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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Julie: Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, conversations about leadership, culture, wellbeing, and how we create the conditions in schools where people can truly thrive. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Lisa Lea-Weston. Lisa is the founder and director of Talking Heads Supervision. Lisa has supervised in education for 20 years, but established Talking Heads in 2018 with an epiphany [00:00:25] moment.
[00:00:25] A head suggested Lisa could make a difference to thousands of children's lives if she offered that supervision thing to heads. Talking Heads Supervision is the world's largest provider of long-term, robust, regular supervision, and Lisa provides all the quality assurance for education supports professional supervision across the UK.
[00:00:46] If you have ever wondered what supervision is, how it could benefit you [00:00:50] or your organization, or the role that it plays in our schools, this is a conversation worth a listen. Lisa is brilliant. She's passionate about the positive role supervision can play, both at an individual and a systemic level, but most of all, in how it benefits our children and young people.
[00:01:08] In this conversation, we chat about what supervision is, the importance of safeguarding the safeguarder, and the role [00:01:15] of creativity within supervision, as well as David Byrne, Alan Bennett, and yellow things. Enjoy.
[00:01:26] Lisa, good morning. Great to have you here today. How are you?
[00:01:30] Lisa: Morning, Julie. Uh, yeah, I'm good, thank you. In, uh, the gray circumstances of Devon, I am very good.
[00:01:36] Julie: Oh, is it gray today in Devon?
[00:01:38] Lisa: It is. Do we not cover the weather in [00:01:40] our little warmer? No, it's very gray. It's gray and cold.
[00:01:43] Julie: Okay, well, it's a little bit sunny up here, but it is cold.
[00:01:45] It certainly doesn't feel very May-like, that's for sure. Well, good. Lovely to have you here today, uh, Lisa. So originally a drama therapist, then clinical supervisor, now founder and director of Talking Heads. But before I get to the questions, firstly, when I was doing my background research, can I just say, though, when you Google [00:02:05] Talking Heads, the band comes up first, like, which is really cool.
[00:02:09] Was that intentional?
[00:02:12] Lisa: It was a February half term back in 2016, and I couldn't think, when I was on the School for Social Entrepreneurs startup program, what I was gonna call this supervision in education thing that I was passionate about, and I woke up, tapped my wife on the head and goes, "I'm gonna [00:02:30] call it Talking Heads."
[00:02:31] Because as a drama therapist, there are of course the talking heads, like the Alan Bennet. Then there's the band, and my eldest is, like, passionate about music, and then there's talking heads. So I just... I was beside myself with excitement at this creative title for Supervision in Education.
[00:02:50] Julie: I love that. I was just...
[00:02:52] It just, like, kind of sent me off on a rabbit hole, and I was wondering whether [00:02:55] David Byrne gets sick of people asking him if he does supervision.
[00:02:58] Lisa: Probably not yet- So ... but let's... I think David Byrne would be passionate about supervision and drama therapy.
[00:03:04] Julie: If he's listening- Yeah, yeah ... let's hope he gets in touch, eh?
[00:03:06] Yeah.
[00:03:07] Lisa: Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:08] Julie: So anyway, Lisa, tell me your story then. So you started out as a drama therapist. Um, how did your experience in clinical supervision evolve into [00:03:20] Talking Heads, not the band, um, and really, like, y- you're now part of a national movement for Supervision in Education, so just be great to hear a little bit about your background.
[00:03:30] Lisa: Well, I did once, many, many years ago, back 1998, think that I was gonna... 'Cause I trained as an actor originally, actually. That was my first training. Um, and I spent some time being an out-of-work actor, obviously, um [00:03:45] in London. And then I was at university, and I thought, "I'm gonna do a degree 'cause I'm clearly not gonna get much work as an actor here."
[00:03:53] Um, and I thought, "I'll be a teacher because I'm not sure what else you do with a drama background." Um, and, yes, but- Kind of thankfully for the entire profession, um, I had like a summer job while I... to fund university and I was working to support [00:04:10] young people with a learning disability to access mainstream play schemes.
[00:04:15] And when I look back, like I learnt so much from that summer job which then was a job that I did for quite a few years as I went on to train as a drama therapist 'cause the manager of that project, which still exists in Oxford, said to me, "Lisa, do you know how it is that you're working with Pete?" And I was like, "No."
[00:04:32] She went, and he was non-verbal, [00:04:35] autistic, amazing young man, and I was having so much fun with him, kind of being with him and mirroring him and building a relationship and mirroring and modeling his sounds and she was like, "Drama therapy." And I was like, "What's that?" Went home and looked it up and I was like, "That is what I want to do."
[00:04:52] So yeah, so I did my training. So for 26 years, I, I remain... You cannot take the drama therapist bit away, and it's always [00:05:00] been about children and young people. Um, and really... And I did have a little time out in the NHS for 10 years, um, where I was clinician and supervisor, but working for people with profound multiple learn disabilities, which again, very much involve working with the system to hold change.
[00:05:20] So like I've kind of cut my teeth in several ways really, but the non-verbal aspects of [00:05:25] my work, the fact that creativity is a language that we all have, but somehow or other we've named creativity with productivity, and it's a no. Creativity's just a way of being. It's about how do we problem solve when we don't know something, or how do we use the other 80% of our language skills?
[00:05:44] You know, c- verbal language is a tiny amount of our communication. So for me, it's a really [00:05:50] important thread in this ongoing work. And actually, I'm writing about at the moment, um, in a book I'm co-editing, about how that mirrors the language of children and young people. So it sort of all kind of has come together.
[00:06:03] But for me, the formation of Talking Heads Supervision came from a head teacher where I was doing predominantly drama therapy in school, working with children that, who looked after. Um, but I was also doing some [00:06:15] supervision and private practice and a lot of adoption breakdown work. And he said to me, "Lise, imagine how many children's lives you would change if you did that supervision thing for head teachers."
[00:06:25] And that was true because the more schools I was going in, the more people, teachers, head teachers, I would get delayed trying to get out the front door because they kept wanting to talk. And of course, as a child adolescent therapist, so [00:06:40] often it was like sitting with actually education here needs like more support and care around this work because the problem is not just with this young person, it's with the system that they are a part of.
[00:06:53] So it was like a real epiphany moment, and that is where Talking Heads has come from. It's like everything in my career just kind of crashed into one moment. So I still do a little [00:07:05] tiny bit of drama therapy to keep it real with teenagers. Um, and I love that work, and that's just once a week. But the rest of my work now is, yes, pr- it, it's all supervision in education, and it's, yeah, it is making sense to people, like you say, so that's beyond exciting to me.
