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The Space Between – Heaven on Earth is a companion podcast to Awakening – Heaven on Earth.
Through intimate, heart-centered conversations, this series explores the lived experience of awakening — the questions, integrations, paradoxes, and sacred pauses where transformation truly occurs.
This is the space between knowing and becoming…
where Heaven meets Earth through honest dialogue.
Welcome to the space between heaven on earth. This is a companion podcast to awakening heaven on earth created as a space for reflection, conversation, and lived experience. Here, we enter the pause between knowing and becoming, between insight and embodiment, between heaven and earth. These conversations are not about answers or conclusions. They are about presence, about listening, about reasoning together, about meeting one another honestly in the unfolding journey of awakening.
Jeffrey Aylor:I'm your host, Jeffrey Aylor. Again, welcome and thank you for entering The Space Between with us. Welcome to this episode of the space between. In our last episode, we explored what it means to heal division in the world around us. We talked about unity in action and how our daily choices contribute either to connection or separation.
Jeffrey Aylor:But today we bring that conversation home. Literally home. This episode is called Healing the Family, the First Circle of Love. Because before we learned anything about politics, anything about religion, before culture, before being exposed to society, we learned relationship through family, and many of us family became our first experience of both love and pain. So today we're going to explore what does healing look like within families, and how can we move toward greater understanding and compassion and connection.
Jeffrey Aylor:So I want to welcome this morning. Have Perna Devi is with us again this morning. We have Joe Dermody and Sherry Keyes joining us for this great conversation, and as always, welcome to each of you and how much I greatly appreciate every time we have a chance to get together and and share our experiences and thoughts around some of these interesting topics. It's it's been a joy, and this one we're going to do very similar as we have the last several conversations where we're going to approach this in different sections. And today, the first section of our questions and thought are going to be centered around family as our first teacher.
Jeffrey Aylor:You think about the fact that psychology teaches that most of us are pretty much hardwired within the first seven years of our experience, and most of that is before we even get into public education or other education, and the family is the primary source of most of that. Wiring that we get that that. Foundation that we get established. So with that, our first question is what are some of the greatest gifts? Your family gave you.
Jeffrey Aylor:And we'll start with Purna.
Purna Devi:Well, what a loaded question. Right? Greatest gifts. You know, when you ask me these questions, Jeff, I tend to turn them inside out. And so oftentimes, our greatest gifts, our greatest teachings are the most painful ones.
Purna Devi:Right? Sometimes we think our gifts feel good. Right? And I believe that through my own lived experience, a lot of the gifts I received through my lineage, through my ancestry, have been teachings of how not to parent, of how not to show up. You know, I've, we'll get to forgiveness later, but I grew up in a really volatile home and, you know, our family is our connection to belonging, to safety, to co regulation and to boundaries, all of these things.
Purna Devi:And so when you don't have that growing up, we can either continue to perpetuate that and live through that wound and those survival patterns that we've developed or, oftentimes it's and, we will do that until we do our healing journey and our healing work to then begin to develop what we didn't have growing up. So I think a lot of my gifts stem from the painful lessons I received through my family.
Joe Dermody:I was fortunate growing up that I had kind of two families. And again, that resulted in an early divorce that my parents had. So my parents got divorced when I was somewhere two or three. And through that, I gained a stepfather, and I still was able to retain the dermity side of my family and a good relationship with my my biological father. And it was it's been fantastic.
Joe Dermody:So through that extended family, I was still able to I gained I had so much love so much love growing up, and I'm very fortunate for that. I have more siblings due to that. I have a incredible amount of cousins, extended family. So I I gained the gift of love. I gained the gift of understanding and forgiveness and learning a lot about relationships as I have grown up and found out what happened with those why the split happened.
Joe Dermody:And so I've gained a lot through my family of how not to do some things, how to do others. So I've I've learned a lot of what I know now through my family. So it is a a lot packed into one question. Just leave it leave it at that.
Sherri Keys:I guess for me, I've learned growing up the importance of unconditional love. I think I've shared this with this team before, just watching specifically how my mom would give love. It just blindly there would always say that it's like there's no stranger. Family was very important to her. How she loved us and her siblings and was extremely important.
Sherri Keys:And you could see that and, you know, it's made the journey for me as I'm transitioning to, this kind of figure that's kind of more of a matriarch to some levels, never at the level that I think could ever attain that my mom showed growing up. But it was like, it's watching out was very important to me. And then, you know, watching the extended parts of the family was very insightful as well because it allowed me to gain knowledge and grow and live through experiences that I saw in others. They're good things, the things that maybe they wish they have done a little differently, but I think it made it's really formed me into who I am. I truly believe that family is, we're born into this for a reason.
Sherri Keys:It can't like divorce it. So you're gonna learn you're gonna learn from it and you're gonna grow with it. And so that's kind of my my takeaway.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, certainly family is to me a wonderful laboratory, and the gifts that I've received have been experiences of both positive and negative, how to respond, how not to respond. I certainly have experienced love. I can't say all the love's unconditional, because I think in most cases, quite honestly, most people's love is quite conditional, and it's interesting too that as I have aged. Some of those gifts have come out. Through looking back.
Jeffrey Aylor:At experiences and seeing them differently than when I actually was experiencing it. I go back and I look at that and I think I rethink it given my knowledge now and information I gained and still continue to learn both good and bad, both good and bad. I have to say my parents, I'm one of the few people, you know, I had parents that truly did love each other, and they were both married before, so I have, you know, stepbrothers and sisters, much like everybody often will share stories about that, our whole family dynamic creates a different feel, believe it or not, because I do think, again, I found that my parents showed favoritism towards my sister and I who were their natural children over my stepbrothers and sisters. Right, wrong, or indifferent. They did.
Jeffrey Aylor:It did. It was that's just things that happened, and have looking back, I look back at that now, and I don't say I feel guilty, but I see it, and it taught me a lot about how how, you know, life sometimes isn't fair. Right? And you have to go through a lot of these experiences sometimes to see that. But all those are gifts because every time we learn, every lesson we learn is a gift, and that's what we're here for.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's my belief is that that's what this lifetime is all about. So goodness, just this one question we could spend the entire time just unpacking it. But as we think about this, you know, there what are some of the specific lessons about love, belonging, and relationship? What really jumps out at you when you think about the less what lesson big lessons of love, belonging, and relationship that you learned growing up?
