Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Alright.

Are we recording already?

Yeah, we're recording, Tom.

I don't have my thing on.

Whose fault is that, though?

Yours.

You started the recording.

Mr.

Tom.

Okay, you typed my thing.

You're close to the I
hear a lot of blaming.

Okay.

Yeah.

I need to Otherwise I'll
be popping my P's here.

Nobody wants that.

It's to be recorded.

It's to be protected.

Okay.

My microphone is protected.

We're recording in the evening.

Yes.

It's night record, one of
our famous night records.

Yes.

It's the fans love because they're
different than most of the other episodes.

So different and yeah.

It's, we just had a nice big meal.

It's true.

Where our bellies are round.

Yes.

We ate delicious pasta that Paul made
and then ice cream that Ana brought.

Honey we had ice cream.

Yeah.

There's a roof over our
heads pretty good overall.

Yes.

Time for a big dose of stoicism.

I'm anticipating some distance
between us and Marcus this evening.

In my life?

Yes.

At the moment.

Perfect.

Let's find out what it has to offer
even when we are turning our noses about

it and keeping him at an arm's length.

Maybe he'll suck us back in with
his charm and It's all his charm.

Tom, do you want to His warmth.

Is there anything you'd like
to bring to today's reading?

There is one thing actually, which is
an apology, which is that I remember

now that I have the book in front of me
again, that we made a commitment in our

last episode to use a phrase in the book.

Oh no!

I'm even worse.

I didn't even remember.

Yeah, that was audacious.

I sure didn't do it.

I think maybe a way we can reframe
that challenge to ourselves is Yeah.

This podcast is certainly a place
where you can receive bonus points and

applause and celebration if you are
ever able to deploy a Marcus ism in

real life, but I think expecting to.

It's too much.

To run that background process all the
time of how am I going to work this

into conversation is just not bandwidth.

How soon after to me, I did
not think about it just at all.

We recorded that one in my apartment
and I'm pretty sure we both left.

Yeah.

Yeah, we went to work immediately
afterwards and I never thought about it

again, right now I was like, Oh shit,
I was going to try to use one of these.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a blessing that
we don't have to think about

stoicism as much these days yeah.

Imagine if these were things that
were very natural for us to say

in our day to day conversation.

I guess that means things are going
as, like That we're fully numb.

Numb to life.

That we have this little bubble of,
uh, of safety around us all the time.

Marcus did in some ways, I wonder I
think this book comes from a bubble

of safety a little bit, actually.

He's got the time to go reflect and write
in his journal at the end of the day.

Yeah.

He lives a life where some time spent
writing down those reflections is a luxury

that he can afford and that kind of thing.

In some ways.

It's all relative, yeah.

Yeah.

He had every meal, there
were three tasters.

And they each had names, Tom.

So there was like the first taster,
second taster, third taster.

And it was very prestigious
to not be the first taster.

You really didn't want
to be the first taster.

So you would rank up to second taster
and eventually, once you're an old

man, you can become the third taster.

I wonder how many third tasters Marcus
had across the course of his life.

So every meal you're
reminded that you could die.

Yeah, I think he actually did live very
close all the time to, to, to mortality

and to danger in a way that we don't,
we just eat our own food like idiots.

Yeah.

That's well, I don't feel like an
idiot, but I see what you're saying.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Just add that on top of just the
general 2000 years or whatever.

Yeah.

They were closer to all these.

Natural things.

Yeah.

Included.

Yeah.

Back then.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's fair.

You're right.

Maybe we have little cushy little
lives, but for some reason.

We still want to read this guy.

We still want to read this book.

It's still applicable.

I think it's all relative.

We had a little bit of ups and downs
and we need stoicism to protect us

against the tiny little turbulations
in our meaningless little happy lives.

I'm talking about your life.

Yeah.

Okay.

I was going to say I'm detecting a little
bit of what might feel like aimlessness

or like maybe you're not as full of
purpose or something because you're

a depiction of our life right now.

is more plush.

It's very, it's a little patronizing.

I feel like we have a meaningful life.

Kind of interesting.

Okay, when you say it like that,
you're, yeah, you sound convinced.

It's embarrassing to have to say it.

You're embarrassed to say it?

It's like a good, It makes
me think it was a joke.

Somebody told me once they were
like, I think they would do to.

They just thought this was a
funny thing to say to somebody

you don't know very well.

Which was to ask them if
people generally like them.

The premise of the joke being, basically,
there's no good response to that.

Because either you're like, no, in
which case yeah, cool, I bet, loser.

Or you have to be like, yeah, huh.

No, people do like me.

And you're having to defend
basic, like people generally like

you, basically likable concept.

It's like being asked are you okay?

Yeah.

It doesn't matter if you're okay.

There's no Now that you've
been asked, you're in a hole.

Are you okay?

It's bullshit.

I feel like you just did this to me.

Yeah, exactly.

Do you think your life's meaningful?

Do you think you're
finding some meaning there?

That's cute, yeah.

Okay.

That's good.

So we dive into it.

Let's do it.

With the asterisk of, we did not
make an effort to use these phrases

in conversation, but I guess we
can continue to keep our eye out.

Both for points we might use in
conversation for bonus points and

cool reputation on this podcast.

And also we are still on the hunt for
some, for a piece of wall decoration.

Yes.

Home decor.

Yes.

Something to cross stitch onto
a pillow or something like that.

For gifts it's the thought that matters.

Lovely.

So we thought about it and
it was a delicious thought.

Yes.

We mulled it around.

And then we just spit it out.

And then we just went on
with our lives happily.

But now we have a nice
memory of We're back.

Yes.

Okay, cool.

We are in book six and now we've made
a little bit of progress into it.