[00:07:24] That is-
[00:07:24] Julie: Amazing. It's amazing. And, um, I wanna talk about the creativity a little bit kind of [00:07:30] later on, um, 'cause I think that's a really interesting angle. But can we just maybe, for anybody who's sort of, um, listening who might not- Really understand what supervision is. Can you tell us what it is in the educational context?
[00:07:45] Lisa: It is the same in the educational context as it is in social work and mental health, where it is absolutely established and people are within, have [00:07:55] supervision, and they know they're gonna have supervision. It's mandated from the moment that they train, and I've been wanting to bring that into education.
[00:08:01] So it's the same thing. And Claire Dora Nash was speaking last week about the importance of SENCOs also having supervision. DSLs need supervision, and we see lots of DSLs, SENCOs, but we begin with the headteacher. But
[00:08:14] supervision is essentially a work-based conversation that's confidential, apart [00:08:20] from safeguarding concerns, um, where you take all of who you are and how you are at work.
[00:08:25] Because, uh, to quote Claire, "It is a thinking, feeling job." So we get a buildup when we work with other human beings around the impact of trying to be our best selves at work, wanting to do our best day in, day out, being met with challenge. It's emotionally and cognitively demanding, and without somewhere [00:08:45] to regularly kind of release that buildup in tension, we start to get really tired.
[00:08:49] Like, that's just really normal Um, and that's why supervision is very normal in mental health and social work. It's not something, you know, which is starting, you know, seeing those questions in education. People are, "There's nothing wrong with me," or, "I can cope." Well, it's never been about there being anything wrong with you.
[00:09:06] It's in those other professions, which is where we'll get to in [00:09:10] education. It's mandated because it just recognises the weight of the work, the emotional labor, and it doesn't matter how awesome you are, no one can keep going.
[00:09:19] Lisa: Is that clear enough?
[00:09:20] Julie: Yeah. Totally clear and, and you know, it's interesting because in the work that we do at Still Human, we talk a lot about recognizing this emotional and cognitive load and the types of energies that you're using when you're working in education.
[00:09:34] So that's [00:09:35] really interesting, and I suppose very different then to coaching or mentoring. Would that be right?
[00:09:42] Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. So in ter- my 26-year career, I've been in supervision ongoingly. I have three hours a month myself. Coaching and mentoring, mentoring tends to be more a... Well, I don't want to give definitions of things that I'm not qualified for, but, you know, supervision is an ongoing kind of process that [00:10:00] catches where you are each month.
[00:10:02] Coaching usually has sort of goals. It's outcome driven and also it's about you, the coachee, and mentoring is about you, the mentee, in your role, whereas supervision is fundamentally about you in relationship with the beneficiary. So in this case, children and young people. So you attend supervision to think about children and young people.
[00:10:21] It doesn't matter where that conversation goes in that hour [00:10:25] because it goes where it's needed on, with what's on top that month. But fundamentally, you are there to think about children and young people and that's, and it's the only professional confidential conversation that, where that is the remit. So it's very different and it's on, it, it should be ongoing.
[00:10:43] Julie: I, I think I've, I've heard you describe it as breathing for work. Is it you who said that? Yeah. Oh, good. Like, [00:10:50] now I'm just gonna maybe be like credit you with that, Lisa, and it's actually we've stolen it from someone else. That is me.
[00:10:55] Lisa: Yeah. No, it's absolutely, that is, it is breathing for work. It's like you go no matter how you're feeling because every time is an investment, like breathing exercise.
[00:11:06] You know, you're just building up your own resilience and capacities, but also you're investing in, over our careers, lifetimes, we all [00:11:15] face fluctuations in how we are at work. I mean, that's just normal. We all will get sick, people we love get sick. We all face challenges at work. We have, as we get older, bereavements.
[00:11:25] We go through life stage changes, the menopause. You know, bringing up teenagers and trying to work is very challenging, and I don't think we talk about that enough, and we definitely... People parenting their teenagers that comes into supervision, you know, and trying to balance [00:11:40] bringing up their teenagers with the fact that they're- parent is very poorly and they're a headteacher.
[00:11:45] You know, this, it's, it's ... They're very rich conversations around when we get pulled in different directions, and those things all impact on our capacities to make ethical decisions at work. And then of course we have times where we're flying, you know? And those are As [00:12:05] important. And part of the investment there is when we're sat with our supervisees that we've worked with for a long time, or when my supervisor has sat with me, it is also known what we're...
[00:12:14] It is known what we're like when we're on fire, and that actually we hold that kind of hope as well because you, like, when the person then we're feeling really messy, the person also knows that we're not just a mess, we're also capable of being on fire. They know [00:12:30] how to help you get back there. They can hold the reminder of, do you remember when?
[00:12:36] Yeah, that's very important. That's part of the longevity of it. It's not a, it's not an intervention. It is breathing for work.
[00:12:44] Julie: So I, I suppose what I'm hearing there then is that this, it's not time-bound, it's not solution-focused. No. It's... I think you said the word earlier, container. It's like [00:12:55] a container in which to pour all of that stuff.
[00:12:58] Lisa: All of it. Absolutely.
[00:13:00] Julie: Yeah. And, and so somebody kind of, you know, joined supervision or signed up for supervision, they'd kind of be committing to it as an ongoing part of their role.
[00:13:10] Lisa: Absolutely. And we're very clear about that in our meeting process around the expectations, around regularity, and that we hope that [00:13:20] this will become a sustainable practice.
[00:13:22] We're very clear about it's an open-ended contract, but what notice... Everything about it making it very kind of steady, that this is just the place that you show up to, it's pre-planned. You know, we meet you where you're at. When it's really good, it's kind of invisible. People forget they have it because, because it's working so well.
[00:13:41] It's actually only particularly visible when people are not having a [00:13:45] good experience in supervision, and you kind of have to have those tricky experiences of not good enough supervision to know when it's really good. And when it's really good, you sort of take it for granted because it's just planned for there in the background, and it props you up, and you know that you've got this safe space to kind of, safe but challenging space to go and be deeply supported.
[00:14:05] It's only when it's not good enough that it feels like somewhere you don't wanna [00:14:10] go or you don't wanna take your messy bits, that's when it's... And I definitely had not good enough supervision over the years. So we strive to provide good enough.
[00:14:19] Julie: So you've got... I, I know you've got a, a number of associates that, that work with you, haven't you, Lisa?
[00:14:24] Have you got around 50 supervisors? Yeah.
[00:14:26] Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Really just the most incredible team. Two people on my team, in that way that they say you should have a team more qualified than you are, um, [00:14:35] are my original tutors from 26 years ago, and my very first supervisor. She'll be cringing if she listens to this.
