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Interviews with amazing people making things happen across the world of digital media.
New episodes every Thursday.
Mike (00:02.53)
Our guest this week is the founder of Playmaker. He started this digital media company and grew it to be a social media behemoth with over 70 employees. They actually own the Instagram handle at sports, which I can't wait to ask you about this. We'll get into that. I don't even understand how you could have gotten that, but hopefully we can learn in this. They went from making memes to working with A -list athletes like Shaq and Jalen Brunson.
He then sold his company for over $50 million. That's a nice chunk of change. So let's welcome Del Boca's own Brandon Harris.
Brandon Harris (00:39.492)
Thanks Mike, I'm happy to be on man. I'm a big fan of the podcast so far and frankly, like I'll tell a quick story if that's cool, but like Mike really was a key part of my turning point with PlayMaker and we were kind of all memes and Instagram and ads and kind of a bottom feeding media company. And then I went to Mike and pitched him about a thousand snap videos and snap shows and.
Mike (00:48.29)
Of course.
Brandon Harris (01:07.748)
Finally, he let one through and that was kind of the beginning of our content empire and totally changed the trajectory of the company in my life. So always be grateful to Mike.
Mike (01:18.274)
Well, no problem, but truth be told, you had a good pitch. So like, I think like whoever was sitting in my seat probably would have said yes. you know, because you guys said that was the Nate Robinson show, right? That was like the first thing that we sort of did together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember. no, that was, and we'll, we'll get into the, I want to talk about Shaq. I want to talk about playmaker. I want to talk about the acquisition. I want to talk about at sports, that.
Brandon Harris (01:34.532)
Yeah, road to the fight with Nate Robinson.
Mike (01:48.226)
had somehow you guys own that, which is crazy. But the, you know, like going from memes, like you said, right? You know, memes are, drive so much engagement across social, right? And you guys are sitting there looking at it and you're, you're jumping in, you guys have these massive followings across lots of different handles, across lots of different platforms. But so why then did you sort of go, was there a point where you go,
this isn't enough, like we need to be doing more than just memes. And like, what did that look like?
Brandon Harris (02:24.036)
Yeah, I think very easy to stagnate when your content has no value. You have no moat or whatever and there's a pretty low ceiling. And I think we encountered that pretty early on where we weren't growing much despite our audience continuing to grow and all of that. There just wasn't that much revenue opportunity. There was nothing scalable about the memes. And so like in my world originally, it was like, does this engage? Does this gain followers? And it was black and white. And if it engaged, it gained followers.
We did so much more of it and if it didn't, we didn't. But then I learned, like, that's just not, that's cool for the social handles and it's cool like in general, but the gray is where the money is and the gray is where you can break through and not be seen as like the junkie meme peddler and you can kind of, you can get real partners, real sponsors, but you had to kind of get away from the lowest common denominator or whatever engages.
Mike (03:21.474)
So that, it's such an interesting topic for me and one that I did not expect to start this interview with, but it's actually a really interesting conversation of like memes and it's almost like memes are like a great way to like start a media company. And then at some point you have to like kind of evolve towards a higher quality. Would you describe Playmaker as like that sort of thing?
Brandon Harris (03:47.492)
100 % and I think it's very common and I've seen really smart people, much smarter people than myself really struggle to take that next step. Like they become these incredible like audience builders and then they can't figure out what to do with the audience and I think that's where thankfully Snap.
ended up being giving us the kind of the income and the momentum to really invest in content and figure that out. But I think if I, if we hadn't had that breakthrough snap, I might still be memes and like a very small, like 10 person team or something.
Mike (04:29.378)
so cool. Well, you did do that. You put a good pitch in front of me. I said, yes, this is cool, which again, I think anybody would have done if they were in my seat, if they were doing their job. But now you guys, you know, you're in the phase of where you're working with a list athletes. I want to kind of start there. You know, for every anyone that's listening playmaker produces Shaquille O 'Neal's podcast, the big podcast. The last time I checked it is.
was number six on the charts of Apple podcasts. I didn't look at Spotify or any of the other platforms, but that's pretty awesome. Consider there's a billion podcasts, including this one for you guys to be number six in sports is fantastic. So I guess, like, I want to go through every bit of this because I think it's so interesting. How did you guys link up with Shaq? Sort of how did, how did you know you guys working with Shaq and his team on the big podcast sort of start?
Brandon Harris (05:27.14)
Yeah, I think I'll go back to just before acquisition. And now we have, let's call it 30 shows on Snap. But we're trying to figure out what's that next thing because, you know, the platform's always changed and we're kind of feeling like a ceiling is there on Snap. And we have this content machine and this awesome team. And now how do we, and this platform that we built, and now how do we take that and make something bigger and more premium? And.
so I had been in the market looking for podcasts with athletes for quite some time. and you know, the names that I was dealing with were what we could afford, right? It was like, you know, I won't, won't name drop people just because I think that would be rude in this context, but I think in general, like you can imagine backup point guards and, you know, people who are cool, fun, great personalities, but not.
not the same star power. And I think sitting in a boardroom with the Better Collective leadership, the first ever meeting after our acquisition, I had a deck made with like, here are some athletes I'd like to target. Here is like the strategy. Here's how we'll monetize it. Here's how many views I think we'll get. Here's all these things. And to my surprise, they were all like,
let's do it, let's go as big as you possibly can. And I'm like, that's awesome. I want Shaq, Carmelo, Duane Wade. They're like, hold it, hold it, pick one. But Shaq was at the top of the list. And it just so happened that his contacts and his representatives over at Authentic Brands Group were close with some of the people we worked with over at Silver Tribe, Dave Katzman and...
Mike (06:51.946)
You
Brandon Harris (07:08.068)
So we had already kind of, we had very close relationships there and both sides knew of each other, but we were able to, I got the green light then and we got very serious right away with like, okay, we can really do this. We can really get the budget that you expect and deserve. We have the sales team now and the bandwidth. And so.
let's do this and I think they immediately felt like we were the right fit too. They had felt like in the past maybe they hadn't gotten the same social support that they would want, maybe they hadn't gotten you know basically like the entertainment value that that a Shaq show should have and so we felt and presented that we could do exactly that and I think they immediately appreciated that.
