Disrupting Education with Rebecca Wolfe and Ryan MacDonald

Show Notes

Changing the narratives of what our kids learn is not only disruptive, but it's a long overdue change.   On top of that, changing the system to adapt to the individual needs of kids is the way to guarantee that future generations can move forward.   Ryan MacDonald and Rebecca Wolfe are working hard to change how things are being done for the better. 

What is Disruption Now?

A podcast to disrupt common narratives and constructs to empower diverse communities. We provide inspirational content from entrepreneurs and leaders who are disrupting the status quo.

It really goes down

to the mindset of that

every individual child has the ability

to their biggest potential

and really making sure that they see

each child and each student

as having the strengths

and the abilities to achieve

what they're able

to and making sure

that they support a system

that allows and enables

educators to do that for them

Welcome to Disruption Now!

I'm your host, the

moderator, Rob Richardson.

With me today, we're doing

We have to guests

you know,

we normally don't do two guests,

but got to disrupt it a little bit.

So we will today.

My first guest is Ryan MacDonald,

who is senior program associate

with the Council of Chief

State School Officers.

Also with me is

a vice president from Knowledge Works.

She's the vice president of Impact

and Improvement with Knowledge

Works and is based in Boston.

But, you know, we have a big Cincinatti

presence here, too,

so we're honored to

have them both on the show.

Welcome, both of you.

Thank you for having me.

We're looking forward

to the conversation.

No looking forward

to having you and really

talking about how we can

improve education.

It's the one of the most important things

that we do in our society. And

we need to constantly

innovate, constantly improve.

And so I'm always interested

and I know our listeners

are always interested in the innovation

that's happening within the space

and how we can improve it

to really impact more lives.

And so just honored to have you both on.

I know you are both kind of

co collaborating on a project.

If you can talk about

a little bit about what you

what you two are doing together

and what you see

as the vision going forward for that.

I'll start with you Rebecca.

Sure.

So Ryan and I came together almost six

or seven years ago

now in response to something that

both of our organizations,

we're hearing in different

parts of the world

where more and more folks

were starting to pay attention

to the research on

how students actually

learn, what motivates them,

what engages them,

and what we were calling

student centered learning.

And educators and innovators

kind of at that cutting edge were saying,

oh, we love this, but what is the this

what does it look like?

And at the same time,

Ryan's organization,

which focuses on the chiefs,

so the systems level, the folks in

each of the states were saying, well,

if we want to support this,

what would the policy be?

What would the regulation be?

And because it was

it was pretty brand new.

Again, this was starting 10 years ago.

So our organizations came together

in about seven years ago

to try to develop

a set of what we've called

educator competencies,

so that groups of educators, school

districts, states

that are trying to move in

this more transformative

direction, have a roadmap,

have a set of ways of saying, oh,

this is what it means

to truly be learner

centered, to truly build

collaboration systems, schools

that are meeting the learner

where they need and are helping

point them towards the future

of of where they want to go.

And the reason we're

kind of here and back, you know,

we said it seven years ago.

We just came out with a whole

refresh of the competencies.

So maybe I'll kick it to Ryan

to talk about why we thought

this was the time now

and kind of what we built into

the new version and

why we're really excited

to talk about it.

Yeah, thanks, Rebecca.

Yeah, I think it was almost two years ago

we came back together to reexamine

kind of what had happened

with the educator competencies.

First, to really just understand

we had released them at that point

around five years ago

and just wanted to know, like,

how have they been used in the field,

how the educators and communities

been able to utilize them

and able to help their transformation

towards a more student centered approach.

But then also,

we had an understanding that the field

had begun to focus and understand

the importance of directly

talking about equity

and the importance

of approaching education

through an equitable lens.

So we wanted to make sure

to go back and look,

how can we pull out

and make sure that

equities at the forefront.

I think in the original copy

it was there.

But nonetheless,

I think you were looking at it

through a fully equitable lens.

You might not be able

to see it at the forefront.

So we wanted to make sure

that we brought that up

in the in the work.

And then the third

just wanted to understand

how can we better

support educators

in the system, in the field

to utilize them in a more

and more actionable ways.

So thinking about whether or other ways

we can package and put the

companies together

to provide a more usable

resource for the field.

