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UP TO THE MINUTE is a production of Colorado Radio for Justice (CRJ). It's a weekly snapshot of what’s happening, and what’s on the horizon, in the criminal-legal system in Colorado and beyond, hosted by CRJ's team of system-impacted podcast hosts. CRJ's featured guests / contributors on the show are staff from the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition (CCJRC). www.radioforjustice.org
[00:00:00]
Welcome to Up to the Minute with Colorado Radio for Justice. My name is Trevor Jones, and today I'm speaking with Manige Blackburn with the Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition, CCJRC. And we're discussing a upcoming ballot measure concerning fentanyl in the state of Colorado. Monisha, uh, could you tell us real quick what you do with the CCJRC, and what is the CCJRC?
Manige Blackburn-Giles:
So I am the community organizer for Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition.
we've been around since 1999 working on reducing the overuse of the criminal legal system, and my primary job right now is [00:01:00] to educate the public on this fentanyl ballot measure and what it would do, how it would change things, what it would keep the same, and so people can vote with all the facts.
Trevor Jones:
for those of us who do not know, what is a ballot measure, and what does it do, and how does it maybe compare with traditional legislation?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: So a ballot measure was originally intended to be a way for the broader community to be able to effect real change and impart real laws on their community.
And so it is done through a signature process. People have probably seen all the paid signers up at the King Soopers and things like that lately. the idea initially was that, well, if a group comes together, thinks this thing is important, and we want to do something about it, that we can collect signatures that indicates that the community supports us, and with enough signatures, then it becomes a ballot measure, and it goes on the ballot, and then the [00:02:00] entire state votes on it.
Trevor Jones: is it usually a vote of a simple yes or no?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: Yes. It is a yes or no generally, and it has in recent years kind of changed, where special interest groups are now using that, uh, method to put issues on the ballot, um, when they cannot get any legislators to carry that for them. And so it's not really how it's intended to be used, but that is one of the ways that it's currently being used.
Trevor Jones: with this ballot measure in particular, uh, we will be seeing it on the ballot this November- Yep ... in 2026?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: It'll be on the ballot this November. It will get a number. It has a number now, but that number's going to change. Makes it really clear for everybody as they're trying to keep up with it. We're actually expecting about 14 ballot measures on this November's ballot, so that's part of the reason why we're so interested in making sure everybody has the facts, 'cause it's going to be a really overwhelming ballot.
Trevor Jones: what is the best way for someone to get educated about ballot measures or maybe the facts about [00:03:00] them?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: Well, the facts on this ballot measure, you would go to getthefactsco.org.
there are, like I said, about 14 of them, and different organizations are running information on them, and I think that's one of the challenges we're really going to face is that there's not a good singular place right now to find information on them all.
Trevor Jones:
So let's talk about this actual ballot measure that's being forwarded. It has to do with the, um, sentencing around fentanyl.
can you give us a maybe basic introduction to what this ball- ballot measure's trying to do?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: So this ballot measure, if it were to pass and become law, uh, would essentially change current law and bring everybody who is in possession of fentanyl or a drug that contains fentanyl, so it doesn't even have to be knowingly fentanyl, so it could, you thought you got Xanax, or you thought you got something else, and it had fentanyl in it.
And one of the considerations is that our drug [00:04:00] supply is really, really tainted. Mm. Um, so a lot of times people buy or are given things, and they have no idea what's really in it. this ballot measure, if it were to pass, would take everybody and bring them up to the trafficking level of sentencing.
So currently, we have a law for trafficking drugs that is eight to 32 years in prison. Um, and it would take anybody, whether they were sharing it, up to eight to 32 years in prison. If they had a personal use amount because they maybe have a substance misuse disorder, or they are sharing at a party, up to eight to 32 years in prison.
They didn't know that there was fentanyl in their drugs, eight to 32 years in prison. Uh, if they, um, are a first-time offender, they could be eligible for that eight to 32 years in prison. So it really just brings everybody who has a drug that contains fentanyl up to the trafficking level of sentencing.
Trevor Jones:
Do you know what the current, uh, laws surrounding fentanyl are [00:05:00] right now with possession or distribution of fentanyl?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: I'm not wildly familiar with the current law in that way. But we do have mitigating laws that say if you didn't know that there was fentanyl in your drugs, that you are not eligible for the harshest sentences.
Because- That's not fair. You- I'm in trouble for something I didn't even know I had.
