Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In this episode, we discuss Hulu’s “The Scream Murder: A True Teen Horror Story” and the heartbreaking case of Cassie Stoddard. We get into the psychology behind teen violence — how impulsivity, peer pressure, and brain development can all play a role in extreme decisions.
We also talk about how the justice system handles juvenile offenders, and whether punishment or rehabilitation makes more sense in cases like this. Along the way, we touch on mental health, parenting, and how early intervention could help prevent tragedies like this from happening in the first place.
We also talk about how the justice system handles juvenile offenders, and whether punishment or rehabilitation makes more sense in cases like this. Along the way, we touch on mental health, parenting, and how early intervention could help prevent tragedies like this from happening in the first place.
Creators and Guests
Host
What is The Shrink Down?
Four lifelong friends, all clinical psychologists, unpack the latest in current events, pop culture and celebrity news through the lens of psychology.
Vanessa (00:00.844)
Welcome back to the Shrink Down. For all of you who are caught up on our episodes, you might be wondering where we've been. Well, we had some time off. First, it started with our trip, our annual girls trip. So we went to Charleston this year. And then it was spring break. And of course, none of our spring breaks align. So we just had a couple of weeks where we just took off to just do vacation, hang out with our families. And yeah, and now we're back. So fun to be back. And today's topic is...
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (00:16.302)
Nope.
Vanessa (00:30.442)
is one that we came up with while we were on our trip. So on our first night out, we had all been traveling and the weather wasn't great. So we thought, you know what, let's just stay in and watch something. And I don't know how we landed on this. But we ended up watching the Hulu documentary called The Scream Murder. It's a true teen horror story. So this was about the 2006.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (00:44.802)
I don't either.
Vanessa (00:55.06)
murder of Cassie Jo Stoddard and she, was this murder involved two of her classmates. And so we watched this, which I know it's kind of funny to say that we watched this on our girls trip. But it was a really great documentary and it brought up a lot of questions for us, you know, about teens involvement in murders. And so some of the questions were, why do teens commit murder? How does this differ from adults?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (01:03.596)
you
Vanessa (01:22.67)
and other questions like, what is an appropriate sentence for a teen? And so we're gonna be delving into all of that today. But before we get started, we're gonna do our four minute fades. It's been a while, who would like to go first?
Teri (01:29.37)
Thank
Wilhelmina (01:35.592)
Yeah. I can get, we're all ready to go.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (01:37.624)
I'll go. I'm in. Okay. I will say, and just to kind of show our range, we also watched America's Next Top Model documentary. you know, we were like totally into the murder and the psychology. Yeah, we really do. Which is what prompted America's Next Top Model documentary.
Vanessa (01:41.848)
Go Lauren.
Vanessa (01:46.07)
We did. We go the whole gamut. And none of us slept, by the way. The next night we were all like, did you sleep well? And I was like, no, I did not sleep well.
Wilhelmina (01:46.674)
Yes. Yes.
Murder and models, I mean.
Wilhelmina (01:59.967)
I was gonna-
Wilhelmina (02:03.922)
gonna say I do not recommend watching that documentary the first night in a new Airbnb where I literally I was like is that the door opening is that the door opening
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:07.135)
No.
in an Airbnb in an unfamiliar town, right?
Vanessa (02:10.326)
No. Yeah. I know I, the only reason I ended up falling asleep was because I was sleeping in the loft and you had to literally walk by Lauren and Terry sleeping and in my head I was like, well, they'll go first and I'm sure they'll make some noise. So I'm going to fall asleep now.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:22.574)
They'll go first.
Teri (02:24.354)
We like.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:26.232)
you
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (02:31.364)
So yes, switching gears, four minute fave. So mine, am in inadvertently into all things space and space travel right now. If you guys have been watching when we're recording this, the Artemis two people just came back from their like little journey. But yeah, oddly before all of that took place in the last couple of weeks and actually on vacation, I started. So I have two recommendations that are like, you know, strongly related. I started Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid.
Wilhelmina (02:41.544)
No.
Teri (02:41.572)
Vanessa (02:46.038)
Yes, we watched the takeoff.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (03:02.212)
Excellent, space story, love story. But yeah, it's set in the 80s when the NASA program was, you know, so big into the, you know, the space program and the travel and things like that. With the female as the main character, it's really good. And then when I finished that, like right when I finished that, project Hail Mary came out with Ryan Gosling. Have you seen it? Have you seen? my God.
Wilhelmina (03:26.066)
That's my fave. That's my fave.
Teri (03:27.514)
I haven't yet. I haven't seen it yet.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (03:28.932)
Okay, so you go next. I'm not gonna say a whole lot about it other than I was like, how, and then the Artemis people, I was like, whoa, like, I am like loving all of this like new interest in space exploration and travel or whatever. So the book and the movie, very different. my gosh, the movie was so good. I took my boys. It is incredibly family friendly. I went into it, you know, knowing the book, it's based on a book.
Wilhelmina (03:34.791)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (03:49.064)
So good, so good.
Teri (03:50.33)
I'm not a spirit.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (03:58.34)
Project Tale Mary, but not I had to make sure that it was going to be appropriate for kids. I just wasn't exactly sure how they were going to convert it into a movie. It's our favorite movie of the year so far. Like we just absolutely all of us loved it and couldn't stop talking about it. And there's a song that's we've throughout it and like we kept like, you know, singing the song like in our heads, like it was just like part of like all of us in the last few weeks. So
I'm going to let Wilhelmina talk more about it. like, if you're like into the Artemis stuff and you want to go back and like, you know, do a little, I don't know, space exploration of your own, the book Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid is excellent. And then movie Project Hail Mary. Go ahead, Wilhelmina, tell us more.
Wilhelmina (04:40.87)
And actually the movie, Project Hail Mary, is based on a book and the book is also phenomenal. So I had read the book several years ago.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (04:44.546)
Yes. Right. Yes. Right. Same. I just wasn't sure how they were going to convert it since it was a while back that I read it. But yeah, go ahead.
Wilhelmina (04:53.212)
I
Well, because there is, there's a lot of math in the book. so yeah, we went to see Project Hail Mary during spring break, one of the rainy days later afternoons, and we all loved it as well. I mean, Ryan Gosling, this film hinges on the fact, mean, he is, everyone knows that he is literally he can do no wrong, but his charm, his charisma,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (04:57.93)
Yeah, I just wasn't sure. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:16.546)
He's your fave.
Vanessa (05:18.347)
You
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:25.06)
good. And he's essentially acting on his own the entire time, which is incredible. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (05:25.298)
He like carries the film. I mean, he really just does.
Yeah. And he he said that he had his kids record the he he has a friendship with an alien during in the movie. And obviously, he's not actually acting with someone. So a lot of his scene partners like he would have his kids read that dialogue. So he had genuine reactions to like what the what the other character was saying.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:40.76)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (05:55.46)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (05:59.601)
And actually, it's funny that we both took our kids because Ryan Gosling bought the rights to this movie before the book was even out. And yes, and he wanted to make a film that was kind of like an ET that was hopeful and everyone could go see it. So it was good for the whole family. And then I did see that it said, like, go see this with your kids. And it was this reel that said,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:02.83)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:08.364)
Yes, I heard this like a decade ago. Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:19.448)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (06:29.446)
It talks about how science is a superpower and problem solving mindset in terms of all of the issues that came up throughout it and ways to sort of, how do we approach this and trial and error? And it's just really good. It's so, the friendship between the two and it'll make you cry, it'll make you tear up, really does provide just a good story of hope.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:32.067)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (06:44.27)
So good, yeah.
