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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.891)
Hello, everyone. Hello, Tiana How are you? jeez, as my kid always likes to jeez, buy me a coke. I'm good. Is that a Jurassic Park sweatshirt?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:03.182)
Hi, how are you?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:12.448)
Yes and no. So we went to Hawaii last year and we went to where they filmed part of Jurassic Park. And so it's a Jurassic Valley, yeah, at the Kualoa Ranch.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:26.033)
of the valley. Interesting.
I didn't even know they filmed some of that in Hawaii, so there you go. Now that you say it, I can see it, but I didn't know it.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:33.9)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it was fun. It was fun. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:39.661)
Nice. I've been sick. So I'm just gonna say that up front, along with everything else. You know that expression when it rains, it pours, it really does feel that. And I wonder if it's because it's true, or it's just because once you start to feel kind of because of one thing, you start to notice like the ECH multiplies on itself, whether it's actually more or not, it just feels heavier with each new thing or something and your attention is more focused on.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:43.34)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:49.387)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:58.592)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:03.936)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:07.643)
things that are wrong. don't have, that's my, it's a working theory. But anyway, um, it could be both. Yeah. So, but anyway, I am here and I'm trying to function and what I have been doing like yesterday, because I was really feeling poor and this morning I'm feeling better, but on the mend. So I was trying to allow myself to relax. I was in my recliner again, but Hey, I'm out of it now. So we're, I'm making progress.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:11.351)
Hmm. It could be both. It could be both.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:18.048)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:35.021)
I sat in my recliner and I watched the Great British Sewing Bee, which is only available on BBC America or on BBC. The Great British Sewing Bee. Like they sew clothing. Yeah. And so it's kind of like the Great British Bake Off or the Great Pottery Throwdown. If you watch that one, which I also watch. But it's like that most Americans at least know the Great British Bake Off. And it's that same sort of they're competing, but they all love and support each other. And it has that very like
Taina Brown she/hers (01:41.302)
Spelling bee?
Taina Brown she/hers (01:46.253)
Sewing.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:05.195)
sweet, homey kind of a feeling and everything's paced. Yes, it's paced slowly. The people are nice. I love their accents. They're, you know, they're making things with their hands. And anyway, I like this one because it's sewing and you get to watch them create garments. But unlike, Project Runway, where it's all about, like they're designers and it's about the designs. This is really focused on the craft of sewing. So it is who's the best seamstress.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:07.242)
Yeah, very regulating.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:24.778)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:31.595)
That's such a British thing.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:33.411)
Right? Exactly. So it's well, even like British Bake Off, it's often not who makes the most flashy thing. It's like, which it really has to taste great, not have a soggy bottom, all of these like technical things. And so this show is very technical. I mean, they examine the seams and did you hide the zipper well? And like, is it well constructed? Matters more than is it original and creative and beautiful, which I really appreciate because I think it, I mean, I just think, you I think that's such a shift in the way Americans show up and in how
Taina Brown she/hers (02:42.997)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:55.286)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:01.995)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:03.397)
British folks seem to show up. So anyway, I've been watching that and it's making me want to so.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:05.322)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:09.141)
Do you know how to sew?
Becky Mollenkamp (03:10.647)
No, I mean, I took home back in eighth grade and right. Well, no, I think all the girls did. At least in my day, it was like all the girls basically took home back and all the boys basically took shop. Yeah. Hopefully some of that's changed by now. I don't know. But I did take that. I remember making like a pillow and like maybe a stuffed animal, maybe a shirt. I don't remember. But my mom is an excellent seamstress. And in fact, she in her retirement makes a
Taina Brown she/hers (03:13.777)
Yeah, I mean everybody did.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:22.06)
to woodworking. yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:39.195)
pretty decent little side income to supplement her pension through sewing. She does alterations, but also she like construction, constructs entire garments. She's made an altered wedding gowns, a coat. She does upholstery work. Like she's very, very talented in sewing. And so I watch her doing it and she makes it, of course, look so easy. I watched this show. They make it look so easy. So I recently went out and purchased a whole bunch of stuff at Goodwill, like skirts and
Taina Brown she/hers (03:42.986)
wow. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:49.822)
Wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:56.628)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:07.259)
drapes and just like random pieces of fabric that were inexpensive or garments that I could use for the fabric. And my mom's gonna teach me how to sew.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:11.106)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:16.413)
that's fun though, because that's something you guys can do together. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:20.569)
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm hoping it's a skill I can then maybe expand upon and she has an extra machine. So once I kind of learn, I can get a machine here. And like, you know, I think as a woman who is in a larger body and doesn't always, I can't always find clothing that I like off the shelf and certainly not as easily at thrift stores, which is where I tend to shop for a host of reasons. One, it's less expensive and two, it's less wasteful.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:28.436)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:44.478)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:45.731)
It can be hard to find clothing that fits and you feel good in. And so the idea of potentially maybe being able to make custom things that actually fit my body out of fabrics that I love, like that also sounds exciting to me, but I'm going to start with tote bags because that's easier.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:48.318)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:54.003)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or at least at the very least, like, amend garments that you might find in the store. Because I feel like that's the big thing when you're like, in a not quote unquote, normal size body. It's like you can find something that you like and in some places it fits and in others it doesn't. And so it might have to be tailored. And so, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:23.013)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm excited about that. that is my latest. I haven't started. But just even the thought of a creative project gets me really excited more than I actually think the thought of the creative project and like dreaming about the creative project and all of that in some ways is more exciting to me than the actual creative, like the project itself, like the doing of it.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:33.799)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:45.669)
Yeah, it's the anticipation.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:47.759)
Yeah, like there's more in the like the dreaming of what it will be like and what I might create and all of that in some ways feels more exciting than actually sitting down to do the thing because I could have already done this. My mom's I've had weeks already that I could have gone over there and I haven't yet. So clearly I'm more excited about the thought and like the shopping of the fabrics and the dreaming up. Like I've been searching for patterns online. Like all of that part of it gets me really excited. Yeah. I don't know. What do you how do you feel about creative? Like do you have creative outlets or do you dream about creative outlets?
Taina Brown she/hers (05:50.942)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:55.562)
to do it, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:04.605)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:10.089)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:17.597)
I do, I do. In my mind, I'm a really talented artist, but not in reality.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:23.995)
And you know, is that maybe why I don't want to start? Because in my mind right now, I am making the most incredible bags. When I sit down to do it, I'm not so sure it's going to happen. So is it better like where we just imagine ourselves being this talented and don't actually have to put our like money where our mouths are?
