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This is the podcast for us dance teachers balancing our teaching job with other jobs, commitments, and just life in general! We don't need to know how to run the whole studio, work with students 20+ hours a week, or win big at competitions; we just want practical advice and real conversations about how to be the best dance teachers we can be with the little time we have with our students. Join Maia on the casual dance teacher's podcast and in the casual dance teacher's network on Facebook.
Maia
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Casual Dance Teachers podcast. This is your host, Maia. Many of you know by now, of course, this is the Casual Dance Teachers podcast, and I'm typically talking to all dance educators, but specifically focusing on dance educators that would consider themselves casual.
That can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but today's episode is one that I think is important for the casual dance teacher, because thankfully, over the past few years, I've had the opportunity to just dip my toe into the world of dance competitions, and I realized that they can be a fantastic resource for all dancers, regardless of their level or the number of hours that they dance each week. Now, I'm certainly not an expert in the dance competition field, and I know that there are a lot of podcasts out there that already cover this subject in depth, so what we don't need today is another take on how to succeed as a dance competition studio or win lots of awards, but I think it's worth exploring how casual dance teachers can prepare their students for a competition. And I'm so glad that I found a fantastic guest with so much experience to share with us today.
Today's guest is Olivia Lou, whose dance career includes over 17 years of teaching and choreography experience. She has had the honor of touring nationally and internationally with multiple contemporary dance companies, and has led dance departments as a production manager, prop manager, and writing and implementing curriculum for jazz technique. Her experience also includes adjudicating competitions and auditions.
Olivia is based in Virginia, but travels throughout the US teaching masterclasses, private lessons both in person and virtually, and as a guest choreographer. So Olivia has so much insight to share with us today, I can't wait to pick her brain and talk to someone who has a lot more experience in this field than I do. Without further ado, welcome Olivia, thank you so much for being here.
Olivia
Oh, thank you for having me.
Maia
Yeah, so I've told you a little bit already about my background, but just for the people listening to give some background, how we got in contact and how we came to have this conversation. I have taken a couple pieces to competition with dancers that I felt like were really excelling.
And my studio owner and I agreed that it was worth taking their pieces to the competition. But it's not my area of expertise. It's fairly new to me, I have not been to a lot of competitions.
And I think from like the casual dance teachers perspective, first taking a piece to competition can be super intimidating. And you're like, thinking you're going to be up against people that this is like, their life and they live and breathe dance competitions. And you're like, is it really worth it? But for me and my students, I feel like it was so worth it to get that experience.
There's so much you can get out of it, you get feedback from people like you. And that's something that I really want to encourage, actually. So I've gone from being a little bit of like a competition hater and like, I've never been to a competition.
So you know, a lot of that.
Olivia
Oh, I grew up that way. Comp was like my career, not growing up.
So I feel you.
Maia
Okay, perfect. So I've come around to it.
And now I'm trying to like, tell other people like, it's okay, it's totally worth it. You should give it a try. So the first question that I want to ask you before we even get into like, what actually happens at a competition is when you're teaching students, and let's say you don't have a competition team set up, but maybe you're trying to gauge if it's worth it.
What should you look for in the students that would tell you that they might be ready for that step?
Olivia
Yeah, so there's a couple things that I particularly look for in students, especially even ones who might be coming out of a recreational background, and they want to become more serious within any studio. The biggest thing is commitment, I would say, because a lot of times, you know, whether you have a long time to prepare for a comp, or a short amount of time, the commitment is so important. If one person misses a group dance, they miss that day of cleaning.
And it's not always I hate to use the word important as it would be for like a recital dance, but you know, the stakes are a little higher. So commitment's a huge thing, making sure that you can commit the time to not only attending, but putting the work in outside of class. I think there's work outside of the studio that has to be done to prepare for a competition.
The other thing, and this is a me thing, is the foundation of technique. I'm a huge technique person. That's actually my, yeah, my passion is actually bridging the gap right now between technique and comp.
Like this is where I'm living. So I'm like, that is a huge, huge passion of mine, which we can get into later. But so that too, because I feel like the nice thing is that that gap is getting bridged a little closer these days.
