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Tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode of Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast. Join Francine L. Shaw, the savvy CEO of Savvy Food Safety, and Matthew Regusci, compliance connoisseur and founder of Fostering Compliance, as they serve up the latest in food safety with a side of laughter.
Explore the ins and outs of food systems, responsible food practices, and food safety regulations. Stay informed about food safety awareness and the not-so-occasional food recall. Delve deep into the complexities of the food supply chain with our dynamic duo, who blend expert insights with a pinch of food safety humor. Whether you're knee-deep in the food safety industry or just passionate about what's on your plate, this podcast promises a fresh take on staying safe while eating well.
Expect candid conversations, personal anecdotes, and occasional guest appearances that spice up the discussion. Shaw and Regusci bring their combined decades of experience to the table, making each episode as informative as it is entertaining. From industry trends to must-know food safety news and regulations, they've got your back (and your lunch).
In essence, Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast is not just about imparting information; it's about fostering a culture of food safety. By shedding light on the intricacies of the food supply chain and the latest food safety news, it aims to promote awareness and encourage responsible food practices among consumers and industry professionals alike.
When it comes to food safety, knowledge is power, and a good laugh is the best seasoning. At the heart of every episode is one golden rule: Don't Eat Poop!
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Francine L Shaw: [00:00:00] Those are the things that people don't think about. They see these numbers. These are numbers on a piece of, on our screens at this point. People see numbers and they hear statistics. These are human lives.
Matt Regusci: Yeah, so around 1600 cases, around $2.5 million per case. That is almost $4 billion. 1600 people. $4 billion, which is fascinating, but in perspective, Norovirus about 5.5 million was $3 billion.
What a huge discrepancy statistically between getting Norovirus and getting Listeriosis. The cost is. Extraordinarily higher.
Francine L Shaw: Right. And not to diminish she [00:01:00] norovirus either because norovirus can also become very serious. Yes. Just not typically.
Matt Regusci: No.
Francine L Shaw: You typically don't die from norovirus. Not that you can't, but you typically don't.
intro: Everybody's gotta eat. And nobody likes getting sick. That's why heroes, toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points from the supply chain to the point of sale. Join industry veterans, Francine l Shaw and Matt Reci for a deep dive into food safety and all wars. Down to one golden rule. Don't eat poop.
Don't eat poop.
Matt Regusci: Hello? Hello, Francine. It's snowing today.
Francine L Shaw: That's come in this direction.
Matt Regusci: Yeah, I hear you guys are gonna get a
intro: ton.
Francine L Shaw: I think. Yeah, I think we're supposed to get somewhere [00:02:00] between zero and a hundred inches. I don't know.
Matt Regusci: Definitely Colorado, the, like it nowhere in the forecast, was it snowing today and now it just, they just throw it in there.
Ah, it's snowing. You are like, well, that would've been nice to know last night when I was looking up what the forecast was, but,
Francine L Shaw: uh, you really, yeah. Wasn't in the forecast.
Matt Regusci: No. I joke that. There are like four different weather places that we look at and all of them will be different. And the conspiracy is within our household is that the weather stations for Colorado, just pick and choose what the weather may be.
Thinking that one out of four might get it right. 'cause you never knowing in the front range of Colorado, like the weather will change. The joke here is that coloradoans like four seasons and it's nice 'cause you can have all four of 'em in one day.
Francine L Shaw: Our weeks are like that. Like the other day it was zero degrees and then it was 40 some degrees the next day, and then, you know there's gonna be two feet of snow [00:03:00] tomorrow.
So I was joking with, and you just, you never know, but I think we're supposed to get two feet of snow. And for perspective, we're recording this on the 23rd of January, so it could be summer. By the time this airs, we're supposed to get literally somewhere between, I think eight inches. A couple feet of snow.
Who knows? I don't know. I don't think Al Roker even knows.
