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Follow one church's journey as they depart from modern church growth trends and reinvent themselves by equipping everyday Christians to live out their faith in real life. Find episodes and show notes at www.dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
Danielle (00:18.03)
Hey, welcome in today's episode pre holiday musings, mic drop moments, key systems for any church and personal retreat ideas. Oh, nice. Yeah. Episode 40. is. Do you? Yeah. You're able to still remember that? Yes, you can. OK, how old are you? Don't ask that question. Forty six. Oh, yeah, I remember. I don't remember it being a thing.
The big 4-0. Huh? I remember when I turned 40.
can't ask your girl that question.
Derek (00:41.462)
So you remember more recently than I do.
Danielle (00:47.424)
No, I remember like. Yeah, I could see. Yeah, that doesn't feel good.
None of them were a thing for me till 50. 50 was a thing. Yeah, it feels like you're on death's doorstep.
Well yeah, you are. As soon as you are. Yeah. Well it's like whenever, I mean, you know, but it's like when people start dying in your life. Yeah, And like, you know. Yeah. That's it.
Yeah, so but 40 for the podcast does not represent death. It represents life. know. Good.
sure does. It really does. What's the prevailing wisdom? need to have like 100 episodes.
Derek (01:18.35)
To even be a thing. We're not even there. We're not even No, we haven't done squat but
We're not even doing anything yet.
Speaking of, we're at the end of the season where we've done nothing squat.
We've done a lot of good stuff. This has been really cool. I really, really love the conversations we've been able to have this year. We did something new by bringing in lots of outside guests who are also kind of on this journey, this kind of similar journey that we're on. And really been great to get their wisdom. think if people are just popping in, it'd be a good season to go rewind and catch
Yeah, a lot of good people with a of good thoughts. And I think, yeah, we don't know yet what next season will hold, but we're going to try to pivot a little bit and do something different. Just, you know, like we always do.
Derek (02:01.294)
And we also had Clarity House this time around. The Dave and Shane spots were just gold. I've just heard so much great feedback from those. Those guys are so wise. They're kind of the common denominator with all these guests is they're the ones who've kind of helped each of the churches or leaders that we had on. I have had some connection with Dave and Shane and Clarity House. And so we're really thankful for their partnership this season.
I know.
Danielle (02:22.83)
Yeah, it's been awesome. Okay, so it's almost Christmas by the time this drops. It is, almost Christmas. I didn't have a ton of things, but I just thought we could talk, I don't know, I feel like we need to catch up on some things. Okay. Number one, I would like to catch up on Wicked. As of the recording, neither one of us has seen it yet. Right. Do you even care? No. Okay, cool. do. Yeah. Like, catch me?
Yeah
Derek (02:44.75)
I know you do though, so...
Danielle (02:50.72)
at the wrong moment. If someone asked me, I don't know, or the right moment, you could find me in a choir right now. If someone just caught me off
Just so you're so re-inspired around-
yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, I guess maybe what
It is incredible. Yeah
Steven Schwartz, I feel like he's like our, Andrew Lloyd Webber or something. Like he is so, like when you get into the music, the stuff that he has done in that is crazy.
Derek (03:20.45)
I'm out of the loop. You're gonna have to educate.
You gotta get, I'm not going to, it could be hours. But, like one example. So like, Glinda, who's like the good witch, quote unquote, always has like the high harmonies or the high melody. Elphaba, who's the bad witch, always has like the low harmonies or the low melody in the song. So I think one of the best songs in the show is called For Good, and it's a play on words like.
I don't know if I've been changed for the better, but I know I've been changed for good. So that's, it's a double thing. And they, during that whole song, are slowly switching their positions where like Elphaba then is doing like the high harmonies at the end and Glenda's doing the more like bass rooted notes and stuff. It's just stuff like that. has like Easter eggs from like the Wizard of Oz and the melody, like the piano lines and stuff. Anyway, I appreciate stuff like that. So I'm like full on geek out mode. I'm actually annoyed cause I can't see it.
until like two days after it comes out. I'm like dark on TikTok.
Yep.
Derek (04:25.343)
yeah, can't be. you can't Yeah, here's what happened.
Well, you know, you're just innocently scrolling and they'll be like... Yeah, anyway. Yeah, so I just, I don't know. And also, like for me, Christmas, I don't know if you're the same, there's always either we're seeing something new that came out or catching up on like an old movies or like stuff like that. So like I get really like storytelling and artie at Christmas time.
Exactly. Yeah, were just in California and we went to the Getty Museum. And so it's the same thing. It's a different... When I'm in an art museum, I get really creative. My mind goes crazy around. And part of it, even the old stuff, you see stuff that's been around for a long time. But I hear you saying that this has that effect on you. When you expose yourself to certain things, it fires different neurons into your brain or whatever.
And I felt that just last week with that, with just that art museum was incredible.
