Moral Codes, Self-Image, and Root Beer

Greg and Adam turn to talking about the intricacies of behavioral ethics. They intensely debate social factors that impact people's ethical behaviors, moral codes, and psychopathy.

Meet Your Hosts

Greg Kyte, CPA
Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregkyte
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregkyte/

Adam Broud
Twitter: https://twitter.com/adambroud
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-broud-18870a198

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Transcript available upon request (email [e-mail]) 

Creators & Guests

Host

Adam Broud

Host

Greg Kyte, CPA

What is CENSORED Ethics?

Welcome to Ethics that doesn't suck! CPA and comedian Greg Kyte teams up with MBA and comedian Adam Broud to discuss the intricacies of behavioral ethics — sociological nudges that prime people to behave more ethically or less ethically. During their lively conversations, they draw on research from psychology and economics.

Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding!

Greg Kyte: [00:00:00] Being naked is not Ethically wrong in and of itself. Yes, but but we start going, oh, it is in certain contexts. And that's entirely based on these on these social circles that we're in. And I mean, even going back to the stuff that I remember hearing a hundred years ago, there are some some some people who live in parts of the world where it's just so tropical that they are they're naked, they're basically naked all the time. And it's just no big deal because that's the it's so hot. This is Greg's pitch for new ethics deaths next year. Every seven minutes, take a shot and remove an article. That's what it is. Hey, thanks for listening to Ethics. If you would like to earn behavioral ethics for listening to this podcast, there is now a premium course available for purchase on the earmark app. Just go to earmark.com or download the earmark app from the App store or from the Google Play store.

Greg Kyte: [00:01:05] Hello, everybody, and welcome to Dark Ethics. I'm Greg Kite. I'm a licensed CPA here in the great state of Utah. And I'm.

Adam Broud: [00:01:13] Adam Browde. I have a masters in business administration from Brigham Young University.

Greg Kyte: [00:01:18] A ethics is the only certified course where the presenters, me and Adam, get more and more while we discuss the intricacies of behavioral ethics.

Adam Broud: [00:01:27] And it's never not funny. Today's episode is moral codes, self-image, and.

Greg Kyte: [00:01:33] We are going to take seven during the course of this one hour podcast and there's no time like the present. So here goes, number one. Ooh, Spicy.

Adam Broud: [00:01:47] Ya. Uh, we also have another person in the studio with us today. The wonderful Crystal Poloa. She calls the shots literally when she rings the bell. We have to take a shot.

Greg Kyte: [00:01:58] And for today's podcast, we are plantation brand.

Adam Broud: [00:02:03] They are not a sponsor.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:04] It's. Did you notice on here they call it a three star.

Adam Broud: [00:02:08] Yes, three stars.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:10] Most things are out of five stars.

Adam Broud: [00:02:12] I had the same. I assume that's what they call the the islands that are represented there.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:17] Maybe that's. Oh, because it's from Jamaica, Barbados and Trinidad.

Adam Broud: [00:02:20] But if not, I respect a thing that it's like we just get by like.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:24] Well, they're setting your expectations. If they're like, this is okay. And then you go, Oh, this is the best, then you're going to be. Then you're going to become a loyal customer, you know.

Adam Broud: [00:02:31] Actually like it quite a bit. I think it's pretty good.

Greg Kyte: [00:02:33] Yeah, it is pretty good. So today we're going to get into we're going to get into this just by having a more broad discussion about ethics than we have in the past. So, Adam, question Just in general. Yes, the population of the planet. Yes. Do you think that people believe that they are good and honest people like the average Joe? Do you think that person believes that they themselves are good and honest?

Adam Broud: [00:02:59] Uh, I would say yes. The average person is going to tell you that they are good and honest.

Greg Kyte: [00:03:04] Okay, gotcha. I'm going to say the same thing. And it's and it's funny because if you have you heard that stat where it's like 85% of all drivers believe that they're above average drivers.

Adam Broud: [00:03:15] Yes. The better than average effect. Yeah. Is actually one of my favorite things.

Greg Kyte: [00:03:19] Wait, is that okay? So BackStory, you were an aspiring psychology PhD.

Adam Broud: [00:03:24] Yes, I did a year of an experimental psychology PhD, and then I sold my soul to business instead.

Greg Kyte: [00:03:31] So. Okay, so what was the thing you were just talking.

Adam Broud: [00:03:35] Better than average effect. So when you ask people about most things in life, they will respond that they are better than most people, than the average person. Okay. At those things regardless almost of what it is. Yeah. Which I think is very fun because usually people say the reason I like it so much is because usually people say, Oh, but not everyone can be better than average. That's not how averages work, right? But there is one way for most people to be better than average, and that's if you just have a lot of people who just absolutely suck at something.

Greg Kyte: [00:04:07] Oh, right, right, right.

Adam Broud: [00:04:08] And they pull the average really far down. Gotcha. So I actually like to imagine that there's like most people are doing pretty good, but there's a few guys who are like, I just can't get it together, right?

Greg Kyte: [00:04:17] Anything. Right.

Adam Broud: [00:04:19] So which I think is very funny. So maybe most people are more honest than most than the average. Okay. There's just a few people who. Right? You couldn't even know their first name for the amount that they lie about everything. Right?

Greg Kyte: [00:04:31] So it's like it's like if I put Satan into our statistical sample, he pulls the average way down, way down. All the rest of us are above average.

Adam Broud: [00:04:40] Way, way, way.

Greg Kyte: [00:04:41] Satan in the statistical sample. Yes. Awesome. The other thing is, so you got your MBA, you were you were doing psychology. Now you're in marketing.

Adam Broud: [00:04:50] Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:04:50] Which is the best way to use your psychology background for evil And and are you familiar with this concept? This was a this was an idea that was brought up to me a few years ago, several years ago, that everyone, when they make a purchasing decision, they're actually making that decision on an emotional level. It's an emotional purchasing decision. But then I'm not even going to say subconscious. I'm going to say unconsciously they instantaneously come up with with rational, in quotes, rational justifications for that purchase. Is that a new concept to you or is a marketer, is that something that you. Yeah. Is that the world you live in all day long?

Adam Broud: [00:05:26] I'm actually more familiar with that concept than your average person if you if you will. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean you can get into it. When people get to like certain price points, it becomes less emotional and more rational. Okay. For stuff. Okay. Usually the number they throw out there is 80 bucks or whatever. But. Okay. Um, but yeah, so. But but, uh, people make most life choices that way where they, where they make a lot of life choices with a lot of emotion. But then when you go back, you give yourself rational reasons as to why you would, you would think that way, right? And we kind of do the opposite for other people as well. A lot of times we give more rational reasons in assumptions to other people as well as things have to do with their character. Like if I'm late, it's because circumstances happened.

Greg Kyte: [00:06:10] Oh, that's what.

Adam Broud: [00:06:11] You think about you. Yeah, but if I'm late, it's because something made me late. But if you're late, well, you're. You're an inconsiderate person. I'm an CENSORED. Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah. Like. Anyway, but that's. That's maybe one step removed. But yeah, people absolutely they purchase. They're like, oh, you know what? I actually wanted this gold plated Pokemon card for good reasons, right? Good reasons that I want it.

Greg Kyte: [00:06:32] I need I need to buy this 1973 Ford Bronco because it has four wheel drive. And I live in the Rocky Mountains and the winters here. There's several days where. Four wheel drive would be very handy to have.

Adam Broud: [00:06:44] Every person who's ever purchased a truck I feel like is like this as well. Well, you never know when you're going to haul something. I know when you're going to haul something because the answer is most likely never. Right?

Greg Kyte: [00:06:53] Right. It's like it's like that one time a year. And then once you get the truck, you're like, why do these people keep asking me my help to move?

Adam Broud: [00:06:59] Yeah, exactly.

Greg Kyte: [00:07:00] So, yeah, bad, bad decision. Okay, So the the reason I ask about that whole marketing concept is because I believe that ethical behavior can be can be very similar to that purchasing, that purchasing dynamic where we make we make ethical decisions. And, and even though like we almost reflexively have a ping inside us that goes, I don't know if this is the right thing to do, but we go, oh, but, but there's this, this and this. So I'm fine. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like it's this justification which in the in the accounting world did we talk about this on another podcast, the fraud triangle?

Adam Broud: [00:07:35] No.

Greg Kyte: [00:07:35] Okay. So, so in the accounting world there's this concept of the fraud triangle, which basically the idea is you need three things to be present in order for someone to actually commit a fraud, you need the opportunity. If there's no opportunity to commit fraud, you can't commit fraud. That makes sense. You need some sort of pressure. You have to have something that's like like like some sort of drive to commit the crime. And a lot of the real go to example of that is like gambling. If you have if you have a gambling problem.

Adam Broud: [00:08:02] Oh, okay, then you lost.