[00:14:43] But I, I mean, I still kind of can't believe that. It's, it's a real honor. But also that, you know, everyone on my team is so experienced that the questions and the learning that we're doing together, like, every day to then bring to this sector With love and care is, it... Yeah, I'm just, [00:15:00] I'm really lucky to have such an amazing team.
[00:15:03] I'm loving it. I love working with them.
[00:15:05] Julie: That's incredible. So I suppose is there something around a matching process then with, like a- Yes ... client? Yeah. Uh, 'cause I'm just thinking that can be the same in counseling, can't it? You can have a bad experience because that connection isn't there. How do you do the matching process?
[00:15:19] Is it a little bit like Cilla Black?
[00:15:21] Lisa: I think I do have a little bit of a Cilla Black reputation, [00:15:25] but also my, my team and the people we work with say that it just makes, which was, was always been my hope and I will never change it, I think makes a profound difference because I want people to hear that they matter.
[00:15:37] So I still do, myself and Shauna now, we, we both know our team really well by the ways that we are with our team and therefore, when we then go and speak to someone, we can really [00:15:50] kind of sit and listen to what it is that we think that they need and the questions we ask in the allocation call are not just who are you at work, but they include, and who, who do you love and how do you love and what you're passionate about outside of work because that matters.
[00:16:03] And that's usually the gold matching bit. You know, I can be listening to the context in the school and they'll be very passionate or mildly beleaguered on a spectrum, but the bit where I'm like just, I am not quite [00:16:15] there. Like, tell me like, do you love dancing? Do you like a book? If you had a spare moment, what is it or how do you like to be?
[00:16:21] The quirkier the better, and it's always that bit that really helps me with the, the matching. And it is, we're nearly seeing 600 people now and people, the lo- our longest client is from the beginning, 2017. Um, but most of our, all of our clients have been with us for years, apart from obviously the ones who've just begun.
[00:16:39] And so I [00:16:40] think that is testimony to it, but it's satisfying because it is reciprocal. So I complete, once I've done the allocation call, I'll then chat to my team member so that they also listen and go, "Oh, brilliant, I can't wait to work with them," because I know them and I know what's gonna set them on fire.
[00:16:57] And so that matching process is vital to everything that happens next. But they also hear me say, "If [00:17:05] somehow it doesn't work, that's human." Because I can be listening in this 10, 15 minutes, but fundamentally, chemistry between two people, you can get on the screen or in a room and go, "I can't stand you.
[00:17:15] Don't know what it is." Or even milder than that, "You're very nice, but this isn't working." When people come back to us, so far, which is very few, but I'm so proud when they do because we want to get it right for children and young people and no one goes to a supervisor that they [00:17:30] don't feel that they gel with.
[00:17:31] So I say that to them and they, people do come back and like I say, no one's really ever left, so we just sort it out And our needs change over the time. So it might be after eight or nine years, actually, you've grown so much, you've outgrown your supervisor or each other, and being able to be brave enough and normalizing that within talking heads and being able to go, "Well, you don't need to go somewhere else because there are 48 of us who will just [00:17:55] talk again and do the reallocation."
[00:17:57] So humans find saying to each other, "I don't really find this is working for me," like a really difficult process, so I try to be as upfront about that as possible. And it's often met with, "Oh, no, I'm sure I'll be fine." I'm like, "Well, just hear me." And I'm pleased when people have heard 'cause then we can get it right.
[00:18:16] Julie: Great, Lisa. I've got about five questions in my head, and I'm just trying to decide which direction to [00:18:20] go in. Can we go back to, um, when you were kind of explaining what supervision is, this idea that supervision kind of is putting the children and the young people at the heart of it and kind of... Can you just explain what you mean by that?
[00:18:36] Lisa: So the only reason supervision exists, so the same mental health social work, is to make sure that we can make ethical decisions around the work that we're doing, [00:18:45] so that's where they're at the heart. You know, if I were to take a difficulty about a colleague to counseling, that conversation would remain about me and about living my future life and how I am at home, and it'll look back at my childhood.
[00:19:00] It would not be of interest to the counselor about how that's impacting on my ethical decision-making at work or how I'm functioning or how I'm able to relate to others at work [00:19:10] for the benefit of children, and that's the difference. You know, if you go to supervision and you're talking, you might be talking about a child, although at a head teacher supervision level it's much more and often about the system, interpersonal relationships, HR.
[00:19:25] But the lens with which I'm listening to that is always about, for example, if we do nothing here, that's often a really good moment. If we've [00:19:35] chewed something over and over and we kind of go, but the ultimate, if we do nothing, what's the impact on children and young people? It's never as blunt as this 'cause it's relational, right?
[00:19:43] But that always is like, oh, that's the landing bit because of head teachers, CEOs, they're like, no one challenges them anymore. They can often feel like they forget that they have any impact on children and young people, [00:20:00] so... And yet it interrupts their sleep at night 'cause they're like, things are not okay or they're not right.
[00:20:06] So again, having a place that's like right here they are front and center between you and I, this is the system that you lead, and these are the children within it. We are in agreement that they fundamentally, no matter where we go, they are who we're focused on. So that's why it's fundamentally [00:20:25] still about safeguarding because you're looking at the culture that's created, you're looking at children and young people.
[00:20:30] Are you well enough to be making clear, good ethical decisions? Do you feel that you are acting in congruence with your moral compass? 'Cause that's the other thing that's, again, starts to make few people feel distressed at work when they're making decisions that are so far removed from what they believe is right [00:20:50] for children and young people and the job that they originally trained to do.
[00:20:54] I mean, that comes up a lot, you know. This is not how I thought I would be being at work. And supervision again helps them really kind of unpick that over time, 'cause this makes it sound a bit more coaching like when you unpick it like this, but it doesn't feel like that in the room because it's, it's an ongoing journey, but they are [00:21:15] absolutely sat between the supervisor and the supervisee all the time.
[00:21:20] Julie: Yeah, it's just that's safeguarding the safeguarders, isn't it?
[00:21:23] Lisa: Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:21:24] Julie: What do people report that the impact of supervision is? What are the benefits? What are the... What do you see? What are the, what do they say about having had supervision or have supervision, I should say?
[00:21:36] Lisa: I was gonna say 'cause it's ongoing, so, um, when people say to me about [00:21:40] evaluations for supervision or leaving, it's like, well, no one's left, so.
[00:21:43] Julie: That'd be cool.
[00:21:45] Lisa: That's, I, that is my data around that actually. However, I am... Oh, I'm so moved by sometimes when I get wind of something or people email me, and I still supervise, so people... I have my own supervisees. But impact in terms of individual, I mean, that can be across the spectrum [00:22:05] from... I know at the ASCL conference, headteacher that sat alongside me, so that's kind of being public.