Wilhelmina (06:58.886)
and very relevant to the time. I think something, yes, yes. So yeah, highly recommend.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:03.064)
Yeah, it's very much in the zeitgeist. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:09.528)
Yeah, I agree.
Wilhelmina (07:11.792)
And also there was not a lot of like CGI or he tried to do everything with he didn't want to just have a big giant green screen with stuff. So everything he could do.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:15.308)
Hmm. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:22.882)
Yeah, it was real sets. I know, it's cool.
Wilhelmina (07:27.516)
Okay, Terry.
Vanessa (07:28.686)
Terry, what do you got?
Teri (07:30.554)
Mine is the book, I don't know if some of you might have read this already, A Marriage at Sea. No? Okay. So it's by Sophie Elmhurst, but Elmhurst with an I for those of us who live in the Chicagoland area, Elmhurst with an I. Or you. And A Marriage at Sea, it's a true story of this couple in the early 1970s, sort of living on the fringe of society, but also this is very 70s-esque.
Wilhelmina (07:37.096)
Mm-mm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:37.399)
No.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (07:44.122)
yeah, that's I would have thought E. Okay. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (07:44.126)
you
Teri (07:59.938)
decide to sail for like months and months. Like they're from England, they're English couples, this is real couple. And their boat gets, this happens right in beginning, I'm not ruining anything, their boat gets hit by a whale, their little boat in sinks. They then have to survive on their raft and dinghy for I think four months, four or five months. And they both like just died in the last, I don't know, 10 or 15 years. And a woman, a journalist stumbled upon their story and wrote this book.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:05.166)
Mm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:20.418)
Wow.
Teri (08:29.784)
based on the diary the woman kept while they were at sea. So it's really interesting. I had seen it recommended from a couple different places and it been on my to read list. And truthfully, I was avoiding it because it actually, I know that sounds interesting. It sort of sounded a little boring to me. I was like, all right, they're trapped on a boat, whatever. They had to survive.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:31.886)
Huh. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:47.588)
Yeah.
Vanessa (08:47.702)
you
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (08:50.372)
castaway. Right.
Teri (08:52.794)
Then I was at a bookstore right before we left for spring break and the woman working at the bookstore, our local bookstore, No Park, one of them, she said, she's like, it's so good. Like, just give it a try. Like, fine, fine, fine. I purposely was the only book I brought with me on spring break. So I had no choice. And I finished it before I think I finished it in two days, two or three days. And it's not it's not it's not super thick. And I'm a fan. Yeah. And I will say I'm typically a pretty fast reader. So readable, very interesting.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:02.788)
Funny, yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:08.132)
Yeah. Yep.
Wilhelmina (09:13.82)
Well, you're a fast reader, too.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:14.5)
Fun. Yeah.
Teri (09:23.466)
I about every hour when I was reading, would stop and look at my husband and be like, I can't believe they lived through this. So it's, it's really crazy. Yeah. It's a true story of love, obsession and shipwreck because the yeah, think so. Published in 24, 2024. Yeah. So very good. A marriage at sea. Very readable. Highly recommend.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (09:35.926)
Is it a newer book though? Like it's a newer book but based on... I'm just curious. Yeah, okay, okay.
Vanessa (09:41.198)
and old street. Oh yeah, it's pretty nice.
Wilhelmina (09:47.679)
How does it compare to, do you remember we read Unbroken? Those many years ago, I remember we were in a different book club and we, but that it's like this guy in war and their plane crashed. And so then there was like sharks and he survived, but then he got taken by like into a prison camp. It's a true story. It's about a guy that like survived all of this stuff. Yes. Because I,
Teri (10:12.41)
And I read this? I read this?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:14.884)
Sounds a little different.
Vanessa (10:15.406)
It must have been a good one.
Teri (10:17.472)
I'm gonna say this is better than.
Wilhelmina (10:18.342)
Ha!
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:20.806)
Right, right, right.
Wilhelmina (10:21.662)
It was made into a movie too. Like, I don't know if was Clint Eastwood or... Yes.
Teri (10:26.456)
You know what'll happen? I'll wake up in the middle of the night and go, aha, I do remember it. So yes, I'll let you know.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:29.496)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (10:31.57)
Well, and I remember it because I didn't read it because I had just had Maddie. That's the book club I took Maddie to as a newborn. And you guys talked about the book and I was like, well, this does sound good. But I, so then I actually went back and read it because you guys, yes. Okay.
Vanessa (10:32.686)
you
Teri (10:45.826)
I remember that. Yes, yes. Okay. Very good.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (10:48.516)
That's funny.
Vanessa (10:49.72)
So funny.
Wilhelmina (10:49.963)
But that I was like, all of the shark stuff and all of that I was like, how did God.
Teri (10:54.126)
Yes, it's so interesting.
Wilhelmina (10:57.298)
I'm surprised that honestly, both of them survived in the marriage. Like, I feel like one of them would have been like, I'm done with you. Like, two months in, I want more space in the room.
Vanessa (11:02.727)
Hahaha
Teri (11:03.054)
There, I believe, there were some undi... There are some traits I was picking up on. You know, this is our understanding of diagnoses and was different in the 70s and 80s. So there were some traits I was picking up on in the book. So, yeah. Yeah. That's good. How about you, Vanessa?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:03.534)
Push them off the raft.
Wilhelmina (11:16.05)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:18.51)
Right.
Wilhelmina (11:20.84)
Got it. Now I want to pick this up. I want to read this.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:21.056)
Okay. Hmm. Yeah, sounds good.
Vanessa (11:23.095)
Interesting.
Vanessa (11:27.63)
So I, for our fave today, or my fave today, I actually, I mentioned this when we were getting on, I'm going to talk about not a book or a movie, but something that we did on our trip that I thought was fun to share because we did this now for the second time. So we did this for our Charlotte trip and now we did it for our Charleston trip as we went out and decided when we got home, we went out, we went out. We usually have one night where we like,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:38.979)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (11:43.896)
We did.
Wilhelmina (11:49.086)
Literally went out.
Vanessa (11:56.523)
actually go out after dinner and like, you know, get drinks or whatever.
Teri (11:57.655)
You girls were troopers because I was sleeping on the couch when you got back. Go ahead.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:01.653)
we were asleep. Terry and I were asleep. Yeah.
Vanessa (12:03.63)
So we were like, we want to get snacks. Like, so we came back, so we had drinks and we were like, ready for some snacks. And so we thought insomnia cookies again. So we went for round two of insomnia cookies. So that's going to be my favorite today because it was another, it was another good one and it was, it was a good experience. Well, sort of the cookies were good. They're always good. So we decided at, I don't know what time it was one o'clock, 1230. So yeah.
