082 | Alice Bidini | Bringing Non-Alc Cocktail Culture to Saudi Arabia | Four Seasons Riyadh

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, we dive into the complexities and innovations within the non-alcoholic beverage industry.

Joined by guest Alice Bidini, we explore the challenges and strategies of introducing new drink trends in emerging markets such as Saudi Arabia.

We discuss the importance of understanding local taste profiles and consumer behavior, especially in culturally diverse regions like Stockholm and Riyadh.

Highlights include our experiences in the evolving bar scene, the innovative concept of a female-only staffed bar at the Four Seasons in Riyadh, and the cultural shift needed to accept new beverage trends.

Alice shares her journey of pioneering drink trends, shedding light on building consumer trust and adapting to local preferences.

Tune in to learn about reshaping traditional beverage offerings and the satisfaction of turning hesitant consumers into loyal patrons.

00:00 Welcome and Introduction

00:28 Managing Expectations in the Bar Industry

03:44 The Bar Scene in Saudi Arabia

06:45 Challenges of Non-Alcoholic Spirits

10:53 Consumer Behavior and Marketing

13:28 Dining and Drinking Culture in Saudi Arabia

15:03 Creating a New Beverage Culture

15:25 The Italian Espresso Bar Experience in Stockholm

17:28 Introducing Aperol Spritz in Prague

18:39 Navigating Local Drinking Cultures

19:37 The Role of Experts in Riyadh's Cocktail Scene

22:00 Trends in the Bar Industry

23:36 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Alice Bidini

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Alice Bidini

Bar Manager | Four Seasons Riyadh

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

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episode transcripts.
Now let's dive into today's

episode.
It's very interesting because

it's also like about managing
expectations.

Now to clarify, because I speak
about this kind of topics a lot.

And on one side it's like it's
managing expectation for you as

a head bartender, bar manager,
because maybe an owner is like,

I want to open an Italian
restaurant.

I want to bring Italian culture
360 degrees.

So I want to push the Negroni
out there, the non alcoholic

Negroni out there.
But at the same time, it's like,

OK, it's accommodating the, the,
the taste profile of the locals.

But also like you, you can sneak
in a Negroni eventually.

You just have to bear in mind
what you rap against.

You know, in the sense that it's
a long shot.

Maybe in 10 years, people will
drink Negroni, not alcoholic

Negroni.
And it would be a popular thing,

but not now, like when I lived
in Stockholm, for example, my my

friend Salvadore Napolitano, we
used to go out and drink

Americanos, you know, as a
cocktail.

We were drinking Americano
because it was cheaper than a

macaroni, because in Sweden you
pay every single alcohol

separately.
And but back then, and I always

say this, I'll give this example
because everybody thinks that

macaroni is popular all over the
place now.

But.
Ten years, 15 years ago in

Stockholm, people were giving me
a coffee when I order an

Americano in hotel bars, fancy
cocktail bars, the best places

in the city were giving me a
bloody coffee.

And, and it, it's so interesting
because it's a long journey not

to, to really say, let's take
this bottle, but let's put it on

the back burner and let's push
it on parallel with

accommodating the taste profile,
which is what you're saying now,

because I always give this
example of apparel and select as

a Sprint.
If I am given select as an

alternative to Aperol without
being explained what it means, I

may not like it because it's
less, it's less sweet, there's

more alcohol in it.
So I may not like it as an

experience.
But if you don't like the sugar

element of the spirits with
Aperol, let me give you

something that you will like.
So for example, a way I'm, I'm

just thinking out loud, like a
way to sell the Negroni on

alcoholic would be if you like
coffee, I'm assuming you like

coffee because, you know,
everybody likes coffee here.

But if you're looking for bitter
experience that resembles the

coffee experience with your
drink, let me suggest a Negroni

to you.
But if the waiter doesn't say

anything and it's just like, oh,
Negroni.

Yeah.
Negroni.

Yeah.
Here we go.

Mr. or Missus bartender is the
order.

Then you get it back, you know,
So it's very interesting.

Like how managing expectations
play a role in serving people in

the hospitality and building
brands because then people may

push back a brand because like
this brand doesn't work and all

we don't do.
Negroni yes, it's very

interesting to have this kind of
conversation because it brings

you different kind of
perspectives on one single issue

and how to solve it in different
ways.