Purna Devi:You know, one thing I learned was and, again, I I'm gonna take the inverted approach, was about conflict resolution. Growing up, that didn't exist in my household. There was no such thing as healthy conflict, as you know, folks that came together and shared conflicting viewpoints. Because let's be honest, relationships are hard and to have a healthy relationship, it doesn't mean that it's conflict free. And so I think, you know, early dynamics of family should help us learn how to resolve conflict and stay in unity with oneself and each other.
Purna Devi:So I did not have that blueprint growing up, and that affected me a great deal stumbling forward through my relationships. And now it's something that I practice with my own son, and we resolve conflict in such a healthy way. And I you know, again, invertedly, I'm thankful that I saw the contrast so explicitly that conflict resolution is such an important dynamic in my relationship and my family now.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, you know, I often I often say the hardest lessons are some of the best lessons. The most difficult experiences, the most painful things give us some of the greatest learning, and to be able to transmute that and alchemize those experiences and turn that lead into gold Yeah. Is is really, not everybody can do that, Parny. You know.
Purna Devi:It's difficult.
Jeffrey Aylor:This is this is why people seek counseling and have many issues that they because they struggle with the transmutation of of that experience into something and turning it into something that can be, yeah, even positive. So
Purna Devi:And I do wanna tack on, you know, because I don't want this to be just a trauma dump on my family episode that I did learn a great deal about work ethic. My parents came from nothing. They are incredibly hard workers. My father, an entrepreneur who came from the holler in Kentucky, dirt poor, one of the only to complete high school, right, and to have a high school education in his family. And the work ethic I have today, right, the business I've built from nothing, I really thank my father and witnessing how he really just came from nothing and made quite a successful business for himself.
Purna Devi:So there are, you know, there are good some some good things as well for sure that I've learned.
Joe Dermody:So so I have two that are just huge to me, and one is the I didn't jump into marriage and a real strong relationship until I was a little bit older. So my my parents got married when they were very young. My mom was pregnant with me in high school, and they got married right after she got out of high school, I believe. My dad was in the navy. So I waited until I was almost 30, right around 30 till I got married, And I think that was because of that, you know, learning her situation, and I didn't want to get I wanted to get married once.
Joe Dermody:I know everybody wants to get married only once. Right? That's the whole thinking behind everything initially. You don't go into a relationship thinking, well, this is gonna be a short one, and then we'll try again on the second. That's never anybody's initial thought, I'm pretty sure.
Joe Dermody:So that was one of the big lessons was I wanted to wait. I wanted to find the right person, and I took a little longer than most people. Then the second one was the the ability of my stepdad to bring me in and treat me as his own from the beginning, and it it is amazing. I don't feel any different at all than my half brother. Right?
Joe Dermody:He was able to bring me in, and he is my dad. Right? I mean and that happens, I think, also because I I was so young when he came into my life, but still his ability to love me unconditionally just like his own has been an amazing gift to me and so much respect and love for him right back. So I think the ability to find that love for somebody has transferred over, and I can see that in me as well as I look back and reflect and what a great gift he has imparted upon me. So, yeah, I'd say those are the two biggest things I can can see about the lessons that they've given to me.
Sherri Keys:For me, I guess there's a there's a lot, and I'm just gonna home in on a couple. I think just starting with the fact that, based off the times, growing up, during the time that my parents were living and raising a family, times were different, a little harder. Both my parents worked in manufacturing actually, And back then times were good and times were bad. But as kids, never knew it or felt it or understood it. But they would always make a way and they would always instill, you know, in my brother, myself, you know, you just, you work hard, you're gonna, you know, you excel, you'll do great things.
Sherri Keys:Always wanting to make sure we had more position more to have than what they had was huge. And I'm actually the first undergraduate in my family at that timeframe and the first graduate with a master's degree as well. And I like to think that the hard work and focus that was instilled in me helped me build a footprint that other people in my family were able to kind of follow as well. So that instillment of hard work, you can be anything that you wanna be if you put yourself, your mind and your heart in it was impactful for me. And I think the other piece is just the ability, which I think is still something that we all continue to grow in that space, being able to forgive, just understanding that there's something bigger and it's hard, but just being able to look inside ourselves and humble ourselves enough, I think, to forgive the things that really won't matter and work on forgiveness of things that are larger, because I think that's how we learn to get through conflict.
Sherri Keys:And we learn our way to figure out how do you love in a way that's very unconditional?
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, me, I learned that opposites do attract. My parents probably couldn't be more different from each other. My mom was a stay at home mom, which for me is a great blessing. She was an anchor. My father worked shift work at in a steel mill, so there were a lot of times he wouldn't be present because he was working.
Jeffrey Aylor:I can always remember these are such fun memories for me that when my father would be working a three to eleven shift, three in the afternoon to eleven at night, my mom would put us to bed, And then when my dad got home, she would wake us up. And we would go have dinner. Somewhere. Before. And then he we would come back and then he would go to bed because he'd have to sleep, And then when he worked a midnight shift, lot of times before he would go to bed and get rest, we would go have a breakfast somewhere.
Jeffrey Aylor:As a family so that we could have that family time. And it really stuck with me. You know, my dad always told me. You don't have to love what you do. This was his lesson to me.
Jeffrey Aylor:You don't have to love what you do. Your job is to provide for your family and work hard. Goes back to Porny, where you talk about that work ethic, and he worked very hard and provided well without an education beyond high school and instilled in us a love for learning. He reads the dictionary for fun, so it did instill in us a desire and a love for learning and travel. So you know they're there.
Jeffrey Aylor:But what I what I also saw in their relationships. My parents were. They were both spouse centered. If if if you understand what I mean by that, their their whole sense of worth and value was centered in each other. And in many ways, think that was good, but then again, there's other aspects of that that I find it probably aren't good or healthy because.
Jeffrey Aylor:It goes back to what we were talking about with the masculine and the feminine. They they they completed each other, but neither one of them were able to become complete individually because of that. And when my mother passed away, it becomes very obvious that, you know, my dad's world just just shattered because he and he didn't have a number of other relationships for himself that he could rely on to get him through and deal with that grief. Even to this day, you know, he's still it and and I and honestly, I think you know he's he's he's learning himself that you know that that. You know he's created his situation.
Jeffrey Aylor:We create our reality through our beliefs and through our So you know, I have learned a lot about. Again, love is a. It's a word people use, but I don't think they really think about it sometimes about what that really means, and and I hear people talk about unconditional love, but I see very little love that's actually unconditional. And and that's probably one of the greatest things for me to grow and develop is to really learn to see beyond. And not treat people differently.
