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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Very often, pressure from the outside world can cause cracks in teams, pushing us apart and making us put up defenses. This can leave us dealing with challenges alone, which can often make matters worse. Our guest in this episode of We Not Me has a novel approach to solving this problem. Mette Oscar Pedersen is a dance facilitator and has worked with communities, companies, and other groups to help them bring joy and connection to their work. Dance might sound like a surprising approach, but the principles Mette shares and the energy that her approach can bring will inform and inspire you.
[00:00:33] hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond
[00:00:43] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:45] Dan: And we are kicking off, Pia, our ninth season today, which is very exciting. And we are kicking off on a real high note. I sort of reflected as we've been um, meeting our guests and, how sometimes we can get quite serious on the show about, about the issues in the world and uh, the solutions to them and the science and all those things. And our guest today, has a completely different approach. And it took me back, she took me back a little bit to a couple of months ago when I went to TEDx in Manchester. And one of the speakers came on stage with a guitar and everyone sort of immediately thinks oh, hold on a second. And sure enough, he got us all singing, but you could, it was palpable how people did not want to sing at all. And even I've sing in my band but I did not want to sing in that context really either. But it was an amazing how he managed to get us into it and what an impact it had on the entire group and the people we were next to.
[00:01:40] So our guest today is sort of in a similar business. I think she calls herself a dance facilitator. This is Mette Oscar Pedersen and the conversation we had with her is just extraordinary in the impact that she can have on groups.
[00:01:59] Pia: And a really warm welcome. Mette, ti's absolutely wonderful to have you on the show.
[00:02:04] Mette: Thank you very much and thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to this.
[00:02:07] Pia: So we as is customary I'm gonna hand you over to Dan who's going to be shuffling the cards and asking, you gotta hope that it's a green one. 'cause that's a little easier than if it's a red one. But we never know.
[00:02:20] Dan: Well, I have cut, I've cut said cards already. Gave him a shuffle. I've cut them and it's an orange card. And this is one that we have had before and it is, you have to put your modesty aside now, Mette. So it's the most selfless thing I do.
[00:02:34] Mette: Well, I've always like really dressed up. And for today, I've added a little flowers in my headgear, my headphones, and big earrings, big glasses, lipstick, flowery dress, and it's only nine o'clock in the morning here. Yeah. And I, and actually I, I do that all the time also when I'm just home alone.
[00:02:58] Dan: Yeah, it has an impact. And before the show Mette, you were saying that that covid and remote working led to a bore of a sort of blossoming of, of headgear to, to sort of project ourselves in this little, these little video boxes.
[00:03:12] Mette: Yeah, I learned a lot from that. I have so many I had so many fascinators, you wouldn't believe it. I had to pick a, build a walk-in closet when my daughter moved out this
[00:03:21] Pia: To put them all in?
[00:03:22] Mette: Yeah.
[00:03:22] Dan: Wow, that's impressive.
[00:03:24] Pia: I have never met a fascinator collector before.
[00:03:27] Mette: you have now.
[00:03:30] Pia: So I do, I'm intrigued. So what got you into fascinators?
[00:03:35] Mette: Well, one thing was the screen time you had during Covid, you had to have all these online meeting meetings and I thought, how can I look a bit better? So I work a lot with headphones and I thought it would be easier. I teach dance classes to put on a little flower, then they can always see the teacher.
[00:03:55] Dan: They can identify you. Yeah.
[00:03:57] Pia: and it adds a nice bit of joy to the whole meeting as well.
[00:04:00] Mette: it does.
[00:04:01] Dan: It really does. It's excellent. I'm sorry the, the, the uh, listener can't see you, but it's a joyful thing. So, but Mette, if we wind back a little bit in your life, give us a little potted bio of what got you to this point.
[00:04:12] Mette: Well, actually I used to be a social worker and a coach. So, so I've been working for that with that for 20 years. And I thought it was time to try something new, about six, seven years ago. So I started actually journalism school. And I don't know, sometimes you just accidentally stumble into something that's going to change your life. And a colleague of mine invited me to a dance class, groove class. And I thought, oh, dancing? That's not me. I'm six feet tall. And I thought, ah no. I like dancing. But I always felt like, ah, it was not me.
[00:04:50] And then I thought, well, today I'm going to say yes and I'm going to go there. And after five minutes I thought oh my God, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. Took some classes, courses, and used of course, all my coaching and counseling experience to build what I have now.
[00:05:12] Pia: That's amazing. What types of dance class was it that you went to? Was it just a sort of a general one or a genre of dance?
