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The Future of Gaming DAO or FOGDAO is a decentralized, tokenized community exploring the future of the gaming industry.
00:00:16:18 - 00:00:46:07
Unknown
GM friends and welcome to the future of Gaming. You're listening to our weekly podcast. We have the usual crew together and only us. We have Philip Collins, Devin Becker and myself, Nico Vega. Today, the past week was a bit slow in the blockchain. What, three games worlds in terms of the future of games, but we have seen some drama in the NFT marketplace world.
00:00:46:12 - 00:01:12:05
Unknown
So that's what we're going to talk about today. Opensea is making some pretty drastic changes and so we want to take the opportunity to talk about what they're changing royalties on chain enforcements, the future of nfts and marketplaces, whether those business models make sense, creators like there's a lot hanging on this in the whole with three worlds. So let's chat about that.
00:01:13:14 - 00:01:36:12
Unknown
All right, Devin, Phil, how are you guys doing? Good. Dying. Dying. The toxic chemical. Yeah. Does that mean, Devin, that you're going to talk less? No, it just means I have to put up a will for my nfts. Okay. You don't yet have an on chain, and if you will, that will distribute. That's something I need to work on.
00:01:36:15 - 00:01:57:22
Unknown
But I also need to make sure that, like, I decide how the royalties are distributed for that. Yeah. So what? Estate tax and you're your folk that friends. Yeah. Because I totally have like bought apes and stuff right. Yeah I'm down for your What are you going to shit on. Like some probably some like what three CG guard think you will be crypto raiders.
00:01:57:22 - 00:02:21:17
Unknown
I'm sorry, I called the Raiders this year like I'm going to own like 50% of splinter lands assets. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Those. Yeah, that's definitely it. That's what you're going to get. Sorry. Good. All right, Skye, We were too. So a bit of context around the two days or like today's topic and this week's tweet by opensea. I think it makes sense to go back a little bit.
00:02:21:18 - 00:02:48:17
Unknown
We already discussed this a few months ago when we saw, I think it was Magic Eden or another salon based NFT marketplace who reduced like who stopped enforcing creator fees. And so the way this worked was if you are a creator and you create an NFT collection, you could indicate creator fees that should be applied whenever one of your pieces or one of the NFT is from that contract from the collection was sold.
00:02:49:01 - 00:03:15:18
Unknown
And so this was generally between five and 10%. And so if I would sell something for one ETH and the creator fee was 10%, then 0.1 each would go towards the creator. But the problem was that this was sort of voluntary creator fee. And so this was not enforced on chain, which meant that if you sold this on Opensea, so if you sold your Nifty and Opensea, then that creator fee would be withheld by Opensea together with Opensea stacks.
00:03:15:18 - 00:03:35:05
Unknown
So you would in the end, I think if the greater fee was 10%, I think it was 14 and a half. I think their fees were four and a half percent. Maybe it varied a bit. It's somewhere along those lines. And so you would end up paying 14 and a half percent fees and those would be go 10% of that would go towards the royalty and four and a half percent would go towards Opensea.
00:03:36:00 - 00:04:04:22
Unknown
And then we saw Magic Eden say like, okay, we need to look. We're struggling. Finding liquidity and volume and we're going to reduce creator fees to zero or we're going to make them optional. So that's better. So now as a seller, you had the option, Do I want to have the 10% creator fees on my sale or not, which if you're selling and if you have the option like let's be honest, right?
00:04:05:05 - 00:04:23:21
Unknown
I think most of the people in the what, three worlds, the bunch of degenerates are not going to be willing to, you know, take a box that makes them feel good and is going to like give X percent of the sale of their assets to to the original creator. And when we talked about this, we predicted that this was going to be a race to the bottom.
00:04:23:21 - 00:04:51:12
Unknown
And yeah, we can do better selves on the back because it actually ended up being like that. And so what's the current status in November? A new marketplace, new NFT Marketplace saw the lights, which is called Blur. If you go to blurred audio, you can start and you can look, you metamask well, you can start trading all of your infos and if you go through that website, you'll see that blur is a marketplace made for traders and traders.
00:04:51:12 - 00:05:14:07
Unknown
And so if you go there, you can get like charts and you can get a lot of data. So it's definitely made for people that are flipping NFT, which is something that I like to go into after we discuss, you know, royalties, etc.. And so what happened today? So this was all like Preamble and Blur actually saw, I think last week, Wednesday, larger volume, larger daily volumes than Opensea for the first time.
00:05:14:07 - 00:05:33:20
Unknown
So they've been actually doing really well. So they launched in November and in last week they had higher volumes of 24 hour periods than Opensea, which is, which is a major. Now. One of the reasons for that is that they dropped their blur token, which is similar to looks luxury, if you're familiar with that. So they drop their token, they're airdropped their token, you can clean them.
00:05:33:20 - 00:05:50:05
Unknown
And so then there was a lot of volume like that caused a lot of volume, which is why they beat out Opensea. But still, the fact that they've been opensea for 24 hours is pretty major. So Opensea is feeling the competition. All right. There's some more complex to give you. So sorry, guys. There's there's a lot of complex here.
00:05:50:05 - 00:06:19:06
Unknown
Before we can really dive into I did some research and so this is something that I actually missed. I shouldn't have missed this, but OPENSEA started or launched a operator filter on like an optional open operator filter that you could use to add to the NFT collection that you create. And so that was their attempts ads on chain enforcements of NFT royalties.
00:06:19:06 - 00:06:48:22
Unknown
And basically what it did was you create you're an if you're NFT collection and you would hardcoded a bunch of smart contracts inside of your your collection, that would be there would be operator filters that would say that, oh, I might. And if the collection can be traded on this marketplace, this marketplace, this marketplace and this marketplace and these marketplaces were the ones that famously were known for enforcing the the NFT royalties.
00:06:48:22 - 00:07:09:09
Unknown
So if you only allowed Opensea to trade, you're in. If these you would know that because Opensea was to be trusted, they would enforce the rules and so you would still get your royalties and people could not trade its own magic signals as an example, because they didn't enforce your royalties. And so they had this operator filter that you could opt into.
00:07:09:10 - 00:07:33:21
Unknown
But the problem was that, well, most of Opensea competition was actually not included in the operator filter, which means that if you used that, you couldn't like your NFT couldn't be traded on earlier, it couldn't be traded on or magic, given that some of the other big NFT marketplaces that ultimately didn't fully enforce the creator royalties. And so this this was their attempt at making sure that royalties would be enforced.