So making sure that that foundation of technique is there. And then also two big things, attention to detail, and receptive to corrections. That's going to be huge, whether you attend competitions or conventions as well.
The attention to detail is obviously being able to pick up choreography quickly, being able to, when you're cleaning, fix that correction the first time, or as quick as possible. You know, we're all human. And then just being receptive to corrections, making sure that we're not taking it personally, making sure that, you know, it's for the benefit of the dancer and the team too.
Like your correction in the group dance, you know, it's for the group, not just for yourself. And then as you know, when you go to comps, you get those corrections back verbally from judges. So being able to hear it and take it constructively and be like, okay, the corrections are to help me improve and do better at the next competition rather than, oh, I did a horrible job.
So those are kind of my like foundations I like to look for.
Maia
Yeah. Amazing.
I'm really excited to delve into the technique. But first, let's talk mindset real quick, because with that being open to corrections, how do you mentally prepare a first time student of like, what is going to happen to step on stage and also to take that feedback and to be a good sport with award ceremonies and all of that? Like, can you give us some some mental tips and maybe some verbal cues to give students before they go?
Olivia
Definitely. I'm also like a huge note person. I've got like notes. Because I knew I'd forget. So if I look down or anything, I'm just looking at notes.
Maia
Yeah. Same here. So I'm doing the glance to the side, like make sure I don't forget anything.
Olivia
Perfect. Yeah. So I really, I mean, I kind of prepare a student who's never been into comp the same way I do someone who's going weekly because or, you know, monthly, whatever, because it really they're all kids, they're all children, even 17, 18 year olds, you know, the way that they think they don't see the big picture all the time.
So my biggest thing is knowing don't go for scores. That's like my huge thing. We're not going for numbers, mainly because your number score could be different at one comp compared to another.
Also keeping in mind, judging is subjective. I mean, everything in dance a little bit is subjective. So like you could have three judges in front of you on one weekend and then have three different judges and it could be different just because there's different people sitting in front of you.
So to keep in mind that you're going there as a learning experience, a growing experience rather than as an award, I'm huge on, you know, if you get first overall, you know, that's wonderful. Yes. Have a goal.
Go for the goal. But be mindful that you're also going for growth rather than an award because, you know, to be completely frank, when it comes down to having, if you want to be a professional dancer, no one's going to care how many awards you got at a competition. No one's going to count them.
No one's going to ask you, have you achieved a, you know, platinum? Have you achieved gold? Anything like that. It's not going to amount to that in the long run. So I really like all my students to go for, I think they should have that goal in mind of like, you know, trying to get in the top 10.
I think that's a wonderful goal. But to be mindful that it's about growth. I also encourage that, especially first time goers, sit in the audience and watch.
Don't stay backstage. Watch the other dancers. Get inspired.
Don't look at them as, oh, they're better than me. I'm a terrible dancer. Watch them as, whoa, okay, I saw her achieve this step or, you know, this person inspired me just by their performance quality.
And so to go through an inspirational side of it rather than just black and white of getting an award or not getting an award. And I think that's so important going in as a first timer. Know that it's subjective.
The judging is subjective and that you're going for personal growth. Meet people. Talk to other dancers from other studios.
I mean, I know, I'm sure you know this, you never know who you're going to work with one day. Yeah. The dance world is the tiniest world.
So, you know, meet people. There's people who you could meet at 14 and then work with them in your 30s in dance and out of dance. You just never know.
So yeah, that's kind of where I kind of want them to go for growth rather than an award.
Maia
I think that's one of the big things that helped me to come around to competitions and not see it as something that was like too commercial or like diminished the artistry because the studio that I teach at actually does have a small competition team. I just haven't been involved with it aside from a few instances here and there.
And the studio owner who runs the competition team explained to me at one point when I sent my first piece, like the goal is for the students not to place the highest because that would be ridiculous. Like, what are we doing for them? But for them to be exposed to all the other students and see what other people are learning and what they're doing and to have that inspiration. So I love you saying that, too, because like I said, that's kind of what made me be like, oh, you know what? Like, this is such a great thing for our kids.