Yeah. I remember one time I was in the Andy Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh. sat in a room full of metallic balloons for probably two hours. And I was just like, what am I? I couldn't stop thinking. my gosh.
Derek (05:39.348)
Exactly. It makes me want to write. makes me want to like, just like just fight. I like have so many ideas.
And see, not to be cheesy, but this is anything, not anything artistic. Well, kind of. Things that are artistic really do point me to the existence of God. Because what is the point of it? Evolutionarily, it has no...
There's no point. Why would we care about beauty? We just care about survival.
Right. I don't know. Anytime I see anything, I'm like, man. Yeah. Yeah. So there's about six or seven movies.
I agree.
Derek (06:14.786)
Listen, speaking of current events, this 6-7 thing, so we were on a, so here, just let me paint the picture. But we can't stay here long. Danielle, we've got work to do. But listen, so you had to call into a meeting yesterday, okay, because you were still dropping DACs off at school. We had to move the meeting time up and it fell into school drop off time. And so, so you're on speaker, DACs in the back seat, we're having our meeting and Scott decides to drop in the 6-7 reference.
Good.
Derek (06:44.856)
for Dak's benefit. And so he starts cackling from the backseat. Like we can hear him already going just with the mention of. Yeah, going up and down. Just by naming these two numbers that have existed side by side for all eternity. And now all of a sudden when you. I mean, I just saw like on Sports Center the other night, there was like a women's basketball game.
His hands are up.
Danielle (07:01.646)
Someone was like 8'2".
Derek (07:08.738)
that it was during the day and so they had filled it with like all the elementary schools in the town or whatever. And like the girl, the poor girl shooting the free throws was to make it 67 points. And so she sinks the free throw and they said it's never been louder in that arena that these elementary kids like we're losing their mind. yeah, what did
is going on? The other, okay, we've talked about the problem with my TikTok algorithm before. Another addition into it right now is like kids, youth, at deli counters and grocery stores with their phones or like in and out burger. Just waiting. It's like it's dead silence. And then you hear the person just go number 67. They're freaking out. They're like filming it. They're jumping up and down, high fiving or whatever.
It's so funny. It's so dumb and funny. I kind of like things like that. So here's my, and I'm going to share my secret that I think we have enough time before this drops that nobody will steal my idea before I get to it. So I went through, this is so dumb, but I went through and found my top six or seven, six, seven verses in the Bible.
Thank you to it. It me up.
Danielle (08:14.318)
Thank you.
Danielle (08:28.29)
when you say it like that it is dumb. But it isn't. It's gonna be great.
And I'm gonna go, we're gonna video me going up to some of our youth and I've got little slips of paper that have the passage and then the reference that says, know, Matthew 6-7. And have them read the passage. I'm their pastor, so they're gonna be in a moment on screen, on camera with their pastor and go read this passage and then tell me what comes to mind from this passage. And I wanna see if any of them can keep a straight face with the 6-7. Or if any of them will just call it out like the thing I see most is the 6-7.
I wonder.
Derek (09:02.638)
In which case, I probably need to resign. Right? And they don't even notice. I'll be very proud. I'll be very proud. can use it either way. I'll use it either way. I'll probably record my introduction to the video at the end based on what happens. go, I'm going to see how holy our kids are or I'm going to see how, It'll be fun.
Yeah. What if our kids are too holy?
Danielle (09:14.37)
Yeah, my gosh.
Danielle (09:25.462)
I love it. right. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas everybody. Happy.
Happy six, seven. Could we work it out for Christmas?
Probably working on Christmas at the Warner. That would be funny actually. Yeah. I wonder if the Countdown Own could work something out, just for kids that are like in the room, be cute. Anyway, hey everyone, we're doing a podcast, not talking to each other. so normally this is where we would do our reinventing church topic with our guest and Clarity House. But what we thought we could do just to kind of close out this season is you've picked seven. Yeah. Oh, six We'll see.
How many we get?
Mike drop moments from these people that we've interviewed and so let's just go through one by one and talk about just kind of talk about
Derek (10:13.356)
Yeah, great. So one of the first ones this season was from Sunday to every day with Trey Taylor. he said this, said, we need to teach people to hear God's voice. And this is in keeping with like something we've been talking about around here. And it's like when he said it, it just reminded me of this like deep conviction. think that all of us walked away from our time with Clarity House. I think Dave might have been the first to say it when I was listening where he said the greatest gift we can give our people.
is to help them discern the voice of God for themselves. And not become dependent on someone else to hear the voice of God for them. And you think about, just one of the greatest gifts that we, like when Jesus says in John 10, my sheep hear my voice. Not I hope they do, not I wish they would, know, do. My sheep hear my voice. And so he just assumes that that's true for anybody who.
Yes. Yes, for themselves.
Derek (11:11.084)
Not the pastor hears my voice, but my sheep hear my voice. And so, I think one of the things that has really convicted us in all the stuff that we're doing, all of the trainings and all of the things that we're trying to implement for our folks is to just say, at the end of the day, can we make sure that somehow this points to helping people not become dependent on someone else to hear God's voice for them? And again, we need community.