00:07:35:02 - 00:07:55:08
Unknown
Okay. So I think that's enough context for their tweets. I'm going to quickly go through I'm almost done ranting or talking and then we can discuss about this. So open season, Opensea is making some big changes today. This is a tweet on the 17th of February Opensea fee 0% for a limited time. So this is the four and a half percent that I mentioned.
00:07:55:08 - 00:08:16:17
Unknown
Maybe this is lower today and the 1% sure. But they're putting it at 0% because I think they want to drive back some volume to their to to to opensea itself. You guys can give your thoughts. They are moving to optional creator earnings with a 0.5% minimum for all collections without on chain enforcements. So this is the big one.
00:08:16:22 - 00:08:41:09
Unknown
So what this means is that all collections that are not using the operator filter that we just discussed are moving towards optional creator earnings again. So this means that the seller so if you're selling an NFT, you have optional creator earnings. So if the if the like the creator royalties or 10% and you don't want to pay 10%, you're only going to be 0.5%.
00:08:42:08 - 00:09:08:03
Unknown
So this is this is the really, really, really big one. All the new, which means that even if today you create an NFT collection without the upgraded filter, sellers on OPENSEA will still have the option to opt out of creator royalties and then marketplace with the same policies. That's sort of in this point, three of the big open Zinoman announcement marketplaces with the same policies will not be blocked by the operator filter.
00:09:08:04 - 00:09:35:21
Unknown
So if if Marketplace and NFT Marketplace is doing the same thing as Opensea does that we just mentioned, which is optional creator fee earnings with a 0.5% minimum, then they will all be allowed or not blocked by the operator filter that we talked about in the NFT contracts before. So that's a pretty big move. I'm going to stop talking now and get your guys's thoughts.
00:09:36:08 - 00:10:00:02
Unknown
Who wants to go first? I have so many thoughts. So you conservatives are still so filled with firsts? Yeah, I mean, I think this is the definition of the race to the bottom that we talked about before. And it's really some of the first instances of competition that we've seen in the space where Opensea was able to break out and develop such a competitive advantage from the beginning, because what they had was trust.
00:10:00:02 - 00:10:20:06
Unknown
And early on, trust was good enough, right? I mean, the options out there, you could buy and sell an NFT without really being concerned about getting scammed. That meant a lot to buyers and sellers on both sides. And so they were able to establish credibility, which is something that was extremely, extremely valuable in the web3 space over the past couple of years.
00:10:20:06 - 00:10:49:19
Unknown
Credibility is, you know, kind of worth its weight in gold in this in this arena. And yeah, we I think we've seen we've seen this a couple levers we've always talked about on the on the marketplace side that are really relevant. The first is exclusivity of content. If you're able to make sure that things are exclusively sold on your marketplace, then that will attract users and be is that the fees and the pricing of actually exchanging items on each marketplace?
00:10:49:19 - 00:11:10:14
Unknown
And I think that's the lever that we're really seeing pulled right now where Opensea is willing to cut its platform fee to 0%, try to attract all of the users back to its platform, and inevitably will be it will be forced to punch it back up once the users come back. So it's kind of like a little bit of a bait and switch where it's like, look how friendly we are to buyers and sellers.
00:11:10:14 - 00:11:29:00
Unknown
Look how easy we are to use as a platform, and as soon as they come back, it's not really sustainable for them to keep it at 0%. They're going to they're going to kick it back up and and and try to monetize off of that user attention once it's once it's back on the platform so it doesn't seem sustainable for Opensea.
00:11:29:12 - 00:11:50:23
Unknown
It's definitely like effectively a marketing tactic for them to try to get the attention back in their favor as these these more viable competitors pop up. But it can't be like this forever. I get some of my thoughts in one sentence here. Fuck these marketplaces. They're all going to do what's best for them. They're all going to race to the bottom.
00:11:50:23 - 00:12:06:09
Unknown
They're all going to do none of the stuff is benefiting anyone but them. At the end of the day, the 10% of a like a royalty, no one really cared about paying the first place. Right. Like if you're buying an X, but it's like tax. Like when you pay tax on sales tax in America, like it's like close to 10% anyways.
00:12:06:16 - 00:12:27:07
Unknown
You just don't care. Like if you get 10% off on something, you're like, I don't even care. Like, that's it's a meaningless amount. Basically, when it comes to people that are trading this kind of stuff. So the idea that the we're fighting over which kind of stuff, how meaningless amounts for people that are trading this kind of stuff, if I'm trading stuff and I want to make a profit, if I pay 10% on every transaction, every time I sell, that's not meaningless.
00:12:28:01 - 00:12:44:14
Unknown
If you're trying to make a profit, then don't have a middleman. Like if you're involving a middleman, you're you're going to be giving a cut over like that at the end of the day, like you're going to be giving part of your cut over to someone as a middleman of that you're paying for liquidity, right? That's right. You're playing for a marketplace.
00:12:44:14 - 00:13:03:09
Unknown
You're paying for like buyers to be available to you. Like that's what you're paying for is access to buyers. Right. And and I kind of hope we get past this whole, like art market of things at some point and move into stuff that actually makes sense right up to us instead of just people just slinging stuff back and forth hoping to find the better sucker that they can make money off of.
00:13:03:09 - 00:13:22:12
Unknown
Because like, that's what this is. At the end of the day, it's like just trying to find yet another sucker like that whole make profit thing. How are you making profit off of this? Like, like maybe you get in early on something, okay. Right. It might turn out to be cool. That's maybe like slightly valid idea of profit, but other than that, you're basically just trying to find some other sucker to buy your thing.
00:13:22:19 - 00:13:41:13
Unknown
For the most part, like most of these entities, obviously there's exceptions, but at the end of the day, like all these systems that are around like blacklisting or whitelisting marketplaces prohibits, you're going to have to stay on top of that. You can't trust any of these marketplaces to stick by their word. Look how much Opensea has waffled back and forth, like how much magic eaten is waffled back and forth.
00:13:41:20 - 00:13:58:11
Unknown
All of these are going to end at the end of the day, Any nice move they make is a PR move. It's trying to keep people using their platform, not necessarily doing was better for anyone else. And I'm not saying they're malicious, but I'm saying their business is a centralized thing. So at the end of the day, let's stop with the centralized stuff.
00:13:58:11 - 00:14:18:05
Unknown
Right. Like the whole point of this decentralized stuff is to make it decentralized. That's why we have dexs and the advantages of dexs. We need to be doing the same kind of stuff where we're like enforcing onscreen royalties. We can have new standards. We don't have to stick to. 721 We have lots of other options out there. The stuff that limit break put out is a great start to that, right?
