As an Armenian born in Egypt Armen Agop was always surrounded by desert. He tells us how this gave him a special freedom to dream, and how he came to carve in granite.
A podcast where artists tell their stories through the materials they choose.
As I always like to say, it's in the desert where I really, learned how to see because it appears to be nothing. But after some time, you start to discover things. You discover the dunes. You discover the very little, elements. If it's a very far, palm tree or or a bird or or a change of the sun.
Armen Agop:You notice things and suddenly they take different importance. When you have a in a when you live in a limited space, for example, here between the mountain and the sea, the vision it's very rich. You are it's full of details and you have to make a real effort to see each element in itself. In the desert, it's like you have to face the nothingness, and maybe you make your own selections.
Sarah Monk:Hi. This is Materially Speaking, where artists tell their stories through the materials they choose. This series, I'm 30 miles north of Pisa in Northern Italy, sandwiched between sea and pine forests on one side, and olive groves on hillsides rising up into the Apuan Alps on the other. I'm near a town called Pietrasanta, nicknamed Little Athens because of its tradition of carving marble. Here, a unique international community of artists work as generations of artists have since Michelangelo first came here 500 years ago to choose marble for his Pieta from the local quarries.
Sarah Monk:Today, I'm meeting with Egyptian artist, Armen Agop. He tells a story of his journey here and what made him choose another material, granite. No sooner do the metal gates of Giorgio Angeli's studio swing open, the dogs appear barking. The dust covered yard ahead is full of big blocks of marble, wooden pallets, and a truck with towering crane to move the marble around. Founded in the 19 seventies, this place has hosted many well known artists, including Novello artists, including Novello Finotti, Kan Yasuda, and Isamu Noguchi.
Sarah Monk:Arman Agop has his studio here, and I go to admire the Sufik series. You can see them for yourself on his website, armandagop.com. Or as always, you can see photographs of all the works we discuss on our website or Instagram, both called Materially Speaking. But if that's not convenient, just listen to his story. I'm sure he'll explain.
Sarah Monk:Because of a noisy robot, we had to move away for our interview, and decided to walk through the impressive sculpture garden with large works by artists who have worked here over the years, and find a suitable place to interview, and a piece of marble to sit on. Behind me, the train sometimes bursts through on its journey between Genoa and Florence. You'll hear it. And beyond the railway is the sea. Ahead of me, towers up the white mountains of the Apuan Alps, tinged pink in the afternoon light.
Armen Agop:Actually, my full name is Armen Gerboian, which I don't, use artistically. I use Armen Agop. Gerboian, it's very difficult to be pronounced. In in Egypt, it was impossible to be pronounced. And, as an Armenian, I would always say my name, Armen, and my family name my family name, Gruboya.
Armen Agop:But in Egypt, because most of the families, they don't have family name, so they use the name and the name of the father and the grandfather. So it would be technically Armen Agop Gruboyan, and, I kind of shortened it, to Armen Agop.
Sarah Monk:And, where were you born? And can you tell me a little about your childhood?
Armen Agop:I'm born in Cairo, Egypt, in an Armenian family. So I think that was something, particular. Cairo is a big city, and there was very small Armenian community. 3,000, in between at that time, 20,000,000. So, I think there was a special, childhood because, I grew up in these 2 different cultures and, many others question.
Armen Agop:It's not about what is right, what is wrong, but with all these contradictions, I was always evaluating the values. No? We're re looking at what I do, what the others do, what we do in house in the house, what they do outside the house. And, I think that's make it very that's made it a rich shelter for me. I'm coming from Egypt, and Egypt is very special place to be born, especially for a sculptor.
Armen Agop:I guess, maybe, as a sculptor, if I could have chosen, Egypt would have been the first choice.
Sarah Monk:Why is that?
Armen Agop:Egypt with with all its heritage, with arts, especially sculpture, I think has a special place than any other country, and its nature. I think the nature of Egypt, this wide desert and the very, limited green areas around the Nile, make it very special than even any other deserts or any other green areas because this strong contrast between both of them gives a very, interesting lifestyle in land.
Sarah Monk:What sort of education did you have and how did you progress to becoming an artist?
Armen Agop:I I find this question is very interesting and somehow, sometimes I find it out of context. When people ask how you became an artist, I think the most honest answer is, I no. I think, like, as any child, I used to draw and play with the, plasterine and play, and there was never a good reason to stop. Actually, I don't know why the others stopped. Why do they stop something which is that fun?
Armen Agop:I mean, I don't understand why they stopped drawing and painting and playing with colors. So I don't think I have an answer for that. It's just natural. It's an instinct. And there was never a good reason to stop.
Sarah Monk:That's a great answer. How long did you live in Egypt, and where did you go after Egypt?