So first of all, like you, you
mentioned about you know like

bartender community there in
Saudi is very small field now.

So who are these pioneers of the
bar scene in Saudi?

Very small amount of Italians.
The biggest part of the

community is Lebanese because
they are the holy Arabi speakers

that have a closer culture to us
that they they are quite

European, quite European as as a
background culture, but they are

still in Arabic country.
That's super interesting and

they can build a bridge between
the people that don't know

anything about the cocktails and
and people that learned to work

with alcohol beverages.
It's something that I, I don't

know.
I mean, it's still, it's still

very, very early to say that we
can see the results I think in

the next 3-4 years.
But for the moment, yes, I mean

only few Italians and not a lot
of women.

Follow up questions.
So tell me, tell me about you,

because I I heard something like
what you can say about the bar

you're you're opening with the
four season, the things that you

can disclose still as I was.
Saying to you, we're going to

open this Tonic Bar is the name
that it will be the Neo bar in

the in the hotel for the rehab
property for season and it will

be like the main part of the
hotel.

So the main various point of
detail is something that I

cannot disclose a lot.
But what I can say to you is

that you will be the first bar
to have completely only famous

stuff.
So it's meaning that only ladies

can work in Tonic Bar and this
is part of a renovation project

not only for the property but to
follow the main spirits of

renovation that there is
culturally wise now here in

Saudi.
So the property decided that we

will be part of this kind of
renovation hiring holy lady at

the bar.
Now at the moment it's the same

thing that we are currently
doing in the new lounge.

We hope that in the hotel where
the bottle will be located and

that lounge is already open and
you can you can see Holy Lady's

working.
That's very interesting.

And if you're still having some
opening, like, you know, it's

for all the listeners out there
that you know, girls in the bar

scene, you know, and want to
experience something probably

like, you know, you can, they
can beg and reach out to you

later on.
Oh for sure.

Yeah.
So basically, I mean special and

peculiar is the situation.
It's like niche on a niche.

So a non alcoholic bar that is
not common at all.

So keep getting an alcoholic
bar.

Female only.
Female only means not only for a

female guest, but female only
behind bar.

I guess it must be, you know,
tough to recruit people, but

it's a great challenge and it
makes you think from a totally

different perspective how to
create cocktails that are not

having alcohol in it.
We have different kind of

challenges here in Saudi on a
technical side also because

basically working with non
alcoholic world with non

alcoholic spirits forces you to
revise your boundaries and to

revise your limit and to revise
your mindset and the way you

think a drink itself.
Talking about challenges, let's

say that on a technical side,
for sure on alcoholic spirits

has not all the aromatic enzymes
and portfolio, let's say that a

regular and alcoholic spirit
has.

So it's meaning that the texture
it will be completely different.

One of the most important parts
that you have to hannonize when

you build and when you construct
non alcoholic drinks is the

delusion because being the
alcohol and a regular spirits

alcoholic.
So alcohol is a solvent is

meaning that the reaction with
the highs is completely

different compared to a non
alcoholic spirit that of course

is not a solvent.
So the solution that you would

have at the hand will be
completed.

So basically the delusion can be
your best friend in this case or

your worst enemy.
Because if on the other side you

don't have a big delusion in the
beginning because of the solvent

things on the other side you
have to consider another aspect.

And as we were saying, another
alcoholic spirit as not like the

structure in terms of enzymes,
also a regular spirit.

So it's meaning that the taste
would be completely different.

It's meaning that as not the
same strength and that when

you're going to mix the non
alcoholic spirits on the

majority of them with other
ingredients, often the flavor

can be either too sour due to
the process of production

process or the non alcoholic
spirits either tall flame

because of the structure they
have.

These two are the biggest
challenge when you work with non

alcoholic spirits.
So you help to be able to

rebalance completely a spirit
with other ingredients and the

flavor.
Plus you have to play a lot with

the delusional.
For example, when you mix a run

can be aged or can be white.
It doesn't matter.

With mango juice you have in
your mouth a particular kind of

match, so you can feel the
strain of the spirit.

