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Veterans know how to lead. The lessons we learned in the military form the foundation for bigger successes in business, entrepreneurship and community.
Host John S Berry, CEO of Berry Law, served as an active-duty Infantry Officer in the U.S. Army, finishing his military career with two deployments and retiring as a Battalion Commander in the National Guard. Today, his veteran led team at Berry Law, helps their clients fight some of the most important battles of their lives. Leading successful teams in the courtroom, the boardroom, and beyond, veteran leadership drives the firm’s rapid growth and business excellence.
Whether building teams, synchronizing operations, or refining tactics, we share our experiences, good and bad, to help you survive, thrive and dominate.
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[00:00:03.630] - TJ Baird
The world holds its breath, and so do we. Snow rests untouched, not out of peace, but anticipation. I see the ridge through glass, the edge between what we were and what we might lose. Behind me, they wait. Behind them, memories. Ahead, just one decision. One breath, one shot that could take me further from her.
[00:00:36.240] - John S. Berry
Welcome to Veteran Led. I'm your host, John Berry. Today's guest is retired U.S. Army Command Sergeant Major T.J. Baird. Through his work with Warrior Dad Stories, he shares lessons from combat, fatherhood, and recovery to help others. Welcome to the show, T.J.
[00:00:50.960] - TJ Baird
Thanks, John. Appreciate it. I'm glad to be here.
[00:00:52.550] - John S. Berry
So, 32 years of service, 20 deployments, 9 of them combat.
[00:00:56.440] - TJ Baird
Yes.
[00:00:57.570] - John S. Berry
And you retire. Now what do you do?
[00:00:59.380] - TJ Baird
So, I am an author right now. I'm an award-winning poet and I'm getting ready to publish my first book called Warrior Dad. And the best part is I'm a trophy husband to my wife.
[00:01:10.310] - John S. Berry
Yeah, I've got a friend, Scott Robinson, out of— former Special Forces officer. He has Camp Cowboy. He also has companies, but Camp Cowboy is his nonprofit. This is the way to do it, right? Have a— be successful in business. Then you can fund your own nonprofit. That's what he does. And we support that. And Scott and I both went to New Mexico Military Institute, but he actually has his Trophy Husband's Club. And all it is is a bunch of old fat guys sitting around, you know, and I shouldn't say not all, but, you know, we're all past our prime. And so I got to be a member of that. And it's, you know, we're all in our 50s. And he said, yeah, no, we're the Trophy Husband's Club. And, but Scott does a great, a great human being, but also a great sense of humor about that. So, and it looks like you have a copy of the book here. Go ahead, hold it up.
[00:01:51.930] - TJ Baird
Let's see it in the, So it's the proof. So you see a little line going across, that is the proof. And that is Warrior Dad right there. And then he is also part of one of my odes called the Ode to the Weight He Bears. And on that specific ode, I took the words out of the front cover just to not compete with the Warrior Dad. It says, I will always remember.
[00:02:13.150] - John S. Berry
Outstanding. And yeah, as we discussed earlier, my father is also a poet. My dad wrote a book, Those Gallant Men on Trial in Vietnam. But before that, when he was at Stanford University, he published a book of poems called The Darkness of Snow, and has since written several books about Vietnam and military service. So how did you get into poetry? Most of us don't think of a Command Sergeant Major reading any poetry.
[00:02:34.880] - TJ Baird
Right.
[00:02:35.620] - John S. Berry
Or writing any for that matter.
[00:02:36.740] - TJ Baird
Right. So first of all, I just bought your dad's new book published in 2023. There's new and selected poems. I saw it in there. Yeah. I was like, oh my gosh, there was another warrior poet. So went on Amazon and got it. So shout out to your pops on that one. So I've been writing all my life and I started writing when I was a kid. I was published in my school and I joined the Army right out of high school at 17, went to Airborne School and continued on. And then 32 years later, here I am today. So here's what you don't tell people while you're in the Army, especially as like, you know, quote unquote, a barrel-chest of freedom fighter, you write poetry. Although all through history, we see great poets that are also warriors or warriors that are also great poets. But I just really never told anybody. It was just something for me for just a release and just fun for me to do. And over the last 10 years, I really focused on it, especially on this bear that my daughter got me. And then I collected all the poems.
[00:03:27.750] - TJ Baird
I actually have a children's book that I'm getting ready to publish called The Adventures of Cool Bear. And then for this one specifically, there were a lot of odes and haikus that were not really for kids. So I took those out and built a story about a guy deploying over 9 combat deployments. And sees his daughter off when she's very young and comes home when she's about 20.