Mike (07:56.738)
Yeah, you mentioned so for for all the listeners, the shack had his own podcast. You guys sort of like took it over, rebranded it and remade it. Right. So what is the biggest difference? Like what what is the last and the last iteration wasn't as successful as this one, it seems like to me from the outside and without, you know, trashing people who used to work on it or any of that. What is what would you say is the biggest reason for why like
That one wasn't working as well and this one is number six on the sports charts on Apple.
Brandon Harris (08:32.292)
I think dedicating the resources and structuring it as a partnership and now Shaq has upside equity incentive to really give his full Shaqness to the show. And I think like it was a remote pod mostly in the past. It was like a pod of convenience. It was like a deliverable on a contract. And now it's like, this is our baby that we're building kind of thing. And I think that's where it started first and foremost. And like,
Obviously Turner and Bleacher is an incredible media brand and company and they have all the resources in the world but they are more focused on their TV shows and things like that. Their sports rights and much bigger things and we can give our full 100 % force and attention to these athlete pods because it's our number one priority. So that's I think the biggest difference.
Mike (09:27.266)
Yeah, that that's so interesting. I'm I want to talk more broadly about athletes and content in a second. And that let's put a pin in that and come back to it. But the fact that you have Shaq, the fact that it's doing very well, you guys have really cool guests on. People are saying interesting things and the show is contributing to like the national sports conversation. You know, I feel like lately every couple of days because I'm a loser and I watch first take and.
you know, FS one all the time, because I used to work on those shows. and because I'm entertained by them, if I'm being completely honest, but I'll look up and I'll see a clip from the show. what is that like for you and the team to know that you guys are, you're popping up on those shows and sort of being like the, the peg for a big national sports conversation.
Brandon Harris (10:20.964)
I mean, I think to me it's just mission success. It means like we are doing a good job of like planning, of getting viral moments out, of distributing it, making sure that it's seen by the right people, making sure that like, I think it's, you can't buy that marketing. You know, it's like the, it's an absolutely incredible asset to the show and to the brand and our logo is all over ESPN all the time, all over.
every network pretty much. And so, like I couldn't have bought my way into that, you know? and so I think, I think it's a, it's a testament to like the producer. It's a testament to Shaq. It's a testament to, our talent booking and the guests we've been able to get. And, Adam Lefkoe, the cohost gets a lot of really great clips and segments and moments out of people. And I think we're really tapped in with the, with what people want to talk about and, and.
There's a difference between what the actual sports fan wants and what ESPN thinks they want, I think. But I think we understand what ESPN thinks they want and I think we understand what they actually want and I think we're able to deliver both. And so it works.
Mike (11:36.834)
Yeah, no, I mean, to me, and we've talked about this on this show a lot. One of the biggest differences in content now versus 30 years ago, say, is there's a lot more just like sources for voices to emerge, right? Back then it was, you know, you had the cable channels. ESPN was probably the only like, and maybe like some other regional sports networks and things, but there was not a lot of options for like 24 hour sports coverage, right? It was pretty much ESPN.
Wasn't a whole lot more than that. and you think about now where it's pretty much an unlimited pool of voices that like emerge. So it's just fascinating that now you have the voices emerging from the digital space, like playmaker. Now Shaq is obviously like a legend and, you know, very established in the media and otherwise, but still you guys come in and are contributing to that conversation is just like a sign of the times. And I think it's smart by ESPN to be.
pulling from that, right? You know, why not? It just makes their show better.
Brandon Harris (12:40.9)
Yeah, and if you look at viewership numbers and things like the Shaq podcast is not, obviously it's not on every day, but the per episode average is probably not crazy different than like First Take or some of the shows. And so it actually benefits them in many cases when they are posting that Shaq and Draymond Green call out Stephen A. Smith and they're promoting their show along with our show. And it makes a lot of sense for everybody. And,
Yeah, I think you nailed it. And now I'm rambling, but I think it's an amazing time to be a source of information and hot takes.
Mike (13:24.738)
Absolutely. I love that. The hot take continues to evolve, doesn't it? And it will never stop evolving. So, Shaq is like the best. I've always been such a huge fan of his. He's almost more known now as like a media personality, right? It's crazy what he's been able to do. He's like a businessman slash media personality. He's like one of the most successful athlete conversion into.
you know, post -athlete life, right? Like obviously Michael Jordan and you know, there's, there's some others on that list, but Shaq's gotta be on the list of like one of the best at it. so like podcasting, you mentioned that he now has a lot of upside and he's very invested for, and you guys have incentivized him and his team correctly, which is very interesting. Where does he want to take this? Like what is, what are his ambitions on the media side? Does he want to have, I know, you know, there's a couple, he's got a couple of podcasts in the big podcast network, which.
which is a very cool idea and interesting. So like where does he wanna go? Do you have insight into what he's thinking about for like his media career?
Brandon Harris (14:29.861)
Well, I think he's already kind of well underway and he views it and him and his team view it as he's basically diversified and crushing.
every industry except for content as an owner. And obviously he makes great content. But he doesn't monetize it to the same level that he does these other industries like you touched on. I mean, his schedule is the craziest thing I've ever had to navigate. He's flying here for a commercial shoot. He's flying here to open a franchise. He's flying. It's sometimes three different cities in the same day. It's like it's an absolute nightmare sometimes from my perspective, but it's like,
It's incredibly impressive what he dedicates to his business life and everything. He's just like a monster. But going back to kind of like Shaq and his ambitions, he's already making a lot of great documentaries. He's doing a lot of content. He's doing an AI documentary with his company and Steph Curry's company. He's doing these podcasts. He's doing a few other documentaries. He's like into hip hop.
and various content endeavors in hip -hop. So I think what we'll see is like probably if as long as the TV stuff continues like he's gonna need to dedicate a huge portion of his time to that when he doesn't have that or if he doesn't have that in the future then he's likely to spin up an incredible amount of content in the form of documentary shows and hip -hop stuff.