So we went through a process over

two years of doing some intense

stakeholder engagement

and doing bunches of focus groups

with a wide variety of stakeholders

and including teachers, educators, folks

that have used the document itself

previously, folks

that hadn't before state leaders,

but then also really equity and

civil rights oriented

organizations and individuals

who could really help

elevate that equity within the document

and also learners themselves,

the students that are

actually experiencing

this type of teaching

and learning to make sure

that we're portraying and putting forth

what what do they want

to experience in their learning

and make sure that their voices

are in the document.

And so in October,

we were able to kind of

culminate that with

a release of the new refresh,

educate our competencies

to hopefully be able to continue

to provide this field support

and thinking through

kind of what is that,

particularly for a team of educators

and school buildings,

and then support the broader system

to ensure that the

system aligns and our team

what they want to do,

that types of teaching and learning.

So how are we defining equity

and how and you know,

because we equity is a it's a good term,

but it's it's very difficult

sometimes when you are

when you have equity.

And then I think it's

even that much harder

to make it part of the culture. So

how are you guys going about that?

Because it's it's

much easier said than done.

Hundred percent.

And it's one of those

kind of learnings

that we did between

those two versions in that first version.

We put lots of good stuff in there,

but we actually realized

we never defined equity.

We just as as Ryan said,

like if you are already equity minded,

maybe you would see it

in the new version.

What we did is we adapted

the National Equity Project's definition

because they had already

they've done such amazing

work in this field for so long.

And they have a specific definition

where they look at

equity specifically

through an education lens.

So that's kind of was our starting point.

But then what we did from there was

we looked at all of the specific

skills, attributes, mindsets

that then could fit under that,

because just because

you have sort of a high

a high level definition doesn't

necessarily tell educators, well,

what do I do on a day to day?

And so that's kind of

what's built into the

competencies themselves.

And so what we did in this version

is we actually coded them.

So in the paper version,

there are the downloadable version,

there's little tags,

and then the digital version,

you can search just on that.

So it's really what you want to know is

how can I be learner

centered and equity minded?

You can kind of toggle it

in our interactive version

and you can see the competencies

that just focus on that.

And just I just found it.

I can't I can't recite it by heart.

But what we

the definition from national equity

projects that we use

is that educational equity

means that each child receives

what they need to develop

their unlimited academic

and social potential.

And working towards

equity in schools involves ensuring

equally high outcomes

for all participants

in the system, removing

the predictability of success or failure

that correlates with any social,

economic or cultural factor,

interrupting equity in equitable

practices, examining biases,

creating inclusive,

multicultural school

environments, and discovering

and cultivating unique gifts, talents

and interest of each

and every member

of that learning community.

That's a long definition

no longer moved everybody in academics.

That's why I don't have it memorized.

Yeah, you should look it up in the paper.

I knew we had done it. Right.

But, you know, and it's it's

one of the things that we both are

proud of and get criticized

for in the confidentially

is we are really thorough.

There's a lot in those competencies.

It's a big, deep, rich document.

But part of what we've tried to do

is break it down

so that there's lots

and lots of different ways,

different educators

at different parts of their journey

and different roles can use them.

So you don't have to

sort of start on page one

and go all the way to the end.

There's lots of different ways

to interact with them,

to test your own practice, to learn.

So and that definition

is just one of them.

You may not tackle all those pieces.

Of equity at once. Yeah.

But at least you

have that to start thinking about.

So I think it's probably

more than you asked for.

I thought being equity,

having an equity mindset,

you know, I think it

it requires

I mean, the definition said a lot,

but essentially I look at it

as a way that you have to learn how to

teach in a way that is not

necessarily straight

across the board universal.

And you have to give.

You have to give tools

that are specific

to the situation, environment,

a context that you're dealing with them

and not just say you can have one way

and one way of teaching it,

and that's it.

And expect that that's going to work

for all kids in every situation.

Right.

That's kind of my view

from what you said.

And in the summarizer, Brian,

I want to get to you

and actually ask you to jump in.

And I want to ask you

this question here, too.

How do we get from the chief of staff

point of view, how do we get

equity

minded kind of a culture to be there?

Because it's one thing to say

equity is important.

Have a check to check the box statement.

We believe in equity.

But when you look at

how how things are run,

you know, there's not

equity in and in things,

but we say we love equity

and we say these things.

But if you look at

a lot of organizations,

you don't see equitable results in

much of how things are applied.

So how do you have that?

How do you challenge your chief of staff

and folks to really

have that equity mindset?

Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Your previous point is really

you know when we think around

kind of understanding

each kid as individuals.

Like that's what we're talking about

when we're talking

about kind of student center.

Personalized learning

is understanding

that that one size fits

all kind of industrial model

where there's the teacher

at the front of the classroom

giving the instruction and everyone's

going to move on to their next class,

but really understand

that every child

shows up in a classroom with their own

individual strengths,

the things they need to work

on, their interest in supporting a system

that allows educators

to tap into that

and create the learning environments

for that.

But when when it comes to a kind

of setting and understanding

how to get an equity mindset,

I think with our work

and the center.

So we really encourage state education

agency folks and the folks that lead them

to really start internally

and understand.

What does equity mean

to you at the state?

Every state is individual.

Every state brings their own history,

their own understanding,

but really understand kind of

what does equity mean for your state

and for your staff

and really do the learning

to kind of understand

what does equity mean within your state?

A state's education is going to think

they have all the answers,

but unless they start to really

take the time to understand

what is equity mean,

where are the inequities

within their states

that they see through not only the

test scores, but just

in proportionate support

and surrounding resources.

They're making sure

that things are kind of

what is the state of their state

and thinking about kind of how

their agency can better support

a more equitable learning environment.

It really goes down

to the mindset of that

every individual child has the ability

to their biggest potential

and really making sure that they see

each child and each student

as having the strengths

and the abilities to achieve

what they're able

to and making sure

that they support a system

that allows and enables

educators to do that for them

or with them, I should say. Yeah.

Yeah.

Go ahead, Did

you want to say something Rebercca?

Well, I was just going to share

a little bit of a personal story,

because you were

you were kind enough

to kick us off earlier,

sharing a little of your background.

And I think it sort of complements

what Ryan is talking about.

And so my only sibling has Down syndrome,

and I grew up in a school system

that was actually really,

really well equipped to meet her

very specific needs.

I was kind of on the

other end of the spectrum, you know,

I'm the smarty pants researcher,

you know, had lots

and lots of kind of individual

drive and motivation and very type A

and the school system was pretty

well equipped to also serve me.

It was those huge percentage

of students in the middle

that in our particular school system,

they just kind of grouped in the middle

and got very kind of mediocre

kind of baseline,

like everybody kind of

got the same thing.

And so from a very early age,

I was really attuned to how

well my sister, even with her

profound disability,

and I arrived in a school system

that was able to meet what we need

and how fast numbers of kids

were just kind of bored and disengaged.

And so,

you know, no doubt that

that influenced the research

that I later started

being both a proponent of

and being around student centeredness.

Because

one thing that we have just

absolutely blasted out of the water

at this point, there is no it is a myth

that there is an average student.

Every single student has a diverse

set of needs and backgrounds

and interests and passions.

And so from the research standpoint

that I look most at, from the policy

standpoint that Ryan looks most at,

we're really trying to think about

how do we kind of craft

the systems that are

addressed, the fact that

every single learner has the potential

to learn at a very high button,

to learn at a very high level,

if they're given the kinds of

learner centered approaches

that we're hoping

more and more folks will use.

As time goes on. Absolutely.

I mean, I think that's

you make you make such a great point from

a couple of things.

I mean, looking at how students learn.

I shared the story with you earlier

and I've shared it

with listeners a lot of times.

I won't go into the great depths,

but a lot of people know I have ADHD.

And and in elementary school,

I struggled a whole lot.

But, you know, eventually

a light bulb went off

despite a teacher and some counselors

telling me I wouldn't go to school,

I wouldn't go to college.

I should say I did

and was very successful at it.

But I do know that,

you know, back then how they diagnosed

ADHD, you were diagnosed as a disability

like yourself is like you couldn't

do versus a learning difference.

Like it's

I'm better at listening to books

and I can absorb the.

Better than a lot of people

can reading it cover to cover.

But as long as you're learning it,

then we need to give

that to both teachers and students

the tools to learn in the way

that is receptive to the students

instead of really holding on to

this is the way we've always done it.

People have to read a book,

and that's the only way you can learn it.

That is not factual.

You can you can read.

You can listen to a book

read audible and not take notes.

And I can regurgitate what happened.

Much better than I can.

Reading the paperback

now, some people are the opposite way.

But

but now we definitely have to

we have to teach models

that where people can pivot

and not necessarily

hold on to what worked

for them or what they

they thought was the right way.