Taina Brown she/hers (06:35.303)
Yeah.
Yeah. So in your mind, you're a handbag designer? Is that what you're saying?
Becky Mollenkamp (06:41.713)
God, I've made the most elaborate, beautiful, like in my head, I can picture these most amazing bags. If I sit down to actually sketch them out or try to figure it out, like I got the fabrics now and then I look at it I think, I don't know what to do here. I don't even know where to start. in my, all right, but in my mind, I'm like, of course I'll make the most amazing bags.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:53.737)
How does this come together?
Taina Brown she/hers (06:59.997)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I gave up on the art dream a long time ago when I, I tried, like I tried, I took a watercolor class, not a class, but like a little like workshop once and it wasn't too bad, but I don't have the patience to like pick up like art or an instrument or something like that, that, cause I also love music and I'm like,
At one point I was like, maybe I'll learn how to play the guitar or play the bass. And I just don't have the patience to do something that I'm not almost immediately good at.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:40.741)
same z's and my son is like that and it's frustrating it's part of the reason I also want to do this because I watch my son show up exactly how I haven't have in life which is if I can't figure it out and be amazing right away then what's the point which I know is rooted in white supremacy and like I don't want to show up that way and yet I think it's so ingrained in so many of us I played in fourth third wait fifth grade trumpet sixth grade flute wait wait piano was before that so I played piano in like second and third grade I played trumpet in fourth
I played flute in sixth grade. played guitar briefly in like seventh, eighth grade. Then again, as an adult, I tried to start piano again and took piano lessons as an adult, quit that, took guitar lessons again as adult, quit that. And now I've bought a weighted piano keyboard again and have started and stopped learning twice already.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:30.953)
That's hilarious. And that you don't want to do it anymore, Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:33.083)
As I start and then I'm not great. And then it's just like, I don't, it's so, which is probably the same thing with the sewing. We're like in my head right now, I'm amazing at it. And as soon as I start, I won't be because you can't be when you first start something, which is why I my son all the time. I'm like, it practices what makes progress. You have to, but I also like there's hard because I started to get where my kids coming from. Cause I'm like, yeah. How do you deal with that? Cause I do want a creative outlet.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:44.824)
Yeah, because you don't know it. You don't know it. Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:55.92)
It's ego death.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:02.619)
And yet I struggle to actually give myself one because it's so hard. I sat on here before I was gonna take up rock painting, right? Cause my mind was like, I'll never sell my rocks. That's not a big deal. And I have made rocks. Well, in my head, that was it. But then I sit down and do it. And every time I'm like, these suck. This isn't good. I could have done better. And then this thing that like, before I start, I think this is gonna be amazing. These are gonna look so good. I can't wait. Like, ooh, this is gonna be wonderful.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:02.748)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:10.216)
That's right!
And it doesn't even have to be good, it fucking rocks.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:28.134)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:31.279)
Then I get done and I think, a piece of shit, you suck, why bother? You know, like, I hate that, I don't know how to stop it.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:34.438)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I think we have to rethink what outcome we're looking for, right? Like we're not, like, if we're looking to excel at something, then that something should be something that you pick up, that I'm saying something a lot, but just bear with me here. If you're looking to excel at a specific...
then that skill should be something that is so values aligned that the effort makes it worth it. If it's just for the sake of having something creative to do, then I think at that point, we have to redefine what success looks like, right? Like it has to be, I'm not doing this to have good art, I'm doing this to be artistic.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:36.219)
to art, whether it's...
Taina Brown she/hers (10:37.138)
To create, yeah. So it has to be about the process, not about the output, you know? And I think that's one way to kind of suffer through that ego death without it becoming a roadblock to that creative outlet. so, with, cause I took a piano class in college. I played saxophone in like fourth grade. I never practiced. Right, right.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:03.259)
And then we wonder why we don't turn into virtuoso.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:06.67)
So like there are a lot of things where I'm like, that looks like fun. And then I try it and I'm just like, I don't really want to do it. It's harder than I thought it was going to be. And it's not worth it to me. But a couple of things that have been worth it to me because it's like really values aligned for me is making my own bread and gardening.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:26.927)
What does that mean? What is it about the values alignment in those things? Just, I'm curious, like versus maybe creating fine art.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:31.619)
Yeah
Yeah, I think when it comes to like gardening and bread making and even like floral arranging, so like these flowers back here on this bookcase, like Mellow got those for me over the weekend and they were already arranged, but I rearranged them in a vase because I like doing that. I'm an amateur florist, but
But what makes it values aligned for me is like when it comes to gardening and like flower arranging, those are things that are like beautiful to me and beauty is one of my top core values, right? So participating or engaging and creating something that has, that is beautiful in and of itself, regardless of how I rearrange it. Like those flowers are gonna look pretty, regardless of how I put them together.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:23.641)
That's the difference. Right. That's the difference in you creating fine art. That's starting with a blank slate that isn't pretty on its own. It's up to you to make it pretty with gardening, floral arranging. Those things are pretty. You're just making them prettier.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:31.524)
Right, right. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And then with bread making and cooking and baking and things like that, I considered those creative outlets as well. Baking, think, and bread making is very technical. You have to be incredibly precise. But you're creating something, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And for me, that is just how I, feeding people is how I really.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:45.627)
For sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:50.459)
But you're creating something. You're taking... You're making bread out of not bread.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:06.391)
show like it's a love language for me like that's how I grew up my grandmother was like always trying to feed people like I grew up helping her in the kitchen and so I love hosting I love you know making meals for people and doing dinner parties or brunches or you know having people out to like grill on a nice day you know so like those things the effort for that makes it worth it for me so whereas like mellow my wife like she loves food
The same, like she's a foodie just like me, but like she hates the process of cooking, right? Because that's not something that is necessarily completely values aligned for her. Like she'll do it if she needs to, but she hates following a recipe. She hates like the prep work, like the chopping of the vegetables and onions and stuff, the cleaning up, like all of that. I mean, I hate the cleaning up too. Like that's, yeah, but.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:01.945)
doesn't.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:03.94)
But yeah, those are creative outlets. I think one thing that I have been thinking lately is like, want to learn a new language this year. Like, I feel like I haven't, it is, it is, I feel like I haven't really learned anything. Like I've learned things for like my coaching practice and know, facilitation work, but I feel like I haven't like learned something that feels academic.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:11.141)
Mmm. It's so hard as an adult.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:32.526)
If that makes sense or that feels like sitting in a classroom in a long time. Yeah, yeah, it feels more tangible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's something I've been thinking about and I'm just like, should I like sign up for classes at the community college? Should I like see if there's like a local person that teaches classes like on the weekends or whatever? so, but I'm like.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:36.549)
feels more intellectual for lack of a better word, but like brain based instead of hand based.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:00.859)
Well, because you could use Babel or Duolingo or one of those and do it alone, but that won't work. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:06.926)
tried and after like a few weeks I just forget about it so like I need the structure of like like of a class or a workshop and so but then there's also the side of me that's like okay but if I start this am I am I gonna like quit or am I gonna give up a few weeks in because I'm gonna lose interest
Becky Mollenkamp (15:29.081)
This is like the practical part of our brains, feel like, because that's part of what holds me back to like, I'll have these ideas about creative expression. And one, I hear my dad's voice from when I was a kid with guitar saying, like, I think I had asked them to either buy me a guitar or give me his guitar or something. And I remember like, I'm not, I'm not going to do that because you just quit everything. Right. And like, you know, how parents like they, even when it was, I mean, it was true. I was, I did start and stop a lot of things. So it's not like it was.