[00:22:10] You know, she very much shared having supervision. She was done with the job, couldn't wait to retire So actually started supervision very late on in her career. But actually having supervision in place and the reasons for her feeling so overwhelmed were due to, for her, a young person that she couldn't make things better for.
[00:22:29] But since [00:22:30] she's put supervision in place and has had somewhere to be able to take that level of child protection, and that intensity of feeling and thinking and being self-activated as well, having her safe space has meant that now she's like, "I'm still gonna retire 'cause that's the age I'm at, but I'm back to loving my work, and I'm back to feeling like I am being impactful."
[00:22:49] And that's the difference for this child. Where we get feedback where we work [00:22:55] across a team, because actually we're increasingly the only current kind of organization that has capacity, and now experience because no one's ever done it before, to what it means to set up supervision at scale. So there what we hear from senior leadership teams, and we definitely know and get re- repeat feedback, is that the, the quality of challenge and courageous conversations amongst senior leaders who have supervision to say...
[00:23:19] [00:23:20] Where they're all in supervision with different supervisors, but through talking heads, and they'll be taking something that they're grappling with, and their capacity to be, to challenge each other in a really good way, whereas before they'd have festered on it and they wouldn't have felt safe. Now that everybody's got that kind of like external outlet where they're processing, they all come back together in a much more confident, settled, and clear way about what [00:23:45] it is that they want to think about.
[00:23:46] Does that make sense? Rather than it being messy or full or like when, again, humanly, as a any practitioner working with other human beings, other stakeholders annoy you or aren't doing what you want them to do for children and young people, and it's really tempting at the end of a long day to just bump out an email where you're just full of rage and, and, and shouting at them.
[00:24:08] The amount of times [00:24:10] supervision has managed to catch people in that place, slow all of that down so that the person then sends a very different email, which breeds very different outcomes of responsiveness rather than that's another angry email that that person also can't deal with 'cause maybe they don't have supervision at the end of the day, and they're really tired.
[00:24:29] And that's where, you know, systemically things go wrong. So supervision is a fantastic [00:24:35] interrupter To the system. I do feel that it is a mini act of revolution every time it happens and interrupts the potential for this very exhausted system, post-COVID actually, with some hope, and slowing it down, and time to think and pause.
[00:24:54] Where people get very little time to slow down, think and pause. And feel. Very little [00:25:00] time to feel, and feeling can feel very overwhelming if done on your own. So having a space in your diary to go, "Right, I'm gonna go do my thinking and feeling over there next Wednesday." It's also really safe, you know.
[00:25:11] That's why we say pre-plan it, because you can get full or you, you're like rrr and you... The more you've been in supervision, the more you become aware of the sense of build up, release, build up, release, build up, release. So you find yourself starting to [00:25:25] go, "When have I got supervision?" Look in your diary and go, "Ah, brilliant."
[00:25:28] So if something comes up that week, you're like, "It's all right, I've got supervision next week." And so many of our supervisees are like, "You literally save us time." And actually, that head at Ascott said, you know, she started off ticking a box thinking it's just a waste of time. It's not, because all that time you'd spend not sleeping, all that time you spend worrying, how it interrupts your weekend when you wish to be with your children, [00:25:50] but you're, instead you're worrying about a knotty issue.
[00:25:52] The fact you've got supervision on Tuesday, you don't need to do any of that because you know, if supervision is useful to you, that Tuesday will sort it out.
[00:26:02] Julie: I love it because, you know, as you know, the work that we do is kind of, we work on an organizational level, organizational strategies. We also look at kind of individual strategies for carrying that emotional load.
[00:26:14] But [00:26:15] given that, like, as you have explained there, we're containers for other people's emotions, 'cause that's what we are in education, isn't it? Particularly at leadership level. Um, uh, but you know, we're containers. And we often talk about finding those ways to empty that container. But actually, if that container is so full or it's constantly being topped up, that can be [00:26:40] really difficult to do, can't it?
[00:26:41] People... And, and you know, I'm always very conscious of that when I'm teaching people tools and techniques that, you know, maybe people know that, but they don't know how, or they can't see, or they can't find that space to be able to do it for themselves. So as you say, if it's diarized, and it's diarized as three weeks on Tuesday, it's about saying, "Right, it's okay because I see my safe [00:27:05] space over there where I can empty it."
[00:27:07] Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:09] Julie: So you mentioned that exhausted system. Do we think-
[00:27:13] Lisa: Oh, I was like, oh, are we going there? We're getting round the edges of that.
[00:27:16] Julie: Let's go there.
[00:27:19] Lisa: We kind of can't not go there, can we? Um- No ... and I know Claire was talking last week about supervision for SENCOs as well, and you know, I absolutely, I want, I want [00:27:30] really good quality supervision to be existing in education by the time I leave this earth.
[00:27:37] Um, I'm not sure if I'll manage it because I don't wanna hurry. Like, I'm really like, whatever pace you wanna do it at, can we slow it down at least twice? Because this is about relationships, it is about matching. It's not about computer, just, you know, that's not gonna work. And also you really need to support the supervisors because [00:27:55] actually Also, we're listening to this stuff all day.
[00:27:58] So, like, whoever your supervisor is needs to be really well-resourced and well met because otherwise they're con- where do they have all of their containment? So, you know, whatever systems we create for supervision in education, I hope that we pay attention to that because it needs to be a circle of resourced support.
[00:28:18] You can't just have, kinda go, "Well, [00:28:20] that's a bin over there. We'll put everything into supervision," but the supervisors get nothing. That's just, that's not gonna work. But that edge of not being okay is very much, that is the point where all of us need another human being because that's the point at which we are dysregulated, our insight starts to go.
[00:28:42] We're probably n- lot of n- more negative [00:28:45] self-talk. We're liable to be starting to shut down from connections with others. And so it is only through connection with other that we're gonna be able to get ourselves out of that. And while supervision, especially if it's gone in at a point where someone was m- more stable and, like, loving their work or just pottering along, you're more likely to be able to prevent burnout or someone becoming properly [00:29:10] unwell.
[00:29:10] But supervision, no matter how good the relationship, can't stop burnout because the, the reasons for someone being not okay, if it's to do with a culture that's really unhealthy, supervision on its own can't change that. But what it can change is still how that individual is around it and how they recognise that actually now it's time to step away.
[00:29:32] Because actually, if I don't step away, I will add to the [00:29:35] harm because my actions will no longer, uh, be ones from a place of reflection or insight or learning. They'll be reactive and, yeah, more scattergun.
[00:29:46] Julie: Yeah. Yeah. So- Because it is, isn't it? There's this, it's kinda two-pronged there, isn't it? It's internal impact on the person, but also impact then on decisions that are made that impact on the children, but also that reactivity, [00:30:00] which, as you said, can then impact on other colleagues within the organization.