And just pivoting

and really disrupting how we teach is

very, very, very important.

I would say second

back to our early point

with when we talk about equity,

and it's been unfortunate that

some things I think

have gotten politicized.

It shouldn't be politicized.

I'll put science in that category,

then I'm next going to put education.

And when I look at it

and I think, frankly,

why it's hard to deal

with talking about equity is because now,

you know, critical race theory

and things like that

have been havee become

a political football

when they shouldn't be critical.

Race to me involves critical thinking.

So we're saying

we're going to look and understand

race from a critical perspective,

not from a simplistic point of view

or the way we've traditionally taught.

So I think as we talk about doing equity,

we have to reason why it's tough.

And I think why we have

to have it as a culture is

we have to have a culture

where people can be challenged,

specifically challenged

some of their traditional beliefs.

And that's very difficult for people

because we've now tied it in.

I think the political environment

has done no favors to us,

but we've tied this in to like

this is part of your identity,

like I must be against this

if I vote this way

and nobody could explain why,

I just have to be against it.

All right.

So like

and I think this is a huge problem.

I don't know how you guys

are tackling this,

because you obviously have to work

in a bipartisan manner

in order to get things accomplished.

But I find

I become very concerned about the way

politics is entering education

in a way that people

don't even want to address

issues that we should be talking about.

I'm curious as to how

you approach these conversations

and how we can hopefully

change this narrative.

I do. I do find it quite disturbing.

So I know that was a

challenging statement.

I said a lot, but I'll turn it over,

you guys, and just

really just get your perspective on

how do we how do we navigate

in this situation

knowing how toxic

the climate is when

you talk about anything

with race inequity,

but you still have to

you have to talk and deal with it

because it's the reality of where we live

and where we are

now.

I'll say from this episode,

I mean, we represent

all the chiefs in the country,

and what we try to do

is be that kind of our executive

editor often talked about like

that friend next to them,

helping them walk through their journey

and really be a resource for them

to make sure that they can trust us

when they come to us,

that they can trust the information

we're providing them

and what we have and invested in working

around equity more.

We built out an equity

access team at the council,

and we have a chief equity officer

and have been running

like an anti-racism

webinar series for them

and really helped to kind of be

a learning organization for them

to help them understand

the kind of history around

the intersection of racism

and our discussions with them

and really be a support to them

to help be a resource for them

as they move forward

and work individually.

You know, with the chiefs in that

these are really kind of

help them and think through,

kind of expand their thinking.

We do a lot of posing questions

to them, to them,

and to explore and really think

that really helps to try

to push their thinking around

kind of what's happening

within their respective communities.

I'm curious like so Rebecca

when people come in,

because I know there's because,

look, I've dealt with it

on the university level

and I've had multiple

ways of communicating it,

but I always did communicate

the need for equity.

I had to happen.

How do you deal with it

when you get that resistance,

when you know what

you're doing objectively

is based on the research?

But humans aren't, myself included,

aren't always rational.

We're going to go back to our

our old biases and beliefs.

And so I'm sure you've had a situation

where someone sees this

that they feel like

you're doing something

from a political lens

when it's based on research

and what's actually best for the kids.

How do you approach that situation

when it happens?

I know. I know what's happened.

Oh, yes, indeed.

I am laughing because

we're in the middle

of like three of those situations.

I'm sure in real time what you could say.

There's not a confidential.

Yeah, not let let's just say we

because we work in. Likewise.

Where, you know,

we don't cover all 50 states

the way CXO does,

but we are in very deep partnership

with blue states, red

states, purple states.

And, you know, political football,

I think is the right phrase.

We say it a lot right now, you know.

So a couple of things, Rob

I mean, we really

we as an organization

have been on our own journey

to better understand our own

diversity, equity,

inclusion, justice,

both external positioning and internally.

How do we support staff?

How do we talk to each other?

What kinds of systems do we have?

So we're we're in the middle

of a pretty deep journey ourselves.

And what that's doing is it's

giving us more clarity on

our values.

And what do we who

who do we want to be

as an organization in the field?

And so what we try to do

can't always do it,

but we try to start

from that position and say,

this is who we are,

this is what we believe in.

This is the kinds of education

transformation we're working for.

If you want to work with us,

just know that that's

what you're going to get. Right.

And so in some ways,

because we're talking about concepts

like competency based

education and performance assessment

and sort of all these

wonderful ways of

starting to understand learning

that we think are apolitical

but become very political.