Greg Kyte: [00:08:04] You know, somebody's going to come and break your kneecaps and let's you get some more money or.

Adam Broud: [00:08:08] Or maybe your best friend. Is that one of the most liars that pull down the better than average effect for everybody else? Well, no, but just whispered into your ear constantly. Do a fraud. Do a fraud. Oh, does that count?

Greg Kyte: [00:08:19] Well, it could if that friend is like going, Hey, Oh, there we go. Number two. Uh, that could be the case if your friend is, like, pressuring you, if they're, like, going, Hey, all the cool kids are stealing from their companies, that would be pressure.

Adam Broud: [00:08:34] But I'd say cool accountants do it.

Greg Kyte: [00:08:36] But then the third the third side of the fraud triangle is rationalization is what it is, rationalization.

Adam Broud: [00:08:43] Oh, okay. Where you're like, No, it's actually good that I did a fraud.

Greg Kyte: [00:08:46] You have? Well, it's this idea of going, it's like we were saying, most people believe that they are honest people.

Adam Broud: [00:08:52] Yeah, they want to for sure.

Greg Kyte: [00:08:53] And they want. Yeah, like we have this need. We feel this need inside us. To maintain that positive self-image of I'm a good person. And so you commit a fraud, but you still have to be able to rationalize and go, okay, I'm not a giant piece of crap for committing this fraud. There's reason and you look at things like a big financial statement, frauds that have been in the news and a great rationalization for that is I wasn't doing this for me. I was doing this for the shareholders to, you know, because they needed they needed the stock prices to go up. And granted, I'm one of the largest shareholders. So yes, it helps me too.

Adam Broud: [00:09:28] But fraud was part of my fiduciary responsibility.

Greg Kyte: [00:09:31] Exactly.

Adam Broud: [00:09:32] Exactly. Stupid.

Greg Kyte: [00:09:34] So so there's rationalization, too. So so really, the funny thing, I mean, when we really when I take a step back and I think of, okay, I just.

Adam Broud: [00:09:43] Realized I do this every night when I eat my midnight snack is what I realized is.

Greg Kyte: [00:09:46] Your rationalization.

Adam Broud: [00:09:47] Every single time I, like, pull out a bowl of cereal. And let's be honest, the reason I want it is because it's a it's a sugary treat. And Lucky charms are delicious. Absolutely. But my rationalization is, you know, if I'm hungry now, I can't be waking up at 4 a.m. because I'm hungry.

Greg Kyte: [00:10:02] I'm not going to be able to pour this. I'm going to pour the milk on the floor. That would be irresponsible.

Adam Broud: [00:10:06] I just shouldn't be waking. I should sleep through 4 a.m. But never in my life have I ever gone to bed slightly hungry and woken up at 4:00 am with like, Oh, I should have had that bowl of Lucky Charms. That wouldn't have been in the situation.

Greg Kyte: [00:10:17] If I only had the foresight.

Adam Broud: [00:10:18] Yeah, exactly. So now I got to pop those hearts, stars and horseshoes. Thanks to my previous self.

Greg Kyte: [00:10:24] An idiot. I could be asleep if it if I had. If I'd planned.

Adam Broud: [00:10:27] Properly. Never done my sleep. It's always an emotional choice, but a rational realization or a logical rationalization. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:10:35] Of. Of. Of poor behavior. Yes. Yes. Okay.

Adam Broud: [00:10:38] So I'm fine with it, but. Yeah, right, right. Well, cause I'm a good person. Oh, no, I'm doing it again.

Greg Kyte: [00:10:43] But let's say it. A suboptimal behavior. Yeah, Yeah. But even that's rationalization. It's not bad behavior. It's suboptimal behavior, because that makes me feel better about myself. So.

Adam Broud: [00:10:53] Okay. Are the examples we seek for how fun.

Greg Kyte: [00:10:55] So ethics. The relationship I see between between ethics, especially when we talk about here with behavioral ethics. Yes, behavioral ethics to fraud is behavioral ethics. What ethics and ethics training and ethics is trying to do is it's trying to to do everything it can to minimize your your ability to rationalize the fraud. Okay. So that's that's kind of the idea of what you're doing because it's like, oh, this is a bad these are bad things. Then you go, I can't I can't do it.

Adam Broud: [00:11:24] Yeah, you you lay the path for those synapses to be like, Nope, we know this route and it's bad one.

Greg Kyte: [00:11:30] Yep, exactly. So the next one and we're actually going to get into some really cool things about that fun. The next next question I have for you is how much do you think our ethical behavior is influenced by our social group, by the people that we're with?

Adam Broud: [00:11:43] Oh, 100%. Is that a dumb question? I don't think it's a dumb question. I think it's a I think it has an obvious answer, but I think it's a fun thing to think about. Is it a suboptimal question? It's a suboptimal. It's not a bad there's no bad questions. There's just this question. Uh, no, it's because I think it's something that a lot of people would rationalize and be like, No, no, no. I'm the same person. Always. Absolutely false. Absolutely false. I'm right. I'm not the same person when I'm alone. Absolutely not. Right. As soon as I get home, when my it's as simple as when I'm not with my wife. The TV shows I watch become different than the ones I watch with her. Right? Right.

Greg Kyte: [00:12:19] And not that that's bad. Not that that's ethical, but yeah, you're not.

Adam Broud: [00:12:22] Ethical, but it's absolutely influenced. So if I'm not, how can you be influenced on that small level, but on on like a larger level, Like, that's crazy. Well, which also I steal when she's not right. No, that's not true. I murder.

Greg Kyte: [00:12:33] You're going through sock drawers going Where's that cash. I know she's got some in here somewhere.

Adam Broud: [00:12:37] That was the first on a laundry list of terrible decisions I make when my wife's not. Right.

Greg Kyte: [00:12:42] Well, but. But being alone, it's funny because that's one of the things I thought about when I was writing out this question in preparation for the podcast. I was going think about just being like, think about nudity. Like nudity in and of itself. Not ethically wrong. No. And we're and we're nude at I'm assuming for most people, at least for a portion of every day. Yeah.

Adam Broud: [00:13:03] Not as much as I wish I were, but definitely am some of the time.

Greg Kyte: [00:13:06] But but that's the thing. So. So I know you're joking around but. But legit.

Adam Broud: [00:13:10] Every joke has a little bit of truth.

Greg Kyte: [00:13:11] If you're with other people, you're. Well. Well, no, no, no. All of it. If you're so you go to work and you're nude and it's like, Oh, that's a crime. And you go to jail and you lose your job. Yeah. If you go to work, think if you go to work in a swimsuit, you're still probably going to lose that job. Funny story at a accounting firm that I used to work at, part of the dress code specifically said you can't wear swimsuit.

Adam Broud: [00:13:34] To work.

Greg Kyte: [00:13:34] Which I love, because that means that at some.

Adam Broud: [00:13:37] Point what a fun dude used to work.

Greg Kyte: [00:13:39] There. At some point Debbie came to work in a swimsuit and it's like, Hey, Debbie. But but accountants are so we're so fricking conflict avoidant that it's like, I'm not going to talk to Debbie about it because that'd be weird. So what we're going to do instead is we're going to modify the dress code to include no swimsuits, and then we're going to email it to.

Adam Broud: [00:13:57] Everybody. And for the rest of the day, just ask Debbie if maybe she had, like, a haircut. Maybe that's what changed.

Greg Kyte: [00:14:01] Just be like, Hey, put a towel down.

Adam Broud: [00:14:02] Yeah. Uh. Wow. This is, like, personal to me because I just bought my first tank top ever. I know that might sound really weird to people.

Greg Kyte: [00:14:09] That is bizarre. Is that.

Adam Broud: [00:14:10] Weird? What I have. I've always felt too self-conscious about my body to buy one. Anyway, I bought my first tank top, and at work there's a workout room and it's a kind of a gray area, I feel, because I've. I've my work, I dress relaxed, I can wear like a t shirt and stuff, but I've never worn a tank top, nor have I seen anyone else wearing a tank top. But there's a workout room and I work out almost first thing when I get there. Yeah. And so I'm like, Oh, it's a step away from swimsuit. It's a step away. It is.

Greg Kyte: [00:14:38] But but again, all of this stuff is basically saying, here's the social context. If you're a swimming pool, if you're if you're wearing. That's the.

Adam Broud: [00:14:45] Thing. Well, that's my social context, right? I'm not in the workout room, but I'm just adjacent to it and I'm about to use it. But I'm still at work.

Greg Kyte: [00:14:51] And you're in a tank top and you feel weird. Yeah. Yeah. And same thing with at a swimming pool like you see the guy you see like full grown men who are wearing long sleeve t shirts in the pool and you're like, Oh, and.

Adam Broud: [00:15:03] A good uncle in a swim shirt. Oh, it's so great. It's the cutest.

