Dan and Pia explore the three Cs needed for success: clarity, climate and competence with the help of Dr Jessica Tonissen.
Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:06] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:15] Dan: And Pia Lee we have a new season. We're here for season two.
[00:00:20] Pia: Oh, I'm so happy. I was missing. I was missing doing these with you and had meeting all our wonderful guests. We've got, uh, got a bit of a ripper of a season, two lined up. Haven't we.
[00:00:32] Dan: we really have, it's been great to be able to go out with a season under our belts, if you like and send the links to people and get, have, and bring in some new guests. And we've got quite a range of amazing people to share with that.
[00:00:47] Pia: Oh, wait. I believe there's a Senator in there. Maybe a firefighter, quite a variety. It's
[00:00:54] Dan: amazing group of people who will take as we always do, allow them to take their own unique view on these mysterious groups that we sometimes call teams. I can't wait to meet them all and share their thinking.
[00:01:06] Pia: And sometimes it's quite useful. Isn't it to sort of look back over that season that we did and look at the current themes and a way that we thought about doing that was bringing to the fore, these three Cs these conditions the teams and team leaders need to create success.
[00:01:28] Dan: And we've mentioned that I think through season one and they're always in the back of our minds, but these, yeah, as you say, these three conditions, three Cs are the conditions for team success. So they are clarity, climate and competence.
[00:01:40] And clarity is obviously where we start. People think we do it really well. We tend not to do it that well, but that is the why we're here. What we're trying to achieve, how are we going to get there? And who's going to do what, um, piece of it. And that obviously is a sort of cornerstone isn't it? That we often come back to that place to make sure we're all aligned and obviously an essential part of teamwork.
[00:02:01] Pia: Then the clarity bit takes work. And quite often, if you're not doing the work, it plays into the next condition, which is climate. And that's got, you know, two parts. Structures systems, how we organize ourselves, and processes, but it's also the softer stuff. And I hate using that word because it sort of implies that it's less important. It is as important if not more important and particularly, you know, we all the challenges that we're going to be facing in 2022 and bringing our teams forward. So it's looking at the. Psychological safety. it's looking at culture, it's looking at the example of the behaviors that exist within the teams.
[00:02:43] So that's really key. And I think that's going to be interesting to look at that when we look at season one, because a lot of the people that we spoke to really talked about that.
[00:02:52] Dan: Yeah, they did. It's, it's almost what it feels like to be in, you know, the smell of the place where it feels like to be in the team as the climate, isn't it. And the glue that holds it together. And your point about the soft stuff is really interesting. I remember hearing the CEO of Schneider electric, Leonardo, Philodoria saying the soft stuff is the hard stuff and I, I really love that expression because this is the bit you have to really work on, and particularly as we look into this coming year full of challenge,
[00:03:17] And the final condition, which will build that climate is competence. So we had clarity climate, and then competence, and this really falls into these parts of knowledge and skills. And behaviors and attitudes. So this is really competence it's about the individuals within the team. the, How they contribute to being in that team. So, yeah, knowledge and skills and behaviors and attitudes. And again, some of our guests really touched on some of those, particularly the, some surprising ones that are needed these days, that you may not even be aware is a skill.
[00:03:50] Pia: And I think, when we launched Squadify we partnered up with London school of economics who did some research on the three Cs, and what I found the most fascinating out of it was that it is clarity how clear you are, what and why you're trying to achieve something. And then the climate, the environment that enables you, those two are the key drivers of performance. Not competence. So you can have an individual rock Stein was slightly seduced by bringing in the most cleverest people into our teams, but actually it doesn't create a collectively clever team that doesn't necessarily go. And it's the clarity and the climate that makes a huge difference. So that's been a real, and I've seen that play out with the work that we do in Squadify again and again.
[00:04:42] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, those three Cs, all of them importance, but it's so interesting to hear that as we sort of suspected from our experience that, that it's, those two clarity climate competence is really going to drive your performance and build a team, not just a group of individuals, and so we're going to review the series and to help us to do so, we're going to bring back Dr Jess Thompson, who was a guest on the very, very popular episode about psychological safety. We're going to have her and have a little conversation around the fireside looking back over season one.
[00:05:13] Pia: Hey, Jess, it is wonderful to have you back
[00:05:21] Jess: Thank you payer. Thank you for having me back. I'm really pleased to be
[00:05:24] Pia: so exciting. So, and there's a bit of a different format. So, you know, we'll, we'll, we've, we've got a bit of a review here as we set ourselves up for 2022. We're looking at season one and we're really looking at it from, uh, from the three Cs so we've going to really articulate what these Three conditions are clarity, climate and competence. And, um, and it helps because they're actually an alphabetical order. A I N O just in case, in case there's any confusion out there. Um, so let's start with clarity. And let's go straight to that. There was a big piece
[00:06:02] when we were, when we were looking in season one about what we are doing in terms of the task, what we're trying to do. So I think Anna really articulated this really well. So let's, let's listen to Anna Britney guests talking about the watt for
[00:06:21] Anna: I think salespeople do want to collaborate. They do want to build those relationships with their peers, but very often they're very geographically dispersed. They rarely get together in person. And when they do get together, Um, in sales calls and so on, there's not really a lot of opportunity always built in to really get to know each other and really collaborate.