[00:05:19] Mette: It was a groove class, so it was, performance free, very connecting kind of dance where you dance to different genres of music, but you're always connected with the others. But there's no left and right. There's no choreography that you have to learn. So it was more like um, an inner experience and a community experience.
[00:05:42] Since then I work with uh, building communities in organizations and companies and yeah, also in my backyard. But today we'll be talking about the companies and and organizations. Um, it's like that at the moment that people need to feel connected. We need to connect more to each other, and we need to empathize more with each other. you know? And I just, found out that dancing together is just such an easy way to build relations and to build the sense of belonging together.
[00:06:16] Dan: So help us to visualize this, Mette.
[00:06:18] Pia: Yeah, I need 'cause I'm thinking there's a lot of people I work with that would not be good at dance and they would not be interested.
[00:06:25] Dan: We'll get to the breaks, I think. But what do you do? What does that actually look? Talk us through the whole process if we're, yes, If we were to be involved in this.
[00:06:32] Mette: It depends. You know, sometimes I come to a company and it's like a theme day where you you know, the theme is working together better. And then. I give them the headsets and I, of course guide them through all the boundaries they could experience. You know, there's so many, people being afraid of dancing that you wouldn't believe it. You would rather jump from an airplane in four kilometers height, some of them, than dance together because it is so, so, much fear connected to, to to dancing.
[00:07:12] So my first job is to break that barrier, and show them that it's okay and that you can attend no matter if you've danced before. or not at all.
[00:07:23] Dan: How do you do that though? How do you convince people? 'cause it's a, it's an, it's a probably, it's sort of an irrational fear, like most of them. How, how do you get people through that. The, you know, where they'd rather do what you are gonna do than jump out of a plane?
[00:07:36] Mette: It is an irrational fear, but it's also a fear that is, is real for some people. And I, know because I experienced it myself the first time I went to a dance floor. So I talking into this, it's something that we lose because a child who's three years old is not afraid to dance. And a 7-year-old child is not afraid to dance. And as you grow a little older, you see more, and you get more conscious about how you're moving, how you're reacting, how you are, and then you lose that impulsiveness and that. I don't know, joy.
[00:08:12] So it's something that just happens along the way and it's, teenagers for example, they're the worst group. They're so self-conscious. They're so, concerned about what other people are thinking, but usually our thoughts about what other people are thinking, they are actually just in our heads. You know, we just, we are just more concerned about what other people are thinking, but the concern is usually just inside us. Usually people are much too concerned about thinking what about themselves and what other people are thinking about them.
[00:08:48] Pia: You know, how do you get people to feel comfortable initially?
[00:08:52] Mette: Well first of all, I look as I do now. So I'll always be the one standing out the most. There'll always be someone who looks more silly than they do. But it is a boundary because when you're dance, it's the same as when you're singing, when you're speaking up at meetings or whatever, it's a vulnerability, you have to show something of yourself, you have to, uh, let yourself be seen, and you have to, to show a vulnerable side.
[00:09:20] And you can say that doesn't belong in the workplace, but actually it does. We spend so much time in the workplace, we need so much to be feel connected to not only the greater cause of the work we are doing, but also the minor things, as have a good relations with your colleagues, be feel safe with your leader and, you know, just the basic things like that.
[00:09:45] So what I'm also always asking, if it's a group and it can be a group where you have the leader and you have like 10 workers, then I'm always like the leader has to also participate. So this is a joint experience. This is not something that you can just sit out. And even if some people are very reluctant to participate and say, oh, it's not for me. I say, oh, I know but try have a, a set of headphones. I always work with the headphones, and try just sit there and listen and they start moving slowly.
[00:10:21] Pia: So is this all done virtually? This is not in a room.
[00:10:23] Mette: This is in a room. I have like a silent disco uh, headphone gear and, and I use those, mainly for the main reason because it's so much easier to disappear into the sound bubble. You kind of cheat a little con corner of your conscience. So the fear of what other people are thinking kind of disappears a little bit when you use the headphones, so I almost always use them.
[00:10:51] Dan: If I'm put picturing myself here, I think the next thing I would have is, am I even going to be able to do this once I've overcome that initial barrier, am I gonna even be capable of this? What sort of things do you do?
[00:11:02] Mette: You add, and you are going to be able to do it. It's not a problem. Next time you're in Copenhagen you, you'll have to attend. Well, all genres, different levels of activity and all kind of different rhythms. So what is important here is not what dance do you do. The important thing is this a song, a rhythm that is able to connect people, or is it a song or a rhythm that allows you to feel something or to experience something in your body?