hurtful, like intentionally hurtful or anything like that. But I remember taking that in as an like a this is true about me statement. Like I am a quitter, right? Rather than it being I have quit things. It was like, I am a quitter, right? And that's that tamey kind of part of it. And now I can still feel that whenever I endeavor on something where it's like, now my practical grownup brain is like, well, you're probably not going to stick with it anyway. It's going to cost blah, blah, blah to start. And is it worth the investment? And you know, you only have so much time and
Taina Brown she/hers (15:59.072)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:08.205)
Yeah, that's an identity. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:16.27)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:23.053)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:26.691)
Maybe the time you have, the free time you have should be spent on making more money or whatever. All of those sorts of thoughts, I think for a lot of adults, keep us from giving ourselves that freedom to play and express that we need, but we lose as we get older.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:32.964)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:40.288)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, 100%. I was just on, I just recorded an episode on Kim Romaine's podcast. Yeah, yeah, it'll, it'll come out in like later this summer. But we, talked about that, about like the power of play. And I think, I think, you know, as an adult, you do have to balance the rationality of like where you spend your energy and your money, because those are real things, because we have a lot of commitments.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:50.904)
Yeah, it's empowered embodied show for anybody who's curious.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:13.464)
We live in an attention economy and so we have to be strategic about what we do with those things.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:17.221)
And they're also, they're more real depending, you know, real depending on your privilege too, obviously, right? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:23.192)
Right, right, right. But at the same time, I think we venture too far into that and we lose the experimental side of living. And so I think as a child, it's OK for children to start something and stop it because they're learning about their interest. And when we become adults, we stop doing that.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:36.283)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:45.712)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:49.985)
We stop learning about what interests us and what excites us. And we assume that what we're doing every day are the things that interests us and excite us. Or we just don't prioritize it anymore.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:03.449)
Or like we think of these things as like almost like finite, like you reach a certain place and by then you're supposed to know all the things. And then those are the things you do forever. And it's like, why start something new? Because, and especially if it's something you've already done, like in the case of playing piano or maybe trying to learn a language before and stopping, it's like, well, you already tried that, you didn't like it. Well, that me didn't like it, but nine-year-old me or even 29-year-old me isn't me now.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:09.762)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:17.644)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:31.331)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:31.447)
and why we can't give ourselves permission to say, I'm a different me and maybe now I will like it and then, and maybe I won't. And can that be okay? Because like with my child, he's nine, I'm like, I want him to try everything. No, we're like, try this sport, try that sport, try this activity, try, like I, I'm excited when he wants to try something new. And in fact, I get more worried when he says he doesn't want to try something he hasn't tried before. Because like, you don't know if you'll like it unless you've tried it. And I encourage that. And when he quits, I don't see it as a sign of like quitting.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:35.149)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:38.84)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:44.067)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:53.963)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:00.155)
I mean, we always make him finish his responsibilities or obligations, commitments. Like if he committed to a season on a team, then he's going to finish out that season. But if he says, I don't want to play that sport again next season, I don't think, oh, you're a failure. Oh, you're a quitter. think, okay, you've learned that that's not the thing you want. And you want to try this other thing or you want to invest more time in these things. And somewhere along the way we, yeah, we lose it for ourselves. And that's really sad because why, what is it that we think has changed that now suddenly
Taina Brown she/hers (19:03.03)
Yeah, yeah.
that you're gonna finish up the season, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:13.101)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:16.898)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:20.759)
We lose that.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:28.023)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:29.595)
anything we do, we attempt and don't stick with indicates failure in some way. And I'd say this is somebody who does this to myself. Right. So this is not the proverbial we or them. It's me. Like, I don't know what that is. Yeah, it's so interesting and it's so easy to say redefine success. And I work with clients on that all the time. And it's really hard. It's really hard to do to get rid of that brainwashing that says you have to be perfect at something. You have to get it right away. You have to be the best.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:34.063)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:41.268)
It's literally us, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:47.842)
Mm-hmm. It is hard.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:54.039)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:59.075)
When you sit down to do something new as an adult where you think, well, if I had started this when I was nine, I'd be amazing at it by now. like, you know, why bother? Because I'll never be able to do it as well as all these other people who've been doing it for 30 years. Who cares? And like learning how to enjoy the process is hard for me.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:06.547)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:11.809)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, me too, me too. Cause I wanted to just be good right off the bat. I think, right, right. Because, because productivity, right? Because of things like productivity and like our worth and our identity being tied to how well we can do things and how efficiently we can do things and how much we can do things.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:25.359)
Yeah, and focusing on the end result.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:37.529)
Yeah. And how do others value those things? Could we sell the thing? Like I talk with clients all the time too, who are creatives and find themselves stifled in their creativity because it gets this place as adults where it's almost like, if I can't sell the thing, if I can't make money off the thing, then does that thing have any value to it? Right? And learning how to, the process is the value or that expression is the value. But that's hard in capitalism.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:42.183)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:57.419)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:03.922)
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is. I've had people tell me, have you ever thought about opening a restaurant or a bakery? And I'm like, that I'm I'm not gonna lie, I have thought about it, but I don't want to because then it's not a creative outlet for me anymore. Now it's tied to this monetary value. And that's a recipe for disaster for me. No pun intended, but.
