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Stories, experiences and advice about fatherhood.
This is an AI-generated transcript, so consider it an approximation of the audio:
Michael Williams (00:00.302)
Okay, on the podcast today we have Surya and I am very excited because this is a thus far a unique guest that we've had given given your background and the life experience you've grown up with. Surya is Indian, grew up in Nigeria and his first time living in the US was moving into a dorm in Austin at
at a University of Texas there and was it living with a Mexican or Mexican American? Mexican American, that's right. Yes. Yeah. Surya is an engineer, a world traveler. We met for the first time in Turkey after meeting on the internet back in the day when that seemed a little more legit and a little less dicey. And Surya speaks five -ish languages.
And for the purposes of today is also I'm excited because he's an active dad, a very thoughtful, I'm excited to jump into what your experience has been. And as a reminder to everyone, no one here is an expert, we're just curious practitioners. So Surya, I'm excited to talk and is there anything I missed to get before we get started here?
No, I think that was an amazing introduction. I will I would say that I wish I spoke five languages. Mike, I think I am sort of like conversant in maybe like two. And then I like to pretend that I know a couple. So yeah. Your idea of speaking it and my idea of speaking it are two very different things. Fair enough, fair enough. But I enjoy the idea of being multilingual. And it's something that actually is.
influences the way I try and parent my son so we can get into some of that. You are the one who taught me the concept of portinol, which has been an interesting lens into the world, which is, you know, speaking a little bit of Portuguese, speaking a little bit of Spanish and the mishmash that that can turn into if you've lived in places where those languages are and it all just kind of jumbles together.
Michael Williams (02:17.518)
That's right. That's right. It's a very useful, useful thing to speak because then you can, you could travel and cover both Latin American, Spanish speaking countries and Portuguese speaking countries. Great. Well, let's begin by looking backward and at the beginning or beginnings of your life. You grew up in Nigeria. You'll have to correct me if you were born in India or you're born in Nigeria, you can, you can fill, fill in on that. But when you,
When you look back on your childhood, what jumps out at you about the experience and how you were fathered and how you've noticed that impact in you today? Yeah, that's a great question, Mike. So yes, I was born in India in Bangalore. And then at the tender age of five, my parents decided to pick up and move to the depths of West Africa, having never left.
India ever, which is a decision that I still ask them about all the time because it's like this is in the pre -internet era in the 80s. And they picked their family up and moved to a completely different part of the world that they knew nothing about. And the reason they did it was because my dad was looking for economic opportunity in a way that wasn't available to him at the time in India. And
And so that really kind of, I think is where my idea and relationship with my dad sort of began because the, you know, the role that he played compared with my mom was, was, was different. He was always the breadwinner of the family. Right. And that in many ways, especially in the early years of my childhood, like that was his biggest contribution is this to be the person that brought home the income. Of course, I didn't understand or appreciate it at the time. My mom, on the other hand was a.
stay at home mom, in the early years especially, eventually she did end up taking up a job at the school that I went to. So she had actually played a more kind of front seat role as a parent in my early formative years versus my dad was often away working, right? And that's like the memory I have of him in a lot of ways in the early years was him just either being away at the office, working long hours or traveling a lot for work, right?
Michael Williams (04:47.662)
And now I know as a working dad that he was doing what he needed to do to be able to keep the finances afloat and essentially be the breadwinner, right? But I also feel like there were times, especially as I started to grow, where I missed him being around, right? And in fact, my father's work schedule in those days,
used to be that not only did he work Monday through Friday, he would often have to work on the weekends where, you know, half day on Saturday in many parts of the world, that's still a common thing, right? And so really then we had a day and a half when he was at home and I used to cherish those moments. Those were the moments when, you know, we did stuff as a family and, you know, I actually got to interact with him and it wasn't enough, I think, in retrospect, but I still really, really have fond memories of him. And,
The other thing that comes to mind as being really like impactful is like my dad was the person that for instance nurtured the love of sport for sport and music. He was an athlete his entire life and he was the one who kind of paid the way for me to become an athlete. Sport is something that I enjoyed many forms and different types of sport and just keeping fit. Music as well, he's a guitarist and a singer and...
he cultivated in me this sort of creative spirit to kind of explore the musical side of me at an early age. And I have very fond memories of jamming with him on our piano at home with him on the guitar. And so those are like a few things that come to mind when I think about my dad, and in particular how I want interacting with my son too. So when I think about like as a father,
you know, what do I want to the relationship to have with my kid? I think one, I think the lesson that I've learned from watching my dad is I know I want to have very clear boundaries about my work and personal life. I don't want to necessarily have to put work always first, which is what my dad had to do. And so I have tried my best over the years to try and contain that so that I can make sure that like I'm able to make time for my family and my son, right? Who is seven.
Michael Williams (07:06.286)
So that's one thing that I think it really means a lot to me. But then also, you know, I think trying to really be able to create an environment where the time we do spend together, I'm mindful, I'm physically present, and we're doing things that both of us enjoy, right? Whether that be playing soccer or my son's into basketball these days, he's taking piano lessons. And so...
you know, creating an environment where, you know, he's just getting to grow and learn and I'm there to witness it and not missing out on the important moments. I think is, you know, some of the things that come to mind when I look back at my childhood. The other thing that I'd say that's kind of unique about my experience growing up in West Africa, that my dad played a role in this is, you know, he always led by example when it came to embracing a very multicultural mindset.
Right. And by that, I mean, he encouraged me to go out and embrace the Nigerian in me, right, to go out and integrate into the local culture from the language, the music, the food. And he did it himself. Right. And he led by example in doing so, which wasn't always the case with a lot of foreign expats and even Indian immigrants that moved to West Africa. In fact, I have a lot of friends that
grew up in a bubble where their parents would shield them and protect them from the world around them because it was like scary and different, right? Versus my dad was always somebody that would blend those boundaries and he would travel across the country and he would come home when I was a kid and share really interesting anecdotes and stories about his travels. It always made me curious about learning more about the culture and the people.
I'm proud to call myself an Indo -Nigerian and Indo -African for that reason, because I have a very Nigerian side of my personality. That doesn't always come out, but I think my dad played a very, very instrumental role in cultivating that mindset in me as an audience. How do you identify culturally or whatever? You mentioned Indo -Nigerian. I grew up there. You have the Indian heritage, grew up in West Africa. You've now spent...
Michael Williams (09:23.598)
20 years in the US or whatever it's been, what does that end up meaning to you? It's a question I get often and it's a complicated question to answer because I think that it's an unconventional experience in some ways that I've had. I think that the thing that I now have realized is that I like to think of myself as a global citizen, right?
You know, I have cultural ties to India, which is where my ancestors came from. And I have, you know, still have family that lived there and my parents are very Indian culturally and otherwise. I also have very strong ties to Nigeria and that place. But I also, like to your point, have now, I've lived in the United States, I spent time living in Turkey and Brazil, studied abroad in Brazil. And so, you know, at some point I have had to accept that like the only way to describe my experience is to say that it's,
you know, multicultural and global mindset with ties to specific cultures. And I think when I had that shift in my mindset, I was then able to like, you know, accept and embrace these cultures that had an opportunity to be exposed to and absorb some of the beautiful things in those cultures, right? And I think that's something that I want my son to experience as well, right? So we can talk about that some more, but...
That's definitely a thing that I feel very strongly about, where I don't want him to singularly experience just one culture and environment, because I do believe that the world is a better place when people are exposed to multiple cultures, especially in their formidable years. I think that it creates, for future generations, we need that more than ever now.
I'm interested in where your father's perspective came from. The thing you said that really stuck out was to really embrace and kind of immerse in the West African culture. That is not what I expected you to say and it's not, you know, so many people that we know who live that expat lifestyle, that's not just...