Mike (16:08.77)
You mentioned the TV side of things. So I will ask, as everybody is watching the NBA rights discussion play out, the musical chairs, that is the NBA rights portfolio after the 2025 season, does he think that it's coming back? Like what, you know, and inside, I'll just set it up a little more for, for the listeners. Shaq is on Inside the NBA, which is, you know, critically acclaimed.
You know, NBA show on TNT. they do the pregame halftime post game all year. And then especially in the playoffs, it's to show that Charles Barkley is on it constantly is going viral, largely considered the best sports pre post halftime kind of shoulder programming offering that exists across all sports. and, but now it is looking like TNT may not be getting the rights to the NBA back. as NBC sort of has put in this massive bid to.
to try to like grab their chair. Amazon's rumored to be one of the players, ESPN likely to come back as the major player, as like the number one rights holder for the package. All along with saying this show that a lot of people really love inside the NBA may not, their future is in jeopardy, right? If they don't get the rights back, does this show come back? Probably not. So do you know where Shaq's head is at with all this stuff? I know they have one more season.
TNT has the rights for one more season. But then after that, where is his head at with Inside the NBA?
Brandon Harris (17:44.356)
so i i first i'm gonna say agreed on inside the nba being the best of the best i think shack loves it and indicates like an extreme amount of time to just about every tuesday and thursday or whatever the schedule is basically entire day is blocked off for prepping getting ready and we also i know it's a he's massively invested in the show and the success of the show and he's been doing it for what ten twenty years something crazy and so
I know that like he would not like it to end. I know that he at one point even said to what the magic owner, he was like, if you, whenever you're ready to sell me the team, while we get off TNT, I'll come run the team. and so I think he used that as like his main kind of day to day gig, right? So I think, it's his priority. I think him and Barkley and the rest of the team are like, they have.
they're looking at external sources in the same way we are. I think they have no or very limited additional information. And so I think it is a nerve wracking time. I think he's like extra specially motivated to deliver great content over the playoffs. And I don't think he knows. I don't think he has any sort of final answer, basically.
Mike (19:08.098)
So interesting. If the rumors are true and it's sort of like there's one more year, next year's inside the NBA is gonna be unbelievable. It'll be can't miss TV all year. I don't know if you've ever had a show like that with that kind of credibility in the space and impact in the culture. Like have like a lame duck season. It's almost like when you're watching the final season of Game of Thrones, right?
And everybody is like, Ooh, this is the last season, you know, like the last season of Inside the NBA would be such a massive deal. You're right. It's been on forever. You also have, you know, Amazon, right? Is, is rumored to be there. They, they haven't been afraid to spend money on talent for their, for their shows. You know, if you look at their deal with Al Michaels and Herb street. so it wouldn't, it wouldn't shock me if they, if that whole thing just kind of lifts and moves to a new home, you know, like I, I don't know if, if you're NBC or Amazon.
Maybe not as much ESPN, but if you're NBC or Amazon, I don't understand why you wouldn't do that unless ego got in the way. Cause an executive wanted to put his, his or her own spin on the rights package. Other than that, I don't, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to do that. So it'd be fascinating to see where that goes. I hope that it sticks around in some form and it would also be really interesting if those four guys just sort of like created and did it themselves and sold it to someone, right? Rather than it be a.
an NBC or an Amazon production.
Brandon Harris (20:39.012)
Yeah, I saw Barkley said that he wants to do that. I think the problem with that is that Barkley wants to do it. Shaq wants to do it. Ernie might want to do it. Maybe it's a joint venture, but yeah, it's a lot of mouths to feed and those guys aren't cheap and deservedly so. So I think it.
It's a tough one to think through, but hopefully it lives on. I'm not sure that Turner losing rights is necessarily the end of the show. I mean, we'll see.
Mike (21:10.146)
So speaking of things changing, you guys launched a show with Jalen Brunson and Josh Hart. Incredible last six months for Jalen Brunson, right? He has been a great player and a rising star in the league now for some time. But to me as an observer, especially during the playoffs, I mean, his status and his star power grew like 100x.
You know, like the, like the things he was doing in the playoffs were unbelievable. And it's sort of like, he sort of like arrived on the scene in many respects. I think a lot of people would say, I don't know if he's at the level yet where like my wife knows who he is. I'm pretty sure she doesn't, but he is a household name in sports community, no doubt about it. And he wasn't that maybe six months ago. So I'm curious as you guys have sort of developed the roommate show out, how has life changed with that show?
Brandon Harris (21:47.172)
Yeah.
Mike (22:07.01)
pre because that show launched kind of like earlier this year or maybe at the end of last year. And into now now that he's like such a big star how has that changed life on the show how is it changed like you know is guestbooking way easier now are they like more into the show less into the show because jail and now got a 100 different obligations to track down how has life changed for the roommates show over the last 6 months.
Brandon Harris (22:12.516)
Yeah.
Brandon Harris (22:33.028)
Yeah, I mean, you touched on one thing. Talent booking is the easiest of any show. And every New York celebrity or current or former Nick...
really wants to be on the show. It's like, we honestly don't even need a dedicated talent booker for it. I mean, we have it anyway, but it's like, it's incredibly easy. Like Ben Stiller wants to be on, Tracy Morgan wants to be on. The names that we get are just easier and it's a lot different than the other shows. I think Jalen and Josh are, I think they've grown to really love it. Like I think they appreciate the flow. I think they've enjoyed the creative outlet. I think it's been really good for their brand.
And I think they appreciate that. And Josh in particular had already had a podcast, like he was already into this, but Jalen, I think has really enjoyed it. I think he wasn't sure what to expect. And I think he's very happy with it. And so.
I will also say like from a sponsorship and partnership perspective, that's been the easiest show. I think it doesn't hurt that ad agencies and big brands are based in New York and that he's a New York talent. But I think you touched on the moment and playoffs and we were selling out full giant bar venues for watch parties where the guys weren't even showing up because of the community that was built there and like.
The Roommate Social is the best social of any show we have. It's just so incredibly rabid and engaged. And it's been really crazy and fun. So I think that's how it's changed. I think it's been really, really appreciated by Nick's fans. And I think Jalen has had the opportunity to show off more of his personality. And I think it's just been a total win win for all parties.