This is something that of course
is depending on the brand and

depending on the on the Heskey
or the particular one.

This is something that can not
happen, might not happen with

the no alcoholic spirits.
Mango juice is quite strongly

flavour, If you match it with an
alcoholic spirits that is not

really strong, the flavour will
come.

We've completely disappear.
This is quite challenging for

us.
So how to balance an alcoholic

spirits with the harder flavour?
What comes to my mind is that

the bigger players are like, you
know, the brands that are

focusing on non alcohol, are
they doing that kind of like

trainings, for example, in that
on that sphere or or it's

something that is still not
really looked into by brands.

So if I'm having a brand
training to the team from a

brand perspective, if I'm a
brand ambassador and I come

there to speak to you and your
team, do they speak about these

things or not?
Not all of them because the

market here in Saudi Arabia is
still quite new.

Some of the people that are
behind like the distributor

chain.
OK, so.

They still are not so, so much
into that we have to call up to

wait the brand ambassador from a
pro to common and those kind of

trainings is something that for
most of them, not all of them,

but for most of them is
something that you cannot still

find.
And you previously said that

when it comes to ordering, like,
you know, like the big role is

played by the wait staff for the
bartender, you know, depending

where they're sitting.
But in Europe and in the rest of

the world, I mean the US like
this, there's a lot of emphasis

of especially big brands on
cocktail menu.

Now I want to be on the cocktail
menu, I want to be mentioned

there and so on.
When the bottleneck is actually

even at an earlier stage, from
what I'm hearing from you, do

people in Saudi read the menus
or they just like don't care

because they would default back
to to coffee and salt and a?

100% the young generation now
can be a bit more curious about

that, but as I said, the the
easiest way to move and to

direct and to convey a guest
onto your drink list is the

bartender and the waiter is the
suggestion or this is something

that you really fresh in here.
Anything that has been posted on

social media, a lot of people,
they come with a picture of the

drink and say how I want this
because somebody has posted and

then 90% of the time they don't
even ask what is inside the

drink.
That's crazy.

And this is like from a previous
experience in that bar, or even

from Europe or from other
countries or?

It doesn't work.
This is something that I

experienced only here in Saudi
because as we were mentioning,

having them not clue what is a
drinking experience outside the

coffee world.
They rely on marketing, they

rely on pictures on Instagram,
they relying on what is visually

appear.
So if you want to sell a drink,

be sure that is visually
appealing.

This is super fascinating.
And going back to what we were

saying about, you know, Japanese
food or Chinese food, like when

you go on menus and you go to
Japan and you see the photo of

how it looks like otherwise I
have no idea what I'm ordering.

So OK, it's.
Exactly what I was about to tell

you.
This is the reason why here also

in fashion the menus with the
picture.

This is something that we won't
have in the bar for the drinks

we won't have here as a first
season because of course it's

not a standard, but it's really,
really, really common to have

here even in fine dinings, even
if it's starting to to decrease,

to find many pictures.
That's crazy.

And we spoke about that.
Let's say that the regular

target occasion, what I call the
target occasion, it's coffee

now.
But then what about the the rest

of hospitality, like the bar
scene, the restaurant scene?

So I usually, you know, bars
inside hotels or do you have

also like restaurants that are
stand alone kind of restaurants

How it is because I've never
been through to Riyadh.

It's it's a pretty regular and
normal country so you have find

any restaurants.
It's not so common to find

places when you can eat chick.
Mostly of the restaurant that

you can find here in Saudi.
Fine Danny.

Restaurants or fast food.
There is not really something in

between.
If you hold one to have

something light up with neck you
usually go to cafes coffee shop

like Starbucks style just to
have a small bite or something.

There is nothing something in
between fast food or five star

hotel or fine Danny.
Is it similar to to to Dubai in

that sense?
Quite similar, yeah.

Because when I walked there,
like, it was very similar, like,

you know, like you either have
the coffee place with sand, the

cheese and small salads and
stuff, or you go to a restaurant

and then you'll get knocked
down.

Yeah.
But it's it's made on purpose.

And so people would order in a
restaurant, they would what?

What would they order as a
standard to drink with

Coca-Cola?
This will be the basic.

