Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
What happens when truth itself feels up for grabs?
In this episode of Behind the Seal, host Michael Martin sits down with journalist and author Bonnie Kristian to unpack what she calls our epistemic crisis — a breakdown in how we discern truth in an age of misinformation, conspiracy, and cancel culture.
Together, they explore how fake news and social media shape our faith and politics, why Christians are especially vulnerable to conspiracism, and what it takes to reclaim a thoughtful, redemptive discourse culture. From the dangers of mob mentality to the hope of cultivating habits of discernment, Bonnie’s insights offer a path toward restoration, clarity, and Christ-centered truth in a noisy world.
Learn more about Bonnie’s book Untrustworthy and discover how to live faithfully, think clearly, and love well in the age of information overload.
Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more conversations that strengthen leaders and ministries.
About Bonnie Kristian:
Bonnie Kristian is the editorial director of ideas and books at Christianity Today. She is a fellow at Defense Priorities and author of Untrustworthy: The Knowledge Crisis Breaking Our Brains, Polluting Our Politics, and Corrupting Christian Community and A Flexible Faith: Rethinking What It Means to Follow Jesus Today.
Additional Resources:
Creators and Guests
Guest
Bonnie Kristian
Bonnie Kristian is the editorial director of ideas and books at Christianity Today. She is a fellow at Defense Priorities and author of Untrustworthy: The Knowledge Crisis Breaking Our Brains, Polluting Our Politics, and Corrupting Christian Community and A Flexible Faith: Rethinking What It Means to Follow Jesus Today.
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
BTS S3 - Bonnie Kristian Full Episode Mix
===
[00:00:00] Bonnie Kristian: As we come to know more of the truth and particularly God's truth, that should equip us to be more loving love. Also, conversely, should drive us toward wanting to know the truth. I, I think they do have to work together and, and certainly we see them working together in Christ and in a similar way, they should be working together in us.
[00:00:20] Ryan Gordon: In an age of cancel culture and conspiracy theories, how do we know what or who to trust? In today's episode, host Michael Martin sits down with journalist and author Bonnie Christian, who challenges us by saying our knowledge crisis is actually an epistemic crisis, a breakdown in how we discern truth itself.
What stuck with me most was Bonnie's call to stop playing judge in a culture obsessed with outrage. Instead of canceling and shaming, we should pursue redemption and restoration. This is a timely and thought provoking conversation, so let's dive in.
[00:01:00] Michael Martin: Well, Bonnie, welcome to the ECFA podcast. It's great to have you on.
[00:01:03] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:05] Michael Martin: Yeah, well thank you. Well, as our listeners of this podcast know, this is the Behind the Seal podcast where we go behind the scenes at ECFA, and of course our mission is to enhance trust in Christ and our churches and ministries. And you wrote a book that's called.
Untrustworthy. So I know we have a shared passion around this topic and really excited to get into your book, but maybe before we do, just tell us a little bit too, you approach this conversation around trust, from your perspective as a journalist. Uh, what, what led you to journalism?
[00:01:35] Bonnie Kristian: You know, I had a, a really early interest in writing.
Um, and I, I was aware by the time I was in middle school that maybe fiction was not my forte. Some early forays there did not turn out so well. Um, and in, in high school, I became really interested in journalism and newsweeks. I I went through a big, um, time and Newsweek and World Magazine phase. Uh, and, and gradually as I, I got into to college and worked in the college newspaper, sort of figured out that, you know, I'm interested in going into journalism.
I'm interested specifically in, in politics and in opinion writing. Um, and so that's sort of where I steered my career.
[00:02:11] Michael Martin: Well, you and I have something in common, which is I gave up on fiction a long time ago. I think that's the attorney, CPA side of the brain or something.
[00:02:19] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah, it's good. It's good to be aware if that's not your thing.
There's a lot of bad fiction out there.
[00:02:24] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well that's awesome. Well, I'd love to hear just the way that God has positioned your skills and gifts and in communication, of course, knowledge is so important. Uh. As it's related to enhancing trust and we'll, we'll dive into that in a moment. But also as a journalist, I'm curious too, how has that experience really helped refine your perspective, uh, as a fellow believer?
How has journalism helped refine some of your perspective?
[00:02:52] Bonnie Kristian: That's an interesting question. It does make me think a lot about, you know, how do we. And, and this is very much about the, what this book is about. How do we acquire [00:03:00] knowledge, decide what we know, what we believe. Um, and also I think it's, it's been interesting to certain have the opportunity to talk to other, other Christians, whether in settings like this or um, in personal relationships about the media and what journalism is like from the inside.
Because I think there's a lot of confusion. Um. And misunderstanding of, you know, just how the industry works and what are Peter people's motives and, and what are they trying to do, and what are the sources of frustrations that you may have with the media at times.
[00:03:33] Michael Martin: Yeah. That's fair. Well, that's probably a great launching point too, uh, speaking of untrustworthy, the questions that people have even about journalism and that space.