Mike (24:19.009)
Yeah, I'll say, that's so great. They, so we were just talking about Shaq, a former player forever in sports talk. It was sort of like, you play in the NBA and then after the NBA, you get into media. And now obviously with Jalen and obviously Draymond green and I'm in a bunch of these other athlete driven and current athlete driven podcasts. that line is clearly not.
Like athletes are now looking to that much sooner while they're still playing. What it as a creator of these shows and someone that has done both of them and is currently doing both of those sort of things, working with a former player versus working with a current player. wait, what is the difference there? You know, do you find that the former players are a little more willing to say stuff because they're not in the league anymore and they don't have to worry about, they don't have to be worried about, you know, getting hip checked if they say the wrong thing on a podcast, you know, as they drive to the lane or whatever.
Or like, you know, do the current athletes not care about any of that stuff? What is the difference between the former player and the current player when it comes to making a show?
Brandon Harris (25:26.212)
Yeah, I think from just a level of unfilteredness, I think the retired guys also have jobs to think about and they're not guaranteed contracts in many cases, right? And so they might actually be a little more sensitive about and careful about their brands than the active guys. But I will say, I think they're all.
somewhat measured. I think they all have the ability and they understand this to cut out and disapprove a lot of the stuff where they cross the line accidentally or whatever. So I think there's not a huge difference to me on that. I think there is a difference around like, for example, sports books are not super comfortable or used to working with shows that include active players. And it's definitely easier to speak to and sell through.
a retired athlete who can kind of say whatever they want. And there's like things like that with like certain NBA partnerships with certain like exclusive deals that active guys have that like, like for example, Nike or whatever that retired guys probably don't have. And, but I would say the downside of the retired is like, you don't have the same connection to the fan base or like relevance in terms of what they're doing on the court, off the court. Like the guys.
The Knicks fans will be so pumped to hear about what was Jalen's mentality in this playoff game? What's his injury status? What's this? You don't have the same kind of buzz and excitement for the retired guys. It's like what did Shaq have for breakfast? It's not quite as sexy or interesting to the fan base. So I would say there's pros and cons to both. I think like merch is easier with active guys also, like for pretty obvious reasons and like.
selling tickets and things. I think there's more benefits with active guys from that perspective, but I think there's more freedom for more brands. There's technically more time in theory, like not in Shaq's case, but like in theory, a retired guy would have more time. But I think in general, I think they're both great. I think it's kind of more on a case by case, like who's the better talent, like who is more electric. That's usually driving the decision.
Mike (27:39.81)
That's so interesting because you're right. It does seem like a lot of these current athletes are getting out there and saying crazy things on these podcasts in a way that feels very freewheeling, right? Like Micah Parsons on his podcast is like always saying something that like we talked about ends up on the shows. you know, the Cowboys tend to be a topic of conversation on those shows. but then you, you had like CJ Stroud, right? Like reacting to the NFL draft as it was happening.
Brandon Harris (28:01.924)
Yeah.
Mike (28:08.77)
That's just not a thing that existed five years ago, 10 years ago at all. You know, and he was, he was saying some stuff that was, you know, that you could classify as bulletin board material.
Brandon Harris (28:20.452)
And I think a lot of them like look at Pat Bev and look at Draymond and like, I think that's, if you are comfortable expressing your actual real authentic takes and thoughts, like it does perform better period. And a discussion like it just is better content. And some guys, they know the line and they're very careful. And some guys are like, I'm going all in on this. And I know that if I say what I really think, it's gonna go crazy viral. And...
And those are the ones we obviously prefer to work with, but like, you got to respect, like, you're not their main partner. You're not their only partner. Like they, you have to respect that they, they have shit to lose, right? So you, you also kind of, it's a fragile balance from our perspective.
Mike (29:07.074)
So do you think it's like, we were talking about incentives before, right? So at least in media circles, the idea behind a lot of athletes being on these shows was that they were gonna kind of come on. It's great to hear from them, but they're gonna be very like buttoned up, very much PR speak, right? Not necessarily the most exciting. They're just trying not to make a mistake with the media. Do you think the reason why that's changing is because they're incentivized?
to be more authentic? Like, you know, when you're like, when they are the owners of their own content, the engagement in their performance has direct benefit to them versus in the past. Is that the reason why we're seeing a lot more personality from these athletes, these current athletes as they're making content?
Brandon Harris (29:56.26)
I think it's that and then I think it's just like they're, they've seen it done. they know it works, right? Like I think being the first person, first athlete to do it and test the waters and like put out a hot take about LeBron and put out a hot take about this person.
That's scary, right? And now they've seen Draymond do it. They've seen Pat Bev do it. They've seen like so many people do it. And they know there's probably not a consequence. Like probably the worst thing that will come of this is maybe they get a quiet message from their GM or maybe they get some fans complaining or maybe they get a public tweet that's negative or whatever. But typically they understand like the consequences are not severe to like sharing a take. And so...
I think it's that coupled with the, hey, I want the show to do better. So I'm going to do it now. And like, so it is the incentive portion, but I think it's also like the normalization of authenticity.
Mike (30:53.858)
Yeah, it's almost like as there's been so many more takes and like our general attention spans are much less that the risk is also lower to saying something crazy, right? I guess that's true across like most of social, but in a weird way, that amount of volume of takes and of just controversial things that are happening every day almost allows you like more free speech, you know?
because you don't care if something is bad and goes over poorly, it'll be forgotten in a day or two.
Brandon Harris (31:28.26)
Yeah, and I think that that's another thing with the athlete pods is it becomes a, it's like a process where they start to feel more and more comfortable. They're like, I said this thing and now I'm getting these really mean DMs and I'm not going to say anything for the next two episodes. And then they're like, wait.
This is just kind of par for the court. This is okay. I can actually say it's just some like Twitter bots and it's not a big deal. And then over time, they now they're really kind of like coming into their own. It's a, I think definitely, definitely are able to be totally free with their takes. And I think when they are.
like we appreciate that until they, until or unless they like lose all credibility. Like there's some people that go a little too far. There's definitely a balance, but like, I think we would all much prefer to get some real stuff than like, well -crafted PR messaging.