00:14:18:10 - 00:14:36:07
Unknown
Where it's like trying to say like there's different ways to apply these realities or different ways to incentivize people to be part of that. There's there's lots of other alternatives other than saying, let's just blacklist or whitelist marketplaces. So that's it's just like the really shallow, dumb way to do this. And you see every single one of these marketplaces just weaponizing that.
00:14:36:12 - 00:14:51:05
Unknown
They're using it as a way to cut out competitors, not as a way to enforce royalties. That's just a lie. Like, oh, we want to just help make sure that all the royalty enforcements there, it's like, no, we want to make sure our our competitors are blacklisted. That's what it comes down to because we know they can undercut us there.
00:14:51:18 - 00:15:10:23
Unknown
And that's where that's where they're worried about like this. It's like, as Phil said, the whole like 0% marketplace fees are that's B.S. like when you go to this page, they try to act like it's going to be a permanent thing, too. Like when you go there, they greet you with hello to say hello to 0% fees, like when you like that, that makes it sound like it's a permanent thing, like the way they phrase it when you go there.
00:15:11:08 - 00:15:30:23
Unknown
But it's not. It's just like, hey, let's try and quickly steal back the people from Blur. And so at the end of the day, like, I feel like marketplaces being centralized are indirectly hostile to the environment. And I think obviously, yeah, we want liquidity. We want people to be able to like, find each other. We want safety in that stuff.
00:15:31:05 - 00:15:48:19
Unknown
But that's why we're trying to build these things on chain. This whole point of the chain is safety and transparency. If we're not, if we don't have that yet, we need to build it. Instead of going like, Oh, this, I'll just make opensea do what we want. Like they're not going to like, they're going to do what keeps them the relevant marketplace, what keeps the volume up, because that's what keeps investment up.
00:15:49:04 - 00:16:06:18
Unknown
That's what keeps them fighting to be a platform. We've seen what happens to platforms in the rest of life and technology. They take over and they start being malicious once they have market share. That's just what platforms do. That's the whole point is Web3 stuff is we're supposed to be getting away from that. So just going back to that, like that's just giving back the power.
00:16:06:18 - 00:16:24:20
Unknown
And I think creators, if they're not willing to say, Hey, let's move to a new standard that enforces our royalties, then maybe they need to figure out a different business model and not go with royalties. But at the end of the day, like let's not just rely on someone trusting what we're going to do. This isn't a humble bundle where we're hoping that they're going to like, check the box for for charity.
00:16:25:13 - 00:16:49:19
Unknown
It's not going to work. There's my rent. Rent over. Good. No, I will agree with your points, although I wouldn't necessarily say like, fuck these marketplaces. I think, you know, as you said, they're businesses and they have shareholders. And, you know, they in the end, everything I feel that's being done by these places is to drive liquidity and volume.
00:16:50:03 - 00:17:31:15
Unknown
Right? That's what these marketplaces are competing over. They all want more sellers and more by buyers transacting on their platform. Opensea had an initial like first mover advantage and it's clear that's like honestly, like it eroded. It got eroded away faster than I expected. And I think a big reason for that is bear markets like bear markets and bull market dynamics for nifty trading are huge because if you're in a bull market and you just made a3x on your nifty collection or like on your nifty that you're flipping, you're not going to care about the ten, 5 to 10% royalty because you already three, except in a bear markets where where you're like, you're down
00:17:31:15 - 00:17:54:02
Unknown
bad and you're like, Oh fuck, I want to sell this. Like you're going to look for the place that gives you most bang for your buck. So, you know, I think that's I guess an aside, that's this whole discussion. We probably wouldn't be having it if it were. If so, good times, obviously good times. And last especially in what three land bears bear markets happen.
00:17:54:02 - 00:18:24:15
Unknown
When you say because you were you were your points if I if I summarize it is that decentralized NFT marketplaces are businesses and you know all everything that they do is in function of their own profitability. We should go more decentralized. So for me, I would say that's yes, these NFT marketplaces are centralized, but for me that they're like they're already hybrids because a lot of what they're doing actually happens, like on chain.
00:18:25:16 - 00:18:54:15
Unknown
And so I'd like to for you to maybe describe how what a decentralized NFT marketplace looks for you, because if you look at, you know, opensea versus a uniswap, like they both have a similar frontend, they both do some things off chain and some things on chain. So like could you describe for me what or is there an example of a fully decentralized marketplace that, you know, if I mean, I'm not sure about fully, fully decentralized, right?
00:18:54:15 - 00:19:10:14
Unknown
But the idea is like part of the thing we talk about all the time with web threes aligning incentives and stuff like that. And it's like it's not even really at the end of the day, like volume and liquidity is what they're looking for. They're looking for their marketplace fee at the end of the day, like maybe short term, they're willing to sacrifice stuff for market share.
00:19:10:22 - 00:19:27:13
Unknown
But at the end of the day, like where they make their money, where their business is driven towards where the investment is for is to get that market share so they can get that marketplace fee. Now, if there's different models around where marketplace fees can be something that is like a community oriented being, like a DAO kind of thing and stuff like that around decentralized stuff.
00:19:27:20 - 00:19:49:09
Unknown
I'm not saying those are all the smartest idea either, but I think there are marketplaces that can act more like decentralized ones, like Nifty Swap that are that are built around this idea of having different kinds of ways of doing NFT swapping and nifty trading. And it also depends on the target audience. So like you were saying, like, you know, I think one of the reasons that they lose market share so fast is the bull bear market.
00:19:49:14 - 00:20:12:10
Unknown
I think it's not so much just the bull bear market as the target audience. The audience right now is mostly flipping. They're mostly looking for profit. So they are going to be disloyal. They are going to not care about creator fees. The people that do care about creators, they've already bought the entities and they're holding them. Therefore, the fees don't matter to them because they're not they're not trading, they're not flipping, they're holding or using or whatever.
00:20:12:10 - 00:20:39:01
Unknown
Right. And so it doesn't apply to them in the same way. So the target audience really matters. If we're in a period where everyone's just speculative, speculatively trading, then exchanges and other things are going to be built around that. And that becomes this race to the bottom mentality because it's all financially driven at that point. Whereas if we're looking at game Nfts, for example, in the marketplace isn't necessarily around just financial decisions around trading or finding things that you like different, different incentives.