[00:03:47.560] - John S. Berry
Wow. Yeah. And those experiences— let me tell you something, I was an English major in college, so I read all the great literary works at William Mary, too, an amazing school with an amazing English department. And, you know, I had no life experience. And so to read those, go back and read some of the great works now, I understand them more. And I think it's the same way with, with poetry and writing, is you have to have the life experience to be able to write. And I'll just tell you, I went to law school here. I had the highest A in advanced legal writing. And you know why? Because I used the Army writing style. I could do BLUF. Everybody else would use all this crappy legalese stuff that the professors couldn't understand. And what I realized after my first semester of tests was professors do not have time to read all your garbage.
[00:04:29.840] - TJ Baird
Nope.
[00:04:30.060] - John S. Berry
Get to the point. Just like your commander, get to the point, make it crystal Clear, just get it out there. And that got me the highest A in Advanced Legal Writing. And I found that great poets, it's the same way. Words matter. You get real, really, you get the crystallization of the concept comes out, the feelings in the words. And there's nothing better than a writer who can take you back to that moment in time where you can see it, taste it, smell it, feel it. And so that's what you do. And so I'm very curious. I was a sergeant major. Obviously you probably wrote a memo or two.
[00:05:01.900] - TJ Baird
I have.
[00:05:03.870] - John S. Berry
And did you continue to develop your skills in service? Did you continue to write as a hobby during service or was this something you picked up afterward?
[00:05:10.260] - TJ Baird
No. So it was—
[00:05:11.540] - John S. Berry
I mean, I know you did it beforehand.
[00:05:12.820] - TJ Baird
Right. Did it beforehand. And then I actually wanted to be an English teacher when I was in school. I just didn't want to continue on my college trajectory. So I, like I said, joined the Army and all throughout I just continued to write and I saw my writing get better and better and better. You write for competitions. I wrote a history papers. I wrote 4 as I was going through my baccalaureate degree. And through the process, I started really understanding how to write more effectively. But it's very different writing for prose and poetry than it is for the Army writing style. But I will say though, coming from here, as I took a story, right, this is all, everything in this book is a story. I lived everything in this book. And so I would write short stories and they're several pages long and then how to condense those all into a one-page poem. And one of them was actually three pages. That was, uh, based on a friend of mine who saved my life. So I'm on 23 Years of Borrowed Time. Uh, that is obviously the longest one in here, but yeah, you're right.
[00:06:13.360] - TJ Baird
Uh, using the concise writing method for poetry and to show the world your experiences, to try to connect others with those experiences. That's what I want to do with this. And that's how I did it. I think I did that very effectively with this book.
[00:06:28.790] - John S. Berry
And it's that narrative transportation. It is taking the reader there in a way that said the words, you know, they can become hypnotic when it went right in a good, good rhyme or meter. And you really just start to, you know, fall into it. And it means so much. I'm going to ask you to do this at some point is to read— is to read some of your own poetry. Because what I found is if I read my own stuff, Right. I read it differently than someone else might.
[00:06:54.880] - TJ Baird
Oh, yeah.
[00:06:55.510] - John S. Berry
And, and just the pauses, right? The rhythm. And even— and once again, it's what's between the words. Sometimes it matters. And if I don't know where that pause is and I'm reading it, I may just blow over the meaning of that poem.
[00:07:11.500] - TJ Baird
No. So I agree. And then on the very front cover, my good friend Dave Gears, who's been with me for years and years, went on a lot of my deployments with me. He helped me through this entire process because when I read him one of my odes, I showed him all of my drafts. I showed him the imagery that I created for it. And I just remember him seeing one of the images like, I remember that mountain. I remember the day we were there. I remember all those things. And so even on the front cover, he talks about that. And I have a lot of other friends, especially Veterans, even non-Veterans, when they read it, they have to only read like one or two at a time. He's like, this is so emotionally powerful because it takes me back. To when I was there. And or when I have folks that are not Veterans and they read it like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize, understand the power of being in a situation where either life and death are on the line or reflecting on your family back home while you're so far away and making these sacrifices for your family to look for a better life.
[00:08:10.620] - TJ Baird
And they just didn't really understand what it was like to be a service member so far from home. Doing what we've been asked to do from our nation and then thinking about their families. So this is what I would again try to capture in this entire book. I think I did a pretty good job based on some of the feedback I've already got.
[00:08:25.690] - John S. Berry
Yeah, I think that was one of the hardest things about the military was that when you're doing hard things, you're focused on the hard things. But the most difficult thing is then you're, you're cleaning weapons or you're turning something into CIF and you know that you've been away from your family and it's like, you know, I need— I owe this time. And you're like, we got to achieve this standard or we have to do this. As I said, CIF, almost a nonsensical thing. It's just like, okay, let's just get home. But it's no, we're going to go to the wash rack, we're going to clean the weapons, we're going to make sure our gear— and it's just one of those things where after the excitement is over and that monotonous time period is something that I always thought you always wanted to capture that and show it to a civilian who thinks that being in the military is all an action war movie and there's these moments of you reflect on your life a lot because there's nothing going on.