[00:11:39] So you will not be standing in lines on my dance floor. You'll be walking in and out between each other, or not only walking straight out, but al also sideways and backwards. So, and you'll be using your arms. So just imagine if you walk and you change directions every two or three steps and you use your arms a little bit, then you always already have a dance, so you don't have to, to think too much about it. So it's very, very simple.
[00:12:10] Pia: And at what point do people feel that they can be a bit more self-expressed and probably more connected?
[00:12:17] Mette: Usually it happens the first time. And then when you work with people for several times, something else starts to happen. I have a group of uh, care takers, work in the hospital. I work with them every week. And they, they work so hard. They're always like, so tired and stressed out because the healthcare system is, uh, is bleeding in Denmark at the moment, and they run really fast.
[00:12:44] And sometimes some of them come, you know, from the ER ward practically in their scrubs and clogs and just to dance for five minutes and then go away because they have to go back. But, usually they come for a whole hour.
[00:12:59] And I was talking to a couple the other day and they were looking really tired and I said, Hey, what's wrong? Yeah, we were talking about the thing where you sit outside. Your work and you can't really bring yourself to go in. And I thought, oh my goodness. And just to provide a place where it's okay to have that talk, but also to work with it. So I changed, of course, the whole playlist for that particular class and put on some tunes where it was more, you know, allowing yourself to feel, Hey, how is my body doing today? And of course I would not be able to do that the first time I was working with them, but I've been there for two years now every week. So of course it changes and people are, and I believe that it does something for sick leave and work satisfaction and stuff like that, that you provide a space where you can actually allow yourself to feel, but also, mirror yourself in others and see, hey, I'm not alone here.
[00:14:08] Dan: So building on that, maybe this might be a bit of a stupid question, but how does this build communities? What's the actual, what goes on then? It seems, it sounds like it very, it starts as a very introverted moment where I'm uh, not sure about this. How does that progress to being a thing that, that unites those people?
[00:14:25] Mette: It's like this, that, and this is research talking that if you move together in the same rhythm, then you will, somehow like that person more. So there was a study of, I think it was Oxford University, where they did like dance experiences and had people move to the same rhythm, doing the same kind of boom. And then they had people. Listening to different songs, different tunes, and moving in their own rhythm. And what they found was that the people who moved to the same song and the same rhythm liked each other more, were more prone to talk to each other and also had more empathy towards the other person. So it's a mirroring process.
[00:15:14] So, this is the same that happens if you, sing together and your heart rate, your rhythm. You connect in another way. And of course there's a, when you have the movement as dance is, you can do a lot as a facilitator to make it easier to connect. You can point at each other, you can send hearts, you can, you know, you can uh, dance with each other. So, so it's easy to make that connection as a facilitator too.
[00:15:43] Pia: And do you do you debrief the groups a, after the dance and so to understand kind of what the experience was and how that's impacted their connection?
[00:15:52] Mette: I always do that because sometimes, and it happens quite a lot, as well, I have people who get very emotional. You know how it is, you can listen to a song and it just goes straight to your heart and it's very vulnerable situation to be in. If you're with coworkers that all of a sudden tears are flowing.
[00:16:13] So I always actually, also before say that this is what music can do to you, and if it happens, don't feel the need to go and give her a hug or anything. Just let her be and it's okay. And we can talk about it after. But I, I think it's um, the thing that you. Experience your colleagues, in another setting. It's really important, and it does something to the workplace to move together.
[00:16:45] Dan: That makes perfect sense actually, and I was, I suppose we're talking here mostly about, sort of bunching us all together, about Western cultures, where, a lot of these things have been sort of squeezed out, haven't they? If you look at other cultures, they've retained this idea that we make music together, we sing together, we dance together just as part of normal life. We sort of lost these things along the way, haven't we? But it seems like you can tap back into it if needed.
[00:17:09] Mette: We have lost it and we are also, dancing and singing and celebrating. It is such a natural thing to do. And it's something that is deeply rooted in also the Western culture and our cultures. But we somehow, along the way, we forgot. We had to work from nine to five instead, and we have to like, just perform all the time. And somehow this is the cultural things are the things that disappears. And of course it's a shame, but I also think it's something that is necessary for us as a society to, to kind of reframe and figure out how can we spark some joy? How can we not go to work and be sad and afraid to go inside because it's too stressful? How can we go to work and feel happy? And if all it takes. Five minute of dancing every lunch break or whatever, why don't do it? I know it's not all it takes, but
[00:18:07] Pia: But it obviously is a big part of it. And do you find, like working with groups and teams, do you find that they adapt and change some of the ways that they work and are more connected as a result of dancing together?
[00:18:19] Mette: They do. I was working with a group from the National Police Force, and I'm bringing that up because they were tough people and that was a tough crowd.
