect or ask for anything, just friends from church, who they were saying, what can we do? Is there something that people want to help you? What can they do for you? And I was kind of like, well, you know, there's not a lot because at first they were like, do you need us to babysit or something? And for me, I was trying really hard to, you know, give the stability to the kids. So I didn't want to leave them yet at that point. But they were kind of digging like, what can we do? It ended up.
they came over like day after day, different people came over and helped me like sort through all of these clothing donations that they had and you know, sort sizes of clothes and, and shoes and things for them and fix their rooms, you know, put together bunk beds and all of these things that had to be done to, you know, get their their belongings put away and feel like things were settled for them.
while still giving them the attention that they needed in those first few days because that time of transition, of course, is best if I'm right there and available to answer questions or soothe any concerns. And so having these people come and help do all of these other things so that I could focus on the children during that time was just incredible. And I didn't realize that it was something I needed, but as it was happening, I just felt so blessed. And so that's...
That was the support that I had from my church, my community and my church. And as far as my family, my immediate family, they were just, as I mentioned, very warm and accepting. And any contact that they had with the kids was just kind and gentle. And they understood all of the way that we would do things when a new child would come into our home. So this was similar because we never treated a foster
Pam Willis (31:59.297)
Placement any differently than you know, you're here to stay. We don't know for how long we're not going to treat you as a temporary person, you know so it was it was it was something that they knew how to do and they did it beautifully and and everyone really felt accepted I think and felt felt comfortable in the home and the kids, you know pretty immediately started just running around like they they've been there forever and going outside to play in the backyard and
Travis (32:03.662)
Mm -hmm.
Pam Willis (32:28.225)
and things like that. So it was really nice.
Travis (32:33.198)
Yeah, it's I mean, I just can't shake the image of thinking what you said earlier of the the picture. This is switching topics a little bit, but back to just pitch the, you know, like you just said, like so they feel like they're not just temporarily, you know, sort of family members. But even if they will be, you know, you don't know, they don't know their story of how much longer if you're in foster care, that'll be. But even just the image of you having that photo on the wall, when you think of kids in foster care who I always think of, there's
in this season where their story is swirling around like so much uncertainty. What's going to happen next? Am I going home? Will I be adopted? Will my parents do what they need for the judge to go home? Switching schools. What's all that? Even that simple like that's on the wall is a grounding thing to like visually see. I'm here with these guys. And I just that's such a beautiful tip. I just I my mind went back to that as I'm thinking, even like community support and.
Pam Willis (33:15.425)
Right.
Pam Willis (33:24.481)
Right.
Travis (33:32.046)
them feeling supported and anchored.
Pam Willis (33:32.161)
Yeah. So the other thing, the other piece of that was I would always make two copies. And I would give them a copy and say, when you go to your visit, you know, you can give this to mommy and daddy. And so it never was like, you're here, you're mine. I'm, you know, I now have a photo of you, because I wanted to be cognizant of that as well. We don't know what the outcome will be. So I wanted them to know that.
Look, here's this picture of you. I love you and you're important enough to be on my wall. But also here's a picture for you to give to mommy and daddy and they can have it on their wall too. You know, you never tell children what the outcome is going to be because you never know, you know, and you're always advised as foster parents not to really discuss the case with especially with little ones because you don't know if the parents are going to be able to work their plan and what's going to happen. But always being cognizant.
that yes, you're part of our family for as long as you need to be part of our family. And if that's five years or six years or one month, however long that is, you're just as important as anyone else.
Courtney (34:37.586)
Beautiful.
Travis (34:39.47)
So, yeah, it is. So, thinking about the, so, and this podcast is foster friendly. And so as Courtney was asking about support, I mean, this is, you've just detailed it in your own story, what that looks like for everyone to feel like they do have a role. They have a place they can help. And you're an ongoing living example of that in your story of where, whether it's your church community or.
just friends and everyone sees how they can fit in and together we can do this together. I want to kind of, as we're kind of closing to the final turn on this conversation, going back to your story. So I look at like you have this significant, like initial part of taking in seven kids and the dramatic nature of that. And my gosh, the other part that's dramatic then is what then comes along after that in terms of,
Pam Willis (35:27.872)
Mm -hmm.
Travis (35:35.47)
your family coming together, your daughter has an idea about a video to make and just take us into, take us into where then this story kind of blows up then in terms of, you know, and how that developed. I know that's could be a whole podcast, but just the snapshot of that.
Pam Willis (35:40.705)
Yeah.