You know, people trying to discern God's voice alone in a vacuum is not really a great thing. So we need that community. We need the corporate kind of collective understanding of God's voice. But I think actually that's not the danger. I think the danger has swung the direction of, I don't know God's voice at all. Hopefully my pastor gives a good sermon on Sunday and I'll get a good feeling and that that'll be God's voice.
Right.
Danielle (12:06.19)
It's about to the high holy thing. It's like that you don't need a priest, you don't need a mediator, know? Well, an earthly mediator. like, I think too, it's like the... How do you want to say it? It's almost like the... It's like a spiritual equalizer.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Levels the field. you know, one of the things that I love about this is that it is so it's not complicated. And, you know, we've talked this season a lot about these leadership intensives that we're doing. it is one of the like moments for me in my ministry and 30 years of ministry. just like,
So we can all.
Yep.
Derek (12:50.248)
It's really simple. I've overcomplicated this a lot of times and to literally have an idea, a verse, a book quote, a couple of principles, and then build some questions around that and then get a little group of people together and go read this, read these questions and where does the Holy Spirit
stop you? Where does the spirit convict you? Which of these questions does the spirit bring to off the page to you and then say, why? What do you think he's saying? And even that simple exercise is just like a baby step to going, that's the voice of like, he stopped you on that question for a reason. What is he, what is he trying to get after? And it's like a simple way to teach people how to hear the Holy spirit for themselves.
God. Right.
Derek (13:50.806)
And then on the back end we can go, well, why did he stop you there? What is he actually trying to communicate? Hey, everybody else in this circle, what do you think the spirit, because the spirit now will speak through us to that person. And then it's just, what are you gonna do about it? And then it becomes an obedience issue. But that simple framework of just going, if you just had,
Exactly.
Derek (14:17.336)
quote an or a Bible verse and a couple of questions and say what is the Holy Spirit telling you? That's a simple way to teach people to.
And lest anyone think this is too simple. I would say the first time we did the round of intensives, like within our own staff, just to kind of test some stuff out, they were all successful, but the ones that were the most successful and that still have stories coming out of them and things are still happening are the ones that stuck to that exact model. Didn't over, cause some of them were like, let's add this in and let's do let's teach this. And it was nothing bad, but like those ones, honestly.
were the most effective ones. Right. Yeah, that's a really good reminder. Yeah.
So imagine that, get in a circle, let the Spirit of God work, do what He says, and we got church, we got discipleship, we got everything we need. And then we trust Him to convict us of the right things. We go, okay, is it evangelism time? Then He's gonna convict us of those people that we need to reach out to. Is it lean in deeper learning time? We're gonna trust that He's gonna convict us of that in the moment. So we can write all the curriculums we want, and in the end, the Spirit of God is the teacher.
Yeah.
Danielle (15:28.268)
Yeah, good. All right. Second one is from Phil Eubank. This is where we're talking about moving from complexity to clarity. And he said, put the cookies on the bottom shelf. funny.
Yeah, mic drop moment. That's what we're talking about here. Mic drop moments. just think, you know, what a great picture to say. And it kind of goes with what we were just talking about. like, have we made discipleship too complicated? Have we made these ideas too complicated so that people think it's a master's level thing and I'm not a master's level Christian versus going actually.
It's really simple. And this the picture of like putting the cookies on the bottom shelf so that anybody can reach them. I just think is a really, really clarifying.
Yes.
pastors and church leaders to go don't over
Danielle (16:26.222)
Right and I think too this might be taking the metaphor too far, but when I was rereading it I was thinking about so a lot of parents I think do this Dax has like an area in our kitchen Like a shelf area that he can anytime he wants anything from that area on the shelf the area in the fridge He can have it so like different crackers, you know fruit stuff like that so I've done the work of Here are the things you're a yeah, I've curated
Meal plan for him snack plan, so I don't have to you know worry and he and it's at his level He can get his enough climb up on a counter and blah blah. Anyway, I was just thinking like that's kind of the church's part is like You don't just like throw open cookies on the shelf, but you're like put the cookie jar. This is the jar, right? This is how we're helping you And of course people can do what they want, but like I just love that clarity. Yeah
Yeah, I think it's good. you know, again, like you just said, people can do what they want. mean, people have access to every amount of information they want to have access to these days. like for the church itself, I think sometimes we can just get so crazy in the stuff that we offer. And here's what this huge pathway looks like. And here's what all the and it's just like, man, if we could just make it simple and let people know that that's OK. It's this is related, not right in the center of the target. But yesterday we had our we were having our initial brainstorm for building out
our training, a master training course around a compassionate storyteller. And one of the exercises that we went through in there is just to say, I think it would be helpful for people as we think about telling your story, telling God's story, telling your story, how does your story intersect with God's story, one of the exercises to go have them explain the story of God to a child.