This will be our second episode
in book six and we are starting

with bullet point number nine.

Excellent.

Everything is brought about by
nature, not by anything beyond it,

or within it, or apart from it.

Classic.

Yep.

What what is the counter argument to this?

What is he debating against here?

Yeah.

Something is unnatural, yeah.

This is unjust.

Is it, is the idea that I come
home, I'm like, it's not fair

what's happening to me at work.

And that is Because an evil party
or whatever has done something that

violates the ways of the world.

Yeah.

And Marcus says, no, those
are the ways of the world.

Those are the ways of the world.

Yeah.

Yeah, that seems to be his thing.

Yeah, so this stuff that
you think is unfair.

Yeah, adjust your definition
of fairness, right?

Whatever notion of fairness you had
before was the wrong one because

all the stuff that happens to you
is the stuff that happens So I've

been trying to see I've been trying
to share this with upasana, honey.

You hear this Nothing is unfair.

You just need to adjust your concept
of fairness About that promotion you

didn't get this week seductive Concept.

Yes.

Nothing unfair has ever happened to you.

What a nice relatable guy.

You're welcome.

Yeah I To the extent that this sentiment
is could bring about comfort or warmth

and not just the coldness of hey deal
with it Buddy, I feel like there is

this you could be comforted by the
idea that it's like hey, this is

all of a system Yeah, like I am not
the victim of some You evil spirited

thing or whatever coming after me.

I am just merely a cog in a
great uncaring machine that

doesn't care what happens to me.

Which is, I guess that's better okay.

So actually, so I want to bring
something to today's reading as well.

And I have plenty of my own issues, but
I'd rather bring up my wife's issue,

which is that she didn't get promoted,
or she didn't get her an exceeds

rating on her performance review.

Okay.

This is a very relevant
concept to it, right?

Everything is brought on by nature.

So here's why I think it's
actually quite insightful.

So I think there's the sort
of, okay, you didn't get the

promotion you thought you deserved.

So maybe that's not fair.

Maybe you need to go, bang on some
balls and crack some skulls and

get the promotion you deserve.

Maybe you need to like work harder and
try to get, get this thing to happen.

Or maybe you recognize that
this is actually natural.

And, and there is a degree to
which it's bad to try to place your

desires on things you can't control.

And so maybe something that you can
change is not pushing yourself to

a degree where you feel like you're
so owed, you're owed this thing.

I think that's part of the reason it
feels so bad with all due respect.

Oopie busted her butt for this.

Yeah.

And.

And, it's natural for maybe a
larger organization that has a

lot of politics going on to not
recognize that, that sacrifice.

Yes, that is a part of the nature of
those organizations is to be constantly

somewhat miscalibrated and yes, yeah,
I think that totally makes sense.

It gets back, the thing you're
bringing up gets back to this

constant frustration that I have
with Marcus of He's got this clear.

Yeah, there are the
things you can control.

Yeah things you can't control, but
only he knows what it's their secret

Promoted it's a perfect example of
something that is ambiguously like in my

control Like there's a bunch of stuff.

I can yeah to improve the probability
that it's gonna happen Yeah, but

ultimately technically not in my control.

I think his argument would be what's
in your control is doing good work

Yeah, you can do the right thing.

Okay, but I There's four different
kinds of good work that I do in my job.

And one of them is just schmoozing
with the people who give me

performance reviews or whatever.

So yes.

Okay.

I like your you're making a good
argument on Marcus's behalf though.

Yeah.

And so I think that what's the rejoinder
is if it's good, if it's, if they're all

truly good options, any of them is fine.

Probably.

Yeah.

And then it's only the ones that.

Are actually not good that
you actually shouldn't do.

So just use your own mental assessment.

Yeah.

You have to be the judge of what
doing good work means so that you

can go to sleep at night knowing
you did a good job and all the

promos or accolades or whatever.

Those are just, those
are outta your control.

Yeah.

Let the score take care of itself.

This is like a version of Life though,
where like you can't communicate

with other people or something.

Yeah.

Like you can't just, you can't
ask for something or be like.

The idea is that you know everything
you have to know what's right.

You're operating with perfect, like
a perfect compass all the time.

Yeah.

I, okay, I like that little complication
you gave it though, I think.

That I think you're right, that his,
there's a reason he doesn't answer

this question that I keep asking about.

Okay, Marcus Bennett, what about
the things that are in your control?

Yeah.

And his point is Nothing.

Yes, it is like that.

And he, I keep saying
this over and over again.

I'm talking as him now.

Yeah.

there.

There are no, those things.

There aren't any, you, yeah.

It's like you, young Grasshopper,
you keep thinking that there's

a gray area, but there isn't.

Yes.

And then I keep being like, okay,
but what about the gray area?

Yeah.

And then he writes it again
in his little, that's funny.

Actually, in his little journal, he knew.

He knew that the reader would
not get it the first time.

Yeah.

That's why he keeps repeating himself.

Okay.

Maybe this book has.

3D chess though.

Yeah, more wisdom to it in the way
that it is constructed than I had

been initially getting it correct.

He's going to repeat this the exact number
of times you need to finally get it.

At the end, the last paragraph, the very
last, I just want to look at what it is.

The last word of this book is going
to be just the thing I needed.

Yeah, the final puzzle piece.

Okay, I like that little
insight we've just had though.

Yeah.

It is not that I think he is avoiding
answering the thing that I'm accusing

him of not really being able to answer.

This, his repetition and
failure to answer it.

Maybe he means it.

Is his answer to it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Delicious on a night where we
thought we didn't need much of you.

Hats off to your little 3d chess game.

That's off Marcus.

Yeah.

Okay.

Number 10.

This starts off with a little list,
but that has two options in it.