But yeah, tell us what specifically even led you to, uh, this book around untrustworthy. And I know you talk about a knowledge crisis, so maybe unpack that for us.
[00:03:52] Bonnie Kristian: Sure. Well, so a lot of it did come out of my work in journalism. Um, I found myself, let's see, this would've been like in the late, uh, 20 teens, um, and early.
Uh, early 2020s. I don't know what year it is anymore. We're all in the time war at this point. Yeah. Anything sort of
[00:04:11] Michael Martin: before and after COVID. It's a time warp.
[00:04:13] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah. The book came out in 2022, so, uh, yeah, like up, up to around, you know, 20 18, 20 19, 20 20. Um, returning to themes in my, my writing and my day job.
That had to do with knowledge and social media and how do we know what we know, who's trustworthy? Um, how, how are experts speaking to the public? How are we treating each other online? And gradually I started to see these as, you know, not just discrete topics, but things that were related, um, and symptomatic of a larger problem.
And it was also something that I was seeing and, and this is what I hear in the, the. Opening chapters of the book. It was also something that I was seeing pop up in various ways, in real life relationships, um, where I, both in my own life, and then hearing stories of very similar things from friends. Uh, just a, a real lack of understanding of how to navigate this very chaotic, uh, information environment in which we all find ourselves.
Uh, where I think, and, and this gets to that question of, of the knowledge crisis that that's in the book, subtitle. Um, what I mean by that is just this, this sense that I think probably everyone listening has felt at some point or another, which is, you know, particularly when you're consuming, I would say online media, but not exclusively, um, and particularly political media, but again, not exclusively, um, just this sense of.
Uncertainty. Um, and you know, since that it's, you know, it's hard to find firm ground. It's hard to know who you can trust, uh, who you should take seriously, what, what is knowable, what can be verified, what can't be. Uh, and the, the sheer volume of fact and truth claims that are coming our way is just impossible for the average person with, you know, a job and a family and things to do in their lives [00:06:00] to, to really parse.
And so that can feel very unsettling. And I think that that. Um, that experience and then the often negative and, um, even sinful ways in which we respond to it are what I mean when I say we have a knowledge crisis.
[00:06:15] Michael Martin: Yeah, no, you define that. Well, I'd, I'd be even curious, uh, again, 'cause behind the SEAL podcast we'll go a little more behind the scenes with you too of like, I know a lot of people, um, have identified a similar problem.
A lot of people even have ideas about, this is a book that I should write. This is something that I should dive into. But what actually caused you to cross over from, Hey, this is just a good idea, or this is something that I should do to actually taking that leap of faith. 'cause I know that's a big one.
[00:06:44] Bonnie Kristian: Hmm. Yeah. Well, speaking of the behind the scenes, um, behind the scenes from me is, I apologize if you can hear my kids right now, they're having a fun time outside my office door. Um, but in terms of the book, yeah, you know, I, for me, it's been a longstanding interest in, uh, moving as I get older and further in my career, moving away from being quite so tied to sort of the daily headlines.
Um, you know, I can't imagine. Being 50 and still waking up and thinking like, what are the things in the world today? Do I have a take on it? Uh, that just sounds, uh, exhausting and, and not like something I want to do for the entirety of my life. And so writing books, um, is something that's very appealing to me.
As a way to use a lot of the same skills that I'm doing in journalism. Um, but hopefully, uh, in a way that has a bit more longevity, um, and long-term usefulness to readers, uh, in a way that a lot of journalism, you know, in, in a week, no one cares because the news cycle has moved on. So. So that was certainly part of it, which is a, maybe a more selfish reason.
Um, but in terms of the ideas itself, it, it really just was, you know, I keep coming back to this. I keep feeling this compulsion to write about these things and keep, uh, you know, re determining and determining that this is important and needful right now. So maybe I should try to present it in a way that that could reach, um, speak to it in more depth and, and reach a different, and hopefully wider audience.
[00:08:11] Michael Martin: Yeah. Well, we're really glad you did. Thank you. Thank you for the work in the space. And um, yeah, just a moment ago, you're kind of laying out that knowledge crisis. I think one of the other terms that you use in that book is yeah, an epistemic crisis. Um, you were touching on this just a moment ago, but how does that really affect our ability to, I think you touched on not only.
Ability to process the information that we're receiving. 'cause let's face it, we are like all overwhelmed by, by the amount of information that's out there, but also our ability to discern as well. Can you speak to kind of those two pieces?
[00:08:44] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah. So epistemic comes from, uh, epistemology, which is just a, a branch of philosophy that has to do with knowledge and how do we know what we know?
Um, and a lot of academic epistemology tends to be. Very esoteric, far too in the weeds for the average [00:09:00] person to care. It's like little word games and it's like, oh, I guess that's interesting. But I have other things to think about. Um, but historically, uh, and I talk about this in the book, especially in the, in the Christian tradition, if you look back at, at older philosophers and thinkers, they thought a lot about and, and theologians, they thought a lot about epistemology.