00:20:39:05 - 00:21:16:12
Unknown
We can align those incentives better with either decentralized or centralized marketplaces. Right now, if everyone's just looking for that extra little cut of juice of of profit and treating it like a stock exchange, then yeah, it's going to be a race to the bottom. It's going to be I mean, until like some regulation steps in, it's just going to be just cutthroat and it might as well be like a Wild West like that, because that's what happens when you have that kind of marketplace where everyone is looking for their edge and any kind of like, you know, PR stuff is PR stuff where they're just trying to like say what people want to hear to
00:21:16:12 - 00:21:33:02
Unknown
try and keep people in the platform. I'm not saying opensea are bunch assholes, but I'm saying their incentives are aligned a certain way and they're not going to change because as you said, they have shareholders, they have investors, they have people that are looking for that long term market share. There's no reason for them to be a charity and I don't expect them to be.
00:21:33:17 - 00:21:51:08
Unknown
But this this kind of thing is not going to stop here. This is not the first time. This is not the last time. This is going to keep going on until we either enforce it on chain, which is the point of all of this stuff, or we just move on to some other standard or something and move away from these for different types of NFT.
00:21:51:14 - 00:22:09:02
Unknown
We also need to stop lumping all of these into one group. Our nfts are different than props per se. They are different than game Nfts are different than like ticket Nfts for an event like we need to start actually separating these things a little better because the technology could potentially work differently. It doesn't have to be the same.
00:22:09:06 - 00:22:42:07
Unknown
We don't need to use 721 for every single type of thing, the same reason we have 1155 for example, and I know there's tons of standards proposed, but until we get like serious traction, one area with one standard, like it's probably not going to change. But I think when you start thinking outside of this flipping mentality towards other things and maybe the bear market is a perfect time to do so, where we're stopping, thinking so profit centric and we're in build mode, How does this play out, Phil, do you think?
00:22:42:07 - 00:23:06:18
Unknown
I think we're going to see a lot more experimentation, but that's really what the centralized nature of of these exchanges is allowing them to do is, you know, try different business models and see what works. And I mean, I think we've seen Opensea do this a few times now where they're able to optimize and in certain times for monetization of each transaction and in times like now they're they're able to optimize for just transaction volume and attention on their own platform.
00:23:06:18 - 00:23:37:12
Unknown
And so I think we'll continue to see a little bit more of a spiral and race to the bottom where everyone's just trying to to really find the right triage value between value for creators, value for traders, and then value for themselves as platforms. And everyone's kind of looking for like the perfect balance of those few things. And of course, as a platform, the only reason you care about value of creators and value of traders is how it derivative benefits you and your top and bottom line.
00:23:38:01 - 00:23:58:10
Unknown
And it seems like everyone's just really looking for that point. I think something we've talked a lot about in the past as it relates to wallets is, you know, the stickiness of wallets is probably going to be rooted in rewards almost maybe like a credit card like system where you're actually incentivizing people to stay more with the carrot than the stick.
00:23:58:10 - 00:24:30:23
Unknown
And it seems like right now a lot of the NFT marketplaces are really trying to like use the stick of going from being punitive or quote unquote punitive to these platforms to now pretending like they're giving you a carrot by just wiping swiping these fees. But I think we'll just have to have to see them find more compelling ways to benefit the constituents of their platforms rather than purely just focus on the cost basis of making a trade and making sure that it is sticky and there is a reason that you want to keep your asset there.
00:24:30:23 - 00:24:58:01
Unknown
And for all we know, that could just be the eyeballs and maybe this will be the best thing Opensea ever does. Buy by making it a no brainer to try to come trade on their platform and at once you come, you just kind of don't go back. But I think we'll need to see more carrots as well. And I think we'll inevitably see more creative ways of of compelling users to become open, see, you know, customers.
00:24:58:01 - 00:25:31:09
Unknown
Interesting. So the way I think about this is that well, I agree. I think like, I don't think a non enforceable on chain fee is ever going to like keep living because I think for the foreseeable future there's going to be too much flipping and the focus is still going to be on making profits because it feels like that's what 95% of people are doing these days, and especially the people that are actually selling or trying to sell to make profit.
00:25:31:17 - 00:25:57:19
Unknown
And so, you know, this, as we predicted, continues to be a race to the bottom. So I'm interested in open source attempts to have on chain enforcement of royalties. And the way they do that is by essentially centralizing. Right. They say only you can only trade these collections on these specific marketplaces, which is obviously super risky. Right, Because.
00:25:58:05 - 00:26:31:15
Unknown
Well, yeah, they this is something that I don't see. I don't think this is a viable solution in the long run. And so we've discussed this before. Right? We were thinking about how we would exactly do this, but we need decentralized, enforceable on chain royalties. So royalties where you I critical action, I say 5% royalties and no one anywhere can sell these royalties, sell their assets, or they're in office without paying me 5%.
00:26:31:15 - 00:26:51:20
Unknown
And I don't know, like there are some like immediately you you, you understand that there's a lot of complications there, right? Because, you know, you can you can barter. Like what if you sell one NFT for another, a nifty like where does the 5% come from or what if I just want to transfer an NFT from one of my wallets to another one of my little It's so there's a lot of complications.
00:26:51:20 - 00:27:22:09
Unknown
I think there's ways to ways to overcome these, but we need to I think that's that's the endgame here. And interestingly, now seeing what Opensea did with their operator filter, which is how they currently enforce and if the royalties, which is essentially like in a business sense, a smart move, right? Because they make it so like, oh, if you're a creator and you really want to have operator royalties, then use our smart contract and they're we're whitelisted.
00:27:22:10 - 00:27:46:04
Unknown
And so they're essentially like limiting the competition by cutting out some of their the competitors out of that the filtered list. So I guess my conclusion is that this is not super surprising. I think this just starts a race to the bottom. I think we'll probably see NFT. So there's royalty fees, enforced royalty fees and there's marketplace fees.
00:27:46:13 - 00:28:05:19
Unknown
So the market flea based marketplace fees for Opensea have been set to zero. I think we'll also see those converge to zero, especially in bear market territory. There's not going to be zero red really going to be low because operating a marketplace is not very expensive. And so like, yeah, I think again, I think we'll see those go down.
00:28:07:04 - 00:28:36:19
Unknown
I'm pretty sure that we'll see quite a few more like aggregators pop up. So there's there's already a few websites where you can go and you can see all collections from Opensea, Blue or Magic even, and all the other marketplaces that are being put up for sale. And then finally, I think we still need, as you mentioned, Devin, we need new on chain standards where creators can enforce royalties because I think royalties are a valuable and necessary way for creators to monetize.