You know, so from a certain standpoint,

we're trying to navigate that by saying,

here's who we are.

Yeah, this is this is what we stand for.

Now, we have lots of love.

We've been around for over 20 years now.

So lots of folks have known us

in different places from different ways.

So so they know you get

to ask those questions.

You know, and I you know,

I've been writing about

and speaking about student

centered research for years.

And I don't always speak to,

you know, audience

like you said, like Bill, I've gotten

will any challenge.

I mean, you're going to

and I think you're going to it's

going to continue more.

What I tend to do

is, you know, especially

if it's somebody I know.

But even if it's not, I try to get

an understanding of

where do they base their values on.

There are some people that you

that you can't agree with that

they're just there like but

generally speaking,

people have some basis of values

that they follow.

And I work to try

to get them to understand

that this is coming from

their values perspective.

This is not coming

from a different values perspective.

But then then then you follow.

And generally, that's been successful,

having people understand

where they come from

and communicate and just get them to

really just think about it,

not necessarily attacking them to say

like your race is your bias,

but getting them to understand

their perspective

and then seeing this perspective

in a way that reflects their values,

often works.

That's that's usually what I do

when I deal with people

that have a different perspective

or just automatically are,

you know, against critical race theory

without actually understanding

what critical race theory is,

because I think we have

to work individually

to get ourselves past

this collective madness

that is going on,

because it is collective madness

that is going on

right now in our society.

And I think a lot of it is fueled

by how social media

and things work at this time.

But I do think it's very important.

Let let's switch

the topic a little bit and go to

actually I want to talk about

related to that topic,

but a little bit

to talk about the pandemic

and the effect that's had on your work

and how you've seen

that kind of play out.

So just in general,

the pandemic, I think,

has done several things. I think it's

it's created a a

new normal in some ways

in terms of how humans

and how we interact.

I think there will always

be an urge to have face to face.

But I also think now, you know,

what we're doing now

digitally is now commonplace.

It's just as common to to have

a zoom meeting as it is to

if you need to look up information

to Google like a zoom

and Google are like now terms,

we can kind of have together.

That's because of the pandemic now.

And people have meetings now.

I'm sure the whole policies have changed

in terms of how people meet people.

Now, thought you couldn't do that.

You had to meet in person.

You had to have some

strategy meetings in person, you know.

So we've learned.

We've changed, but education,

I'm sure, has had some challenges.

What have you

what have you seen

as the challenges and the opportunities

in this moment with the pandemic,

with the work that you guys are doing?

I think one of the things we've seen

and even connected to that

educator Comess, is

an understanding that the current system,

like it was a stress test

in a way that the pandemic

and what we've learned

is that really this

type of model doesn't work, can't work.

And so we've seen

a real interest from states,

but also

around kind of looking

at education in a new way.

And I think that's what

the kind of benefit has been.

It exposed the inequities

within our system to everyone

and really force everyone

to look at kind of how we're doing school

and seeing the challenges

that this model has taken.

And what we've seen

and what I've heard from the folks

I work with at our schools,

that we're already on this model

that understood and

empowered their learners

to own their learning.

They have the relationships

with their students already

and saw them as

individuals and understood

what they show up

in the classroom

and that they were able

to transition to this model

to have this kind of hybrid

remote learning model

a lot more smoothly

than some of the more

traditional education schools.

And so we want to take

advantage of that and highlight

that and illustrate

that there is a new model

that's out there

that's been around for a while

that state school districts can look to

as enabling more empowerment

of their learners

so they don't have to be

in front of them at all times

and know that they're learning.

But also that builds

those strong relationships

with a learner.

And even through the work,

we finish this project

through the end of the pandemic

and had this shift and integrated

kind of the importance

of social emotional learning

in the competencies,

because we saw it as such and elevated

our focus that school

and the system we're looking at,

but also not just the social

emotional effects of the limits,

but the educators themselves

and ensuring that they're supportive

and are able to kind of show up

their best selves in order

to support the learning of their students

or really kind of

exposing the inequities

that were already there

and that were hidden for some people.

But yeah, exactly said that.

Right. And for some people.

Because they didn't see it, correct?

Exactly.

So it really exposed the system.

And I think the hope is that

the field is looking for

kind of a new system.

And luckily, there have been folks

that have been working in that field

for a while that can point to it.