Yes.
Derek (18:13.574)
And so, and if you can get it into that level of language, because it's a, you have to sort through some stuff to get it to that place where you're not just borrowing all the Christianese you've ever heard, which actually doesn't mean much probably to you anyway. You know, they're just words that you think are associated to, and if you have to explain it to a child, you actually have to explain it. You have to get it into its like most basic form. And I don't know that it just reminds me of that.
We need to get stuff into its most basic form get all of the Complex stuff out of the way. Hmm and just go here's what here's what the baseline is
Yeah, I mean, I've said this before, like we're all just kids trying to learn stuff. That's right. That's what it is. Right. Like just, yeah.
Yeah, and I think more people in our churches see themselves as kids trying to learn stuff than we.
I 100 % I 100 % agree with that.
Derek (19:10.934)
I think we pastors see their people as masters level graduate students who want them to be way up here. And I've just learned kind of the simpler I've made it, the simpler we've talked about it, the more people who actually I thought were graduate level students have come up and said, that was the game changer for me. When you said it that way, when you guys gave that exercise or training.
Yeah.
never thought about it before. it's like, we assume all kinds of things about and it's like simpler. just think is always better. And then you're to have somebody crying from the back. needs to be. Why aren't we, you know, doing more theology and all, which is all great stuff. Yeah. But I think sometimes for that one person who thinks that we make everything top shell instead of anyway, we're beating the horse.
We really do.
Danielle (19:48.28)
deeper and
Derek (20:05.868)
The dead horse. It's dead? Yeah, it's dead.
Okay. Gross. right, third one. Control kills calling from Brent Minter. This is when we're talking about multiplying. So moving from staff driven to leader multiplied. Yeah.
What do you think of when you hear control kills calling?
I've probably killed a lot of people's colonists. wow. If you want my honest answer. No, I think way back at the beginning. mean, obviously, as I've grown, this has changed. But I mean, I remember even like youth ministry days. And we loved it. But the manuals that we made for these people for how to do stuff. Right. And they're kids. So it's different, obviously. like, dude.
I had like a manual on greeting. It was like a three ring minor that was probably like an inch thick on like how to be nice. How to be nice when we have youth. Well, we did kind of, but like just, you know, and of course for most people, most, would say most our staff and I'll speak for our staff. Most of them are not controlling to be controlling by nature. It's not, it's a thing where it's like you feel
Derek (20:57.752)
human person.
Derek (21:03.128)
So some people need that.
Danielle (21:21.122)
I think you feel like a responsibility. And so the growth curve is what do you let go of, how do develop people within the ministry, what can you, yeah, all those things. can you let go of?
Yeah, and I think the tricky middle space is figuring out, because I do think, as we've gotten more into this calling thing and helping people discover their calling, it's a powerful process, exercise. I do start to realize on the back end, man, the more controls we put on stuff and go, here are the four programs where someone can live out their calling at grace, all of a sudden, man, we're harnessing something that wasn't meant to be harnessed.
On the other hand, and this is the tension, is parameters, they bring clarity. And so I think the figuring out is where do we put those parameters. And so like, for example, I feel like as part of our handcrafted class, we've said, OK, we're not going to tell people exactly how or where or whatever to live out their calling. We want to help them identify where it might be their primary place.
Yeah, they do.
Derek (22:36.898)
But like, so one of the parameters we put on is to say, the business space, the marketplace is a place where you can live out your calling. Your neighborhood is a place where you live out your calling. We're assuming family. Everybody lives out there and their family, but marketplace neighborhood, a nonprofit, or an affinity group. the workout buddies, book club, whatever somebody's involved in. Right now I'm to live out my calling there. think those, yeah. And cheer and church and church. Yeah, exactly.
So I think those parameters are not inhibiting. think they're helpful because it helps people to clarify. We're not saying here's what you have to do. We're just giving parameters to say, we're trying to help you think about where God has placed you right now and where he might be calling you to step in. So anyway, think that control versus parameters is an important tension to think
Right.
Danielle (23:33.678)
think about. And to piggyback off of that, we've started our, we have a group who's basically designing the quote unquote programming that's gonna come out of Handcrafted that's gonna help people live out their calling. So those spheres are kind of our buckets. So, you know, that's helping that team even the other night. Yes. Okay, these are the buckets, these are the buckets, these are the buckets, these are the buckets. Keep dreaming, do stuff, think about it, whatever, but like these are the buckets and it helps, it just helps.
Yeah
And the other tension I think is between control and authority, like coming under the authority of the church, is that that's a thing too. That these callings weren't meant to be lived out willy-nilly, whatever you think is right, and just go to it and have no accountability or no check-ins with somebody in authority over you. So I still think the church exists kind of in that space to be this kind of umbrella authority over people living out their callings within the mission of Jesus.
true.