00:28:37:02 - 00:29:13:13
Unknown
And the problem is that we're like, whenever you talk about this, it's like, no, because people make more money from primary sales. And so the moment you say that royalties are a good way to monetize, people think that royalties are the only way to monetize. And I guess, you know, and I've said this like dozens of times on this podcast by now, we because we now have a way to ensure scarcity of the internets, we now have a way to trust loosely and this in a decentralized way, transact value very granularly through things like and if these and fungible tokens, we have new ways to monetize ways that couldn't exist before.
00:29:13:22 - 00:29:34:18
Unknown
And all of these ways are valuable. Just like in the games industry, there are companies making money through subscriptions, store companies making money through in-app purchases. There are companies making money through advertisements, and there are companies making money through bucks deals, right? There's different ways of monetization. All of them are viable for different products. And for an FTC, we'll see the same thing, right.
00:29:34:18 - 00:30:02:08
Unknown
Devin, you made categorize Asian of different types of nfts gaming, NFT art and if this profile picture and if these we will likely see some of them have monetization through royalties and others will have different ways of monetization. And so I'm like, but I think royalties are a viable way to monetize and we need to be able to like a creator needs to be able to trust that whenever their creations are sold, they'll receive a share of that.
00:30:03:10 - 00:30:28:12
Unknown
Yeah, I'm not sure I fundamentally agree with the idea of royalties for one big reason, which is what they're making money primarily off of, which is secondary market transactions. If you are making something of quality that people want, that people buy a via primary sale and want to keep, you're not going to make money off royalties because there's no royalties to be had because people are keeping what you sell to them.
00:30:29:09 - 00:30:52:06
Unknown
Like that is like if the value proposition is enough that you want to keep my thing, why are you selling it? It it doesn't become a used good. It doesn't diminish in durability and you sell it because it's like I don't need it anymore necessarily. Now there's that idea of secondhand goods like selling for cheaper, right? But the idea that you should be primarily driving your profit like, Yeah, like you said, it doesn't have to be the only source of profit.
00:30:52:06 - 00:31:15:15
Unknown
But if your main source of profit is people selling to each other, what are you incentivizing or incentivizing profit flipping? Because that's the main reason people are going to trade to each other is because there's some sort of profit. If you had or they're done with the good. Now, I'm not saying there isn't viable ways to like sustainably set it up so that using a good for a period of time and then trading someone else makes sense.
00:31:16:00 - 00:31:35:07
Unknown
But at the same time you think about what you're incentivizing, why you would incentivize that, whether or not that's actually a good thing for your ecosystem or whether you're just getting people to sell again to the to the next sucker. And that's a big, big problem is we don't necessarily really align why people are selling things with why there's a royalty and a fee in the first place.
00:31:35:07 - 00:31:51:22
Unknown
We just think, hey, a creator should benefit from other people making profit off of secondary sales. That's what we're thinking is we're like, Hey, if they're making profit off of like, Oh, I didn't make a great amount off my primary sale and people are making profit off my secondary sale. I should get a cut of that because they're making profit there.
00:31:52:08 - 00:32:13:06
Unknown
But that's a profit driven motive and that's a situation that's more of an art kind of world thing where people are like flipping these things to other suckers and stuff. That's a very art centric mentality, whereas I don't think that necessarily always makes sense for games, depending on the game's model, whether or not trading, for example, is part, let's say people are generating nfts in the game and they want to be trading those because it's a good they're trading.
00:32:13:11 - 00:32:31:01
Unknown
That makes sense because is a trade market and you're taking a trading fee essentially for that. And that is a situation where like I think the incentives align. But I think we need to think about where were placing these royalties, whether or not they actually make sense there or if we're just trying to get it get a chunk of everyone's trades at the end of the day.
00:32:31:01 - 00:32:54:09
Unknown
And I don't think it always makes sense. So you're agreeing with my point? I am. I just make the point that like, let's also think about royalties and not just slap them on everything. I think that's fair. But I would say that I think royalties like make I can already give you five examples where royalties still make sense, even without assuming that people will be selling it for profits.
00:32:54:20 - 00:33:20:00
Unknown
I think, you know, like a franchise model is one example where there's a fully capped amount of slots and you know, people will want to like there's other than profit reasons why people will want to part ways with the asset that they hold, which is a franchise slot as one example. Another example could be, you know, I can see a game live where there's only 10,000 copies of the game existing at the same time.
00:33:20:00 - 00:33:40:04
Unknown
All of these models depend on the artificial scarcity, though. Well, so what? I mean, like you can pick artificial seeds, you can probably build an interesting game around, Oh, there's only 100 copies of this. And so only hundred people can be playing this game at the same time. And if you want to pass, if you want to, if you've played the game games, you finished a game, you're going to sell it, right?
00:33:40:13 - 00:33:56:06
Unknown
Like I can see an interesting game being built around that. So my point is that I just don't like the direction of let's force everything to be artificially scarce just for the sake of driving up value, not for the sake of it actually making sense. I think that's agreed. Agreed. Okay. I guess we're saying seeing the same thing.
00:33:57:11 - 00:34:21:01
Unknown
Okay, we can we can follow this. Or maybe Phil wants to wants to put something spicy and disagree with the two of us, you know? Yeah. Get in there, Phil. No, I mean, I think I agree. Like, I don't like artificial scarcity, but I mean, scarcity will have a place in gaming, right? I mean, just like in, in traditional collectibles, the value of something is kind of a function of scarcity and desirability, right?
00:34:21:01 - 00:34:47:16
Unknown
Where those two things really drive a lot of value. And I think that all kind of boils down to the sense of status which we see often in video games and flexing and the the prominence of wanting to show off your digital identity. And so I think as we as we've seen a lot of a lot of game NFT is that's that's kind of the function it's to show status and by limiting that that quantity, you're kind of promoting that desirability.
00:34:47:16 - 00:35:24:20
Unknown
And so there's this like natural value accrual that's happening there that is is both intentional and also market driven. So I, I, I don't think everything needs to be scarce, but when there is scarcity, I think I understand the the the vision for royalties being implemented because honestly a lot a lot of game companies are probably really scared about the trade off of the lost value of of primary sales being infinite where you can just continuously sell the same replicated skin for $25 versus having 10,000 of these skins.
00:35:24:20 - 00:35:46:04
Unknown
And hopefully the secondary market volume offsets the losses in the primary sale. So so yeah, I think, you know, there's a place for it, but I don't think everything needs to be scarce. That's that's just not not to imagine a world where like video games instead of like, let's say I go on Steam and there's like 10,000 copies of a game and that's it.