[00:30:04] Lisa: Absolutely. No one can have a great big outward splurge. It lands on someone or in someone, impacts them, and if they're not feeling very resourced either, and that's how, that's that cycle of why we need to interrupt as much as possible in pausing and gathering our thoughts and our feelings and then being able to go back out [00:30:25] there.
[00:30:25] Julie: Yeah. The, the positive interrupter, that pressing the pause. So, um, uh, does that kind of explain where this sort of supervision embedded within to the culture idea is coming from? So I know that you're doing work now around, um- Training people up internally to have, like, a supervision system across the organization, would that be right?
[00:30:49] Can you kind of [00:30:50] explain that a little bit?
[00:30:51] Lisa: We've set that up within our kind of five-step model. So we're still very clear that we would hope, we're really clear about it, that we would hope that people were already in supervision themselves, so they knew something, they know something about supervision, and that they have b- and that the senior leaders are in supervision.
[00:31:10] So we don't kind of take on training where the, the kind of [00:31:15] framework that is likely to hold them in being successful to embed supervision is gonna happen. So the people that come on our training have likely been... They don't have to be in supervision with us, but they're in supervision somewhere.
[00:31:27] They've some experience before they attend the training, and we're certainly, within our training, it is a starter level training to an internal model. So not supervising all the kind of level of training [00:31:40] that all of my team have, so you can't do external kind of consultancy. But the internal model to kind of start to look at, which several of our schools, um, have now run with.
[00:31:50] So the senior leaders are in external ongoing supervision, and then we've worked with them to identify what policies need to be in place, how it's gonna land, who wants to train as a supervisor. They remain in supervision externally as [00:32:05] well so that they are learning and contained as they are delivering, and so that they can bring their supervisees to supervision, 'cause they need supervision on supervision.
[00:32:14] But it's working, it's working really, really well because not everyone can be in external supervision. That would be madness. So putting in a really kind of robust training, which Penny has developed over many years, fits [00:32:30] within our kind of, like, overall quality framework that we've put out there. It's very hard to set up supervision at a midpoint in a school.
[00:32:40] To, so to set supervision up for SENCOs, but the headteacher doesn't understand it, is very difficult to have it sustained because either on purpose or not on purpose, a senior leader who's never had supervision doesn't un- [00:32:55] understand why they suddenly get a much more vocal, empowered person who comes back and starts challenging them.
[00:33:02] Whereas a headteacher who's embraced supervision sees that that kind of the voice that gets more strengthened by being in supervision is very ready to then make a decision around, "I want this in the rest of my school." But I've learnt this through my 26 years of doing varying things where I've [00:33:20] set things up and gone, "Oh, that was an error."
[00:33:22] Like running groups for headteachers who work in the same locality, group supervision. No, absolutely not. I know that people do it, and that's fine, but at Talking Heads we will not do that because they can't be professionally vulnerable. They've got to go to a meeting later. I don't want to bump into my supervisor in Tesco's or another meeting.
[00:33:42] I want to be able to show up with all of my [00:33:45] messiness, and they would want to show up with all of theirs and they were like, "But I've got a meeting later," and/or I might be your line manager No.
[00:33:52] Julie: So that's kind of that safe space thing. So is that in kind of your modeling skills then, do you think you're building that safety?
[00:34:01] You're build- you're building-
[00:34:02] Lisa: Yeah ...
[00:34:03] Julie: that ability to have- Yes ... safe conversations?
[00:34:05] Lisa: Absolutely. The safe conversations, the challenging conversations, [00:34:10] everything is going, starting to go through the very same consistent lens of this is how we do challenge. Because they're experiencing it in their safe spaces.
[00:34:18] You know, this is how we do challenge. This is my increased confidence to call out practice with another person without being... Well, either being silent, which is a problem, or being so vocal about it in a particular way that just gets the other, so the other person doesn't listen. [00:34:35] But actually, there's a way of having challenging conversations that if you've already chewed that over in your own safe space, the way that it's gonna come out is much more kind, caring, clear, and accountable.
[00:34:47] And those are conversations that are really gonna safeguard children and help make very different cultures in schools. I mean, the feedback that we get from schools that are now several years down the line where senior leaders are all [00:35:00] in ongoing supervision, the training's existed, even the gardeners having supervision.
[00:35:04] You know, the quality and confidence around safeguarding, and that's fed back in their Ofsted reports. A few people have shared with me, you know, the impact that that whole school supervision approach has made a real difference to safeguarding. You can't prove that on one level, but the thing that's changed from the last time Ofsted were in, and the thing that everyone will talk about in terms of [00:35:25] feeling much more confident, has been supervision, so.
[00:35:28] And that is what we would hope. That is its purpose.
[00:35:31] Julie: Yeah. And going back to, you know, recognizing that people, um, are human beings, ultimately, um, working with other human beings, so, you know, the- Yeah ... putting in that, that safety, that support and as you say, that ability, you know, to have candid conversations that are still kind, that are still compassionate.[00:35:50]
[00:35:50] And really, when we talk about the difficulties faced in the sector, there are so many challenges and it starts with that as well, doesn't it? Starts with saying, "Let's recognize that it's a challenging time. Let's recognize we're people trying to support people, and let's put in the systems that then support that."
[00:36:08] You know, it makes complete sense. Um, you know, and it completely- Yeah ... and utterly makes sense. Um, [00:36:15] and it- Yeah ... it kind of, if, if we also kind of look at the- Some of the wider issues in the profession. I don't suppose this is really just about retention, is it? Or sustainable leadership? I suppose it is on some level, but equally not necessarily
[00:36:30] Lisa: Kind of just is and should be.
[00:36:32] But sustainability, I mean, yes, and, and it is preventative, but it can... But [00:36:40] in a way, the outcomes of it can't be judged on, as we touched on earlier, whether or not it just reduces people leaving the profession. Uh, like, it does make a difference, but actually we also make a huge difference when we help people leave well.
[00:36:53] Julie: Yes
[00:36:54] Lisa: Instead of making... Because when people are ready to leave, it's often really messy, and has, and can take several years to restabilize when a key figure leaves under very difficult, [00:37:05] painful circumstances. But again, the fact that supervision can contain that pain and distress and allow that person to leave in a very different way if they hadn't had somewhere that was containing those feelings.
[00:37:18] Um, it helps them leave in a way that makes them feel resourced to do another job quite often, because actually there's work-based trauma transferring from place to place. That's a big thing. Yeah And when [00:37:30] people are poorly, thankfully, so many settings that we work closely with now trust us and are like, "Absolutely, we see this person's off sick."