Wilhelmina (12:26.238)
It was like, it was late. We were all in our PJs. I feel like.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:27.684)
We were definitely, Terry and I were asleep on the couch. We're like, best of luck.
Vanessa (12:30.348)
Well, we were in, well, no, you didn't fall asleep right away. So what happened is we ordered it. We ordered it for delivery because they offered delivery and it just, the time kept changing. And it was literally around the corner from the Airbnb that we had. So at some point we were like, maybe we just should go get them. So Wilhelmina and I in our pajamas went.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:42.414)
That's right.
Wilhelmina (12:55.368)
and I had some zip patches on, was like, get ready for bed.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (12:57.956)
Hahaha!
Vanessa (13:00.332)
So we went out and we picked up the cookies and then we actually stopped and got some other snacks at a thing. We laughed hysterically at ourselves and the situation that we were in, but we brought the cookies back. So I would say, insomnia cookies for the win again, they were very delicious. was another fun treat, but I will say it was worth the trek. was literally around the corner from our place. They're really good cookies. They're warm and they were packed in there, which was...
Wilhelmina (13:20.914)
worth the trek out there.
Teri (13:23.098)
They're They're good cookies.
Teri (13:28.058)
They're
Vanessa (13:29.966)
crazy. It was totally packed. It just so happened when we went to go get the cookies, all the bars closed. So like all the young adults were like coming out into the street and well, I mean, and I are like stomping down the street, our pajamas, Oh my gosh. Yes. And then Willie and I were doubled over cackling on the street. So yeah, so
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (13:36.301)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (13:39.812)
You
Wilhelmina (13:42.238)
Just two middle-aged women going out in their PJs to get some cookies at two in the morning, one in the morning, whatever it was.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (13:47.46)
You
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (13:52.228)
you
Vanessa (13:59.341)
Insomnia Cookies for the win again, I will say this was their delivery service is not great. We had not a great experience the last time with the delivery service. So I will say if you can go get them yourself, I would highly recommend going to pick them up yourself. But I guess they're they're everywhere. And yeah, so Insomnia Cookies, I'm going to say if you're ever in need of a late night treats, their cookies are very tasty and they have lots of different flavors. So that's my share for today.
Wilhelmina (14:04.06)
Yeah, I recommend.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:04.27)
Yeah, it's second time.
Wilhelmina (14:25.724)
I think they're better than crumble for anyone who has crumble cookies near them.
Teri (14:28.395)
I agree. Crumble is good, it's so heavy.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:29.198)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (14:30.312)
Like I just, yeah, I was about to say that. They're just massive. And I did, I do appreciate that, like the Insomnia cookies, I think they had two different sizes, like you can get like a small cookie and it not be, I don't know how many calories are in the crumble, they say like 6,000, something crazy. Yeah. So yes. Yeah. It's a very different experience.
Wilhelmina (14:32.625)
It's so happy.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:32.74)
They're so big. yeah. They're huge.
Teri (14:34.786)
Yeah, yes.
Teri (14:42.412)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (14:46.266)
Literally like thousands and thousands. Yeah, they're so dense. They're like mini cakes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:47.308)
Yeah, well you're not thinking about it when you're eating those. Yeah, no.
Wilhelmina (14:51.933)
when
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (14:54.116)
huh. It's a different, yeah.
Wilhelmina (14:54.29)
They are, they are. And when I first tasted Grumble Cookie, I thought they tasted delicious. I actually think they've done something different with their recipe because now I don't think they are. I'm like, nope.
Teri (15:03.758)
Yes. Yes. I agree with you a hundred percent. Yep. They did. I, they switched something. Yes.
Vanessa (15:04.333)
Mm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (15:06.19)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (15:08.082)
but crumb- but- Amniya still tastes good.
Vanessa (15:10.926)
Yeah, they were as good as I remember from it. Yeah, and it was so busy in there. was like, wow. This is like... my gosh, nobody in there was like coherent. It smelled like weed in there, like so bad. was like, woo.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (15:16.995)
I know.
Wilhelmina (15:17.24)
literally like ducking my head. I'm like, we have the cookie order. No one cared. Everyone was drunk. We saw some guys throwing up on the sidewalk. We're like, okay.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (15:32.325)
my-
Teri (15:33.964)
that'd be the place to go after. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (15:35.967)
There will be,
Vanessa (15:37.839)
Yeah, everyone was going out from the bar there or wherever else they were. It was actually a hookah bar too. Yeah, yeah, that's why it was so busy. Yeah, they closed all the streets. So anyway, it was a good trip. It was good fun. Speaking of the trip, I mentioned earlier that we watched this documentary, which led us to the topic for today. So again, this was the Hulu documentary, The Scream Murder, a True Teen Horror Story. And I will say the documentary itself was so well done. Like we all talked about how good this documentary was.
Wilhelmina (15:41.182)
Well, then we realized the street was closed, which is why there was no caps. Yeah, or whatever.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (16:04.866)
Yeah.
Vanessa (16:07.694)
And they did a really good job, I think, of getting you to feel empathy for these two teens and also the victim, right? And it leaves you questioning, you know, why would somebody, why would a teen who, you know, given their background kind of follow this path and this is where, you know, what happened?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (16:18.094)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (16:29.778)
and also I think the other big one for us was their sentencing, you know, was it fair? And again, I think this documentary really built it up so that you started to feel sorry for some of the people involved and wondering, you know, was that, was, is that fair? Is it not fair? And, know, it's somebody's life that's taken, it's family that's been altered. So there's all these questions that, the movie brought up and we've, we discussed some of them. So.
Wilhelmina (16:56.86)
Well, and just a quick summary of the for anyone who doesn't know the story. I hadn't known the story until we watched the documentary, but it was this girl was stabbed and murdered in a house that she was house sitting for. And it eventually it didn't take too long to come to find their murder, her her murders, which were two teenage boys. They were actually friends of hers.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (17:00.04)
Yeah.
Vanessa (17:04.642)
I hadn't either.
Teri (17:05.934)
Yeah, same.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (17:17.89)
Mm-mm.
Vanessa (17:24.472)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (17:24.562)
They had actually been with her that evening. They had left and then they'd actually snuck back into the house and ended up stabbing her many, many times. the most, yes, so then they ended up finding a tape that these boys had made, that it was all planned ahead of time. They actually had found a different girl that they were gonna go after. Multiple, multiple, they had a list.
Teri (17:35.054)
And this was premeditated.
Vanessa (17:37.187)
this one.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (17:37.379)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (17:46.455)
multiple. think it was, I mean, the sense I got from the premeditation is that they wanted to do it to someone. Like they didn't really know who they were looking for. Yeah, they were looking for the opportunity. So, but it was premeditating the sense that like they were looking to do this, right? And she then became this.
Wilhelmina (17:52.595)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (17:53.252)
They were looking for the opportunity.
Wilhelmina (17:56.243)
sort of opportunity and opportunity to aim there.
Teri (18:02.276)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (18:07.45)
they knew they would have access to her. And then that's how she became the victim is that they were able to then have access to her. So it was, yeah, it was very interesting how they just had this, yeah.