Derek (24:33.12)
And so it does just become very tricky when we get overly controlling about where people can live.
those out. good, that's good. Yeah. Fourth one, ask not is my sermon worth preaching, but do I have a life worth imitating? That's from Dave Rhodes. Dave Rhodes or Taylor Swift?
Taylor Swift had a lyric like that. would listen to that song. She probably does. no, that's just so good. Isn't it from Rhodes? like, I do think, and again, this is not a, it's not an either or. Sure. Cause we still do want to give, have sermons that are worth preaching. Of course. But I think the, I think the, the mic drop moment in that is just, sometimes that becomes the sole focus. Yeah. And we forget that,
I'll find you one.
Derek (25:27.136)
our ministry goes beyond just our words, it goes to our life. And, you know, when we talk about the teaching to training shift, the reason that that becomes so exposing is because teachers can teach and the words kind of are separated from them. There's this middle space in between the teacher and the things over here. Whereas a trainer, you're inviting people in to go copy my life.
Yeah.
Danielle (25:45.058)
The thing is over.
Danielle (25:54.316)
Right.
or, and here's some stuff that we're talking about and here's what I've tried and here's what I'm inviting you to try. And there, it's a much closer proximity. And it, and it does become, and again, re look at Jesus, look at Paul, look at how these guys led. it was Paul become like me as I become like Jesus and Jesus, you know, follow me and not follow my teachings. Follow me.
Mm-hmm
And he was inviting them into these experiences where he was doing things and then entrusting them to do the same thing. And it's just an important shift for.
I mean, it would be like, you know, if you're on like a football team, forgive me. And your trainer was... And the athletic trainer was like, what's a down? Right. Right? Or like if you're at the gym and like a 400 pound, no shade, person holding a McDonald's bag and like a double Budweiser sip.
Danielle (27:04.446)
helmet walks in and is like, all right, we're going to start with the bench press.
No. Is there someone else?
Yeah, you know, do I want to imitate this? You know, that's really good. Is that person trustworthy? You know, the whole thing. Right. But did you like that I said down? That's impressive. Yeah.
Yeah, really? Yeah, it's the Travis Kelce effect, isn't it?
No, you're mistaken. Actually, it's Blue the mascot from the Indianapolis Colts. He's also in my algorithm for some reason. obsessed with him. I want to go to a Colts game just to watch this mascot. He's hilarious.
Derek (27:35.79)
I'm
Derek (27:41.62)
are really effective in their marketing.
Listen, they are. And he's hilarious. Anyway, sorry. That's all right. Speaking of
But yeah, I would say like mmm That's not just a that's not just a call for power That's in that's an everyday person challenge because and I know we talked about it before here, but like it's that whole Daniel Situation where you know where we were talking about you know Trust me versus test me
I agree.
Derek (28:12.29)
that Christians today, we just wanna say, hey, just trust me. Jesus is worth following. Trust me, Christianity is true. Trust me, I'm gonna convince you by my arguments. And the Daniel thing, as he stood up to Nebuchadnezzar and was being integrated and assimilated into Babylonian culture, when he drew the line and said, I'm not gonna eat your food, his thing wasn't trust me, his thing was test me. Test my God and see if this way isn't better. And...
Yeah.
Danielle (28:38.424)
Yeah.
You know, I think that call for Christians today is to go, let's move from trust me that my arguments are right to test me that my life is worth imitating. And that's a different kind of impact, you know, on the people in our lives. It's not just a pastor ship.
So. Agreed. That's well said, that's Fifth one, gospel influencers are meant to be catalytically sent, not selfishly collected. Jeremy Alderman said that. Yeah.
So great. yeah, and I think it does speak to this hoarding mentality. I was just like, if you get a great person that starts coming to your church, you're like, I want them, and I'm going to put them in this ministry and this ministry and this ministry. And you know how we do that. And then the staff are fighting over the same person.
yeah, you look a year later and they're like in five ministries and an elder. You're like, what?
Derek (29:33.092)
and burnt out along the side of the road.
Yes, right.
out. But this shift of just going, we don't collect those people, we send them out into their mission field, think is just a great shift.
And I think for us to, at least for me,
Back to the spheres. I think for us, there is a trusting that God is gonna use that process to bring the right people in, live out their calling. Like mine is gonna be the church. It is. I have a neighborhood thing, a little neighborhood, it's nothing near what the church thing is. Other people will be opposite. But I think we have to, it puts us in a position where we can trust God to sort that out and we don't have to feel like, again, it's another grab at control, right? That we can like.
Derek (30:01.421)
Yes.
Danielle (30:20.992)
stack the decks kind of for our ministry.
Yeah, and I think, one of the big, as you're talking about that, I think one of the big moments for us was multi-site. When there was like a little baby step toward this, even though it was creating another church, it did require this open-handed approach to our folks. And so it's like if our best worship leader at one site says, I think I'm going to the other site or I want to, of just going, we're going to be open-handed and trust that God is going to backfill.
Yeah, for sure.