Michael Williams (11:40.686)
choosing to do that, you actually have to go against a lot of the norms that are in place, probably with most of your peers. So where do you think that came from, that mindset in your father? That's a good question. I can't necessarily speak for him, but I like to believe that inherently deep down, it is two things. One is my father's just...
personality is someone who is friendly. He loves to connect with people who are like him and different. Over the years, just as a side note, my dad essentially ran a business for many years where he had to import certain types of fish from Scandinavia and Iceland and that part of the world. wow. That was then an imported distributor in the West African markets. For instance, dried stockfish is a
thing that comes from that part of the world that is a huge market for it in Nigeria. Is it like a delicacy for them almost? And so my dad would travel to Iceland for, you know, there was about a decade or more where he would go like four or five times a year and spend a lot of time in that part of the world. And, and, you know, he developed strong friendships with people that we had an entire contingent of Icelanders at my wedding, for instance, right. And that just says a lot about how my dad is. And so,
It's part of his personality. But I think the other side of this is also something to be said for the Nigerian culture and the spirit, which is very, very welcoming. Nigerian people are warm. There's a very false and negative stereotype about what it means to be Nigerian. And I think that that's part of because of what you see portrayed in the news and because of things like Boko Haram and terrorism of the earth.
But deep down, I think people are warm, wonderful people. They're always giving very strong spirited in the way that they approach everything in life. And, you know, they feel passionately about their culture, their music, their food. And so if you are somebody that has any inkling or interest in these diverse experiences, which I know my dad does, then it's a perfect match. That's cool. One other question in this area.
Michael Williams (14:03.054)
I'm fascinated when it comes to your experience interacting with the Nigerian part of your community. I would love to hear what do you think is the one, two or three kind of parenting techniques as you were growing up? What was it like either your Nigerian friends and how their, you know, what was it like for them being parented by Nigerian parents or if you actually interacted with them?
What was your own experience? I mean, I think it's a great question. I think that the Nigerian parenting style is probably different than the parenting that I received, right? Probably that all of us have received. Right? And I think that's one of the things that's interesting and topical here is in general, parenting styles differ by culture, right? There are elements that you might find are common threads across different cultures, but there's also
things that are very unique to certain cultures. I think, you know, what I've observed about the Nigerian parenting style in some ways, it, you know, there's a stereotype of, you know, and it's not just Nigerian, by the way, I think there's an element, which is actually common to the Indian parenting style in some places is they can be punitive. It can be, you know, harsh and strict, where if you're, if you as a kid don't follow a rule or you don't obey, you will be met with some form of punishment, right? And it's,
Some people joke about it, but it does happen and you see that, that you can see people, parents yelling at their kids, in some cases actually raising their hand. It's not uncommon to see that, right? And I think like that instills a level of fear sometimes in children growing up, but also out of that comes this type of discipline that I think you don't see that kind of develop in the Western like parent model in my view, it's just different.
Thankfully, I never had to go through that. But I think that there are different values with which I was raised by my parents and my dad that I try and carry over to how it influences my parenting, I guess, of my son. With your dad being gone a lot, when he was around, how did he participate as a father? I remember seeing a friend who works a lot and when he would...
Michael Williams (16:29.326)
be around his kids, he was like another kid that his wife, their mom had to manage. He was kind of messing around him. He kind of added to her workload by virtue. And I interpreted some of the mindset of I'm working a lot and when I get to spend time with the kids, I want to mess around with them and have what he considered like have fun. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm curious what you experienced in your case with when he came around, was he an active parent? Did he defer to your mom? How did he participate during the time that he was available? Yeah, it's a great question. I think in general, my father's style of parenting is slightly more hands -off, I think. And...
To understand that, it's important to say that my mom's parenting style is very hands -on. And so she often would be in the front seat, the driver's seat, for a lot of the day -to -day parenting, or even when it came to planning activities and so on. My dad was more casual about stuff like that. He wouldn't necessarily take a strong position on things like academics necessarily, even though he excelled academically in his.
childhood, he never felt strongly that like I, you know, I had to be a certain standard when he was available. It was about spending quality time and really creating memories. Right. And I think that, you know, whether that be doing something together at home, going out to the beach, whatever it was. And I also think that because of how hard he worked, the time that he had off, and I know I experienced this a lot is also his time off. It's his time to just sometimes do nothing.
Right. And I struggle with that as a parent because when I've had a rough week, I'm not always in the mood to do something active or take on like a, an intense, like, you know, project or activity with my son, because it's sometimes there's a cognitive load associated with it. And the thing you want is to be left alone. And I know that, and I know that my dad wanted some of that downtime and I can, and now I completely appreciate it. Right. Because there's times when you just need, need time to yourself to recoup and.
Michael Williams (18:51.918)
And again, this is where I think that it's important to set boundaries so you're not always feeling that sense of like burnout, right? So I definitely observed some of that. But when he wasn't like physically mentally exhausted, you know, he was, we would we would do fun things. So he'd love to go out, you know, to eat on the weekends, right? So we would go out to nice restaurants and engage with the community to write like there was always a very, I grew up in an environment where
you know, there's a lot of our neighbors, there was a lot of social activity and parties and things going on, which, which I, you know, is part of being in a community. And I think that sense of community to me is also very important in creating that environment for my family and my son today, because I grew up in a very like community centric kind of environment. And so that was one way in which we engaged and spend time together. I think one other thing I'll say maybe if you don't mind on that is,
My dad also had a very generous personality. It was in his DNA to always give his time, money to others and then the family too, right? We grew up in an average middle class household. We did comfortably, but that didn't matter because my dad always wanted to make sure that we had enough to enjoy a good life. And so one of the ways that he did that was,
creating opportunities for us to travel, right? And so both my parents were instrumental in this, but every summer we would travel from West Africa to India to go visit my extended family, my grandparents. And we would always stop along the way, for instance in Europe or other places midway. And my parents went out of their way to create those opportunities where we would spend maybe, you know,
three or four days in Paris or London or one of those cities on the way to India because you never know direct flights, you have to fly through Europe in a lot of cases. And so they took advantage of that. And I got to see a lot of the world at a very young age. And again, my interest in travel and exposure to kind of other cultures came about that way. And I think I have to give credit to my dad because there's a lot of people in his shoes who wouldn't spend that kind of money and say like, save that money. And that was not his mindset. His mindset was like,
Michael Williams (21:12.942)
spend and, you know, create memories. And I think that's something that I really want to do with my children, my son and my, you know, family. How did it evolve once you became a dad? And by that, I mean, how did your view of his style of your experience growing up and also his participation with you as now as a grandfather? How did that transition impact?
the relationship and your reflections. So I'll maybe touch upon the grandparent side of things first, because in many ways, one of the things that I have tried to do since I've become a dad and my father has interacted with my son Neil, which by the way, it's not his first grandchild. My sister who's older to me has two older kids. But I think,
creating opportunities where there is an up, you know, time when they can spend time together basically and forge a strong bond and relationship between the grandparents and their grandson is something that I feel strongly about. And it's beautiful to see, even though there's like a physical separation because my parents still live in West Africa. And so, you know, we're lucky we might see them.
Neil might see his grandparents once a year, but you know, it's for an extended period of time when they come to visit often or we meet somewhere and they have a very, very strong bond. They also, we also use technology to our advantage. So they'll do a FaceTime chat on the weekends and it's cute because Neil will take his iPad and shut himself in his room and just be talking to the grandparents for like an hour plus now. And that's his, he looks forward to that, right? And so it's those little things that I think.
you know, they look forward to it. And I think that I've noticed that ever since my dad retired a few years ago, there's an even stronger interest in embracing the grandfather and him and, you know, in a way where sometimes I feel like, you know, as a dad of a young kid, he maybe had less time to spend parenting and enjoying those moments. And now he can enjoy it. And so I do my best to try and create that environment.