Trevor Jones: Yes.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: Um, and so our current law does recognize that. This ballot measure, if it were to pass, would change that, and it would no longer matter that you didn't know. You would still be up to that mandatory minimum, and I think that's a really important piece.
It's a mandatory minimum of eight to 32 years in prison. So the DA would have no discretion. Your judge would have no discretion. It's a mandatory minimum.
Trevor Jones: and a mandatory sentence, uh, is designed to take away the guesswork of sentencing or something?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: And it's intended in part to lean into the thought process that harsher sentences [00:06:00] are a deterrent.
Trevor Jones: Okay.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: If you mess around with drugs and get caught, that you're going away for almost a decade, and that, in theory, is why it's a mandatory minimum.
Trevor Jones: what is the effectiveness of mandatory sentencing? Has, has it shown itself to be pretty effective to reducing crime?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: We have, um, gone through this before, uh, in the '90s.
We-- It got named the War on Drugs, um, and the War on Drugs didn't work. Um, we incarcerated a lot of people for a really long time, and it did not interrupt the crack epidemic. Um, and so we do know now that we've done research on like, why didn't that work, right? We all thought it would work. It was like tough on crime, tough on drugs, you know.
When it didn't work, we started doing a lot of research as a country. Why didn't this work? And it turns out that it's not actually a deterrent, because the driving force for people using drugs has nothing to do [00:07:00] with the consequences of using drugs.
Trevor Jones: Okay. Yes. That is very interesting. That might go into a larger conversation about drug policy, drug sentencing- Right
um, which would inform someone who's trying to make a decision about what to do with this ballot measure.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: Mm-hmm.
Trevor Jones: who is trying to see this fentanyl measure, uh, get advanced in the, um, this election?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: the folks who are behind this ballot measure are called Advance Colorado.
they are the ones who came up with it. They are the ones who got the signatures for it. Um, it is a really good example of a special interest group deciding that they want to do something that the legislators don't agree with.
They can't get anybody who's currently elected to carry this issue through for one reason or another. And so they superseded that process by doing the ballot measure. So they paid, um, ballot signers to be at the King Soopers, said, " Hey, do you want to do something about fentanyl?" People say, "Yeah, we should do something about fentanyl."
I think we all have seen the [00:08:00] effects of fentanyl and overdose happening in our communities, and people are concerned, like reasonably concerned. Um, and they collected signatures, and they got this on the ballot.
Trevor Jones: you mentioned the concern that, uh, the populace might have, and voters in particular, about fentanyl abuse and the consequences of fentanyl use.
Do you think that that's the main motivation or one of the primary motivations that, uh, organizations like Advance Colorado and other people who would support this measure, uh, might have, and why they want to see it advanced or?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: A lot of what I've seen and heard is that people are desperate for a solution, truly desperate, right?
A lot of us, whether or not we are in community with people who are living on the streets, whether or not we are living with people who use substances for
misuse reasons or for fun or for medical reasons. Um, people are [00:09:00] dying. People are dying in the streets. I have had days where-- There was one day I was on my way home. I responded to an overdose here at the office, I responded to an overdose at a bus stop on the way home, and I responded to an overdose on-- at a bus stop on the corner, on the intersection where I live in the same day.
Um, and I'm just driving home, right, people are dying in the streets, and people are desperate for a solution. And a lot of the people who support this ballot measure are just looking for someone to do something.
Because I think it's not an unreasonable criticism to say that we're just letting people die. We're not interrupting the drug supply. We are not appropriately attending to substance misuse. We don't have the funding in our state to attend to it, right? And so we have to do something. And I really do think that the people who support this ballot measure are largely families who have lost [00:10:00] a family member, and I get that, right?
Last year, my brother died of a fentanyl overdose, and I understand wanting that to have not happened, and I understand that his story is very similar to some of the families who support this and very different to some of the families who support this. But at the end of the day, our families are dead from this issue, and we don't really see any meaningful action being done to curb this really huge public health crisis.
Trevor Jones: Yeah, it's definitely a very serious problem. Um, you had mentioned that there's, there's not much being done to address it in any other way, and that this-- it's almost an act of desperation.
are there other viable options for dealing with the fentanyl crisis and maybe the drug problem overall or in a larger context?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: we know that funding for behavioral health- Mm ... is supportive in reducing people's overdoses. forced treatment is not. Um, [00:11:00] you can force people into treatment all day. If they're not invested in the treatment and stopping the drug that they are there for, then you're not going to force them.