Greg Kyte: [00:15:07] But aren't you thinking you're the weirdo for not being nude enough in this pool? So, so, so social? And I would say so going back to what I said initially, being naked is not ethically wrong in and of itself. Yes, but. But we start going, Oh, it is in certain contexts. And that's entirely based on these on these social circles that we're in. And I mean, even going back to the stuff that I remember hearing a hundred years ago is like, there are there are some there are some groups and some some people who live in parts of the world where it's just so tropical that they are they're naked. They're basically naked all the time. And it's just no big deal because that's the it's so hot.

Adam Broud: [00:15:52] This is Greg's pitch for nude ethics.

Greg Kyte: [00:15:56] Next year.

Adam Broud: [00:15:56] 20 minutes, take a shower and remove an article.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:00] That's what it is. And I've only. That's seven. I'd be naked by five. Um, okay, so next thing we're going to transition into with all that, that conversation kind of as the foundation, your.

Adam Broud: [00:16:14] Your social surroundings alter your state of mind and you're an emotional person who will rationalize logically about your ethics. Perfect.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:23] So, so we get.

Adam Broud: [00:16:24] Into that felt perfect for us. I hope that was actually good.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:26] I think No, no, it was perfect. Dude, we're solid. And by the way, pretty good. How many Crystal? How many was that? Three. Okay. Three shots in last time.

Adam Broud: [00:16:34] We maybe just did six because not only were we drew and miss counting, we were drunk and miss counting so loudly that both Crystal and Zach, who's running the sound, was it loud?

Greg Kyte: [00:16:46] It was confident. We were.

Adam Broud: [00:16:47] Confident.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:48] In our in our area. It's like this was this was number seven.

Adam Broud: [00:16:51] Number five doesn't exist. We just went for it.

Greg Kyte: [00:16:55] But the funny thing is, I'm sure if you listen to that one, that was the one with the Sparkle donkey, too. If you listen to the Sparkle Donkey two episode and you're an accountant, you were keeping track of how many shots we took. So you already knew that. Now my favorite guy that I. Oh, and by the way, I was just going to say this one. It wasn't my favorite three. This is my favorite thing ever. Nice. But a guy dude named Dan Ariely. He is. He's a behavioral economist is what he calls himself. But really, I think what that means is the same.

Adam Broud: [00:17:25] Guy from last time.

Greg Kyte: [00:17:26] Probably. Yeah. You like this guy? Yeah, I love him. He's got because he's done tons of research on ethics and we're really going to dig into the research and. And how he did it.

Adam Broud: [00:17:34] That's right. I called him Dave Dan when I was six, right?

Greg Kyte: [00:17:40] That's right.

Adam Broud: [00:17:41] Exactly.

Greg Kyte: [00:17:42] So, um, so yes, we we did talk about him. He but behavioral a behavioral economist I think is similar to you where he was he was actually a behavioral psychologist. But and he's like, I can't make money doing this, so let's apply it to business. And now he's a rich mofo.

Adam Broud: [00:17:56] There you go.

Greg Kyte: [00:17:56] So Dan Ariely, here's what he did to to test people's ethics, to be able to do research on people's ethical decision.

Adam Broud: [00:18:05] Gosh, I love that. Area of research. I think that's so fun. Yeah. Tricking people into doing the bad things they don't want to do and then being like, this is for science. I'm morally neutral.

Greg Kyte: [00:18:15] Exactly. Well, okay. And it gets nuts. So here's basically here's here's what it is I've got on your sheet right here. Yes. We've got this matrix. This was what he would do is he'd get he'd get students who volunteered to be part of his experiment. Okay. And and the way he would do it is he'd give them 20 minutes. It's a 20 minute time test and he'd give them 20 of these of these matrices that we see right here. Oh, my goodness. It's a three by four matrix. Every every box is filled with a three digit number. It's like the first one in this one in this example is 1.17. Yeah. And all of them have a digit, so it's a single digit with two out to the hundredths place. And, and the your task was you had to find the two numbers in this matrix that added up to the number ten. Oh and there's a there's exactly one pair in there and you have to find it. So you go, okay, that's like legit fifth grade math, maybe fourth grade math if you were gifted and talented. So that's that's what you had to do. But you only had 20 minutes to do it. It's not it's not difficult math. It's time consuming math. And you would get paid for every matrix that you got, right. Oh, in this.

Adam Broud: [00:19:23] Oh, okay.

Greg Kyte: [00:19:24] So, so they so they start the clock, they'd give you these 20 matrices, they'd have you get going and at the end you'd turn them in, they'd grade them and they'd give, they'd pay you according to what you got. Correct. And what they found is on average because they just they just take the average score for everybody and they use that as the control group. So they they took the average score on average people would be in 20 minutes. People would be able to get seven of these. Right. So it took about three minutes of going through on each one to to be able or that's.

Adam Broud: [00:19:52] Surprising to me or.

Greg Kyte: [00:19:53] They surprisingly high or low. Low low. Yeah.

Adam Broud: [00:19:57] Yeah I'd probably be better than the average person at this.

Greg Kyte: [00:19:59] Interesting his according to his self-reported research, the average score was seven on this not not an awesome score out of 20 is is.

Adam Broud: [00:20:08] What it was I guess there was a case they could have gotten some wrong so.

Greg Kyte: [00:20:10] Right right yeah that's that's also absolutely the case. So so then so so we use that as a baseline going. Okay.

Adam Broud: [00:20:17] On average. On average when.

Greg Kyte: [00:20:18] Things are normal. Like a like a testing center situation. Yeah. People are getting seven, seven out of 20 of these. Right. Sure. The other thing to think about is that people didn't really know that this was coming. They couldn't really prepare themselves and get like a strategy for doing this. Oh, okay. So so they just it was like, oh, this is what we're doing. Okay. Oh, how do.

Adam Broud: [00:20:35] I do these? Whereas I took the GRE and the GMAT for both of my So as soon as I saw it, I got a flood of like test taking secrets come to mind that were like, There you go. This is how you trick people into thinking you're smarter than you are. Right? Right. That's great.

Greg Kyte: [00:20:49] Uh, so then to to to judge people's level of cheating, he did the exact same thing. So the exact same test, the exact same amount of time, the exact same payout per per question that you got. Right. But in the second situation with with a different cohort, with different cohorts of people, he would say, okay, take the test. And then he'd give them the answer sheet and he'd say, You grade your own paper.

Adam Broud: [00:21:13] Grade your own paper.

Greg Kyte: [00:21:13] And then not only that.

Adam Broud: [00:21:15] I'm 20 for 20, baby.

Greg Kyte: [00:21:16] Once you grade your own paper, here's a piece of scrap paper. I need you to write your score on the scrap paper, not on the test that you.

Adam Broud: [00:21:23] So there's no evidence, Right?

Greg Kyte: [00:21:24] And then. No, No. And you get better. And it's like there's a shredder in the corner. Shred all the documentation of all your scratch work. You shred all of that, and then just take the scratch paper up to the proctor to pay you your money for for your for your test.

Adam Broud: [00:21:39] And whoever scores highest. There are certain businesses wanting to recruit you for an accounting job that are sitting just outside. Goldman Sachs is very interested in you all of a sudden.

Greg Kyte: [00:21:49] Exactly. So but then that's the question. So here's the question I have for you. So knowing so so the when cheating wasn't possible. Yeah. The average score was seven. Correct. In this cheating possible scenario, what do you think the score the average score went up to?

Adam Broud: [00:22:04] You know, I jokingly said, well, I said 20 for 20 because there were 20. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:08] And we're talking average score. Yeah. It's out of 20 average score.

Adam Broud: [00:22:11] I jokingly said 20, but I bet a bunch of people gave themselves lower scores because they're like, Well, I'm dishonest, but I'm not like that dishonest or whatever. So I bet that they gave something like, I'm going to go with like 12.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:21] Shut the front door. That's exactly right. Is that really what. That's exactly right. Yeah. Okay. I love you so much because you bring so much. But I hate you so much because you get the right answer every CENSORED time.

Adam Broud: [00:22:33] They should have stuck with psychology.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:35] You're like, Well, I'm just kind of thinking through this logically, what our topic is today. And then you give away like my big reveal.

Adam Broud: [00:22:41] The thinking through this emotionally is what I thought through so well.

Greg Kyte: [00:22:45] How did you how did you how did you get to 12? Tell me.

Adam Broud: [00:22:47] Absolutely. I'm willing to bet that everybody is like looking at it and they're like, Oh, I'm going to let's be honest. Really, how I got to this is because I took math tests in high school that I had to grade myself. That's really where it comes from, where because if you if you cheat on your paper and you like put, oh, here comes another.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:04] We don't ever cheers these.

Adam Broud: [00:23:06] We don't. I'm sorry if that's. If that's a disappointment to you.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:10] It's a disappointment to me. Okay, so you took math test, you graded yourself and you cheated on those.