00:35:46:19 - 00:36:01:20
Unknown
And if I want a copy of that game, I have to wait till someone else is done and they want to sell it to me on the on the steam marketplace. So steam can get there, kind of that. Devin It's so weird. Devin You're thinking too. Skeuomorphic All right. But that's exactly what we're doing with NFT. Is that gate access but already done that.
00:36:01:22 - 00:36:17:08
Unknown
You can't really do that with a multiplayer game either because that's almost going to be like a virtual land issue or you're going to layer liquidity problems. And of those 10,000 players, how many are going to be on at the same time I stop, it's you. Yeah, I, I'm not the one thinking this stuff. This is the way people are acting about it.
00:36:17:08 - 00:36:39:09
Unknown
That's my problem. It's other people doing this dumb stuff. That's what I'm like anticipating people doing dumb stuff like this. Oh, Anyway, Nico thinks we're. We're both being there. Very. So. Morphic. Yeah, that's like, my my, the buzzword. The buzzword. But it's like, if you're annoying me, I'm just going to call you Skeuomorphic morphing. Yeah. Go. Go somewhere else.
00:36:39:18 - 00:37:02:04
Unknown
It's not a podcast for Skeuomorphic thinking maybe we should call this the Non Skeuomorphic podcast to stop calling it a podcast in this that that name is too scheme. It's true, That's true. We had three new iPod and we're not on the iPod anymore, So no. So what I'm saying is, you know, seeing like, oh, having only limited copies of the game exist right now on Steam, like doesn't make sense.
00:37:02:10 - 00:37:30:17
Unknown
And I agree. If you look at any game on Steam, it does make sense. It All right. I'm just saying like I've we've actually I think in our discord already hypothesis hypothesized about like a game where you finish it and then like some part of your gameplay remains in the game that you didn't sell on that someone else can play that they then like are influenced by like there's a tons of ways where this can work, but it just like you can't points at an existing game and say like, Oh, this is how it will work.
00:37:30:18 - 00:37:53:20
Unknown
Just because we now have this fundamentally new technology where we can do new things and we just ascribes like what I just described as an example, it's probably not going to make sense or it's not going to be done in the near future because I'm not aware of anyone building it. But I'm just saying that in an experiment like that with GDC that, there was a pretty big thing with the Minecraft world that was like pie and person person just as a reference if people I think you appreciate that.
00:37:54:07 - 00:38:16:20
Unknown
So yeah, my point being that's agreed that looking at the existing games today's today this is not going to make sense similarly to you know royalties don't make a lot of sense for games today but I'm I'm pretty sure that in the future will have games that are built around royalties where it does make sense. And I think building big economies kind of already fits that bill.
00:38:17:03 - 00:38:35:07
Unknown
I do think like if you can build a game like event line and it's just completely free to play, but you take a tiny fraction of every transaction in the economy. I think that somewhere makes sense because in the end there's still value creation within the game, which is the fun and people are willing to put money in because then they can advance faster and can do more cool shit.
00:38:36:00 - 00:39:04:07
Unknown
I guess too, because we're all saying like, Oh, this will exist. And you know, it's also like an interesting way to monetize. But you know, there's also other ways to monetize my question for you guys is a discussion could have been had 12 years ago or maybe a little bit more ago where it was sort of free to play versus maybe book sales type of discussion rights where people were like, oh, no, free to play doesn't make sense, right?
00:39:04:07 - 00:39:25:09
Unknown
In the words like these two camps. And we have these similar dynamics going on right now and a bit good of the good have been made then, which was what's going to drive more revenues. Is it going to be free to play the dynamics with in-app purchases, freemium types of of of approaches or maybe even like ads or is it going to be boxed sales?
00:39:26:01 - 00:39:55:12
Unknown
I'm actually like pretty sure that, you know, more than 50% was probably pointed at boxed sales depends on when right because it depends on if we're talking in pre horse armor or after horse. Exactly. The good old Skyrim Wars. And so I guess my question for you guys is in terms of let's try to put a number on it in terms of overall gaming revenue royalties, what percentage will royalties be?
00:39:55:12 - 00:40:14:05
Unknown
Is this or maybe give us a range? Is this less than 5% is is between five and let's say 20% or more than 20? I think these are maybe interesting ranges to talk about. Perhaps you disagree and then you think it's like, oh, it's either one or 2%. I just I see both of you thinking. I mean, it doesn't Good.
00:40:14:05 - 00:40:25:06
Unknown
I guess. So it's this is a similar problem to the free to play thing, right. Where when you think about royalties you're thinking about okay, I'm not I'm competing with my own primary sales. Right. But you I guess you would have thought the same thing about free to play. You're like, why am I giving away the game for free?
00:40:25:09 - 00:40:41:17
Unknown
I'm competing with my box sales, right? And so it is kind of a similar situation where like it seems counterintuitive, where you would be like, why would I do this? Why would I try and get other people to sell to each other when I could just sell directly to each of those people individually, Like I'm cannibalizing my own sales.
00:40:42:04 - 00:41:01:23
Unknown
And so I think we can figure out a model that makes sense similar to what we do with Free to Play, which was actually really built around LiveOps and adding content and selling that content individually and was more based on DLC than it was around the box model then I think we yeah, if we could find a way that trading makes a lot more sense in the game, then I could see it being like dominating the model.
00:41:01:23 - 00:41:23:11
Unknown
As long as liquidating trade volume makes sense for that to be facilitated, as long as the marketplace wars get to a point where, like it makes sense, we're not constantly fighting over the stupid stuff, then yeah, I think that could take over. Okay, so your answer is, let's say more than 25%. I think it could be if we could figure out a business model similar to what we did with free to play versus box.
00:41:23:15 - 00:41:46:11
Unknown
Yeah. Then I think I mean, my question is not obviously if we can make it work and of course if the okay, let's just say yes, yes, we'll figure it out for money motivated. So yes, okay. We're going to figure it out and it's going to be more than 25%. Phil Yeah, okay. I was I was kind of thinking in the same realm of we're assuming that what they're gaming takes off and secondary trading is actually an important part of the average.
00:41:46:12 - 00:42:08:20
Unknown
The average business model, the first number that came into my mind was 20 to 30%. And I'm just I'm thinking purely off of keeping primary sales where as a as a game maker, you're effectively keeping 100% of that. And assume that royalties land somewhere between like two and a half and 5% in perpetuity and each asset gets flipped a few times.