Olivia
Yes. And I can say I've worked, to be completely honest, I've worked for different studios where, you know, some studios that is their goal is the awards and others are not. And I can tell you, I didn't last at the ones that oriented to that because I think there's more to take out of it.
I think as dancers, I mean, I even tell my students, I don't care if you want to be a professional dancer, like you don't have to have the same end goal I had. But to be able to grow as a human is what you're in this studio for. So, you know, take the learning commitment, responsibility, being in touch with yourself mentally and physically to take into whatever you choose to do in your life.
And I think they should. I think those competitions, you know, show such a commitment. I think it's a huge commitment to do.
And I think it's valuable in that kind of self-responsibility that they'll take into whatever career they choose.
Maia
Now, obviously, we do so want to do well. We do so want to win, so let's get into that.
Olivia
Have a goal. Like, you still need goals, you know, you got to try your best. We're still shooting for those.
Maia
Yeah, for sure. I'm going to ask you about my hot take here. Would you say from a choreography standpoint that you would consider there to be a difference between competition dances and recital dances? Because I'm always like, oh, that's icky to me.
Olivia
OK, so I I'm human. Take what I say with a grain of salt. It's opinion.
Maia
Oh, we're going to fight. We're going to fight.
Olivia
This is a hard one.
OK, so I I will say we had kind of touched on this a little before. I don't think there should be. I will say that there should not be a difference.
No, the difference. And this is based on pure experience. So I didn't grow up competition dancing.
I actually grew up classically dancing and I was classically trained through conservatories and all of that. And then I started getting into the competition world as a teacher and choreographer when I was in college. So like just working for different studios.
And that was my introduction into it because I grew up very much so like you are classical or comp and you look down on one or the other. I grew up that way. And, you know, I will say what I've seen in my teaching career, it's not necessarily that there should be a difference, but I think people are hired differently for different places.
So when I've interviewed, let's say, for studios that are not comp based, I've never been asked anything about my choreography. No one's ever asked for choreography real. No one's wanted to see it.
It's based solely on how am I as a teacher? How am I as technique? How am I, you know, that kind of realm where when I've gone for interviews for comp studios, they want to see my choreography. They want to know your choreographic experience. So I think that the reason that stigma happens is because they're just so happens to sometimes, not all the time, be more experienced choreographers in the comp world because it's so heavily there.
But then you also have amazing choreographers in the comp world who are not great teachers. So I think sometimes you can do both. Sometimes you're a really good teacher and really good choreographer.
And that's, you know, that amazing goal. But you don't always have that. It's the same thing as you could have a dancer who's an amazing performer, had an incredibly successful career as a performer, but then they're not that great in the classroom teaching, knowing how to break a step down for a student from the beginning to the end.
So I feel like that's more what I've seen in the difference. I think recital choreography tends to be more simplistic. And that could be a time thing to like comp dances.
We're starting in August, September and working throughout the year. Recital starts in like what, February-ish for dances. So it's a time crunch thing sometimes.
That's kind of what I've seen. So I don't think there should be, but I have seen, I do see a difference. And I think some of it is just whether you have more experience as a teacher compared to a choreographer.
I will say my personal experience since working with Competition Studios, I've actually become a better choreographer because of that. I've developed more skills, but I've had to do the work, put the research in, see what's out there, how the dance world's changing choreographically. I think it pushes your choreographic realm being in the comp world because you are forced to think outside of your box.
Because for recital, let's say I have five dances, I've had years where I've had 13 contemporary solos. And I'm like, how do I make 13 different dances? Not look the same, not sound the same, not like spatially be the same on stage. So I feel like that's more where I see a difference.
Maia
I think that's totally valid. I appreciate that answer. Yeah, and I think I can definitely tell in the competitions that I've been to when you're watching, you can see when the choreographer understands composition and when it's more derivative of like, this is what we do at competitions, you know what I mean? And thankfully, what I've typically seen is that the well-composed dances tend to score well.
So that's good. I love that. So from behind the table, can you give us some insight? You can break this down however you want because I know this is a big question, but like the ics, the things that turn you off, you're like, oh gosh, no.