They thought a lot about how do we know what we know or what we think we know. Um, and they frequently cast it in terms of. As a matter of virtue, as a matter of, uh, cultivating habits of mind and action and behavior. Um, so that it was, uh, less about sort of constructing these external logical proofs of like, this is why I know this is true.
Um. Or, you know, I've collected all this evidence and so I know it's true. Which is not to say that like logic or, or evidence collecting are bad things. They're not. But it, there was a, a, I think, a greater recognition of the limits of how much we can do that, especially if it's not your full-time to be weighing claims that are made on the internet.
Um, if it's not your full-time job, um, and more attention to what kind of person are you as you are encountering these claims. Um, there's a, a another journalist who I quote in the book who put it as, uh, it's, it's not so much about the belief, but it's about the believers that doesn't super work in a Christian context.
So I would reframe it as, uh,
[00:10:20] Michael Martin: like they all say believers, right? Yes.
[00:10:21] Bonnie Kristian: Right. It is not about the knowledge, but about the, you as the knower. It's about what kind of person are you in this, um, epistemic crisis or this knowledge crisis and the, the information environment in which we find ourselves.
[00:10:33] Michael Martin: Yeah, that's really good because, um.
Not only are we facing kind of that crisis that we're all experiencing, but there's definitely pieces of it of ourselves that we're bringing into it. So excited to come back around on that topic here in just a moment. But, um, I know you talk about too, there's some different contributing factors that also play into this whole.
Um, knowledge crisis, you know, right. That we're in, and a couple of those being, uh, fake news and social media. So maybe let's just spend a moment there, um, starting with fake news, you know, from your perspective as a journalist and, and really, uh. Excited about that perspective that you bring, uh, uniquely to this conversation.
Um, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see as it relates to just navigating fake news from that perspective of a journalist?
[00:11:26] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah. You know, it's interesting because on both this and. Social media and honestly, a, a lot of those factors in some way, things are still the same as they were when I was writing this book, you know, about four years ago.
Um, and in some ways they're, they're already somewhat different. I, I think a lot of the, like the virtue stuff that I just alluded to that does not change. Um, but the, particularly with the rise of generative ai, I think the, the fake news situation is different, um, in some ways than it was then. Uh,
[00:11:56] Michael Martin: and how so?
Yeah, tell us about that. I mean, yeah, I mean, basic, I'm sure it aggravated the [00:12:00] situation. Yeah.
[00:12:01] Bonnie Kristian: Basically it's just a lot easier to churn out large quantities of garbage. Um, you know, you can do it with the press of a button. You don't have to sit down and write your nonsense yourself. Um, I think at this point, in some ways, the, the addition of AI to the mix.
Really just makes more pressing the question of can people sort of learn instinctively to identify this stuff. Um, and I think there is a, there's a case for optimism here. Um, you know, if you've been around. The internet long enough. There are certain ways in which you understand it, like a culture, and you can look at a website and say like, oh, that, you know, I can't quite put my finger on it, but something about this looks suspicious.
Hmm. Or, you know, you can come across a social media post and say, this seems, you know, this seems like maybe they copied and pasted it from somewhere else. Like it's not original, or like they're trolling or whatever the case may be. And I think that kind of cultural literacy is something that can be gained around.
Um, AI specifically fake news generally, and I mean, fake news in the sense of like, things that are fabricated because they are cliquey and people wanna, and exciting and people wanna read them and share them. Um, so I, I think there is a case for optimism on that front that, that that acculturation will happen.
I don't think it's guaranteed though. And I think another possibility is just that if there is such a high volume. Um, of human generated AI generated slop, which either or on the internet. Um, but it's, it's very easy to be kind of at once if you don't take the root of just spending less time on the internet and thus continue to encounter all the time.
It's easy to take the root of being. Sort of cynical and gullible at the same time, where if you come across something that um, you know, you're not gonna bother to sort out, is this real or not? If you like it, you're sort of gullible and you're like, oh yeah, this is, this seems real to me. This rings true.
I'm gonna share this. And if you don't like it, it's like, oh, you know, this is probably fake. I dismiss this. I don't care about this. I'm not gonna figure out if this thing that challenges my preconceptions might possibly be true. Um, so. You know, I think realistically probably there will be some of both of that.
There will be people who are that combination of cynical and gullible. There will be people who, um, you know, develop that sort of instinct. I think hopefully there will also be people who just log off a lot more.
[00:14:25] Michael Martin: That'd probably be good for all of us. A different point, maybe a different podcast conversation.
Um. What would be, you mentioned kind of developing instincts. What would be just one or two, um, actionable things that those who are listening, what can we do to help develop better instincts?
[00:14:45] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah, it, you know, it's hard to say. In some ways because I think likening it to a separate culture when we're talking about digital spaces, really is apt where, you know, you can move to another country and spend years there and still not pick up on [00:15:00] cues in like so little social cues and conversations that to someone who's lived there on their whole life is, you know, so obvious.