Pam Willis (35:46.465)
Yeah.
Pam Willis (35:50.241)
Right?
Well, remember that they came to live with us in the middle of 2019. So what happened in 2020? We had everyone on lockdown. We were homeschooling seven children. We were, you know, all stuck in this house together, which at the time was like, my goodness, how am I going to make this work? And when we got through it, it really ended up being the best thing we could have had happen because we were able to.
really kind of what they call cocoon with them, you know, as you're adopting and bringing children into your home and allowing that, you know, family unit to develop. That really happened during the time where we were in the pandemic and couldn't go to school and things like that. So that as a sort of preface to the next part, I will say, I think assisted our bonding so much and possibly, you know, we bonded more quickly because we were together.
all the time rather than me having to send them all to school every day and not see them all day long. I was there, we were schooling them. Thankfully we had a nanny who was willing to come in and out during that time because that was the hugest blessing to us to have that help. But my older daughter is an influencer on social media and so she sort of knows all the tricks, you know, and she said,
Mom, you should make an Instagram page and share your story. It's such a great story. And I said, I would love to talk about foster care and adoption and all of these things that I never knew. Like you mentioned 400 ,000 children waiting. I will tell you that the five years that I fostered, I never knew that. I never knew that statistic at all. I think because when there are great foster homes, the social workers don't wanna...
Pam Willis (37:46.689)
fill those homes with adoptions and not have anywhere. Sometimes it feels like that. But I think, you know, it just they they knew that they could count on me as a foster parent. And no one ever said, Hey, by the way, there's 400 ,000 children that could really use a wonderful home. So I think that's a hugely important message to get out there. And that was something I wanted to share as well.
Travis (37:49.998)
Ha ha.
Pam Willis (38:12.033)
And so I thought I'm gonna do this Instagram page. I had to learn Instagram. I was only kind of Facebook, you know, I didn't know all this stuff. And my daughter was, you know, she knew how to make all these cute little TikToks and things like that. And there was something popular at the time that was going around where you would sort of like jump up and down and there'd be a transition, you know, every time you hit the ground, you'd be in a different.
Travis (38:19.246)
No.
Pam Willis (38:38.913)
So she said, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna do like your whole life in, I don't know how long those things are, like 45 seconds or something. And she said, you met when you were in the 80s. So you're gonna dress like you're in the 80s and then you're gonna jump up and down and you're gonna be married. And then you're gonna jump up and down, you're gonna be a nurse and dad's in the military. And so we did this whole thing. And at the very end, we jump up and down and we land in the seven kids land with us.
Travis (38:46.03)
Ha ha.
Pam Willis (39:06.401)
And so it kind of just told our story really quickly and really basically that we had raised these five and there were empty nesters and then here came these seven. And she set it to music, it was cute. And if you see it, if you ever find it and see it, imagine my daughter in the background trying to get her parents to, she's like clapping for like one, two, jump. She's doing this, we're like being thrilled.
Travis (39:18.99)
Ha ha.
Thank you.
Travis (39:26.51)
Ha ha.
Pam Willis (39:35.585)
I do this thing perfectly and it turned out so cute and I thought that's just adorable I'm gonna post that my my little group of followers of like, you know, I don't even know maybe 5000 or something at a time, you know, they'll just love this and I woke up the next morning and I had like, you know 50 ,000 60 ,000 70 ,000 and just kept going and I was like what is happening? The girls are sending it to me. They're like mom it's got
Travis (39:39.79)
Yeah, it's...
Travis (39:48.142)
Haha.
Pam Willis (40:04.097)
a million views. And then the girls are the ones that said, you know, these are the people that are sharing it. And this is what's happening. And it just the story just blew up. And I thought, you know, this is the time that I can take this moment of my you know, five minutes of fame or whatever you want to call it to utilize that moment to share with others what is out there and what joy can be brought.
Travis (40:05.934)
Dang.
Pam Willis (40:33.185)
from going through this process, this adoption process that a lot of people don't even know is available and that there are children that they can bring into their home and just enrich their lives, enrich their lives as parents, I'm saying, and enrich the children's lives too. But I mean, our lives have been so enriched. It's definitely been a mutual thing. And so utilizing that platform.
is my passion and I love any time of course that I'm invited to share like this on a podcast or when I can share on my story. I think now I settled at about like 150 ,000 followers ish and I basically just post on my story every day, the day to day stuff that we're doing and people are so kind, they're so sweet and sometimes they'll message me and say, I followed you, you know, since the beginning.