[00:06:41] So I think you're right here, precisely they are set up to work very individually. And of course the knock-on effect then for the leader is that they're not really managing a team. They're managing a bunch of individuals, all who have their own way of doing things, their own style, but particularly their own language, their own. Often evolved and intuitive way of doing things.
[00:07:07] Dan: So this really hits home for me, because I think if you think about what a team is, it's a group of more than more than one person with a shared goal and interdependency in, in, in delivering on that goal. And that, that goal, I think, and it talks about in sales teams is often just not even actually a shared goal, it's individual goals that add up, which was really a subtle thing. But I think that's the point of unity that she pointed us to that that really starts to build a team from those people.
[00:07:34] Jess, what's the psychological aspect here? What, what, why do we need goals in the first place?
[00:07:38] Jess: Yeah, it's interesting, Dan. And I was actually very pleased to know that there's some good science behind this cause I'm a big fan of clarity myself. So what we know from, from the sciences, that when we have very clear goals and things that we're working towards, that does a few things in the brain. So one of the things that it does is it, it directs our attention or circuitry. So there were, there are sort of sensory gatekeepers in the brain.
[00:07:59] If you think about how much sensory information is coming at us from outside, as well as the things that are coming to mind from within our own thoughts, there's a lot of information that we have to filter and clarity gives our brain direction around what we need to bring in and let in and bring into conscious awareness and what we need to keep out so that we can stay focused.
[00:08:17] The other thing that it does is it really taps into our kind of reward and motivation system. So if you think about the way our dopamine system works, when we have clear goals, we can see clear milestones towards those goals. And that's very real. That's intrinsically rewarding for us as we move towards those milestones, achieve those goals and get that, that kind of heat of being on the right track.
[00:08:37] So there's lots of things about clarity that our brain really loves. And I guess the flip side of that is that uncertainty is actually quite cognitively taxing. So our brain doesn't know what we should be paying attention to. It's very hard to know whether we're on the right track. And so it takes a lot of of work and it's quite uncomfortable for the brain when we're in those very unclear environment.
[00:08:55] Dan: Yeah, actually, we're experiencing this ourselves in our household where one of us has tested positive for COVID and the, the amount of uncertainty that then descends is immense. The, the mental overload is huge, trying to figure out what test works, all those things. So I can definitely relate to that. The opposite of clarity is as a real mental load.
[00:09:15] Jess: Absolutely. And you might find that you find other things hard to den, you know, you might find that it's hard to do stuff that would normally be, be easy for you because your brain is so taxed, kind of holding all of those other uncertainties at the same time.
[00:09:27] Pia: What also happened? I think we saw last year was the team needed clarity, but they didn't talk about it as a team and get that shared goal that you're talking about. Dan, instead they just doubled down on performance targets and tasks. And so there's two parts of clarity, and I think that water is very important, but also the why, and Lucy Hovanec really doubled down on this, in our conversation with her about purpose.
[00:09:55] Lucy: When we're talking about high-performing teams, I, my observation of having worked in high-performing teams and not high-performing teams is actually when you are aligned, Greater purpose, and I'm talking at a team level because you can do this process at the team level, just as much as you can do it at an individual level. Uh, but the power of doing it at that team level means there is full alignment and that people are, um, uh, really clear about why that team actually exists and what it's trying to achieve achieve together.
[00:10:23] So. You know, uh, uh, groups that would go over to Tanzania, for example, and work with the Tanzania government. I mean, there was very much an alignment of understanding that in, uh, the vision 2020, um, for cascading leadership across the country, that we were aligned to that. And our job was to unlock leadership capability across the government, through those leadership programs. Um, so I think purpose whilst that situation was individual, it absolutely can bring to life or breathed life into teams.
[00:10:50] Pia: So Jess, why is it the purpose is so important to us. I mean, that, there's a, we know the feeling. We know that it's a bit like when we're playing tennis and we hit that sweet spot and the racket, but what's actually going on inside the brain.
[00:11:06] Jess: Yeah. So purpose is really interesting. And I think that there's a couple of things, you know, purpose has a, has a personal impact, but I think it also has as an impact as a team that's perhaps in addition. So the reset around purpose is really interesting. In fact, people who have kind of high purpose in their life are shown to have lower risk of heart disease, a longer life span, even increased pain resilience. So there's some really sort of interesting physical impacts of purpose.
[00:11:31] But at a brain level, we know that if we add this kind of purpose connection to, to our direct. And to our goals, the emotional elements of the brain get involved and those elements, so parts of the brain, like the amygdala start to kind of assess how emotionally connected we are to this purpose and the higher, that emotional connection we have, then a cognitive tendency to downplay obstacles. So it feels easier to get there than it would if it was something that we weren't that invested in, and we're more resilient, so we bounce back from setback easier when we're highly connected to those goals.
[00:12:02] But I think the other thing that's playing out in teams too, is if you think about this idea and I spoke about this, when I talked about psychological safety around, we want to be part of a tribe. And the more that you can create common purpose, the more of a tribe you can create. And the more of a tribe you can create, the more that you work as a collective, which is very powerful as a group.
[00:12:21] Pia: And that's that team camaderie that team spirit, all those things that we hear about, but actually this is the science that sits behind it.