So, and I've experienced this, um, in particular with my mom. She'll sometimes send me an a website or something and be like, what do you think about this? And she's like, mom, you, you can't see just by looking at this, this, you can't trust this. Um, and it's, but it's very, very hard for me to articulate. What is it that I'm seeing that that tips me off?
That doesn't tip her off? 'cause she has not been around the internet for as much of her life. That said, I don't think there's nothing to be done. And the thing that I recommend most often, particularly when we're thinking about things in the news space, um, is to really sit down and consciously make a list of.
News topics that you want to actually know something about. Um, we have this idea in this country that it is good to sort of be informed, be aware in the abstract that you're gonna know all the headlines. Um, it's become very popular in the last decade for news outlets to have like a five things you need to know today.
Mm-hmm. Um, email. And the idea is you read this. You are getting like this very shallow overview of all the big stories across domains and you're gonna be informed. And what I would suggest is that this is actually a really terrible way to consume news. And I say this as someone who used to write, attend things you need to know email.
Um, I was, I was once a weekend editor and we, we had one that went out every day and on the weekends it was my job. And, you know, I, I think for certain people in certain positions, for someone who, who really loves politics, really loves the news there, that's a fine product. And there, there are people for whom that's appropriate.
But if, if that's not you, and I don't think it's, most people, if you're busy, um, consider that you are finite and you have a finite room in your brain to be thinking about this stuff. And rather than having this. Broad, shallow knowledge, it is much better to deliberately go deep and develop something like real expertise on a few things.
And so when I say, you know, maybe you have a list of up to half a dozen topics. I don't mean like, you know, the executive order that Donald Trump signed last week. I mean, like immigration, like something that's pretty big that's going to last for a while. Probably, probably your whole life. Um, something that you could actually read books about, um, and where you could become a.
Develop some real familiarity with like, who are the trusted voices on this who is worth my time? Um, you know, if, if, if, if this journalist says here's a trustworthy book, like I have good reason to believe I should go and read that book 'cause they know what they're talking about. Um, I think that kind of specific knowledge is attainable for us and it, for some people it may not be six topics, it may be two or three.
Um, and then everything else just kind of hold pretty lightly. Mm. Know that you don't know. Don't try to render judgements. Maybe you study up extra before you vote, but you don't have to to stay on top of it all the time because you can't.
[00:17:50] Michael Martin: Yeah. Thank you for helping us connect those dots. I think that's really good.
I hadn't thought about that before, but I think there is a humility that has to [00:18:00] come, uh, into these conversations and, and definitely a trap of, yeah, we do live in this information overload and so, uh, it can be very easy to think that we can just take it all in. Mm-hmm. Digest it all. But I think that's really good of, um.
Good tip to just come into these, uh, very conscious, um, and to be able to maybe go, uh, more deep as opposed to wide. Mm-hmm. I think that's, that's really good. Well, how about this, uh, social media, this plays a, a big role in all of this too. Um, not only from the, we talked before about kind of the crisis that's around us, but also how we come into.
You know, the crisis itself too. So talk a little bit about social media. How does this, uh, impact our, our brain, our thought patterns? I like, I think we probably like to think that it doesn't really impact us, but I'm sure there's truth, uh, there's truth otherwise that it definitely is having an impact on us.
[00:18:59] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah, it does. And I, I think. I think the way in which it impacts us can be really easy to miss, right? Because you might read the same article that you encountered via, you know, X or Facebook or, or whatever your preferred site is, is you might think, is it so different if I read it because I clicked on it from social media versus I clicked on it just on their website?
And I wanna say that it is. And the reason is that when you encountered it on social media, you encountered it in a particular framing, right? Like maybe. Your beloved aunt whom you trust shared it, and that affects how you're going into it. Um, maybe you encounter it after having just seen like a meme that made you angry and that affects how you're going into it.
And so the way that it is presented on social media, um. All thrown in together with like, pictures of our cousin's new baby, and like, here's a nice dog photo. Um, and like, here's a genocide and you know, here's my new cat. This is like morally absurd, I think, to be jumping around the way we do and getting these heightened emotions and very different emotions back and forth and up and down.
Mm-hmm. Um, I think it, it sort of primes us for. Higher emotional reactions for less attentiveness to fact and to truth. Um, it's just a different incentive system versus sitting down, um, certainly opening the paper newspaper, but even like going to a trusted writer or a trusted news site and thinking like, okay, I'm gonna read this article and I'm gonna learn about this thing in a sober way.
Um, it is, it is like reading. You know, in the town square and everyone knows what you're reading and they wanna know your opinion on it, and you're, you're incentivized to then come back and make a post yourself and tell people that you have the right opinion and you have this smart idea, um, all very quickly, very, very quickly before there's time to make a considered judgment, before there's time to really become well-informed.