Just like you can't force somebody to stop eating McDonald's, right? Like if that's a problem for them and they don't want to stop, you can drag them away from McDonald's every day, but if they can get back to a McDonald's, they're going to eat it. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's not to compare those two issues, but just to say that behavior change isn't about deterrent, right?
It's a mental health concern. funding behavioral health treatment, funding, um, Medicaid. A lot of times people are using drugs because there's a health issue that they can't get other care for. I'm in pain. I'm in pain because I have a problem with my body, and I can't get in to see a doctor because I have Medicaid, and Medicaid is so defunded that there are so few providers that I can't get help.
So I look to fentanyl, or I look to something else on the streets to help my pain. That's a real [00:12:00] physical issue, but I can't get medical treatment for it, so I turn because I'm desperate, I'm in pain, and I can't live like this. Um, same thing with anxiety, right? Because our drug supply is so tainted, people go to the streets and they're buying Xanax,
And if that has fentanyl in it, like they didn't mean to take the fentanyl. They were looking for behavioral healthcare in the streets. So increasing funding for behavioral healthcare, substance misuse, um, physical health are all things that would help curb this. the interesting thing about this ballot measure is it actually doesn't provide any additional funding for any of the things that we know work.
Trevor Jones: it's simply a sentencing enhancement- Mm-hmm ... type of a measure.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: It simply increases the amount of time somebody would get in prison, not jail, but prison, for having fentanyl in their drugs.
Trevor Jones: why is fentanyl getting the attention it's getting when there are other drugs... I believe fentanyl's a narcotic.
Um, or an, or an opiate, I'm sorry.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: It's an opiate.
Trevor Jones: Yeah, an [00:13:00] opiate. Uh, there's other opiates- Mm ... available on the market. Mm. Uh, why is fentanyl being forwarded as the problem when there are other drugs doing similar things?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: it really boils down to fentanyl is getting all of the attention it's getting because it takes such an incredibly minuscule amount to kill you, and it's highly addictive.
Trevor Jones: Okay.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: It is highly, highly addictive. So we know that a large portion of our drug supply is tainted with fentanyl.
It-- We can take guesses all day why people are tainting the drugs, right? Mm-hmm. It's not your standard dealer on the corner. They're not manufacturing the drugs, right? They're not pressing the pills. They're getting it from their person, who's getting it from their person, and the person who's putting the fentanyl in it probably isn't anywhere near the person who's overdosing.
Mm-hmm. Right? And one of the things that is a consideration, maybe an unintended consequence of this ballot measure, is [00:14:00] that it places the responsibility on these people in a really hyperlocal way when they're not even the ones responsible, really, right? They didn't put the fentanyl in there. They got it from somebody who got it from somebody who may or may not even live in the state or the country.
Trevor Jones: it's not necessarily the person on the street corner who's...
You know, they're not making the fentanyl, and they're, uh, they might not even know they have it. Mm-hmm. The people who know what it is and who are putting it into, uh, whatever they're serving or selling, uh, they're higher up the, you know, drug distribution chain. There are laws that are pretty harsh for those people, are, is there not?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: Yeah, and that's the drug trafficking laws, the eight to 32 years, that it brings everybody else up to. So it-- this law doesn't change anything for the people who are actually affecting the contents of the drugs in communities. Their sentencing doesn't go up. They're not getting more time. They're not getting caught more, right?
It just [00:15:00] brings everybody else, the kid partying and sharing drugs, the person who has a substance misuse problem, who is just t-taking the drugs themselves. They buy it for themselves. They don't sell it. They use it themselves. Um, it's bringing all those people up to the trafficking level, but it doesn't affect the trafficking
Trevor Jones: Do we have any stats showing that drug traffickers getting harsher penalties has reduced drug trafficking or drug selling?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: we know harsher sentences don't change much, right? We've had lots and lots of high, high sentences.
Um, and I think one thing people forget is that we frequently don't catch these traffickers. They're so far removed from the people using on the street. They're so far removed from your neighborhood drug dealer that they're not getting caught in the first place.
Trevor Jones: So we definitely see that fentanyl is a very serious problem. Um, and people you mentioned feel desperate and need something to, to [00:16:00] happen. They want some, some sort of solution to this problem. why would anyone maybe not support this legislation that's being presented or this ballot measure? Um, we kind of explained why someone might want to support it.