Danielle (30:46.286)
What happened?
Derek (30:51.598)
some great people in these other people that we're releasing. I've been talking to a ton of pastors these days who are even for the first time in their ministry thinking about multiple services. Should we go from one service to two? I think that's a baby step toward this. Because there's this protective thing of like, don't want to lose what we have and we don't want, like we have this great thing or whatever of just going.
We need to, we need to release, we're not selfishly collecting all this stuff into one thing that we really love and like. There's a releasing, there's a sending that we have to have, you know, that we have to embrace. Because the whole great commission is this idea of people being sent, you know, so.
Yeah, yeah, that's good. Okay, six and then seven. Doers multiply activity, developers multiply impact. is from Shane Stacey. Yeah. Yeah, the thing for me that I think about with this is, you know, for so long, I think the thing that was like beat into our brains is this idea that like excellence is what drives ultimately what would
Time set. Time for set.
Danielle (32:03.714)
drive connection, drive attraction, would drive involvement, all the things. Engagement. Engagement. And it can, but in this mindset, it just matters so much less. like all that, if you can like multiply someone's impact or even just to, if your only thing is to show people that they do have impact, that they can multiply, that's way.
way, way bigger, way more important, way more lasting than was the light red or blue.
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I think about the difference between addition and multiplication, know, the whole, you know, doing it yourself is growth by addition, but when you develop other people, it's growth by multiplication.
Yep.
Danielle (32:54.082)
Yep, that's good. Yeah. And we can get a lot done, but...
Right. But we can't multiply unless other people are involved.
Seven, teach your people to value their ordinary platforms as much as the Sunday platform. Jamal Williams said that.
Yeah, first of all, I love that conversation that was just last week. But just this concept of there has been this mystery around reaching a Sunday morning pulpit, or if I can share my testimony on a Sunday morning, or if I can sing in the band or the choir on Sunday morning, or if I can preach or whatever on a Sunday morning, that that's the ultimate.
you know, and just the flipping that of going, everybody has a platform. Your platform is actually probably more valuable than the Sunday platform in terms of just your personal impact or how many people you could impact. And so I think just helping people to see that. And it is the sacred secular divide and all that kind of stuff that we've manufactured in our head. This is sacred space. This is secular space. And if we can help people
Derek (34:09.624)
bring the sacredness in them to the secular platforms that God has already given them. Man, that's where the gold is. that's the, I feel like that's the journey we're on. That's the journey that all of these churches that have spoken into this season are on. I've just gone, what does it mean to equip our people to seize their ordinary platform?
Yes.
Danielle (34:32.429)
Yeah, it makes me think of, I think this was Dave or Shane, they talked about taking something from like a stained glass to a plain glass place and that's training. So I hear, you know, Luke 11 on a Sunday, I'm sitting at a board meeting on a Wednesday, somebody says something, how can I take what I learned on Sunday, say it in plain language, it's way that's like, you're just.
Worst case scenario is you just look wise. But bringing that into those ordinary spaces. I think too, if it's not, I know it's exactly down the line, but even if you're not like, do I want to be on or in a platform on Sunday, there's also more power in leveraging your own platform in the world versus bringing somebody to watch somebody else use the Sunday platform.
That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's more lasting and more powerful, I think, if you can do it in your front yard or across the table. Great. Those are great. It's been a good season. choices, Derek. OK. OK. did it. All right. So all right. Let's move to Behind the Curtain. Some stuff has been happening, believe it or not. And we're still doing stuff. You can count on that.
Agreed.
Derek (35:39.505)
Mic drop moments.
Danielle (35:55.254)
We will always be doing something. So you were gone a little bit last week and a little bit. Yeah, last week. week. So you went to go see Larry Osborne and do some cool stuff. So you want to talk about that a little bit.
There was a little cohort. I got the opportunity to go out through the GLN to get in a room with him. So one of the regrets of my life is you'll know that one of my heroes of the faith was a guy, a writer, an author, a professor named Frederick Beekner. And I had told myself for a decade, because he was just over in, I think he was in Delaware, somewhere fairly close by where we...
Yeah!
Held office hours in his office every week at the college that he taught at I told myself for a decade I was gonna go see him just tell him the impact he's had on my life and and pick his brain about a couple things and and He died and I never did it Yeah, and it's just like what an idiot like so it was just kind of like one of those moments are like never again Yeah, am I gonna miss an opportunity to get in a room with somebody who's impacted me even if just to tell him Thank you and even just to say
Here's what you've meant to me. So Larry's one of those guys for me. And he's 73, he's been a pastor for 45 years at North Coast Church in California. I've read everything he's ever written. There's a simpatic, we think the same in some ways. What was his first? Sticky Teams, yeah, Sticky Teams. But he's written so much. I was reading his stuff before he even had books out, blog posts and whatever they were.
Danielle (37:09.186)
Yeah.
Danielle (37:21.986)
once.