Mike (32:25.25)
Absolutely. Okay, so shifting gears a little bit, Playmaker, okay? So if you missed the intro at the top of the show, Brandon is the founder of Playmaker. Why don't you just give us an overview of what Playmaker is and just sort of talk about like why you started it in the first place.
Brandon Harris (32:47.716)
Playmaker, and I've had this like memorized boilerplate for like five years and it's changed so much. But it's a Playmaker is really a sports media platform that is focused on athlete storytelling. It mostly in the form of podcasts, video podcasts and custom content and documentary style stuff. But it's a platform with 25 mil plus.
Mike (32:56.258)
Yeah.
Brandon Harris (33:16.42)
followers across all socials 30 plus shows on snap for athlete podcasts and events merch Pretty much a full service partner on these podcasts
Mike (33:30.594)
Okay, and then so that's what it is right now, right? So give us what that line was five years ago. Like how would you have answered that question five years ago?
Brandon Harris (33:34.916)
Yeah.
Brandon Harris (33:40.004)
Yeah.
Yeah, it was like, first it was like Playmaker has this many followers and that's it. And then it was like, Playmaker is a media management and merchandise company with this many athletes, 50 plus athletes under management and this and that. And then it was a media management company, no merch, and it was 35 shows on Snap. And so it just was constantly kind of tweaking with.
Mike (33:47.746)
Yeah.
Brandon Harris (34:09.892)
what was working and what was resonating in the market.
Mike (34:14.146)
Yeah. So, okay. So we got like a little bit of a sense of how it has evolved and has obviously evolved many times. Were there some key points along the way that were like, you know, we, you talked a little bit about Snap. You don't have to give me any more credit. I've had plenty. What are some other like evolution points along the way, like critical moments that sort of like unlock new doors or like pushed you in a certain direction that ultimately led to the acquisition?
Brandon Harris (34:43.524)
Yeah. I think the two other big things that come to mind right now. so like, let's say memes and big network, let's say now snap breakthrough, and shows we, as part of the, based on the show's success with Nate Robinson, wrote in the fight. I, we then acquired the talent management company who we did the deal with to get the Nate Robinson show.
And so that was, we brought on Polo Kerber. We built kind of a talent management company with 50 plus athletes. Some of the other people were like Mario Chalmers at the time, Carlos Boozer, Xavier Howard, a lot of NBA, NFL, and then eventually NIL as that was.
kind of come into life. And I think the initial vision was like, A, like more brands are gonna come in our door inbound as a result of being connected with these athletes. We're gonna be able to go and make content with these athletes. We're gonna be able to do merch with these athletes. And so that was a big turning point for us and really got us kind of bigger into the community with athletes and allowed us to.
really hone our skills with like working with athletes, with monetizing athletes, learning the downsides and different things like that. And so that was a great turning point. And then around the same time we launched a betting division. And that was really just, let's call it two people and a social media manager. Like it wasn't like a massive investment, but.
At the time it felt big and we started covering odds and our goal was like, we don't want to give picks because we were going to piss off 50 % of the people basically with any pick. And you know, you're going to end up losing, you're going to end up costing people money. So like rather than do what everyone else is doing, let's go and like celebrate the fun of betting. And that was our spiel. And so we were like,
Brandon Harris (36:41.124)
doing no picks forever, even though that was what everyone wanted to sponsor and what drove affiliate revenue. And so just kind of covering fun betting content and trying to work with more sports books. We got a really cool points bet partnership that was like two years of really, really good money and fun content and kind of continue to invest there. But I think those are, if I had to put it all together, I think those are kind of on the timeline of it was like built platform with memes.
Then it was like, started doing short form content with Snap and really building that aggressively. Started working with athletes acquired talent management company. And then it was like launched betting division to help kind of bring sports books into the fold.
Mike (37:29.698)
so wow, because it sounds like four or five different companies, doesn't it?
Brandon Harris (37:34.436)
It really honestly is and was and that would be, we bought a talent company that existed. It was a real company, you know? And then the betting division was like a siloed team of like small team, but like basically ran independently. And then the snap team basically ran independently. And then there was kind of like a core team. So we've kind of always been...
And initially that was probably one of my biggest mistakes early on was that I was always jumping at every opportunity and I got shiny object syndrome and it's like, he's doing good at this. All right, we're doing this again. And so I think I learned to kind of be a little more strategic with that, but we, we pretty much were spinning off many startups underneath the umbrella.
Mike (38:19.586)
Yeah, let's I can we go back to the no betting or the no picks thing again? Are you doing picks now? Have you changed on that? Or are you still no picks?
Brandon Harris (38:24.164)
Yeah.
Brandon Harris (38:32.484)
You know what's funny, man? We got acquired by the world's largest affiliate in the betting space and we don't really do anything in betting. We actually kind of like, we do much less than before we were acquired. So we don't really cover it in the same way. We still don't do picks. Like will we one day? Maybe like, I imagine we put our own athlete spin on it and you know.
Mike (38:44.514)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Brandon Harris (39:02.244)
kind of it'd be their picks or, you know, their analysis, but we've kind of like, we've let the experts handle the betting and we're kind of within the BC universe where we're like the premium athlete storytelling brand in there and we kind of let them focus on the betting stuff.
Mike (39:21.986)
It's just, I'm just thinking, I'm not sure if I knew that you guys had made that call, but like the idea of starting a sports betting operation or like a content operation and not in do not doing picks and predictions and you know, advice on picks because I think in the sports gambling media space, that feed, that definitely feels like the majority of it. Right. So for you guys to come in and sort of have a different take on that is really interesting.
Like how, like, so you were getting pressure on that from sponsors and probably some fans wanted you to do it, although maybe not, maybe not as many as you think, but like, yeah, like how did you guys stay away from that? It's such a, like a, I dunno, it's such an interesting position to take.
Brandon Harris (40:09.892)
Yeah, it was tough. It was like, you almost have to be like, we're responsible gambling and like, we're like, we're making your brand fun. And we're like, we, you have to be so top of funnel with that approach because like, how are you actually going to get anyone to take action if you don't provide picks and analysis? It's kind of like.