Michael Williams (23:41.838)
I think the other thing that maybe, you know, in terms of how it's influenced my parenting, in a lot of ways it comes naturally where I don't think too much about it. It's just, you know, I think inherently I have a certain parenting style that came about when I became a parent. And, you know, I didn't prepare myself for this moment. It just something that was very exponential. Like I lived and I was like, okay, what kind of a parent am I going to be in it? You know, and there were things that made sense. There were things that not. The other thing that I will say is that,
inherently parenting and becoming a dad was not a straightforward thing for me. Like my wife, for instance, she just is a parent. She has this natural poise and ease with which she's able to be a parent to our son that I'm often in awe of. And I, on the other hand, I feel like I've had to work hard in many ways to become a parent that I feel like...
I can consider and respect because for instance, I realized that I had developed a temper after becoming a dad in a way that I never did have. And it's, you know, I became impatient and I have had to work hard to manage those traits and keep them in check so that it doesn't dominate the way that, you know, my family experience.
or interact with me on a day -to -day basis. So those are the small things that I've had to do. And I think in many ways, I look to the experience of what my dad was like and where there are positives I've tried to draw on that. But there are also things that I know that my dad and my mom didn't really do that I feel strongly about. So for instance, my dad himself wasn't much of a reader. He still isn't. My mom more so,
It was the one who encouraged reading and eventually I got into, you know, like loving books. But as a father, I now feel very strongly about being more of a role model by reading with Neil, right? And reading to him and now he's actually seven and he can read on his own. And so, you know, we do, we're reading time together as a family after dinner every evening for half an hour to an hour or whatever.
Michael Williams (26:08.238)
And I cherish that. It's really important that we create that kind of an environment. I say that's one area. And I think the other area is, you know, my dad and my mom were never savvy with money when it came to like personal finances and investments and things like that. And I've had to learn after becoming an adult and a working professional kind of on my own how to be savvy about.
personal finance. And I think that one of the things I want to do differently for my son is actually at an early age to get him to understand how do we smart with his money in a way that I never had anyone to show me. I mean, obviously not at the age of seven, but as he matures. What was it like implementing the after dinner reading time? How did, how did that come about? And more importantly, what do you do when you're in the middle of an epic paragraph?
And he asks you a question. Yes. So I think the first thing is my take on it is start as early as possible. So we started reading to him when he was a little baby, right? We had books. He obviously couldn't understand anything, but it's through osmosis. You just, you, you develop that. It's just, it becomes the norm and, and.
you know, your routine where they don't question it because they don't know any other way. It's always that. So we've tried to be consistent about bedtime reading every day from the time he was born. And so if you were able to do that, I think that when they, you know, when they come to an age where they're actually, you can read to them and they're able to understand and follow, I'd say nine out of 10 times they're actually interested in what you have, you know, picked an interesting book that they can relate to.
And so that's one simple thing you can do is to just have that be part of the daily routine. And then, you know, at some point, he started to show interest in reading on his own. And now he will tell you, he's like, I don't like to get read to, I want to read on my own. And I was like, all right, that's cool. Like, I will embrace that. And so like, he's reading Harry Potter for the first time. And it's cool because my wife and I love Harry Potter. I'm also not 100 % sure he's getting everything at the age of seven when he reads the book.
Michael Williams (28:32.974)
And that's okay. I was like, I'm here to answer any questions you have. And, and, you know, he was like, how do you pronounce Dumbledore? You know, like things like that. And so, but it's cool. Like I, I, I, you know, I'm here to support him. I think to your other question, look like they're going to have, you're going to have interruptions in every aspect of your life. Right. And sometimes it's annoying as hell and you have to just put them in their place. But, but sometimes you, you,
you know, you try and be a good listener. And that's the other thing that I've learned is that as a parent too often we're the ones to sort of like dispense advice and tell them this is how it should be. But if we took a little bit more time to actually listen to what's going on in their little brains, it's actually a much more healthy way to connect with, with, you know, their development and where they are with that. Right. So one of the things I'm picking up is you seem to be.
quite reflective on your parenting strategy. How do you do that? Like tangibly, what is your strategy or technique to do that meta -analysis, to evaluate yourself and say, and I started realizing this when you started talking about your temper and I can really relate with that. What is your process for reflection? And then how do you go through implementing those changes to how you show up as a dad? That's a good question. I think there's,
a certain amount of this that comes about from the relationship that I had with my wife, right? Where at some regular interval, it'll either be because of an incident that happened where we have to reflect on how we responded to a certain situation or something that he said that surprised us and we like, should we have said something or not? But, you know, there's moments in time when we might sit down,
and just chat and reflect on where we are in the journey and what we feel like is working or not working or if we feel like, I feel like, hey, look, can we talk about this? Because I think we need to approach this differently. This doesn't seem right. It's just something that bubbles up within me. But I think having a partner that you can kind of talk through, because it's something about vocalizing your thoughts that help crystallize these things in your head, otherwise it's just sitting in your head. Right?
Michael Williams (30:59.342)
And I think that I found to be very healthy and effective way of parenting is to share this with somebody. And so I'm grateful for being able to love my wife. And then as far as like, what my kind of approach is to parenting and my strategy, I think one thing that's important, maybe I'll pick three of them, but one of them is,
mindful parenting, right? And it's kind of simple. It's really quality over quantity, right? It's when I'm spending time with my son, I want to be fully present and engaged, regardless of what we're doing, right? And I struggle with it, by the way, it's not an easy thing, because there are times when I'm completely there. There are times where I'm a mile away, you know, miles away. And that might mean, for instance, not staring at your phone or screen when you're around your kid.
Like we all in this modern day, I'm sure struggle with that. It's easy. It's too easy. In fact, to pick up your phone and check your email, get on Instagram and all of that. And I have to constantly check myself. And the reason I've had to be more thoughtful about my foot printing is because my son will tell me that he's like, why are you on your phone all the time? He's like, you're not hanging out with me. And then I'm like, crap, he's right. And I got to put it away. Right. And so, you know, I try and when I can remember and during the evening times like,
you know, put my phone away so that I'm present. The other one is I think just like I call it like creative play and curiosity, which is I think we all have a creative spirit inside us. And when you can tap into that, I think it just brings more joy and meaning to life, right? And so this can take on whatever shape or form. And I find the children in particular are creative in a way where they're not always they're not.
like shackled by certain preconceived notions and what they can or cannot do the way that adults are. And I think that's a beautiful thing to witness, right? And so one of my goals is to continuously encourage Neil to explore his creative spirit. And that could be through drawing, to music, or any other medium that he's into at a particular point in time. And then as a parent, also try and show up and do this with him, right? So like more recently he's been into
Michael Williams (33:17.678)
and he's been into sketching anime characters. And he wants me to partake in that with him. As a kid, I was never, I was good at a lot of things, but drawing was not one of my strengths. That didn't matter, I still showed up and I still tried to draw and my drawing has actually gotten better, by the way. I realize that. But it was more about the act of just doing it with him.
where it meant a lot to him. And then through that, he felt more comfortable exploring that side of him, right? And so, you know, how do I create opportunities where we can do that more? How do I create spaces for us to be able to explore the creative side? And then the third thing that probably is really important to me and my wife is what I would say is values -based parenting, right? I think I was raised in a culture where there are certain values that are important.
And I think that I feel strongly that my son is raised with certain values, right? And simple things like respecting your elders, that's a very Indian cultural thing to do. And I feel that strongly, honesty, right? Like the ability to persevere when you're faced with challenges. Like small little things like that is things that I think if one is more thoughtful about, it makes it so that your child benefits.
So do you and your wife have a list of values? Not in that way. I don't think we've ever documented it or so on, but if we had to talk about it, I think we'd be aligned on the probably the values that we care about, right? Like, so I think it's more organic in some ways and implicit, but yet like it comes up in different.
ways that like requires us to make sure that we're either aligned or if we're not, we have a conversation about it. It's not like tattooed on any of your... Maybe one day. On each vertebrae. That's what I should do. You have a great example that I want to explore, which is your childhood and your son's childhood are extremely different.
Michael Williams (35:38.286)
obviously it's in different continents. There's the differences in the school systems and all of that. Just they're completely different experiences or they're at least in completely different contexts. How do you reconcile your childhood, the challenges you had with your sons, which is way more advantageous than yours? Yeah.