Adam Broud: [00:23:15] Not all of them. Okay. But sure, I cheated on it. Well, I guess it was more English vocab tests.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:20] Okay, well, still, it's a test, and.

Adam Broud: [00:23:22] You have to turn it in. You cheat on a few or like. Yeah, you don't cheat on all of them. And then if you cheat on just like 1 or 2 or whatever, you get your paper back and your teacher is like, Hey, you put that you were right and you were wrong. You're like, Huh? I'm a dumb dummy. I mean, look how many I got wrong. You can't argue with that, right? I must have just made a mistake. Right? So I'm sure that they're part of it is like, well, let's see how this rides out. Okay? But I bet the bigger.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:45] So you think some of that fear was fear of getting caught?

Adam Broud: [00:23:47] I bet part of it is okay. Just that they.

Greg Kyte: [00:23:50] Shredded their paper. Yeah, but they're still like in in an eight.

Adam Broud: [00:23:53] Oh, sure. When you're doing something wrong, absolutely. Everything seems possible. Like a conspiracy. Okay. Especially if you're doing something that's so easily found. I'm sure that there are some people are like he says, he wants me to shred my paper, but that seems too convenient. Right? Right. But I bet the bigger part of it is someone's looking at it and they're like, okay, I said 6.28 and 4.82, but the answer is 3.82. Now I know why I got that wrong. I was pretty close. I think I actually meant to circle 3.82, so I'm going to give myself the credit. And then they rationalize it where they're like, Oh, did I? If I'm grading, if I knew the right answer, I knew the right answer. If I'm grading, did I circle the right answer? No. But this is a test of did I know the right answer?

Greg Kyte: [00:24:35] Rationalization?

Adam Broud: [00:24:36] Answer Absolutely. And so then they do that. But you can't do that every time. You can't tell yourself that because otherwise you think you're a bad person, right? We don't want to think you're a bad person.

Greg Kyte: [00:24:44] Okay. And my my take on it. So everything you're saying, I think is absolutely valid. My take on this has always been because and I've done this, so I've presented this a lot, this, this, this concept a lot. Live to a live audience of continuing education takers and all.

Adam Broud: [00:24:59] Oh you've presented. Oh you've told them about you haven't had them do it. No.

Greg Kyte: [00:25:02] Yes I did, I did but but not under. I've had them take a quiz. It was it was like a trivia quiz. Yeah. But it was really just to waste time because I had to do two hours of ethics and go take this quiz. And then I go, So it was a quiz like this. Now let me tell you how he screwed.

Adam Broud: [00:25:16] Hire us for any of your corporate events. We'll do better than that. One was.

Greg Kyte: [00:25:20] Listen. But no, but it was it was pretty engaging. And I thought I thought it was a great way.

Adam Broud: [00:25:23] That seems very fun to make people.

Greg Kyte: [00:25:25] Lock in.

Adam Broud: [00:25:26] To the. I would have loved that.

Greg Kyte: [00:25:27] So but when I told them when I would tell my live audience about this cheating possible yes thing and I and I would just say, hey, shout it out. What do you guys think the average score went up to? And without question, people would be like 20 Oh yeah, I'll be like, It's got. And you even said something jokingly about that when.

Adam Broud: [00:25:44] I was joking because I'm smarter than the average person. Right? But these is what this podcast is really about.

Greg Kyte: [00:25:48] But here's what so so here's the thing, though, Based on that, obviously anecdotal evidence of people's knee jerk reaction is to how other people are going to perform.

Adam Broud: [00:25:57] Win big.

Greg Kyte: [00:25:58] And.

Adam Broud: [00:25:59] Then, oh, judging other people's stuff. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:26:02] So they're going, oh, if you can cheat all of these all of these horrible people are cheating as much as they can. Sure. I'm way better than that. And I'm only going to cheat by I'm only.

Adam Broud: [00:26:15] And also. Oh, I love.

Greg Kyte: [00:26:17] So I'm only going to cheat to 12 instead of to 20 because I'm sure everybody else is cheating all the way. And then the.

Adam Broud: [00:26:22] Other I'm a better person when it comes to cheating than the average person. Oh, that's such a beautiful thought. Humans are the most stupid, beautiful animals and I love them.

Greg Kyte: [00:26:30] The other thing and this is this is more me just trying to think through this because this the bulk of the experiments that Dan Ariely reports on were done at MIT. So it's every.

Adam Broud: [00:26:41] Time you say. Ariely Do you think?

Greg Kyte: [00:26:43] Arya No, I only do when you.

Adam Broud: [00:26:45] Start asking.

Greg Kyte: [00:26:46] Me that. So the he, he oh yeah, it's MIT so it's college students okay. Is who we've got doing these tests.

Adam Broud: [00:26:56] Oh yeah. People don't trust college students at all.

Greg Kyte: [00:26:58] But no, think about it. If you're a college student and you got a seven out of 20, you're going, oh my gosh, this is the worst test I've ever taken in my life. Yeah, And but if you tests.

Adam Broud: [00:27:08] Are so high pressure when you're in college as well.

Greg Kyte: [00:27:10] But then think about what are you doing if you're saying I didn't get a 45% or a 35, I didn't get a 35%, I got a 60%.

Adam Broud: [00:27:19] Nailed it.

Greg Kyte: [00:27:20] You're saying no. You're saying you're saying I am. I am. I'm a good enough person to only give myself a barely passing like this. Wouldn't be passing if it was a class that was in my major.

Adam Broud: [00:27:32] Yeah, but I believe in myself to the level of a D.

Greg Kyte: [00:27:35] Yeah, but it's just like, again, I think it's part of how you justify it. You go, I'm not giving myself an A plus, plus I'm giving myself a D minus on this test. So I'm not a horrible person.

Adam Broud: [00:27:45] I think that's still I love that there's some people listening to this podcast who are bound to think that's why you should just cheat big. That's like the lesson they're walking away with, I hope.

Greg Kyte: [00:27:53] Okay. And now in terms of cheating big, here's what Dan Ariely says about his his research as a whole is he says that they've done this test to thousands of people. They've they've changed even when.

Adam Broud: [00:28:06] Really it was just a couple hundred. Nice try, Dave. Dan Whatever his name. Dan Nice try.

Greg Kyte: [00:28:12] Dan They changed the amount of compensation people would get for the right answers.

Adam Broud: [00:28:16] Okay.

Greg Kyte: [00:28:17] They did all this stuff. And he says, throughout all of our experiments, he said, we we have never, not once had anyone who was able to cheat. No one has ever given themselves an 18 or a 19. Whoa. They said we've had a few people who have given themselves a 20. But there's there's this like, there's this weird, like, rainshadow area of the 18 and 19. Why do you think that's the case? What do you think explains that the jump? Because I have an idea.

Adam Broud: [00:28:45] I don't I don't really know. I you know, the the 20s are pretty interesting to me because in all honesty, I think I maybe would give myself a 20. Yeah, but not but because I would try to take one more step back and be like, okay, this is obviously an experiment, right? We're testing something. I'm going to CENSORED with people and it's more fun to go way big when someone's clearly asking something. My honesty. Yeah, because it seems like a more fun story to have a researcher in front of me and be like, Hey, we noticed some discrepancies. I'd be like, probably from some of these idiots. I was the one who got a 20 out of 20, and even though I wouldn't believe it, it would be my morals fall as a comedian as do the funnier thing. And it's funnier to lie big.

Greg Kyte: [00:29:24] Well, but it's 18.

Adam Broud: [00:29:25] Or 19 is fascinating. Why they would skip over that. Right?

Greg Kyte: [00:29:28] Well, okay. And I love what you just said, too, because you were like going, okay, I and I'm drunk enough to. Yeah, I a really I had a really important point. I was going to note. You just said, oh, no, no. Because you, you in that terms of rationalization, you were going, I understand this is just a this is a this is a game. Everything right here is just a game. This isn't the real world.

Adam Broud: [00:29:52] There's a higher moral at hand, which is comedy.

Greg Kyte: [00:29:55] Which is comedy. But but even like that, you're going they have this money allocated to the psychology department. I'm not. They're planning on spending this money anyways. And so it's really not an ethical this isn't an ethical thing at all. This is just a game, if anything, to play.

Adam Broud: [00:30:11] To help them discover one more thing about the human human situation.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:14] Right. Exactly. So I think that that's that that's very fun, what you're saying right there. My my take on the whole thing.

Adam Broud: [00:30:20] Yeah. The 18 or.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:21] 19, the 18 or 19 missing.

Adam Broud: [00:30:23] What you think about that is psychopathy.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:26] Oh.

Adam Broud: [00:30:27] Psychopathy.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:30] You've got apparently, from what I've read, 1% of the human population is psychopaths and psychopaths.