But yeah, no, and I think that ability to just be experimental and curious about different things, when you lose that, I think that is part of this whole epidemic of people being shut off to just new ideas about how to just live life. When you see people digging in their heels about what it means to be a human, what it means to be a woman, or what it means to be a man, it's like...
It's because you haven't fucking learned anything. You're not curious about someone else's experience anymore. You're just set in your own ways. I think when we say things like everything is connected, this is one of the ways that shows up where everything is connected. It's because without that curiosity, without that sense of just experimentation,
It's just such a small minded way. and like you said, this is hard for us. Like this is something that obviously we're talking about it because we're both experiencing it. Right. And so I think everyone experiences this on some level or another. And I just want, I don't want to say I want to get to the point because I don't think there is a point. I think this is because we're constantly pushing up against the boundaries of toxic productivity and toxic capitalism.
It's a constant struggle. It's going to be a constant struggle to resist that and instead operate from a place of curiosity and experimentation. Like that's never going to go away. And I think realizing that helps us to have grace for ourselves too, whenever we're like feeling like shit because we don't want to suffer that ego death. Right?
Becky Mollenkamp (23:24.647)
Mm hmm. Well, and I also think there's this separate from all of those things, which are all true and wound up in why I haven't started sewing yet or, you know, why I'm not painting my rocks as much as I could is I think there's this also this thing that we do often, especially I think those with more marginalized identities because we have more often more financial pressures placed on us where it is this delayed gratification of like, I'll do that when like we have to
Taina Brown she/hers (23:48.135)
No, no.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:50.753)
earn our creative expression in the same way to earn our rest or earn our pleasure. It's like I have to earn the time to do that thing. And it's like, well, once I'm making X amount of money, then I'll have more time to do those things or, whatever the thing looks like for people. Because I find that with myself, I'm like, I, it feels like this is a use of time. And it's like, have I really earned that time, right? When bills that need to be paid, this guilt of like, I need to be spending the time trying to figure out how to pay those bills when in fact,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:51.805)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:02.591)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:13.598)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:19.941)
Like I'm watching the British sewing bee. That's time I could, because I'm not feeling well or because like those, the weight of that pressure gets to me and I feel sort of stagnant. And it's like, I actually think that the creative outlet is the kind of thing that can then fuel you to see new opportunities inside your work. Think of different ways to make money, not necessarily through the sewing, but just that creative energy. brings energy back into you to want to work. And it's like, I need to stop doing that delayed.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:29.318)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:36.968)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:43.038)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:47.471)
like earning my rewards thing and saying, I'm allowed to and need to create that time for this activity, not just when XYZ happens.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:48.862)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:57.566)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's neuroscience to back that up, right? Like when you're learning something new, you're creating new neural pathways in your brain, which then makes it easier for you to see possibility and innovate and also makes it easier for you to learn in the future, right? Like it's like this snowball kind of effect or this like domino effect. And so I think, you there's, you can't.
You can't innovate. can't think outside of the box. Like as a business owner, right? I'm talking right now. Like you can't really like set yourself apart as a business owner unless you have time for creativity for that, that just kind of experimental phase of just like whether it's focused on your business or just hobbies, right? Just giving yourself the time to just do something for the sake of doing it, not for the sake of any kind of output.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:56.155)
Yeah, I'm thinking that one of the things that helps me, just like you said, taking a class can help you because there's some structure and this like sort of external expectations of accountability. Like you're going to show up to the class and whatever you're they'll check in, check you in. Like that piece can help you do it. And I'm thinking like, I think one of the things that helps me is not doing things alone because when it's just me and it's similar to what you're talking about, but like when it's just me doing it, it's easy for me to let it go. But like,
Taina Brown she/hers (26:09.502)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:25.473)
If and my mom is not doesn't count because it's also easy to tell her no. But if it was like part of a friend's like a social outing and people were expecting me to show up and, know, and then it's also like fun and not just about the result of the thing I create, but more about like the experience that I think that would help. So I'm like, I should look and see if there's like sewing circles or something. I'm sure there are maybe not people my age, but you never know. I shouldn't presume that. And also, I'm not that young anymore anyway.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:30.419)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:42.527)
The connection, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:47.783)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. But even if it's not people your age, it could still be a pleasant experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:55.387)
you
Right? That reminder that there's value and wisdom in at all ages. As I'm sitting here reading a piece about the double standard of aging by Susan Sontag from the Assigned Reading podcast, I'm very much thinking about aging right now. And yeah, like the way we discount that wisdom that those my older friends can bring to and not just young friends. But anyway, that's what I'm thinking. Maybe I need to find a way to.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:07.102)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:12.136)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:18.259)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:23.589)
to have the creativity connected to, like you were saying, your values. For me, community is such a big value that maybe, and honestly, even if it was virtual, even if there's just a group of us that I find who want to sew, but we're doing it on Zoom and there's a little bit of discussion or, you know, like when you fuck up, say, shit, I just fucked up that seam or, hey, do you guys know how to fix a zipper or whatever you have plenty there? But it also makes it fun. So I think that might help me. You want to sign up for a class. That's a good way to do it.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:28.637)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:32.637)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:43.069)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:50.11)
Yeah, yeah, I need to, I think I'm going to do French because I started French actually in college. I took one semester and I actually did really well, but I was going to school full time and working full time. And after that one semester, I was like, I just don't have the capacity to study for this the way that I need to in order to get a decent grade. So then I switched over to Spanish.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:55.099)
Ooh la la.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:19.647)
because I figured that would be easier. actually wasn't. Yeah. Yeah. mean, it. Yeah, it was it wasn't easier, not necessarily because I was learning Spanish because I grew up with native Spanish speakers, but it was because when you grow up in a native Spanish speaking environment, that's very different from learning it in an academic setting.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:22.715)
They're pretty much on par. mean, they're all romance languages. They're very similar. So yeah, it's necessarily easier or not.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:46.351)
sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:46.398)
because there were a lot of technicalities and rules. So I mean, it was because I was learning Spanish. I was learning it in a different way. And that...