Option one is mixture,
interaction, dispersal.

Or, option two, unity, order, design.

Now suppose, option one, why would I
want to live in disorder and confusion?

Why would I care about anything
except the eventual dust to dust?

And why would I feel any anxiety?

Dispersal is certain.

Whatever I do or supposed to reverence,
serenity, faith in the power responsible.

Okay.

This is a little opaque, but I'm
reading this as two different

ways of explaining the world.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

And one of them is, it's it's a big soup
and it's all just you can't control.

Yeah.

It's almost a little backwards
because someone who thinks I don't

try to control the things you can't
control would see the world as make

sure dispersal interaction, right?

Say more about that.

I guess if you believe that it's
unity, order, and design, then you must

think that everything is explainable,
but things aren't explainable.

So how do you deal with that?

Or I don't, I think my understanding
of his thinking is that He does

think there's this big unity order
in design, but that we humans are

too feeble minded to like, see it all
that, that clothos pins are cloth,

but we're just the strand or whatever.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

So unity order design, you just don't
know what the quality of the order

might be a beautiful carpet or fabric
or quilt or whatever, or it could just

be like, yeah, horrible, whatever.

And he's saying.

Yeah.

Two's better, basically.

Interesting.

We should prefer to believe
that the world is made up of

pattern and order and design.

Another way to look at two
is just to reduce the scope

of unity, order, and design.

Just keep reducing it, until
you actually do control it.

I see.

Like the Jiro Dreams of Sushi
approach, where you're just like,

my job is to go in and make sushi.

Yes, if you narrow, yes.

Yes.

And Eventually.

Yes.

I examined close enough.

Yeah.

You find some, there will be
unity in order and design.

If you zoom in close enough, it's
some sort of yeah, Newtonian principle

of like edges are smooth if you just
zoom in on them enough or whatever.

Yeah.

And that's a better way to live.

Just dream of sushi.

Yeah.

Okay.

I like that way of looking at it.

Yeah.

I think that's consistent with
his thinking, which is also.

Don't waste your if the world is
feeling like option number one to you,

and it's all just feeling chaotic,
interaction, dispersal, and yeah,

I can't understand any of this.

Yeah.

Stop thinking like, don't, you're
wasting your time thinking about like

how crazy and complicated the world is.

It's not a productive thing to do.

You just feel overwhelmed or whatever.

Instead, find the ways
in which two is true.

You find your sushi thing, find, yeah.

Or even the more humble
thing still, which is just.

Okay, I'm a dumb little human, I don't
know how this all works, but I do know

how to roughly put one foot in front of
the other in the sort of Marcus y way of

just making one right decision in a row.

I like this reading This theme we're
coming across, which is just assume he

means very deeply everything he says.

Yeah.

No.

He means that it's just,
you don't understand this.

We can try all the gaps in things
that it feels like he's not

addressing are our misunderstanding.

Yeah.

Those gaps are you.

Yeah.

I agree.

I think that, that is a more interesting,
probably a more interesting reading.

Yeah.

I think that's, that is like
the good literature approach

of, you meet the author.

Way more than halfway whenever
you can find the opportunity to

and see what that does for you.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

All right.

So the new premise is he's a
genius, we're dumb, let's see

what we can make out of this.

Number 11.

When jarred, unavoidably, by
circumstances, revert at once

to yourself and don't lose the
rhythm more than you can help.

You'll have a better grasp of the
harmony if you keep on going back to it.

Whoa.

All right.

Very specific musical and musical.

Yeah.

I, okay.

I like this.

Yeah.

I think it makes sense to me
that this idea of returning

to yourself is very important.

His philosophy where if everything
is, I am the decisions I make

and that's all I am, then when
life throws you a curve ball.

Yeah, you better figure go back to
who you are because if you can get

spoiled by those Then you're nothing.

Yeah Don't lose the rhythm
more than you can help.

Yeah, don't get thrown Out of whack just
keep doing you were doing the right thing.

It was circumstance.

Yeah that jarred you unavoidably
couldn't help it Couldn't help it.

So just keep the rhythm.

Yep.

Try to just get right back
into that groove you were

in I dig it Yeah, it's nice.

It presupposes that you were
already doing the right thing.

Doing a good thing.

Yeah.

But I think his whole thing is,
that's certainly true for Marcus.

You are doing the right thing.

Yeah.

Just don't lose it.

Don't let yourself get thrown off.

It's a little bit rocking the
ocean a bit here of just yeah.

Don't let anything the world is
horrible and you're Yeah, and

you're, you should just be constant.

The rhythms.

Yes.

Yeah.

Which I think we've
pointed out in the past.

This is a more positive take than you
are a rock in the ocean or whatever.

But all of these just keep constant
while the world is buffeting you with

horrible stuff does have a kind of
toxic undertone to me of like Just hang

in there and suffer and deal with it.

Yeah, at least we're making music here.

Yeah, that's true.

You'll have a better, this
last sentence is interesting.

You'll have a better grasp of the harmony.

Harmony.

Yeah, harmony is an interesting word.

So the harmony is the high
pitch part of the song, right?

It's the it's when you have like multiple
pitches together at the same time.

That like add up to a sort of noise that
is more than the sum of their parts.

Got it.

So the harmony is usually the part
of the song that you remember.

The most, it's the most
recognizable part of the song.

Maybe.

It's it's often very satisfying.

It's right.

It's a, it's definitely
associated with beauty.

Okay.

Yeah, you'll have a better grasp of the
beauty if you keep going back to it.

But definitely beauty in the context
of this concept, like harmony.

You can use it in English to also
mean a system can be harmonic when

it is producing a thing that, again,
is more than the sum of its parts.

It's like when everything is
working perfectly together,

that's what harmony is.