Adam Broud: [00:30:38] This is a hard lesson to learn. Right after I said I'd give myself 20, but keep going.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:42] It is. And I'm going to say those people. Well, and maybe.

Adam Broud: [00:30:46] They were just comedians. 1% of the population is comedians.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:49] Yeah, that's that's probably.

Adam Broud: [00:30:51] The overlap between those and comedians might be greater than I'd like to admit.

Greg Kyte: [00:30:54] Yeah it's it's there's a high correlation the but the idea is that psychopaths. Yeah they don't have that internal compunction to see them that they just don't feel the need to view themselves as good people.

Adam Broud: [00:31:07] Well because the the yeah. The morals are derived from the end. The means always justify the end.

Greg Kyte: [00:31:13] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There you go. So. So I don't care what our social construct is about morals. I don't have any kind of internal compass. The only reason I might follow the rules is because it's going to benefit me. Yeah, The goal.

Adam Broud: [00:31:25] Is not to be honest in life. The goal is to get 20 bucks.

Greg Kyte: [00:31:29] And they go. They go, Oh, I can get I can cheat and get 20 bucks. So here's okay. So that's what I think explains that. But here's so so Dan Ariely, he he then takes this information that he has the seven average when you can't cheat the 12 average, when you can cheat. Yes. And then he starts messing with people even further with that. So here's one of the.

Adam Broud: [00:31:50] Ways I love this guy as well.

Greg Kyte: [00:31:51] He's so much fun. This is why I wanted him to like me so bad when I met him in real life and he was so not interested in me at all.

Adam Broud: [00:31:58] I hope he. I hope you get another chance. And he'll love you. He will hate me. No, he will like retro if he hears anything about us.

Greg Kyte: [00:32:04] I have. I have you. I have leveraged his data to my benefit so much he should hate me worse than he ever has.

Adam Broud: [00:32:13] Research.

Greg Kyte: [00:32:15] But I also wonder if I pushed some of his books. Dan Ariely. He's got some wonderful books. Go buy him and read them. I'll read it. There you go. So So here's one of the ways that.

Adam Broud: [00:32:21] He messed a sponsor.

Greg Kyte: [00:32:23] Here's the one of the ways he messed with people even more. Same thing in the cheating was possible scenario. Yeah yeah yeah he he had however many people were in the cohort I don't know how many people were in the cohort taking the test that day, but he hired one person to be an actor to, to pretend like he was.

Adam Broud: [00:32:38] Just a Confederate. That's what they call those.

Greg Kyte: [00:32:40] Okay. So he hired a Confederate.

Adam Broud: [00:32:42] Seems problematic, but that's what they call it, right?

Greg Kyte: [00:32:44] As does plantation brand.

Adam Broud: [00:32:46] Oh, that's true.

Greg Kyte: [00:32:47] So this is a podcast of a problem, a problematic. So he hires a he hires a ringer. I'm going to call it a ringer. Okay.

Adam Broud: [00:32:55] And this is a go on.

Greg Kyte: [00:32:59] And the Ringers job, he had one job. So he goes in, he's pretending like he's just a knucklehead. Like the rest of the people taking this test, they explain that you grade your own, you shred it, you take your scrap of paper, you give it to the people, you get paid. Sure. So this guy's whole job was to wait approximately 60s after they explained that. Okay, to stand up very publicly, walk over to the shredder, go shred all this stuff, go up to the proctor and be like, got 20 out of 20. They hand him the 20 bucks and he leaves.

Adam Broud: [00:33:28] I love it. That was.

Greg Kyte: [00:33:29] How he tweaked the whole fun.

Adam Broud: [00:33:30] Job.

Greg Kyte: [00:33:31] Right? Isn't it just messing with people, man?

Adam Broud: [00:33:33] My my goal is always to be the next person after the Confederate, to just always be the first one to stand up and go, This guy, That's it. That's all I want. And every psychological experiment, it's just be that. Okay. And then they have to report that audit where they're like, We had most responses like this, but we also had one stand out person who said, quote, this I would love for that to go into research paper and so would every psychologist.

Greg Kyte: [00:33:56] So, okay, so what do you think happened to the average score with with the guy? What do I call this guy? Oh, the ringer. The ringer.

Adam Broud: [00:34:04] The ringer. The ring up for sure. You just got social permission to just say.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:08] Oh, gosh, you're so seriously, your your training has made it so.

Adam Broud: [00:34:13] Okay, well, the thing just like, went up because before you were like, well, the average person is going to cheat on this for sure, Right? But they'll cheat on this, too, like a 18 or 19 not realizing that you're talking about psychopaths. Right. And so you're all of a sudden going to be like, well, if that guy's giving himself like a perfect score, then I can give myself something like a 17. Okay, Maybe like a 15 or 16 or something. 15. We'll go 15 by three.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:32] I hate you so much. The right answer is 15. It's 15. I mean, now.

Adam Broud: [00:34:36] Grand conditioning.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:37] Granted. Granted, you just said four different numbers, so I could have hated you at any time during that.

Adam Broud: [00:34:42] I am under the influence of. And I had to go through the process before I got to the right answer. Okay. That's called science. It's great. My brain did science. But again.

Greg Kyte: [00:34:51] I think you're exactly right. We're the social permission. I've never used that word, but I like it because social permission, this guy just because before, like I was saying, my my understanding of this before is people are going I assume people are going to are going to swing for the fences and get 20 out of 20. But that's still an assumption. Then when I have.

Adam Broud: [00:35:10] See it, yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:35:11] I go, oh, everybody is. I was right if that guy.

Adam Broud: [00:35:15] Absolutely everybody's everybody's doing it. Not only is everybody doing it the that I know Matthew's doing it and so therefore yeah people are doing this and he.

Greg Kyte: [00:35:24] Didn't he didn't give us a single CENSORED about. Out looking bad in front of everybody or anything. He just took his money and he went.

Adam Broud: [00:35:32] I mean, that's just jobs in general, right? Haven't you ever as a teenager, didn't you ever get like employee of the month at Taco Bell and you looked around and you were like, well, my competition wasn't exactly stark here. Well, that's.

Greg Kyte: [00:35:42] Easy. But you're exactly when it comes to business, this is the exact same thing, is that if people at your job, if you know people are acting at work and then you go, okay, now I have social permission to act at work if I'm.

Adam Broud: [00:35:58] Just next to you every time he exits out of Excel. He just he audibly says, Good enough then. Yeah, right, right. Whatever you want.

Greg Kyte: [00:36:06] Then as long as you exit out 20 minutes after him and say good enough, then you go. At least I'm better than Dave here.

Adam Broud: [00:36:13] Yeah, exactly. And then.

Greg Kyte: [00:36:14] And then you win. Then you win. You win the battle for your own moral self. Self-image.

Adam Broud: [00:36:20] Employee of the Month. Accountant of the month.

Greg Kyte: [00:36:21] Accountant of the month. So that's why, like the culture at your job is so important in terms of having the proper ethics at work. If people are being ethically at your job, you two are going to be ethically at your job.

Adam Broud: [00:36:40] The reverse moral of this is people hearing this and being like, Oh, so I need to get into a morally corrupt place if I want to be morally corrupt as well. Right. Or if I overexaggerate my own moral corruptness and then bring it down real quick, then I'll just match the average. So that's how you work psychopaths. You. Yeah. There's advice for all people in this podcast.

Greg Kyte: [00:36:58] Really. My my I. The way that your brain is doing this ethical chess game makes me concerned too, of.

Adam Broud: [00:37:09] Don't act like that. I don't act like that. I'm a good person despite how I said I cheated on my math test. Right.

Greg Kyte: [00:37:15] Okay. Okay. So the next.

Adam Broud: [00:37:16] The next way I rationally know I'm a good person.

Greg Kyte: [00:37:20] Here's the next way. Dan Ariely messed with people.

Adam Broud: [00:37:23] Yeah, hit me with this stuff.

Greg Kyte: [00:37:24] Dan he he, he did this. He again, he had another ringer. Oh, that's another thing. Another ding dong. Cheers.

Adam Broud: [00:37:32] I like cheers. I get nervous until I hit. How many is this? Six. I get nervous until five. And then I look forward to it.

Greg Kyte: [00:37:41] Uh, the next way Dan Ariely messed with people. He had he hired another ringer, different ringer, different job, a.

Adam Broud: [00:37:49] Different soldier in the Confederacy.

Greg Kyte: [00:37:51] He he this ringer? Yeah. His job was this. So they explained how the test was going to work, that you were going to grade your own paper, that you're going to shred all your stuff and hand the scrap of paper to the person to pay you money. They explained no deal. This guy's job was then they would be like, Does anyone have any questions? And this guy would raise his hand and he would say, I have a question. So you're saying that we could just cheat as much as we want on this test, dude. And the and the proctor? Listen, the proctor the proctor was instructed to respond to that question by saying you may do whatever you please, which obviously is scripted. But but they but they would say that and then let people go.