Wilhelmina (18:17.502)
how it all played out and the fact that, I mean, the video that they made of themselves beforehand and then right after the murder really was what I think made the sentencing even more harsh, because there didn't seem to be much remorse, at least from the planning and then afterwards the things that they were saying on the video. But what we were surprised about was that both of these teenage boys who were, old were they? They were sentenced as adults, but yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (18:31.364)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (18:31.384)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (18:43.204)
Like, they were like 15. They were they were kind of earlier. Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa (18:45.806)
I 15 and 16, I think one of them was 16, one was 15, yeah.
Wilhelmina (18:49.022)
Yes, they both got life in prison. I, without, yes, and we were really blown away by that. The fact that it was such a harsh sentencing for boys who were, it wasn't even like on the cusp. They weren't even like 17, almost 18. It was like fully still in their teenage years, which then got us talking about, you know, can people change and all of that. And then they did interview these
Vanessa (18:52.994)
without the possibility of parole. Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (18:53.092)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (19:18.856)
these now men as adults and where they are now, obviously in prison, but kind of what some of the motivations behind the murder and what they think about their life in prison and not ever being able to get out. And then the worst part was actually the dad of one of the boys, which we continued to think was the most heartbreaking part because the devastation of this man.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (19:20.952)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (19:48.703)
He was just, he was so tearful, he was so sorrowful. He kept being like, I want to switch places with my son. And it reminded me of that show, Adolescents on Netflix, where it's not only just the destruction of the life of the person who was murdered, but it is the destruction of the family of all of the victims, meaning the victims, the victim who was murdered and the people who did the murdering and the rest of their family, which they're left with this like,
I raised this child and this is what my child did. So it just got us all talking and thinking about that concept. And then of course, sadly, so many other examples out there. I mean, you can open a People magazine any week and there's another.
Teri (20:37.816)
Yeah. And I think we as a society, actually, I don't know, you guys agree or disagree. I'm very curious to hear your opinion. We as a society and we as a clinical group of even as clinicians, I don't think we always know what to do with teenagers and young adults whose brains have not reached full maturation, what to do with them legally and clinically intervention wise.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (20:39.044)
Thank
Wilhelmina (20:50.621)
Thank
Wilhelmina (20:54.43)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (20:54.594)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Teri (21:05.39)
when their pathology is so significant that they are trying to or actually murdering other people. I don't think we know what to do.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (21:13.364)
And I think that's why it stuck with us in particular was we understand that brains aren't fully formed at 15. And we're not that that doesn't mean it's an excuse, but we all kind of struggled with like what? Wow. You know, yes, so many lives ruined by this really, yes, it was premeditated, but it was also like so impulsive and so
just there's this aspect of premeditation, which of course they found through video evidence, but also just this impulsivity throughout the whole storyline of these boys and the clinicians and us, it's like, we wanted to assess them, we wanted to test them, we wanted to better understand, you know, because they didn't get into any of that piece of things. And again, not that that's an excuse, but I think it can help to help people understand.
especially when you look at, we didn't know a whole lot. What I wish they would have gone into a little bit more in the documentary were the backgrounds of the kids, including the family backgrounds and what those looked like, because they did show a couple of different parents. And this one father was the only one that we all felt incredible empathy for, which makes you kind of question and wonder, you know, one of the factors in antisocial behavior in adults is childhood trauma.
Wilhelmina (22:14.182)
Yes, me too.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (22:34.872)
So you just kind of wonder if there were other parents, what the experiences of these boys were. Was it pure impulsivity and the lack of a fully formed brain or were there other aspects that impacted their specific development that we weren't informed of through the documentary? And so I think that's one of the reasons, at least for me, that it really stuck with me was like wanting to understand more about
Wilhelmina (23:01.469)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (23:02.608)
what made these kids because yes, as Wilhelmina referred to, they interviewed them in prison as adults. And the one says very clearly, I don't know who that person is. I'm not that person. And you could really feel that this, this man now has grown up and has had more time for brain development. And it just was the whole thing was just so incredibly sad.
Wilhelmina (23:11.292)
Yeah, I'm not that person anymore.
Vanessa (23:12.194)
Yeah.
Vanessa (23:23.916)
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely, they did mention that one of them had, one of them was adopted. And so we don't, I don't think they know a whole lot about what the genetic predisposition is. So we talked about things like trauma, which is like, know, environmental, but there's also this genetic predisposition to things, right? And they did mention that that particular individual had been diagnosed with ADHD because we know that all teens, you know, are
Wilhelmina (23:28.862)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (23:29.154)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (23:46.468)
Right.
Vanessa (23:47.651)
brains are underdeveloped, right? So like prefrontal, right, there's that impulsivity, but not all of them are committing murders, right? So there has to be this kind of added layer to, we already know this brain is, you know, dealing with this impulsiveness and also this, you know, a very active limbic system. So they're also very like emotional, right? So you have these two things happening at same time where you're, there's a lot of emotions and there's not a lot of impulse control. But again, not every teen is.
Wilhelmina (23:47.87)
can be impulsive. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (23:53.092)
correct.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (24:01.028)
Risk taking, decision making, yes. Emotions.
Vanessa (24:14.552)
committing murder. So there has to be this added layer. And yeah, I wish that they had dealt more into what their backgrounds were, because I don't think we had a good sense. So there has to be something else going on there that we just weren't aware of.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (24:15.897)
Right.
Teri (24:17.229)
But yeah.
Wilhelmina (24:26.45)
I think the other one did say he, as an adult, he was realizing that he was gay and he was from a small town and he said, everyone around me was heterosexual and I didn't quite understand it myself and I felt a lot of shame. So not again, not a reason, that was definitely something, yeah, something he was struggling.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (24:35.79)
Yep. Yep.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (24:41.933)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (24:47.622)
Well, variable. Yeah.
Vanessa (24:50.114)
Well, there is, I mean, there is something to that because there's a couple of things that they've identified as like, why do teens commit murders? One of them is we know brain development and this impulse control, but the other is pure influence and wanting to feel part of a group can also. so perhaps that some of that was him not feeling like he belonging because he wasn't comfortable coming out to the community. obviously this is like.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (25:02.66)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (25:05.299)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (25:06.366)
feel a sense of belonging.
Vanessa (25:18.194)
very extreme, right? Like that you're doing this, but perhaps some of that sense of wanting to belong where his peer also was in that kind of same boat of wanting to belong. He talked about feeling like an outsider because he was a kid who had ADHD and some other things. I think he had, did he say anxiety? Some other mental health stuff going on and feeling kind of left out by his peers. And so they have identified this desire to be part of a group, which is why some of
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (25:19.737)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (25:26.27)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (25:45.335)
some kids who, and this was interesting, they kind of left you in the documentary wondering who was the leader, right? And who was, and so I think we left feeling like probably one person, but you got, they interviewed people who knew them both and they kind of had people on both sides of who they felt was the one who was the kind of leader. And so you do wonder, was the other one going along because they wanted to feel.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (25:51.98)
Right.