You'll have a better grasp of, and
so that's how I interpret him meaning

it here, is like the harmony of the
whole fabric and system of life.

But you'll have a better
grasp, it is a little ambiguous

what he means by the harmony.

Here.

The rhythm and the harmony.

Yeah.

I can't help but apply
this back to pro opie's.

Lack of promotion.

Okay.

You're jarred unavoidably
by circumstances.

You receive a meets review.

You review.

Yeah.

You didn't get an exceeds.

Yeah.

Revert it once yourself.

Yeah, and your own values.

Don't lose the rhythm.

You're doing good work.

Yeah, don't worry I get the things
that you believe that you were

doing a job and yeah are true.

You were doing your job you could have
the reaction of Tear your hair out and say

yeah, everything needs to be different now
because yeah, basically what I was doing

before it didn't work Yeah, and this way
you'll have a better grasp of the harmony.

Yeah, but like just enjoy it more I
suppose the harmony If you keep on going

back to it's what is it's the rhythm I
parsed it as the harmony, but the rhythm

actually I think I like reading it as if
you keep going back to your Rhythm, you'll

have a better grasp of the harmony That
kind of makes more sense like musically

if you lose track of the rhythm then
the harmony is gonna be all messed up

Yeah, if you're contributing to it Okay.

Very poetic here.

Yeah.

Okay I'll say that as I'm understanding
it one more time at the end there.

I actually really like parsing it as the
rhythm there because it, yeah, the sense

is like, you have this sense of rhythm.

Yeah.

And life and stuff has this
whole harmony going on.

And if you get out of your own
rhythm that you're keeping, then

you miss out on life's heart.

Like you are out of sync
with life's harmony.

There's something very poetic about that
feeling of keeping a rhythm and how bad

it feels when you lose the rhythm and then
all of a sudden the song's happening, but

you're not sure when to tap your foot.

And yes, that is a cool metaphor.

Yeah.

He chooses his metaphors pretty Carefully,
because he seems to avoid them mostly.

But yeah this one still hits
2000 years later or whatever.

Number 12.

I love this.

If you had a stepmother and a real
mother, you would pay your respects

to your stepmother, yes, but it's
your real mother you'd go home to.

The court dot, and philosophy.

Keep returning to it
to rest in its embrace.

It's all that makes the
court and you endurable.

Okay, so the court is his stepmother
and the philosophy is his real mother.

Yes, I think that's right.

So keep coming back to your real mom.

Yes, you need to rest in the
embrace of your real mom.

And that's, what's going to make the step
relationship with your step mom endurable.

I feel like he just starts with the
analogy and then it's just, I hate my

court and I just want to be a philosopher.

The upshot of this is some
sort of dig at his step mom.

I can't help but read that first part.

And just immediately my mind
wants to argue with him.

Like it depends on what your
real mother was like, dude.

Or yeah, that's true.

Pay your respects to your stepmother.

Yeah.

Whatever.

Yeah.

I guess in the spirit, as we had just
established like one bullet point ago.

Yeah.

Meeting him generously
at more than halfway.

Fine.

I know what you mean.

Yeah.

You like your real mom better.

Sure.

Yeah.

And you like philosophy better,
but yeah, the last of this is

a hint at his mood right now.

Yeah.

Philosophy is all that makes
the court and you, and durable.

Wow.

Yeah.

He's having a tough time with his court.

Yeah.

And he's loving his philosophy.

He's enjoying this stuff.

The narrative, the sort of self portrayal.

Is very strongly in the direction
of I was this like, kid who loved

learning and philosophy and I had
these wonderful teachers and then I was

plucked up and I had to become them her.

Yeah.

That is, I think how he sees himself.

Yeah.

That's certainly seems, it sounds yes.

And now all you can do, you little
bookworm you is get these little, visits

with your prized cherished Philosophy.

Yeah, and you just have to make it
you have to get by on those little

tastes to make it This life you have
and you endurable you yeah endurable

to yourself is what's being a player I
guess like that you've become intolerable

to yourself without that philosophy.

That's an interesting sure.

I feel like we don't Sure.

Think as much in there.

I haven't thought so much in those
terms about he uses this philosophy

in order to be tolerable to himself.

Yeah.

I wonder if the current definition
of philosophy, the way that it, the

way that it sounds like philosophy
to me is it sounds right away.

I'm like, Oh, like nerd,
like esoteric Oh, bookworm.

Yeah.

I wonder if.

back then it was, yeah.

Maybe something more akin to I don't know,
like religion or something that's, yeah.

That's more like spiritual.

, yeah.

Or something that felt more
immediate to, to life too.

I feel like it, yeah.

The thing that I like a negative Yeah.

Connotation I have with philosophy
is that it often, it feels it's

not applicable, I guess it's, yeah.

Esoteric is the word.

It's dry.

It's like removed from Yeah.

It's like this sort of, yeah.

A study of a thing that is very
abstract, but I wonder, I think you're

onto something there where the word
philosophy or whatever word he might've

used might have felt more immediate.

We have that sense of it too in English,
but yeah, it's a secondary sense of

or even imagine replacing the word
philosophy with the word science.

Imagine if all of a sudden in this crazy
world, yeah, you couldn't find meaning.

And though you could explain everything,
and you should return to that.

That's the only thing that
will make your life durable.

That's a nice sub.

Yeah.

You could imagine, I don't know, all
sorts of whatever Thomas Edison or whoever

writing that in his journal, basically.

Yeah.

I think it's a good point that
philosophy, that this might sound a little

ridiculous to the modern here's because.

He sounds like such a, it's what it
sounds like to me is Paul Giamatti's

character and the holdovers, like
a total curmudgeon who just wants

to be left alone with his books.