And so folks aren't

just starting from scratch

now that we're slowly

moving out of the pandemic.

Yeah, I think, you know, Rebecca,

as we look at this year,

some some see this as a loss year

for a lot of students right in there.

And, you know, personally,

my home with son is even even

with resources, difficult

depending on who you are.

Like remote is challenging for some kids.

Some kids remote is just bad for it.

I mean, you can have the best engagement

you can, but some kids just absolutely

remote is just not it.

You know, but that being said,

if you don't have resources

and you are already

challenged, as as Ryan said,

you saw a lot you saw a really dramatic

kind of setback for a lot of people.

What do you see as our opportunity here

like that going forward?

Like what? What, what, what, what, what

gives you hope that we're going

to get better from this moment

and actually grow?

Because we know of the drastic

kind of things that happen.

I'm sure that I'm sure

you've seen the numbers.

And there was this was

this was a

this was a really challenging year

for learning for everyone.

Like what what can we take away?

Like if there's something specifically

you can point to that

some of the work that you guys is doing

could help folks.

I would love to hear

about what you see

as a kind of a hopeful course

going forward from this moment

with the pandemic.

So I see a lot to hope for

and a lot of what Ryan

was just saying it.

So we've been at this work again

for close to a decade,

and this was a pretty massive reset.

And yeah,

that's another story.

You know, there's a little bit

you know, there's that little piece of me

that's kind of like told you so.

So like if we had been paying attention

to individual learner

needs to social, emotional,

to relationships, to the whole

there's the horrible lack of equity

in our schools, things that Ryan and I

and our organizations

have been talking about,

screaming about,

writing about, researching

about for years.

We would have been in

a very different place in this pandemic.

And so I while the numbers are staggering

and horrifying right now,

there's

the hope and the optimism I have

is that there are fewer people

who think it's OK to go back to normal.

There's a lot more

talking about a new normal

or how are we going to reinvent or

what have we learned

from this pandemic moment

that we want to keep?

Because things like paying attention

to social, emotional, paying attention

to relationships,

I mean, there there has been no bigger

kind of proof point

at this point

that would have been possible

given the massive disruption

of so many students lives, parents lives.

And for so long we've been saying

look at how different every learner is.

And we all have now or many case studies.

I mean, you have children who are home.

I had to siblings

my two children who are siblings,

same parents, same household

like super different experience of remote

learning and pandemic

and what each one of them needed

and how they each

found ways to socialize.

And we were extremely fortunate

that they were able

to adapt to remote setting.

But then kids, two houses down

in a similar school system

could not adapt to the remote setting.

So

while it means we have a

just unbelievable

set of needs of students

and trauma and academics to figure out,

I don't think anybody can argue anymore

that there's this

oh, if we just all give everybody

the same thing, it'll be OK.

Yeah.

And with that and no one's going to argue

about how valuable

I don't think at least

at least anytime soon,

about how valuable teachers are.

And you have to

you had to go to be a

teacher for yourself.

Oh, my God. Like this is work.

And as Ryan said, I mean,

if you had a relationship with a school

and with a teacher,

you tended to do better.

You tended to stay connected.

So why wouldn't we pay attention

to things like relationships?

Why wouldn't we privilege

those as much as academics

because they are so tightly connected?

And one one more thing

that gave me a little

bit of hope, and we don't

we don't have enough numbers about this,

but talking to friends in the field whose

school networks served

some of our most marginalized students

and just, you know, some of the anecdotes

we were able to pull out of

the field is for some youth

who going to school was already

a traumatic experience,

who are already facing bias

and cultural negativity every day.

For some of those students,

being able to disengage for that

gave them the time

that they'd never had

to actually celebrate their own

learning and learning in their own way

because some student

it was better for for some it was better.

And we have a not there again.

I'm I'm eager for those right now.

I know, again, it does not negate

the many, many, many losses,

the trauma of the time,

the losses of relationships.

But I think it just points

to the fact that one size

is never going to see exactly

if it's the opportunity for

there should be some

remote learning opportunities for

for some students in some ways,

because if it works, do that time,

they are improving

their remote offerings.

We are seeing states

that are looking

at a more competency based framework

so that you're not

not all about learning loss.

I'm trying very hard to avoid that term,

because what you know

against who benchmarked

against what I mean,

we need to really understand.

That's a fair point.