Travis (41:15.598)
Hmm.
Pam Willis (41:25.601)
But the greatest thing is that I've had several people message me and say, how do I do this? How do I get started? How do I become a foster parent? Or how can I adopt from foster care? And I'll usually just stop whatever I'm doing. I'll say, OK, where do you live? And I'll look up their county. And I'll say, OK, here's some agencies. This is what you're going to do. You're going to call and find out if there's an orientation. And I just sort of try to just give them the very beginnings of it.
Because I remember when I even wanted to foster, I was like, so how does one go about this? I just didn't know. I didn't know anything. It's kind of confusing because there's private agencies, or you can go through your county, or what do I do? What's best? And it's not necessarily always really easy to follow or easy to understand. So I wanted to be that.
Travis (42:09.198)
Hmm.
Pam Willis (42:18.689)
you know, voice for people and that safe place to come and ask questions. And I've had followers come back and say, you know, we took our first placement and I've had followers come back and say we are adoption is final. And it just like every single child, you don't have to take seven, every single one is, is important. And every single child that has found a home, it's worth every
Travis (42:31.854)
Hmm.
Travis (42:37.582)
Right. Hmm.
Pam Willis (42:45.504)
everything I've done, you know, as far as trying to take extra time to put these things out on social media. Of course, when you put yourself out there, people, you know, there's always the negative people, you have to go through that kind of ignore the rude comments. But it was worth it. It was worth it because I know that there have been some children adopted even just from my story being shared. And that that's the biggest blessing of all.
Travis (42:53.406)
Yeah. All right. Yeah.
Travis (43:10.446)
That's awesome. There's a great line, the world is changed by your example, not your opinion. And we have so many opinions in this world that, and here you are, you're a living example that, yeah, I love that. I love how you're using your.
Pam Willis (43:21.265)
Thanks. I'm really excited about it and we have some things coming up too. I can't talk a lot about it, but we're going to have some more demonstration of what our family is like in a more public forum pretty soon. Something that others can tune in and watch. So, you guys don't have to skip because I haven't told you.
Travis (43:37.45)
very cool. Very cool.
Courtney (43:39.314)
I just see what that is.
Travis (43:44.11)
Cliffhanger for everybody. There we go. It's a good teaser. Yeah. wow. Nice.
Courtney (43:45.362)
Yeah.
Courtney (43:49.298)
Yeah.
Pam Willis (43:50.913)
It's all coming together. It's been actually a really interesting journey. You know, when that when I got the calls from all these reporters, you know, People magazine and the newspaper and and you know, all these people wanted me on their podcast, which was wonderful. I really wanted to do it all. I couldn't do all of it at the same time, but I was a bit overwhelmed. And, you know, producers calling, we want to make a movie, you know, all these things. And it was just like, what do I I'm not.
And you know, like I still work full time. I didn't have a lot of time to do it. But I've always wanted to continue that, that public face because I want to continue advocating. And that above all is what drives me to continue to put myself out there. And, you know, I've never like made any money on Instagram. I know people can make money and stuff. Well, actually, I shouldn't say never. I've done like a couple little things.
Travis (44:21.294)
Alright.
Travis (44:45.518)
Ha ha.
Pam Willis (44:48.865)
here and there, you know, my daughter's an influencer. So she's like, you could do this, you know, little things. And then the kids get money for, you know, going to the zoo or something, we take a video and they're like, Hey, we're rich. But, but, you know, that's not my reason. My reason is I put myself out there every single day, because I know that it's important to continue getting the word out. And, you know, when you guys post America's kids belong or
Travis (44:49.326)
So...
Travis (44:58.35)
Right. Yeah.
Pam Willis (45:15.393)
any any of the states that post I always try to share those posts and those sweet kids because of course I want to take them all. I can't they won't let me take any more. Can you imagine? They say your home is full. I know I have to I have to do other things. So here we are.
Courtney (45:22.098)
Yeah.
Travis (45:25.23)
Thanks for doing that. We're gonna stop you now, okay?
Courtney (45:25.306)
you
Yeah.
Courtney (45:42.418)
Well, you're just obviously a genuine, lovable, down -to -earth mom, you can tell, and somebody that people easily fall in love with, your story and the inspiration of it. And really, I think part of what I heard today too from you is you're not some, I mean, you've become kind of famous through this, but you're not some mega superstar. I mean, you're just a mom, and you guys are just a family, and other people can do this as well. You know?
Pam Willis (45:59.393)
Right, right.