That's accurate. I think in many ways, like having left India to go and then live in West Africa in a different environment. I already have had the experience of what it's like to leave one world and then go and live in another that's different. Now, in my son's case, he was born in the US. He is ostensibly American, right? Because he's raised here. I believe that we are all a product of our circumstance and environment. I know I am.
And so similarly, I think my son is, you know, you can already tell like very influenced and shaped by the community environment that we live in. And so I think that my perspective, I have accepted that his experience in many ways will be different to mine. I'm grateful for the fact that he has opportunities that in some ways I didn't. And I try and remind him about that, but
You know, I think he's also, he's also too young to understand that he's only seven, right? Because sometimes I just feel he takes it for granted. I try to remind him of the fact that like, I was like the array of toys you have, the opportunities you have to play sport, like the types of food. I was like, I didn't have all of these things, but I don't think he gets that because this is all he knows. Right. And so I, that's fair. hopefully as he ages, some of that maturity will come in and he'll be more appreciative of this.
but one can only try. But then the other thing you touched upon, which I think is worth speaking to is the stereotype of what childhood experiences are in certain cultures. Like in my case, living in an Indian household in Africa, there's a stereotype that comes from that that's different than, say, the
Michael Williams (38:04.782)
world that he's living in, right, academically, for instance, right, where in the Asian culture, sometimes there's a lot of emphasis put on academic pursuits and following certain career paths like science or engineering or become a doctor or a lawyer, right. And I had some of that as a kid in the sense that like, you know, I think my mother always wanted to make sure that I was met a certain standard academically.
However, my parents were also cool enough that they didn't, I don't want to say cool, but like they were flexible enough to where they let me kind of navigate my path. As a kid, that's cool. As a kid, that's cool, right? That's right. But I think that it's still very real today, right? I think that this idea that like, like if you look even in the US today, children that go to schools that are predominantly in like, you know, Indian or Asian communities,
they're subject to a higher level of expectation and pressure. And I think that my personal view on that is that I don't think anybody should be forced to pursue a field of study or that is not interesting to them or they don't identify with, or worst of all, that you should have to do something because your parents or society says you should do it. No, that's not what the word means.
But ultimately, if you try and examine some of these stereotypes, a lot of that comes from this traditional mindset of if you go and pursue these types of career paths, you know, you become a doctor or lawyer, an engineer, they pay well, and they're secure professions, and you can therefore have money and provide well for your family. It's a simple conventional mindset in some ways. But I think that a lot of times people conflate money for freedom, because
I think that freedom to me is like the ability to be able to do what you want when you want it and then, you know, spend your time doing the things that maybe are interesting to you, which there are a lot of us inherently ultimately want, I think, right? But if you can fleet money for freedom, then you're often, I think, just in the cycle of, you know, constantly working to make more money. And that keeps you just running for more in a way that causes stress.
Michael Williams (40:25.87)
and probably also makes it so that money is working against you and not for you. Like that's been my experience. And so if I have to think about, you know, how do I want that to influence my parenting style and approach? Probably two things that matter to me. I think one is I mentioned this earlier on, but I feel strongly that as my son grows, I want for him to understand.
the importance of personal finance, regardless of what he does in life. Right? Because at the end of the day, look, we can love it or hate it, but money is what makes the world go around. And so the sooner you understand how it works, I think the sooner you can make it work for you than against you. Right? Like it's a simple truth in my view, right? Rather than being ignorant about it. And then I think the second thing is I would encourage him to just follow his curiosity. Right? Like I think that
If he did that and use that as an instrument to learn and grow, he'll be a more interesting person. He'll probably find more joy and meaning out of life. And sure, along the way, there's going to be road bumps and we all know that life is seasonal and he'll have to learn that. And it's probably my responsibility as a father to teach him that at the end of the day, it's going to be fraught with failure and constant work and uncertainty and all of these things.
And so as much as I can do, you know, try and make sure he learns some of these lessons while he's at home, then I'm hopefully preparing him for what he's going to face in life. But that's my way of thinking about it. Has your son expressed any interest in, I think you described yourself at the end of the day as a global citizen, given your broad array of experiences, you described your son as American.
make a quintessentially American experience. Has he started to ask about where you know, kind of where you come from and is his his family history and lineage and kind of ancestry? Has that been an area that you've you've engaged with him? Yeah, yeah, it's a great question, Luke. And I'd say that he he's definitely at an age where he's more cognizant about the fact that his parents have a multicultural background. You know, and
Michael Williams (42:49.678)
sometimes we'll just come up in the context of like choices about food that we make at home or when we go out and things like that, right? But then also, he'll ask me questions about, you know, my life growing up in Nigeria and what that was like and whether I got to do X, Y or Z or sometimes I'll be like, that's cool. Cause I never had to do that. I never had that opportunity or I never got that experience as a kid. And then you'll want to like double click on that. Right. And so it comes up a good amount. And the same for my wife. My wife was
born and raised in India and then she came to the US for high school and has stayed here ever since. And so he often has these conversations with both of us about our backgrounds. We've also tried to, you know, you know, have him experience things outside of just the existing world that he lives in. So we've taken him to travel, because it's at an early age. So I don't think you'll remember much of this. But for instance, this summer where we have a trip,
plan to Europe and we're going to Barcelona, we're going to Spain for two weeks. And he's super excited about it. And on his own, because of we're traveling to Spain, he was like, I'd like to get back to learning Spanish. As a kid, he had actually had a nanny that watched him for two years, was from Mexico City. So he used to actually speak fluent Spanish as a kid. But unfortunately, he hasn't kept up with it, because we don't speak Spanish at home to him. And so therefore, he, you know,
He's forgotten much of it. But anyway, so he's now doing like this Spanish thing on Duolingo and it's cute. He does it every day and he tracks his points and he's on some streak and you know, like he's, you can tell that there's this interest, right? And I, you know, not every seven year old is going to be that way. And so I love it and I'm trying to embrace that side of it as much as possible. Your son's learned and forgotten more than I've ever known. Sounds like.
children, I'll tell you, they have their minds on like sponges. It's kind of amazing what they're capable of.
Michael Williams (44:56.43)
How do you and your partner think about giving him a home base in both the literal and the figurative sense? Your background, your partner's background involving multiple continents, multiple cultures. He's growing up in a different situation from how you two grew up and you're bringing all this different stuff.
that is important to you that you combine with your partner into a family unit. And I'm curious how you, almost how you combine all that to give him a sense of home and family. Yeah, yeah. I think for some of that, it kind of happens more organically, right? I don't think we try too hard to necessarily do...
what you just described. And I think, so, you know, it feels more natural for us. So it's just, I'll use food as an example, right? We, both my wife and I are, you know, culturally, we grew up in Indian homes. And so we grew up eating Indian food. In fact, we both grew up eating Indian food at home every day. We would eat other foods as well. My parents would, you know, sometimes experiment with other cuisine, like, you know, Chinese cuisine or Italian food.
but not as much as Tanya and I have a propensity to do so. So while we both love eating and cooking Indian food, we also very much enjoy cooking Italian food and Asian food and Thai food and different types of cuisine. And so we try to do as much of that at home, not necessarily because we want Neil to be exposed to it, because we just love doing it for ourselves. And so inadvertently, he gets exposed to food from around.
And then any given week, right, we've probably going through at least three to four different world cuisines, right? And it's just how we live. And so I think that's an example of where like, we're not necessarily trying to be deliberate about something. It's just part of how, you know, we live day to day.