Armen Agop:I stayed in Egypt, until I was 30 years old, and then I got kind of this wrong prize. With that, I moved to Italy for a year, a year and a half, and then I decided to stay in Italy.
Sarah Monk:So what was the prize? Can you elaborate on that?
Armen Agop:The Rome prize, it's a prize given by the Ministry of Culture in Egypt. But the the idea of the Rome prize, it's initiated, by, the French government, like, 150 years ago. And at that time, the French government used to send the best students coming out of the Beaux Arts to Rome in, Villa Medici and to get acquainted to the Renaissance art. Many very well known artists like Rodin and many others, they just got this prize, and they came to Rome to get acquainted to the Renaissance art. And after that, many other countries kind of copied the idea, and they have their, the academies.
Armen Agop:So, they have the French Academy, the Belgium Academy, the, British Academy, the American Academy, and also the Egyptian Academy.
Sarah Monk:So, you knew pretty early on that you like working in sculpture?
Armen Agop:I did hesitate for some years between painting and sculptures. And, I never really stopped painting, but I had to choose between, between them for the for my studies. And, for many years after, yeah, a sculpture took over, I took more space in, in my life, in my time. But for the last 5 years, I'm painting much more than before. And, actually, my next exhibition will be a combination of paintings and sculptures and drawings.
Sarah Monk:Great. And what, material did you choose to sculpt in in those days?
Armen Agop:When I was younger, of course, I tried, as much materials as, I could, try. Wood, resin, clay, plaster, stone, and, bronze. And I was interested to work with, with basalt at the time, but there was no really good information or source to source of knowledge to to practice that at the time. So I kept on working with different materials and, without having, preference actually in one material than another until I got older.
Sarah Monk:So you came here around 30, and, what drew you to the area here? Pietro Santa is an area, and what do you feel is the main benefit of working in a community like this?
Armen Agop:I think this change from from time to time. In the beginning, it was very interesting that, I could see sculptors working from all over the world, from the Far East, from the Far West, and the North, and the South. Really different cultures, different mentalities, different approaches, completely different than mine. And also, priorities and values. Many things I didn't care about.
Armen Agop:I saw people, other sculptors really giving it too much importance, and it's on top of their priority lists.
Sarah Monk:What what sort of things are you thinking of?
Armen Agop:One of the main things would be the commercial aspect, of art. When I used to live in Egypt, there was no really art market. And, we did it because we wanted to do it. We did it because there was our way of existing. I never knew an artist who survived from his work.
Armen Agop:The only ones I knew was the, university teachers or professors of fine arts. Other than that, no artist I know in Egypt at that time at least could manage leave from his work. So, one of the first questions I remember I was asked here, do you sell? I was almost insulted because to sell is like being commercial and my utopic image, even even though I was 30, but still stayed, I think quite late, that, you do art because that's what you wanna do. You sculpt because that's your lifestyle.
Sarah Monk:Interesting. So Basalt, I know nothing about Basalt. Can we talk about the mediums? Because so many people are here because of the marble, but not you.
Armen Agop:Yeah. Actually, I, when I came here in the beginning, I tried a piece of white marble, but, we kind of didn't connect. There was always this distance between, me and, Marble and with what I wanted to do. There was big distance. And, I remember the next studio, they had a small piece of black granite, and I asked the the owner for that workshop, if I can work with that, if, if he can sell me that piece.
Armen Agop:It was a very small piece, like 50 by 50 centimeters cube. He said, no, but that's too hard. You don't need that. You you can't work with this. This is not so good for sculpture.
Armen Agop:And I said, just let me try. I wanna try it. Can I have it? How much you all want for it? And he said, after, of course, I was insisting of it, I said, just take it.
Armen Agop:It's free. You'll see it's too hard. And, there was it.
Sarah Monk:So what was the connection? What did you find in granite that you I'm curious to know what you didn't find in marble because people talk about the dialogue with the stone and I would love to know what that means to a sculptor.
Armen Agop:Many things actually stood the distance between me and marble. Marble, it's a very sweet, material for me. It's beautiful in itself. You have the veins like gray veins or even light gray veins which I think they're very dominant and very present in the in the stone. And, with what I wanted to do, the very simple forms, I found that the veins are very present and granite instead is very neutral, very, silent in that sense.
Armen Agop:There's there's no effect of color or so uniformity of the material in granite was very important for me. Plus, almost embarrassed to say that, but when I was very young and I visited Italy for the first time, and I realized that the David of Michelangelo was taken inside to be protected from the weather, I was kind of disappointed. Again, I go back to where I grew up. We didn't have that in in Egypt. You I'm used to see the the granite pieces standing in the facing time and weather and any, condition, and it was part of the dignity of the material and, its personality.