What did you learn

and how do we help you get back on track?

And so exactly something

that a competency based system

can do a lot more than

one standardized test.

And either you met it or you didn't.

I mean, let's find out

until they get standardized tests.

You're preaching to the converted here.

I was horrible at standardized tests.

Ironically, I got to law school Right.

Right.

Once I got to law school,

eventually I actually

I failed the bar the first time.

The second time I got one of the highest

scores in the state.

I figured out the hack in my.

Brain to figure out

how to do standardized test,

but that that's better law.

I did, but I didn't make exactally

I didn't learn better.

I figured out how to take a test better.

And that's not learning.

We have to

we have to really get around like I can

I can have a whole podcast

about standardized tests.

And we're seeing some openings

for that conversation, too.

So that's another place that I'm feeling

hopeful coming out of the pandemic

is some realization that

maybe those tests.

And we absolutely

we need to know benchmarking.

We need to know.

Oh, yeah.

Well, there's multiple ways to do

kind of standardized way.

But let's open up

that definition a little bit more

to really think about.

How do you measure learning?

Oh, absolutely. And you know what?

When you talk about learning loss

and I want to move on to something else,

I think that I think

my biggest concern is

for kids

that were just starting high school

and they had a really bad year

in terms of their grades.

How is that going to be

viewed from colleges?

And to me, colleges and universities

need to probably get some grace

for this year for that

for twenty twenty, twenty one.

And just say this was just a unique time.

And so I'm hoping that

that's that's going to be

part of the consideration.

And that's really what I

that's that's my biggest concern,

because the other stuff,

if you're not in high school,

it's probably you can

probably you'll be OK

is not being counted against you.

But when you did poorly in this year,

that counts against you

in a cumulative way.

So that's kind of my only God.

That's my only concern

as one of my biggest concerns.

And so how is that going to be viewed?

I mean, the other concern I have is

what about the emotional component?

Let's dive into that a little bit,

because I'm interested

to hear about that.

You know, there was the

emotional component of

of not being able to be around.

People were tribal by nature,

so that that did something

to do something to me.

So I imagine it did something to kids.

And then,

you know,

if you're black in this country,

you or brown and you

and you saw what was happening,

this is not new to you.

It's been happening all the time,

but in a way that was just

more transparent

and just kind of

because even when you have things

that are happening in

an unjust way on a regular basis,

people like to escape from it,

not to think about it all the time,

because then that becomes

your only reality.

But when things happened

with George Floyd, Amed Aubrey,

Brianna Taylor, so on and so forth,

I can go through a lot of names. And

I mean, it was really

traumatic, traumatic for me.

And I imagine it's traumatic for our kids

in our schools that are

going through this.

So how did you

what did you learn from this moment

and how did you talk to your

you know, for Ryan,

for your point of view?

How did you talk to the chief of staff?

And then from you know, Rebecca,

how did you figure out how to put that

into a policy perspective

in dealing with this emotional trauma,

just dealing with

this emotional trauma in general,

and how that was

something you could learn

from or expand from,

given what just happened?

Yeah, I mean, I think,

you know, work really put an emphasis on,

you know, identifying

and talking about that.

Our system needs to talk about

kind of what is what is

and identify both the macro

trauma that occurs,

but then also the micro trauma

for individual students.

And so I think throughout

that kind of this project

we worked on and throughout

is really putting

an emphasis on the importance

of that social emotional relationship

that educators have with their students

and making sure that they understand

kind of who they are

as individuals,

how can they bring their community

into the classroom

and kind of making sure

that they're building an environment

that a student is does

feel safe and feel seen,

because we know from the science

of learning and development

that in order for a student

to be able to learn best,

they need to feel safe and secure

and have adults around them

that believe and support them.

So, you know, with our work,

we're just trying

to emphasize the importance

of the kind of well-being

for students and putting out

resources that will allow states to work

with districts in the school

to think about how to create

environments where

there is more well-being

for their students and their educators,

and to ensure that as we move

through this moment

to understand the trauma

that we've all collectively felt

and then some far greater than others,

to really understand

how to create an environment

that well, as we continue

to move back into the classrooms

or think about

learning in different ways,

that puts an emphasis

on the child and educator as well being.