Jeffrey Aylor:Because of what I see with my eyes. So my goodness, we can just again this is just this is what I love about this topic. Know, we know our family experiences. Continue to influence us as we've become adults. All of us here are adults, and whether those experiences were joyful or whether they were difficult or somewhere in between.
Jeffrey Aylor:We know that they often shape the way we see the lens through which we see ourselves and other people. So as we go into this next set of questions, it's really going to be centered around family wounds. And generational patterns, because I do believe Many of the things that we see and experience with our family. Our generational, it's handed down from generation to generation. So what are some of the ways pain or unresolved patterns within your family?
Jeffrey Aylor:How can those things be passed from one generation to the next?
Purna Devi:Well, I think a lot of the patterns that we learn when we're younger, they repeat, right? And so again, if my family is my blueprint for conflict resolution, for safety, for boundaries, for communication, for trust, for love, for security, all of these really fundamental principles that humans need to become healthy whole individuals. Right? These are basic fundamental needs, you know, in addition to housing and food. So we could go into, right, the diets passed down and in all of these different ways in which our familial lineage creates normalcy.
Purna Devi:My I come from, again, this Appalachian family. Right? They're hard workers and also physical mental health were not priorities ever. Ever. Right?
Purna Devi:These are struggling Appalachian folks that are working from morning to night, but their dental care was not the top priority. Their, you know, what they're eating was not the top priority and how they're, again, showing up in conflict resolution or in their mental health was not their priority. And so while many of my past generations were focused on survival and also interwoven with incredibly toxic patriarchal behaviors, toxic masculine behaviors, you know, a great deal of diminishing of the feminine. I find it extraordinary that I am now living beyond those generational wounds and those patterns. And it's because of that lineage where I saw the women, you know, strong women beaten and and harmed and oppressed by their male partners.
Purna Devi:And, again, just everyone trying to survive, I just feel quite extraordinary to be, I feel such a rebel, and it heals generations past. My ancestors, I feel, are rooting me on. It makes me emotional to think about how they have their hands on my back saying, go girl, and how I have changed and disrupted those ancestral traumas and transmuted, like you said, a lot of that so that, you know, my son can see something different in the generations beyond me. I'll be the ancestor that they said, wow. Look at her.
Purna Devi:Right? What a what a fiery force of disruption she was.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, it's interesting because we my family is from Eastern Kentucky, but they're from the Northern part of Eastern Kentucky, which to them was the big city, so Ashland, Kentucky was the big city for people who grew up in in other parts of that Appalachian area of Kentucky, Virginia, West Virginia, and you know I think of the book The Hillbilly Elegy, if you've read that, right, and the culture is so strong.
Sherri Keys:Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:And our son Joel, who is not with us today, but has been on the podcast so many times, His first marriage was to a girl who grew up in Pikeville, Kentucky. Right? So that whole area, family lived in a holler, the whole family lived in one holler, drove down a lane, and it was a you know sister, mother, brother, aunt, uncle. They were coal miners, most of them by trade, and the culture there was so incredibly strong. They're very different, and you can see it because they live in their own little.
Jeffrey Aylor:They had their own little world, but their philosophy, were you're either a Christian or a drug addict. That's what they were saying. Family, they're either a Christian or a drug addict, and then in many cases they were both. They were Christian drug addicts and. But to break that chain, so what we're going to get into eventually is chain breaking, which is what you're doing.
Jeffrey Aylor:You're breaking a chain of cultural learning that's handed down and taught from generation to generation. This is how you treat women. This is how men are. This is what a you know, and it's based on this this Christian belief that we have about, well that same concept exists in in Muslim countries. Let me tell you, women are oppressed, women are downtrodden, men treat them with that exact same mentality, right?
Jeffrey Aylor:And it's cultural, generational. I think of Anita Moorjani, if you're not familiar with her wonderful story. She was Indian descent, parents were Indian, Hindu, grew up in Hong Kong, and went to Catholic schools. So you talk about a crazy background she had as far as being raised, but the influence her father had on her because of that patriarchal, the basic Hindu patriarchal society, the way women are treated. She dealt with so much guilt and so much shame because she was trying to she was resisting Those cultural expectations and ended up.
Jeffrey Aylor:She ended up having cancer because her body started manifesting. The guilt and the shame. And she had a near death experience. And in that near death experience, this was the beautiful lesson is the one of the first people she experienced was her father, who in the astral world said, oh honey, I am so sorry. I love you unconditionally, and then and, you know, go go and be and do and become everything you want.
Jeffrey Aylor:And and and that again, this is the hard part about looking beyond what we're experiencing here in this aspect of life, knowing that there's the root of their being is still Perfect. And you're going to experience that. You know, we all experience that. So she ended up after her near death experience. She was on her deathbed, came back and within two weeks her cancer was gone.
Jeffrey Aylor:And now she's out teaching the world these things. And it's it's just one of those miraculous healings and and stories, but she's a chain breaker. And it just to me, I just think that's a beautiful so anyone who hasn't read or heard anything from Anita Moorjani, I definitely recommend you spend some time with her because she is she like you and others. Because unfortunately, you're not alone.
Purna Devi:Of course.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? You think about how many people how many people are experiencing that?
Joe Dermody:I was sitting here thinking as every as you guys are talking, first of all, great books, by Anita. So, I got to experience those two. But as I'm sitting here thinking, first off, I don't I don't know a lot about my I know some, but not a lot about my family history. And from generation to generation, I know a little bit, but not a whole lot. I didn't get to know my grandparents very well on either side.
Joe Dermody:I was very fortunate to get to know my great grandparents from my stepdad, which is a gift a great gift that I got to sit down and talk with them. But I'm sitting here thinking about the nature and nurture aspect of development, and the family is kind of the place where you get both. You get the the the nature side and with what's passed down to you. You get the nurture side from what's taught to you, and you're getting both from your family. And it's kind of the the the commingling of both.
Joe Dermody:And it it's that opportunity to learn from your family. And sometimes it's not always the correct lessons that you're getting. And in my aspect, from my myself, from I was always taught that, well, you've got the Dermody knees. They're always gonna be a problem for you. They're always gonna pain you, especially as you get older.
Joe Dermody:It starts when you're young. You play sports. They're really bad. And then as you get older, they're just gonna get worse and worse. So I grew up with that, thinking that.
Joe Dermody:And as I I wrestled in high school, I played football. I was a catcher. Right? All of these different things that were just gonna be horrible for my knees. And after halftime or the middle of the game and everything that I played, my knees would start to hurt because this is what was ingrained in me growing up.