Becky Mollenkamp (28:52.379)
Well, that's like saying you're going to learn English from someone who's, you know, Southern. And I say this somebody with Southern family because Southern, the Southern sort of American English is far more, I say lazy, but I don't mean that in a way that Southern's are lazy. Just like it's slower. There's a lot of like words that sort of turn into different words and it's just different pacing. It's just a different...
Taina Brown she/hers (28:58.45)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:09.424)
It's slower, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:13.702)
Yeah, there's a lot of different dialects in the South. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:16.889)
Yeah, and there's not as there's nothing wrong with it. It's just not the type of English you're you wouldn't get an A in an English class if you're using like Southern dialect.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:24.926)
Yeah, yeah. I feel like in a way the Spanish was harder because then it was like going against what I already knew. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, because I ended up, I think I got an A in French and I ended up with like, I did two semesters of Spanish and I got like a B minus and a C. So.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:32.827)
You're almost having to unlearn. You're unlearning and relearning, which is harder than just learning the way they want you to learn. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:48.729)
Yeah, I I took AP French. Like I took three years of French in high school, including AP French and got college credit. And I remember exactly un peu, a little. Like almost like, know I can say, ou est la toilette? Where's the toilet? Je m'appelle Becky. Like I can say a few things, but not enough to survive. And I certainly can't understand it. And I have thought about taking French too. And I've also taken sign language, a semester sign language as an adult at a continuing ed. And I loved that. And my kid talked about doing that with me. So that would be something that would be cool.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:57.618)
N-
Taina Brown she/hers (30:01.403)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:11.301)
Mmm!
Taina Brown she/hers (30:17.649)
fun that'd be fun to do with with g-man with g-man yeah melo yeah yeah yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (30:18.466)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:22.009)
And all I remember was sign language is my alphabet. And even there, I think I've got like three letters I can't quite remember. I have, I'm like that Jane of all trades, master of none, where I've done a little of everything. And I think there's also nothing wrong with that, right? Like some of it is, it's instead of looking at it as failures, it's like, it's dabbling. It's, it's, you know, scratching an itch, getting curiosity met. And does it have, do we have to be the best at everything or even?
Taina Brown she/hers (30:34.065)
Yeah. There isn't.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:40.688)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:47.451)
No, no.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:48.303)
Good at everything, right? Like you don't have to master a skill or even be great at a skill. If it's just enough for you, like for me, I learned the sign language alphabet. I can still use that if I really had to. I would love to learn more and maybe at some point I will, but I also don't see it as a failure. It was an interesting, I did it at the time with my ex-husband. It was an opportunity for us to spend time together. It was an opportunity for me to meet new people. You know, I felt like I was doing something really interesting. Like how is that a waste of time? It's the same way that we look at divorce as a failure often. And it's like,
Taina Brown she/hers (30:51.665)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:59.741)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:07.079)
Good night.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:10.705)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. No. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:17.315)
Maybe it was a successful marriage that just came to its end. And can you not just say, appreciate the decade or however much time it was in my case, a decade of marriage. Can I just say that like there was a decade in there that was not bad. And can I say that that's okay and that it ended, you the same way we don't like beat up a book for, know, in fact, think if a book went on forever and ever, you would hate it, right? Yeah. And so think it can be the same thing with creativity and learning and.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:23.067)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:30.213)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:36.067)
ending yeah yeah yeah yeah
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:43.845)
Can it not just be for that moment and appreciate it for what it was in that moment instead of feeling like it has to be like I'm doing it so that I now can speak French fluently? What if you never speak French fluently, but you have an interesting time learning some and meeting people?
Taina Brown she/hers (31:52.027)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, meeting people. Yeah, yeah, for sure. we've been to Paris a couple times and I'm just going to brag because even with just the one semester of French, like I feel like I still retained enough to like get around and there were several times where French people were complimenting me on my accent and thought I was French.
because of how they was talking and I was like, that never happens to Americans.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:25.679)
Very good. Prebient.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:31.653)
Well, and it's also enough for you to probably for another value to be able to show that you care enough about others cultures to try. And that's often enough for people to appreciate it too. even if you don't like that, and that can be what it can be. Like I just want to take enough of a language that if I go to the country that speaks that language, I can at least show that I cared enough to try that I'm making you a pen. Yeah. No one's going to be, well, I shouldn't say no one, but I doubt there's anyone who's fluent in every language in the world. Like that's pretty hefty.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:38.799)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:51.012)
Yeah, that you respect the culture. Yeah, for sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:00.593)
That would be hard.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:01.851)
It's gonna be very hard. And so it's not that you have to do it. Like it can just be, I'm interested in whatever the thing is. Like if I sew and I only ever learned how to make a tote bag, which is a very real possibility. Okay. Could that not be enough? Like I can make a kick ass tote bag. Don't ask me to make a dress, but I can make, and like, can I be okay with that? You know, do I have to be able to be the best at everything? The answer right now feels like yes, but I really want to keep, you know, pushing myself to say no. So I'm saying this, like it sounds like a
Taina Brown she/hers (33:13.468)
That's it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:20.838)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:25.892)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:30.339)
I'm preaching to everyone else, but I'm preaching to me. More? Sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:32.006)
Preaching to myself, yeah, we're preaching to ourselves here for sure, for sure. I was like that when I started sourdough during the pandemic, well, during lockdown. And I was like trying to perfect it, trying to perfect it, trying to perfect it. And I could never get the dough right before baking. I could never get it tight enough to like...
score it properly so that it looks like it would look like in a bakery. And after a few tries I was like, fuck it. It tastes good. It looks good. It bakes fine. Whatever. It doesn't matter what it looks like. It doesn't matter if it's like tight enough or whatever. Like it'll be okay because that's my point.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:11.811)
And it also, it also scratched the niche during pandemic or during lockdown time of like, need something else to put my attention to. I need something that I feel like I'm creating something. And like, even if it didn't taste okay, like the fact that you had a place to put your attention, that you had something to do with your hands, something that gave you an activity besides just staring at Netflix. Like all of those things are also like valuable. I'm going to paint a rock today.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:18.468)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:24.282)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:28.559)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:32.271)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think some of these practices or creative outlets, we can also look at them as somatic experiences, right? We spend so much time in our heads that we forget to be in our bodies. And I say this as someone, I was literally thinking about this a couple of days ago, I say this as someone with a chronic illness.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:47.483)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:59.675)
who I don't like being in my body because I don't trust my body. Like, I never know how it's gonna feel. I never know how it's gonna treat me. so doing something that is very somatic feels unsafe to me most of the time. And so I have to get through that mindset block. But it's important to do somatic things to...