It's like, look at the fun you could have. All right, well, like, go sign up with DraftKings. But like, what actually works and converts in this space is like, you give analysis and people are like, hmm, I like that. Like, I might actually bet, right? So we, it really honestly defied logic.
And I think we just like, I think if I could go back, I would have adjusted the positioning a little bit. But I think it was one of our, we brought in somebody who was very in the betting space and thought that this would be like a really fun way to zig while others are zagging kind of thing. And I think it, it, it resonated with a few people. And then I think there was probably a lot of people snickering, like what are these guys doing?
Mike (41:14.242)
Well, yeah, well, it's interesting because sports betting content is similar in many ways like fantasy football or fantasy sports content. And that most of the stuff that I see is it feels to me at least like it's more deepening engagement with the current fans and the current gamblers and the current fantasy players. And it's not focused on top of funnel. It's not focused on getting people in the door.
Brandon Harris (41:41.988)
Yeah.
Mike (41:42.53)
I always thought that like the league on FX back in the day, like was like an avenue of content that made so much sense that nobody was really doing enough of because I, I just like, I, I, I'm a casual fantasy player slash gambler, like, you know, not the most hardcore in either of those two spaces, but you know, do I want to be like grinding and listening to content and reading content about the waiver wire in fantasy? Like I have no desire to, I don't think that's interesting at all. And I don't think that, and I am a sports fan.
Brandon Harris (42:09.892)
Right.
Mike (42:12.194)
Like what about someone new? That is like a closed door style of content. That's like, if you're already in, you'll eat that up and you'll go super deep on it. And that's cool. And that's a viable model. But like if we wanna grow the space, like in sports in general, if we wanna grow this thing and make it popular with younger people, like it's gotta be, to me, I've always agreed with you guys in that sense, that it's gotta be.
more about culture and fun and it can't be like quote unquote nerdy, which, you know, if you talk to me, like as soon as you start hearing like betting lines on shows, it looks, it kind of looks intimidating to the casual, you know? It's just, it's not a very approachable thing. So I applaud you for trying that.
Brandon Harris (43:01.124)
Yeah, I think we, the problem is that you don't really capture anything top of funnel, right? So it's just like, I think from a partnership perspective, we're intriguing, but then it's like, what are you, are we just like, we're helping the industry at large pretty much. And so why does points bet want to pay us? So I think that was the flaw in our strategy, but I.
I think you're right and I personally like, I don't consume any of the advanced stuff myself and I definitely enjoyed what we were doing content wise a lot more than what I see out there but yeah, I think the problem is is like the economics of our approach just didn't make a lot of sense to part.
Mike (43:44.098)
Yeah. Okay. So getting back to better collective, the acquisition is what about a year ago that that happened like a little less than a year ago, July. So I want to talk a little bit about that. First of all, the super basic question is why did they acquire you? Right? Like when you were talking to them and they were like interested in you guys, like what was, why were they interested in playmaker?
Brandon Harris (43:53.156)
July. July's over. Yeah.
Brandon Harris (44:10.852)
I think they've made a transition in their goal from being the largest sports betting affiliate to being the world's largest sports media group. And I think they've viewed us as a good, complimentary, non -cannibalistic, healthy, profitable, fast -growing brand in the space. I think we just, as a piece, made a lot of sense. They've dominated.
that genre and they needed something kind of far in the opposite direction to kind of kick off their journey, bring the right experts into the fold, bring the right brands into the fold, like develop the strategy for them. And so I think they viewed us as not only.
affordable but like profitable in line in every way and then fully complimentary and I think they just really appreciated that like for example like I don't think snap shows I don't think they knew those existed before they started looking into us like I think they they were kind of blown away by the How we were making money and they didn't understand But those options were even there to them
Mike (45:22.37)
Interesting. The, so, okay, as you were talking to them and they're learning about you guys, they're learning how you're making money. They're learning about snap, which I always, when I was at snap and after snap, the process by which people learn about what's happening on snap is always fascinating. It's just like, it seems like there's a massive Delta between like the cultural relevancy of snap and the business community, like knowledge of snap, just a huge disconnect there that.
They've been working on that for years and I was there for some of that. But as you're going through that and they're like opening the hood and they're really getting to know you and the team, what was the most challenging part of the acquisition process?
Brandon Harris (46:05.828)
man, that was like the most stressful time of my life. I gained a bunch of pounds and I stopped getting my hair cut and all of that. But it was just constant. You're always worried, what's going to bother them? Yeah, I was just the head down. My wife understood. I was just here in the dark, just grinding all day. But it just was like...
Mike (46:22.658)
You stop getting your hair cut.
Mike (46:29.986)
You
Brandon Harris (46:33.732)
You never know, you never know what other people and they're not gonna, you know, give you their hand, right? So you never know like, is this gonna be a big problem? Are they gonna be like disturbed by this number? Are they gonna be concerned about this? Like, gosh, what if we have a bad month, like right when we're about to close, is that gonna scare them away? So you're just kind of like on top of everything. And then on top of that, I think people don't understand in general, like the due diligence process and like,
how insanely detailed and like time, time consuming that that was. It was just like, it was, if I didn't have Max Friedman, who was our CFO, I don't know if I would have been able to do all of that myself. That was just like piles and piles and piles of papers and things that we didn't have and had to create and just like.
I can't, I can't expect hundreds and hundreds of hours of work just to give them the information in order to say yes and no. Right. So you're actually investing, you're making quite an investment yourself in trying to get to the line. and if they saw one line in there that they didn't like out of the 500 papers, you wasted an enormous amount of time. So I think, just the process was like, was, was very stressful.
It took a lot longer than expected. I think we were targeting a two to three month close and it ended up being like six months. Lawyers cost an amount that I just really don't feel comfortable saying out loud ever. It was a cool learning experience, but I feel like I'm lucky. I feel like there's a lot of people who are smarter, who are getting just as much done or more.
Mike (48:12.45)
you
Brandon Harris (48:27.044)
I feel like right place, right time, right people, right traction, right month. like who knows if I would've talked to them in six months, who knows if, you know, if I didn't hire this person with that, I've, you know, so, I feel like a lot of it is good luck and just being building the right thing and being there in the right time. And I think people in general, like my suggestion would be.
not to build something to sell it, but build something to be healthy and then people will want to buy it.