[00:37:38] But if they want their supervision, it can absolutely continue. It's not something that you take away. You increase it or keep it steady, not take it away. But where it's not understood and people take it away, I mean, that, that leaves that person in a very difficult unsupported position, [00:37:55] and... But that's just a misunderstanding around the role of supervision, so
[00:37:59] Julie: I just think it's really interesting what you said then about that work-based trauma kind of going with you and, and carrying that into the next workplace with that, whether that's defensiveness, reactivity, the lens through which you're looking at then, what you're bringing into that organization.
[00:38:15] Um, s- so yeah, so going back to what you said, like, it- if, if [00:38:20] it's potentially about supporting people to leave well so that they can start the next place with-
[00:38:24] Lisa: Yes. Ready. Yeah Excited.
[00:38:27] Julie: Yes.
[00:38:27] Lisa: And not playing things out from the previous setting, 'cause they're ready, and they've landed in the right place to grow.
[00:38:34] You know, that whole gardening metaphor. You know, you put a rose in the middle of a desert, it's, it's not gonna thrive. But you put it in conditions that it needs and... Now I'm exposing my lack of knowledge. The right [00:38:45] manure, sunshine, rain, and, and it's gonna grow, and that, again, it's like a well-used metaphor, but it's fundamentally true.
[00:38:52] Julie: Yeah. So talk to me about this process of creativity then. Let's go back to, to kind of where we started with your drama and how does that play a role? Where does that sit?
[00:39:02] Lisa: I feel like I'm being brave talking about this, Julie, 'cause-
[00:39:04] Julie: Be brave ... it
[00:39:05] Lisa: feels, um-
[00:39:06] Julie: Safe space Safe space. No one's listening.
[00:39:08] Lisa: Safe space.[00:39:10]
[00:39:10] And no one's listening. We don't wanna think that, do we? Um, I'm really loving, 'cause I've always known that I think this, but I'm loving nailing it down in a book chapter that I'm writing with a colleague in Australia at the University of Sydney, um, who in, in Australia they have a training for principals to train to be supervisors.
[00:39:28] And as she and I have been talking about how supervision's developing differently in Australia and [00:39:35] England, in England we are managing, talking inter's managing, a huge take-up and engagement, but doesn't have a university level training for principals to be supervisors. They have a training, but they have- don't have such good take-up.
[00:39:48] So we, I'm loving this learning that I'm doing kind of internationally. Um, but then she and I were talking, and what we've decided to be writing about is actually what is so [00:40:00] important about drama as a language in supervision is the invitation to curiosity has to happen at the beginning of supervision.
[00:40:09] And curiosity is akin to playfulness. And playfulness is akin to how, yes, learning, education. Like we... Well, I know there are still some people that disagree with it, but let's just push that to one [00:40:25] side for a moment, 'cause I know you're smiling at me. Many people would agree that play is a language that is in all of us.
[00:40:33] Adults forget how to play. When they are reminded of how to play, to be creative in their flexibility, their capacities to be thoughtful and thinking, that comes from a place of I will enter a place where I'm curious to not know [00:40:50] something. The minute you enter a space, and education I think is very much doing, being cur- Pressurised to do, especially head teachers, CEOs.
[00:41:00] They are all-knowing. They have to know everything, all the answers. Well, that's, that's not akin to learning anything new. Whereas the invitation to supervision is, like, this is your safe place to come in, to kick off your shoes, loosen your tie, and to [00:41:15] not know. And the minute you do that, you're holding, let's be curious about what's going on here.
[00:41:21] And it's a very vulnerable space, and it is very similar to that improv space where, where the magic happens, and it is absolutely true. And many of my team are... have arts therapies backgrounds, which is an MA profession, and supervisors, and they bring that [00:41:40] possibility. Even if it looks like, and you filmed it, it would look like you were always talking.
[00:41:45] They're not doing any, you know, role play or whatever, but the possibility is always there in the way that we are, so that possibility of metaphors. Metaphors around, in supervision are, they're just rife, and they contain, and they give a language to, and a richness where you would [00:42:05] try to use many, many words to explain something.
[00:42:07] But you come up with a metaphor, and there it is, and it will be the metaphors that people remember. Or, what is the animal here? Or actually, if you were directing a play, and this has been a useful one on many a time. And again, this sounds like some sort of, um, intervention that I put in there, and it's not like that.
[00:42:24] It arises as a language between us, and so it feels very natural. But I'm like, [00:42:30] "If you were directing a play right now," and they're like, "Oh, yeah" "What would it be?" And they're like, "Pantomime." "Yeah, and your job?" "No, I'm being the stage manager." "Which job do you want?" "Director." Or whatever it is, but again, it puts something out there between us to look at.
[00:42:48] It gives a permission to think about it in a playful, creative way. And the problem-solving that comes [00:42:55] out of that, that they could never have accessed if we had just stayed in the verbal cognitive place, is key. Or that picture I see behind you or that mug that you're drinking out of, actually, how does that help us think about what we're talking about?
[00:43:09] Again, it sounds really crass when I unpick it and talk about it, but I, what I'm talking about is that it's a fabric of the language that runs throughout supervision. Please come to [00:43:20] this space, this scene that we set together is a place where it's time boundaried. You show up, and you don't know, and that's okay.
[00:43:29] And I will invite you into... We will find out today what that space needs to look like. Like, who are the players? What's the flavor? What's is, you know, what is, what is it that's happening today for you? And it includes the body. And if we really get into [00:43:45] work-based trauma, distress, the body is the thing that is so absolutely forgotten.
[00:43:51] And for people that know about ideas around trauma lives in the body, it is without words. So finding our leaders, our educators, a, a language which is creativity, creativity. It is without words trauma, so finding ways for that to come out in the [00:44:10] supervision space like what is it? Can we be playful? Can we be curious?
[00:44:13] What, what shape has it got? What color has it got? What piece of music is it? Whatever your supervisee is into, which is why you need to know them. You know, what piece of opera? They can tell you And you go on from there. And in that moment, without fail, transformation happens.
[00:44:29] Julie: I think it just, um, having the words, like we're not necessarily very emotionally [00:44:35] literate, are we?
[00:44:36] So having the words to describe how we feel, they're not always readily available. Particularly, as you say, you know, if people are carrying a lot, there's not just one- Yeah ... feeling in that maelstrom, is there? Of like, you know- Yeah ... like which one you want. Like which one, like where Yeah ... where's my up or...
[00:44:56] So I love that idea of if it were a play and [00:45:00] where are you in it, because that gives, um, I don't know. I don't know. I don't think I've got the language to be able to describe it,
[00:45:06] Lisa: but- If you say to me, "It's like that moment in EastEnders when," or, you know, whatever our shared language is, we're both suddenly back into dialogue.