Adam Broud: [00:38:29] Dude, I did that in a real test once. Did you did it Tell me everything. I was in my MBA and there was an HR professor who we had something came up. I don't remember what it was, but we had to take our test at home instead of in person. Yeah. And he was like, Yeah. So just remember, usually we put a timer on these. We didn't put a timer on this one because for some reason I can't figure it out. But just do two hours and also close notes. You could look at your notes because you're at home, but please don't do it. Yeah, and this is BYU. So it's a Christian college and everyone's like very much so like, Oh, I'm not going to be doing it.

Greg Kyte: [00:39:03] A Christian.

Adam Broud: [00:39:04] College, which sets. Yeah, if you're if you're evangelical, it's like you're not Christian enough. Jesus isn't God, then you're not Christian enough. And so the stakes were so high, which made it once again, my moral compass is it's funnier to say this than it is important to do anything else. Yeah. So I raised my hand and I said, okay. But just to be clear, like if we did cheat though, you wouldn't even know. And he was like, Well, sure, there would be no evidence, but like, you shouldn't do it. And I was like, Right, right, right, right, right. We shouldn't do it. But like, you.

Greg Kyte: [00:39:34] Wouldn't even know. There's no way.

Adam Broud: [00:39:35] Right? And I like really pushed it as a joke and everyone was laughing. He's like, Right. But like, you shouldn't I'm like, oh, no, I would never do it. But just to.

Greg Kyte: [00:39:43] Be clear.

Adam Broud: [00:39:44] If I did, I'd clearly get away with it. And then there was a guy on the other side who said, Just remember, though, angels are silent note taking. And I responded to him, So you're telling me they're keeping their mouth shut? And it was the best response I think.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:01] I've ever had.

Adam Broud: [00:40:02] It was very funny, wonderful. And I was the accidental Confederate. And I didn't cheat on that test. But it was but I probably made some other people cheat at that test, which is very funny in retrospect.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:12] So my my funny story is similar to yours. I used to before I was an accountant. I was a I was a middle school math teacher and I was a lazy middle school math teacher. So I good for you. I always let the students grade their own paper.

Adam Broud: [00:40:23] No one gets paid enough to be my good math teacher.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:26] My justification, my rationalization for this was that if you see the mistakes that you made on your homework, then you're more likely to want to know why you made those mistakes. So so it's like it's I don't know if that's a good.

Adam Broud: [00:40:40] That's what it sounds really good. Sounds like from the teacher's perspective, it sounds really lazy, but I bet it's better teaching.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:46] Honestly, it probably is a better pedagogy.

Adam Broud: [00:40:49] Than like, shame yourself and make it and mark yourself in red.

Greg Kyte: [00:40:52] I'm six in and I just said pedagogy dang but but here's so I would have them grade their own papers. I was explaining that on the first day of class every day to all my students and not every class, but there would be at least one class where a kid would raise his hand and and say so. So we could cheat on our on grading our homework. And that kid's name was always Skyler. I don't know why. What is it about the name Skyler?

Adam Broud: [00:41:16] All of them are CEOs now guaranteed.

Greg Kyte: [00:41:19] And I would be. And so outside I would say something like, well, we here at Dixon Middle School, Dixon Middle School Panthers, we hold ourselves to a higher ethical standard.

Adam Broud: [00:41:27] We hold ourselves to a higher ethical standard.

Greg Kyte: [00:41:30] And we and we wouldn't do such a thing. But inside I was like losing my CENSORED mind going, Skyler, why are you why are you saying out loud the thing that everybody's thinking in their head?

Adam Broud: [00:41:41] And he's like, Shut the CENSORED up, Skyler Because I come from a long line of Skyler's, and we are a proud people.

Greg Kyte: [00:41:47] That's it. Yeah. And so. Okay, but. But now here's the question. So with this ringer saying that question, what do you think happened to the average score?

Adam Broud: [00:41:53] Dude, let's see if I can even remember what the ringer said.

Greg Kyte: [00:41:56] The ringer said, So I can cheat as much as I want.

Adam Broud: [00:41:58] Oh, so I can cheat.

Greg Kyte: [00:41:59] And the proctor says you may do whatever you please.

Adam Broud: [00:42:02] Oh, I think I mean, you may do whatever you please. Pulls the pulls the curtain back a bit. So I think people cheated more. But somehow I feel like not seeing someone do it, just asking the question passes judgment on them. I don't know. I want to say it goes to like 14 K.

Greg Kyte: [00:42:18] Oh, is this.

Adam Broud: [00:42:19] My first time? I'm wrong.

Greg Kyte: [00:42:20] You're not. You're your logics, right? Your actual numbers wrong. Dang it. Because. Yes, because what happened to the average score is it went so just to review. Sure. Seven when cheating is not possible. Yeah. 12 when cheating is possible. Yes. Bumped up to 15.

Adam Broud: [00:42:35] When you see someone cheat outright.

Greg Kyte: [00:42:37] Right. But then when the when the question thing went down to ten.

Adam Broud: [00:42:41] Oh, went down to ten.

Greg Kyte: [00:42:42] Down to.

Adam Broud: [00:42:43] Ten because. All the sudden people are judging the guy where they're like, Oh, he asked out loud, Dang. So maybe I made people be more honest in my thing when I asked my question.

Greg Kyte: [00:42:52] And so did Skyler. According to the research.

Adam Broud: [00:42:54] I thought I was a bad person until just now, but I'm even better than I realized. So I'm for sure better than the average person based on the the the residual effects of my dishonesty.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:05] Will you be. Here's here's my take on this whole thing. You be like, let's let's use your story because I like that story better than isn't it?

Adam Broud: [00:43:11] It was so fun. It sounds.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:12] Hysterical, but what you did is you forced everybody to be like.

Adam Broud: [00:43:17] To choose a side To pick a side.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:19] Yeah, exactly. Am I? And then immediately people are going, am I a good person or am I a bad person?

Adam Broud: [00:43:24] They're like, I'm not going to be Adam. We all just laughed at Adam's response. It seems so ridiculous to be an Adam in this situation. And that.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:31] Thing when I when I got mad at Skyler going, How dare you say out loud the thing everybody's saying in their head by saying it out loud, you're then again as an as an ad hoc social group, you're forcing people to make an internal judgment on what kind of person they.

Adam Broud: [00:43:47] Are. You know what? When I even took that test, I had the thought where I was like, Man, it'd be so easy to look at my notes. And I was like, I just announced to the class that I was going to look at my notes. I can't look at my notes at this point.

Greg Kyte: [00:43:58] Exactly. Yeah. Because you because again, you it's, it's this weird, like, counterintuitive way.

Adam Broud: [00:44:06] I said out loud the thing that everyone was thinking. Right, Right.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:09] And I'll tell you what I am feeling, but I feel like I'm keeping it together, like solid. Is it time for.

Adam Broud: [00:44:16] Seven crystals given a good thing? I think that question was the best indication that you're that you're like, I drank six, but I want another. Am I even drinking? Am I even?

Greg Kyte: [00:44:26] This isn't right. Give me I'm going to take I'm going to take my seven right now and then I'll take an eighth when we ring the bell. Because. Because, because. Listen, full disclosure. Yeah, We're Crystal and I are getting a couple's massage later, and I want a good story. Yeah, You want eight?

Adam Broud: [00:44:39] An eight massage?

Greg Kyte: [00:44:41] That's right.

Adam Broud: [00:44:41] Okay, so take ten.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:42] Dude, let me tell you.

Adam Broud: [00:44:43] 12. Oh, So I was.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:45] You were. I was there. I was. I was seven seconds ahead.

Adam Broud: [00:44:49] Of seven seconds away. But you can't be dishonest at this point. You need to be ethical.

Greg Kyte: [00:44:53] I'm going to take two in a row right at the end of the podcast. I'm spilling everywhere.

Adam Broud: [00:44:59] Oh, man. Do you think pirates had on an island and talked about ethics while.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:04] They all day long. So.

Adam Broud: [00:45:06] So if you took a third of the treasure but you had the option to take half.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:11] What would you what would you do and how would you rationalize.

Adam Broud: [00:45:14] It? Let's just be clear. I had the opportunity and I had the pressure and I also had the third one, which makes the Bermuda Triangle of.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:20] Fraud our yard. And I shall bury the treasure and put an X on my map.

Adam Broud: [00:45:27] Yo ho, yo ho, Let's all become accountants.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:30] Okay, Here's another way that Dan Ariely messed with people. Yes. So and I think it relates to what we just talked about with the the thing of. So. So you're saying we could cheat.