Joe Dermody:And then as I got a little bit older, my knees were always hurting. It's funny because now I'm turning 50 this year. My my knees no longer hurt. I have uncles now that have the Dermody knees, and they are hobbling all over the place. And my knees don't hurt.
Jeffrey Aylor:They're like seeds that get planted. Absolutely. In your in your in your mind. Right? And then you start creating that reality.
Joe Dermody:That's right. You you just grow. You they they just grow and grow and grow. And I think that's one of the things that I wish people would learn from early on is you don't have to let every seed that's planted grow, or grow into what everybody thinks they need to grow into. We get weeds.
Joe Dermody:Some control. That's right. Pluck the weeds. Let the flowers grow. Right?
Joe Dermody:Yeah. And I am grateful that that those those weeds no longer grow.
Jeffrey Aylor:But you gotta tend to the garden. Right? That that's work. And anybody who's ever gardened, and I love gardening as a metaphor, and that's why it's used throughout all the sacred traditions, you know, God is wonderful in creation, but without us helping weed the garden, you know, even so it's it's a mutual. It's a co creation.
Jeffrey Aylor:You've got to put in the effort to tend the soil and and weed and and aerate and make sure that you're feeding and so that that work. This is one of the things I'm hoping our nonprofit will be able to help with, and that's get people back into gardening, get them back into the get their hands in the dirt, get your feet into the dirt, ground them, help them learn and and realize that the effort it takes to grow natural things is the same effort it's gonna take spiritually to weed your the heart. Your heart is the garden, and how do you tend it?
Joe Dermody:Right? And then one more thing because I just realized as you were talking there that generationally, and normally once sometimes it skips generations, you realize that you have a gardener in your family that typically is the person that keeps everyone together. And for me, that was like my grandmother who I didn't get to know very well, but because she is that gardener, not necessarily a out in the out in the yard gardening, she's a family gardener, and she is that person that helps everybody get along, cope, and keep everyone together.
Jeffrey Aylor:They're like a facilitator. Sherry It's
Joe Dermody:exactly what it is.
Jeffrey Aylor:Yeah. So as Sherry, I'm sure, comes on here and shares her experience. That's what she feels. That's what her mother was doing. Right.
Jeffrey Aylor:Was being that facilitator of love and family and uniting and glues you know, the glue that holds. Yeah. Now that's a lot of work.
Joe Dermody:It is. But, yeah, but you it's so fun now because now I'm gonna be thinking of that person forever now as the gardener of the family. Right? The one that is tending those weeds and helping everybody as a family stay together. Right?
Joe Dermody:I think that's a beautiful image. I think that's great. So thanks for that, Jeff. That's that's wonderful.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, I have to say one gardener can feed many people. Yeah. Right? Yeah. You know one person working hard in a garden can create a lot more food than they themselves can consume.
Jeffrey Aylor:They have to share it. Yeah. And I think that's what we're here to do is be gardeners of unity, gardeners of love, gardeners of wisdom, gardeners of and and to share that and to feed and and allow people. Right? And then maybe they become a gardener.
Jeffrey Aylor:Not everybody's gonna be a gardener.
Joe Dermody:Even a fledgling a fledgling gardener, right, somebody that's just learning how to tend tend to those simple weeds can help tremendously, right, in a family and an environment. Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, it's a gift. It's a gift.
Joe Dermody:It's a
Jeffrey Aylor:lot like as as a chef cooking, not everybody enjoys cooking. I do, and one meal feeds multiple people, and it's a joy to share that. A joy to share that.
Joe Dermody:Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:And it's the same with this to, you know, to me, we're just fixing a dish here, and it's all beautiful, and that all all these different ingredients come together and make one beautiful thing that we can share with the listeners.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. Absolutely.
Sherri Keys:Wow, I'm going keep that term Gartner near and dear. I think that's a great way to kind of explain it. I guess for me, just going back, I didn't know my so my mom's mom died when she was like 15. She died of things that in today's world there we had cured, like blood pressure, things like that. She worked extremely hard.
Sherri Keys:But on her deathbed, understanding for my mom was, I need you to leave down south and I need you to come to Ohio because I think you'll have a better opportunity. And so, you know, very young after high school graduation, my mom graduated early from high school, actually 15. She came to Ohio and just, you know, there was a little family here, but just, you know, growing up in the absence of a person that was very strong. My granddad stayed there because she had a younger brother, but she followed her mom's wishes. You need to do this.
Sherri Keys:And she did it and worked hard to have a better life for herself, her and her husband, my dad, the family, my brother and I. And I felt like it was that foundation. I mean, would always tell me that. Her car. So this chain that I started with my grandmother to my mother and now me is very important because I remember always looking at my two daughters and like, you know, I'm gonna be the best that God will allow me to be for you.
Sherri Keys:Best example that I can do. And I really feel like that allowed me, you know, to impact them in a way that I hope and I feel at least what I see has been very positive. You know, just the teachings and instilling in them that no matter what the obstacles are presented to you, you can do better. Can, you know, I will give you the best I can give you with hopes that you will be in a position in your life to uplift people, family, you know, and and give the best that you can give. And I really feel like I had some impact on doing that.
Sherri Keys:Because it was instilled in me, from my mom, and I only can imagine that it happened, you know, in prior generations. So that part of it, I think, is just yeah. It's huge for me.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, you and your family, Sherry, honestly, carry A challenge and a burden African American, right? And. You've had to deal with things. That are very different. As a family.
Jeffrey Aylor:And how has your you think back, you know, how did your mother equip you and help you and and what generational issues did you have to overcome, you know, to get to where you are today?
Sherri Keys:I mean, a lot, you know, it's and even in the the footprint of my generation, even raising kids, there was complexities. But I think, hopefully, I navigated through this as I was raising them based off of just going through my own life scenarios and just having a mom as that figure to kind of continue to allow me to know and be strong in my own skin, if that makes sense. It truly has, you know, it truly has molded me into who I am. And I, you know, again, I I think it really makes it easy to have unconditional love when you've gone through journeys where sorry. But it not always felt like you got it back.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, you're you're you're a wonderful example, and which is why we love you and love you here and love you being a part of this conversation. It's so important. Your perspective is so important, and your experience is so important. And we all know that there are not only issues and pressures that occur within the family that make things difficult, but when you have that and you have the external things pushing on you and your family that you in many cases don't have any control over, learning to deal with that, learning to live, and learning to grow and prosper in what would be considered, in my opinion, unfair circumstances. It's a testament.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's a testament to you. It's a testament to your family and your mother and your father and and the generations that have molded them at the same time.