Matt Regusci: A week ago, nothing in the forecast for snow. Then we got like a foot and nothing was forecasted, so I don't know. It's snowing now. It's like a light dusting now. I see in the forecast that tomorrow it's supposed to snow all day, so, oh, who knows? Whatever. I like it.
Well, today we get to talk about money and not yours and my money, but the taxpayer's money. And I guess we could say it's the taxpayer's money, but it's also individual's money. It's.
Francine L Shaw: It affects us all.
Matt Regusci: It affects us all. There was a report done by the USDA just recently that estimated that food [00:04:00] poisoning costs, foodborne illness costs in the United States in 2023, costed an estimate of $74 billion in that one year.
Francine L Shaw: So I found this really interesting because I wrote an article for QSR Magazine, not that it doesn't feel like it was that long ago, and at that point in time it was 55.5 billion. This says June, 2018.
Matt Regusci: Yeah. It's funny how the older you get the more you're like it was, it didn't seem like it was that long ago. 2018 pre COVID. All my teenagers, they're like, oh.
Francine L Shaw: From 55.5 billion to 74 billion in how many years? Six.
Matt Regusci: Yeah, six. In this study, which we'll have linked is very interesting, and then.
Francine L Shaw: Seven years.
Matt Regusci: [00:05:00] They break it down by number of cases and by illnesses, and I found that fascinating. Because, okay, so let's break each one of these down.
Okay. We'll start with the highest number, which is Norovirus. Okay? Norovirus in 2023 at 5,461,731 cases. They're very specific, which is funny. These, by the way, these are the cases they know of. Okay? So this does not include productivity lost because someone got Norovirus, quote unquote. The 24 hour flu where it's a terrible 24 hours of liquids coming out both ends simultaneously. Not a lot of fun.
Francine L Shaw: Projectile vomiting, and explosive diarrhea.
Matt Regusci: Thank you. Describing the symptoms so succinctly, ran. It's almost like you talk.
Francine L Shaw: Used to do it [00:06:00] every day. Every day. For years, that was my life. Projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea. If you need a visual, that's what it is.
Matt Regusci: So this is 5,461,731 cases that were reported, mind you, in 2023.
So if you like me when that happens, which it happens, I don't know. Every few years or something like that. And the interesting thing about Norovirus, right, it couldn't have, it might not have been something I ate, but it could have been something one of my kids ate. And then it goes through the house because I have 14 people in my house, the number always changes.
I don't know, 15 people now, it will go through my house, because if you don't sanitize everything perfectly, you're gonna get Norovirus. So it's like a ticking time bomb. And then you lose productivity. So this doesn't include. Productivity. This is just the health cases and stuff [00:07:00] like that. So of that, on average, each case of Norovirus is $543 is what they put this down to.
So overall, for the economy, it's almost 3 billion. We'll just, we'll round it up.
Francine L Shaw: $2,968,300,000.
Matt Regusci: Thank you, Prezi. Well, okay. I can see where the roles are going to be today. You are going to be very specific.
Francine L Shaw: You've missed me, haven't you? It's been a couple weeks.
Matt Regusci: I have. I really have missed you. I really have missed you.
Francine L Shaw: These are only the people that went to the doctor. For those that aren't understanding fully what you're saying here, these are only people who went to the doctor that we're tracking.
Matt Regusci: Yes.
Francine L Shaw: Go to the doctor.
Matt Regusci: So, okay, so the estimates draw on, we'll go back to the article here. The estimates draw on medical treatment cost data, public data on employment and wages. Oh. So it is calculating that. CDC estimates of [00:08:00] incidences of foodborne illness and associated hospitalizations and death and peer reviewed scientific research.
So the economic research service estimates model illness outcomes from short-term illness, doctor visits. Hospital visits as well as long-term health outcomes like kidney failure from e coli O157:H7. The long-term health outcomes can themselves cause additional deaths, and these deaths are included in the ERS estimates. It does count on the cases that have like doctors and then they've also projected this out into people who may not have gone to the doctor or whatever. So I, it probably is a pretty close estimate then.