Pam Willis (46:04.065)
Yes, I say that all the time. I'm just a normal person. People say no, you're not. Okay, I'm a normal person who took seven, but you can be a normal person and take one or two, you know, and still make a huge difference. So yes, that's an important piece of it to share. Thank you for saying that because I do want people to just look at me like, you know, there I'm not. I'm not on some pedestal. I'm just a normal person who wanted to help and wanted to foster and
these opportunities were put in front of me and God blessed us enough to be able to manage that and have the space and have the room. But it wasn't ever anything that I thought of myself as, I am really a great person. I think I'm gonna go out and it just wasn't like that. It was just being open to what God laid before us and having that opportunity to
Travis (46:52.334)
Haha, right.
Travis (46:59.182)
Hmm.
Pam Willis (47:03.393)
to jump in and say, let's do it. Let's do it for the sake of these children who really need you. Yeah.
Travis (47:09.422)
Well said. Well said. Yeah, well, I mean, that's kind of a great segue to the end. We actually have some news from America's Kids that we can say. So Courtney can tell us all about some that actually will involve you as well, Pam. So we'll talk about that to close this out.
Courtney (47:19.802)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Pam Willis (47:19.905)
Yeah!
Pam Willis (47:25.569)
That's awesome, I'm excited.
Courtney (47:27.986)
Yeah, we're just so, I can't get enough of you and I love your story. And we love at AKB that you're willing to say yes, even to some of these small things. But we do have a webinar coming up here on September 10th at 7 .30 PM Eastern. And Pam is going to be joining us as our keynote speaker, sharing her story and some more tips and tools for foster care adoption. And we'll have another foster adopt mom share and a previous caseworker on there as well. We really want people to understand.
Travis (47:30.734)
huh.
Pam Willis (47:31.073)
Aww.
Courtney (47:56.498)
What does that process look like? Can hear some great stories like this and even share about our I Belong Project, which shares the faces and the voices of youth that are waiting across the United States, waiting to be adopted like these seven that you so graciously welcomed into your home. So yeah, we're looking forward to that. And if you want to register and join us for that webinar, other webinars we have, the link to register will be in our show notes or you can always go to our website as well. America's Kids Belong. No, AM Kids Belong, right?
Travis (48:25.294)
It's America's kids belong. Yeah. Yeah. Don't worry. Yeah, it's Friday. It's been a long week for all of us. So, yeah.
Pam Willis (48:25.857)
Mm -hmm.
Courtney (48:26.514)
Thank you everyone.
americaskidslong .org. But, Pam, again, thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being willing. And just tell us, how can people follow you if they're not already? How can they follow you? How can they find out more and follow your journey?
Pam Willis (48:34.017)
Yeah.
Pam Willis (48:43.009)
sure. Sure. So I came up with the name when I was trying to figure out, you know, something cute to call it. And I really felt like it was our second chance at parenting. And it was their second chance at life. I mean, they almost lost their lives in that accident. And so we named ourselves Second Chance Seven. And that's the name of my Instagram.
It's all spelled out second and I think a dot and chance and then the number seven, but I'm sure you'll find it if you if you type in Pam Willis to that's me and we'd love to have you just follow our day to day silly journey right now. We're renovating our house and so our houses, you know, everyone's invested in my construction in my home and it's just normal stuff. We're just doing normal stuff and being being a big family and we just we just love sharing.
Travis (49:28.718)
Ha ha.
Pam Willis (49:37.6)
and answering questions for others and just being out there. So thanks.
Travis (49:42.446)
Very cool. Yeah. And we'll also include any other links that we can to any of your stories, you know, that featured in like today or definitely the Instagram video, which is really, you see why it went viral. I mean, it's, yeah, that's pretty good. So people just don't know. Maybe there was take 20 that, you know, we didn't. So yeah, behind the scenes.
Pam Willis (49:51.489)
Yeah, my daughter's a good director, I think.
Courtney (49:51.506)
Pretty great.
Courtney (50:01.778)
I'm sorry.
Pam Willis (50:02.229)
yeah, for sure. For sure.
Travis (50:05.582)
Well, Pam, you are the best. I'm with Courtney. We're just so grateful to have you and just your humility, but just also your accessibility and just lending your life as an example in a story and then helping others as well. I mean, it's just unbelievable. So thank you so much for being an inspiration to so many.
Pam Willis (50:20.609)
Of course, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. I really enjoy it. And I'm looking forward to the webinar.
Travis (50:28.238)
All right, good having you.
Pam Willis (50:30.145)
Thanks.