[00:09:16.710] - TJ Baird
Oh yeah. You sit on top of a mountain. We got dumped on. We had about 3 feet of snow and we were up about 13, 12, 12, 13,000 feet. The valley floor is around 10,000 feet. And we had 2 comm shots, one in the morning, one at night. So we would go up in the evening. We'd do our, you know, walk across the ridgeline, everything else like that. When it snowed and you get, you got to hunker down because when it comes in as a blizzard and when you're pretty, you're unprotected, right? You're on the top of a mountain range. And that next morning, the sun came up and you just see the beauty of the world around you. And just the four of us are up there and they're just looking out. That's what was again sparked one of these odes. It was pretty cool. It was a quiet moment within an operation that lasted about 6 weeks. And it was a moment of reflection, just a brief few minutes that we had. It was really just thinking about my family, like, hey, you know what? I'm up here. I'm doing all this pretty dangerous work.
[00:10:05.950] - TJ Baird
I'm just hoping my family is okay at home. So yeah, it was, uh, again, I'm trying to capture that moment on, like, for other people to share that experience with them.
[00:10:17.240] - John S. Berry
Well, let's read something.
[00:10:18.200] - TJ Baird
All right, uh, okay, I'm not going to read the one I talked to. I'm going to read one here. It's called, uh, Ode to the Silence Before Fire. The world holds its breath, and so do we. Snow rests untouched not out of peace, but anticipation. I see the ridge through glass, the edge between what we were and what we might lose. Behind me, they wait. Behind them, memories. Ahead, just one decision, one breath, one shot that could take me further from her. So that's just the anticipation and the calm before the operation is getting ready to happen as we get ready to breach and do all these different things. So, this is a quiet moment as I think about my family, especially my daughters. I want to tell her about my life as a military service member because I really didn't do. I was to try to keep that side of my life away from my family just because of the specifically what I did in my long years. And so, I— that is a very powerful one for me is just the remembrance of sitting on those ridgelines or sitting in the valley or getting ready to breach through a door and just, just like that, in a snap, you could be gone.
[00:11:40.900] - TJ Baird
And so, and then what? And then what's going to happen for your family? So that's a powerful moment for me.
[00:11:47.710] - John S. Berry
And I noticed accompanying that was a photo or
[00:11:50.161] - TJ Baird
Oh, yes.
[00:11:50.260] - John S. Berry
an illustration.
[00:11:51.870] - TJ Baird
Yes.
[00:11:52.510] - John S. Berry
And so who did the illustrations?
[00:11:54.610] - TJ Baird
So I did.
[00:11:55.810] - TJ Baird
So I—yeah, so I'm not an artist by any stretch of the imagination. So these are all generated. And interesting about these images that you see on here, you see this one, but what you don't see is 100 to get to this one.
[00:12:08.410] - John S. Berry
Yeah.
[00:12:08.630] - TJ Baird
Right. It's crazy. And so, to write this and to make this image, you still have to write. It's a lot of writing involved. So, it's a page and a half, 2 pages worth of description on what this image is, what I want it to be. And you just got to keep generating it. And once you get the right one you want, or the series of them, you start making the small tweaks. And sometimes even those tweaks get a little dorked up. So, you just got to keep going, keep going, keep going. And there are times when I've said some choice words to my computer. I had to walk away. I was like, I'm done for the night. I'm out. I'm out of here. And just keep back and keep going at it. Kind of hints off to my Second Life principle is be disciplined in thought, word, and deed. And sometimes you got to throw your hands up, walk away, and you just re-cock and Re-think about what you want to do, do whatever you need to do, and then get back into the fight.
[00:12:52.180] - TJ Baird
So for me, this fight was fighting an AI system that's trying to create this image for me. We got there. It was a lot of— I learned a lot how to do things too. So.
[00:13:01.220] - John S. Berry
Right, right. Yeah. And then that's, that's one of the challenges. But let's talk about the Ode to the Silence Before Fire.
[00:13:08.290] - TJ Baird
Yeah.
[00:13:10.060] - John S. Berry
How many times did you have to edit it, rewrite it?