[00:12:28] Dan: And I think in our experience of working with teams, it's something that people it's fascinating, actually, that thing that would have such a cohesive force is something that is shied away from even our, we don't need to let's get on with the task. As Pia said, it's so getting away and, and really, I think looking into next year, the chance to really connect with purpose and the, and what's meaningful to people in the team is, is going to be transformational for teams as they, as they go into that year. Task is obviously important, but moving away into and looking at that purpose to get all of that lovely benefit.
[00:13:01] I other thing I think is worth mentioning in clarity is, you know, this year we also did some work looking at the Squadify dataset and it was fascinating to see how some areas of clarity were quite positive. Actually, a lot of people have believe in what they're doing, purpose down to clear goal, but when you get really down into the. You know what I think of as sharpening the pencil of clarity down into short-term objectives to meet the long-term goal that is not at w we, we, as global teams don't perform well in that area. And it's getting at the other end of, of clarity, if you like, but, in complex and fast moving times that uh that is just as essential I think, just throwing that a little bit of extra data in there.
[00:13:39] Jess: And could I add just one thing on that, Dan, as well, we've spoken about sort of self-determination theory and how, you know, the, the sort of the frame of self-determination theory in relation to the three Cs and that piece around autonomy, you know, so I think it was in the very first episode of the season that Rob said, you cannot have autonomy without clarity. And I loved that because autonomy is not just being given free reign and left in this kind of unregulated, uncertain state of not being sure what to do. Autonomy is being really clear on what you're trying to do and then having the space to do it. And I, so I think to your point around having those, you know, the sharp end of the, of the pencil around clarity that allows you to then have autonomy and to sort of make that need
[00:14:19] Pia: It's all too easy to say you know, we're either waiting for this situation that we're all in to change, or we're using that as, as a reason why we can't get that clarity seems to me, actually, it's a double down, we need to be doing more of that for our teams, because that's going to have a big impact on the next condition we're also looking at, which is climate.
[00:14:39] And what, uh, what was so interesting about season one was that we looked at teams from such a variety of perspectives. So Erik Thomson brought us on set and actually gave us a really different view of what needs to happen in that environment, in that climate to set up all the actors for success, but it's also brought about by everybody else that plays a key part in that.
[00:15:09] Erik: Well, I think it's, there's nothing uh, more useful than just like a, pre-shoot get together few snags on a body and a couple of beers, you know, it's not about the alcohol. It's not, not about getting off your net or anything. It's, you know, I've worked on productions. It's about actually getting people together to break through that initial layer of anxiety or apprehension, social awkwardness, and the best way to do that is away from the working environment if you can.
[00:15:36] I did a production in New Zealand called 800 Words and that neither the network, nor the company that I worked for saw the value, the dollar value. Having appreciate drinks. They couldn't see it because it wasn't in the budget. So I had it in my house and got everyone together and it was such a great way to start the whole production because we got to know each other. And then when we rocked up on set on, on Monday, we'd already busted through those initial anxieties.
[00:16:03] Dan: I think it's worth saying for any non Australian listeners that are snag on a barbie is a sausage on a barbecue. just worth it. with a little bit of a glossary of terms there.
[00:16:12] Pia: It's not a problem on a barbecue,
[00:16:13] Dan: No, exactly.
[00:16:15] Pia: but interesting that, I mean, Erik talked, um, I've thought about the intimacy coordinator and, uh, you know, when they were having sex scenes about literally how to ensure the safety. But also, he came up with that classic phase about clearing the eye line, how did you create that environment? So that was a different tape. Wasn't it? Jess, on site safety, we hadn't, we didn't go into that level of detail when we were talking about it from the intimacy perspective. No, no,
[00:16:48] Dan: avoid the topic.
[00:16:49] Pia: but, we are now, so that, so.
[00:16:52] Jess: Yeah, I thought I really, I loved his, I loved his take, you know, it, it really, I think it highlighted the safety element a lot, you know, and, and safety and psychological safety are going to mean different things in different contexts. And I think that's sort of an important point throughout this whole conversation is around the uniqueness of everybody's experience and how these constructs, which can be quite abstract, they actually play out in very real ways, in different ways, depending on the context people are operating in. And I thought that was a really interesting. And from our work sort of typically corporate organizations, not one that comes up a lot.
[00:17:23] Dan: Yeah, Definitely. I really loved the way Erik talked about that and I and so often teams again, miss that opportunity to say, actually just let's get to know each other. We get straight into the task and, and, I think it's, again, a really top tip for today. In this coming year to spend the time really knowing each other authenticity is on the rise And it's really worth investing in that and making a really good start on the personal connections.
[00:17:49] And then the other part, another part of climate is actually how you work. And if we just move. Thinking about these different ways of actually, you know, who are we? And then how are we going to work? Agile is a really growing a way to be able to perform in such a complex environment. and that Peter's has joined us to talk about agile at scale.
[00:18:09] Natalie: The best teams, the best, most successful teams are really low ego. So I think you can have a team of champions as long as their egos kind of checked at the beginning of the sprint or when they get in the team.