Sherri Keys:No. I was gonna say I appreciate that. Sorry for the gap there in responding. But, I think it's a journey and we're still learning, but all of us, everyone. I think it definitely is something that hopefully one day, and we're getting there that we can start breaking chains, Right?
Sherri Keys:And and just you know? Because I think that's the plan. You know? Like
Jeffrey Aylor:Oh my goodness. That to me, if if we can help one person listening take the take from this conversation and gain the strength to break a chain of unhealthy generational conditioning, then this this is all worthwhile. I had someone yesterday we were talking about the work I'm doing, the podcast, all the things we're doing here, and so well how are you promoting it? I said I'm not. It's not my job to promote this.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's my job to create, and the universe will promote it because it's there. It's the universe. It's God's work, and if one person benefits, perfect. I feel satisfied that this is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. So we know that, you know, what's the role of awareness in all this?
Jeffrey Aylor:What role does that play, awareness play in breaking generational cycles? So Perna, I really specifically want to ask you this. In your healing work, do you find that many people are carrying these generational family wounds and they don't recognize it? They don't even realize that they're doing this.
Purna Devi:Absolutely. I think folks oftentimes will come in thinking that we're gonna they're gonna talk about a certain present day issue in their life. And that doesn't mean they aren't experiencing symptoms in their present day relationships or in their mind or in their body, right, Or in their emotional state. It quickly becomes apparent though, as we trace the origins of this modern day struggle, We trace it typically back to our childhood development and our family of origin. And I think that healing truly involves us becoming conscious of those things that we've experienced as automatic or fundamental, or that we have taken on as our personality consciousness or identity or that's just the way it's always been or that's the way my family is or that's just who I am.
Purna Devi:And those sorts of expressions can keep us from digging deeper into why and how those those ways of being that are perpetuating our suffering have actually developed. So that a lot of my work, whether they intend it initially or not, tends to go back to childhood work.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, in the continuous improvement work that Joe and Sherry and I do, one of the things we teach is that it's easier to deal with a problem the closer you are to when the problem is gets created.
Sherri Keys:Absolutely. So
Jeffrey Aylor:solving a problem within a system at the front at the beginning and not then allowing that problem to ripple throughout the rest of the system, all the damage it does is it flows through. You want to go back to, so again this gets back to I would really love in some way to ultimately be able to influence the way we educate children and the way we work with children. You know, first of all, I've come to the conclusion that I got this concept from, Neil Donald Walsh and the Conversations with God books, and if you're not familiar with those, highly recommend them. But in there, you know, in his conversation with God, God says, you know, just because you can have children does not mean you should raise children. And I firmly believe that in many cases there are people who they can have a child, but they're not really capable of raising a child, and we wound and we hurt children in so many ways, and if we could help them when they're young and help them identify some of the things when they're young, think about how much you're preventing in the future and not letting those issues fester over years and years and years.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right?
Purna Devi:In yoga, there is something called Samskaras. Samskaras are deeply conditioned impressions that over time, those grooves, and if we're taking that perspective of neuroscience, Right? They used to believe that we developed a pattern or a way of thinking and the brain was like concrete, and it just was stuck there. And we understand the neuroplasticity of how the brain works and these samskaras, these literal grooves come from patterns and habitual behaviors. And the more we do them, the deeper that groove is created.
Purna Devi:And the more positive effort then it's going to take to smoothen that groove over or to you know, I think of it like the Grand Canyon. How much dirt do I have to throw into the Grand Canyon before it becomes level? And some of us have generational Grand Canyons of developmental behaviors. Right? And so like you said, the earlier we can catch these things, the more shallow those grooves are going to be to heal later.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right. The probability of resolving issues. You know, Paramahansa Yogananda touched on Samskaras quite a bit in his his teachings, his reading, his writings, and he he would talk about it like a skier. When people are skiing their their skis get into grooves, and it's really difficult for them to get up out of that groove. And even when they do for a time, a lot of times the skis will find their way back into the grooves.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? It's just a it's almost like a magnet. These grooves can can pull you back. They're so strong. The influence of those grooves is so strong.
Purna Devi:And it's rooted to our survival patterns. And so my system believes it's keeping me safe. And maybe at one time, it did. And I think part of this healing work as adults, right, is to recognize that, wait, that pattern that was developed that was once keeping me safe is no longer keeping me safe. Now it's limiting and and harming me.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, in my studies and my experience, I've often wondered why do people and and and often. An abuser was typically abused. Again, it's it tends to be generational. They learn this and they think that's normal behavior because that's what happened with them. They think that's how a man should treat a woman or a woman should treat a child or a man and.
Jeffrey Aylor:And and then you look at the people that are that are experiencing abuse and you say why do they stay? Even though they recognize it and even though they can see it and they feel it, they know it's not right, they stay. Again, it's the power of the pull of that groove because they it's familiar.
Purna Devi:That's it.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right? They'd rather stay with what they know, even the devil they know. So that brings us then into what I think is probably the most important element of this conversation, and that is forgiveness and understanding. And family healing often brings us right face to face with forgiveness. Not necessarily excusing, it's not excusing, but it's understanding.
Jeffrey Aylor:Acknowledging the reality And then figuring out how to move forward in a in a positive or constructive way. So what does forgiveness mean to you? What's it mean to you? It's like love. It's a word that gets thrown around all the time.
Jeffrey Aylor:But what's it really mean to you?
Purna Devi:I tend to think about and talk about in my sessions, about forgiveness as a side effect of becoming whole, as a side effect of compassion. So many people will say, well, you should just forgive if it were that easy. Right? But it really isn't that easy. And so I think it's a symptom of us beginning to heal our inner world.
Purna Devi:And I think forgiveness is also related to boundaries. I doesn't mean I'm bypassing what happened, and it doesn't mean I'm accepting, but I'm no longer self abandoning. I'm no longer allowing what this person did to define the way I live. And sometimes that means I'm not in relationship with them. Sometimes that means I set it means I set a boundary.
Purna Devi:Sometimes it means that I'm not in relationship because I can no longer tolerate, right? Because I'm giving to myself in a way where I am loving and compassionate and working on wholeness within. And so my inner world is now established in a way that I'm recognizing what I can tolerate and not tolerate. And so I think sometimes reconciliation isn't required for forgiveness. Sometimes the other person isn't required for forgiveness.