[00:13:12.870] - TJ Baird
A lot. So, a lot of these I had to actually stop. This all started in 2017 on my last deployment. My daughter gave me this little bear and I wrote a lot about him called Cool Bear. And like I said earlier, I took a lot of the more complex and complicated, I would say more deep meaning like the, this one, uh, out of Cool Bear and brought it into Warrior Dad. And to write this, it's, I had to pause a lot because he's just thinking of these moments. And there are a lot of these moments, uh, getting ready to do a very dangerous operation. And then there are times I'm writing, I'm like, what's all this? Is it raining in the side of the house? I realized I'm actually tearing up because I'm writing all these things. Even when I transferred it from a paper and pen to the keyboard, same thing. It's just very powerful for me to read it still. And then, and then to put it pen to paper, you know, type it to the keyboard. It took a long time. In fact, the one I have in here called Ode to the One Who Shook Me Awake, it's about a friend of mine.
[00:14:14.660] - TJ Baird
Again, who saved my life years and years ago, 2003. And I started that in January of 2025 and I finished it in May. I knew the story. I lived it like I could. I could repeat the story over and over. But then when you start to write the story and you really got to hyper fixate on the details and so you could show the reader and have them live that with you, that was— that took a long time to write. It took— it took a lot. And I actually had to call my buddy. I'm like, hey, dude, hey, can you help me with this one, man? I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember XYZ. And, and, uh, and we started talking about it quite a bit. He's like, man, I remember that night. I said, oh yeah. And so, he helped me shape the poem as well. So, I really appreciate everything he did. I mean, realistically, I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for him.
[00:14:58.690] - John S. Berry
Yeah. And I think that, you know, being able to share that, I think, you know, share that experience with someone again and to immortalize it in words is, is so powerful.
[00:15:06.400] - TJ Baird
It's very overwhelming for me right now. It's, um, I'm 45 days out from my book launch and getting everything ramped up for that, getting everything locked in. It's, uh, and just knowing that it's coming and it's going to get released and just, uh, and as I was talking to a couple of my friends, it's, this is my life. And then the world is going to see my life and they're going to read it. And some are going to, I would say the vast majority are probably like, oh my gosh, this is pretty amazing. Something like this jamoke over here, what's he doing? This, everything else, right? But either way, it's the— I hate to say the word vulnerability, but to express your emotions on paper that is your life so others can read. For me, that's a pretty big leap of faith. And we'll see what happens. For me, I'm hoping it encourages others to share their story. It doesn't have to be a story of combat. Just share their stories with their families and their loved ones. And then show the world that, hey, this is what we can do as a team. This is what I've done.
[00:16:07.380] - TJ Baird
This is what you do. And then this is a way that we can connect with each other. There are a lot of different people out there in the world. I would like to say I've been around the world. I've been to 6 continents, all of them, either from a personal or business perspective. And people just want to make a better life for their kids and their families. And if we can connect each other through stories, it's the most powerful way to do it. Then I hope that this is really what I want to get out of this, this book right here.
[00:16:31.140] - John S. Berry
Outstanding. And I found there's a couple great organizations that can help this. First of all, you got the MIC, the Military Influencer Conference. This is not about social media influencers.
[00:16:39.420] - TJ Baird
Right.
[00:16:39.820] - John S. Berry
This was created long before that. But that, you know, that's a great opportunity. A lot of authors there. And then, of course, IVMF does their Veteran Edge, which is also a great opportunity for authors and books. You know, when I was in the process of writing my book, I reached out to Ryan Hendrickson, a friend of mine who wrote Tip of the Spear, and he's just like, I'm like, yeah. He's like, oh man, that sucks. I remember how much it sucked. I'm like, oh, thanks. I was helping him to say, hey, like, you know, no, man, it'll be good. It'll go fast. He's like, oh. And this is a guy who had his leg almost completely blown off in Afghanistan, reattached, and then went back and earned the Silver Star, right? So, this guy is— and he's telling me, I thought he'd be encouraging. He's like, oh man. And he's the most positive guy ever, right? We did a 50-mile march. We did that together.
[00:17:23.080] - John S. Berry
And so, this is a guy, I mean, he's been through it and I thought he's the most positive guy I ever met. And then I'm doing the book, he's like, oh yeah, that sucks. I remember that really sucked. I'm like, Ryan, man, come on. But yeah, but it is, it's tough. And it's what the hardest thing in the world is thinking. I can't remember who said it, but that's why so few people do it. But it really is that deep thinking of how you want to portray yourself, then to have the guts to push this all out. Because we all think we know people who have served who've done a hell of a lot more than us, who have a lot better stories. It's kind of like, well, I'm just going to throw my stuff out there and let the world judge me. It takes guts to do that as well.