I don't, I think you're right that may
not have scanned the same way to Marcus.

Yeah.

I also wonder how established at this
time, the concept of having a stepmother

and having a real mother, and obviously
you'd want to go back to your real mother.

Would everyone have nodded?

Yeah.

With that sentence or is that just him?

Yeah.

I have no sense of what, yeah, I was
going to say, I guess I'm curious that

he even has the concept of divorces.

Yeah, I really have no sense of what
the reputation of a stepmother was.

Yeah.

Historically, I guess like ever.

I only it feels like they're always evil.

It feels like stepmoms are the worst.

Yeah So we do we what are
the other bad stepmoms?

I feel like some fairy tale has a
it's always fairy tales Yeah, are

they stepmoms in the fairy tales?

I guess evil stepmother.

I think so.

That's like a cinderella thing
or something or snow white yeah.

Okay.

Yeah Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, that's that is that
the only archetypal I guess

that used to be true as well.

Yeah, that's a, that's eyeopening for me.

Yeah.

I would not have guessed that.

I wonder, again, we're always
positing translation questions.

Yeah, sure.

I wonder what the, if the word
really, what the actual word was.

What does, yeah, what does step, does
it just mean your father's girlfriend?

Yeah.

I don't know.

Yeah.

That is interesting.

Yeah, because they had marriage.

Yeah.

I have absolutely no
con Did they actually?

I don't know.

I said yeah, but I don't know.

They did.

Okay.

Yeah, because he had a wife.

We've talked about this.

But it was before all the
Christian it's before Yes.

Yeah, I don't know if what does Yes.

If I honestly know nothing about
the history of any of this.

The Greeks were very,
sexually adventurous.

Yeah, but, anyway, I don't know either.

But I do wonder how much of
this is lost in translation.

Yeah.

Or in history.

Yeah.

I would be very curious to learn
more, actually, about the history

of the institution of marriage.

Yeah.

I feel like, how is that not,
there's probably just a great

Wikipedia article on it or whatever.

Yeah.

But I know nothing about it.

Who got married first?

Yeah.

What's the invention of that concept?

Parents did it.

Okay, yeah, yeah, they do it.

Birds taught us to do it or whatever.

Yeah.

But who invented divorce?

Yeah.

I guess I, my only historical
association with that is you have

to write to the Pope for permission.

Yeah, exactly.

English and French Kings or whatever.

Yeah.

And then that's how you get like
Anglicanism and all that stuff.

I wonder if it was an artifact of
these like city state politics the

true institution of marriage, the
one we know today, it was like I

know you don't want to marry this.

I don't, I know you don't want to be
with this random person you've never

met, but it's important for the kingdom.

And so we're going to create
this institution of marriage.

That's so holy, like you
can't, you cannot escape it.

You have to write to the Pope and get
permission and yeah, you have to be

with them, whether you like it or not.

That would be interesting.

That seems, that's a very
plausible explanation to me.

If so, it's interesting that it became,
it would later be charged with so much

spiritual meaning and that it's, a union
between two people before God or whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah, that would be a funny sort of.

Or maybe not, or it
just makes sense, yeah.

It's just, it does seem like
probably at least the history of.

people in monogamous relationships
wanting to have some sort of tradition

associated with that and making it
like a, and some stability and a public

commitment to one another or whatever.

Yeah.

I wonder when the oldest where
the ring tradition comes from too.

What are the oldest wedding
bands that have been found in the

archeological record or whatever.

Yeah.

That, yeah.

Okay.

I have a Wikipedia hole to go down.

There we go.

Later tonight, . Okay.

Number 13.

Yep.

Like seeing roasted meat and other dishes
in front of you and suddenly realizing

this is a dead fish, a dead bird, a
dead pig, or that this noble vintage is

grape juice, and the purple robes are
sheep wool dyed with shellfish blood.

Wow.

Or making love, something rubbing
against your penis, a brief

seizure, and a little cloudy liquid.

Wow.

perceptions like that latching onto
things and piercing through them so

that we see what they really are.

That's what we need to do all the time.

all through our lives.

When things lay claim to our
trust, to lay them bare and see

how pointless they are to strip
away the legend that encrust them.

Pride is a master of deception.

When you think you're occupied in
the weightiest business, that's

when he has you in his spell.

And then a parenthetical,
compare Crates on Xenocrates.

I'm so glad you're reading this, Tom.

Okay.

The last parenthetical was
completely impenetrable.

Yeah, just, let's just
not even talk about it.

Yeah, okay.

Wow, I love this.

We get a penis mention!

Yes, I giggled, unfortunately,
while I was reading it.

Amazing, me too.

But, how could you not?

Yeah, a brief seizure and
a little cloudy liquid.

A brief seizure.

That might be our That's good stuff.

That might be our pillow A brief
seizure and a little cloudy liquid.

Certainly, yes.

Just something rubbing against your penis.

A brief seizure and a little cloudy
liquid embroidered onto a pillow.

Yeah, that's pretty good.

Yep.

Okay.

Cool.

Okay.

So his point is, See through it all.

See through it all, yeah.

Don't, yes.

Let everything be its, don't charge
anything with special meaning.

Yeah.

Because, yes, if you think that,
if you let yourself be tricked

that the stupid grape juice you're
drinking is important, noble wine.

Yeah.

Then you are at the mercy of the
people who give you, or like the

way by which you acquire that wine.

But if you can just say,
hey, it's grape juice.

Yeah, this is a concept as old as time.

This is the this too shall pass
ring of King Solomon or whatever.

This, he, whatever, he famously had a
ring that said, this too shall pass.

Yeah, it's a good tattoo or whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

So you can look at it in
good times and in bad.