Why would someone maybe think that this isn't the way to go or not support the passing of it?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: I think there are a couple things. Uh, the first one, if you are somebody who is really concerned about prison, you know, we-- our prisons have been in the news a lot lately. Um, and if you're somebody concerned about whether or not prison actually helps people, about the way people are treated when they're in prison, about the lengths of sentences, I think you might be concerned about this because it would incarcerate an additional approximately nine hundred people per year.
if you are somebody who's concerned about the fiscal part of it and how much, you know, we all heard about the state budget and Governor Polis struggling to balance our budget, um, this ballot measure [00:17:00] would provide zero funding towards our state budget, but it would also cost the state budget four hundred and thirty-three million dollars.
Uh, b- and so it's like we can't fund the things that we know work. We can't fund public health. We can't fund, uh, behavioral health treatment. We can't fund mental health treatment. We can't fund Medicaid. All the things that have been decreased as we've tried to balance the budget are going to be further decreased because this ballot measure would cost four hundred and thirty-three million dollars but provide zero money towards that, that bill.
Trevor Jones: it's almost like, "Well, hey, let's just enhance sentencing," and, and like maybe that, that'll solve the whole problem-
Manige Blackburn-Giles: Mm-hmm ...
Trevor Jones: without maybe taking into account, well, how does enhancing sentencing play out in larger pictures like prison population, state budget- Mm-hmm
things like that. Maybe those considerations weren't made when writing this measure?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: No, those considerations aren't made, um, I don't think, when [00:18:00] writing this measure, and that's because Advance Colorado, they are self-described, they're a self-described conservative, uh, think tank, and by and large, that is not the issue they're trying to curb.
they're not talking about the state budget. Um, they are not talking about behavioral healthcare funding. They are simply talking about punishing people who have fentanyl.
Trevor Jones: Am I mistaken that, um, uh, reduced government spending is a conservative, um, value?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: It is a conservative value.
I think it used to be- Okay ... maybe. Um, it is something that they espouse, for sure. Um, but Advance Colorado
they do say that they care about reducing government funding and government overreach. Uh, but then here we are putting the government in what is absolutely a public health issue.
Trevor Jones: that budget number you threw out is pretty shocking, [00:19:00] um, especially when we're already in trouble.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: It's very shocking.
And, you know, that doesn't account for the things like the fact that it's starting to, as we're kind of digging in to, like, what are the unintended consequences? Okay, we lock everybody up for eight to 32 years, but what does that do and what does that not do, and how does that impact the community? Um, one of the things that we are starting to learn is that
this also may increase overdose deaths, because as you increase sentencing, there is that concern that people will no longer ask for help when somebody's overdosing.
So if I am using drugs with my friend and my friend starts to overdose, am I going to call the police and 911 to get them help if I know that I'm going to prison for eight to 32 years as well? That deters people from asking for help, and the unintended consequence of that is an increase in overdose deaths.
Trevor Jones: do we have any information on [00:20:00] the existence of fentanyl inside the Colorado Department of Corrections? Is there fentanyl inside the prisons?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: Yes, there are overdose deaths in prison from fentanyl.
Trevor Jones: it seems like it's a very complicated problem, and, uh, the ballot measure with good intentions m- may not be addressing the main problems
Manige Blackburn-Giles: I mean, I think it's, it's an attempt at addressing a very, very real problem.
The thing that we're missing is the evidence, right?
Harm reduction, we know harm reduction works, and the theory behind harm reduction is that we keep you alive until you're ready to make a different choice for yourself. Um, you can't stop using drugs if you're dead.
we have some phenomenal harm reductionists in this state, people working really hard to help people get their drugs tested, to make sure they have safe supplies, to reduce the harm, hence the term harm reduction, to the individual, which [00:21:00] then reduces the harm to the community.
but there is really an ideological difference between punishment and harm reduction.
Trevor Jones: And I think there's some interesting conflations with the people who are supporting this ballot measure because they're saying, "Well, it is harm reduction. We're giving out Narcan." And it's like, well, yes, Narcan is harm reduction, um, but also is being a safe place for people to say, like, "I am using drugs, and I cannot stop right now, and I also don't want to die tomorrow on the street.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: So like, I do want to test my drugs and make sure that I'm going to live to see tomorrow. Maybe at tomorrow I'll wake up, and tomorrow will be the day that I choose to go to treatment." But then that begs the question, how do we pay for that? Because we are chronically disfu- defunding treatment. Um, and so even if somebody wants to get treatment, we are in the bottom 10 states for funding for behavioral health treatment,
Trevor Jones: That's another shocking [00:22:00] number
Manige Blackburn-Giles: another shocking... I know, the state of Colorado, we, we have the beautiful mountains, and people come here, and we're the healthiest state, and also we are not funding treatment.