Wilhelmina (25:52.67)
You
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:03.236)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (26:12.002)
this connection to this other person that they had obviously formed this close relationship to. So that is something that drives teens is this desire to be accepted.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:21.796)
And that's very normal. That piece is very normal. There's so many aspects of their behavior as we're watching it as clinicians, but I also think as parents, there's so many aspects of their behavior that you're like, well, that's very normal that they wanted to belong. It's very normal. They found a friend that felt the same way as them. And so they identified with this individual and started
Wilhelmina (26:24.902)
Absolutely.
Teri (26:25.1)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (26:26.114)
That is normal.
Wilhelmina (26:35.514)
yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (26:47.108)
dressed like each other. I mean, the parents were reflecting on like all of the sudden they were both watching slasher scream type movies together and all of a sudden they were dressing the same way and things like that. There are aspects of that that are very neurotypical for, you know, preteens and adolescents as they're trying to kind of figure out and develop their identity. And it's that's the piece I think as a parent is just like so heartbreaking is you're like what signs were missed?
Wilhelmina (27:14.717)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (27:14.874)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:15.756)
from all the adults involved, parents, teachers, et cetera, right? Because you're not raising kids in isolation. But what signs were missed that led to this event combined with what we know about their prefrontal lobe not being fully developed. And it was just like a tragic situation as a result.
Teri (27:37.676)
And the sense of belonging to a peer group, which is what we call individuation from your family of origin, like Lauren mentioned, is super duper normal. It is supposed to happen. It's developmentally expected. Some kids individuate harder than others, right? Some kids really push off from that family strongly and how they dress and what they listen to and their friends. And some individuate a little softer and sometimes it ebbs and flows.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:49.784)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (27:54.68)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Teri (28:05.85)
Pure influence supersedes family influence for every child, no matter what, no matter how awesome and supportive and loving you are as a family. Pure influence will supersede family influence for several years, starting anywhere from age 11 or 12, sometimes as late as 13, 14 or 15, up until about 16, 17, 18. Then that's what I tell parents, it's called the boomerang effect. Then they sort of circle back. They never fully circle back. They're never totally yours again, right? And they shouldn't be.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (28:09.538)
Yes. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (28:22.542)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (28:30.552)
Yep. Yep. No.
Teri (28:35.95)
They should be dating and in relationships and they should be creating their own life separate from their family of origin. That's good. It's healthy. And while that's happening, what I often tell parents, the analogy that very much speaks to what Vanessa was describing is their brain is under construction. And what we like to say is it's like a Ferrari with no brakes. It's got all this horsepower. Yeah. Tons of horsepower, 90 miles an hour.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (28:58.116)
Yep, that's the same metaphor I use.
Vanessa (28:58.478)
you
Teri (29:05.976)
and there's no break system. And they could have high IQs. No kids have high emotional IQs because you can't make up for brain maturation and life experience. You can't be advanced in that, right? It's just what it is. So then if you have kids with high intellectual IQs, like high cognitive skills, an average EQ or emotional intelligence, or even lower because of ADHD or anxiety, or just where their brain's at, then you've got this
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:07.832)
Happy breaks.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:13.72)
No.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:21.454)
Right. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:33.252)
or just immaturity, yeah.
Vanessa (29:33.518)
Yeah
Teri (29:34.882)
Yeah, just immaturity. You've got this discrepancy between they're in their AP honors classes, but they're not going to behave like that emotionally at home. So you have to keep in mind as your kids are individuating and working on that belonging to their peer group, they're also a Ferrari with no brakes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:40.93)
Yep.
Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (29:50.021)
And to add on to that, and if you then as a parent are overvaluing cognitive and academic skills, and undervaluing aspects of their personality that need to develop in really healthy and appropriate ways like that emotional IQ, that emotional intelligence, you know, empathy, problem solving, flexibility, if you're not focused on those things, and you're saying but
Wilhelmina (29:58.919)
Yes. Yes.
Teri (30:08.685)
empathy.
Teri (30:12.548)
the ceiling.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:16.174)
they're in AP classes, they're excelling, and that's it. You could really easily miss what a child is struggling with too often.
Wilhelmina (30:21.436)
And how often do we hear parents say that? I mean, that's all, that's what they, that's their tagline, right? Like.
Teri (30:24.728)
all the time.
Vanessa (30:25.386)
my gosh. mean, parents equate high vocabulary with high emotional intelligence. And I'm always wanting to bang my head. They're like, but they're so mature when they speak. And I'm like, okay, that's great. I'm glad they have a great vocabulary, but that does not equate to, you know, it's like, like mature, like social development, like, those two things don't necessarily align.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:28.098)
too often.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:33.252)
Those are not the same. Right. Right.
Teri (30:37.844)
Okay. We, there's.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:40.61)
Right. Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:50.146)
the ability to perspective.
Teri (30:50.66)
There's a halo effect for kids who get good grades. We think that kids who either have a high vocabulary, because Vanessa's spot on, I've heard parents say that so many times to me, high vocabulary, good grades, good reader, good whatever, we tend to think they're good people. There is this whole halo effect that they just must be trustworthy, caring, empathic, good kids.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (30:55.082)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:01.283)
huh. Yeah,
Vanessa (31:04.437)
No.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:08.74)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (31:18.838)
And there is no correlation between having, being a good person and making good choices and being, having good grades. There's no correlation. There's no good research.
Wilhelmina (31:21.374)
you
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:21.442)
Right? Zero.
Vanessa (31:22.114)
Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:28.716)
And in fact, sometimes they struggle more. In fact, sometimes those kids struggle more because of what Terry referred to earlier, which is that gap between intellectual functioning, which vocabulary is a part of an emotional functioning. If there is a bigger gap, these kids can struggle more. And if you've got that halo effect in play, you can totally miss it as a parent or an adult in that child's life.
Vanessa (31:53.847)
And I will say that the reverse is true, that people, lot of times people will hear the word ADHD, like one of these kids we know was diagnosed, and it will automatically assume a lot of negative things about the child. This is a behavior problem. You know, I can't tell you how many times I hear parents say, you know, yeah, they struggle with attention, but they're such a good kid. They're so, they're rule follower. And I'm like, okay, but I hear it.
Teri (31:53.966)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (31:59.375)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:05.518)
Sure, sure.
Wilhelmina (32:16.584)
Yeah.
You didn't need to add the butt there. You can just say they have ADHD. They're a good kid.
Vanessa (32:22.444)
I hear all the time because there is this, there are a lot of people who automatically assume ADHD means a behavior problem. And I had a dollar for every time. I mean, I'd be a millionaire at this point. So I think that the, right. And so then you start to get kids who become, you know, kind of on the outside because they may be perceived a certain way because of, you know, X, Y, and Z. So I think both of those things can happen where we assume positive qualities for kids who are maybe bright and
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:25.752)
There's still a stigma. Yeah.
Teri (32:26.404)
Thanks a lot.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (32:30.531)
Right.