Michael Williams (47:11.886)
And he gets exposed to it in a way where maybe, you know, his age growing up in India may not necessarily be exposed to that kind of diversity or perspective. Right. So that's one way in which I think it comes about, which is more natural. I think the other aspect of like how we create the home, sense of home and environment is we do try and embrace from a cultural perspective, certain
types of, like for instance, holidays that we feel strongly about. So, you know, we, in the Indian tradition, you could be celebrating a different festival every weekend of the year. It's kind of crazy. We don't do that, right? But there are certain ones that we feel strongly about. One of them is called Diwali, which is the festival of lights, right? It's like the Indian Christmas. And so on for Diwali, like we will make sure to create an atmosphere at home where it's very reminiscent of being at home for us.
and he has now gotten into that spirit and looks forward to it. But equally, we will also celebrate Christmas. In my case, my mother grew up in a Catholic neighborhood in India and was very, you know, she loves Christmas and all the things that come with it from Christmas tree to carols and everything. And so I grew up with that spirit. And so at our home, we celebrate Christmas in a big way. And so like that, there are certain things that are part of our upbringings that we just
naturally will create, you know, for the household that we have now. And I think Neil, as a result, is exposed to that. So, yeah. Has it created any mental challenges for you given some, I guess, thinking about the challenges your son doesn't have to face? Do you ever just like, it's like, do you ever feel compelled to make it harder for him?
Or like, do you have to do any mental gymnastics? Because I could see it being becoming almost resentful toward, you know, your own child that, you know, if it's like today he's not being very appreciative of whatever. I'm just curious how you inside your head, whether you've had to overcome any challenges or negativity. Very much a lot.
Michael Williams (49:37.774)
I think two examples come to mind of that, right? I was talking about Christmas, so I'll stick with that. As a kid, when we had a celebration of Christmas, I would get maybe one gift from my parents. That was how we did it. And so they might take me to the store and we'd get a gift. I'd get to pick it out or they might just pick it for me. And that was like the world to me.
when I got that one gift, it meant everything to me to have that and savor and enjoy it. Neil will get, you know, two dozen gifts from, you know, half a dozen family members to the point where he doesn't even know what he's gotten. And he might look at half of them once and then they're gone, right? In like the background. And that like irks me. It gets me so frustrated because...
I tell Tanya this all the time. I was like, he just doesn't understand how to savor it, right? It's like less is more sometimes in these kinds of situations. I don't know that this is necessarily cultural, but this is just something that compared to like my childhood experience he has. And so I often talk about it and I was like, you know, like you have to sometimes take away some of these things for him to appreciate it. But it's also like, how do you do that in a way that like doesn't come across as like negative or like, right. And so that he cannot value these things.
I don't have an answer. I haven't figured it out. It's just something I think about a lot. And then, you know, another example is food. And again, some of this is just, I think every kid is like this, right? But like he will just not eat certain things you give him and on certain days. So one time I did this thing is, I don't know if it was that I think you are, but I mean, because of the situation in, in, you know, Palestine and Gaza, like there was a video that I, you know, that they had emerged on my social media.
of literally these children that were walking around with bowls in their hand were trying to get food. And then one of the kids, you know, they were like, it was like a food donations space, didn't get a chance to get any food, whereas the other kids did. And, and so it was like the most heartbreaking thing you had seen. And so then he had to like, you know, he was almost walking home empty handed and then another kid came up to him and was like, realized that his bowl was empty and like gave him some of his food. Right. And,
Michael Williams (51:52.27)
And on that day, he refused to eat some food that we had given him and he was just not going to eat it. And I showed him that video and I was like, look, this is what some children your age are living in the world. And he thought about it for a minute, but then he just moved on. And I realized that he's just not mature enough yet to understand. And that's okay. Time will come when he is hopefully. So that's another example of where like...
You know, I was just like, it drove me mad, but what can you do? I want to go back to the relationship with the grandparents a little bit. And you mentioned them, your parents are, I think you said still in West Africa. Are your partner's parents also in India still? My wife's mother is still alive. She's in India, yes.
What is it like having grandparents so far away? And obviously, you come from an international experience, Tanya's coming from... You have a little bit of this, you've been living far away for a long time. But then you have a child and you know, my understanding and all of a sudden that support is so far away.
And especially in coming from a culture where at least compared to my like western, you know, the western culture of where multi -generation families are kind of a bigger, you know, a more prevalent thing. And you are obviously very, very far away. And I'm just curious how that having that support be so far away and what that experience has been like.
There's two elements to that, right? One is just the relationship that I have with my parents today and then Neil has with my parents today and they have with him and so on. So much of that ends up being a virtual connection, right? Because we are largely on different continents for majority of the year. And thankfully we have technology today.
Michael Williams (54:13.038)
to keep in touch in a way where, you know, I know when my parents were living away from their parents in West Africa, you know, as a kid, you know, maybe once a week they could talk on the phone and that was it. But now we at least have FaceTime and iPads and all of these things, right? So that allows us to kind of keep the connection alive, but then there's the time difference. And that also poses a challenge because there are weeks when we can't connect because, you know, the time difference and...
You know, my mom would be like, I missed talking to Neil and I'm like, I'm sorry, just not going to happen this week. And so then we got to, you know, wait the next weekend or whatever. So, so that's, that's logistically tough, you know, to keep the bond alive. I think that in terms of like support, you know, it's not something that I can rely on unless they are actually around, but when they come to visit, then the equation changes for us because, you know, they will, they will stay with us and.
You know, that's, this is where it's also different in Indian culture. So, you know, I like my, my, my sister's marriage and American household. And I know her experience with her in laws is very different, right? When they come to visit in my case, you know, my mom would basically take over the kitchen for like six weeks, right? And so Tanya and I don't have to worry about cooking, which is glorious. And every day we're getting like, you know, amazing meals three times a day. So that was one thing that's not, we don't worry about. They can also help with like.
things like pick up and drop offs and so on. So there's just like, there's a lot of like good that comes from it. We often like use that opportunity to do a family holiday together. And like last year, we took my parents to Hawaii and we took, you know, and that was like a very, very amazing trip that we all went on. And so, you know, we try and use those moments to create as many memories as possible, knowing that like it's a limited amount of time that we have together, right? So that's, that's probably like,
the approach and the mentality that we have. And then in terms of sort of like support, the one good thing about the situation for Tanya and me is we do have a large extended family network in the US, for both of us. I have, you know, uncles and aunts and cousins that live on both coasts, and some of them have been here for decades like myself. And in fact, I have extended family in the Bay Area, right?
Michael Williams (56:39.374)
Manil has cousins that are local. And so that is something that like we are very grateful for because we at least can have, you know, for him had be exposed to the concept of like family, even though it's not like the grandparents every day in and day out that where possible, we'll try and interact with our extended family. And you know, in the Indian culture, especially traditionally, the family unit is very strong. And so that's true for my family. And so I can often turn to them.
for support, advice, wisdom, whatever it be, when the time comes. So that's definitely one place. And then, you know, I have a sibling, I have a sister who's older than me, who lives in Boston. And so, you know, we are very close. And so that's the other opportunity we have where either to create a stronger, you know, family unit and bond, but also I turn to her for a lot of advice.
from a parenting perspective because chances are when I'm going through or I have a question about she's gone through it already. When your parents come, they stay in your house?
Yes. Which is, I'll just say that this is not as easy as you think or some might think. So that's kind of what I wanted to ask is how do you, when the six weeks is up, how do you make sure the relationship is still intact? Well, I think he first has to work off the 15 pounds he's gained.
That was definitely a truth statement. Look, I think that firstly in Indian culture, the concept of like what they usually call a joint family is something that actually is quite common when traditionally in India, a lot of people after getting married will live with their parents on either side or some cases both.
Michael Williams (58:41.07)
or having your parents come live with you is very common. So culturally, it's like an accepted and a normal thing, but practically is where it gets really challenging. In our case, one of, you know, we have a single family home in, you know, just north of Berkeley in the Bay Area, three bedroom and one bath situation. When you've got like four adults and a kid and you've got one bathroom, I don't have to spell it out for you. That's challenging. So,
That type of thing makes it that much harder. I feel like if we lived in a place that we just had more space where we could have more boundaries and like not be in each other's faces, it would make a world of a difference. Because after six weeks, it's like, it kind of gets a little bit, you know. So I think those are small things. Do you do anything specific? Did you have any specific conversations with your parents? Are there implicit expectations on you? We've had conversations.