And then the things that you notice from a composition or a choreography standpoint that stand out and elevate dances.
Olivia
Ooh, that's a good question.
Maia
I was thinking as I asked that, I was like, wow, this is a really mean question. It's like so big.
Olivia
No, no, no, no, no. You're good.
So from a choreographer standpoint, as far as, okay. I mean, I don't know, as far as icks go, I feel like I have more ics as a judge than a choreographer, but I feel like, and I don't know if this is really an icc or something that's from watching dances, just more so is more attractive to me to watch on stage. I'm a huge, like, I want transitions to be smooth.
Like I don't want it to be like shape, shape, shape, shape, shape, if that makes sense. I want to be able to watch it and feel almost like you're at, you know, a night at the ballet or a night at, you know, a professional, as far as the composition goes. I mean, I'll be really frank.
I am definitely more of a technician than a choreographer. And I can admit that I am way better at teaching technique than choreography. But like I said, it's definitely, I mean, it has changed drastically for me having to push those limits in myself.
And I really relied on kind of my BFA background of those composition classes and working definitely with like formations, but how to, how do we smooth getting into those formations and not just making them abrupt walking to them or running to them or whatever. How can you change what's happening on stage smoothly to where the audience doesn't even realize it's changed.
Maia
Are there other things as a judge that really stand out to you? I don't even know, this is so bad...
I don't even know how competition scoring really works. Can we like start at like the competitions for dummies level and explain that real quick?
Olivia
So different comps are different, but you're going to have basically, like you get a score for choreography technique and then the overall presentation, let's say like those are your big three ones. And then that score adds up to your main one.
And then it breaks down. Now I will say it can get, like I said, it's subjective. Cause like when you're looking at choreography, you know, that's almost more for the choreographer rather than the student.
And as far as presentation goes, it's not always fair to the student. It can get really muddy sometimes when you're looking at that, you got to make sure it's still geared towards what are the kids putting out rather than, you know, like the score is a little bit towards your choreographer cause they put the choreography on you. They picked out the costume.
They saw if it fit before they put you on stage. But I will say, as far as that kind of stuff goes, I try to really set the dance aside from that when I'm judging. And then at the end, if there is an issue with something like that, I will say like, okay, that's my critiques for the dancers.
If you'd like to stop the video now for your dancers, this last part's just for your choreographer. I've tried to be very mindful of that because I've heard critiques where judges have said something about the choreography or about the costumes or things like that. And two things has happened.
When you talk about the choreography in front of the students, the students now have lost trust in their choreographer, which is a huge no-no. Like what you're given, you love it. You do it whether you love it or not, you know, as a dancer.
You put a smile on and you do it and then you don't want to embarrass anyone. So I feel like that, you know, it's a little harder on the judging side. But overall, I mean, other competitions will have smaller breakdowns, but essentially it's choreography, technique and execution of it.
And then your presentation, overall presentation. Okay. So what are the things that you see as a judge that are your icks or also that help to elevate scores? Yeah.
So two of my huge icks, one is one shoe. The one shoe thing absolutely kills me to my soul. Why are we even talking about that? It tells me two things as a judge.
First of all, I'm already out of your dance because I'm already thinking about it. I can't even focus. But it tells me two things.
One, it tells me that you're going to turn. It's not a surprise element anymore. Now I know you're going to turn.
There's no surprise element to your performance. It also tells me one that you're not proficient in turning and jumping as their own entities. So I'll have young dancers be like, can I put my shoes on for the turning section of class? Can I take my shoes off for the jumping section? And I'm like, no, what you do in your dances is what you do in turns and leaps, essentially.
When I'm teaching like turns and leaps classes, I'm like, if all your dances are in jazz shoes, then you are turning and jumping in jazz shoes because it's harder to jump in slippery shoes. So you need to learn how to control your body. If your dances are barefoot, you need to learn to turn barefoot.
You're not going to be able to be proficient on stage if you don't work how you do on stage in the classroom. So that's one of my huge aches, is the one shoe thing that kills me. And then the other thing, and this is more for the teacher, it's costumes and undergarments.