So I think, you know, I have still a little bit of lingering social media presence. Um, it's dwindling pretty rapidly right now. Um, I don't have [00:21:00] zero, I'm not saying like it's a sin to be on social media, but I think that there are a lot of risks there. Um, and even since I wrote untrustworthy, I do think in a significant, at least one significant way, it has gotten worse.
Um, and that is the, the intense and an overwhelming rise of short from video on TikTok and elsewhere. Um, that was, you know, I, I was aware of TikTok certainly when I was writing, but it was not anything like the juggernaut that it is now. Um, and even if TikTok goes away, I think we'll continue to see that, that intense interest on, in short, from video for a while.
Um, and I have, I have sort of a baseline suspicion of. Fast-paced video, um, heavily edited video as a means of communicating truth. Um, so like I, I was already pretty down on cable news because it's, it's so fast. It's like, here's this and here's this. And you know, the amount of things you can say like I'm doing right now.
The amount of things you can say verbally in a given span of time is so much more than someone's gonna sit down and read in an article, right? Um, but short form video takes all of that and just exacerbates it like it's really fast. There's no sense of like, now let me hold onto that fact and go check it.
'cause by the time you've really grasped something, the video's over and you're onto the next one, and you've just sort of subconsciously absorbed that. So I think it is quite pernicious as a format for any kind of serious fact or truth claims.
[00:22:29] Michael Martin: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. So I'm curious, would your council, uh, to us in terms of a strategy to approach social media be similar to kind of what you were sharing earlier around fake news, which is take more ownership, right.
Of kind of how we're approaching some of these things. Be be more conscious
[00:22:51] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah. As opposed to
[00:22:52] Michael Martin: passive. Right.
[00:22:53] Bonnie Kristian: I think that's important, and I also think it's important to think about. What are you doing on a given platform? Like what's your purpose there? You know, if you are on TikTok, 'cause you like watching the dance videos.
Okay. You know, it's a dance video. Um. But that's very different than if you're like doing dance video, politics, video, dance, video, politics, video. Um, for me, for instance, um, I just recently took the Instagram app off my phone and, you know, it's very liberating. Um, but for me, on Instagram they have like these little, this feature called stories where it's just like a short little post that disappears after 24 hours.
And it's where a lot of people tend to put their politics because the politics is pretty and doesn't look nice as a fixed photo. You just put it up there and, and you can like, make your statement without ruining your aesthetic. And so my policy is I'm on Instagram to look at like friends and their babies and their pets and very expensive kitchen remodels.
Um, and I am not on Instagram to be doing serious things. Uh, and I think it is like it. Almost not too [00:24:00] strong to say, like irresponsible, to mix those things up. Um, because of the way it's influencing how I'm thinking about things and I'm not giving serious things that due when I'm on Instagram. So if a friend of mine, even if I agree with their politics, if they start posting serious things, particularly political things and their stories, I unsubscribe from that because I, I just know that I'm not gonna deal with it.
The way that, um, I think is conducive to, uh, to virtue to thinking about serious things, seriously, and, you know, happy things happily. It, it just, it, it, I find it too disorienting. Um, and I think we can think about that kind of like, what am I doing here? Um, and shape, consciously shape how we're encountering any social media platform.
Um, and closely related to that, I would just always emphasize that there's a big difference between. Viewing social media content that is from accounts you have personally curated and chosen to follow, versus jumping into some kind of algorithmic for, for you page where anything and everything could come up.
Um, and you don't have any control. And you can be surprised and things can sort of drift along before you even realize what's happening.
[00:25:10] Michael Martin: It's, yeah. That's so good. That's such a great takeaway I think, of this podcast. That's probably one of those, if there's nothing else you do or there's nothing else you take away, just that idea of just being more in the driver's seat.
I think that's, that's really good and helpful. And you're already touching on this a little bit, but transitioning even into. Really decision making and also exercising discernment. Bonnie, I know one of the things that we see here, uh, at ECFA is just this tendency, whether it's, uh. I'll, I'll say particularly with, let's just say Christian donors, 'cause that's a lot of who ECFA is trying to serve.
You know, we accredit churches and ministries for their integrity and their accountability, but then also in a way that can help the Christian donor community make good, wise giving decisions. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that we tend to see is just the way that, and I think it's human nature that, um. We, you know, we fall into a trap sometimes of taking shortcuts when it comes to decisions.
So relying on ratings or rankings or whatever it may be. Um, you know, that's something that we see here is just this idea of people kind of tending to take shortcuts at times when it comes to decision making. Can you talk with us a little bit about that and how do we overcome, you know, some of the bias that can be involved in that, and also how to prioritize.
Really reliable sources, even if it takes a little extra work, is what I'm saying.
[00:26:37] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's difficult because I was just thinking, I was just explaining to, um, an older relative the other day. About Google reviews, uh, and saying like, yeah, that this fake florist that you gave your money to has terrible Google reviews, and if you'd looked at these, you would've known.