00:42:10:02 - 00:42:38:04
Unknown
You know, I could see I could see some of these studios making primary sales plus 25% of the primary price, depending on how many times it gets flipped on average. So I don't I think at 20 to 30%, I'd say if you're game, though, you're thinking primary sales are dead to like free to ideas, you know, the free to own and all that stuff is the idea is that similar to free to play where you're ditching the box model giving away the game for free.
00:42:38:09 - 00:42:53:07
Unknown
I think you still get the same kind of thing. No, I don't know if that's the business model based on royalties because of course we don't know anything about what they're building necessarily. But he's already talked about even like different royalty models and things like that. Obviously put smart contracts. So obviously royalties are some kind of fact. Right.
00:42:53:07 - 00:43:13:10
Unknown
And trading things around is a factor. He releases limited selection, limited collections, and there's like trading and minting of those and all that stuff. They've already made, I guess not profit, but they've made some revenue off of royalties. And so maybe we do just eventually shift to model where you get a lot more initial traction and velocity by giving it away for free.
00:43:13:14 - 00:43:36:02
Unknown
And I think Gabe's point, which is that at some point attention again becomes a problem, right? So discoverability with box games becomes a problem. So what do you do? You make it easier for people to try the game with free, right? Same way. Shareware was a big pioneering thing. So I think maybe free to own in the sense of like giving out free nfts or making the nfts acquire able for free in the game a game that is free to play.
00:43:36:11 - 00:43:57:15
Unknown
And then the secondary market then handles a profit. Maybe that does take over. Maybe we ditch primary sales just because of discoverability, competition, things we have to deal with in terms of getting people into the market. But that is a pretty interesting view of the next iteration of Free to Play, where we're no longer just giving you the game and then feeding you sales of assets.
00:43:57:19 - 00:44:17:16
Unknown
We're giving you the game, we're giving you the assets, and then you all go figure out what these are worth yourselves. And maybe that's kind of game strategy of really unlocking the next level of whales where he wants people selling his assets for a quarter million dollars, million dollars because it's just free market and the desirability is determined by the crowd.
00:44:17:16 - 00:44:33:18
Unknown
And there's no, like there's no base anchor price where, oh, I bought this skin for $50, now I'm going to trade it for 75. It's you all go figure out what this is worth. And that would be kind of a radical transition, but an interesting evolution of free to play. I think we're not something you were saying before, Nico.
00:44:34:21 - 00:44:52:16
Unknown
The thing that gets me most excited about Web3 gaming is actually the fact that while some of what we talk about doesn't apply to games today, it almost is going to force creativity in the way games are built and designed to kind of align with these economic models. And we saw that with free to play last time around.
00:44:52:16 - 00:45:17:22
Unknown
Right. Like the prominence of Forever games today is is in part because you have to make it make sense to give away a game for free. And keeping somebody in there for 10 to 15 years is the most effective way to monetize. And you can monetize those users to an extent that box sales never could have done. And I think we will see a lot of people that are far more creative than me think of interesting ways to make these models that we're talking about work.
00:45:18:02 - 00:45:41:18
Unknown
And that's that's one of the most exciting things about this, this entire space that we're operating in. And I think sometimes it does get lost that not all of this makes sense for games today. And maybe the value of just owning an NFT doesn't really matter. And if you just stick it on to League of Legends, which seems to be the frame of mind that we often default to, but, you know, if you think of different social hierarchies, you can build within games.
00:45:42:02 - 00:45:59:12
Unknown
There's some there's some pretty cool stuff that can be done. So that's that's what keeps me optimistic a lot of the time. I feel like the framework overall to think about this stuff is market competition, whether it's talking about the marketplaces or games in general, because you look at the evolution of games, right the way we had to evolve to free to play because we needed to get people playing our games.
00:45:59:23 - 00:46:17:06
Unknown
And it got to the point, if you look at the current state of the mobile free to play market, we're buying players at this point. We're literally saying, can we make enough profit to afford to buy players? So not only are we are we competing to give away our game for free, we're actually spending money just to give away a game for free at this point.
00:46:17:11 - 00:46:34:14
Unknown
So it's always these market competition forces, whether like the way the discussion started around marketplaces and having to compete for that market share games are going to have to do the same thing. So if you always think in that framework of like at some point everyone copies each other, right? And so whatever marketplace it happens to be will always become crowded.
00:46:34:14 - 00:46:51:15
Unknown
If it's successful. If it's not successful, well, it gets cold, right? Evolution, style. And so if the stuff is successful, then what is going to be the thing that helps you stand out enough to compete with the rest of the market? And how much do you have to, like, sacrifice your own stuff and then find another way to make money?
00:46:51:23 - 00:47:11:14
Unknown
And so I guess that's where royalties do fit into this conversation, is go, okay, well, I sacrifice this one thing in order to make money somewhere else. And so if you're thinking from that kind of framework, royalties make sense as well. Here's some way I'm allowed to sacrifice primary sales in a way that I could still be financially viable.
00:47:11:14 - 00:47:33:15
Unknown
It's interesting how 20 minutes ago I was arguing for creator royalties and you were like, Oh no, it's not that important. And now you're like, Oh, it's going to be 20 to 30% of global gaming revenue. Now there's the context, man. Okay, That nuance. So we're talking about the future. We're going to evolve even over a 45 minute conversation through True Scotland onscreen.
00:47:33:15 - 00:47:59:21
Unknown
Morph is it'll be thinking ten years ahead. We are thinking 20 years ahead, man, I would. So you guys got me thinking. So my initial answer to the question like, what percentage of the global gaming revenue will be taken up by royalties was going to be? I would say initially I thought around 10%. But so for me, there's two ways in which these make sense.
00:47:59:21 - 00:48:37:09
Unknown
I think royalties make sense in the types of non-school morphing games that we described earlier where, you know, like being able to sell the game is like part of the gaming experience in some way, right? And so but I think that that's going to be very niche. And so the big way in which royalties will like if royalties ever become a major way in which gaming companies actually monetize, I think that will be through very big open economies like imagine World of Warcraft, tombstone, open economy, and there's a and I don't think we're we're talking we're not we're not going to be talking even single.
00:48:37:17 - 00:49:09:02
Unknown
Maybe we are talking single digit percentage fees but is going to be pretty low. Like it's not going to be 10%. I think the very big economy like there will literally rival like nation state economies will probably see, let's say, between a 0.5 and a 10.5 and a 5% royalties on every single transaction. So even if you, you know, sell a piece of cloth for, you know, what is it like a tiny amount of in-game currency, then you'll pay just a tiny fee on that and no one will really notice.