Alright, so Norovirus, by far the most with five, almost 5.5 million cases.
The next one up is salmonella, which makes sense if you want to understand where [00:09:00] most likely you got salmonella from look at our podcast where we did on chicken where over 20, like 25% of chicken has like salmonella in it. And then when we looked at the numbers for 2024, I believe it was where chicken and salmonella make up the majority of salmonella. So don't wash your chicken guys and gals, please just cook it to the right temperature.
So salmonella has a million cases, a little bit more than a million cases. Francine would want me to say 1,027,561 cases. The cost per case is 16,668 or overall approximately 17 billion. A little bit more, but 17 billion.
Crazy, crazy.
Francine L Shaw: It really is. [00:10:00] These are preventable.
Matt Regusci: These are preventable.
Francine L Shaw: These are illnesses are all preventable.
Matt Regusci: Norovirus and salmonella in particular should be very pre preventable.
Francine L Shaw: They all are preventable.
Matt Regusci: They all are preventable. Some of are harder to prevent, but yes. I would say norovirus is the hardest to prevent.
What I mean by Norovirus is the hardest to prevent, not because you could have all the SOPs in the world. You could have all the right practices in the world. One person shows up to work sick because they just feel like they need to show up to work. And you can get people sick.
Francine L Shaw: Called in because somebody's like, can't you just come in for a few hours?
Right. Wash their hands, they touch the doorknobs, they touch the, you know.
Matt Regusci: Norovirus is most likely people getting other people sick.
Francine L Shaw: They, you have customers that come in, are in are ill or whatever.
Matt Regusci: Yes. It's the hardest one because it's almost entirely people based and people are the most complex of everything.
Salmonella. A lot of [00:11:00] these numbers could be decreased significantly. If salmonella was considered an adulterant in the United States like that could be prevented. Complicated. Yes. Expensive. Yes. Easier to do than getting rid of the majority of Norovirus. Yes. It would be easier to do.
They have everything here. E coli. I found interesting. 175,905 people. The cost is around $3,000 per case. Per person, and overall 500 million. Okay. It's funny when we're talking about these numbers and it's only 500 million, right? That actually I thought was interesting.
Francine L Shaw: Yes, it is. Because knowing what we know about that illness.
Yeah, I'm surprised. I'm surprised.
Matt Regusci: And that is most likely coming from fresh fruit and vegetables and [00:12:00] from animals, stuff like that. Right. That's where the majority of e coli cases are coming from.
What I found the most interesting, 'cause they have botulism on here, which is huge. If you get botulism, there's only 55 cases, but each case is 2.1 million.
So overall $116 million. The botulism sucks. Like.
Francine L Shaw: Look at Vibrio.
Matt Regusci: Yes. The 96.
Francine L Shaw: 96 cases.
Matt Regusci: Yeah.
Francine L Shaw: 4.5. $4.5 million.
Matt Regusci: Yeah. That's the highest one per case.
Francine L Shaw: Per case.
Matt Regusci: Is Vibrio. Yeah. I don't know much about that one.
Francine L Shaw: That's staggering.
Matt Regusci: Yeah, when I saw that I was like, what the heck? Like it doesn't pop up in a lot of root cause analysis [00:13:00] Vibrio, but man, if you get that, that's not good. It costs a lot.
Okay. What I really thought was fascinating, and this is this number is gonna keep going up in my view, is Listeria. As Listeria has basically 1600 cases, 1,583 cases. Each one of those cases is 2.5, over $2.5 million. As once you get Listeriosis, it is a hell of a ride or. Another way of saying that, just rearranging the words in that sentence.
Is this a ride through hell. Listeriosis is so bad.
Francine L Shaw: So these are 2023 numbers, right?