Um, and so I network could be good, right? Yeah. And so I understand, I [00:27:00] understand for sure the impulse, you know, I read the reviews, um, and, and when we're working across long distances, there's, you know, you understand the appeal of those shortcuts. I think I would say a couple things. One is, um. The kind of shortcut that you're taking matters, right?
Like there's a difference I think between saying, well, I trust ECFA and I've researched them carefully, and I, I have reason to believe they're doing due diligence and so I'm going to trust their recommendations about these other organizations. Um, that's, that's sort of different from, uh. The lower stakes kind of review reading that I might do for a restaurant or a florist.
Right? And so, uh, you know, I think it hopefully is obvious, but you would, you would want to, to take more care and, uh, you know, take if, even if you are taking shortcuts, taking, um, more careful shortcuts with, with decisions of, of on weightier matters. Another thing is, I would say, is that the, the impulse to turn to reviews is in some ways not really novel.
Um, you know, back in like the, the Jane Austin era, when you were moving to a new town, you would bring letters of social recommendation if you were sort of in that class. And it would basically just be like, you know. I know somebody who lives in the town, my friend is moving there. I'm gonna tell my one friend about my other friend and, and write this letter and say like, Hey, this new guy is chill.
You should hang out with him. Um, and I think that that's a very normal and appropriate way to handle things. Um, and it, it does, it, you know, can tend to be distorted when we're taking it to like this weird national scale, but that basic idea of getting recommendations from people you already know and trust, like that's kind of how humans have to operate.
And so I wouldn't reject that. But I would say, can we think about doing it with a greater attention to that actual personal relationship and, and knowledge rather than sort of trying to make everything as big and impersonal as it can be. Um, there's a, there's a CS Lewis quote that I share in the book about, um.
You know, he, he's, he's certainly not advocating ignorance or lack of care for distant problems, but that, you know, you, you do have this responsibility to, um, you know, you, you have limited time and you have responsibility to care for the, the problems that are in front of you that you can meaningfully affect.
And I think that we can apply a similar principle to, uh, to learning about organizations from people who are in front of us and who have, have real knowledge of them.
[00:29:32] Michael Martin: Yeah. So fair to say that not all shortcuts are necessarily bad, just not, not all created equal.
[00:29:41] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah, and I mean, I talk about this in the, in the chapter about expertise.
Um, you know, there's a, there's a lot of, I think in some cases justified, in some cases less justified suspicion of sort of distant expertise Right now. And that's, uh, like I said, understandable in a lot of cases, defensible in a lot of [00:30:00] cases. Um, but the reality is that, that we all do have to rely on expertise, um, from ex and expertise that we, we are not equipped to assess.
Um, I think we think about this in terms of like that distant, I don't know, like public health official who's telling you to do something you don't wanna do, and like, why should I trust him? Um. But I'm, I'm trusting expertise that I am not equipped to assess every time I drive across a bridge. And I live in Pittsburgh, so it's like all the time and sometimes the bridges fall.
And I still have to trust that expertise is mostly good and trustworthy. Um, and that's just sort of the price I think of living in a world as complex. And in many ways, you know, as good as ours. Like a lot of the, the things that we enjoy do require us to accord a certain amount of trust to people. You know, these like chains of trust, right?
Like I have to trust that the people who built the bridge were working with good plans from good architects and engineers and it just is what it is. And so, yeah, I mean, I think we should be thinking about it carefully and thinking about what kind of, um, shortcuts we're taking and to whom we're giving our trust.
And have I done what I can realistically do to, to find out that it's warranted? Um, but what we can realistically do will, will probably vary considerably depending on the decision and, and the circumstances.
[00:31:14] Michael Martin: Yeah, speaking of which, I think all that's really great. And coming back to, uh, as we said before, a lot of people who'd be listening in on this podcast would be people that are wanting to make wise and informed giving decisions.
Mm-hmm. So if you had any advice to donors as far as, you know, how to find credible information or how would you process, uh, before maybe making that gift to an organization? Any advice there?
[00:31:38] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah, I mean, I, I do think that there. You know, particularly if you're making a gift of a, of a large size, looking at the publicly available information, approaching it almost with sort of a, a journalistic mindset of, you know, do, do they publish nine nineties?
Do they publish their annual budget? What kind of information do they make available? I think, um, a bias towards transparency is always good. Um. Beyond that. You know, I don't, I don't know if I'm the, the greatest advice giver. My giving is overwhelmingly just to, to my local church and to people who are in the mission field that I know personally.
Um, and that's not to say that that won't expand in the future. And I wouldn't be coming for, uh, guidance, um, from groups like the ECFA that, that, you know, assess, make independent assessments. Um, from the outside, I think that's valuable as well. And a sort of, it's, you know, it's, it's not journalism, but there's a, there's a similar mindset up there of like, let's have someone, um, who does not have the same interests as this organization, or not identical interests, you know, certainly common goals and values, but come in and assess and make this more independent evaluation beyond just what they report about themselves.
So certainly what they report about themselves is, is very worthwhile as well.