Yeah.

It's always there with you.

It's always correct.

And it's always correct.

Yeah.

That's nice.

There's another version of that I've
heard before of just getting a tattoo

of the word sometimes, which is.

I, it feels like it's in
the same mental space to me.

Always.

No, it's like the tattoo is forever.

The forever, yes.

So it's ironic because it's a
tattoo and it's like expressing

the idea of impermanence.

Sure.

But sometimes it's also as a word
is like sometimes boiling down

that idea of this too shall pass.

You do a single word, like whatever you
think is always No, it's sometimes Wow.

Anyway that's my, association.

Very cool, Tom.

Do you have this tattoo?

I do not have this tattoo.

Although I'm not in the market for a
tattoo but if I was going to get a tattoo

that would be one worth thinking about.

Oh man, if you had a sometimes tattoo,
you would go straight to the top of,

you would be the top of, that's all
you, me and Oopie would talk about.

We would dine on that for months.

I do think that would be In the scheme
of tattoos, that one seems fun to me.

I don't want one.

Okay, alright, so this, do you
agree with this concept, Tom?

In moments of happiness and pride?

No.

No I have heard I see what To some degree.

I'm indignant about it a little bit, yeah.

Yeah.

I, like Personally, I like seeing roasted
meat and enjoying it without being like,

this is the flesh of a dead animal.

I'm like, I do know that eventually,
but I don't think it's good, or

I don't wish every time it was
presented to me, I was like, oh no.

This pleasurable thing I'm about to do.

It's actually pointless because it's
just from a place of a brief seizure.

Yeah, exactly.

And that feels like in some ways
it comes from a place of fear of

something, having power over you.

I think life is actually in
part about enjoying what, yeah.

And knowing, like recusing that fear,
which is as, and being like, yes, hello.

You are here.

I am not going to do everything I
can in my life to make you go away

Yeah, I'm gonna live with you.

Yeah, also enjoy the good stuff.

Yeah, this is Marcus the puppy this to
me this reads like Marcus was hurt that

one time and so now yeah, whenever he
enjoys some food He's this is that did

remember that this is just a dead bird.

Yeah, so what is that?

What is the hurt that leads
to this specific recognition?

It's that he used to be able to
get some delicious food, and now

he can't anymore because the supply
chain is all interrupted or whatever.

I don't know if it's literal.

Maybe it's literal.

Yeah, okay, but I'm just like,
let's try to like, flesh out

what it might have looked like.

Like his daughter dies, and he,
his brother dies, and Yeah okay.

Sorry.

Yeah no, I think that's probably true.

Obviously, yes, he would have
intense feelings about those.

You think he was writing
this in reaction to those?

Maybe when he became Emperor.

Maybe when he became Emperor, he
was like, Wow, I love this bird.

Yeah, this wine rules.

This wine the best shit.

Such cool wine.

Yeah.

And then, and then I
guess he became proud.

Pride overtook him.

Yeah.

Yeah, the point where he didn't
realize that well at the end of

the day like you're still gonna die
You're still gonna have all these

terrible things happen to you, right?

Yeah, let's talk about pride He's using
the word right here quite a lot And

that's not exactly like my objection
weird word was that this is this comes

from a place of fear or something like
that Yeah, but for him, it's coming

from a place of pride right and pride.

I think in the sort of name he's clearly
thinking that pride is that pride in

the sense of the seven deadly sins.

Yeah Yeah, all through our lives.

When things lay claim this, he
says, that's what we need to do all

the time, all through our lives.

When things lay claim to our trust to lay
them bare and see how pointless they are,

strip away the legend that encrusts them.

Yeah, that late claim to
our trust is interesting.

I don't totally know
what he means by that.

What's laying claim to his trust here.

The analogy I think of right away
is you buy a Porsche and now, and

you bought this this thing that
you're worried about now someone

might scratch it, it's a liability.

And now you, yeah.

And so just Don't, yeah.

Don't have things that lay claim to
your trust I, that you're proud of.

I see.

'cause they're all liabilities.

Yes.

Okay.

Strip away the legend that encrust them,
which I think is, I like that phrase, the

legend that en the legend that en encrust.

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay.

Yeah.

I like that, that all these fancy
things, it makes more sense with a

perm or a sort of a long term ish Good.

Like a Porsche.

Yeah.

It's harder to understand how
the fish is like this fish has.

Claimed my trust.

Yeah, but yeah, I suppose the seed
of the Emperor the taste of the fish.

Yeah.

Yeah, the Yeah, the extravagance of it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I say pride is a master of deception
when you think you're occupied in the

weightiest business That's when he has
you in his spell Sure, so you think that

the moment of I guess the higher you go
the harder you fall Is the sentiment.

Yeah.

And anytime you think you're
doing something important, now's

the time to have this thought.

Now it's you think, oh, this thing
you're doing a really big deal.

Yeah.

It's about dead fish and grape juice.

Who cares?

I get it.

I think it's, I think
it's true to some extent.

Yeah.

That part is that sort of,
don't let your head get too big.

Yeah.

Don't let your head get too big.

Like, those moments of happiness,
You're gonna still be happy even if

you think about how it's a dead bird
like it's not gonna ruin it for you

Yeah, I don't think you're making love
and you have a brief seizure I feel

like you'd be like, I don't want to
do this Thoughts that yeah are almost

intended to spoil the experience Okay.

So let's give him the benefit of the
doubt and assume that he's the puppy.

Who's just he loves this food.

He loves making love.

And there's no way he's not
going to love those things.

Yeah.

Just needs the counterbalance.

Just don't forget.

This is just a bird.

Yeah.

And that my robes.

Okay.

Can I talk?

I love that it's wool
dyed with shellfish blood.