Danielle (37:26.706)
yeah, of
That's cool.
Derek (37:33.838)
Actually funny, funny story. Like I was in a graduate class at Trinity in Chicago and was having some dysfunction on our elder team at the time. And I mentioned something to the professor and he's like, Larry, he had just written Sticky Team. So this was like 15, 16 years ago. And the professor at the time was like, you should call Larry Osborne. I'm like, yeah, right. Like, you know, I knew of him. knew of his books and stuff. And he's like, no, you should really call him. So I looked up his number.
I called his assistant just to set up a time. Okay, just like a set up 15 minutes with Larry Osborne. I got questions about Elders. He wrote a book about it. And she's like, yeah, just a second, I'll get them. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Like I had this moment of like, I'm not ready. I don't have my stuff together. Like it was just to set up an appointment. And he picked up the phone.
That's so cool. Like he picked up the phone? Yeah.
And he was so accessible. And that just started kind of a, yeah, I just really admire him. And so anyway, had the chance to go get in a room with him with a small cohort. Did get a, I requested a, I'm like, hey, can I ride with you? We were going to dinner. Can I ride with you in your car? And took the time to tell him what I wanted to, like, you know, tell him the reason I was there. So anyway.
Yeah, of course.
Derek (38:53.952)
So, so good. And he talked about this. Now, he's an extrovert and I'm not, but he talked about this and this as well as LCBC and it's just some other like cohort groups that I've been in. He talked about the guest experience, the guest system. When I came back, there was a pastor that came to talk to me two weeks ago and he asked me a question about grace. He said, what are the most important systems for a church to get?
Right. Yeah. And I've got a little list that I've talked about for years. guest system, the giving system. So like what happens with the first time giver? What happens with the second time giver?
Follow up
The baptism system. So for us, how do people get baptized, saved, that sort of thing. Discipleship system, leadership system. So I think those are kind of the key. We need to have good systems around all those things. We're in a bit of upheaval right now, but we're recreating a lot of those systems. But when Larry started talking about his guest system, it made me come back to, my gosh, we still need to rethink this in our new structure. What does it look like for them? He, every six weeks.
met with 40 of their guests in his home on Sunday afternoon, every six weeks for 40 whatever years. And, part of it is like, that's why their church grew from all those. LZBC, they still, to this point, it's like a 20,000 person church. To this day, they have teams that go out and drop off a bag of homemade cookies, homemade chocolate chip cookies.
Danielle (40:20.62)
Whoa!
Danielle (40:24.942)
argue with.
Derek (40:37.982)
on the front porch of every single first time guest to their church. And they've been doing it for like, as long as Dave Ashcraft and it's like, there are those things, you know, we're so.
No, would I answer the door? I would not. But fine.
But it just reminds me of this, like, that process, that system up front is so crucial. And Larry said something that really caught my attention. He goes, most churches stop at first time guests. He goes, second time guests are way more important than first time guests. He's like, because first time guests, you get the people who are in from out of town, you know, they're never coming back. You want to be nice to them. You want to do nice things for them. But like, they're not as in somebody who came back to your church a second time. That's a prospect.
That's somebody that's very interested in what you're doing. That's somebody you want to find out what brought you back a second time. So he's like, if that process doesn't extend at least to the second guess, you don't have a process because those are the important. So anyway, it just re fired me up for. We need to be very diligent about it, even in a, you know, even the shift we're making to a more missional and we're not an attraction church. There's still people coming.
You're good for it. Yeah, that's good.
Danielle (41:37.39)
That makes sense.
Danielle (41:50.84)
Yeah. Yeah.
and what are we doing to help make sure our guests feel welcomed, understand who we are, what we're about, all that kind of stuff. So anyway, this is just like a little plug for good systems, a little plug for Larry Osborne. But yeah, was really a good challenge.
That's really cool. was just recently, it was in a church marketing discussion and somebody, I can't remember who the person was, shoot, I'll try to look it up. But basically they were saying like, focusing, it's kind of what you're saying, but like focusing on the first time guests, the first time they're in on a Sunday and you're like, fill out this card to get connected. They're not there to do that at all. They're there to be like,
Seeking
Danielle (42:38.208)
Is everyone cool? Am I cool? Am I gonna get struck by lightning? They're not thinking about. I really wish I could find an affinity group. No, it's the person that comes back again, or again and again. And we do put a lot of stock in that first time thing. But that's good, that's really.
Is the roof about the camera?
Derek (42:59.63)
Yeah, it was just a good reminder. I think in the multiplication funnel invention that we're doing, we still can't forget about this assimilation funnel because that's still a thing. You know, there's still people coming, especially these days. And here's one other thing I want to say that Larry talked about. We're in a moment right now in our culture and our history as a church. And it was interesting to hear, he's been around for so long. He came to Christ through the Jesus movement, like,
Yes.
Danielle (43:18.062)
Yeah.