Adam Broud: [00:45:40] Dan, show me how do you how do you people up he did this.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:43] He said he said, okay, we're going to take this math test and okay, and you're going to do bad at it. But first, what I want you to do is he.

Adam Broud: [00:45:51] Couldn't be dishonest up front. So he's like, I'm totally pinnacle of ethics.

Greg Kyte: [00:45:56] Is like, I understand college students, mathematical.

Adam Broud: [00:45:59] Skills. He understood you're going.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:00] To be horrible at adding. But before we do that, what I'd like you to do is take a piece of paper, and I'd like you to brainstorm as many of the Ten Commandments as you can come up with. So he's like, We're going to do that first and then we're going to take them.

Adam Broud: [00:46:16] Now Thou shalt be God.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:18] So he so he hands these all out and he has them brainstorm the Ten Commandments.

Adam Broud: [00:46:22] Sure.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:22] So first off, I don't know how many times he did this, but he says, I.

Adam Broud: [00:46:26] Feel like the average person don't know much of the ten.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:29] He said he said none of the people was able to get all ten of them right, which I think that's that's I think that's surprising that none of them that none of them got I would think somebody would get.

Adam Broud: [00:46:39] All I don't think I could get them all ten I think I could religious.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:42] For a long I think I could get all ten because I'm a bad.

Adam Broud: [00:46:46] Yeah you were a pastor.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:47] I could get all ten when I'm with eight of plantation three star.

Adam Broud: [00:46:52] Now don't kill don't make any graven images. No we don't adultery.

Greg Kyte: [00:46:56] Okay Keep.

Adam Broud: [00:46:58] Don't adultery. Don't say, Oh, my God. Like I just did, right?

Greg Kyte: [00:47:02] Don't Sabbath day, Holy Sabbath day. Holy honor. Your father and mother.

Adam Broud: [00:47:07] Oh, yeah, that's right.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:08] Did we say no? No gods before me?

Adam Broud: [00:47:11] Uh, no. Well, I said the engraving image. That's a different one, right?

Greg Kyte: [00:47:14] Yeah, that's a different one.

Adam Broud: [00:47:15] Catholics. Did we.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:17] Say don't.

Adam Broud: [00:47:17] Covet? Covet?

Greg Kyte: [00:47:19] Did we say don't adultery?

Adam Broud: [00:47:20] Yeah, I said that.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:21] Did we say don't steal? Did we say don't lie?

Adam Broud: [00:47:24] Say don't murder and lie and murder. Don't know.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:26] I think we got.

Adam Broud: [00:47:27] 1011.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:29] Somehow. I can't keep track of this. So accountants out there will be able to say in the comments if we got ten or not.

Adam Broud: [00:47:35] Yeah, it was easier than it was surprising that they didn't get all ten.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:38] Dan Ariely didn't didn't allow them to work together on this. They Oh, that's a good point on their own. So they did that and then he gives them the test. Now, what do you think brainstorming the Ten Commandments did to people's cheating? Uh, because again, again, if you don't remember.

Adam Broud: [00:47:54] You're not in the right head space. They got 12 were being like their natural selves.

Greg Kyte: [00:47:59] Their natural cheating selves.

Adam Broud: [00:48:00] You bring God into the mix. Wait, wait, wait. So they had a brainstorm and then they had to take the math test?

Greg Kyte: [00:48:06] Yeah. And then they got to do. They could cheat.

Adam Broud: [00:48:08] So they had to think about like, thou shalt not lie potentially, but they didn't get all ten. So some of them didn't even realize. Well, he said some of them.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:15] Here's the other thing that was more surprising. He said some of them got zero of them. Right. And it's like, come on, thou shalt not murder. Yeah, get that one. I mean, what kind of horrible psychopaths are there? I was like, I don't know any of these. I can't even guess a good one. Like, don't kill somebody for no reason.

Adam Broud: [00:48:30] More fascinated by those people. I want them to start their own religion because if they came up with the top ten things God doesn't want them to do and murder isn't on the list, I'm fascinated at what they think God is interested in. I don't know.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:42] So what do you think? Give me a give me an answer.

Adam Broud: [00:48:44] Let's go. Ten. Let's go. Ten, ten. Ten for ten. Great. Ten out of 20.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:47] Awesome. Nope. It eliminated cheating.

Adam Broud: [00:48:49] It eliminated.

Greg Kyte: [00:48:50] Eliminated, according to Dan Ariely. And I think that that's a shocking A. Are we done taking? Do we have another one? Okay. Bummer. Um. So that finding is so surprising that it eliminated cheating. I have a hard time believing Dan Ariely that that's the case. But he reports that it eliminated cheating.

Adam Broud: [00:49:09] That I want to know, but I want to know his religious background before I believe that completely.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:14] That's crazy. He grew up in Israel, so I'm assuming he's a he's of the Jewish persuasion.

Adam Broud: [00:49:19] Did we already talk about biases or not?

Greg Kyte: [00:49:21] No, but. Okay.

Adam Broud: [00:49:22] Interesting. Let's talk.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:24] About this. So can I tell you.

Adam Broud: [00:49:26] Because someone's professional ethics into this, Dan, I bet you did a great.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:28] Job. I've got to think that he's I mean, he's messing with people and maybe being unethical with the way he's messing with people. But I'm going to say.

Adam Broud: [00:49:35] His.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:36] Reporting, I think he's going to be ethical with his reporting. Yeah. Yeah. What he found. No, I bet.

Adam Broud: [00:49:41] He would. I mean, his whole job is on the line if we're talking social pressure. I mean, he's got more than anybody else that we've ever talked about.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:47] So here's the next Ten Commandments.

Adam Broud: [00:49:49] Yeah, let's shoot through these, because these are fascinating. Yeah. So waiting.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:52] So here's the next one. Yeah. And I'm not sure exactly how he pulled this off.

Adam Broud: [00:49:56] Yeah, this is weird.

Greg Kyte: [00:49:57] He had he had a cohort of students do this test.

Adam Broud: [00:50:00] Greg doesn't have the answers in front of me, but he has the scenarios in front of me. If anyone's wondering why. No. A little bit about this situation.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:06] And I got and because I knew I was getting I wrote the answers on my sheet but he can't see my sheet.

Adam Broud: [00:50:11] Yeah, I can't see it.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:12] I folded it in a way such that to divert his gaze from the correct answers.

Adam Broud: [00:50:17] I did see a peak at one point and I promptly looked away before I could understand what was written there. Because I'm an ethical person. Look at you.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:24] Dude. Transparency.

Adam Broud: [00:50:25] Transparency, CENSORED.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:26] So. So the next thing he did is he had a group of of a cohort that was all atheists.

Adam Broud: [00:50:33] Like he was all atheists.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:35] I'm looking for a group of students and he.

Adam Broud: [00:50:36] Damned them to hell for his experiment. Dan is a terrible person. He made them audibly say they didn't believe in God.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:44] Yeah, he did. It was like, it's like you must before.

Adam Broud: [00:50:46] Anyone gets upset if they're not religious. I'm also an atheist. But at the same time, if you're a Christian, that's the worst thing.

Greg Kyte: [00:50:52] He he's like, deny Christ and they do it and it's like, You're in so good.

Adam Broud: [00:50:56] Let's run an experiment on you guys. You're lost already. And then what We.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:00] Want after they're in. Sure. He says, before we take this math test, I need you to swear on this Bible. Swear on the Bible.

Adam Broud: [00:51:07] Don't believe. It's just.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:08] No, no, no, no, no, no. Swear on the Bible that you won't cheat. Just, like, swear on this Bible that you won't cheat. And then he had him take the test. What happened to what happened to their scores?

Adam Broud: [00:51:16] I bet it went down still, because in that scenario, at least for me, I would be like, okay, this book means nothing to me. But at the same time, me looking into your eyes and promising something, oh, but the punk rock version of Adam would be like, I'm going to cheat so much more to prove you.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:31] Wrong, right?

Adam Broud: [00:51:32] Oh, my God. I'm going to say it went down to five.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:36] No, that would be amazing. It went to seven, which is the same as when cheating Was it eliminated? Cheating?

Adam Broud: [00:51:43] It eliminated it.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:44] Completely. Yeah, Well, but. But listen.

Adam Broud: [00:51:45] God is the.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:46] Scariest. Your thoughts are going wrong.

Adam Broud: [00:51:49] Because remember.

Greg Kyte: [00:51:50] Because you said it would go down to five. Sure. Which means that the average score when you weren't cheating was seven. And the atheists are just dumber at math and got a five.

Adam Broud: [00:52:00] I didn't understand anything you just said, but keep going then.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:02] So what happened is that basically do you understand that eliminated cheating?

Adam Broud: [00:52:06] Yes, it eliminated cheating, which it stopped, which is so weird. Oh. Oh, I get what you say. Yeah, the average is seven, so I was like, atheist probably became idiots as soon as they touched the Bible.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:16] I got to do ten. I'm going to ten just because ten out of ten, ten commandments, one.