I can't tell you how many times, I mean, and keeping in mind, these are still children, 18 and under. So I mean, they are kids, no matter how mature they come across, they are children. And I can't tell you how many costumes have ridden up or ridden down in places that they shouldn't.
When you try your costumes on at the studio, make them kick, do a cartwheel, lunge back, do a backbend, whatever, make sure it fits correctly. And if it doesn't, take those measures to make it fit right. If you have a family that doesn't have the access to do that, help them so that their kid doesn't go on stage and have those costume issues.
And then undergarments, that's huge for me. I feel like not everyone's comfortable with that conversation and I wish we could normalize undergarment talk in the classroom. If you need to wear something under, they make that for dances these days.
They didn't always have that when we were kids, proper undergarments, but now they do. So I feel like those are my big things. Talk about the undergarments beforehand.
If it's something where the kids are young and it's uncomfortable, talk to the parents, have a separate meeting or if there's boys in the classroom, take them out of the classroom and talk about that because the more that we as teachers can be comfortable with those conversations, the more our students will be comfortable approaching those situations for the stage. Because it's just distracting and it's really sad because I don't want to be distracted by that. You want to focus on the dancer and they're giving everything they've got.
So of course we put it to the side, but those are the type of things where at the end I would say, this is for the teacher alone and I would address that in that section of the video. That's great, yeah. And what are the good things? What elevates a piece? If you have two very similar pieces.
Yes, two very similar. For me, performance quality. I mean, my goal for dancers when I'm judging is make me put my pin down and stop giving corrections.
I want to be so involved. I want to be feeling like, oh, I forgot I'm supposed to be judging. You know, you're judging 500 dances a day.
I want to forget that I'm doing that and I have had, and I will say I can probably count on maybe two hands, probably no more than that, one to two hands. Where it truly has happened and I'm like, that dancer's going places. At the end, I'm always like, thank you for inviting me to your show.
Like the performance is everything. I want to be so involved. I talk to my dancers a lot about goals as dancers and how our ultimate goal is to be an artist, right? Not just a dancer, not a performer, but what's that third element that you miss? And it's like, you need to be a good technician, a good performer, but you also need to have connection.
You need to connect to someone who knows nothing about dance and they should see themselves within you even though they know nothing about dance in the audience. And that can even be through a fun jazz dance. You know, it doesn't have to be serious or emotional, but to feel something.
And so my big thing, I mean, performance, you can make me forget technique if you're a good performer, truly. If you're having fun on stage, you know, I'm having fun watching. That definitely leads me right into another thing that I wanted to ask you about, kind of rewinding back into the classroom.
If you don't necessarily have a dedicated competition team or class, but you see something in students that you think it'd be worth taking them to competition and you just have limited time to rehearse that maybe compared to other competition-based studios, what would you say you should focus on in that rehearsal time? Can you give us a couple of tips there? Yeah, for sure. So my honestly favorite thing is videos. Video every rehearsal because it does give the dancer a chance to, when you are limited on time or resources or things like that, it gives them a chance at home to watch it.
And when I video rehearsals, I will either hold the phone and I say the corrections as they're going because you don't always have time to clean piece by piece. So I will call out the corrections on the video so they have my voice within real time. Or I have someone video it and I'm walking around the room, putting people where they need to be.
That way there's a visual learning aspect to it for them. And then I would focus on the big things. I would say like, let's say there's, if it's a group dance and there's a section where the majority are turning, work on that because you want those larger pop-out moments to stand out more so than like, let's say you have three dancers on one side and two on the other, they're going to do their thing and it's going to be okay, you know, for the most part.
So I would say those larger group sections where it's either everyone together doing something or a big turn section. And again, the performance quality, like I said, work on making sure that, you know, let's say you only get to run it every other week or whenever, a couple times a month, if you know it is that. Every time they run it, make sure it's full face and video it.
They can see. Because you know, as dancers, seeing and feeling are two different things. So yeah, I do a technique class.