Vanessa (32:50.878)
know, cognitively advanced and we assume, you know, these kind of negative characteristics for kids perhaps who have, you know, you know, maybe struggle with certain things like ADHD or, you know, what have you. So I can see it happening on both ends.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (33:06.212)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (33:06.462)
Well, think for me, one of the things that also comes to mind with talking about this, Lauren, you mentioned for the parents, you know, because it's like thinking about watching this from the perspective of a parent. I just finished, I had started like whenever it came out last year, that show Adolescents, and then I somehow hadn't finished it. So I actually wrapped it up this weekend.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (33:16.248)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (33:35.527)
And the last episode, there's only four episodes and each one is just a different day that all go around this one crime. And the last episode is the parents and it is truly devastating. I kept, they're sitting there thinking, what could I have done differently? Did we do something wrong? And it reminded me with what we're talking about.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (33:51.044)
heartbreaking.
Wilhelmina (34:05.034)
is a lot of times parents sort of with teenagers, they just want to let them kind of do their thing. Like, they don't want to hear from me or like, I'll just let them kind of, you know, they're so moody, they're whatever. And so many times, it's just like, talk to your team, talk, talk to them, even if they're not supposedly listening, they're probably listening more than they're appearing that they're listening. And you can just share your observations.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:24.164)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (34:34.382)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (34:34.664)
Hey, I've noticed you're not hanging out with your friends anymore. Hey, I've noticed you are hanging out with this person now. Hey, you seem to be spending a lot of time in your rooms. I hope everything's okay. You can open up dialogue and share your thoughts, share your observations. And they may not say anything in that moment, but they may come to you later, or they may have other places where they're gonna open up to you. And so many times it's just like,
The things that aren't said are way, way heavier than the things that could have just been addressed. And again, not that that would have changed anything, but I don't know. I'm sort of like, hear too many times parents don't have the conversations.
Vanessa (35:16.994)
Yeah, I mean that came up in the documentary. So the dad, we, you have to watch this because you'll know what dad we're talking about. The dad.
Wilhelmina (35:20.41)
Mm-hmm. poor dad. Every time he came on the screen, we were just like, that's dad.
Teri (35:22.403)
you
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:23.012)
heartbreaking.
Teri (35:27.386)
I know.
Vanessa (35:27.458)
Yeah, the one I mean, we all did the one he did say that the one the son who the one who was adopted that he he changed he started doing what the other kid was doing. And there was this sense that he was they were from his perspective that this was a kid who struggled with friendships. And I got the sense that the dad was like concerned but didn't say anything because he was like, well, he has this friend now. And so I don't want to, you know, take that away. But again,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:29.508)
Mm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:33.72)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (35:36.21)
Yes. Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:38.008)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (35:44.467)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:44.505)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:48.889)
Yeah.
Wilhelmina (35:51.282)
That's it. That's it.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (35:52.409)
Yep.
Vanessa (35:57.551)
Could it have changed? I don't know if it would have changed the outcome, but that's one of those situations where in hindsight, it may have been helpful to say, I've noticed you're doing things differently than you did. Where are your other friends that used to hang out? Because remember, they said that he started to drop the friends he had before. And so I think that that's a good example of something that maybe it would have changed something for him. Maybe not, but that's a good, I think, example of what you're talking about, Wilhelmina.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (36:13.976)
Yeah.
Vanessa (36:24.706)
to have those conversations if you're seeing something that's concerning to you. And even if they're not talking back, like being part of the conversation, just hearing what you say could ultimately make a difference.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (36:38.212)
Well, Amina, think you posted Lisa DeMore, this was probably a couple months ago, but she said be a potted plant for your kids during adolescence. And I loved that. It was like so simple, but like that kind of visual metaphor. was like, yeah, that's exactly like, you just have to be there. I know it's not as simple as that, but it was like, it was a really good way of explaining like, yeah, be there, ask the question when it's available to you to ask, and otherwise let the child know that you're there for them no matter what. But I think
Wilhelmina (36:44.36)
Yes, yes, yes.
Teri (36:45.11)
you
Vanessa (36:45.868)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Teri (37:06.862)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (37:08.524)
to kind of piggyback on what Vanessa was saying, it's so hard to know if this was an adolescent limited behavior or if it was going to be across the lifespan. And that piece to me is really interesting research of like, okay, are these, know, you know, antisocial for lack of a better term, like these behaviors that are against the law and completely, you know, unthinkable and unacceptable.
Were they limited to the span of adolescence where the brain was still developing, you met the wrong peer, like those kinds of things, or was this a person that if they were let out of prison, they would commit the same act again? And I don't know. I know that there's, I had done a little bit of research. There's a researcher, I think I wrote it down here, Tracy Moffat. She's a, Terry Moffat. She's a PhD out of Duke.
Teri (37:47.94)
would then.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:03.108)
at Duke University and she's doing that research of yeah, and she called them, I wrote it down, adolescents limited offenders versus life course persistent offenders and what factors.
Wilhelmina (38:06.688)
I love that.
Teri (38:13.274)
and
And like, what are the predictive traits? Yeah.
Vanessa (38:17.806)
So you know what, so I was just gonna say, you know what's interesting? The murder happened in 2006 and I sent you guys the documentary for, there was another story that recently came out because Hulu just did a documentary on them. It's about the two teenage girls who murder Skylar Neese. So this is another situation where they were friends and according to these girls, they decided they no longer wanted to be friends with this girl and they murdered her. And I was looking to see what their sentencing was, cause I was curious if it was different because the,
Wilhelmina (38:28.434)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:28.996)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:35.171)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (38:46.831)
I just looked it up too.
Vanessa (38:47.47)
Yes, so the two boys were sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Well, these two girls ended up getting, well, but with the possibility of parole. So after 15 years.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (38:51.383)
Dup.
Wilhelmina (38:56.57)
of them, same thing.
Wilhelmina (39:00.738)
what I just read was one of them was with the possibility, but one of them was not. That's what I read. I don't know.
Vanessa (39:07.854)
Oh, that's interesting. So it's different. who knows? But I then was looking to see if any of that has changed. And so in 2012, Miller versus Alabama, they changed. the court ruled that mandatory life without parole sentences for juveniles is unconstitutional. But that wasn't until 2012. And then in 2016, so remember, we talked about this about the documentary, like, why are they bringing this up now? So in 2016, Montgomery versus Louisiana, the court ruled that
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (39:08.003)
Okay.
Wilhelmina (39:25.468)
Here it is.
Wilhelmina (39:31.358)
Yes.
Vanessa (39:36.377)
that this previous 2012 decision applied retroactively. So this meant that over 2000 people who are already serving mandatory life sentences were now eligible for updated hearings. And they didn't mention this in the documentary, which I thought was interesting, because I was like, well, what date did that come out? And that is a new documentary. It's from 2026. So I'm curious if that is why they're picking up these juvenile cases.
Wilhelmina (39:41.63)
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (39:42.312)
that's interesting.
Wilhelmina (39:53.372)
No, I'm shocked.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (40:03.428)
Hmm.
Teri (40:03.64)
these cases, but.
Vanessa (40:06.574)
I don't know.
Teri (40:07.374)
but to muddy this a little bit.