[00:32:54] Michael Martin: Yeah. No, that's really good. Coming back to that same principle too, once again. Yeah. Taking more [00:33:00] ownership. Mm-hmm. And I think that's part of being a good steward. Um. Mm-hmm. Also, you know, something else I'm curious about is, uh, we talked about, again, the crisis individually, maybe how we're participating or coming into a crisis, but also I think there's this really interesting, um, dimension here too, of even how we might come into some of these things as a group.
Um, and so I'd love for you to talk even here just about this idea of kind of mob mentality or cancel culture and that whole phenomenon. How do you see those? Diminishing the work of Christ.
[00:33:37] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah. So I think this conversation too has, has kind of changed in the last few years. And part of that is as simple as the, the way the culture of, of, uh, the social media NX formerly Twitter has changed because that used to be a, um, you know, cancel culture central.
It was, it was very common to see, um, sort of campaigns to cancel someone sweep through there several years ago. And, and now that's a bit different. Um, and you know, I, I think sort of our, our whole social and and political mood has, has changed since the, the pandemic era when we were all in our houses looking for something to do with our time.
Um, but what I would say is that what, what we talk about when we say cancel culture has tended to mean sort of a public punishment. Um. Often in terms of professional consequences, career consequences for people who have done something or are alleged to have done something can be either, um, that is not criminal, um, and maybe doesn't even violate like universally held norms.
Often a, a feature of it is that the norms are changing or just have recently changed very rapidly and the person maybe didn't even know that what they were doing was something that you were not supposed to do. Um, and the other distinguishing factor of it, you know, you mentioned the mob mentality, the publicness of it.
It, it, it's frequently the, the punishment comes from people who, or at least the calls for punishment, is sort of the impetus that that produces. The punishment comes from people who are not directly. Um, you know, if someone says a horrible comment in public and I participate in a cancel culture mob on social media and say like, this person needs to be fired from their job.
Um, but I, I'm not like, I'm not harmed really by the fact that they did that. I might find it offensive and wrong, and maybe it is offensive and wrong, and maybe they should have known that and maybe they should lose their jobs because you can't have somebody saying something like that in that role. That can happen.
We can think of, of cases like that. Um, but it, it wasn't really any of my business. It was just a random social media user. Um, and so I think that is a big part of it, that sense of, of involving yourself in putting yourself in a role as judge, um mm-hmm. Where you really don't have any particular [00:36:00] right to be the judge.
You're not the offended party. You're, you're not the, the decider of this situation. Um, and then also once it's all over. I, I think as a Christian, I'm particularly troubled by the, the lack of avenues to redemption or to making things right? So again, even if this is a case where they did do the bad thing, and the bad thing does mean they should lose their job, then the job is lost.
And it's like, okay, well what, what do we do with this person now? Because it's not like a criminal sentence where they can serve their time and move on. Um, and I, I think a lot of this, and I go into more detail about this in the book, has to do with the fact that cancel culture is very much about shaming people.
Um, and our culture doesn't have a way to sort of like then restore honor after the shame has been duly applied. Um, and that is, you know, as Christians we care about forgiveness and redemption and a way to sort of make things right, and that lack is very troubling.
[00:36:56] Michael Martin: Yeah, I appreciate your spirit in that.
Um, and I'll say that's very aligned with ECFA's too. You know, that's part of what we talk about too, of, you know, being an organization that stands for trust and integrity and accountability. And like sometimes there are those times where we're in a put in a position to judge, right? Mm-hmm. Should this organization be accredited?
Mm-hmm. Or not accredited. Mm-hmm. Um. But we come all of that in, we come into all that from a posture of we're really here to help build up the body of Christ. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of what you just said really speaks to that. Um, also love to have you speak to it from this perspective too, of, we talk about, um, ECFA as an organization, we're here to enhance trust, not just for the sake of enhancing trust, which is, it's a good thing, but you know, the ultimate end is so that.
Organization so that the church can more effectively reach the world for Christ. And so along with that, you know, how can you, how do you see, like as Christians, how can we help safeguard the gospel witness in the context of all of this conversation?
[00:38:04] Bonnie Kristian: Mm-hmm. That's a big question because sometimes it feels like.
You know, one man's witness, safeguarding is another man's, uh, you know, embarrassing the gospel in public. Um, I think you can ask different, reasonable, well-intended Christians, what is helpful for that and what is not. And they will give you different answers depending on the question at hand. Um, maybe completely different answers.
I think. I think it's, it's, you know, it's never possible to go wrong with just sort of. In so far as we can, doing what Jesus told us to do, um, particularly in, in the Sermon on the Mount, and letting that shape how we are interacting with people in public, in our institutions, um, even if we must on social media, uh, and, and really thinking of it in terms of.
[00:39:00] Of virtue of what kind of people we are becoming, not just did I figure out what was true or did I say the right thing here, um, but did it, have I been cultivating the kind of character that I didn't have to agonize over it in the moment that it, it, it was sort of, you know, through the process of sanctification, through the process of, of building up these virtues.