to have experiences where you are in your body, whether it's gardening or making bread or learning how to sew, right? Those are things where you're using your body in a new way to help you get out of your head and have a somatic experience so that way you can like really feel how you're feeling in that moment and help you be present. And I think we lose a lot of that. We'll be.
deprioritize creative outlets, whether it's guitar or bread making or floristry or whatever the case may be.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:55.397)
Well, yeah, the piece about presence I think is so important. I think that's what it is about creativity is it is out of your head. You have to be focused. If you're not paying attention to the stitches, could totally mess it up. Get your finger. Same thing with any of these projects, right? Like if you're not present in the moment of the thing you're doing with your hands or whatever part of your body you're using, it can mess up. And so it's forcing us to get out of our heads and do that. And the part you just said about not trusting your body, I just want to point out and.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:05.69)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:13.615)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:21.657)
I fully understand that where you're coming from, and I think for people who live with disabilities or with chronic illnesses or neurodivergence, whatever it is, there's often that, like obviously this place where we start to distrust our bodies, right? But I also think that's just true for most people. And I think especially folks who are women or women identified because we are made to not trust our bodies, at an early age. Not only are our bodies often the source of a lot of trauma,
Taina Brown she/hers (36:33.691)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:42.959)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:48.197)
from very young ages, both physical and other types of trauma, just even verbal trauma. We are turned into objects. We are made to not trust ourselves. People gaslighting us about our own embodied experiences. Like this is just such a common thing for people, and especially, think, women identified people, that we just, we start to not only not trust our bodies, but often even resent our bodies. They become the source of resentment. I know I have felt that. Like when I first started to try and get embodied at nearly 40, I was like,
Taina Brown she/hers (36:48.613)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:56.505)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:10.295)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:17.807)
I don't even, I don't know. Like I live slow in my head. I didn't like my body. I was angry with my body. I resented my body because I had been made to really feel that way about my body on so many levels. And I think you're right that we need places that allow us this more gentle, hopefully loving, hopefully way of experiencing our bodies in new ways that are not just about our bodies as objects, not just about our bodies as sources of shame and all of that, but instead like,
Taina Brown she/hers (37:19.471)
How? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:28.975)
You
Taina Brown she/hers (37:46.692)
or sources of productivity.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:48.543)
Right. But like our body is this beautiful thing that can help us do something that can help us like get into a feeling that we want that can help us be present. Like those are like our body is the source of such beauty. But we've been made to feel so poorly about our bodies. I agree. Like I think a lot of times that's what the create what creativity is most needs to be about. And then when we make it about the final product, we're again, I am going back to me because I keep acting like I'm so superior here because I'm not.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:58.095)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:03.652)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:15.501)
When I make it about the final product and sort of the process being this like thing I just have to get through, I'm sort of missing the point.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:22.072)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. we, you know, we can't experience like true liberation until we have those embodied experiences. Like it's and it's not about not being in your head. It's about. Like having an equilibrium between when it's time to be in your head and when it's time to be in your body, right? By being so attuned to yourself as a whole person. But you can't do that unless.
you have embodied experiences. so, and the like, if you're not used to that, it feels really uncomfortable. Like I remember the first time I sat down with like a somatic therapist, and I was just like, this is weird. I'm uncomfortable. I don't like this, right? And I didn't stick with that therapist for a long time, but I stuck with it for like a specific period of time because I was like, I need to practice. Like I need to like.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:57.563)
for sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:18.361)
practice moving past that mental block that I had. so sitting down with her and like doing all these like embodied exercises and stuff was just like, it was so uncomfortable. But at the end of that experience, I felt like I, the resistance to have those embodied experiences was like slowly wearing down.
and I started to become a little bit more comfortable and a little bit more comfortable and a little bit more comfortable. And so we live in bodies, like we fucking live in bodies. You can't just get free in your head. Your body has to be free as well. And you can't do that without embodiment, without some kind of somatic experience.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:02.713)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:06.799)
Right, think somatics and creativity is a part of that, is a reclamation of the body. A reclamation of saying this body is mine and I am not going to resent it, but I'm going to love it. And that's really beautiful and important, right? And it's hard to find ways to do that. I think, like you said, there's other somatic experiences, but I do think creative expression is certainly one of those ways that we can reclaim the body. And that is an act of liberation.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:11.798)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:32.822)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:34.575)
before, because I not to switch topics, because I actually think this is aligned. But as we talk about creativity, I know that so much of what we said is about the ways that capitalism has perverted our experience with creativity. And and I think both of these things can be true. And I do find a lot of creative outlet inside of my work. I'm lucky and privileged in the way that I'm able to do that. Not everyone can. I know that. But I do find like podcasting. And now I'm doing three of them.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:39.798)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:52.599)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:00.741)
feels super creative for me and I love it. Creating graphics in Canva, it's a silly thing, but it feels super creative to me. Like there are things that I get to do inside of my work that do scratch some of that itch for me. And even in ways sometimes that are detached from money, like we're not making money on this podcast. I'm not making money on assigned reading. Like these are, it's really about that creative expression. Now it's a more, again, brain-based, head-based sort of creative expression, but still it's giving me some of that. And so I do think we have to be careful about
Taina Brown she/hers (41:11.361)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:16.107)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:20.577)
and then
Taina Brown she/hers (41:26.848)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:30.275)
our creativity becoming too much, too wrapped up into toxic capitalism. And I do think it's also valuable when you can to find creative expression inside your work.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:39.472)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Again, it's not a either or, right? It's a both and. Like it's a both and. Yeah, it's that equilibrium. And so it's, we're not going from one extreme to another. It's about, you know, figuring out how these things can work together for you. Right. And that's going to look different for everybody. Like the way that you find that equilibrium is going to be different from the way that I find the equilibrium, because our needs are different.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:44.313)
Right. It's at equilibrium.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:08.448)
And so I'm really happy with where this conversation went.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:15.129)
Yeah. Well, because the other thing I wanted to mention is this podcast. Well, it wasn't some like we I really felt like we started this strictly as I just think it would be fun. Do you want to do it? Let's I love having conversations with you. Let's let's turn them into a podcast, because that would be a fun way of doing this and sort of that piece of if we're expecting each other to show up every week to record, then we know we're going to do it right. So there was that accountability baked in by having turning it into a podcast because it wasn't about money. wasn't about monetization.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:24.608)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:35.852)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:43.404)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:44.645)