[00:18:00.380] - TJ Baird
Yeah. And it goes into— so I've got 4 life leader principles, and this goes to number 4 for me is live life to its fullest. You've got to take a leap of faith at some point in life, either personally, professionally, try something new, try something different. When I transitioned out of the military, I know a lot of folks go back to what's comfortable is working with the military as a contractor or as a government civilian. I didn't want to do that. In fact, I was very adamant about not doing that, right? Because know what you don't want to do is probably, I think, the most important thing coming out of a transition out of the military. But how do I transform my life outside of being a trophy husband for my wife is I want to do something completely different. I have all these poems. I have, I have all these writings. I have all these haikus. How do I make a story out of it? And that actually took a while. How do you make a story out of all these things? Because initially, this was more towards the front. I had it, I had the book divided differently from landscape to equipment to personal stuff, or, you know, what I did as a human.
[00:18:57.340] - TJ Baird
And then I said, well, this is not really, it's not a good story. In fact, my buddy said, these are really great poems, but it's not telling a story. How do you tell a story out of this? He's like, you're a storyteller. He's like, told this to me. You're a storyteller. You got to figure this one out because it won't make for a good book. It makes for good poems. But it's not really— won't really engender somebody to read it. So that took me a while and I had to flip things back, back and forth, back and forth. Got a lot of feedback from a host of different people that are my core group that have been helping me out. And so, I want to really thank them here. It's like, hey, thanks for helping me shape the story, the story of my life from literally when I left it when my daughter was a young girl and I got home and she's in her 20s and then everything in between that, how we— how I watched her grow from being away. And again, how do I reconnect with her and show her what I did in my life and how others can help and do that as well?
[00:19:46.900] - TJ Baird
Again, get that story out to, to others. It's been very difficult, but it's been fun. I've learned a lot. Like you're— like your buddy said, it is not easy. I'm sure you've experienced that as well.
[00:19:57.020] - John S. Berry
Yeah. Oh yeah.
[00:19:57.740] - TJ Baird
And you bang your head against the wall too sometimes. Like, oh my gosh, what did I— how did I dork this one up?
[00:20:04.060] - John S. Berry
Well, I found the one common thread right, in telling a great story, especially when it's your experience, you gotta figure out what to take out. And so I learned that, you know, in public speaking, I learned it as a trial lawyer, I learned it in writing. You have all these, and they're all important to you, but guess what? Most of the crap doesn't matter to the reader. So it's really getting, distilling it down into that clear narrative that they can understand and relate to because a lot of the things that matter to you that you think are important, They aren't. It's kind of like when you're hanging out at the bar with your buddy and they're telling this long rambling story and you're like, oh my gosh, what is it? And then you realize like, oh my gosh, I'm the same person. I do that all the time. So it really is, the work isn't, you know, get it all on paper, but then you have to, you really have to chop. And the real work starts, I think, in the editing. And there's actually a bar here in Omaha and it's the, I can't remember what it's called, but the sign outside says, write drunk, edit sober.
[00:20:59.220] - John S. Berry
And the whole idea is like,
[00:21:00.330] - TJ Baird
love it.
[00:21:00.590] - John S. Berry
get it all out there. You know, it doesn't matter if it's on your mind, just get it out there. But the editing, you really have to— it's called the inkwell, that's the name of the bar, but it's really thinking through like those pieces. And it is the most sobering work you'll ever do because as you edit, you have to be so honest with yourself about is this really necessary?
[00:21:21.340] - TJ Baird
I would say it can be gratifying too. So, I'm getting ready to do a speech at the end of May. In fact, the week after this book launches, I'm sitting on this Not sitting on. I'm a guest speaker for Author Your Way to Riches, which is a 3-day online.
[00:21:35.080] - John S. Berry
Great. So you're going to tell us how to monetize this, right?
[00:21:37.350] - TJ Baird
Well, I'm going to learn how to monetize. I'm actually there as a guest speaker, as a guest author. And there are a host of different people about how to monetize XYZ from marketing to everything else. So I'm looking forward to learning that because I've really just started this a year ago, like business, the business side of the house, and really to create the book. But I started with, I think, 5,500 words for a 40-minute speech, which I knew was long. It was going to be way long. So I was like, let me just get everything out, like you said. And then I would say for me, it was the most gratifying thing is cutting stuff out. Like, okay, I don't need this. I don't need this. I don't need this. I don't need this. What did I say multiple times? So now I'm down to like 3,000 words. And I added just a couple of haikus in there to really, to reinforce the message of what I'm talking about in my speech. So that got me down right now to about 20 minutes, which I think is going to be good. And that's what I wanted as a speech because there's a question and answer.
[00:22:28.150] - TJ Baird
And as I stand and speak in front of a lot of people, I generally just do a 5 to 10 minute introduction and I host a Q&A because I find that the Q&A, especially on the leadership thing, you and I could talk a lot about leadership between the two of us. I think it'd be a great conversation, but then we talk or speak at other people. It may not be what the question they want in their head answered. And so I like the Q&A piece because then you're going to answer their question specifically. And I like to do it through storytelling because then you can, again, you can, through that, you can give that lesson at the end of the story that meets their question. So yeah, I agree with you on that. You can definitely talk about it as I'm rambling right now.