Um, in so far as we can do that deliberately with God's help. Um, did it, did I reach a point where I just sort of automatically knew the right thing to do in that moment and knew the Christ-like thing to do in that moment? Um, and how you know exactly how that will play out in any given situation. I, I do think that's debatable and that is something wrong on which Christians may sometimes disagree.
Um, but if we are, are really trying to imitate Jesus and, and really trying to, um, become the kind of people for whom it is. Maybe not easy, um, but at least, uh, to some extent second nature to try to imitate Jesus. Uh, then that, that is the, about the best witness that we can have.
[00:40:07] Michael Martin: Yeah, and I know you touch on some of those virtues, even in untrustworthy.
So if you were to hold up even just a couple of those virtues that we should be developing, uh, in ourselves as we are. Try to imitate Christ, you know, what would a couple of those virtues be?
[00:40:24] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah. So the ones that I talk about in the book are specifically intellectual virtues and specifically about how are we encountering knowledge.
And the three that I mentioned, there are studiousness and intellectual integrity and wisdom. Um, and they're in that order to focus on, to sort of move from the initial encounter with fact and truth claims. You know, we're, we're approaching it in a studious manner. We're, we're. Collecting information responsibly, um, from, from credible sources and, and learning how to do that well.
Then moving into to intellectual integrity, um, or intellectual honesty. You know, are we, are we lying about what we find when it doesn't say what we want it to say? Um, are we admitting when we're wrong and, and taking the loss even though, um, you know, that's obviously not what we want to do, but if that's what the, the truth where the truth and the facts lead.
And then moving on to wisdom of, of, um, you know, very much drawing on, on obviously the book of Proverbs and on, on other, uh, wisdom literature and scripture. Are we applying what we've learned and what we've, you know, the, the truth that we've hopefully, honestly encountered, um, to how we behave in the world and, and doing that in a, a way that is wise and that is loving, um, and that is not self-serving as we go about our lives.
[00:41:41] Michael Martin: Yeah. No, that's great. Um, and along the lines too of, uh, as you were talking about being imitators of Christ, you know, what comes to mind for me as I hear that, is just thinking about how, I mean, Jesus, the ultimate example, right? Of just balancing love and truth and [00:42:00] those dynamics that play together. Um, how do you see love and truth?
Fitting into all of this conversation around the knowledge crisis and what we should be doing about it.
[00:42:12] Bonnie Kristian: You know, they, they are linked repeatedly throughout the New Testament and I talk, uh, a fair bit or engage a fair bit in untrustworthy with first Peter in particular, where, where love and, and truth and knowledge are really connected.
I think as Christians, you know, as we come to know more of the truth. Um, and particularly God's truth that should equip us to be more loving and to, um, you know, love is, love is not going to be foolish or reckless. Um, or, you know, uninterested in, in reality, right? It's going to respond to reality and, and have an inherent interest in the truth.
Um, and then, you know, I think love also conversely should drive us toward wanting to know the truth. Um, because if you want to. Uh, if you want the best for someone, then you want a, a, a real and factual understanding of where they are and what they need and how you can help them. You don't wanna be operating in delusion.
That's not going to be loving, it's not going to be meeting their actual needs. Um, and so I, I think they do have to work together and, and certainly we see them working together in Christ in the way that he spoke, but also in the way that he acted. Um, and, and in a similar way, they should be working together in us.
[00:43:24] Michael Martin: Yeah. No, that's good. I just wrote that down. You know, love should be driving us to truth. Um. That's great. Well, Bonnie, um, I think you, you had mentioned earlier, right, recognizing our finiteness and we're all humans, we all have limited time. So maybe, I don't know, that's a way to, uh, bring the podcast to a close.
But any other closing comments or charges to those who are listening?
[00:43:46] Bonnie Kristian: Man, uh, I mean, I, I think my, the closing comment I'm always inclined to give is just, uh, that if you, if you do find the information environment overwhelming, and I'm, I'm sure particularly right now in the late winter and spring of.
2025. Um, I mean as even as a journalist, I find the news cycle right now too much, a lot that, uh, you know, to, on the subject of finding this, there, we are all limited in our capacity to. Uh, change things out in the world. And it is often the case that having a piece of information in our minds, a piece of information about some distant situation in Washington that we can't affect.
Just knowing that information and, and worrying about it. It doesn't change anything, you know, um, which of you by worrying can add an hour to his life and, and which of you by worrying can, uh, change a single executive order in Washington? And so I think, um, I would just encourage people to. Uh, turn off their phones more often.
[00:44:48] Michael Martin: There you go. Alright, well Bonnie hey, thank you so much again for your time and helping us, uh, not only be aware of the moment this time that we're in, but also giving us, [00:45:00] uh, some great ways to think about it. We really appreciate it.
[00:45:02] Bonnie Kristian: Yeah. Thank you again for having me.
[00:45:06] Ryan Gordon: Thanks for joining us for The Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.