Purna Devi:You know, I sat in years with my mother. I brought her to therapy time and time again, and all I wanted to be was heard and understood and that never happened. So part of me, I think, in my forgiveness work was accepting also reality on reality's terms that my mother was never going to show up in that forgiveness dynamic in the way that I was seeking. So then I had to do the work of deep inner acceptance, which led to me forgiving her and having compassion for, again, her own ancestral traumas, for the way she grew up, for the level of emotional development where she is, right? So I think it's a lot of acceptance.
Joe Dermody:So when in order to forgive someone, I think that you are experiencing pain or hurt of some sort. Right? I I I think. So I think the the power to forgive, the ability to forgive, I think it is the the intentional the intentional process to allow that to the intentional process to get rid of that pain, that hurt to let it go. And and that's not easy.
Joe Dermody:And and you had to realize, I think, that what is causing that pain, that hurt, that want of revenge, right, that that power that it held over you, and then to intentionally say, it's no longer gonna have that power over me. I think that is what forgiveness means to me.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, you're using you're using again alchemical terms. Right. Right. Yeah. You have a pain.
Jeffrey Aylor:How do you transmute that? Right? Who has the pain? You or the person that you're pained by?
Joe Dermody:It's you. It is 100% you.
Jeffrey Aylor:So how many times does the person that you need to forgive not even know that you have a problem or a pain with them? They don't even know you need to forgive them in some cases. Because they don't know that there's anything wrong from their perspective.
Joe Dermody:Right.
Jeffrey Aylor:So I always have to ask who is forgiveness for? Who's forgiveness for? Is it for them or is it for you? We've we fail to give it because we think we're giving it to someone, and the reality is it's not for them. It's totally an internal transmutation.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's not being bound. It's not letting it control. It's not giving over to it because when you give over to it, it now has influence and control on you. You're freeing yourself through forgiveness. You're not forgetting.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's the other thing I think is so important. We don't forget, right? Yeah. Yeah, but you have to transmute that. Always say, know, being bitter against someone is like taking poison and hoping they die.
Jeffrey Aylor:From it. Well, yeah, okay. These bitter pills. These are some bitter pills. Yeah, So
Joe Dermody:it's also not saying, you know, what happened was okay because it's not okay. No. Right. No. Yeah.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's very complex because a lot of times the person that you need to forgive doesn't know in their heart or mind that what they did is not okay. Right. Or they wouldn't have done it.
Joe Dermody:Mhmm. It is the same same aspect, though. You can't you can't let it keep happening either, though, because then it's
Jeffrey Aylor:But that gets back to Perna's point of it doesn't mean reconciliation. It doesn't mean that you're gonna be now spending all your time with that person and that everything is okay. No. Right. There have to be boundaries.
Jeffrey Aylor:There has to potentially be. It could be separation.
Joe Dermody:Mhmm.
Jeffrey Aylor:For the sake of for the sake of safety and protection. Exactly. Sherry, I know that you don't have anybody.
Sherri Keys:Oh my gosh. I've been on this earth quite a little quite a many years. I mean, it's all a journey. So I I go back to saying, like, you know, forgive is not to forget. So I'm not going to forget the pain, but I do feel like that being in a place where you can forgive is part of that one of those steps toward unconditional love that you might have for yourself, for your family, for something else, but you're able to rationalize within your heart, within how you feel the the disappointment or anger.
Sherri Keys:And sometimes people don't even care whether you forgive them or not. So it's either they're not aware, and maybe they're aware, they just don't care. And and there are a broad sense of circumstances that probably encompass all of that. But I think none of it really matters because to your point, Jeff, forgiveness starts within you. It's something that you need in order to heal to move on.
Sherri Keys:And that forgiveness that gives you the opening to be able to move forward in life for yourself, for maybe the benefit of family and others in a way that could continue change or whatever we want to call that. But I think it is an element of representing unconditional love. Again, I mean, that's how I look at it. Forgiveness is hard. It is you know?
Sherri Keys:But and and it and people sometimes never get healed with that. But maybe the thing is that I can forgive and still have this memory because the memory is not going to go away, but the memory is important because it teaches us something. The lesson that we needed to live.
Jeffrey Aylor:I firmly believe that this is why there is so much sickness in the world. Physical illness and sickness in the world. It's people harboring bitterness. Bitterness is poison, and it manifests in our physical bodies when we hold it inside. So one of my favorite studies that I've done is from a book called A Course in Miracles.
Jeffrey Aylor:So anyone who has ever been exposed to that, which is actually it's so interesting because I I so enjoyed A Course in Miracles that I bought a bunch of the books and gave them away to people, and I actually had a dear friend. I think I talked about this on on the podcast. I gave it to them, and they're Christian people, and they felt so uncomfortable like it was the devil, you know, because it wasn't the Bible, and okay, well let me tell you what the foundation of A Course in Miracles is. Choose love over fear every day, and forgiveness is love in action. Forgive, Because forgiveness is what brings about the miracles.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's what brings about healing. It's what brings about. The not just physical healing, but emotional and spiritual healing. This is this is the whole message Jesus came to share, was choose love over fear and forgive and watch the miracles happen. Watch them happen.
Jeffrey Aylor:I don't know about you, but I think that's beautiful.
Sherri Keys:Oh, that's absolutely beautiful. A 100%. Very much in line. And that is interesting to me because I I know people that have will not let it go. I mean, the people that they're upset with are not even on this earth anymore, and they're still mad about it.
Sherri Keys:And it I mean, it's it's the You're not going to receive your blessings. You're not going to be able to heal yourself. That person is off to God has taken them to another place in this world, because I believe there's multiple worlds. Why are you still on earth right now holding anger in your heart for something that happened a hundred thousand years ago and can never be rectified, not in the way in which you're gonna be content with. So you need to move on so that you can get your blessings.
Jeffrey Aylor:Right. The Christian scriptures call those roots of bitterness. Roots of bitterness.
Sherri Keys:But it it impacts their life to a point where they just
Jeffrey Aylor:They can't enjoy.
Sherri Keys:Yeah. They can't enjoy.
Jeffrey Aylor:Have peace. Yep. They they they they can't. They can't experience it.
Sherri Keys:Yep. It's not good.
Jeffrey Aylor:So again, Parna, how do we hold compassion for these family members and still honor healthy boundaries?
Purna Devi:Well, I think, again, it's rooted in everyone not abandoning themselves. Right? I think compassion without boundaries is self abandonment. And so the more we can do the work, I think to you know, it's interesting. My family lineage, I come from a very long line of bitter women.