Armen Agop:So this kind of fragility of the marble, it kind of disappointed me in a way. Although I was not making big pieces for outdoor, it didn't really matter at the time. But this, essence of the the of the material that it's its relation with its surrounding and the nature, I found it a bit different than what I'm used to.
Sarah Monk:And so how about, granite? How does that feel to work?
Armen Agop:The difference between granite and marble that, marble is like layers, one above each other, and the the way of working it is like removing a layer after the other. Granite is completely different. It's volcanic. There are grains attached to each other. So its structure is not like marble.
Armen Agop:So it's with there's no layer that I remove from above the other. So I will I use different botools, like bushhammers, and the idea is to separate the grains from each other and not taking away a layer. And also the discs are different than the marble discs. All the tools, I mean, the the main ideas are the same, but all the tools are different. Even the sandpaper for granite is different than the sandpaper for marble.
Armen Agop:As a as a general difference is that, I guess, plus, the rhythm. Granite is much harder, and it needs to be worked slower. And slowness, it's another factor which really suits me. Granite force you to rethink about your decision, doesn't obey so much. Granite says no several times.
Armen Agop:You really have to be sure of what you're doing. So I think this contact, this relation with the material, it's very, special, which I really feel very good with it because, I have to find a way with the material. It's not the material which just obeys me, say yes yes yes, which I find that with Clay. Clay continuously say, yes. I can do anything.
Armen Agop:Anybody can just touch and play and shape the clay the way he wants. Granite is has this kind of dignity and starts with no. You have to be sure of what you wanna do, and you have to respect the material. Because if you go so fast, you either, burn your disc because it gets too hot, so you spoil it. You have to re replace it.
Armen Agop:Or you can it takes a long time to really go in the, form. So this is a very special relation with the granite, and I think I found my good bone with the with the granite and with the slowness, which gives me chance to, also especially when I'm not working, with a premeditated composition. So it's if there's this process of search and discovering, and so this gives this this give and take with the material, and, that's one of the interesting aspect of the process for me.
Sarah Monk:Granite and basalt. Are they different in the same family? Or
Armen Agop:Granite and basalt, they're in the same family. Granite is the volcanic, stone which came up, out on the Earth. So, we we find it in sort of hills, not very high mountains, hills. And basalt is the is the volcanic stone with the, stayed underground. So it cooled slower, the basalt.
Armen Agop:Granite, when, when it came out in the surface, it cooled faster. Had this shock of temperature, and it cooled faster.
Sarah Monk:Oh, it's interesting. And and do either or both of them come from this area, or is it as material you have to import?
Armen Agop:The granite I work with, is coming from different places, but not in Italy. It comes from Zimbabwe, Sweden, India, but not from Italy.
Sarah Monk:So you're here because of the community of people, not because of the materials, really?
Armen Agop:Maybe it's nice to say that, but to be honest, no. No? I think it's because of the place. The locations, they have their strengths, and they have their character. The character of the location, is very important.
Armen Agop:Of course, the the history, the background of the area with all the sculptures, all the marbles which has been used and worked and sculpted in the area gives a special taste to the to the place. But also the the the location, the relation between the mountain and the sea and, and the flat, area. I think that's very important. It's it's kind of an intimacy, if I can say that, in, in Petrosan. And of course, plus the, the community, which is a very, flexible community.
Armen Agop:It's continuously changing. Especially the foreigners or the artists coming all over the world. Very few of them stays here all the year or move completely here. Most of them they come and go according to the project, according to the work. They're preparing for exhibition or commission for a bigger piece.
Armen Agop:So it's always changing the community. And that also make it very interesting because in any other small village or city, the size of Pedro Santa, they have the same people. Some of them born there and they died there. But, this international community is always changing. That makes it very young.
Armen Agop:Even some of them are very older, sculptors. But it make a young, society because there's always new energy with different ideas. I don't say new because some people they can come with the very old ideas, but that's also in, in which the whole, scene. I don't think I came with a new idea. I came maybe with a very old ideas And, and many times when they talk to me about, oh, what's a new piece?
Armen Agop:I said, no. No. I don't do new pieces. I do very old ones. And that's a statement I'm doing with with granite.
Armen Agop:I'm working with granite. I mean, one of the oldest materials.
Sarah Monk:Can you describe, what inspires your work and and or what your work generally looks like, the size and you know, to someone who hasn't got a picture in front of them, is there a way of explaining?
Armen Agop:I work in, several themes. So for example, the Dutch series are sculptures that, the the viewer or the audience are invited to touch, and when they touch them, they move or they rock. And, I think that's one of my favorite series because, again, growing up in Egypt, I was surrounded with, this kind of gods, which even if they are not that sacred anymore, but they kept some of the sacredness in it. And and the word we use now about the monumentality or the monumental, I think it's, it's very, interesting that we still insist on that word because in the past, it I think it was like these big sculptures that represented God, they had to have this bigger ego and this power and, made people smaller, made them feel smaller. So there was this the difference of, power and ego between the sculpture and the viewer.