for the most part, we've avoided a lot of the productivity pressures of like, we got to have a show out. I mean, we have been able to consistently get shows out every week, but there's been a few times where we bank some so we could, and there's been times where we've moved around our schedule to do it. But also, I think both of us know like, if we miss a week, it's not going to be a big deal, right? But out of this, because we allowed for this space of creative expression, I do think that part we talked about, like creative expression then allows you to see new opportunities and look at things in different ways.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:48.129)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:54.157)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:11.234)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:13.241)
we've recently started this Coach's Circle, which is sort of a melding of different things. was a place, something that I had started originally as sort of more for the community, less about creativity, but more just like I scratch that community itch that I always have. And then through doing this podcast and our work together, was like, well, could that sort of come under this umbrella now? And I don't, I think it's because, you know, because we allowed ourselves this space to do this and we, and then that starts to prompt like,
Taina Brown she/hers (43:15.52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:38.939)
because originally we weren't even thinking about putting it on their messy liberation umbrella. It was just going to be its own thing. Yeah. That's just like, think that invitation to see a bigger picture, to think of things more broadly, to get a little more creative about how things show up, that is, you know, has led to that. like, I think that this Coach A Circle we're doing feels a little bit aligned with this idea of creativity and where it can let you end up if you allow yourself to just say, let's just explore it and see.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:43.624)
It's own thing,
Taina Brown she/hers (43:48.725)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:02.612)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:06.203)
without it having to be a certain thing. Because we didn't start this thinking, we'll do this podcast and then we'll have this, like, no, there's none of that. It's just like, we want to do it because it was fun. And then it led to this. So I think that that is a good example of what it can look like.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:06.303)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:10.966)
and then we'll do a co-chair circle and then we'll do this. yeah, yeah, it's just kind of emerged.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:19.966)
Yeah, yeah. And even within the coaches circle, like we're trying to be super creative about how that functions, right? So we're constantly throwing ideas back and forth, getting feedback from the members that are already in there about what they want to see and what they want to experience. And I'm excited because I feel like this is right now it's really small and that allows us to
Becky Mollenkamp (44:45.531)
We said we'd give updates and we have seven members and then us. So there's nine of us all together, which is not far off from like we had kind of put a hope of 10 or so to get us through the summer of this beta testing. Fell a little short of that, but honestly, I feel pretty good about where we're at for just a starting place without a ton of promotion or anything.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:48.842)
We have seven members and that's yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:54.932)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:00.352)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:04.894)
Yeah, yeah, I do too. I do too. And I think I was just talking to Nicole about this yesterday, actually, actually, during co-working for the Coaches Circle. Nicole is one of our members in the Coaches Circle. Shout out to Nicole. She is also one of our listeners. Yeah. And she's she's great. I love being in community with her. But we were just talking about how like this principle of like, if you're going to start something, start small.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:16.731)
Hi, Nicole.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:20.283)
I think she's also one of our listeners, so yay.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:34.858)
Right? Because that gives you the space to experiment and to co-create and to try different things. so, and that doesn't mean that it can't grow or can't get bigger, but like start small so you can like really hone in on like what the experience should feel like and what people should get out of it. that way, so you can tap into that creativity. It's harder to experiment when something is huge. Right?
And so there are obviously ways to do it, right? From like a business operational standpoint, there are obviously ways to do that, but it's easier. It's less creative and it takes more, yes, it takes more effort to be creative on the big scale.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:04.559)
Yeah, because again... Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:11.771)
But it's less creative. It's less malleable.
Right. But it goes against so much of that conditioning we have of needing things to be perfect, all figured out because we see this all the time. I know you with both of our clients where people are, they don't take action. They get sort of stagnant or immobilized because of that. Like I don't have it all figured out. I don't want to launch it imperfectly. I don't want people to see this like in process piece. What if it doesn't look as good? The branding is not perfect. All these things stop people from taking action. And the amount of time they waste, not waste, but the amount of time they spend in that cycle.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:22.665)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:35.124)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:47.159)
often if they had just started by the time they actually launched, they would have been the same place anyway, but they would have been taping that to action that whole time instead of worrying. And that is a very different place to be. The other thing we didn't talk about though, and I think is important based on what you were saying too about how we're doing the circle is co-creation. Cause so much of what we've talked about here is creativity is like a singular expression, an individual experience other than maybe doing it with a community. But there's also something so powerful about co-creation of like, would it look like if I sewed a part of a tote
Taina Brown she/hers (46:51.721)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:03.25)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:16.463)
mailed it to you and then you added your own fabrics and then you did something with it, right? Like that can be, what an exciting way to, I also think to then minimize the pressure you put on yourself because it's not just you. And so we're doing that inside of the circle and we do that a lot, I think in our businesses of like, what does this look like for me to say, I'm gonna invite other collaborators in, co-conspirators to say, let's create this together so it's not just my idea and it's not just all on me.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:18.868)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:26.438)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:34.452)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:41.054)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:41.475)
And I'm that like, honestly, my head just now is going to like, what could that look like with some of the things I'm talking about for creative expression? Because I do think it changes your relationship with the experience when it's not just you.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:46.556)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:51.644)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even as a coach, like when I, when I working with a new client, like we co-create that experience, right? Like it's not just, I have this process and you're going to go through this process and I'm going to coach you through the process. It's like, what, what do you want? Like, this is my process. How do we amend it to something that feels good to you? Right. And then that creates like a really holistic experience for the client. So that way they feel like they're getting what they need out of the experience.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:58.841)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:03.117)
Right. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:21.685)
I wanted to say, because you mentioned that thing that's saying Jack of all trades, master of none. And Jane, person of all trades, master of none.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:29.307)
I said Jane, but yeah.
What is a gender non-specific name that we could use? But yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:38.364)
Yeah, I was gonna say ex but then that made me think of Elon so never mind. But yeah, sorry. But but there's actually a second part to that quote that no one ever or hardly anyone ever says and I forgot how it goes but basically it's the idea is like even if you're a
Becky Mollenkamp (48:41.583)
You know, he's ruined it.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:51.131)
Mmm!