[00:23:05.450] - TJ Baird
No, no, no. But here's the gold in it. I will just tell you that I recently had this experience a few months ago. I was asked to be a keynote speaker at this event. And I said, Sure, I'd love to do it. And I thought it'd be like 30 minutes. I have a great presentation. I really crystallized it down to the concise 30 minutes and I'm getting ready to go do it and I see the schedule and it's an hour and 15 minutes. And I'm like, ooh. And I'm thinking, okay, how am I going to start? But I'll tell you what, it's so much easier to make it longer than it is to make it shorter. Once you've got it clear and concise, then you can say, okay, these are the stories I'm going to expand on. I'm going to add some more detail or I'm going to add a story here. But it's getting it down to that 20, 30 minutes. As you know, was it Department of Navy did that study? Study that 18, 19 minutes is the optimal amount of time where people can pay attention. So, you go longer than that, nobody cares.
[00:23:53.200] - TJ Baird
Yep. I fully agree. And so, it was a be brief, be bold. What's the— what are the 3 Bs?
[00:23:59.470] - John S. Berry
Be gone.
[00:24:00.250] - TJ Baird
Be gone. Yeah. So, I think that's the way to do business right there. And then be funny. And like, it doesn't have to be funny, like cracking jokes all the time. But having taken a public speaking course years ago, One of the things I said is, hey, every— depending on how long your speech is, but every 7 to 10 minutes, throw a quip out there that does reinforce your message, but then it makes people think, okay, what's he going to say next?
[00:24:25.890] - John S. Berry
Right.
[00:24:26.550] - TJ Baird
So, for everybody out there who's getting ready to do a speech, make a quip that is not too off the rails, but something that puts people on the edge of their seat going, okay, now what's he going to say in a few more minutes? That's my recommendation to all you new authors and readers and not readers, but speechwriters out there.
[00:24:43.360] - John S. Berry
Yeah, and I think in leadership too, humor is a great leadership tool.
[00:24:47.130] - TJ Baird
It is.
[00:24:47.460] - John S. Berry
But here's the problem that I found as a leader. Humor is great when it works. Sometimes it's good even when it doesn't, but sarcasm does not scale. So sometimes do not confuse sarcasm and humor because when you're being sarcastic, if people don't understand, like it just, it goes bad. Humor is humor. And like I said, it's a great speaking tool. It's a great leadership tool, but sarcasm does not scale and it usually doesn't go over well. In public speaking either. People might think you're arrogant or pompous or whatever. And the same thing as a leader. So even though you may have your inside jokes with the 4 guys on your leadership team and you guys can be sarcastic all the time, you get in front of the unit, that sarcasm doesn't scale and people take things literally. And you're like, well, that's— like, no, just don't do it. I've learned that the hard way.
[00:25:31.520] - TJ Baird
I think that's wisdom that we have both learned and experiences that we probably were in our personal experience. You're like, oh, I won't do that again.
[00:25:39.250] - John S. Berry
Yeah.
[00:25:39.590] - TJ Baird
And then so for the humor side, my number 1 life principle is smile and the world smiles with you. How can you inspire other people to want to work with you? That's the big one. And then there's all— for all my life and leader principles, I could speak for hours on each one of them. But when you talk about humor, inspiring others, being a positive force for others, that's what you need to do. That's why it's my number one. And even in your darkest times, and even if you have to plaster a smile on your face, you got to walk in there, maybe you're not feeling it because leadership is a human business. And you may not be feeling it. Sometimes you just got to plaster a smile on your face, and then eventually over time, that smile becomes real. And if you are having trouble that day and you have built up enough energy credit, not really for yourself, but for the team around you, they will rally around you. Because if you just walk around with a resting, you know, RBF, and you can figure out whatever the B is on your own, people probably won't rally around you as much as you would want them to on probably some of the days you just either don't want to be there, feeling down, whatever it is.
[00:26:40.490] - TJ Baird
So again, number 1, smile and the world smiles with it. Goes right back to your humor, your humor statement.
[00:26:47.920] - John S. Berry
Yeah, I think that's a great point because if people— it's smiling is infectious, right? It's like complaining, right? If someone starts complaining, everybody starts complaining. But smile, you smile, people generally will smile back at you, even if it's just to be polite. But it does change the energy. It does change people's attitudes.