I think we've seen obviously

it's a lot more focused

on academic and academic success

except but we've seen

that we're starting already,

but I think really accelerated

during the pandemic,

a real emphasis on kind of the students

well-being and ensuring

you have a system

in a school that supports

kind of the whole child

and ensures that they're able

to thrive to their best ability

in an environment

that is supportive of them

and their individual

needs, their strengths,

and kind of kind of what makes them them.

Yeah. Rebecca.

So I think what Ryan

said was just spot on, and I think for us

and in some ways in particular

with this project, it.

It

enabled us to.

To

be more

clear and transparent

than we had in the past. Yeah.

Look at what you're saying

is no different from what

I experienced either,

and I'll say it more and more, frankly.

Right.

When talking to white Americans,

it was easier to have

a conversation about race. Exactly.

And from the understand

that this is not something

that I was overexaggerating, making up,

because people it's hard to deny it .

Right. So no matter where you came from.

So it became impossible.

So the conversations

I've never had more conversations

with my white counterparts about race.

And I'm hoping that there is a moment

where we actually like

we we expand and have real impact

to where we are.

I'm happy to see people

with their diversity statements.

I'm happy to see people say

black lives matter, kind of.

But at the end of day life,

what really matters to me

more is what policy changes

are you going to do?

What practices are you going to change?

How are you going to make sure

we have more equitable results

across the board

that I care about,

that more words do matter.

So I'm not going to say

they don't matter.

But what what really matters

is substance to back up

what you say as well.

And from organizational standpoint,

what it I mean, naming it again,

we earlier were talking

about definitions, not just kind of set.

I mean, equity at

this point has almost become

almost a fluff term. I mean, I would.

But but really naming.

What do you mean and for whom and where?

And then in and of my sphere

here, it's then.

Well, then

how do you measure the impact of it?

How do you surface it

in a way that we can show

what is happening

to black and brown bodies

so that we can show if we are thinking

about student centered learning,

we can show that, in fact,

it is helping to close

gaps and open opportunities

rather than exacerbate them. Yeah.

So for for, you know, from

a very sort of organizational operational

standpoint, it has given us

more clarity and more

necessity of naming it

and being clear about

what are we going to do about it.

And so, you know,

and then I also think it's sort of a very

personal level.

You know, I I'm a white person.

I did not experience it personally, but

had children who are of an age

to understand the news.

And so there were daily conversations.

There were.

How are their schools handling it?

So and again, this was something

that, you know, in in

twelve years of having one child

and nine of it like

it was it has never been this explicit,

which I take as a really positive sign,

because if you can't talk about it

and you can't name it and you can't

measure it, then you're never

going to be able to change.

Absolutely. Absolutely not.

Yeah.

When you avoid a problem,

the problem grows.

If you try to avoid dealing

with your suffering,

your suffering increases. You don't.

You got it. You got to deal with it.

And this has been

the single biggest challenge

with dealing with race

and equity in this country

is that the way to address

it is to not deal with it

or pretend as if it doesn't exist,

which always makes the problem worse.

You got you got to

you got to really have an

acknowledgment of the issue

before you can address it.

And I think that's been a major problem

for us

collectively as Americans

has been our one of our greatest,

if not the greatest kind of our block.

We've just had that

kind of it's been like

our emotional block

that we just don't want to deal with.

But but the pandemic,

you know, made people deal

with a lot of things

that they previously had ignored.

And so I do think there is hope

in this opportunity

that people can see this moment

and want to make sure

that we are better for it

and not and not repeat

some of the same inequities

and systems

that have failed us in the past.

Final question

as we kind of wrap up here,

what does what you have

your vision of success?

However, we can bring this out

10, 15 years from now.

What does success look like?

Every educator in

every system in the country

is using the educator competencies

for personalized learning center.

I mean, I think,

you know,

I hate to be Pollyanna ish,

but if we were doing

what is in those competencies,

we would have a very,

very different system

of education with very

different outcomes.

In particular, to marginalize students

and just, you know that and ensure

that every student

just have a positive

experience at school that enables them

to develop themselves

to their fullest individual.

And I think if educators and our system

move towards this more

personalized system

that emphasizes individuals

with their strengths,

what they need to work on their

their backgrounds, their communities,

more students will have

positive experiences

in schools that will enable them

to be successful

as they move on into their adulthood

when each kid to love learning.

Yeah.

Ryan MacDonald, Rebecca Wolfe,

it's been a pleasure having you on.

Love to have you guys on again.

Appreciate you coming on disruption.

Thank you, Rob. Thank you.