Becky Mollenkamp (49:00.153)
here it is, but oftentimes better than a master of one. Ooh, that's really good.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:04.191)
Yes, there it is. Yeah, it's like it's better to just dabble in and like know a bunch of different things than to just be an expert at like one thing, you know? And so sometimes that's okay, but most times...
Becky Mollenkamp (49:16.557)
I'm so glad you just told me that, Taina, because I didn't know. How many times have I said it? And it also just feels like, what a way that like toxic capitalism stuff has bastardized. That's saying to make it that shameful thing of like, it's horrible to be a jack of all trades and a master of none. Like you should want to be a master of something, but the oftentimes better than a master of one is absolutely true. Like being skilled in many areas does just because you're not a specialist doesn't mean that you aren't.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:26.706)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:32.744)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:44.079)
Like there's such beauty in that. makes you versatile. makes you, you know, somebody that many people can turn to for help. And just because you can't help them with every facet, I think it's kind of like coaching in some ways, right? Or it's just about like being a step or two ahead of other people and where you can help them. as a coach, I don't have to know how to do every single thing. I just have to have a little more knowledge maybe than someone else. And honestly, not even because it's really about asking questions, but there is that like.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:45.566)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:54.076)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:02.567)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:09.202)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:10.479)
This feeling that we have to have it all figured out before we can sell our services, before we can do that, like any of the things, like this applies to so much more than creativity. Anyway, I think that's a beautiful full quote and thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:12.487)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:16.209)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're so welcome. Because I'm just like, OK, I can master like one or two things. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't also dabble and learn other things. And I think people stop at the mastering. And then they're just like, OK, I don't need to know anything else. it's just that. Right. And it's not.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:28.783)
Yeah!
Becky Mollenkamp (50:33.819)
Well, and we think mastery is the goal, like the only acceptable goal. And it doesn't have to be. I mastery is beautiful, right? That's great too. And it doesn't have to be the goal. You can take French for one year just cause it's fun. That's it. That could be okay. All right. I needed this conversation. I'm really going to push myself to go so soon. It'll probably be next week because of a whole host of personal things going on in our lives with this weekend and stuff.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:45.799)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:54.183)
Me too.
Me too.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:01.949)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:02.043)
school activities, my dad's visiting, there was like my one of my mom's dear friends died, like we have so much going on. But next week, I think I'm going to try and so where are you at with your with language? Or is there another creative endeavor you'd like to take?
Taina Brown she/hers (51:08.717)
my gosh.
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:17.511)
Well, I need to take my sourdough starter out of the fridge so I can get back into that because I put it in the fridge since I was traveling last week. And then I did look up like summer French classes at a local community college here. So I need to figure out the financial side of that. They're online, though. I really wanted something in person. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:21.509)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:41.507)
Yeah. So maybe looking, you know, you can look at continuing ed and it's usually way less expensive than going to a real college. again, if it's not about getting the degree or earning the grade or whatever, it can be as valuable to you and much less expensive. think sometimes we also there's this like thing I just OK, I know we're almost done, but I just wrote a thing about assigned reading to my newsletter saying this idea of like I wanted to get for I have.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:47.322)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:08.603)
over and over again, looked at going to get a second master's in gender and race studies. And I've done this again and again over the years. And finally, I'm like, right. And it's like, why? Why is it that I think that it's only valid if it's through a university and I earn a degree at the end? I'm like, education, schools, valuable, and also gatekeepers. Like it is gatekeepers to knowledge. And we live in a digital age now where there doesn't need to be gatekeeping to knowledge. I can create my own.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:15.632)
Yeah, I'm trying to talk you out of it.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:22.586)
If it's in a, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:28.722)
Yeah. Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:34.608)
Yeah, yeah, girl, I will send you my textbook. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:37.787)
I can create my own degree program. And that's sort of what I'm doing with assigned reading is like, I'm picking the things I would have loved to have read in a college program and I'm reading them now and without the grades, without that stress and just like, can I just enjoy these and can that be enough? And it can be. And so like, yeah, I think there's also that reminder that we don't, doesn't, your learning French doesn't have to be through the traditional gatekeepers of French. It can be your own, whatever you want to be. My son is learning Spanish sort of by just using Google translate and looking up words and making his own little dictionary. And it's adorable.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:43.345)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:47.484)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:03.602)
You
that's so cute!
Becky Mollenkamp (53:07.579)
And he's been doing it all year and his teacher even helps him now. She'll provide him a printout once a week. He'll tell her the words he wants her to look up. At the end of the week, she gives him the list of words. Will he ever learn Spanish really that way? Probably not, but it's again at nine, it's what he wants. It's a creative endeavor. And I want to remember that. Like my learning French could look the same for me and maybe it'll never be perfect, but who cares? Could it just be because it fulfills that thing in me? So anyway, look at continuing Ed.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:16.604)
love that.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:21.882)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:28.827)
But who cares? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I will look into continuing ed and maybe not summer, but maybe fall. Yeah, because summer's like right around the corner. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:40.699)
Yeah, fine. Yeah, summers are tough time to do. Yeah, and it's also, I don't know, not always when you want to be in a classroom when it's actually still sunny in the evening instead of dark. Your flowers are beautiful for people who can't see them. It's a lovely little arrangement. And last summer I was picking flowers from the garden towards the end of the summer thinking, why wasn't I doing this all year and making little arrangements? I'm going to go outside right now. This is my commitment.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:49.37)
Yeah, yeah.
Thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:00.537)
Yeah. Go get some flowers, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:03.419)
Right now I'm gonna pick a lovely bouquet for my recording next podcast recording I have this afternoon and they will be there in that recording So if you watch the Anna Xavier recording for a side reading you guys can call me out if I don't have the flowers behind me because I'm gonna go do it now
Taina Brown she/hers (54:15.848)
I have to remember to watch that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and if you're listening and you're a coach and you're interested in joining the coaches circle, just shoot us an email, mescalibration.com. We'll more than happy to answer any questions that you have, schedule some time to talk through it.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:19.269)
So that'll be a little creative expression today. Find a way to do something creative today.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:35.669)
And if you already know you want to join, I'm going to go put it on our website because it's not and it should be. So I'll just go put a link on the website too. So you'll be able to find it on messy liberation.com. Also, if you want to go and find out how to join, because it will be there by the time this is out next.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:41.329)
Hahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (54:45.701)
Yeah. Yeah.
All right, thank you all for listening.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:51.067)
Thanks, Tiana