Purna Devi:My mother and my grandmother can recount the stories like Sherry was talking about of people that have done them wrong for years and years. And my grandmother actually is passed away, but she had what they call in layman's terms, broken heart syndrome. Heart part of her heart was literally calcified, was literally hardened. And I just think about how sad that is. Right?
Purna Devi:Like you like we've been saying it literally manifests. And so first I think we have to realize what's important. Right? Can we hold nonjudgmental space? You all know I've been going through it.
Purna Devi:And, you know, we don't need to get into the specifics, but the less judgmental I am of myself and and of others, the more gracefully I can forgive in the moment when someone is harming me. I don't have to always understand why or how or what, but because I love myself, because I have not abandoned myself in the darkest places, I can hold myself with love and compassion. Therefore, I can extend that love and compassion to people that we might look at and say they don't deserve forgiveness. Well, who am I to judge who deserves forgiveness or not? And I think the divine mother, right, that essence of the divine loving mother, we're all children in her lap regardless of what we've done.
Purna Devi:And so I always utilize that vision, not of the hardened hearted grandmother, but rather that compassionate, gracious, graceful, divine mother where it doesn't matter what you've done, you deserve forgiveness and compassion and a space of nonjudgment and and unconditional love like Sherry's been talking about.
Jeffrey Aylor:That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I'm gonna absolutely flip this conversation on its head.
Sherri Keys:Beautiful.
Jeffrey Aylor:Because I have come to believe, and and you can can agree or disagree with me, that in the past, I always felt like, well, I didn't get to choose my family. I didn't get to choose my parents. I didn't get to choose what country I was born into. I didn't get to choose the socioeconomic experience that I might have. I didn't get to choose that.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, if I wouldn't if I don't get to choose, if I'm not involved in that process, then I'm a victim. Well, I've come to understand that we I believe we do choose what experiences we're gonna come into this life and have. I think we do choose as a soul and make contract before we enter this earth plane each time, because I don't think we do it one time. I think we do it many, many, many, many times. I have come to understand that I did choose, I did choose the parents I wanted to be raised by.
Jeffrey Aylor:I did choose where I wanted to be raised geographically. I did choose. I chose my family, and I chose them because I needed to have experiences with them and through them because we are a soul family. More than likely we've come through multiple lifetimes together with each other, and I could have been the parent, and I could have been them, and I could have been the mother, and I could have been the and it's this because it's all about evolution. It's all about evolving and growing into oneness and unity With the divine, all of it is designed for us to learn this, so sometimes.
Jeffrey Aylor:I think healing expands our understanding of family. We discover family is not only biological either. It can also be spiritual. That it can be intentional. We choose people that we want to interact with.
Jeffrey Aylor:And I know Joe and Sherry, we talk about this all the time. We are a work family, but we are way more than that. And we have chosen to at this time to be. And we told you, Porna, when we came to you for Ricky trading, we could tell you are now a part of this family. You're a part of our soul family.
Jeffrey Aylor:So what does chosen family mean to you? What does that mean? Your chosen family.
Purna Devi:I think on the bigger scale, you really hit the nail on the head that we choose everything. I also agree, right? And, you know, the yogic philosophy and many other philosophies across the world state that we, right, we're sitting around the table as souls in the, you know, etheric astral world in that sense, and we have contracts, we have karmic to dos. And I think sometimes the chosen family, the folks that hurt us the most, we have the most serious contracts with. Those are the folks that love us the most that they signed that contract to take on the karma to teach us that really painful lesson.
Purna Devi:And so that's a bit of an inside out way of looking at the way we choose things, but we have agreed upon this contract. But then like you said, right, beyond our biological family, because of certain experiences I didn't receive in my biological family, the more I connected with people that I could receive those experiences of unconditional love, of healthy repair, of authentic belonging where I felt seen and understood, where my nervous system can finally experience the connection that I longed for in my biological family. That is my chosen family. And I wanna say on a personal note, because of the difficult week I've been having, you all have shown up for me in the most loving, gracious of ways that reflect to me what a true family unit of belonging and and compassion and unconditional love is really about. That's chosen family.
Jeffrey Aylor:And an honor. It's an honor.
Purna Devi:Thank you.
Joe Dermody:I think a chosen family is just as important or valuable as your biological family because it is something that you are actively choosing to make. Not not trying to limit your biological family at all, right, because it is super important, but this is the one that you get to, I don't wanna say consciously make because you're consciously making, I believe, biological family before as well, but this is the one that you're making in this journey. So it is very important. I I agree with everything that that that you said as well, Perna, and everything that Jeff said as we started this question. So I don't have a whole lot to add to this one.
Joe Dermody:I guess it's just it it is just very important to me. I have some very people some very close people in my chosen family, as you all know, and it's not something that I make lightly. So it it means a lot. Just means a lot.
Jeffrey Aylor:Who know you are loved.
Joe Dermody:Yeah. And and chosen family, you are all loved just as much back. Just leave it leave it there.
Sherri Keys:Wow. I don't think I've been so toned up. I just want to tell you guys this has been like a oh my gosh. I gotta get myself together here. Well, you know, I you know, again, we're going back to Jeff's comment.
Sherri Keys:I mean, we somewhere in the multiple lives we have, we've made a contract to come into this world where we are, who we're with, who we meet out with, think is all chosen before we even, you know, in the beginning of time as we're onto whatever version of life that we've made a contract with God, with all the people that engage or you interact with in your life are not there by chance as part of the journey, part of the contract, as part of you being able to leverage the chains that you don't want to break, because they allow other generations beyond you to become much stronger and much more loving. And to be able to carry on the traditions that are very important that I think forms life and people. And then there are some chains that need to be broken that we learn not only within the immediate family that so happened by chance, you can't divorce your immediate family, right? That contract is there for you to learn and you're going continue to engage in that space until you get the lesson, which I think happens in life in general. When you don't get what it is that you're supposed to be received, you're just gonna we talk about this all the time, you're just gonna keep being in that traffic.
Sherri Keys:And so I think that happens, You know, your intermediate family is by is by for sure, not by chance, it's by design. And your extended family is there by design as well as something that was already agreed upon. You're going to get enriched in your life in so many different ways, both in good and then sometimes just in lessons. Sometimes people are presented to us for seasons for us to gain more wisdom and knowledge. So I think, you know, as I continue on my journey in this, you know, I wanna embrace the areas where I need, I feel like it's important for me to keep that chain.