[00:18:23] Pia: I can't think that that could be any more appropriate or going into the new Chinese new year. And it's about, do you want to be a tiger team or a team of tigers. If you want, you want to have that ability to harness all of that collective wisdom. And I loved how she said you just don't have ego. You know, it's really straightforward, but boy, that's hard sometimes, but the ways of working is rapidly changed or there isn't much space for ego.
[00:18:53] Jess: It's an an interesting one too, because you know, we know that status and hierarchy and you know, some of those things which are really in built to lots of big corporates in particular, uh, quite threatening, you know, we, we sort of, we, we will naturally default to a threat state in the presence of people who we, who we deemed to be higher in the hierarchy than we are.
[00:19:10] And so I think agile is a really interesting practice because my, my guests and I haven't. The research somebody may have, but my guess is that early in that process is that team is coming together. That could be quite complex and in some ways, threatening for different people as they're sort of in this cross hierarchical group.
[00:19:27] But over time, I think that's going to be incredibly powerful to, to, um, to sort of remove that threat state and to actually allow everybody to bring their best thinking to the work, which is really powerful.
[00:19:38] Dan: I thought it was I you a hundred percent, right? I think Jess, that's, that's our experience actually of moving to agile. And in fact, what Nat was saying was that, agile looks like a process, you know, Lots of sprints and ceremonies and retros and things. In reality, the way you get to though is a, is a dilution, uh, trying to break down those hierarchies, um, so that the teams can work without ego. So it was, it was fascinating to hear that talking about that, not just a process side, but actually how it can break those, um, break those barriers down and help everyone to perform.
[00:20:14] So once those, those egos are really sort of kept at bay, there's a real opportunity, I think, to to do what teams are there for, which is the heart of it is actually to harness diversity and a Sahera joined us in episode 11 for a really, quite an emotional journey actually, too, that she talked through of her own and talked about diversity. Let's hear what she had to say.
[00:20:40] Sahera: I've had a fairly long, uh, corporate journey, shall I say, working with T. facilitating high potential teams and helping people to be effective as leaders of teams. When, I guess I had my own epiphany in my own journey, as someone of diversity, trying to actually fit in and belong into teams. So I think this is kind of what started my journey when I left corporate and suddenly realized that I didn't have a very strong sense of identity, that I had always taken on the identity of my organization, I guess it really sent me in a bit of a spin in a self-reflective state and I started to really try to think about who I was and what was important to me.
[00:21:22] Pia: So powerful that the author, I mean, Dan, you, and I know Sahera for years, but the, strength of that interview and the strength of of her own self-reflection and the, and the strength of her authenticity was, was really. W was incredibly powerful. Um, and I just, I really hope that, that her demonstrating that in that, in that conversation was a real inspiration for everybody else. Who's listening to just be themselves. And that it's so easy to put on the corporate armor and be what you think everybody wants you to be rather than being.
[00:22:03] Dan: Absolutely. Yeah. And I look back actually not on the many years I've known Sahera I thought, wow, that was her experience while I was working with her, I did, I had no idea. And, uh, but it's so refreshing and so inspiring to see how, how she's living her life authentically. Now, just what sounds all logical, what stands in the way of us and harnessing diversity what's happening there?
[00:22:25] Jess: Yeah. So there was a couple of things. I also found her interview really powerful. And there was a few things that, that came to mind for me. And one was around this idea of unconscious bias and how much of our unconscious bias gets in the way of true diversity. But I think, and she made this point really clearly that I think the thing that really stood out for me here is programmatic interventions to address unconscious bias or at least raise awareness about it are a great start, but they won't and never will solve the problem. You know, if there's a catch phrase that says, if you have a brain, you have bias, we actually can't get around that. And so knowing we have that, that's great, but that doesn't actually make it enough for us to do something to different, so we need to therefore put things in place to check ourselves. So for example, that might be, if we're recruiting people, we make sure that we get a whole bunch of people who look and think very differently to us on that panel with us as part of that process, because we know we can't get out of that.
[00:23:17] But the, I suppose the other thing that the thing that we have to be able to do in order to do that is admit our bias to know it and own it and admit it. And I think that sometimes there's a there's a shame element to that and so, you almost need enough psychological safety to be able to say, actually, I know my bias is that I I'm, I tend to be drawn to women, you know, when I'm recruiting or I tend to be drawn to people with an IT background when I'm recruiting or whatever it is, and to be able to say that's okay, that's my bias and that's okay. And so we're going to, you know, we're going to put things in place that, that mean that we make a great decision, not one that's shaped just by my unconscious biases.
[00:23:53] Dan: It was such a meaningful episode as a Pia says, I hope people are inspired to live that authentic life as, as Sahera has learned to do.
[00:24:01] And if we zoom out on climate again, there's the, the, we we've really. Talked a lot about the soft side of climate there is a hard side as well, which is all the systems and processes that you have, the, the resources, the structures, and so on. And Owen Finegan joined us And he talked a bit about the, the use of data that he brought from sport into the business world. Let's let's have a listen to what he had to say about this hard aspect of climate.
[00:24:27] Owen: Yeah, I think, yeah, I've been in really successful teams on many. Some ordinary teams and some in-between teams, but obviously, the better teams winning world cups and winning whether like cups and having a full cupboard was around rod McWane and John ales and George Gregan. So late strong leaders. Good business. Yeah, I'll just look know we've started in the not-for-profit world and our charity sort of investing in data in the last two or three years. And I just think we were looking at data and rugby 20 years ago, looking at statistics and trends and performance and viewing those statistics to guide how you performed and what your targets were on KPIs and looking at improving your game and all that sort of stuff.