Derek (43:28.974)
Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith. He was in that church. He met with Chuck Smith early in his, like, the movie that they made about the whole, he was on those beaches, like, that's where he accepted Christ. He's been through this, like, one of these revival moments before. One of the funny things he said, he's like, you think the politics are bad now? He's like, we think there's a new thing. But then it was just, it was the Vietnam War and all the old guard in the church were...
you know, didn't think we ever thought we needed to be in the war. All these young punks coming in thought we didn't need it. And there was riots and revolutions and all kinds of stuff going on. And he's like, it was the same old crap. It was just a different issue. that was funny. but, but he said, I asked him about, you know, the, the moment we're in, it does feel Gen Z is coming back to church and the Bible sales are up and like, we're hearing all the statistics of like, there is a little bit of a, and
He said, he's been talking about for five years. He's sensed the, he meets with tons of pastors and he has had a sense for five years. And he said, within this last year, it's like, God has broken and it's happening. So, you know, my question, he's been through this once before. What, how do we respond to that moment? He said, he said two things. First of all, it's short lived.
Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle (44:46.03)
Mm-hmm.
Danielle (44:52.866)
Yeah.
He's like, it's going to last for three years or five years at the most. This is not a forever thing. You, have a moment in time and if we have it right now, we have it right now. And he, yeah. And so he, the thing, what he said, we need to seize the day. We need to go with it. We need to go get souls. Souls are ready to be got that like go get them and put your three and five and 10 year plans on hold and do this now because we have this moment in time.
Interesting.
Danielle (45:19.906)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
So it was just a good, that's just for free. nothing to do with anything else on this podcast, but I feel like I was so inspired by it. I think of needs to be said of just like, it's not make believe. We're living through something we prayed for.
Yes, and other people have prayed for. other people have prayed for for a long time. It's definitely happening, it's no question. Yeah. No question. Wow, that's cool.
So, and some grandmother's been praying for a kid that's in your backyard or in your community that she's been praying for 20 years since this kid was born that he would come to Jesus. And you might just be the answer to that grandma's prayer, know, your church can, so anyway.
That's good, that's really good. Okay, let's close out with tips and tools. recently, well, we have for a long time been encouraging our pastors on staff to take half-day retreats on a regular basis. And we just recently opened that up to our whole staff. And so you have a tool here for how to kind of best leverage a half-day personal retreat. I think this would be good for anybody. Yeah, that's great.
Derek (46:28.448)
Absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know, people have benefited. We, we, I lived for a long time under kind of the, the mega church mode. was like, we don't pay people to have their spiritual lives on our staff and other people, right? You know, other people live their lives and they don't get a paid half day retreat. Why should we, as the church do that for our people? And I've come around to go,
I feel that.
Derek (46:55.692)
because we're responsible for the spiritual lives of lots of other people and we probably should. We should probably make sure that our leaders are at least doing this. And so we've told them they can take company time and use it for half day retreat every so often.
Yeah.
Danielle (47:09.622)
It's like if you, like in the workplace, you send a secretary to get better at Excel. It's, you're yourself.
Exactly. Yeah, it's a training. So anyway, I created a little tool around this and I will include the tool for everybody who gets the email distribution, but it's basically just give some things about how you be, what to do before you begin, what the retreat is not. So it's not work. It's not a Bible study marathon necessarily. It's not one sided and it's not catch up time. know, where
I'm going to use this to go get caught up on my stuff. Listen, can be. It's a attempt. So basically the tool is around eight creative half day retreat ideas. Cool. And so, you know, there's a Bible study retreat, there's a personal planning retreat, there's a prayer and silence retreat. One of my favorites is a creative retreat. You'll appreciate this. So where it engages your hands in your imagination. So, you know, choose a medium. So people bring a musical instrument or write a song or write a
it can be. just saying, like, that's hard.
Derek (48:12.43)
poem or, you know, so anyway, there's eight ideas like that with a little bit of build out around each one about how to build a half day around that particular idea. again, we're including it in the email, something that our team has been using for a little bit, but open it up to others.
Love it, it's really good, love it. Okay, that is it for today and that is it for a bit. For a next fall. Next fall? Yep. Oh cool, okay, great.
You're just finding out about that.
That sounds awesome. I thought it was gonna be the spring
No, I think we're I'm heading out on a little sabbatical this year. So yeah, I'm gonna be out of pocket for a bit
Danielle (48:49.521)
that's right.
So probably next fall. Okay, cool. All right. Okay. Well, if you like this episode, you like the season, please rate it, share it, pass it around while we're not around. That'd be awesome. You can catch up on what you've missed if you want to as well. You can find, like Derek said, detailed show notes or related resources at derickstanford.com forward slash reinventing church. That's where you can also subscribe to that weekly newsletter.
He'll be doing stuff with that newsletter throughout even though we're not you know doing a Podcast so there'll be tools and posts coming through there on a regular basis Thanks for joining us You're welcome yeah, bye everybody bye