Deciding and figuring out from a law perspective what to do with these kids is relatively in the grand scheme of things much newer. When you look at what teenagers were doing in the 60s, 70s, and even 80s, and I'm gonna briefly go over this really quick case you guys are probably familiar with. These people go to mental institutions for a couple of years and be set free the rest of their life. So they were not spending years and years. There's the psychology professor from Milliken University, which is a small school in downstate Illinois. He's in his 60s.
Wilhelmina (40:16.286)
Absolutely.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (40:19.907)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (40:32.058)
Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (40:32.523)
yeah.
Vanessa (40:32.909)
Yes.
Teri (40:41.37)
He has his name. was originally his name was James St. James. No, it James Walcott. Then he changed it to James St. James. Yes, in 1967, when he was 15, he shot his mom, dad and sister, killed them all after sniffing airplane glue. Apparently that was his story. Killed them all, spent six years in a mental institution, was released, changed his name, got a doctoral degree in psychology and has been a professor at Milliken since then.
Wilhelmina (40:48.754)
I have definitely heard of this.
Teri (41:09.85)
A journalist from one of Northwestern's research projects uncovered this and sort of ratted him out to the university. The university allowed him to continue teaching. I believe he still teaches right now, saying that he's clearly not been a repeat offender. You know, he has said, I wanted to move on from that. I believe he refused to be interviewed for it, but I don't know. got to look into that. But he essentially murdered his entire family and is
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:23.566)
We rehabilitated.
Wilhelmina (41:29.98)
Is he married? Kids?
Hmm.
Wilhelmina (41:37.842)
and it's just out there.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:38.948)
Teri (41:39.192)
just out there living his life teaching. So it's like, that's what we did with people in the sixties and seventies. And then the pendulum has swung all the way back. We're going to try you as an adult, or we're going to take it on a case by case basis. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity, but I don't know if that'd be the case today.
Vanessa (41:40.598)
Yeah. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (41:50.812)
Thank
Vanessa (41:52.109)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (41:52.654)
Well, and.
Vanessa (41:55.919)
Well, those girls, I remember the, do you remember the girls who did the Slender Man? They were the 12 year olds. So they actually got sentenced to like psychiatric. So they, they said that those two girls were like, they, they said the case was like psychiatric in nature. So it must, I feel like it's, it's like case by case situation. Cause they were saying that, that this Slender Man was telling them to do this, which is a little bit different. I feel like maybe this is why the difference is like.
Teri (42:01.178)
Yes, yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (42:01.189)
Yes. Yep.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (42:11.236)
So different. Yeah.
Vanessa (42:23.04)
it came across as more kind of like psychiatric, right? It wasn't like, I don't know, I killed her or I watched this movie, you know, or like, we just didn't want to be friends with her anymore. Like the other girls, this was like, this person was telling us to do these things. They were also a little bit younger. So we're talking about 12 year olds, right? And so I wonder if the age also played a role in why they were, you know, not sentenced to, you know, some long prison.
Wilhelmina (42:28.658)
Right.
Teri (42:41.274)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (42:47.972)
Well, and I'm sure, I mean, human behavior, the jury, the lawyers, like everybody involved plays a part in how they interpret this case. Even the people that created the documentary, I mean, they were giving us a story and we have critical eyes as I think a lot of viewers do, but especially just our lens is the psychology piece, the brain development, like we're like, wait, tell me about this, tell me about this, right? So there are like missing elements that I think
could and should factor into what we decide, can these people be rehabilitated or not? And then add in the factor of the more recent school shootings where the parents are being found culpable as well.
Wilhelmina (43:29.148)
Yes. Well, I also would like to add.
Teri (43:31.16)
Yes. What do you guys think of that? Yeah.
Vanessa (43:32.13)
Yes, that's like a whole other.
Wilhelmina (43:35.528)
Well, I was just gonna... I was actually...
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (43:35.716)
I think that case by case, I think the one in Michigan, those parents should be, my opinion, they should be in jail forever. And clearly has stuff going on. Yeah.
Vanessa (43:40.397)
Yeah. Yeah. I think if you're purchasing a weapon for your child, right, that feels different to me than like a parent who has a license for their gun, who has it locked up in some, it feels a little bit different to me. I still, I don't know, there's still, I think there would be more factors that I want to know, but just kind of high level, like that feels different to me.
Wilhelmina (43:45.694)
your child.
Teri (43:46.766)
Who loves guns. He just loves guns.
Thank
Wilhelmina (44:09.042)
holding them accountable does feel like a good move. Yeah.
Vanessa (44:10.71)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think in general, yes.
Teri (44:12.484)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (44:13.73)
Yeah, yeah, I think so, yeah.
Wilhelmina (44:16.658)
So I think that another factor here is our prison system in the United States versus other prison systems. So in our prison system, we don't actually do a good job of taking care of our prisoners. Like we think of prison as punishment, we dehumanize them. Every way we treat them is just like a lot of people, most...
prisoners when they get out, there's just a high rate of recidivism and they go back to prison because oftentimes they're going back to the same environment that they came from. then they don't really have any, like, especially if they spent years in prison, they kind of get used to that life versus other countries, which do it very differently. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, they actually work on rehabilitating prisoners.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (44:58.36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (45:10.994)
which means that they actually set up their prison to almost be like outside life. So they have them have jobs and things like that so that when they get out, it's not this shocked the system. And they work on really like, if there's mental health, they get them therapy, get like, they really work on, this is their time to serve a sentence. But then the goal is to get them, if they can, back out into the world. And they actually have
Teri (45:16.122)
don't know.
Teri (45:19.93)
Thank
Wilhelmina (45:40.187)
huge success with it. Their rate of recidivism is way lower than in the United States. And so I'm sort of like, here is just another example of like this data that's out there, whether it's gun control, whether it's this, where like, there's other countries that do it differently, and there's so much data to back up that it's very successful.
Teri (46:00.73)
But I think we are so reactive instead of proactive across the board. Healthcare, education, just even identifying dyslexia, right? We are education, healthcare, the legal justice system, after it's a massive problem.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:04.888)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (46:04.894)
Absolutely.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:09.622)
Yeah, we do a very poor job.
Wilhelmina (46:13.79)
Let's fix the problem after it's a problem. We don't need to fix it before it's a problem.
Vanessa (46:15.586)
Yeah. Well, it's funny when you were naming those countries, I'm like, don't they all have universal healthcare? So anyway.
Wilhelmina (46:19.804)
Yes!
Teri (46:20.506)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, I just think that, yeah. No, go ahead. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (46:24.518)
And one of those, like, sorry. I was gonna say, I think one of those is also the country that like, there's like literally like zero gun violence because they don't allow guns.
Teri (46:35.162)
they don't let it, right, right. So when you decrease, well, here's the other thing to think about circling this conversation back to adolescence is when you decrease or constrain access or means of access, you actually then limit the possibilities for problematic behavior. So when there were all those suicides off the San Francisco, the Golden Gate Bridge, they put in that really elaborate net.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (46:56.644)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (47:00.648)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (47:03.448)
That is what stopped a lot of people. And you would think, well, the suicide rate will be the same. They'll just use other means. They didn't because the opportunity wasn't there. And yes. And for teens, impulsivity peaks at age 15. There's a lot of literature to support that. So what we have happening simultaneously is this Ferrari without brakes, impulsivity peaking, individuation from family, trying to find a sense of belonging with your peer group. What you need to think. Yes. Right.