[00:25:13] And. Yeah, we do the same sort of thing now, but. It's 20 years, as I said, two decades down the track. There's a lot of things in sports that guide that a lot of it, a lot of the relationship stuff, and yeah, understanding your team, just not as know, people that do a job, but individuals as well is really important because you can have some wonderful teams, but unless you get their own on the same page and some sort of connection, you're not gonna improve.
[00:25:40] Pia: I think what's really interesting there is. I mean, the sports teams are way ahead of organizations outside the sports teams, using data to this effect and data is, are often is only output and performance, not actually about how we're doing it. Whereas a sports team will spend hours looking at a video or playing in order to be able to really ascertain where their strengths are, where things need to be improved.
[00:26:06] So I think what was interesting about that was that sporting perspective helps particularly teams in business to see it's a holistic game. It's not just an output game. It's about how the team behaves and the way that they interact that is absolutely critical to performance.
[00:26:24] Jess: I was thinking about how that relates back to that sort of attention or circuitry as well. When we talked about, about clarity. So if by using the data and getting very sort of focused on what are the things, having the greatest impact, they can get very clear on what they need to be investing their time in, their attention on, um, and then to your point Pia, what are the particular behaviors or skills or things that they need to bring into play the resources that they need to add to that equation, to make sort of that, you know, and sometimes very small, but impactful, um, progress or change towards those very specific things.
[00:26:56] Dan: That is a lovely segue into competence. And just, just to wrap up climate, let's hear, um, what Todd Schroeder had to say cause I think his, his, for me, his podcast is so much about the climate inside Google, both from a cultural standpoint, but also a sort of a process standpoint. So let's, let's wrap up climate just by listening to Todd.
[00:27:16] Todd: They say it very plainly when you walk in the door, it's not a technology company, it's an innovation company. It's about new ideas. And that one singular kind of introduction just changed my thinking. And you can kind of see how lots of, you know, a lot of employees coming in the door probably had that same sort of impression like you, and so many people around the world have at a company, but it's fast. moving. There's huge amounts of customers. It is innovative. And so, over my tenure here now, what that means to me, we've heard phrases that this company has really coined, that has helped them be innovative and hit their mission, and fulfill their promise. One of the things that really sticks with me is agile We've heard about. being agile and introducing agile development methodologies in the world of technology for a long time. And that whole idea of Don't worry about the. Just start iterating, make incremental progress. You will deviate. You will find a new paths. You will do all these things. And That's taken a long time to break away from waterfall, based kind of methodologies.
[00:28:28] And to agile, this company has done that for decades to, to the point that it iterates in 30 minute increment. So if I can relate to all the listeners into yourselves, like my definition, it's kind of wild, right? My first reaction was you walk in and you think you're a new employee. I'm learning all this stuff. It's an innovation company. I didn't think about it that way, but it. all manifests itself. When you show up on day five and you look at your calendar and you see people throwing blocks on your calendar. 30 minutes here, 30 minutes there, 30 there's no agenda. You don't know what you're walking into. You don't know if you're making a decision or you're going to solve a problem in that 30 minutes, because they'll just grab another 30 minutes. But that rate of change is so viscerally different than anything I think I've ever experienced, but it is what has made the company and innovation company.
[00:29:25] Pia: I mean that I still have some sort of. A bit wowed by that. It's I think particularly, you know, just thinking whoa, 30 minute increments, the speed that your brain has to work, but also what you're processing. Do you think it has any negative impact, Jess? Like, like what's that what's going on in the brain? Can we keep going at that speed?
[00:29:51] Jess: Well, I mean, my first guess is that it's not an environment is going to work for everybody. Um, so, you know, I think it's going to be a particular sort of person who is going to thrive in that environment and for others, it would be too much. It would be overwhelming. I also would guess that the people who are going to do really well in that environment are so deeply connected to the purpose, that that buffers them against the uncertainty in the process along the way, that they can really just anchor to what they're ultimately trying to achieve within Google and Google's mission rather than needing to know, you know, with clarity, what those steps are.
[00:30:28] I think it's also worth sort of talking about or thinking about the element of fun that they bring in. You know, I, I, I would guess that a company like Google is savvy enough that they're not doing that just for the sake of it. They're investing in that element of fun and, and social connection and recharge, because I think that's going to be an important part of how people do keep going. It's going to take a lot of brain fuel to work at that pace and to be that innovative, and you're going to have to break that up in some way. So whether that's playing a game or just socializing in a really sort of structured way within the organization, I think that's going to be a really important part of how people do maintain that pace.
[00:31:02] Dan: Well, brain fuel is a such a handy term, actually. And it makes you realize how you do need to stop at the service stations to fill up before you run out. Good time. During my day, I must say listening to Todd banks, it makes my heart beat a little bit faster. Um, and, uh, but it really reminds me that how conscious we should be about creating climate as they have been. It's not just something that happens to you. It's something you, you create through deliberate choices which was a it was a, as you say, Jess, not for everyone probably, but there was an impressive example of that.