Sherri Keys:And I want to influence in areas where it's important that that change is broken. And I want to do all that by providing an understanding of unconditional love and what that means to me. And that ultimately giving grace to people is how I get through that process and to myself, providing grace for myself as well. And I'm running out of tissue guys. I'm just like letting you know.
Jeffrey Aylor:You and I talk all the time, Sherry, about how you know we It's not chance. It's not by chance that we've come together. That we're that our lives have intertwined, we do come in the right time and in the right season. The universe's timing is perfect. It's perfect.
Jeffrey Aylor:It's hard. It's hard for those of us that always want to be in control of everything and plan everything to say that, but the fact is, is the more I realize it and the more I allow it to happen, the more I understand that the universe loves us unconditionally. It does love us unconditionally. It does want everything for us. And it will give us exactly what we think and what we ask for.
Jeffrey Aylor:Because it loves us. And sometimes those are going to create very difficult lessons for us. I do believe that many of the the relationships that we have with our chosen family outside of our natural family can also help us heal. The relationships that we're struggling with within our natural family, because it gives us again a laboratory of opportunity to look and come up with solutions that might we might not otherwise come up with. So let's kind of bring.
Jeffrey Aylor:Let's bring this home. It's easy to talk about all this in theory. Unity specifically. It's a lot harder to practice it. With people, I know one of the things that.
Jeffrey Aylor:You know, I truly believe we do create our own reality through our thoughts, through our words. But you have to recognize that the people around you are also creating reality with their thoughts and with their words, and they may be in contradiction or conflict with what you're right. And a lot of those people are your closest people or your people in your family. And I always wonder why is it that we are so willing to hurt the people? In our family that love us so much.
Jeffrey Aylor:It seems like that's those are the people we so easily will hurt because I think you and Terry, I think you touched on this a few weeks ago. A lot of that is because. We know they love us. And that they'll love us even though we've hurt them. So, you know, how do we what does unity look like in a family even if we don't have agreement all the time?
Purna Devi:It certainly doesn't mean that everyone agrees or that we're conflict free. Right? Like we were talking about earlier. And I think that it unity in family creates space for every person to belong as they are authentically without us projecting our belief in how they should show up. And it's gonna rub shoulders oftentimes with with the way I think, you know, the or the way I'm showing up.
Purna Devi:And so then, you know, Rumi said, out between the ideas of right doing and wrong doing, there is a field and I will meet you there. For me, unity is that field. Out beyond the ideas and projections and beliefs and struggles in rights and wrongs, there is a middle ground and unity exists in that middle space.
Jeffrey Aylor:Sounds like the space between. Oh,
Purna Devi:what a perfect segue. The space between. That's where we are.
Sherri Keys:That's where we are.
Purna Devi:That's where I like to live. Yeah.
Joe Dermody:I agree. It's where we all need to strive to be. Not not always easy to get there, but that's where we should always try to be.
Sherri Keys:So yeah. I mean, it's it's the space the space between. I mean, I I I think we just have to learn to give each other grace. I mean, there's no there's no We're not going to get perfection where everybody's going to come with their own perspectives and we all are. As long as we understand you know, we've gotta we understand that, that and we gotta give each other grace.
Sherri Keys:I think, it allows us to exist in a more harmonized way in that space between. So.
Jeffrey Aylor:Well, I go back to the hermetic principle of as within so without. To me, the family is the within. Within family, a lot of times what you'll see from people is a projection outward into society, into social situations that is a manifestation of what they're experiencing within. Whether it's within themselves individually or within their family unit of which they're a part. And you know, so it's telling you know, my wife is a school teacher, and she just finished her career Friday, and over thirty years of experience in dealing with children who come to school in that social environment, they in so many cases are expressing outwardly the difficulties that they're experiencing inward.
Jeffrey Aylor:She can always tell a child who has a very difficult home, very difficult situations that they deal with at home. You can't hide from that, and but it also gives her then insight into what she can do to try to work and help that child and maybe provide in some cases what they're lacking So they can then take that experience back to the family unit and hope that that might help them heal some generational wound or issue or circumstance. I mean, is the again the family is the what we call the first circle. It's the first circle. Of love.
Jeffrey Aylor:And if we can get family right and healthy, this is why I I it bothers me so much that. There is systematic attack on family. There's been a systematic attack to try to destroy the family unit. We see it not just in in in one part of our culture, but in all cultures. The family has been under attack, because if you break the family, if you can loosen and break the bond of the family, you weaken everything around it.
Jeffrey Aylor:So as we bring this conversation to a close, perhaps the family isn't about creating a perfect family. If you find a if you find a perfect family, I'm going to call you a liar. Because I don't think they exist, but perhaps it's a lot more about creating more understanding, more compassion, more space between so that we can accept one another's humanity. And family is often the very first place we learn love. Sometimes it's where we're invited to learn it again.
Jeffrey Aylor:So Perna, thank you so much Joe, Sherry, for sharing in this conversation. This has been a beautiful conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as I have goosebumps. I'm literally sitting here with goosebumps and I hope that. The people who will take the time to listen to this will have that same experience and feeling and that they will gain from it.
Jeffrey Aylor:So perhaps there's one relationship, one conversation, one act of compassion that's just waiting for you to break a chain, because healing the world can be a lot closer than we think. It really starts at home, and with that, the space between continues. As we come to a close, remember that this journey continues in many expressions. This podcast is part of a family of partner podcasts. Awakening heaven on earth, the space between heaven and earth, and living heaven on earth are three companion podcasts exploring spiritual awakening from complementary perspectives.
Jeffrey Aylor:Awakening Heaven on Earth offers the core teachings and mystical reflections on unity, love, and conscious living. The space between creates room for dialogue, reflection, and lived conversation around those teachings. Living heaven on earth focuses on basic spiritual practices that help embody these insights in daily life. Together, they form a unified journey of understanding, experience, and integration, inviting listeners to remember their connection with the divine, with one another, and with the living world. You can find all of them available on the same podcast streaming platforms wherever you listen.
Jeffrey Aylor:And if music helps carry these teachings deeper into the heart. The Unity. Awakening Heaven on Earth album is available on all major music streaming services as a musical companion to this journey. Wherever you engage through listening, reflection, conversation, or music. May it gently remind you, you are not separate.
Jeffrey Aylor:You belong to the one life, and heaven is already unfolding within you. Until next time. Walk gently, love deeply, and embody heaven on earth.