Matt Regusci: 2023 numbers, right?
Francine L Shaw: So I [00:14:00] feel like in 2025, 4 and 5 listeria became.
Matt Regusci: It's gonna jump.
Francine L Shaw: Been more prevalent than it was in 2023. Correct. Imagine what that number's gonna look like for 24 and 25.
Matt Regusci: But the other thing to think of is every single time there is a listeria outbreak that leads to a lot of Listeriosis so that hits the news because it's really bad, right?
So that's when people are very sick and die. Or you have the, you have a lot of deaths. It could be a small outbreak in terms of the number of victims, but large percentage of deaths because it's, you have an easier chance of getting a one on a roll of a dice, than surviving Listeriosis. It is like one in three, one in four, depending upon the outbreak. So you have a 25% to [00:15:00] 33% chance of death when you get Listeriosis. Not good.
Francine L Shaw: And of the people that do survive, many of them, this is gonna sound very callous. Many of them would've better been better off to not have survived.
The gentleman that you know, his poor wife wrote that letter to Bill was like as hard as it was for her, I'm sure to say it, his quality of life and the way he was living, he has since passed away. He would have been better off to have not survived that additional year or two. Yeah, she said that pretty much in that letter that she wrote, which is very sad thing for his family, his friends, the people who worked for him. And those are the things that people don't think about. They see these numbers. These are numbers on a piece of piece on our screens at this point. People see numbers and they hear statistics. These are human lives.
Matt Regusci: Yeah. So around [00:16:00] 1600 cases, around $2.5 million per case, that is almost $4 billion. 1600 people equaled $4 billion, which is fascinating. Put in perspective, norovirus, about 5.5 million was $3 billion.
What a huge discrepancy statistically between getting Norovirus and getting Listeriosis. The cost is extraordinarily higher.
Francine L Shaw: Right. And not to diminish Norovirus either, because Norovirus can also become very serious, just not typically.
Matt Regusci: No.
Francine L Shaw: You typically don't die from Norovirus. Not that you can't, but you typically.
Matt Regusci: [00:17:00] Right.
Francine L Shaw: Don't.
Matt Regusci: No, but you dive like dehydration or complications. You were already really sick and then you get Norovirus and complications from that. But Listeriosis, you could be perfectly healthy, had immunocompromised in some way, shape or form, get Listeriosis, and then you either die or wish you had. It's crazy.
Well, this is. It is fascinating to get, get these numbers and in the breakdown because this is very helpful I think for our listeners. When you're in a restaurant and you're teaching food safety and how to prevent Norovirus, this statistic of 5.5 million cases in one year will be very helpful. I probably would leave the dollar amount out, but that is staggering and that is preventable if people are doing what they're supposed to do doing and not coming into work sick.
The Listeria one is interesting for suppliers [00:18:00] because this could be fixed. You had a good environmental program. I mean, we're talking about what the easiest thing is. The easiest thing really is, it's hard because once listeria is in your facility is a constant battle and it probably is in your facility.
But like a good environmental program, good environmental testing program, you should be able to figure out where it is and keep killing this thing and keep that battle going and making sure it doesn't end up in some massive outbreak that kills a bunch of people. But this number is gonna continue to grow.
But, okay, so in 2024, it'll be interesting to see later on when we get the data for 2024, or if we ever do, 'cause who knows, maybe they'll stop collecting this data. I mean, it's 2026 and we're getting 2023 info, so I don't know.
Francine L Shaw: I don't know. Is salmonella something we're still tracking or has it been taken off the list?
Matt Regusci: I don't know. [00:19:00] That's a fantastic question.
Francine L Shaw: You started that conversation.
Matt Regusci: The 2024 data dropped by by
Francine L Shaw: 50%.
Matt Regusci: $30 billion.
Francine L Shaw: We don't near as many outbreaks, not near as many people are numbers. Oh, whoops. We're only counting three of them now.