And I think there are some implicit expectations that have been set on both sides just to manage things because we just needed to have those conversations, I will say. So, yes, it's not all peaches and cream from that perspective, right? There's more to it than meets the eye. Were they receptive to that? And this is the type of thing that could be awesome and could go very wrongly, even if everyone has the
the best of intentions, just plopping. yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's so true. Like I'm fortunate for instance, that my wife Tanya has a really, really good relationship with my parents, right? You can imagine a situation in which that didn't happen and we have to spend time together. So, and I know friends that deal with that, right? And so, and even despite that, there are moments where I think it just becomes a lot for everybody involved because,
We're all adult and humans, right? And we all have our own quirks and personalities and, you know, there are things that like my mom does now in the kitchen that I'm like, as a kid, I didn't care about. Now I'm like, that's my kitchen. Like, stop doing that, you know, like small little things. And so you, it can definitely be testy at times and not ideal. So what I will say is that like, my goal and I haven't had the answer here is,
Michael Williams (01:01:05.23)
you know, and this is something I, my wife and I actively need to solve for is how do we create a space and environment where we can allow for the grandparents to come and see and allow for them to spend extended time with us and our child without necessarily, you know, all having to be like within, you know, 300 square feet of each other all the time. So we're just figuring that out right now. Early on when, when, when your son was young and they came,
Did you have any challenges where you're a new parent? Their experience, you know, they've raised a couple kids. Did they come in? Did they want to give advice? Did you seek advice when they were present? You know, how did that? You can have a case where especially for, I would imagine for a mother, your wife, where you're trying to find your footing, you're making mistakes, you're...
and someone's looking over your shoulder. Was that part of what you had to resolve with them or discuss with them? I'm just kind of curious what it was like early on and how you, to me, this topic is like so rich. Because it's a land. I can't imagine spending six weeks with either set of parents and I'm watching his brain explode. He's like, I don't understand the physics.
of this. We went through that. So when Neil was born, my mom was here with us, right? And we were fortunate that she had already gone through being a grandparent to my niece and nephew, my sister's kids, who, you know, now they're like 15 and 12 or whatever, right? But having
been there to support my sister and through her pregnancy and that sort of thing. She brought with her just a certain amount of wealth and knowledge, right? That came to be extremely helpful to us. I will also give enormous credit to my wife because she was very accepting of that help. Not all mothers in that situation would be, especially if it's your mother -in -law. And
Michael Williams (01:03:32.398)
So that it actually turned out to be a blessing, you know, for us because, you know, there were you guys are parents, you know how it goes. You're in the zombie phases, I like to call it where, you know, you're not really getting enough sleep and you're taking it. It's a sex survival mode almost day to day. It's beautiful and chaotic and, you know, all of those things at the same time. And so,
There were times when Neil would be up at two, three in the morning and just crying and nothing we did would help. And we like to joke that my mom is a baby whisperer because literally Tanya would just be like, give Neil to my mom and she'd be like, you go to bed, I got him. And then like in five minutes, he's like, peaceful again, right? And so those little things were just like lifesavers for us in that moment. The other thing that I think is kind of interesting is,
you know, in the Indian tradition over generations, there's been all this knowledge and wisdom passed from generation to generation about, you know, maternal care postpartum, right? Like what a mother should eat and how she should take care of herself because, you know, that's equally important to taking care of the baby, right? As we know. And so again, having my mom, you know, just around to be able to guide Tanya to do that was just amazing because,
She and Kanye was extremely receptive to that. So I think that was beautiful. And then at some point, you know, my mom felt like, hey, you guys got this. And then she was like, you know, I'm going to peace out. Now, that's not always the case for everybody that has this. You know, I was recently visiting my cousin in Amsterdam and he had just the family that I mean, he had three different sets of grandparents that came to stay one after the other after he had a kid. And I think he put it pretty simply to me. He's like,
It was more challenging to manage the grandparents than it was to manage the kids. I think that says it all. And I think that by the time the third set of grandparents came, he was like, we were just done with grandparents. We just want to turn to ourselves. So I think it can go either way. It's a very subjective experience based on personalities and so on. One of the things you mentioned that stuck out to me that I think is both unique and very special is the relationship your partner has with your mom.
Michael Williams (01:05:56.718)
Like that relationship, the wife to mother -in -law relationship is understandably tenuous is what we're usually striving for, you know, and the function to dysfunction. Do you have like click into that? How did that happen? Like, was that simply the choices of your wife and her mindset going into that or was there any, if there's anybody listening, is there anything special or specific?
that you did to really unlock that relationship. You know, I don't think there's anything that I did particularly. I just, if I'm thinking about this now, it really comes down to them having personalities that align, right? At the end of the day, that matters in any type of human connection, right? There are some personalities that just won't align. We know that, right? If you know that ahead of time, then...
that's knowledge and wisdom for you to have so you can act accordingly. In this particular case, I'm fortunate that both my parents, but my mother especially, was always very warm and loving toward Tanya. She's like a second mother to Tanya. And Tanya equally is very receptive to that.
And so I think for that reason, it just made it so that, you know, through these moments over the years, including at me, at this age, Tanya values my mother's opinion. She will often go to her and ask her questions about certain things. Or if you're comfortable sharing things with her that sometimes, you know, moms won't with their in -laws. So yeah, I guess I got lucky. There's no secrets. Sounds like you picked well.
I guess so. I mean, I think there's something to be said for like, you know, this is maybe going a little off topic, but when you're, you know, before you commit to some partner, they always say like, you're not just marrying that person, you're marrying into their family, right? And so I think as much as you can do to assess that dynamic, you know, the better it is for the longevity of the relationship. I don't think that's off topic at all. I think that's a way of thinking that is not natural or normal for a lot of us.
Michael Williams (01:08:22.99)
in America but listening to you say all of that, it makes an incredible amount of sense. I think that's really very wise. There's a parallel that I noticed between your parenting experience and your parents parenting experience which is they started in India and raised a family mostly in Nigeria. You
spent your formative years in Nigeria, now you're raising your family in another in a different country. So, there's this kind of international parent parallel that you share. Did that create bonding opportunities for you and your parents? You know, there might not be country to country exact similarities but big picture. Yeah. Pretty hard.
stuff that you tried to do that they tried to do. And I'm wondering how that affected the relationship now that you're, you know, not now that you're in it, now that you're a parent and you have this way of bonding with them. I think, I think that you're spot on that in many ways, the experience, the challenges is similar, but yet different, right? Because of the time difference in which it happened and the, you know, environment is different, but fundamentally,
they were challenged with the same thing that I am, which is one of the things is in raising Neil, you know, how do you, how do you create an environment where he understands what his cultural roots are and can, can respect them and value them, but still be able to go out into the world and embrace the environment around them. Right. And that is, is they have to, you have to be deliberate about that.
It's not something that you can just wish that it happens. And I think my parents tried to be deliberate about it. In fact, they probably tried their best to create an environment where I was exposed to, you know, a number of elements of like the Indian culture, the tradition at home, which now in retrospect, I think I am I'm grateful for because otherwise growing up in West Africa, I feel like I have a lot of friends who grew up outside of India and different places in the world similar to me that don't have the ties that to the culture that I do. Right. And
Michael Williams (01:10:47.534)
I'm not saying that I have like everything like perfectly like, like, one fence, this is separate topic, but you know, sometimes Indian people will treat me as like, I'm not Indian, because I never grew up in India. And so there's that element of things too, from an identity perspective, but at least in terms of like valuing certain elements in the culture and embracing that, I think, you know, they tried to do that knowing that at home, that was the environment that they wanted to create. And then outside, like, you were, you were, you know, going to be exposed to all these different things. And I think that's very similar to the,
perspective that I have with some tweaks along the way. Right. Like, so as I mentioned, like with the, from a food perspective, like I don't feel strongly that we should be eating all the time because I love eating all kinds of food. So, you know, small things like that are going to change. And, and so, you know, we, we can, we definitely bond over that, you know, things like language and so on is also another one that comes up in this kind of context. And yeah.