That's so dark.

That's how you get the purple.

Oh my God.

Wow.

I guess that makes sense.

Yeah, how many shellfish do
you need to dye a whole robe?

It's a lot of blood.

Yeah, Sheep wool also often
doesn't smell as good.

A tough melange of ingredients there
from a smelter's point of view.

God, they must have smelled
horrible, these people.

Yeah, but I think we've
talked about that in the past.

We've talked about how to
deal with stinky people.

Stinky people!

I seem to remember not that long ago,
some real advice for, and I think the

advice was to level with them basically.

Hey, dude.

You're stinky, yeah.

Yes, but I think you had to appeal
to his reason I think was the key

takeaway from that entry good memory
Yeah, as opposed to I forget what else

humiliation I guess is right anger.

Yeah punishment.

Yeah spiritual assessment Okay.

This is nice.

So whenever you're super excited.

Yeah.

I like your puppy dog reading.

Cause otherwise it gets into the gross
stoicism of like gross, like depression.

Don't experience joy because
it's a danger to you.

Yeah.

Which I don't much care for.

But I agree with you that if
you think that if you could

take the joy for granted, yeah.

Then that then I could get on board.

Yeah.

Number 14.

Things ordinary people are impressed by
fall into the categories of things that

are held together by simple physics, like
stones or wood, or by natural growth.

Figs, vines, olives.

Okay.

This is one that I'm
having a tough time with.

Usually I can start nodding at some
point, and I have not reached the

point where I start nodding yet.

Okay, it goes on.

Those admired by more advanced minds.

Are held together by a living soul.

Flocks of sheep, herds of cows.

Okay?

Still more sophisticated people admire
what is guided by a rational mind.

Not the universal mind, but one admired
for its technical knowledge or for

some other skill, or just because
it happens to own a lot of slaves.

What do you want?

Okay, we, hold on.

We'll revisit this in a second.

To finish it still more.

Okay.

But those who revere that other mind,
the one we all share as citizens and as

humans aren't interested in other things.

Their focus is on the state of
their own minds to avoid all

selfishness and illogic and to work
with others to achieve that goal.

Okay.

So we've got four groups of people here.

Let's go through them.

Yeah.

Thank you, Tom.

Cause I'm still stuck on
happening to own a lot of slaves.

I think I get that, but let's see if
we can, let's get there from the box.

So ordinary people, again, this
is another, I wonder what the

comment, maybe ordinary meant
like something more negative.

Yeah.

It still has that sense now, but.

To me ordinary, the fact that he
thinks ordinary people are impressed

by either vines or wood, basically.

I love rock.

Yes.

Things held together by simple
physics or by natural growth.

And then, okay.

Then there's this next group of
people who have more advanced minds

than just, say, your ordinary person.

And those people admire the things that
are held together by a living soul.

And the two examples of that are flocks
of sheep and herds of cows, which I

already don't understand because it's
the thought that they have one soul.

They have one living soul.

Yeah.

Held together by a living soul.

Yeah, but it's not sheep and cows.

It's the groups.

Okay.

Fine.

Okay.

So there's slightly more advanced people.

Yes, and maybe he's positing that
it's possible that, I don't know

what his beliefs are in terms
of does a sheep have a soul.

But I think it's, he's possibly
positing here that as a group.

They have a soul.

There's, yes.

I love that concept.

There's a, yes.

Yeah.

It's two fifths of a harmony.

Yeah.

The sheeps on their own might
not be anything, but if you get a

group of sheeps together, hot damn.

All right.

So that's group of people.

Number two, these people
again, let's bear in mind.

These are folks who are not
impressed by stones and wood and

no, they don't care about that.

They give them a herd of cows
and that's heard of cows.

Now we're cooking with gas.

Yes.

Okay.

Alright.

Now there are still more
sophisticated think, oh my goodness.

Now I know you read our thinking.

Okay.

Those must be the two.

Is there more?

Okay.

Those are the two thirds of people.

Thank you Marcus.

Very helpful.

No, he goes on.

There are still more sophisticated people.

Wow.

And they admire what is
guided by a rational mind.

Amazing.

And by rational, what he means
is like a, some kind of mind that

has some sort of technical skill.

Or something like that.

It seems to be what he's saying.

Not the universal mind.

What is the universal mind?

That is what, okay, you've ruined
group number four because that's what

people in group number four revere,
which I think the universal mind is,

he has a lot of phrases for this,
but it is the order of the world.

It is like the thing that
guides all of nature.

I don't know that he's ever
articulated it as a mind before.

Yeah.

But okay.

So there's yes, You could be
entertained by rocks, you could be

entertained by flocks of sheep, and
the soul that is produced by those.

And then you could be entertained
by I think group number three is

architecture, or like a really
good sculptor, or whatever.

Something that like Someone
who owns a lot of slaves.

Or, yes.

Or something produced by someone
who owns a lot of slaves.

So I think the part of the point
he's making is like this third group,

Gets tricked a lot because actually
distinguishing like the products

of a technical mind versus just
the kind of people who can do a lot

of manual labor for free is hard.

No, so I don't think he's saying, I
think he is criticizing this third

group of people by saying they can get
duped by people who own a lot of slaves.

And then obviously he's referring
to himself in the fourth group.

Obviously.

There are these people who
revere the other mind by which

he means this universal mind.

The one that we all share
as humans and as citizens.

And when you got that, you're
not interested in rocks.

You don't care about rocks.

Flocks of sheep.

Yeah.

Your focus, interestingly, your focus, if
you love that, your focus is not on that

mind, but the state of your own mind.

And then yes his whole shtick, you avoid
all selfishness and illogic and you

work with others to achieve that goal.