[00:45:14] Like something has been freed up. I can see it. You can see it. Some people love opera, you know, and I'm like, "Oh, I don't know that bit, but play me it." I'm like, "Wow." But it gives it a safe form, [00:45:25] and it's like poetry- Yeah ... speaks a thousand words, you know? You, you have to find what your supervisee's language is, but we all have it.
[00:45:33] You know, some people- Yeah ... it's baking, so though that's a very kind... Knitting, music, heavy metal, rock bands, it doesn't matter. But for us into, like that's another thing that I guess we're getting to know, why that whole person is allowed in, because it gives up a, a permission [00:45:50] when everything feels stuck to learn how to free it up again.
[00:45:54] To get them back in an, a place of having some words and some knowing. Because when we're stuck, it's like you say, there are so many words and feelings that it just feels overwhelmed, so the only way back to it is to give it something known, some kind of form- Yeah ... some kind of safety And we will get there together.
[00:46:12] Julie: Um, and, and you know, we do something similar. Just we- [00:46:15] it's obviously not the depth that you're working at, but, um, we use, um, pictures of dogs, like in all the- Yeah ... there's various versions. There's a duck one, isn't there, a sheep one. My favorite one is the hedgehog cakes that have all gone wrong. Oh, awesome, yeah.
[00:46:30] And you pick your one to nine and, and actually, you know, I'm, I'm delivering a workshop this afternoon, and I'll use it as an opener because what that allows people to do is very quickly say they're a number nine [00:46:40] without having to articulate how they feel.
[00:46:41] Lisa: Exactly. Exactly that.
[00:46:43] Julie: So I love that, and that makes perfect sense.
[00:46:45] Although when you were talking about the play, my mind went on, "Oh, who would I wanna play me?" Like...
[00:46:52] Lisa: And who would that be, Julie? Who would want-
[00:46:54] Julie: Don't know. I didn't quite get to the end of that thought 'cause I was trying to stay focused. Um, but I'm gonna ponder on that one, um, as to, as to who that would be.
[00:47:03] Um, [00:47:05] so yeah, no, I love that. And, and of course, you know, that bringing the body into it, I think you're so right. I, you know, uh, we're often just heads, aren't we? Jugging our bodies behind and, and forgetting that everything- Yeah ... we think and feel shows up in the our physical being, and everything that's going on physically shows up and, and- Yeah
[00:47:21] influences the way we think and feel. And I'm a big G- Gabor Maté fan, and, um, you know, uh, all of the reading and work around that. So that, that's kind [00:47:30] of really interesting that you bring that into that space as well because that's the whole person- Absolutely ... isn't it? That's-
[00:47:36] Lisa: Yeah ...
[00:47:36] Julie: y- you know, we can bring it back to where you started.
[00:47:39] That actually what supervision is is the best thing for children and young people. It's the best thing if you've got people who can make these calm, objective, you know, responsive decisions, um, that are, you know, the [00:47:55] best for our children. But it is also about the person, isn't it, as well? It's about everything.
[00:47:59] Lisa: Absolutely.
[00:48:00] Julie: I'm a fan.
[00:48:00] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:48:01] Julie: Lisa, I don't need convincing anymore.
[00:48:06] Lisa: Oh, I don't... I mean, it's be- it has become my life's work. I absolutely feel so privileged to end up at this point in my career, um, doing this work because I think about it every day, and I [00:48:20] love it. And going to work every day knowing that we're making a difference every single day, it's pretty rare. So actually, that's amazing.
[00:48:29] Like, I'm, I'm really lucky because what we do every single hour, there are now 48 out- people out there doing work with some head teachers, senior leaders in this country right now as you and I are talking, and that is- Yeah ... an amazing thing. And they're all looking forward to [00:48:45] it with... And they've got their cup of tea, and they've gone home, or they've gone to somewhere to be contained in a space to meet their person who is meeting them, properly meeting them, seeing them, honoring them for all the incredible work that they do every day.
[00:49:02] That's the other thing they don't get, you know, like, so much projected onto them. So I'm getting quite emotional now. It's- But someone who [00:49:10] cares and sees all of who they are and the human cost that they're giving.
[00:49:16] Julie: Needs to. Lovely, Lisa. It's lovely because actually- It is ... as I've listened to you talk and, and kind of got a real clear picture in my head of what it is, I can see how important it is.
[00:49:27] And to have somebody like yourself with all of that passion who sees that it... and driving, [00:49:35] yeah, driving this sort of change really that is so needed, I think, in the education space. Do you think, you know, obviously I've seen the word supervision kind of being talked about now at higher levels as a solution.
[00:49:49] Do you think it, it... We're going somewhere with... See, this is, this is not filmed, like Li- Lisa's expression here. Uh, uh, are [00:50:00] we getting there? Are we making inroads?
[00:50:03] Lisa: Um, I mean, obviously I'm extremely excited to see it being talked about, and I really hope I get the opportunity to be part of that conversation, but I, as my business manager says to me, like, we turn away work, right?
[00:50:19] Because we will only set it up in this very slow, steady, [00:50:25] pre-planful way. The amount of people that come and, some people, that come and go, "Can I just have three sessions a year?" And we go back and we've constructed a very... And I gi- I give it s- I give so much time, we give so much time to our no and why that's not gonna be possible, 'cause it doesn't safeguard them or children.
[00:50:43] And I'm really scared that in the scale up we will get... 'Cause my team are hugely [00:50:50] qualified, right? 600 people. The work at education support, a lot of my team also work with education support. The outcomes are phenomenal, and by next year we'll have seen over 4,000 senior leaders for one-to-one supervision.
[00:51:04] It's set up in the same QA as Talking Edge. It's monthly supervision with a really well-qualified supervisor. Um The outcomes on repeat are in their 90s for, [00:51:15] like, how it's met them and helped them at work and feel better and more professional and challenged them and they felt safe and seen and heard.
[00:51:22] All the outcomes are in the 90s. We're at a point where the white paper, we're going into a new tendering process. A tendering process that the most established scale-up delivery anywhere in the world, which is education support. Second is that Talking Heads can't be round that table to talk about what the tender might look like.[00:51:40]
[00:51:40] Yes, and now you're pulling the same face. I-- my insides curl up because people think that they know what it is and they think they know how to do it and I have thought about this day in, day out since I ever begun eight years ago and really 26 years ago. But you know, and Ed Support the same and the depth and, of work and thinking and care and the capacity to have set it up with a quality that we're passionate about which far [00:52:05] exceeds the standard framework that's out there, um, which is a great starting point, um, but is less than what Ed Support and Talking Heads provide with really well-qualified supervisors.