Trevor Jones: I mean, Colorado tends to be blue.
is funding behavioral health not a blue issue, or is it just tricky politics?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: It's tricky politics- Okay ... and also we forget that cities tend to be more blue, tend to vote more Democratic, and rural parts of any state tend to vote more Republican. And so we have a lot of mountain towns, and we have Larimer County, and we have Weld County, and we have over there by Wyoming, um, that is historically very conservative.
And as much as we all would like to have our way be the way that everything runs, I think government really does work when we have that push and that pull and that collaboration. A lot of that has broken down lately and, [00:23:00] um, we are currently in a budget shortfall where everything is getting cut. So it's not just behavioral health, right?
It's K-12 education just as well. And K-12 education is also something that reduces substance misuse in a community because when people are well-educated, when people have a good foundation and are able to read and write and do math, and therefore get a job that can keep them inside, which leads us to, like, wages, right?
If we can do all of those things to take care of ourselves, then maybe we don't sell drugs. Because a-- sometimes the story is, not every time, but sometimes the story is, "I'm selling drugs to keep my family inside and to put food on the table, and that's the only way I can do it because I can't get another kind of job.
Maybe I have a reading disability that nobody intervened in because I went to a school that was in a county that didn't have good funding." Right? Like, there really is a trickle-down, pun not intended. Um, there [00:24:00] really is a trickle-down with all of these things that we do for little kids that help them later in life not be somebody who leans into substances in one way or another to support themselves.
Trevor Jones: Okay. So you have information.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: I have a little bit.
Trevor Jones: you help people understand these topics. Mm-hmm. It's part of your role here- It is ... at CCJRC. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm a moderately educated voter maybe, and I'm trying to make decisions on ballot initiatives as well as everything else on the ballot, the politicians.
what advice would you give me that could help me feel more prepared and be more on top of what's being presented in, in a ballot measure or in, uh, the, the ballot as a whole?
Manige Blackburn-Giles: This year, I think my advice would be find an organization you trust. I- if-- Whether that's CCJRC, whether that's One Colorado, whether that's, [00:25:00] um, Soul to Soul Sisters, whether that's Second Chance Center, any organization that you trust.
Um, and they'll be talking about things, and you can see who they're talking about it with. So it's r- my advice, especially in a year where we're going to have over a dozen ballot measures to parse out, find the one issue that you believe in the most. Find the organization that looks and understands at that issue the way that you do, and then see what they say about that issue.
And then there's something that Colorado does pretty well, which is coalition building. And so you'll see on a lot of people's websites, um, "Hey, we've got these other organizations that work with us." Okay. Who are those organizations? My organization that I trust, trusts those organizations. What do they say about the other issues?
And I think that would help guide you down a path That makes sure your [00:26:00] perspective is reflected in what perspectives are being used on the ballot measure issues. if criminal justice reform is your jam, and you really care about people going to prison, um, and you really trust Colorado Criminal Justice Reform Coalition, maybe just, you know, as an example.
Yeah. You go onto- As an example ... their website and say, "Okay," and at the bottom we have lists of organizations that are in coalition with us, and it's like, okay, I see down here that, um, there's this other organization that actually works on LGBTQ issues that is in coalition with CCJRC. Okay, let me click on their website or G- Google them, see what they say about the ballot measures that affect the LGBTQ community.
And that will help you kind of lead with your ethics and lead with your morals and not just be out in the wind because [00:27:00] everybody's trying to get you to believe like they do.
Trevor Jones: I really appreciate that advice. I'll be using your advice. And I will be referencing the CCJRC and your website to try to help me understand some of these issues and people.
Uh, Manige, thank you so much for your time today. Of course. That was very informative. And we do plan to do a follow-up on this as we get closer to the election, which I look forward to being with you and Kyle for that.
Trevor Jones: So, thank you for your time today, and we'll see where things go in the next couple months.
Manige Blackburn-Giles: Yeah, thanks for hanging out with me.
[00:28:00]