[00:31:31] So let's move on to our third and equally important condition, which is competence. Now, Pia we often talk about be, do have don't we sort of choose your be, how are your attitudes and your beliefs going to be, so that it would drive the right, do the right behaviors and you will therefore get a result. So let's hear a little bit of be with Stuart Dalziel who joined us to talk about customer centricity, talking about the sort of core beliefs of a team.
[00:31:59] Stuart: I think any team, the way to first start is we've got the top down led and the bottom up created. One of our other principles is then to start really moving from thinking about customers, to thinking like customers and what we mean by that is that, that actually it's interesting that it's not, the companies are not thinking about their customers, they are an awful lot. They talk about them all the time, but it's the way they talk about them, and and the way they think about them. So what a team needs to do is to start to think like their customers. And so what that typically involves is getting their teams together, getting other people who we've already touched on getting other people that they interact with from within the organization together, anybody that they are synchronous with and starting to spend time to really look at the customer experience from start to end, that's become quite a well-known approach called customer journey mapping and really get into the detail of what it's like to be a customer.
[00:33:01] Dan: I've always loved that phrase that Stuart's talked about. And it's, it's such a clever, just from a, from the point of teams who want to become more customer centric, they're thinking like customers and it plays even before its time actually plays into this, you know, all the design thinking around empathy and bringing empathy into your thinking. But at the core of competence is that sort of heart of yeah, get that be, the beliefs and the, the mental focus of the team started first. I thought it was a really, um, pretty great point that for any team to take away.
[00:33:32] Pia: And I think Dan, the interesting bit that we've seen about that be, do have is that if you start with half first and you want to have the results, then you you're missing a key part of the key, part of the picture of what creates those results is a combination of those behaviors, that mindset, that attitude combined with the skills, But one of them doesn't work on its own. They have to work.
[00:34:01] And often if we grip and we've all, you know, we've all had that experience. You grip something too hard because you want to have it that often, it doesn't go your, way. It actually decided the very difficult to achieve or you don't succeed. And so I think this is a really important part because competence has got both knowledge and skill and behavior and attitude, and that equally important, the work that we've done over the, over the last 20 odd years, we've seen it time and time again. Over index on one. And there will be challenges around that. I don't know whether you've seen that too Jess in in your experience.
[00:34:39] Jess: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that that's, that's definitely something that I've seen in organizations, but I was thinking about this in a, in a sort of frontline, you know, and I've not, I've not been well, I've worked in a bar when I was in uni, but I haven't been frontline for, for a long time now, but. You know, I was thinking about this sense of kind of mastery and the impact of, of working to your strengths in, in the context of competence. And I think taking this empathetic lens and the way Stewart was describing thinking like customers rather than about them, I think it makes it easier to feel a sense of mastery because you're not trying to solve problems that you don't really understand or know the answers to.
[00:35:15] And the goal becomes different. So it becomes about really trying to understand. And I think that that's something that, you know, lots of the frontline people that I've worked with and seen, they, they really want to do that. They're really connected to that purpose. Um, but they can't necessarily solve problems from outside that view. And so I think this lens gives them an in to be able to get that sense of mastery and feel like they can make a difference with their customers.
[00:35:38] Dan: You mentioned empathy there, Jess, as we've been talking about quite a bit. And, um, and I think that it's, it's a really good cue to hear Michelle Zimany talking about one of the other skills that every team leader and, every team member really needs to have these days, which is that, that one of empathic leadership, what are the skills around building the human connection and a team.
[00:35:58] Michelle: And we initially it was every week that was too much, then we did once a month and that was not quite enough because, if someone missed it, that was like two months before we had that kind of connection for them, so once a fortnight, we sort of landed on you know, That works. If you miss one, it's not the end of the world, maybe do coffee, catch ups, I've got a virtual cooking. If it's Are You Okay day tomorrow. And our team are doing a virtual, cooking, team building where
[00:36:23] Pia: what's cooking. What are you doing?
[00:36:24] Michelle: I don't know, cause I've got a list of ingredients, so they haven't given us what it is. These are the ingredients you've got to go and buy. This is what you need to have. And two of the team are being our chefs, and then we're just going to have a bit of fun with it for a couple of hours tomorrow afternoon.
[00:36:38] So, it's just playing around and testing things and learning and going, okay. That was a bit too much. Let's pair it back. Getting feedback and just, and working, finding out what works, and some meetings like our coffee catch-up, there is no structure, there is no agenda, it's, we put it out there, who's got an issue that they want to solve. Let's meet Linda's new puppy, whatever it might be. And that's a way to connect and sort of bring that, I think that laughter and fun and what's going on for everybody personally.
[00:37:07] Dan: Strangely the thing I took away from, from that conversation with Michelle was was not just how imaginative they've been around, how They can build human connection, meet Linda's puppy, for example, but actually how experimental they've been about it to have that ability to try something listening and say, actually that worked too infrequent. Did that work, didn't it.
[00:37:29] Not everyone wants to meet Linda's puppy. Um, uh, you know, different things. will work for different people. The thing to do is to tune in to hear what's actually working. and That was what I really took away from that episode.