Wilhelmina (47:03.677)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:09.602)
Right, right. The impulsivity piece. Yep.
Wilhelmina (47:10.28)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa (47:12.216)
there.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:19.352)
Yep.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:26.286)
Yep. Yep.
Vanessa (47:28.076)
And no thinking of the future, like no thinking of future thinking, right? We don't think like, well, if I do this now, that's going to happen later. That is not the standard.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:31.396)
Teri (47:34.298)
Right. And you're invincible and you're totally invincible. So as a parent, of the, some of the things that we can think about to protect our kids is decreasing access and means. So not letting your kid go to the friend's house where there's no parents around or it's unsupervised, not letting them sleep with their iPhone in their bedroom, you know, not letting them do X, Y, and Z. If you decrease and stop the access to the means, that's half the battle.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:34.719)
Abstract, yeah. Right.
Wilhelmina (47:45.426)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:45.592)
Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:50.34)
crack.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (47:53.706)
my gosh.
Wilhelmina (47:54.28)
my gosh. Yes, please.
Vanessa (48:00.719)
Right. And that's not even just, I was just gonna say, and that's not even just, I think that, you we're talking about like murder, which is like, obviously like the extreme, but what you're talking about, Terry, it's like, you can even scale that back to all those things can help with like smaller, you know, issues that come up with teens. Like, you know, so we're not, it's not like, if you do those things, your kid's not gonna murder someone. It's like, no, you can help your child, you know, like avoid having like high anxiety, right? Or depression or like all these other things, right? Like obviously,
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:00.793)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a miss. Go ahead, Vanessa.
Teri (48:08.878)
I weigh it.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:09.976)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:13.55)
Of course. Yeah.
Wilhelmina (48:15.154)
Right.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:21.337)
Yeah.
Teri (48:21.646)
Right?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:23.716)
Right. Right.
Teri (48:25.05)
Right. Smaller scale.
Vanessa (48:29.494)
Exactly.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (48:31.0)
develop problem solving skills, like all of those things is, yeah. And I think there's a, what I was just going to say is I think there's a misunderstanding of limiting access to those things as being, well, they're going to just, they're going to get into it anyway. They're going to find it anyway. I don't know what the term is I'm looking for. Like, right? Like it's more of that just, they're going to do it anyway. Right. And it's like, no, that's not actually, right. Right. That's not actually what kids are looking for. They are looking for.
Vanessa (48:33.923)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (48:49.306)
Uh oh, they're gonna drink anyways. They're gonna whatever.
Vanessa (48:53.634)
Or they're gonna want it more. They're gonna wanna do it more if you take it away.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:00.228)
that structure and that sense of comfort and control in healthy ways that parents can give them. They need that ability to make mistakes in a safe space as opposed to, yeah, you're free to do whatever and we have no rules or boundaries.
Teri (49:06.958)
Mm-hmm.
Wilhelmina (49:20.86)
Yeah, they may act like they don't like it and yet, but they need it. Yes, yeah. Because as adults often later are like, I wish my parents had done more to, know, so like.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:22.838)
Right, but they actually crave it. Yeah, yeah.
Vanessa (49:24.3)
They may say they don't like it. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know,
Teri (49:30.606)
Yes. And ask any high school teacher, any teacher who's high school teacher who's worked with teens for a living will vouch for that. They'll say they hate the rules, they need them, they thrive in them, they actually like them, they need it.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:31.736)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:39.428)
The scaffolding piece is huge. Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (49:45.41)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Vanessa (49:47.203)
Yeah, and I think this came up already in this conversation, but I think now circling back to it, the friendship thing, I hear a lot of excuses about, know, like for example, well, you know, if I don't, if I take away the phone, then they're not gonna have any friends. not gonna be able to, that's how kids socialize these days, you know? And I just wanna scream every time I hear it, not thinking, but it doesn't have to be that way. So that's not a good enough reason to, you know, allow your child to have, you know, you
Wilhelmina (49:53.189)
Ugh.
Teri (50:04.282)
Mm-hmm.
Teri (50:15.074)
If that's their primary method of socialization, we've got a different situation. It should be an adjunct. It should be to make plans. It should not be the main source of socialization.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (50:20.324)
Correct. Yep. Yep.
Vanessa (50:22.029)
Right.
Vanessa (50:26.636)
Yes, yes. Any other thoughts on today's topic?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (50:33.804)
I just, would say if you're looking for something to do, maybe when it's like bright and sunny out in the middle of the day and not at night, it's a really well done documentary.
Vanessa (50:38.702)
Yes. And I will say, because I, I recommended this documentary to my hairdresser and we haven't mentioned this because this is the funny part about this whole documentary is the glow up girls. The glow up. So just, this is just a humorous bit of this.
Wilhelmina (50:42.098)
Yeah, it really is.
Wilhelmina (50:52.958)
The cop, the cop!
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (50:53.348)
Teri (50:55.889)
yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (50:56.504)
That's hysterical.
Wilhelmina (50:57.982)
Like, that's the same man?
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (51:02.894)
That's very funny.
Vanessa (51:05.004)
that they're in the documentary, they show like original footage of these teens being interviewed, of like the parents at the time, the teens at the time, and the cops who were investigating this crime. And they brought then some, you know, the parents back, they eventually they interviewed the, well, they're now men, classmates. And then they also interviewed the police officers who were involved. And there was one police officer in particular that we were flabbergasted because this is like what, 20 years later? Yeah, exactly 20 years later.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (51:09.133)
Yes.
Wilhelmina (51:11.538)
cops.
Wilhelmina (51:20.83)
Classmates.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (51:22.318)
Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (51:32.748)
Yeah, yeah.
Vanessa (51:34.419)
and he had a glow up so he he aged really well.
Wilhelmina (51:38.354)
He definitely did. I feel like a lot of those people, was a little like, the years had been tough. Life had been tough. That poor dad, mean, that life had been real tough. But that cop, a good 20 years for him. Yeah. The hair came off and the glow up happened. was all.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (51:40.184)
That's very funny. Life's been tough to them. Yeah.
Teri (51:45.77)
It's been a rough 20 years.
Vanessa (51:45.838)
Yeah.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (51:50.404)
That's funny.
Vanessa (51:51.118)
Yeah, we all agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Our two biggest takeaways were like that poor dad and that glow up officer. it was, it was, was, yeah. So anyway, that was our funny little tidbit from there. Yeah, it was definitely, yeah, it was definitely hands down worth the watch. all right, ladies, thank you everyone for joining us today. Please join us next time on the shrink down.
Teri (51:52.716)
Agreed. Agreed.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (51:58.244)
Ha!
Teri (52:03.162)
Yeah. Yes.
Lauren Radtke-Rounds Ph.D. (52:05.88)
That's funny.
Wilhelmina (52:07.41)
Yeah, it's definitely worth the watch.