That's why we are trying to to
really create a beverage

standard.
It will be long because it's

like introducing something like
the Japanese restaurant in the

Rome or Milan.
It's like introducing something

that is not some that that is
not part of your culture.

So.
It's still something new, so we

are creating this standard
beverage here.

But that's super fascinating
because it reminds me again,

when I was back in Stockholm,
there used to be this place

called Sosta Cafe.
It was like a typical Italian.

They were calling it espresso
Bar, which of course doesn't

exist in Italy.
But the Super interesting thing

was that, you know, they open
and it was like no chair.

So they were like, I think 3
high tables.

I used to spend all my time
there like my, my best friends.

I met them there, I made friends
there and then so on.

But they were telling me how it
all started, you know, and it

was this is normal bar in like
an Italian bar basically with

sandwiches and you know, Piadina
and tamizzini and so on.

But they were telling me that
when they opened for like I

don't know if it was like 3 or 6
months as I remember it was

totally empty, you know, and
people would eye so there were

no chairs so you couldn't sit
and drink the coffee.

You would just to go.
But it was super cheap back

then.
I think it was like 20 Swedish

crowns, which is like €2.00,
which was nothing, you know.

So they, the concept was very
similar to an Italian

experience.
But when I lived there there was

a queue, you know, if you went
at the wrong time of the day,

there would be a queue outside.
Because of course, like Swedish

people wouldn't do the Italian
way, like all rushing to the bar

shouting and ordering espresso.
You know, they would go as a

lion and then it would be
cappuccino, latte and so on.

But it was super interesting
because what they told me was

that for three, six months we
were thinking of closing because

people were like looking inside,
checking things.

They had no idea what to do
there.

We couldn't explain what to do,
you know, like it was like, what

am I supposed to do in this
place?

Is it like a boutique was in a
fancy neighborhood fancy.

And so it was like, what am I
supposed to do that?

You know, do they do they sell
bags?

Do they sell?
Sure.

You know, what do they sell
here?

And so it's so fascinating for
me when you're really up for

creating something totally new
that is changing the local

culture.
If I, I think back, back in the

days here when I started going
out here in Prague, you know, I

remember ordering a spritz with
my friend in the one of the best

cocktail bars.
It was back then, it was a

traitors, it was me and my
friend with this orange drink.

And I remember all the eyes on
me, you know, looking like, who

the hell is this guy drinking
this?

What?
He's what did he drink?

What the hell is he drinking?
Because people were drinking all

other things.
And then Fast forward after like

2 years, my mother-in-law
drinking spirits with her

friends.
So it's like, you know, how a

trend can actually really reach
the scale through the right

distribution, through the right
serve and things.

But you know, sometimes it's
like picking the battle now that

it's worth fighting.
We can consider you as a

pioneer.
I was a pioneer of the spritz in

Prague big time, you know, like,
and, and it was crazy.

I, I will never forget that
night.

All these big guys, you know,
hockey players loaded and me

like, what the hell is this guy?
And then in the end, like, you

know, like now everybody's
sipping spritz is none, you

know, So it's so fascinating,
like how you can create trends

by acknowledging the local
culture.

Have to do that because in the
end it's, it's very similar

year.
Like with beer.

If you go to the average Czech
pub, it's only beer.

Then they may have some spirits,
but they will have them as

shots.
They will not have them as a

regular cocktail.
Then you go to cocktail bars,

which are growing and growing.
And the scene here is, is is

beautiful, but it's still not
the regular one.

Also, it's it's interesting like
how you can bring something to a

certain scale that people can
find elsewhere.

But of course, it's places like
the fourth season will be that,

you know, will make a difference
in a country.

I completely got your point and
I can tell you but we'll see how

it's going to be.
But for sure you will have a

different kind of endorsement as
well from their company rather

than a stand alone.
There are there are other

things, other kind of forces
that you have to deal with.

It is very structure, something
that in a stand alone you cannot

find for example.
What role do expats play in

Riyadh now?
Because I'm assuming, you know,

like when you go to places, I
mean there would be also like

expats that know the cocktail
culture from previous

experiences.
Do the locals look to to the the

expats as a like to to gain more
trends and say, OK, like I sit

at the bar, I don't know, with
my wife and I'm ordering 2

cocktails and and then people
will come and see, OK, what is

he drinking?
Like I want to have the same.