[00:37:39] Jess: And I think that that's sort of the key to the empathy piece. You know, empathy is not about assuming everyone's having the same experience. Empathy is about taking the time to understand the unique experience that everybody's having. And I think to add to what you said, Dan, one of the things I took away from that is that I think competence or, you know, the list of things that are. And teams will need to be competent in, you know, there's, there's some shifts, there's some changes in that we we're working in a really different way. Um, and while we've always, we've always said that empathy is an important leadership trait. I think there's a, as a kind of refreshed or, or perhaps magnified lens on that now, because of the experience that everybody is having.
[00:38:15] And things like figuring out what is that operating rhythm for your team around, you know, those water cooler conversations or those micro interactions or whatever it is that, that you've lost. The team feels that they've lost and they want back, there is a skill, a new skill, perhaps in finding a way to bring that back in.
[00:38:31] Pia: And I think that then takes us to the last element of this, which is when Gillian Coutts did a brilliant session on understanding what compassion is. And for me that is really made it clear. There are so many things we can't control, but the thing we can control is how we interact with others and the connection that we create. That's, that's absolutely critical and we have much more influence than we realize. I needed a team dynamic that's critical. You kind of can really rally together and get through anything. So let's, um, let's listen to Jillian had talking, just talking about that, the FMR I, and, and how that relates to compassion.
[00:39:22] Gillian: It's so interesting because people often use empathy and compassion as like interchangeably. And I think what's interesting from a neurological perspective is a very different brain functions. So for some of the research definition, empathy is, as I said before, taking in someone's experience through your pain matrix, you know, what they feel.
[00:39:40] And there's this fantastic researcher in Germany, Dr. Tania singer, who's done some amazing work on this, where she would get people in to an FMRI scanner and scan their brains while she shows them pictures of people, dreadfully, suffering like orphans in Romania and stuff. And as she takes great delight in seeing their brains light up in this pain matrix wagon, she's kind of looking at that.
[00:40:02] But there was one part of the experiment she was doing. Um, where she got a long-term meditator. So someone who had been training their brain for over 10,000 hours, guy called Maturer card. And she put him in there for my scanner and asked him to empathize. And so she did, he did that, but as she kind of went to do something else, so she was switching the experiment.
[00:40:24] He's an dusk different part of his brain lit up and she's like, well, hang on. What's happened because. Participants in the study. They're like, it's hard to let go of images when you've been suffering. Like when you've seen people suffering. So often we ruminate about things for a long time and things like that.
[00:40:40] So she was noticing that in the scanner, but this guy had something completely different. This guy had a completely different area of his brain light up and she said, well, what the hell are you doing? I should probably didn't say that. But anyway, I can imagine saying that.
[00:40:50] Pia: That's that. sounds like a really good research. You can comment. What are you doing? Don't do
[00:40:55] Gillian: doing that. And he said, well, you've just asked me to empathize. If these people aren't exhausted. So I'm switching to compassion. She goes, well, what's that? She said, well, I'm deliberately connecting with my own intention. My own wish that these people not suffer and that they be happy. And that they'd be well.
[00:41:13] And I, I can't do anything for them right now, but I can offer them my intention that I want them to not. And what Dr. Singer had noticed was that the areas associated with love and reward laid up in their brain. So an entirely different part of the brain in, in is connected with this sense of volitional intention.
[00:41:34] So it's like a research now would say that empathy is an emotion. Like it's, it's actually a shared emotion and that, um, compassion is an intention. So it's something that we intend and it's usually connected with some sort of action.
[00:41:48] Dan: This really struck me actually as a huge learning. I think I've been one of the people to be honest, he probably use those words interchangeably and, um, and it really helped me to see that. I can move from one to another. And Jess, I imagine this is at the heart of really building our effectiveness as humans and as team members, to be able to make those conscious choices about where you focus your thinking and your energies.
[00:42:16] Jess: I think Jillian, um, talked about the fact that sort of over empathizing can get in the way of being effective, you know, because it's painful, it hurts. Some people are naturally more empathetic than others. They'll get they'll, you know, they'll get very distressed watching the news, they'll see something happen to somebody don't know that they don't know, and they're still feel really effected by that. And then the closer that person gets to them, that that sort of experience of pain goes up. That has a certain purpose and that that can be, uh, a useful experience, but it doesn't necessarily to positive action. And so I think when she talked about sort of making that shift and that that's quite a self-regulatory shift too, to be able to say, this hurts and I, I'm not going to be effective In this state. So I'm going to consciously shift now to being in a different state that allows me to understand this person's experience, but in a way that disconnects it from my own. so that I can take what we would sort of call pro-social action, pro-social behaviors. So actions toward human connection and in the support of others.
[00:43:16] And I think very powerful skill or attitude and skill will probably for teams to be able to, to adapt and think about how they build practices around And similarly to gratitude. So the research around gratitude has shown incredibly powerful effects on the brain around activating that process. Brian network that allows us to, to connect form bonds And, move towards in service of each other. So, you know, how can we get teams doing that? How can we build compassion and gratitude and practices like that, even to the way that teams operate.