Mike (49:00.418)
Yeah, that that's definitely a healthy approach that I wonder as you talk about the length and the stresses and the resources during that time, six months with something this big hanging over you and hanging over the team. How do you, how did you keep the team focused on the day to day? Because, you know, and you mentioned Max, he's obviously like doing this, all of this other work, right?
that he wouldn't have been doing otherwise. So like there's versions of that across the team, I'm sure. So people are doing more work and there's this giant thing hanging over everyone's head. What about my future? What does an acquisition mean for me? Am I still gonna have a job? Do I get a payout? All of those different things that people wanna know and are thinking about. So was there anything that you did to help keep the team focused on the day -to -day content grind that was happening?
Brandon Harris (49:58.852)
Well, I think part of it is just really just trying to maintain positivity with them. But also, I didn't include them in the minute stressful, like, I got a really shitty email from them on Friday at five. I'm not going to tell the team that. I'm just, Max are going to whine about it over the weekend to ourselves and then get right back to positivity Monday morning. I think.
I think it's just like, it's funny because some people appreciated that I didn't kind of like give them a thousand updates and I took it on myself pretty much. And then some people were like, well, you cut me out. And so I think it's, I think you just kind of accept at some point that not everybody's going to, or not everyone can be happy. Right. And at the end of the day, like you have to do your best to lay the claim and make it for the greater good, make it for.
make it good for as many people as humanly possible. Like we were able to negotiate a really cool bonus pool for a lot of the employees. We were able to like vest equity for a lot of the long time employees. And we negotiated really hard for better salaries and better things for at BC when they arrived. And so it was very complex. It was a lot tougher than I thought, but I think at the end of the day, like,
perfect or imperfect, like pretty pumped that we were able to provide such a great outcome for so many people.
Mike (51:25.762)
That's awesome, man. congratulations on all of that. what a crazy experience. and kudos. Yeah. Two for, like you said, landing the plane. Certainly. okay. New direction. I want to play a little game with you here. Okay. It's called rank the platforms. You guys playmaker does all sorts of work across all sorts of different platforms, social media, podcast platforms, and I'm sure.
Brandon Harris (51:38.372)
Thank you.
Brandon Harris (51:46.34)
Ha ha.
Mike (51:55.234)
others that, you know, fanatics live, there's a venture going on there. So there's so much going on. I want to focus on the social media platforms and, I want you to, like, I've got Instagram, YouTube, snap, tick, talk, and Twitter. Okay. And there's others that you could bring in. I don't know if you guys have a Pinterest account, but you know, we don't have to talk about them. but like take me through each platform and just give me like a minute on like your overview about, you know,
Brandon Harris (52:16.324)
I'm going to go to bed.
Mike (52:24.898)
And like the ranking is basically just like, how much do you like the platform? Right? So just to be clear, to get, to let you off the hook, if you like whichever platform is last on the list, that doesn't mean that you don't like them. It's just the last on this very exclusive and competitive list. So with that in mind, let's go, who, let's, let's go top down. Okay. So number one, Instagram, YouTube, snack, snap, tick, tick, talk and Twitter.
Brandon Harris (52:37.252)
Yeah.
Brandon Harris (52:41.988)
Yeah.
Brandon Harris (52:49.54)
Okay.
Mike (52:55.074)
best platform of that group.
Brandon Harris (52:58.436)
I'll go YouTube. I think YouTube is like the hardest to get going, but I think once you're going and you have traction, it is the best monetization program. There is the most you can do with it. And there's like, when somebody is a subscriber on YouTube, it just, the closeness that you build and like, I just am always confident that.
A long time YouTube viewer is going to convert to something much more than that and I think I can't say that about the others.
Mike (53:30.562)
Okay, number two on the list.
Brandon Harris (53:33.924)
Two, I'm actually gonna go Twitter. And I think...
Mike (53:37.538)
Interesting. That is not what I was expecting you to say.
Brandon Harris (53:40.74)
It's not what I would have said a year ago, but I think what's really cool about Twitter is there's just so many levers to get viewership and engagement, and it's just so affordable to get great reach and grow on that platform. And I think there is monetization in the Amplify program and some of the other programs. It's not...
amazing monetization but I look at it like in our case they cover a lot of our costs to run social and they cover a lot of our different things and they help us reach and drive traffic over to YouTube and drive traffic over to merch and drive traffic over so from driving externally from a platform I think I would rank Twitter number one.
Mike (54:25.282)
Okay, so we've got YouTube one, Twitter X number two, number three.
Brandon Harris (54:32.516)
I'll go snap and I'll go snap. They obviously like monetization again has always been really strong. And I think like the only downside of snap is the uncertainty and now the difficulty in starting something or growing something new from scratch.
Mike (54:34.306)
All right, let's go.
Brandon Harris (54:54.628)
It's one of those like at its peak, there was just nothing close. It was just, it was like you'd make so much money per piece of content. You would get such great reach engagement. And, you know, there was no opportunity that was even close. The support was great. And so I think it's just one of those where Snap was my number one for a very long time. And now we just don't have as much utility for it today.
Mike (55:24.514)
So the big headline here is that Snap has dropped two places in your ranking. Is that what you're saying?
Brandon Harris (55:30.212)
I guess, no, I want to shout out Emma. Emma is the best. Emma is holding strong and is still so helpful and is the best rap I've had on any platform. Bar none.
Mike (55:31.362)
You
Mike (55:36.706)
Okay.
Mike (55:44.29)
Look at that, Emma Wakely, shout out. Amazing. Okay, number four on the list, you've got YouTube, Twitter, Snap, and the last two are Instagram and TikTok.
Brandon Harris (55:46.148)
Yes.