[00:27:03.980] - TJ Baird
It does. And then I think Hy-Vee's got theirs, or there's the closest point between two people is a smile. I'm probably really dorking up that phrase they have in front of their grocery store, but it's pretty cool. I walk by, I'm like, you know what? That's pretty cool. I can get behind that. I can definitely get behind it. Hey, smile. It definitely—
[00:27:23.890] - John S. Berry
A helpful smile in every aisle.
[00:27:25.400] - John S. Berry
Right. I love that.
[00:27:26.210] - John S. Berry
That's what it is.
[00:27:27.360] - TJ Baird
And that's a good one, too, because it brings the pressure down. It shows that you're, again, encouraging. You're not defensive, you're not angry, you're not aggressive. Hey, just smile, lean back and just say, okay, let's have a great discussion and enjoy life.
[00:27:46.190] - John S. Berry
Yeah, well put. Well put. So let's go to the after-action review. Your examples of great leadership and not so great leadership. You don't have to name names.
[00:27:54.470] - TJ Baird
Oh, no. So actually, I think we talked a little bit earlier. I've listened to a lot of your podcasts because this is a great Veteran led podcast, right? And I heard a lot of your Veterans on there, a lot of your leaders on here, and a lot of them didn't have a lot to say about good leaders, which I found pretty interesting. I've had some really good leaders in my time, and I was— I don't know if maybe I'm blessed with my time in the military— don't get wrong, I've had some bad leaders too. But so for those good leaders, I want a huge shout out to my good friend Mongo. He knows who he is. For our friend Chris Raines, who passed some years ago, and another good friend of mine is Sergeant Major, he's now retired, Joe Patton. Those 3 soldiers really helped shape my life when I was in the 82nd Airborne Division and really encouraged me to fail forward, fail in a controlled environment. And then when we did fail, look back on everything that we did, an after-action review, and then be able to push the gray space a little bit further into the reds that now that we can either run a lot faster, walk if we stumble a little bit more to get to our objective.
[00:28:56.420] - TJ Baird
And then when the wheels completely fall off, take a step back, reassess what we did, and get back into the training mode. And again, it's all in the control, you know, fail in that controlled environment. So I want to say huge shout out to them. On the failed, or I say the poor leadership piece, I know you and I both hear a lot about just leaders themselves. Oh, I've heard this poor leader, that poor leader. I want to focus today on toxic followership. There is nothing worse. And I, as a very, as a retired Command Sergeant Major at a nominative level working for a 3-star, very frustrating when I really, especially with my director at the time, gave an order, hey, we're going to do XYZ, and people just drag their feet. It's moral, legal, and ethical, helps the organization out. And because someone didn't agree with it and it wasn't what they wanted to do, they just drag their feet and just make it worse for everybody else. So, in that regard, toxic followership is probably one of the most challenging things a leader can face and then how to navigate that. And I also want to give a shout out to my buddy Josh Thayer, who just defended his dissertation on toxic followership.
[00:30:03.710] - TJ Baird
And so, for you, buddy, I'm totally using your term because I know we— and he interviewed me specifically about this and what it means and how detrimental it can be to an organization and then how frustrating and then challenging it can be for a leader. So those are my after-action reviews when it comes to leadership.
[00:30:20.720] - John S. Berry
Yeah, I hate the toxic followers because here's what happens. You think everybody's on board. They're the, oh yeah, we got you. But they are sabotaging you. They are. There's this level of subversion in the organization that people know it's there and it just destroys morale. And I think it's one of those things where usually the toxic followers are savvy enough that they aren't necessarily violating any rules or orders, but they're slowing down the mission. And this is why I think at the leadership team level, you have to have a solid team that understands that even if you disagree with the commander, once the commander gives that order, you go to your platoon or your company and you say, hey, guess what, guys? We got the best mission ever. Even though you're not too happy about that mission, but that's your obligation as a leader. Because you are supporting the larger organization and you're playing a role and you've got to get your team behind you, and you've got to support that role. And if you don't, then I think it's probably time to hang it up. But man, I have seen that toxic followership, and it is just, it's brutal because it's so invasive and you don't want to crush that person's soul.
[00:31:33.010] - John S. Berry
I don't know, maybe you should, but you don't want to crush their soul. You want to get them motivated, but they're intentionally dragging their feet. It's almost like, they're trying to make you fail without making it look like they— So this is a great concept. And I will tell you one of the reasons why. I've never explained this before, but one of the reasons why I asked for the after-action review is because what I've noticed is for a lot of leaders after they got out of the military, the people that they thought were horrible leaders, the leadership that they thought was the worst example, they begin to realize was some of the most effective leadership they have ever seen. And I used to hate, hate the leaders that would say things that would get a visceral reaction from me. But you know what? When I felt it, that somatic response, it stayed with me. And so, you know, no one forgets that great ass chewing you got. And, you know, pain is a teaching tool. And so, you don't make that mistake twice. And so, I think, you know, I used to be very— I would hate those leaders.