[00:18:29] Dan: Well Mette we've watched a lot of Danish crime dramas. The, they deal with a lot the police in Denmark.
[00:18:35] Mette: They do. They do. Yeah. It was like that. They were all like that, all like the ones you see on TV. And we were doing a session and afterwards, this huge guy, he came up to me and he looked really, I wouldn't say mean, but a little, and I was a little nervous. I said, oh, what's he gonna say? And he said, thank you. I never knew there was so much love in this room. And that is just, you know, I always bring that example because that's really not what you expect from, yeah, you saw Broen and all the other, The Bridge and all the other shows.
[00:19:11] Dan: Exactly. You don't, You don't
[00:19:13] Pia: we were hooked on The Bridge. But it is interesting, isn't it? Because behind the persona of your work persona that there is that sometimes that yearning for connection, that creativity, that other side of you, and that gets shut down. So, you know. I'm interested in like, do you know, do they find different ways to communicate or to run their meetings or to interact with one another that can make a quite a substantial difference?
[00:19:38] Mette: Yeah, they do. There is another, openness after you've been working, and. A better connection of course, to each other. But something happens also on the individual level, so you get more connected to yourself. We all know this, that when we dance or do yoga or whatever, we feel a greater connection to our body. Uh, so it's easier, for example, saying no. Speaking up at meetings, talking more maybe it's something That you struggle with. And then you experience that after 6, 7, 8 weeks you've had all these songs, uh, where you have to find power and where you have to maybe shout and, and then all of a sudden you feel, oh, there's a change coming here. It's actually, it's easier for me now, because I can feel what I want to um, what I actually mean. So it's easier for me to speak up at a meeting, for example. And of course of course also the tone between colleagues. If you've had a group, where they have a bit of a conflict, then it's yeah, that changes too, because you see another side of that person.
[00:20:56] But of course, I know that dance is not the first thing people will say, oh, we have a conflict at work, let's dance. No, I know that. It's what do you call it? A high threshold to, to explain to people what it can do. Because it would be easier, as I said to to parachute over an airplane.
[00:21:19] Dan: Indeed. It's, it sounds wonderful, Mette. So, how could someone benefit from this? How could they start to benefit from what you've learned?
[00:21:27] Mette: Well, what they could do is to start at home. Just to put on a piece of favorite music and see what happens. And say to themselves I don't wanna sit down, and just, you know, let my body move. And be aware. You put some awareness in how do I move my hands? How do I move my fingers? What is happening in my face? And then what is happening in my shoulders?
[00:21:52] So this is the first step, to actually, as you need a morning yoga practice or you need to go running, or you need to have your breakfast or your coffee, then maybe you should just put in a little dance every day because there's a beautiful quote, I think it was Sandra Bullock or something, and, you know, dance a little every morning because it changed the way you walk out in, through into this world. And then if you have the courage, you can maybe during the lunch break say should we just listen to a piece of music?
[00:22:25] Dan: See what happens.
[00:22:26] Mette: start. Yeah.
[00:22:27] Dan: music. Yeah. Perfect. That's a lovely, yeah, that seems like a very practical tip and starts yes, by with self, but can expand into to others. So, so Mette give us what's your media tip for us? Book recommendation, whatever.
[00:22:43] Mette: oh yeah, I have it right here. It's of called, it's called The Dance Cure, and it's by professor Dr. Peter Lovatt. And it's actually it's dance made so easy that everybody can understand and it's a compilation of all kinds of also different, research and stuff like that about what dancing can do to you, and to your brain, and to the communities.
[00:23:05] Pia: It is a lovely feeling when you can let go and, and kind of move into a different, a different space and that does, that's a different training of the brain, I think.
[00:23:13] Mette: It is. And it's, it's an important one also to feel that kind of freedom, because it is actually, what we are working with is also to the ability to actually feel free. And we are so concerned about, uh, we have so many constraints in our bodies, it's so difficult to let go. So to be able to do that It can only make the world a better place.
[00:23:37] Pia: Oh, a hundred percent. So you must dance every day, and when is your favorite time to dance?
[00:23:42] Mette: Well, I do dance in the morning, but I also actually dance in the evening. I dance my day,
[00:23:49] Pia: Top, top and tail.
[00:23:50] Mette: Yeah. Yeah. Instead of, and I actually, I forced my kids to do, when they were living at home, they were forced to like dance the day express,
[00:23:58] Dan: As a sort of recap?
[00:23:59] Mette: A recap. How was your day? Find a piece of music that tell us about your day and then dance. So that's a tip for you as well.