Brandon Harris (55:57.796)
Yeah, I'll go Instagram and TikTok. I think, benefits to both. I think you get the virality of reels and, and TikTok is great. I think my, why I go Instagram first is because I think there's like geographically a better mix of when I post a reel on Shaq pod, I think it's going to be mostly us, some Canada, you know,
going to have a decent geographic makeup. And then if I post on TikTok, Lord knows. It could be, it could be 30 % US. It could be, it's just, it seems to me, I think it's probably just a product of also being more diversified as a platform, but it, I just like, it's tougher to get a really high quality audience over there that.
could convert into buyers or event goers or whatever, things like that. And then it's tough to get traffic off site for me. I know with products and different things, I know TikTok is amazing if you're selling e -comm stuff, but we're not really. And so Instagram to me, I know I can get people off of the story. I know I can drive to the bio. So Instagram used to be my number one and...
definitely has fallen even more than snap the most.
Mike (57:26.434)
Wow, breaking news. This is going to be my headline when I write these posts. Brandon has dropped Instagram four places. What's wrong with Instagram? I got to get my engagement to here, you know?
Brandon Harris (57:39.396)
Yeah, no, and look, Instagram, they care the least about their people. And TikTok's catching up, but like, good luck getting an Instagram rep that stays there for more than a few months. Like, good luck.
Mike (57:46.594)
Really?
Mike (57:52.77)
Okay, so for those listening, and if you weren't taking notes, the order of ranking here is YouTube, number one, Twitter, Snap, Instagram, and TikTok at the bottom. So there you go, thanks for playing the game. I have one more question for you and then I'll let you go. Speaking of Instagram, how in the world did you guys get the At Sports Instagram channel?
Brandon Harris (58:20.196)
Yeah. So that was like one of my, how, how playmaker or pre -playmaker pre -playmaker, there was company called new media that I started, right. It was really a services business and my background was in marketing. Right. And so I would, I would help people kind of get started on different platforms. And, and I would also be helping merchandise companies market. And so,
First, Facebook was incredible. I paid like $25 for a post from a Facebook page with a bunch of followers and I'd get like $1 ,500 in sales. I'd be like, this is such a gold rush. I'm going to spend with every platform. And then, you know, Facebook did the thing where they like changed the algo and now you can't do that anymore. But now they have Instagram and it's photos. And I'm like,
I got in very, very early. I got in all of these little, like, I don't know if you ever had Kick Messenger, but I had Kick Messenger and Telegram and all those that I'd be talking with these kids and we'd be doing share for share and we'd be doing like, we'd be talking about strategies and what's working. And so I bought, I bought as many one word usernames as I possibly could. And at the...
Mike (59:34.594)
What were some others?
Brandon Harris (59:36.516)
I had Atcash and that was going to be for my personal one. Atcash. That was going to be my personal one. Yeah, I got turboed off. So somebody had a bot that was username changing to Atcash every like second for like, for, for months and years. And then finally I went to switch it onto my handle and this bot claimed it like instantly. So I lost that one. That happened to me.
Mike (59:39.01)
At cash? That's awesome.
Mike (01:00:01.954)
No! my god, that's crazy!
Brandon Harris (01:00:06.116)
Yes, it happened to me another time. I had an app, Snags, for football. That one got turboed for some reason. That one's not as cool, but it got turboed. I had it at legal at one point. I had it at peace. I had a bunch of other names like that. They were crazy. I had an app famous for my printing company that I did with my friend Raz, who has a bunch of successful startups and media, Game Lancer and things like that. And...
So just, it went back, I was just really, really early and I was all over. I thought like these would be the next domains. I remember at one point I tried to get the sports .com people to buy my handle for like a few million bucks or something. I was just, it was just different times as a gold rush, but I got in early enough, thankfully.
Mike (01:00:51.042)
Wow, that is just such a uniquely internet thing. You know, these like rushes on usernames is such a wild. I can't believe that you lost at cash. That is devastating. I'm so sorry to hear that. Where are you going now trying to find at cash? Like what's the next platform for that's like that you're looking at as like a rising importance or, you know, maybe.
a place where you can go get a single word username that's going to net you a few mil someday.
Brandon Harris (01:01:25.412)
You know, it's a little bit of a hot take. I think this like, I don't know that there's new social media platforms that are worth investing in at the moment. I think like just about every platform has built in 70 ,000 new features and then the other platform takes the same features. And then I just feel like, like, why do we need another one? Like, do we need to like split up even further? Like it's already,
There's already six, seven apps in our phones that we have to be in if we want to be everywhere. It's like, I just, I might be good on new social media platforms.
Mike (01:02:02.818)
That's a very fair point. I mean, social media now has been around for what, 20 years? Depending on what you call social media, you could put YouTube as the first one, or maybe it's a little, maybe it's Facebook is really probably the first, first one, and that'd be 20 years ago. 2004 is when that started. But I will say, I'll just, I'll slightly differ from you. I remember a time, especially when I was at Snap, right? Like when I first got to Snap, and Instagram kind of like,
took over stories and Instagram was a behemoth at that time, right? It looked like nobody would ever beat it. And there was like, we don't need anything else. This is like the perfect app. It's satisfying all of our needs. Like if you had told people in 2017 that there was gonna be an app that was more important than Instagram and that's TikTok, I think people wouldn't have believed you. So like, I just like wonder if...
You know, I mean, in the, the, the Tik TOK band is always sort of like hovering over this whole conversation. We didn't even get to that, but I do wonder like something else will come. Right. And I just, maybe it doesn't exist yet. Like it may, we may be still a few years out from that, but I like something else will come. And in 2032, we'll be like, man, if you had talked to someone in 2024, you wouldn't believe like they wouldn't have believed you, you know,
Brandon Harris (01:03:21.7)
You know, I feel like I'm always late, so I think you might be right, and I just feel like I'm gonna miss the next one, and this is what it is, you know? But I just don't, I struggle to see like what is missing, you know, it's like live shopping is covered, and if it's live,
Mike (01:03:26.658)
Hehehehe
Mike (01:03:36.418)
Yeah, now it's optimized to like the mobile phone. That's really what TikTok is to me and Snap. But look, if I figure it out, I will go and I'll claim at cash for you. And I promise I won't let it get turboed or whatever happened to it. That's a wild story. All right, man. Thank you so much for the time. Congrats on all your success. And we will talk soon.
Brandon Harris (01:03:42.18)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brandon Harris (01:03:48.068)
Thank you.
Brandon Harris (01:03:53.38)
Ha ha ha!
Brandon Harris (01:04:00.836)
Thank you, Mike.