I would say that like there's definitely an opportunity for us to connect more deeply from the relationship that we have. And sometimes I will ask them about certain things because I'm grappling with a question that I feel like they may have a unique insight into. What language was spoken in your house growing up? It's a very good question. And this is a very sore subject for me. So my parents each speak five different Indian languages. OK.
Our mother tongue at home was Tamil is the mother tongue that our ancestors spoke and they speak fluently. Both my parents, by the way, it's kind of maybe a little additional context, but we're from the south of India. Tamil is traditionally spoken in the south, right? But they both grew up in Mumbai or what at the time was called Bombay in the west of the country, which is actually a Hindi speaking city.
I did, no one speaks Tamil there, but they grew up in households where again, like, you know, their parents spoke to them in Tamil so that they could be fluent in it. But in addition, they speak, you know, a number of other Indian languages and they speak English fluently. Turns out that over the years with each other, they primarily speak English. And so growing up at home, we all spoke English. And now I have deep regrets about that because I confront with them about this all the time because
Michael Williams (01:13:10.254)
As a result of that, I don't have the strongest confidence in my ability to speak Tamil. I studied Hindi, because I went to an Indian school in West Africa, and so I studied Hindi. So I have some, you know, a level of conversancy there. But I don't have the confidence to speak Tamil because, you know, I'm living in West Africa. If it's not spoken in our home, how else am I going to learn it, right? But I have, on the other hand, friends whose parents only spoke to them in the language that was their, you know, what you call the mother tongue.
And I think that that is, if you did that, your child would grow up speaking that language, at least have a much better chance of like, I understand it really well, I just don't have the confidence to speak it, right? And so that's one deep regret I have. Unfortunately, now I don't have the ability to teach that to Neil, right? Because they never taught it to me. And so that is something that I think that, you know, if I had to go back in time, I would probably...
do differently because I actually realized I love learning languages and you know, it's harder to do it as you grow up, right? And especially when you're an adult, I think it's much easier when you're much younger, even just in terms of how your brain can absorb that information. So maybe that's maybe on these extended hour long iPad messaging sessions between your son and your grandparents, they're just all speaking Tamil about you.
You know, or to each other. That is a good point. This was a very long play on you. Does the iPad and prevalence of FaceTime and that sort of thing allow you to feel like you can access the knowledge and wisdom that your parents have? Or do you feel?
hindered at all given the distance of separation from them? Or does your extended family being in proximity, is that where you go? I mean, I'm just interested in how you access the generational knowledge that's available within your family. Yeah, that's a great question. I think unfortunately, even though, you know, face timing and such gives us,
Michael Williams (01:15:23.566)
opportunity to connect and catch up. I don't think I'm able to use that as much to tap into that generational knowledge and wisdom unless I come at it more, you know, specifically with, you know, questions in mind. And part of the reason for that is that these, the times that we do get together as a family, it's often them spending time with Neil, right? And so that's where the focus is. If I'm catching up separately with my parents,
Sometimes we'll get into that, but it's often like, hey, how are you doing? How's everything? How's your health? Like that sort of thing. It's a, it's a catch up, right? Versus when we are in person together and we are just having, you know, prolonged conversations about things, these, these types of things come up and more organically, I feel like there's an opportunity to, to absorb some of that wisdom and knowledge and the experience that they've had or just learned from the way they thought about things. And, and, and, you know, sometimes I'm like, I,
That's not how I see the world or whatever. But I think that it's just much easier to do that when you're in person. And so therefore, it is more challenging, I think, from that standpoint. As far as my extended family, when we do get together and so on, there is definitely an opportunity for that. And so I try, when we do have that opportunity, take advantage of it as much as possible.
It's just a question of like how often we can create that in our busy lives. Is there anything else specific that you do yourself or with Tanya to get better as a parent? You had mentioned earlier a lot of following your intuition and I'm just curious if you've codified anything else or how you approach that evolution. I think...
I mentioned this briefly earlier on, but this is something that I'm working on because it's not a strength of mine. It's a weakness and I'm trying to get better at it. But it's the notion of being a more active listener, right? And I think as Neil grows in general, I find he has so much to say, thoughts to share, insights of his own.
Michael Williams (01:17:50.798)
And, and rather than being in a position where I'm talking or dictating, I wish I'm sometimes guilty of doing, I want to try and become a better listener because I think that, you know, you can just connect with your child differently when you kind of tap into what's going on in their world. Right. And, and I think that like, for me, one of the ways in which I would like to evolve to
you know, along with him as he grows is that right? Because he's already at a point where he's into interesting and different things that I don't know as much about. And so the more I can listen to him, the more I'm able to connect with him at his level, right? And so he's going to come home listening to music that I've never heard about, right? And I want to listen to the music he listens to and sometimes I might like it, sometimes I'm not and that's okay. Right? But like, try and appreciate the world from his perspective more.
rather than kind of imposing my worldview on him, which sometimes too often happens. Yeah, this is something I've thought about a lot. My daughter's 20 months. And, you know, so I have that perspective, but with, you know, it starts right away with babies where the caretaker is imposing their will on the child. You're playing with this toy. Why don't you play with that toy?
or, hey, come over here and go down the slide. If you really think about it or pay attention to it, it's crazy how often you're telling the child what to do about inconsequential things, about how to experience a certain moment or whatever. And I have been trying really hard to just stay out of the way and to take it upon myself to, as you said,
really try to understand her experience and follow her. Be second, you know, as much as possible. I want to be following her coattails on whatever it is that she's doing, whatever she finds interesting in that moment. Yes. Very hard. Very hard. You have to stop yourself and check yourself. You know, if you're aware about...
Michael Williams (01:20:15.342)
not happening. I'll just like yesterday evening is a good example. Neil just celebrated seventh birthday last Friday. And so we had a birthday party last weekend and he got new gifts. And one of them was the game, the board game risk that you guys probably know well. I actually never grew up playing risk, just one of those things. And so, you know, he wanted to sit down right before bedtime and open it up and play.
And I was like, I don't think this is the time that we can get into playing. And especially because I was like, I got to read the rules and it's detailed. Like I want to do this right next to do it on the weekend. And so he sat there for like, you know, five minutes and then I was just like browsing the instructions and so on. And I was like, yeah, we're definitely doing this on the weekend. Not now. And then he came to me and he's like, I said, I actually want to play the game different. And I was like, what do you mean? Like I have my own game I want to create with.
with these cards and the dice. And my first instinct was to be like, no, no, no, we'll just play Risk how you should play Risk, like whatever, right? But I was like, sure, what's your idea? And so then he started proceeding to explain his version of a game to me that he just conjured up in his head. And I just was like, OK, you know what? I'm just going to listen and follow. That's all I'm going to do. It was just.
actually turned out to be easier to do for me than trying to figure out how to play a new game for the first time. So it was like loading the cognitive load, right? Which by the way is a good pro move if you're ever finding yourself playing with your kid, you just let them lead you and then you don't have to like always be creative and stuff like that. And it was an interesting game and then, you know, he can be very analytical about stuff. And so he was like,
the two types of dice with different colors. And so like in one of them, you had to add the numbers and the other one you had to subtract. And then you took like the aggregate. I don't know, he was doing some complicated stuff. I was like, I had him do all the math for me. Like, can you tell me what my what my number should be? And anyway, I just I just played along but followed his lead. And lo and behold, like, you know, I was like, half an hour went by and it was bedtime, right. And so
Michael Williams (01:22:24.27)
I think the more we can do to encourage that, I think it sometimes will make life easier for you too. Great advice. I'm curious if you have any reflections as you look back on the different stages that your son has gone through and how you've experienced it in terms of from a baby to toddler to now a full child. If you take a moment right now just to...
just to stop and look back at that. Because I do this occasionally where I'll look back and it can be quite emotional if I really sit and look at the time that has passed, the experience I try to, what jumps out at you as you just look back at that right now? Yeah, I think the first thing that jumps out at me is how quickly time flies. That there's, he's seven, but yet I feel like we've lived a lifetime already.