00:49:09:15 - 00:49:27:15
Unknown
But because the game is just so huge and everyone's in it, the creator of the game will monetize that way. And so if we live in a future where, you know, one of these games really pops off like five x Fortnite pops off, then I can I can imagine that's royalties will be a significant part of, of global gaming revenue.
00:49:29:13 - 00:49:46:18
Unknown
Yeah. It's just a question whether or not that's the business model or something else. Right. Like I think they're Yeah. At the end of the day we need to find something, some way to deal with the fact that primary sales are tricky, right? Like I said, it becomes a bottleneck for getting new customers. And so we start to look like that whole conversation that we had last episode.
00:49:46:18 - 00:50:01:17
Unknown
You know, like I said about about where we're going to with you and like to the point we're having to trick people with fake ads just to get them to install it, you know, like it's it's getting hyper competitive, as it probably should be, right? Like that helps cool stuff out. But the business models have to evolve each thing.
00:50:01:17 - 00:50:19:23
Unknown
Each time it gets competitive like that, we have to then go, okay, well now we need to rethink the service model. And I don't know if royalties are it necessarily, but I think there's obviously some potential there. Right. And that's that's why it's kind of like I do agree with you that they have potential. Niko. I just don't know if they're it because they incentivize certain things.
00:50:20:05 - 00:50:35:07
Unknown
And so I think if we could find, like the right way to do them, then I think they do make sense. I just don't know if we've done that yet. So I don't I don't think I don't think we're the current state of where things are make sense to me. But I think maybe a few years down the road it'll totally make sense.
00:50:35:07 - 00:50:58:01
Unknown
And so I guess I'll put it that way. It's like timeline wise right now is kind of just a little degenerate, which I'd like to see evolve. Yeah, And like the marketplaces, we're going to see games, teams experimenting with all of this stuff and like Free to Own is, is a good example of this where to something Devin mentioned earlier we went from box sales which are high friction to free to play, which was low friction.
00:50:58:07 - 00:51:19:19
Unknown
But now that everything's so low friction it's almost high friction again because everything's so accessible. And so maybe the next step is we're not only going to give you the game for free, we're going to give you something that could be valuable for free as well. And because of that, you're going to choose our free game. Because not only is it zero expected value for you, it's actually positive expected value from the first time you ever open it up.
00:51:19:19 - 00:51:38:14
Unknown
So, I mean, cheaper than spending money on ads to buy customers, right? If that's maybe that's a cheaper form of you, I imagine it probably has been for limit break for what their strategy is is looking at as a you play and like we've talked about things like vampire attacks and other ways of like looking at nfts and giving away free nfts as user acquisition.
00:51:38:21 - 00:52:02:00
Unknown
So like at the end of the day, I think there's absolute validity in the strategy of Nfts as a user acquisition model by giving them away and we see people doing it for scams all the time too, with airdrops. Think that obviously Blur just did it with their token, right? Like where they're like hey let's let's pull looks rare and just like steal customers via a token excitement which who knows I haven't looked into their token but I imagine it's probably some kind of dumb, unsustainable model.
00:52:02:00 - 00:52:24:12
Unknown
They almost always are. But you know it's you is like at the end of the day, like attention is limited, population's limited. We have to do something to be to get market share and gains are going to be even more in a place like that where it's really competitive to try and give people like right now we're in a place where like there's so few games to play in Web3 that it's like, Hey, if you made something that's half decent, cool, you're already halfway there.
00:52:24:12 - 00:53:03:20
Unknown
But at some point, you know, it's like early mobile, right? Where it's like if you made something halfway decent, it's pretty easy to get that $0.99. But, you know, nowadays, try launch something on the App Store without like millions of dollars behind it. Good luck. I think my my final observation, you know, you guys talking sparked another insight I think is that's the the monetization defines the game meaning that there are very few games that could be monetized either through primary sales or through subscription or through, you know, in-app purchases, etc..
00:53:04:13 - 00:53:32:00
Unknown
So depending on the way you monetize, that will define the game in itself. And so trying to figure out the most successful monetization tactic or we one of those moving forwards, actually the answer to that question is for that monetization tactic. The kind of game that fits best, like what types of games will be most successful in the future.
00:53:32:11 - 00:53:54:09
Unknown
And so so the point is you have different monetization styles, different games that are best suited to those. And so the question is not necessarily what monetization was best, that the question is actually what game resulting from the monetization style will be most successful. So I guess that's that's my my final observation. I kind of have an answer to that too.
00:53:54:15 - 00:54:10:06
Unknown
So right now, like, you know, I talk about like trading card games and other things. I have secondary markets. I don't think those are actually well-suited to that future because they don't do anything interesting with the secondary market. You're selling a card, you just don't want the idea of selling something you just don't want I think is too simplistic for that.
00:54:10:06 - 00:54:27:23
Unknown
I think we need reasons for people to exchange stuff with each other more than just wanting something or someone else desiring something more than you, things like that. When you start looking at why changing hands matters in some way and evolving. So like I know Limit Break was trying to do interesting stuff with like combining the nfts and like burning them itself.
00:54:28:02 - 00:55:02:14
Unknown
I still feel like that's a little rudimentary, but it gets to this idea of like transforming where people in this secondary market flow are doing more than just owning and disowning. There's something happening in this value flow that changes this thing, or there's a reason for it to change hands and I don't know what like the concrete answer to that is, but I think that's where we start thinking is like if we want value for happen, from exchanging things, from from selling and trading and royalties and stuff like that, then we need to think about like that, why that exchange is meaningful and not just because it's a marketplace.
00:55:02:21 - 00:55:23:07
Unknown
And I think if you start to go that path and come up some really interesting answers, then maybe you'll be ahead of the curve on that. That's good. All right. This was a really fun episode. Thank you, guys. Good discussion. Obviously, we didn't invent many new things here, but I at least learned things from you. So appreciate that.
00:55:23:20 - 00:55:43:22
Unknown
So, Devin Phil, thank you for joining me. Listener, you most of all thank you for listening or watching wherever you're listening or watching this. If you liked it, feel free to give us a like and subscribe. That's always very much appreciated. If you want to join this conversation, if you have your own thoughts, we have a special channel in our Discord.
00:55:44:15 - 00:56:14:20
Unknown
If you want to tell Devin and Phil that they're wrong, feel free to come do so. And yeah, I hope to to see in the discourse and look forward to speaking with you in the next episode. Joe.