Matt Regusci: Yeah, we'd see the pathogen listed as three pathogens.
Francine L Shaw: We used to count 20.
Matt Regusci: Yeah. So it'll be interesting 'cause in 2024 we had those big outbreaks. Right. We had the Boar's Head outbreak. The, what was another one? When was Blue Bell's Listeria outbreak.
Francine L Shaw: Oh my. That's been.
Matt Regusci: That was a long time ago.
Francine L Shaw: Way longer ago than we think it was. I'm gonna tell you that.
Matt Regusci: Yeah. 20, 2015. That's not in here at all.
I wish I knew where the, where the outbreaks were other than just the data. It was 2015.
Francine L Shaw: Wow. That's when Chipotle was as well.
Matt Regusci: Yeah. Yeah. That was a big, that was a big year. Not a good consumer year, but [00:20:00] 2024 was too. There were so many outbreaks in 2024, like big, crazy outbreaks.
Yeah. So on Marler's blog, of course, he's got an opinion, has
Francine L Shaw: Bill, has an opinion? Is that what you're saying?
Matt Regusci: Yeah. Yeah. That happens occasionally. He says The cost of illness estimates are often used to approximate the public's willingness to pay to prevent foodborne illness. These cost estimates provide a conservative approximation because they do not include the willingness to pay to prevent non-financial impacts of illness, including pain and suffering.
So that's where we were talking about what isn't in here is the wife of the husband who now has to handle everything. The husband of the wife that has the kids, and now has to manage everything with, manage all the kids by themselves, both sides, husband and wife, managing the children by themselves, the long-term cost of [00:21:00] losing a child.
All of those things are not listed in here. That is absolutely correct.
Francine L Shaw: So let's go back to 2015 for just a second. The CDC reported 902 Foodborne Disease Outbreaks causing 15,202 illnesses, 950 hospitalizations and 15 deaths.
intro: Yeah. 2015 was not a good year for food.
Francine L Shaw: I remember that. I wrote so many articles that year on outbreaks.
It was unbelievable.
Matt Regusci: I remember you. I remember having a conversation with you 2015 about this. And you were like, I don't even know how to rephrase the articles that I'm writing because they want me to write about the same things over and over again. How do I write about the same thing over and over again without plagiarizing myself?
Francine L Shaw: I had to start saying no to about Chipotle because I felt like I was constantly, its attacking Chipotle and I wasn't. It was informational, but people kept calling and saying, can you write an article about Chipotle and what's happening at Chipotle? And finally I had to start. They [00:22:00] had five outbreaks that year and one right after another. And it was.
Matt Regusci: Yeah.
Francine L Shaw: I had to start saying no because I felt like I was just badgering them and it wasn't. It was legitimate. They had a bad year.
Matt Regusci: They had a bad year. Yes. The news cycle, like they did not catch a break. It was like e coli, which is supply chain issue, and then it was Norovirus.
Francine L Shaw: Salmonella.
Matt Regusci: And then they had some, was it salmonella?
Was e coli? Was it e coli or Salmonella? Salmonella.
Francine L Shaw: Salmonella in Minnesota with tomatoes, salmonella in Minnesota with tomatoes in August. Yeah, they had e coli.
Matt Regusci: Yeah, sorry. Two supplier issues. And then Norovirus, which is an internal operations business, uh, issue.
Francine L Shaw: Actually, I remember going out and meeting with them at one point with who did I go out there with? It was something that year.
Matt Regusci: Chipotle was probably like, how do we shut this chick up and get her to stop writing articles about us.
Francine L Shaw: Putting my [00:23:00] picture in their offices?
Matt Regusci: Invite her to the corporate office so we can have a conversation.
Francine L Shaw: Make her stop writing.
Matt Regusci: Oh, lordy. Yeah, it was bad.
But, okay, so having a number on these Listeriosis ones, having the number on all of these cases is really interesting, but the listeria cases at $2.5 million.