[00:32:26.890] - John S. Berry
And now I look at it and I'm like, you know what? They only had to say it once. And how many times have you, a leader, have you had to put on coats and coats of paint before people would— it would get through their head? But it only took Like, you can think of that one time where you just got smoked, right? And pushed out flutter kicks forever.
[00:32:40.530] - TJ Baird
Oh, yeah.
[00:32:41.270] - John S. Berry
It only took that one time. And then it's like, yeah, but in the civilian world, we can't really do that. But so, we, you know, we sometimes we— it's okay to use words that are a little bit pointed. And as a poet, you know, there— if you can select your weapon, your weaponry from your words, you know, you can have a profound effect because there are things that people can say that will hurt more you know, a punch to the face is going to hurt for a few seconds, maybe a few minutes. But there are words that people can use that can—
[00:33:10.690] - TJ Baird
yes—
[00:33:11.030] - John S. Berry
impair you for the rest of your life.
[00:33:12.710] - TJ Baird
The word disappointment will light up someone's eyes very quickly, even if they don't agree with you. And you could say it in a very professional manner. You could say it within a professional forum. And there are— I mean, there are another host of words, but I remember a long time ago, my First Sergeant, now retired as well, said, hey man, I'm disappointed what you just did. You could— and it, it was a continuous slap in the face. And then so I went back to my platoon area, then later on that night I sat back and just reflected on that, on the decision I made, the actions that we did. I'm like, holy crap, he was totally right. That was disappointing for me as well. And as being my own worst critic, I took that and, uh, made some significant adjustments to how I lead other people. I was a young E-5 at the time, so it's good to have that person who's got the moral courage and the personal courage to sit you down and say, hey, here's where you jack things up. Very disappointed what you did. Here's where I need you to go in the future.
[00:34:11.120] - TJ Baird
Let's get you going in the right direction because you got potential as a leader and let's move on. But it has toxic followers at some point. It's a great opportunity as leaders for some mentoring and coaching. To move in the right direction. But I will say this as a leader, if you have someone who's a toxic follower and they were just not getting on board, they're dry, and you realize that and you know that and they're not going to get on board, it's okay to let them go. In fact, it's better for the organization because when you have that cancer, you got to either make it healthy, make it part of the organization that wants to help the organization grow, or you got to get rid of that cancer because you don't want that to spread to others. And I've seen that seen too many times with very good organizations where they let a cancer spread and then the organization starts to wane until they get— they cut it out or they get it healthy. And so, they allow that organization to propel forward again into more of an excellent manner than anything from mediocre to substandard.
[00:35:06.990] - John S. Berry
So, TJ Baird, where can Veterans learn more about Warrior Dad and your new book?
[00:35:12.290] - TJ Baird
Yes. So warriordadstories.com. Get on there. In fact, I just did a big update to the website, so please join me there. And there's also a free download companion guide. You can get onto that too. It actually tells you that it gives you the lost haikus that inspired all these odes. And it shows you all my other writings. If you just go to the Creative Forge, it has my award-winning poem. And that's where all my other works are as well. So yeah, warriordadstories.com. Please join the nation, hit the waitlist for Warrior Dad. And that's where you're going to get all the updates for the current— the update— upcoming book launch, the upcoming book signing, and any other events that deal with Warrior Dad or any of my upcoming.
[00:35:50.620] - John S. Berry
And that's the preferred place to get it is on your website.
[00:35:52.960] - TJ Baird
Yes. WarriorDadStories.com.
[00:35:54.870] - John S. Berry
Outstanding.
[00:35:55.920] - John S. Berry
Thank you so much for your time today, Sergeant Major. And if you had to leave one last piece of advice to those Veterans out there who either want to write something, publish something, or take a risk, but they're a little bit hesitant to throw themselves out there because they have that professional demeanor like they've been a Command Sergeant Major for 32 years. What do you tell them?
[00:36:14.300] - TJ Baird
Do it. Enjoy it. Take that leap of faith. We took a leap of faith going into the military. We took a leap of faith getting out of the military. You have the skills, you have the knowledge, you have the experience. Share it with the world and help others see themselves in your writing so that we can connect others. So they can grow as well. And if they need to reforge themselves into something even better. So my recommendation is just do it and have fun with it.
[00:36:45.610] - John S. Berry
Thank you for joining us today on Veteran Led, where we seek to help Veterans build an even bigger, better future after military service. Unfortunately, for some of our Veterans, the roadblock to a better future is that they are not receiving all of the benefits that they earned. If you need help appealing a VA disability decision, contact Berry Law.