Partially, let's say.
As I said they like everything

that he's visually feeling so if
they found something nice on the

other table they say OK I like
this because it's yellow I want

that bring me the drinks.
They they are not interested in

knowing what is inside or not.
Sometimes it happened that they

just take a picture and then
send the drinks back without

even touch it.
So they they still pay for it.

They pay for the picture just to
just to to record the experience

for them.
It's an experience.

It's not something that you are
enjoying.

That's why, that's why I'm
telling you that the the culture

hits different opposite.
It must make it really hard for

you from a professional
standpoint because you put all

the passion and all the love and
care and then you see like you,

you know, it must be that some
days you feel like you're

fighting the windmills.
No, like the donkey shot there.

This is is perfectly
understandable because as I

said, it's just a completely
different culture.

So we are growing together in
this.

I don't want to over romanticize
it, but it must be very

interesting as well.
You know, from from that

perspective, because it's really
like 1 by 1 is like I always

talk about bottom up and
building consumer 1 by 1.

You know, listeners to my vodkas
1 by 1.

It's like if you manage to get
someone that would have sent the

drink back to actually taste it
and like it and order it next

time.
Like it must be super and

reaching for you now to say like
I made it.

If you want to look on a
positive side, yes, for sure.

The thing is that thanks God
this, these things are not

really happening anymore.
Slowly this thing is

disappearing.
This is quite good because it's

meaning that so far a good job
has been done.

In general, like from your
previous experience also in

other places, you know, like how
do trends work in bars?

Does it happen bottom up or top
down?

What I mean is that, you know,
I'm a big advocate of the kind

of like lower ranks within the
bar.

No, it's usually younger people,
they are more outgoing than the

managers or so on.
And so do you feel that not, not

in Saudi now specifically, but
in general, like do do you think

that trends are happening bottom
up in the sense that maybe like

the younger ones in the team,
the new world members of the

team, like they bring some
knowledge to that bar?

Or do you think that in the bar
world in general, there's more

still kind of like hierarchy?
And it's like the bar manager

sets the throne and you do what
I tell you, and I decide which

brands we're going to have and
you know what we're going to do.

Fortunately, yes, I think it's
going to happen like that.

If you're talking about trends
on a perspective on a cultural

perspective, so not sticky
related to to the bar industry.

I think that is something like a
bottom up, as you say, rumours

spreading the voice.
Well, I drink that new well,

like it happened for the help of
the splits as well.

Regardless the big, the massive
marketing campaign that has been

has been done.
I think that the trends are

working at that, with me
referring friends, what I like

and spreading voice and that's
it.

So I'm aware of your time.
We went quite long over the set

time but it was a fantastic chat
and I'm sure we will.

Likewise.
More especially when you open.

Maybe hopefully at some point I
will manage to come to see you

in React.
For sure I would be great to

host you.
Or maybe we'll meet in Rome on

free time going back home at
some point.

Anywhere else in the world that
this place nobody knows.

Exactly, the world is small and
let us know how can people find

you on social media or LinkedIn
or Instagram or whatever like

you or a new bar that's going to
open at at the four season in

Riyadh.
So the profile for the bar is

still not open because as I
said, it's still under

construction.
But as soon as the profile for

the bar will be open for sure,
we're going to contact you for

that.
And regarding myself on

Instagram is very easy one.
You can just type my name so

Alicia Bidini or with the
nickname that is Alicia dot.

SO Zot very easy to find and I
think that is only me with that

particular nickname.
So she's quite easy to

understand on Facebook also, I
mean with my name and surname,

so quite easy.
Fantastic.

If you follow me, you know you
will find when you put Alicia, I

think it would be the first name
that pops up as a neutral,

neutral connection.
So it will be.

It will be.
It will be, it will be a play

here.
Does anybody have some questions

related to the non alcoholic
experience or Saudi market or

whatever?
I mean more than welcome to to

help to clarify.
Fantastic, fantastic.

Thanks a lot Alicia for your
insights in in this trending new

new markets.
Thanks a lot for the chance.

Thanks a lot.
Goodbye.

That's all for today's My Third
Drinks podcast.

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