[00:52:14] So it's back to that thing around with such great outcomes that you can look at it and go, "Well, that was easy." Well, it hasn't been easy. But the stars have aligned around people who've got together to create something that are passionate about we will give the very best quality to the sector. What does [00:52:30] that look like?
[00:52:31] I'm really scared in this next phase that that will shift into people with no qualifications who don't have supervision and it will be a car crash, Julie. Don't hurry. Like the process to mandate this, we need many, many thousands more senior leaders actually to have had good supervision, A, because they need it, but then B, to know how to set it up in their school.
[00:52:53] If we start putting supervision in in [00:52:55] different places with people who are not skilled, people will h- people who have bad supervision once, unless it's mandated actually, 'cause they have to go, they don't wanna return. People do not wanna go back to supervision that did not meet need and I'm just like, we can't.
[00:53:10] So everything that I've done to this point, I've been so lucky to like have a QA control over really and it's been good. We, and the people around, like they're [00:53:20] amazing. But how it moves forward I'm wary of because there's always a temptation to hurry, look for a solution, do it quickly without the right people or the learning in place and I'm like, no, this, this can be done.
[00:53:32] Like I've got, I have so many, like, and we know how to do it. There are people that know how to do it, but they need to be around that table and the people listening and procuring need to be on board with quality and [00:53:45] this is about relationships and time. This has to be, 'cause it is n- everything else is already out there.
[00:53:51] You can't put something in place that's ill-resourced. This is about resource, and the resource is human. So, oh, I could talk about this a lot.
[00:54:00] Julie: We need you at those tables, or at least in earshot of those tables.
[00:54:04] Lisa: You know what? I mean, that is my vision. That, that is my vision. Again, when I shuffle off this mortal coil to a [00:54:10] left behind, this is what good enough looked like for the sector, for children.
[00:54:15] That's what we want. Let's not hurry. Let's keep learning from each other what has been learnt so far, 'cause that's a huge scale. It is the biggest scale-up in this country anywhere in the world for education. So let's, let's harness that learning 'cause it's there.
[00:54:32] Julie: Incredible legacy. It's an incredible legacy, [00:54:35] um, that's being built, that's kind of, you know, being rolled out.
[00:54:39] How can people find you, Lisa, if people wanna pick up this conversation with you? Where do you hide? Yeah. I know you hide on LinkedIn. I'm just being...
[00:54:48] Lisa: I do hide on LinkedIn. I hide on Instagram. I, I really feel, and this hopefully mirrors everything that we're just saying, but, you know, no question is a silly question.
[00:54:58] Like, I, that is the [00:55:00] beginning of the curiosity. So I am phone calls, emails, LinkedIn messages, just ask.
[00:55:06] Julie: That's lovely to lovely know. And obviously if you do Google Talking Heads, make sure you put Supervision on the end of it, otherwise- Yes ... you'll
[00:55:15] Lisa: You'll just get the band. You'll just get the band, and they're amazing.
[00:55:18] Yeah,
[00:55:18] Julie: you will do what I do, will start thinking like, "Oh, what is my favorite Talking Heads song?" And, and I actually, would you like [00:55:25] to know? And e- even though you didn't ask, would you like to know it?
[00:55:27] Lisa: What is it?
[00:55:28] Julie: Would you like to know? Yeah, it is, And She Was.
[00:55:31] Lisa: I'm gonna have to go and listen to that. Yeah.
[00:55:33] Julie: And now, now, now I've just said out loud, now I'm very scared that that's not a Talk- it is a Talking Heads song. Well, yeah. Yes, it is.
[00:55:38] Lisa: No, actually, I'm a David Byrne fan, but I can't recite all the... I'm not a big Talking Heads fan. That wasn't it. It was much more Alan Bennett for me.
[00:55:45] Julie: Well, I hadn't picked up on the Alan Bennett link, but now I love that.
[00:55:49] Um, [00:55:50] so yeah. So be careful what you Google. Go to Talking Heads Supervision. Yeah. Um, but Lisa- Yeah ... um, as you said, is available, um, and to contact. And, and I think you're right, that is the first stage, isn't it? If somebody's listening and thinking, "Is this right for me? Is this right for my school? Is this..."
[00:56:04] You know, it's probably just worth asking the question, isn't it?
[00:56:07] Lisa: There's never been no yet. So the answer will be yes, but I will, you know, we will talk together about what that needs to [00:56:15] have, what it's, what it's like. Yeah
[00:56:17] Julie: Lisa, we ask our guests always the same question at the end. So words of wisdom, if you were to suggest one kind thing that listeners could go off and do for themselves today, what would it be?
[00:56:31] Lisa: I guess something we have not touched on is my other passion, which is actually, which sprung up loads more during COVID, which is to be out in nature, because that, we're literally [00:56:40] attached to nature, and it calms us. So from your walk to whatever your mode of transport is to your front door, look around you and find something that is yellow, and really look at it, 'cause there's loads of buttercups, daisies, whatever out.
[00:56:56] Just find something yellow or you've, or, or green if there really is no yellow. But, like, really look at it for 30 seconds, because there's so many shades of [00:57:05] green even with one leaf. And just in that 30 seconds, it'll do s- even talking about it, it just dampens down your central nervous system.
[00:57:13] Julie: And it's that tiny pause again, isn't it?
[00:57:16] It's that tiny breathing space. Just gorgeous. I'm gonna do that. Although I can see into my garden now, and I can just see purple. I've got loads of, like, bluebells and ...
[00:57:26] Lisa: So I'm gonna have a little look. And I'm yellow. Go look for yellow, you see.
[00:57:29] Julie: Can't see any [00:57:30] yellow. I'm gonna go and look harder.
[00:57:32] Lisa: And I want you to send me a picture of something yellow, Julie.
[00:57:36] Julie: In fact, everybody do that. Everybody send in a picture of the first yellow thing they find. Let's make a display. Let's put it on LinkedIn.
[00:57:43] Lisa: Oh. Yeah. Let's put that on LinkedIn, yeah. The one kind thing is, we could have like a beautiful sea of yellow, Julie. Let's do it.
[00:57:51] Julie: Yeah. If anyone's feeling inspired, send us in your picture of [00:57:55] something yellow.
[00:57:55] I love that. Yeah. Gonna make a collage. Yeah. Lisa, it's been an absolute joy, and your passion, your care, everything that you are bringing to your role, bringing to the sector, that breathing space that you're bringing into education. It's absolutely what is needed. Um, so thank you. Thank you for bringing that.
[00:58:16] Thank you for your professional generosity today in [00:58:20] explaining to us all what it's all about, and yeah, just thank you. Thank you, Lisa.
[00:58:26] Lisa: Thank you.
[00:58:27] You're a superstar. Thank you.