Adam Broud: [00:52:21] Per commandment, one for all of them. Okay, I get what you're saying. This might be a horrible seven. Where did it go? And it went Oh, so it went to seven. So it.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:31] Eliminated.

Adam Broud: [00:52:32] Cheating. Man, my brain is just like having a great time.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:35] That's okay. But you're helping people because I think there are people listening to this podcast who take with us.

Adam Broud: [00:52:41] Oh, so you're.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:42] Helping them. At the very least, they're thinking.

Adam Broud: [00:52:44] Like, I don't remember what the true average was, which was seven.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:47] The downside is those people have to take a short quiz. About this podcast and credit.

Adam Broud: [00:52:53] Cheat on it and they can't.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:54] Cheat on it. No.

Adam Broud: [00:52:55] Bummer. Guys, you can't even cheat.

Greg Kyte: [00:52:57] Here's here's my here's my commentary on the atheist thing. Yeah is this. Yes. Is that I would have thought because atheists are CENSOREDs. I'm an atheist and most of them are like are like, screwed up. Screw God. I'll just. I'm going to do everything I can to be like, a jerk to God. So they'd be like, You just made me.

Adam Broud: [00:53:19] Worship numbers at this point. You.

Greg Kyte: [00:53:21] You made me. You made me swear on a Bible, even though you knew I was an atheist. That makes me so mad. I'm going to cheat all the way. But they didn't. It forced. It didn't force him. It. They. They. It eliminated cheating.

Adam Broud: [00:53:34] Let me. I would assume it'd make you nicer where you're like, I get with this because I'll be honest, the assumption that all atheists are equals I think frequently is true in the sense of like them pushing an agenda. Somehow people think that they're going to like deconvert from Christianity or being a muslim or whatever it is that you adhere to, and you're going to think you're going to become this person who's like, And now I have no biases, you freaking idiot. Instead, I would assume I would try to be nicer to that person where I'd be like, Oh, you as a human individual, I'm going to try to help you out. No, that's stupid too. What happened? Just tell me what happened. I can't think about anything clearly. I don't know what happened. Awesome.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:14] Here's the next scenario.

Adam Broud: [00:54:17] So atheists didn't cheat.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:19] Okay, so, Adam, one last scenario I want to talk about with you is this one is good old Dan Ariely's. He had people come in to his test and he had them. He had them. He said this the math test you are about to take. Yeah. Falls under the purview of the MIT, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Code of Ethical Conduct. Yes. And he gave him a.

Adam Broud: [00:54:49] Paper, MIT, where math is important.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:52] And he said, here, here's a.

Adam Broud: [00:54:53] Here's math is true. That's what MIT stands for.

Greg Kyte: [00:54:56] Here's a document that says that you understand that this that this math quiz falls under the purview of the MIT code of conduct. And I need you to sign that. You understand that? Yeah.

Adam Broud: [00:55:07] Sign it. Oh, you have to sign it. You have to sign your name. Okay. I believe that math is true. And I love all things that are math and.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:14] And they signed it. Yes. And then what? And then they took the test. What happened to cheating when they signed the MIT code of conduct?

Adam Broud: [00:55:21] I think they I want to say it eliminated. It did.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:25] Because you're good at pattern recognition.

Adam Broud: [00:55:27] It absolutely no, just because I think when it comes to God, people are really just recognizing an authority figure and MIT is equal to God when it comes to engineers.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:39] Okay. It did.

Adam Broud: [00:55:40] It eliminated any interview I was ever in as an HR person. If you said MIT was in your background, people expected you to treat it as if they were like, I saw God, you should hire me.

Greg Kyte: [00:55:52] I am. I am.

Adam Broud: [00:55:54] I'm. It eliminated it. It eliminated. The authority figure is like an interesting piece. So I guess for ethics, if you are accountable to another person who can be viewed as some sort of point of authority to you. So maybe instead of you influencing them because we already learned that the social influence is something that's going to bring you, well, really, you're going to like convert to the social influence. But if you have someone who will not convert to you, instead they are going to hold influence over you. Then you will become more ethical because you are adherent to the rules that they give rather than them being here adherent to the rules that they give you. So therefore, accountants make sure you got like a little buddy who you can be like, Hey, buddy, we're going to you're my little ethics pal, right? You're my ethics. You're my ethics. My ethics, pal.

Speaker4: [00:56:37] These are the ethics fairy that's gonna whisper in my ear and say, Be ethical.

Adam Broud: [00:56:41] Yeah. And you can have, like, a buddy who's like, somehow or. I mean, obviously, like, an authority figure or I guess you guys probably. I don't know about accounting, but if you've got, like, an external third party, who's going to review your work or something like that, then you're probably going to be more ethical because it's they are the God that you worship. But then Mother, that's number that's one of the Ten Commandments. Have no other gods before me. You just got again, you got God again. Okay. Accounting is your religion. So here's I probably went too far at the end, but I think the rest of it stands.

Greg Kyte: [00:57:12] I here's so I can't process auditory information right now, but.

Adam Broud: [00:57:18] I nailed.

Greg Kyte: [00:57:18] It. The takeaway that I have from this and the.

Speaker5: [00:57:24] Takeaway.

Greg Kyte: [00:57:25] The Dan Ariely had from this was that you need to have an authentic reflection.

Adam Broud: [00:57:31] Yes.

Greg Kyte: [00:57:32] On a moral code. And it kind of doesn't matter what that moral code is, because atheists reflected on the moral code of don't, of swearing on a Bible.

Adam Broud: [00:57:39] Oh, that's beautiful.

Greg Kyte: [00:57:40] And if you have an.

Adam Broud: [00:57:41] Authentic reflection on your moral, Oh, I love that.

Greg Kyte: [00:57:43] Then it like, puts this. Okay. Did you see The Incredibles? Yes. Do you remember Violet?

Adam Broud: [00:57:48] Oh, yeah.

Greg Kyte: [00:57:49] She was awesome.

Adam Broud: [00:57:50] She could turn invisible, and she could also put a force field force field around herself. I don't know how those two things are related, but she could do both.

Greg Kyte: [00:57:57] It's cool. And that's the thing. If you have an honest reflection on a moral code, you have an ethical violet style force field around you for a finite period of time where you where you're not going to do unethical stuff. If you have an honest reflection on a moral code is what happens now.

Adam Broud: [00:58:14] Adam did not need Violet for that circumstance, but I love that you used it Anyway.

Greg Kyte: [00:58:19] Here's a here, here's a here's a pull quote. From the AICPA Code of Professional Conduct. It says the.

Adam Broud: [00:58:26] Icp, the Insane Clown Posse of Ethics. Please hit me with that.

Greg Kyte: [00:58:30] It says that the CPAs should perform their professional duties with the highest sense of integrity. Good luck. Does that mean Do you believe we've. I think we said this on the last podcast. You believe that that means that accountants are supposed to be morally perfect? Yes or.

Adam Broud: [00:58:48] No? No, they can't be. I need to set themselves up in. Oh, you said. But you said yes. I said yes. You need to surround them stuffs with things, surround themselves with stuffs that will make them so.

Greg Kyte: [00:58:58] No you can't you don't have a do over as an account. You steal money from your company. You can't be like, Oh, I had a bad day.

Adam Broud: [00:59:05] That's a good point. You got to be perfect, guys.

Greg Kyte: [00:59:07] You can't be like these gals, these fraudulent financial statements. I just I just you know, I was. I was off. You can't. You don't get a mulligan on ethics. So, yeah, we're supposed to be morally perfect as accountants. And here's.

Adam Broud: [00:59:23] Some ways that you can.

Greg Kyte: [00:59:24] Know. It doesn't.

Adam Broud: [00:59:26] Matter.

Greg Kyte: [00:59:26] Not because you said you just listen. I said, do you have to be morally, ethically as an accountant?

Adam Broud: [00:59:31] Tell me what I'm supposed to say. No, no, no.

Greg Kyte: [00:59:33] You said what you were supposed to say because you're perfect. You. I said, Are you supposed to be morally perfect as an accountant? You said no. I said yes. It doesn't matter what you say. What you just did is you had an authentic reflection on a CENSORED moral code. And so right now you've got violet, you've got a violet style ethics force field around you, and you can do no wrong. I'd done go forth and be ethical.

Adam Broud: [01:00:02] I don't mean got. You're a beautiful person. I feel so good right now. Okay. Even though you screamed, I bet a bunch of people are terrified. But they are good. That was motivational for me. Okay.

Greg Kyte: [01:00:12] But that's it, guys. That's it. That's it for ethics. Thank you so much for tuning in. We've got four of these podcasts. I would encourage you to listen to all four because they're all amazing and they get even more amazing. The kicker Adam and I get. CENSORED