[00:24:07] Dan: Yes. A
[00:24:08] Pia: That's a great, that's a good parenting tip. Don't tell us about your day. Just play the music and, and yeah. That's lovely.
[00:24:15] Dan: Wonderful. As you say through the teenage years that it could be very interesting to observe. But um, Mette, you've left us on some a really, you've, really powerful points there to be able to find for feel free, and definitely another way to connect and make this world a better place. So Mette, thank you so much for being on the show today. It's been just inspiring and delightful to talk with you.
[00:24:34] Mette: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:24:38] Pia: It's not lost on me. The fact that we've had two great Danes as our guests, Bastian Overgaard and now Mette, and both of them have come at building community from a really creative position. So Bastian talked about the importance of silence in. Groups and actually recognizing it and Mette's looked at it from a dance perspective. They're aligned and they're looking at different mediums to bring people to, together to create some spark together when we're possibly in danger of sort of having quite a lot of monotony in our relationships and then we retire.
[00:25:18] Dan: Yeah, and it weirdly, I think there's a real parallel, isn't it? With Bastian's sort of facilitated silence where we're together doing, not talking to each other, but doing the same thing for a reason. That's, that almost describes what Mette does as well, but with music and movement, so, yes. Very interesting. Those Danes are very clever.
[00:25:37] One of the points that jumped out for me around this was, was this point about vulnerability. I know Pia, you use a phrase. Quite a bit with groups about, when teams about having corporate armor wearing the corporate armor, and she talked about vulnerability and how this, this can boost that, help you to take off that corporate armor. And it's sort of a sort of, it made me realize that actually it's the corporate armor that stops us connecting. If I'm sort, pretending everything's okay, I'm not sharing my concerns, and in that situation where I'm afraid to go back into work, the way to connect is to say that to someone, to share that, and then they can, you can then connect to support each other. If the corporate armor is on, it actually is a, it's an armor to connection actually. Not just doesn't just protect you, it stops you from connecting with others. And I could really see how this might work.
[00:26:26] Pia: Yeah, it's very unifying. and it's very equal. I think, you know, there will be leaders listening to this will think, oh gosh, that would be actually quite a big step for me personally to take, because sometimes that. Misconnection also happens from the leader perspective that they, they feel that because they have to make quite a lot of tough decisions that they need to create a distance and put on that corporate armor so that they can restructure past, you know, bad news, have performance conversations.
[00:26:54] So yeah, it works both ways. And yet as humans, we can't, we sort of slightly we disconnect and we don't ground ourselves. And then we become quite mechanistic and then we wonder why people have lost engagement. So, you can absolutely see the way that this works.
[00:27:08] Dan: I think this word professionalism pops into my mind. You know, how do you as a senior, if say you're a senior manager, you know you've gotta be professional. That's the idea, but what does that mean? That means actually quite serious and boring and do not make a mistake. And dance and all these other things, it, yeah, it puts you out there into a position where you might, feel, you might think you're feeling, you feel foolish, but obviously it, it has a huge benefit. It was a, it. It's a real reminder of that. I think that we can be too serious and professional.
[00:27:38] And I think honestly, if you, I think you can do all those things and still have the serious conversation. I think that's part of being human. I don't think you have to just say, oh, that's a silly person, or that's a serious person. Actually, this is all part of the whole, but we tend to sort of forget some of it.
[00:27:52] Pia: Yeah. And I love the I loved the dance in the morning and just don't sit. And then the debrief with your kids. Ooh, I think I might try that one, you know, to put the song on. What song would you listen to today to reflect your day? Well, that's quite a good, that's a, good one.
[00:28:07] Dan: It's a, it is a good one, isn't it? Yeah, I like that. Very clever. I, I used to have a friend that I used to um, send him s we used to send each other songs to insult each other, so th this would be a probably more constructive way of doing that. But it, yeah, the idea of sparking joy and I think people, we should take this into the, our ninth season and just keep the joy, keep the joy up as we go through these months ahead and I think Mette set us off in a really good direction, and I hope that our listener can take something from that and see if they can spark a little bit of joy for themselves and get some connection with it along the way.
[00:28:41] But that is it for this episode. We Not Me is supported by Squadify. Squadify is the complete system that helps teams to connect and perform. You can find show notes where you are listening and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends.
[00:28:57] Since we recorded this episode, we've decided that while running We Not Me in seasons was great for us. We get a break and we also have time to plan each season, it's maybe not so great for you, our listener, as you can't rely on there being a new show to listen to. So from now on, We Not Me will run continuously with episodes every two weeks. We've got loads of amazing guests lined up, so we look forward to having you along for the ride.
[00:29:22] We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:29:27] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.