Armen Agop:And, as if like it was purposely, planned to this diminutive feeling of the person. That from young age, made me think about this value or this aspect of monumentality in the inner energy of the piece. So in a smaller scale, I, I search about this internal monumentality, this internal energy, this internal strength, which doesn't really need this, huge size. There's something beyond that. It's not only the scale.
Armen Agop:There's this internal, energy which interest me. So in that small pieces, which I invite people to touch it, it was an attempt to equalize a bit the ego between the people and the artwork. We always try to demonize the artworks. It's not, it's not allowed to touch, don't touch, it's forbidden to touch. And granite here allows me, helps me that people can touch it.
Armen Agop:It resists that. It can handle that with no damage. And, I like this meeting with the people with the with the stone because people instinctively, they touch the stone anyway. If we go see, for example, the Museum of the Vaticans, the the the sculptures, the the the feet of the huge sculptures, they're all yellow. People touch it, anyway, even if it's forbidden.
Armen Agop:And when I observe that, I see them touching it without even looking at it. People looking forward, but while they're walking, they just touch instinctively, the sculptures. So that instinctive thing, I think I wanted to develop it or work on it or make it more, open. Why not touching the sculpture? I think sculptures are to be touched.
Armen Agop:And regarding the Souvik series, they're based on, very, simple forms. Many times very similar in composition, but, again, concentrating on the inner world of the piece, then the exterior, actually even, aspect of the piece. That also come from another culture. We we always talk about going forward, going ahead. And, as, as an example, we can take the Sufi dancers.
Armen Agop:They continuously doing the same step, but it's not going further or backward. It's just staying where you are and just trying to go deeper and just unite with yourself and in a way unite with many things that you you don't notice when you're trying to notice all the details, around you. So the idea was, like, doing round pieces so they are the same composition, very similar, in the general aspect, but each one has its own individuality, has its own, inner world different than the other.
Sarah Monk:And, how has new technology changed the way you work over the years?
Armen Agop:Actually, I work both ways or in any way. I am not against working with, assistance, and I'm not against working with technology. I tried all of them, but, I prefer to work by myself, especially in, well, this smaller dimensions, this human skills, which I can do most of it the way, I want by alone. But, of course, when I work on bigger pieces, it's good to have some help, and I will collaborate with the artisans and and highest, latest technology actually. And I think the latest technology is very important because, you can save a lot of time and energy.
Armen Agop:And I see by by age what the energy I had when I was in my twenties, I don't have it now, and that accelerates a bit some, of the process. But I think it's very important to know, the material very well, and the technology becomes a tool. And not just to adapt to the possibilities of the technology because that can also, bring some artists out of their track.
Sarah Monk:So what you're saying is it's it's just another tool?
Armen Agop:Yes. And and, actually, I work with a combination of the sometimes the latest technology for cutting, sometimes even roughing it out, and, I combine it with the most primitive technologies, if we can say that, because the way of, finishing and and and, smoothening the form and, capturing the the shapes I want, I go back to the most primitive ones with using other abrasive stones and, and kind of grinding the stone. So it's always a mixture of the latest and the earliest, and, I think that's also part of the fun. Wow.
Sarah Monk:And you were telling me earlier about the exhibition that you do you're doing in Paris. Do you want to talk a little about that? Because the emphasis of that was on the eye and the night. And that also related to the desert a little?
Armen Agop:Yeah. And this late latest exhibition in Paris is called, the eye and the night, and it, it's taking place in the Institute of the Islam sculpture. It's a very special exhibition, I guess, and I think the curator, Jardim Bloch, put really interesting works together from very different cultures and different artists. And, again, this theme, the night is very important, I guess, in the Middle Eastern culture. I'll go back to the desert again.
Armen Agop:In the desert, when, when you spend good part of the day in the at night, darkness, which is again seeing nothingness in a way, has an important role in your daily life because you have to get used to the darkness. It's something we forget now when we're living in the city, how would be to live in the desert when you don't have electricity, or at least they didn't have a long time ago. So you have to cope with, with nature in a different way. The the moon has a big role in your life. Actually, the Arabic year, it's moon based.
Armen Agop:No. The the Arabic month is like 28 days of the moon months. So, these limitations, which should be in darkness at, at night, it gives big opportunities to dream, to see, to visualize, to imagine, and to maybe make, a new, mythologies.
Sarah Monk:Thanks to Armen Agop. You can see photos of his work on his website, armenagop.com. You can also see photos of all the works we discuss in this series on our Instagram or at our website, materially speaking.com. Production and composition thanks go to Guy Dowsett. Recording thanks to Duncan Thornley at MAP Studios.