[00:43:46] Pia: So I think what's really interesting Like we've looked at these three C's clarity, climate and competence, and in the old world, everything was predicated almost on our competence. Our ability to rise up through the chain at work, you know, by being cleverer and better and smarter, but we're in a whole new world and 2022, it's more holistic. And that's where I think these other elements of clarity and climate are going to be so critical for team leaders and teams to think more holistically about how they support each other and themselves to. deliver. And it's not all about pushing harder and trying to get squeeze more lemon or juice out of the lemon that that's, not going to work in this environment.
[00:44:42] Jess: In each of the three conditions, in different ways, they all keep us safe. So they all work. From a kind of brain perspective. They work to keep us out of that threat state. In that reward state, they keep us feeling safe, which allows us to do our best thinking. It allows us to our best work, to connect with people. And they really do tap into those intrinsic needs that we have as human beings to feel motivated and to feel well, to feel psychologically healthy and have resilience and wellbeing.
[00:45:09] And so I think some of the context of the last two years has put a spotlight on things that have always been true, but they have put a spotlight and maybe a magnifying glass on some of these things, which I think is good in a sense, because they are, they're bringing these conversations into organizations in a way that I think is, is different And really has the potential to be really powerful.
[00:45:28] Dan: And, I think looking ahead Pia, that's always a useful framework for a start to meet you as a team member or a team leader to feel. Actually, I know, I've got an easy way to sort of steer my team, just to make sure I create the conditions for their success. But when something big happens, like it's happening now, big shift to remote working a pandemic, everything else, well actually, you know, AI, you can name multiple changes that are happening to us now. To be able to. To put that in front of those three Cs in front of you and say right, right now, what conditions do I need to create? Do we all need to create in this team is, is incredibly reassuring. And you just know you're not missing anything.
[00:46:04] Pia: And I think the only bit to add to that is there is really power in only having three things to think about, you know, you don't want great long lists. You know you because our brains capacity is reduced. I think because we've got all this external noise, just like you were saying previously Dan, you know, when stuff happens and the pressure builds up, you've got less Headspace. So three things is a good focus for teams and it's unifying in its purpose as well as in its output
[00:46:37] Dan: Well thank you, Jess. Thank you so much for joining us for this, this little look back on the year and, and a quick look forward to the year ahead. It's been, as usual a delight, but also very insightful to have you on the We Not Me podcast again. Thank you so much for joining us.
[00:46:52] Jess: Thanks guys. My pleasure.
[00:46:54] Pia: Thanks, Jess.
[00:46:54] The three Cs has been such a defining framework for me, both personally and professionally. You know, run a business for 12 years, and yes it helps you to analyze what's going on the dynamics of the team, but when you really understand it, it becomes proactive. So you're really setting yourself up for success in advance. That's the power of it.
[00:47:30] And when you can lead your team to see that vision, and it's like all your doge, download that step on that landmine, you know, in advance you need to do the work on it. And it's the same personally, you know, we go through transitions in our lives and things can feel quite chaotic and difficult, but being able to see that there are things that you can do in terms of clarity in the way that you're communicating to others. and maximizing that sense of sort of teamwork and that safety for your, for yourself and potentially your family. And then looking at your own behaviors, things that you might be doing that could help or hinder the process. It's just a really simple way of being able to be above what's going on, not so sucked into it that lose sight of everything.
[00:48:21] Dan: Just allows you to zoom out, doesn't it. And I think your point about using it yes. As a diagnostic, but also as a planning tool, I think there's no better time for that. We're looking at a new year for our listeners. I hope to be able to sit down and think, right. Actually, what do I want these three Cs to look like for my team? It's just a lovely moment to detach yourself from the hurly burly of day-to-day life and really think about, uh, a future.
[00:48:46] And to help people we'll put in the show notes, a little cheat sheet on the three Cs so, um, we hope that'll support everyone in doing that.
[00:48:53] So really great to do a re a retrospective of season one, but we're really getting into season two for real now Pia. Who've we got on next week's show?
[00:49:01] Pia: Well, I want to say we're just going to get into the swing of it because of course that would be a brilliant segue into jazz. You see? And we've got Craig Scott who was the former chair of the jazz unit at the Sydney Conservatorium and I met him nearly, probably over 10 years ago when I was studying there. And he is fantastic. And that perspective of, again, looking at the improvisation and the way that those, those guys that are performing and the way that they work together as a team, it's really insightful. So I'm looking forward to that very much.
[00:49:40] Dan: Yes, this is something that's very close to my heart. It's it's um, it's just a brilliant analogy for, for a team that, that we can learn a great deal from. I have to say parents, I mentioned that for some reason, I've had a mental block with Craig and I've as in communicating with you about it. And I kept calling him Scott, and eventually I called him Scott in an email, which was hilarious. So I went back back immediately and said.
[00:50:00] Pia: I mean you consistent.
[00:50:02] Dan: consistent. I was, I don't know what was going on, but anyway, I remember he broke immediately And said, just so sorry, I'm an idiot. Um, you know, all the best Hammond. And the thing that really made me love him, he came back, he said, I'm so used to it. And he was actually in primary school with a boy called Scott Craig. Could you believe it? So anyway, that gave me a good cuckle I've got over it now and Craig will be on the show with us next week.
[00:50:27] But for this week we are done. That's the episode for now you can find show notes and resources, including that cheat sheet on the three Cs at squadify.net, just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends.
[00:50:44] We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of origin.fm. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:50:51] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.