That. That is a fantastic statistic to use when you're justifying the cost of your environmental monitoring program. And the CFO says to you, why are we spending so much money on environmental testing for listeria this? And you say to them, well, because every single listeria case, if we get someone sick, is going to be $2.5 million.
So that is significantly higher than any environmental monitoring program for listeria.
Francine L Shaw: So for us to invest a couple hundred thousand or whatever it might cost is worth the 2.5 million we might spend on one case. And probably it wouldn't be [00:24:00] just one case.
Matt Regusci: Oh no.
Francine L Shaw: They make just one person sick. If you do, it's by the grace of God and you got lucky.
Matt Regusci: Well, for epidemiology purposes, you could get one person sick, but you, they probably wouldn't know. You would have to get a few people really sick. And at least a few people before they find out it comes from you. It's just so complicated to figure out where a Listeria outbreak came from.
Francine L Shaw: Care, you're gonna get more than one person sick.
Matt Regusci: Yes. If you end up on this list, it is 2.5 million times, probably 10 or 12 to 30 or 50 like it's gonna be somewhere between there. So. We're looking at 25 million plus is what the cost is going to be. Uh, yeah. And hopefully you have enough insurance to cover it or else it's gonna come directly from your pocket.
Francine L Shaw: Well, you, yeah, you're probably gonna cease to exist unless you're a large conglomerate. A lot of [00:25:00] insurance and a lot of capital.
Matt Regusci: Yeah. For Boar's Head man, they keep being in the news for the same thing. Cheese just recently for Listeria. It's like, come on. Okay, so it wasn't your facility this time. It was one of your partners, but you put your brand name on another listeria outbreak.
That is not good.
Francine L Shaw: I have zero respect.
Matt Regusci: Here's the numbers, guys and gals. Here's the numbers. I don't see the numbers decreasing. Like you said, 2018 it was like 50 billion. 2023, it's 74 billion. Now mind you, there's been inflation and all that stuff, but.
Francine L Shaw: Seven years.
Matt Regusci: Regardless.
Francine L Shaw: That's a lot of money.
Matt Regusci: Yeah.
Francine L Shaw: Even with inflation, that is a lot. The numbers aren't going down, so apparently we're not running anything.
Matt Regusci: That's a 33% increase over the course of
Francine L Shaw: seven years,
Matt Regusci: seven years.
Francine L Shaw: And you would think we'd be learning and maybe the numbers would be decreasing instead of increasing, but that's not happening.
Matt Regusci: No.
Okay. [00:26:00] So do you feel like the number is going to keep increasing or do you feel like the world is, or
Francine L Shaw: we don't have time for my answer.
Matt Regusci: It's going, you go, shoot, this is really bad. Maybe we should put better practices into place.
Francine L Shaw: With what's happened over the course of the last several months. These numbers aren't gonna go down.
The only way they're gonna go down is because we've stopped tracking some of this information, and therefore the numbers may not be as high.
Matt Regusci: Yeah. You know what's funny is the people listening to our show are like, well, we're definitely doing everything that we need to do to make sure that we're minimizing foodborne illness.
I don't doubt that at all. Anybody who listens to this show and has been a long time listener is probably doing everything that they need to do. The problem is.
Francine L Shaw: We need some other people to listen to the show. Maybe they could share.
Matt Regusci: We have a large listener base, but there are a lot of food manufacturers and a lot of [00:27:00] restaurants across the United States and the world that are not listening to this show.
Francine L Shaw: So we're straight. Forward enough that maybe some of the people that are in the news should be listening.
Matt Regusci: They probably don't. Probably gives 'em PTSD probably have too. They probably have too much PTSD.
Francine L Shaw: Anyway.
Matt Regusci: Yeah. We got the numbers, we got the money. If nothing else, for our listeners, this will be very helpful to justify the cost of their programs.
And on that note, don't eat poop.