Right? Because there's just been so many, so many beautiful moments that we've shared together as father and son, as a family. And so my head just is flooded with those memories, but like also just notion of like, you know, time will fly and soon he'll be, you know, a teenager and off to college or whatever. And so that's, that's the first thing that comes to mind. I think the other thing that comes to mind is that as he has grown,
I feel like, you know, there's been more and more opportunity to experience and re -experience what it's like to be a child, right? And almost relive my childhood. And I love doing that because in some ways it's like, again, it's like how much can I, how can I create these moments where,
I'm watching him live the best version of his life in that moment, but also see the world through his eyes. And so, whether it be like he's now into sport. And so, there's been different ways in which we've had to cement the bond and that shape has evolved. In the early years, actually, he was in many ways...
Michael Williams (01:24:44.078)
closer to his mom and they still have a very deep bond and relationship that I don't think I can ever replace, right? That's almost like biological. But then as he has grown, you know, and become a boy in some ways, there are certain things that him and I now have a very special bond over that is irreplaceable, right? And so like, for instance, with music, you know, we now...
enjoy both doing things musically and it's still very early stages and he's only been learning the piano for a few months. But he'll often come to me for input or advice on certain things that he has or ideas he has and that's something I cherish a lot. So yeah, I think it's just, it's like, and I'm looking forward to what is the next set of things that we'll connect and bond over, right, as he grows and evolves.
And my goal is to sort of like just be more active and present with him and try and be there to enjoy the journey and the moments because it will all pass through quickly. It's definitely been a positive experience for me to re -engage with the childhood, the child perspective, the openness to no boundary thinking. And...
the full, taking the full delight in something. You know, I think about how often I, something cool happens and I don't fully engage with something that I think is cool. I give it a quarter of the energy of appreciating it that it deserves. And I have, one of the things that I've tried to attune to is that, is as you mentioned, that,
a second opportunity to view the world that way. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, sometimes life is so hectic, we forget to do that. Yeah. One thing I'm interested in is the role of a parent as teacher. Cause I love what you're talking about, which is, you know, really role of parent to follow, right? To be there to support, but the focus and the energy and what we're doing and why we're doing it and all that.
Michael Williams (01:27:01.102)
to be driven by the child. I'm interested, the kind of, a parallel to that is when we were trying to teach a child something. And I'm wondering if you have examples of that as well. And then the question is how do you balance those? Yes, yes. It's a good question. And, you know, when you think about like teaching, it could be, you know,
whatever a hobby, it could be teaching them a life lesson in that moment, right? It could be maybe disciplining them too, that's a form of teaching in my view. I think that there is plenty of that that happens in my life and in our world. And again, I think this goes back to me in terms of like, what is the, it's useful, I think, to have a values -based system to approach this because,
you can at least try and figure out in a given moment if there's an opportunity to instill in him some wisdom or whatever. I think that at the age that my son is at, he's seven, he's not always receptive to what you have to say. And sometimes, especially if it's correcting a certain behavior or teaching him to do things a little differently, I find that sometimes, and this is where every parent is different, every child is different, right? So you have to figure out what works for you.
But he sometimes is actually, the first thing that comes out of his mouth is no, or I won't. It's very natural for children to respond in that way. But the thing I've realized is that you don't just stop there and give up. You come back to it in a way where you maybe find a different moment in time or at a different point. And over a period of time, I think the message might get across to him that he needs to either consider a different perspective.
you know, on whatever the subject is or something new that he can, a different way for him to think about something, right? And so, like, that's that. The second thing that I will say is that if you are trying to instill in them, you know, some wisdom or teaching them or, you know, a form of discipline, knowing that you're off, in some cases, gonna get pushback, it's important to pick your battles.
Michael Williams (01:29:23.374)
Right you can't you cannot you cannot die on the vine for every single thing because then you'll just be butting heads a lot right and so like one example is and I'm still working on this but in the winter time and the rainy season you know we'll get rain jackets and we'll get rain boots and he does not want to do any of that he doesn't want to wear them he's like I don't know why he just you know he doesn't he only wants to wear so he's a California kid he's supposed to wear hoodie all day and
And it's probably fine except we've been getting a ton of rain and he gets down with the cold. And I like, I can be a little protective about it from that perspective. And I'd be like, Neil, we have like a rain jacket and boots for a reason. Like we wear them. It's like, look, there's all these kids on the street wearing them. Like, why won't you wear them to school? And he's very headstrong. And so my wife has had to tell me, she's like, of all the things that we have to like, you know, try and worry about and like potentially like argue over, like, this is probably one you want to just like.
take a step back on. So I'm working through that right now. Right? You go into the laundry room and stew for a few minutes.
Michael Williams (01:30:34.926)
Yep. Yep.
you'll figure out ultimately I think what works or doesn't sometimes and it's okay. That's the other thing I realized is that we sometimes are too hard on ourselves. I don't want to say that generically because I'm sure there are parents out there that don't take this seriously or have different circumstances that prevent them from being as good of a parent that they want to be. But I think that you just, you gotta, you gotta,
It's a very experiential thing, right? There's no formula for success. You just have to try and figure out what works. My last question for you is what advice do you have for any future dads or people getting ready to be a dad? I think I'll actually pick up where I just left off a second ago because it's a good question that I struggle with and reason for that is I...
I never thought that I was actually ready or prepared to be a dad, mentally or otherwise, right? Until I actually became one. And then I had to figure it out. Circumstances required me to just figure this out. And I think there is a lot of advice that people will give you important bits of wisdom and books that you can read. But as I said, parenting is a very experiential thing and you have to live it.
to figure out on your own what your approach to parenting is going to be. Because every child is different and every parent is different and every family dynamic is different, right? What works for somebody else may work for you or it may not. And that's okay. And so I think that's an important mentality to take because what often happens I think is we're all guilty of social comparison. We're all guilty of looking at what other people are doing and saying,
Michael Williams (01:32:31.118)
why is my child not that way or why do I have to say these things to my kid when the other family doesn't or you know, or the other way around. You like look at me like, man, these guys do not have a parent. Like look, I'm awesome. Like every individual in family are going on their own journey and there are different stages of that, right? So I think as some famous guy once said, social comparisons like the thief of joy. And so like try as much as possible to not like do that.
the one advice I would give parents and then, you know, more than anything else, like just make the time and effort to be mindfully present through this journey because it's going to fly by very fast. Right. And so it's, it's simple from my perspective on like some of the things that you need to do, but just know that it's, it's a, it's a very unique and individual journey. And if you're going through a period when it seems like a slog and you're not getting through to your kid or whatever,
Everything is a phase. They will grow, you will grow and learn. Hopefully everyone will evolve in the right direction, but it's all a phase, right? Try not to take it too personally. If that happens, it's the lesson that I've learned. Love it. Awesome. Well, Surya, thank you. This has been really interesting. It's quite a path that your life has
journeyed through and getting to hear about it was really neat. So I appreciate you coming on here and learning more. It was really awesome to hear about. Thank you guys for having me. You know what, I'll say that, hey, not only did I enjoy the session we just had, but also in kind of maybe just mentally preparing for it, it definitely kind of forced me to pause and reflect.
on my journey so far as being a father. And I think I would encourage everyone to do that periodically because it's actually a very rewarding thing to do. Thank you. Yeah. As a reminder, this is a podcast for anyone who is a dad, has been a dad, or is considering being a dad, anyone interested in learning what it's like to be a dad, and finally, anyone interested in supporting someone who is a dad. So thank you again.
Michael Williams (01:34:57.166)
And good luck to everybody listening.