I video technique, they'll be jumping across the board. I'm like, your arm was up and they're like, no, it wasn't. Yeah.
And if they don't have phones, because I know sometimes like some of the younger kids don't have phones. I email it to the parents. I eat because, you know, and they can have it at home.
I tell them, you know, if they do have a phone, they can watch it in slow mo and see where, like take their finger across the line and see where everyone's arm is. I will say it means that the dancers have more accountability. If you're low on time and low on resource, it kind of gives them more responsibility.
But I've really relied on in those situations. And I've seen a lot of dancers. I mean, I've worked with dancers who didn't necessarily have all those resources, but they still wanted to go to comp.
And we only had a few rehearsals and we relied on videos. And I would even have them like, OK, if they have a question, email it. So then I can email through video, things like that.
So kind of using what we have these days with media, that's a huge thing. And then just focus on those big moments, strong beginning, strong end, and any large sections. Because that's really when you're watching a thousand dances a day, it's going to be those moments that stand out the most, I feel like.
Yeah. And with that experience of watching like five thousand plus pieces in the last season or something like that, there's probably a lot of technical things. And I don't want to not touch on the technical side, since that is one of your big areas of expertise.
So can you take me through maybe just a couple areas where you see in general, maybe there's a general lack of technique in X, Y, and Z. What should we be working on in the classroom? What should we be making sure to get better out with our students? Yeah, so honestly, I would say across the board, if we're going with average height of releves, which will go with your turns and your jumps, which is in every dance. So I see a lot. And that's kind of where when I talk about kind of bridging that gap of technique, where I would plainly say, even on the mic, there's a difference in pirouettes and spinning.
And a lot of that starts with your height of your heels. So height of releves, height of passes, that's a huge thing across the board. You might be a really good turner, but we're not in proper alignment.
And arms, know what your arms are doing. Like, yes, they're decorative in a way, but the strength from those arms are what make turns and leaps, are what make, you know, even if you have tricks in your dances, I mean, you need the upper body strength. I'm huge on dance conditioning combined with actual technique.
I think a lot of times with young dancers, what they don't realize is they don't understand like, okay, my teacher pointed to me what a hamstring is, but I don't know what that feels like in a pirouette. So then finding exercises of, oh, that's what a hamstring feels like. I would have to say most of my remarks when I have judged, the majority things are height of releve and arms are the biggest things I see.
And transitions. Transitions are huge. And I think that's another thing that comes with the dancer and the choreographer.
And just transitions within steps even. I'm not even talking like the concept of the choreography, just within steps. So like in class, we will drill, you know, you drill a pirouette or you drill a jump, but then how are you going to bridge the gap? Because you're not always going to get chasse, chasse, run, run, leap.
You know, you're not always going to get tendu, prep, pirouette. So how do you connect those smoothly to where there needs to be a transition and I see it, but I don't want to see you live in it. I see a lot of like, okay, we're holding and I'm like, oh, they're going to turn.
I want to be surprised, you know, I want to have that element of, oh, she just did a leap across the stage. I had no idea it was coming. So I'd say those releves, arms and transitions are my three that I feel like I have to comment on the most.
Okay. Yeah, awesome. This has been so fun.
And I just realized, I got so excited to talk to you about competition stuff. I didn't even really ask you too much about yourself. I mean, I gave you a quick intro at the beginning, but before we wrap up, can you tell me just a little bit more about what you're up to now and how people can connect with you and find you and follow you? Yeah, for sure.
So I'm based in Virginia. I'm in Northern Virginia. I teach with a studio out here a couple times a week, but then I also do travel around.
I do masterclasses, guest choreography, a bunch of places in the US. And then I also do private lessons virtually and in person. And you can find me, my Instagram is Olivia Lou Dance.
I tend to post a lot of technique stuff, a lot of stuff like that to help dancers so we can just have the best dancers in our community. I love it. I just want to be able to, you know, reach as many as possible.
That's kind of what I'm up to. Perfect. Thank you so much.
And do you have a favorite quote relating to dance that you could share with us? My favorite quote, I would say, it's not necessarily dance, but it is. That's fine. It's our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.
To me.
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