I don't know what that goal is exactly,
but yeah, it is interesting that the top.

of the band is Thinking about yourself
like you're sitting your own mind.

Oh, yes, you think about yourself But
I think in a very specific way he's

saying here where you were interested.

Oh, it's not just
Optimizing your own mind.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, it feels like a kind of that's fair.

Yeah hierarchy sure sure.

Sure he's What he's describing in a way
is a form of like self actualization Yeah,

where once you've you Yeah, once you're
no longer impressed by all this other

stuff, you realize the only thing you
have to improve is the workings of your

own mind in accordance with its spirit.

Yeah, that's a good
reading, Maslow's Hierarchy.

I do think it's funny.

Just how Pointless.

These ordinary people are just show them
a rock and they're like, you can't help,

but just shit on these regular people.

Throw a couple punches
at how dumb everyone is.

Like stones or wood.

If he's going to do that, I like doing
it with way more layers than we need

to the kinds of it would have been
definitely fine to put the rocks and wood

people in the same group as the sheep
and cows people, but not to him, he's

no, those, the rocks and wood people
are, at least Three levels below me.

Yeah.

. Alright.

This I really enjoyed this one.

It's great.

I would I think in the, as we
move forward, I will be thinking

about which, when he refers to
ordinary people in the future.

We'll have a better concept of the kind
of drooling idiot that he has in his mind.

Tom, which one are you, huh?

I guess I'd like to think
I like vines and olives.

That's true, actually.

I feel like, yeah, what the thing that
he maybe doesn't know is that after

you achieve level 4, I think it's
possible, I think it's possible Bats!

I was thinking about that too.

Is you realize how cool figs,
vines, and olives really are.

That's true.

Yeah.

That's what he doesn't know yet.

It's a full circle.

He's just on his first loop through this.

Yeah.

Like a real noob.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, so I think, yeah, like you, I
think I'm possibly looping right back

around to number one right around now.

Yeah.

Number fifteen.

Some things are rushing into
existence, others out of it.

Some of what now exists is already gone.

Change and flux constantly
remake the world.

Just as the incessant progression
of time remakes eternity.

We find ourselves in a river.

Which of the things around us
should we value when none of

them can offer a firm foothold?

Like an attachment to a sparrow.

We glimpse it and it's gone.

Heartbreaking, Marcus.

And life itself.

Like the decoction of blood.

The drawing in of air.

We expel the power of
breathing we drew in at birth.

Just yesterday or the day before.

Breathing it out like the
air we exhale at each moment.

Wow, that's a poetic last sentence.

That we, when we die, not only
do we exhale, but we exhale

the power of breathing itself.

We like, somebody gave us a little bit
of breathing power for a while, and

eventually we just spit it back out.

Just yesterday or the day before, yeah.

We find ourselves in a river.

It's pretty yeah, that analogy
really clicks for people.

Yeah.

People really like that concept.

Pretty timeless description
of this philosophy.

Yeah.

I do.

He doesn't, he likes to ask a
rhetorical question and then

continue and not answer it.

Which of the things around us should
we value when none of them can

offer a firm foothold moving on?

Yeah.

Like an attachment to a sparrow.

We glimpsed into the spot.

That part really is hard.

Yes.

So tell me more about
why that's heartbreaking.

That one is just like a story on it.

Undo itself.

What does he fall into then?

Is he level two?

No, he's level.

Oh, it's just one sparrow.

It wasn't a flock of sparrows.

And again, he's, it's a progression.

Yeah.

So he might have, yes, he
used to be there but yes.

Okay.

He glimpsed it.

That one really makes me laugh, yes.

I like it because it is timeless,
sparrows are flitting around, who the

hell knows where that sparrow went, yeah.

Yeah, it's true.

He has done a great job overall, I have
to say, of picking metaphors and stuff

to talk about that has aged pretty well.

Fairly timeless.

I guess he makes some references to
other Stepmom stuff was, it was fine.

Even that is like a recognizable concept.

I guess humans are humans.

You could argue that we haven't changed
as much as we'd like to think we have.

Yeah, okay, but I mean We're still
into birds and Yeah, that's true,

but I think if you listened to this
podcast 2, 000 years from now or

whatever, there would be a bunch of
unintelligible stuff where we're talking

about I've had just like some modern
concepts that like, will not age well.

And maybe the translator is smoothing out
the edges of okay, they don't have this

concept, but I'll give, I'll substitute
with the modern concept or whatever.

But it seems I guess I'm just impressed
that there's never a moment where

I'm like, what the hell are you even
fundamentally talking about here?

It's wild that we actually,
now that I think about it, it's

wild how much we understand.

Like wine.

We're just like, Oh yeah.

Wine.

Yeah.

I know what that is.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Even okay, how did they die?

We know he had purple Emperor's robes.

What was all that about?

Oh, sheeps wool plus shelf.

Okay, cool.

I could go do that right now.

Thank you.

Check.

Yeah.

It's wild that we, so yeah, anyway,
that's like a passage of time thing.

Maybe in 2000 years, everyone's still
drinking wine and it all makes sense.

Sure.

iPads, whatever gadgets.

Yeah.

Remember we're thinking back.

It's hard to think forward.

Yeah.

But it's easier to think back.

Yes.

For sure.

I guess one approach is, he didn't have
any, he couldn't have read any writing

that was 2, 000 years older than him.

But if we wanted to were they
writing 2, 000 years before?

They were.

Wow, okay.

Yeah, the Egyptians are as far from
Marcus as they as Marcus is from us.

And they have writing.

Yes.

They at least had hieroglyphics.

They had hieroglyphics.

Yeah, I see.

Okay, yep.

Okay what I was positing is if you want
to write a book that ages that well, Yeah.

One thing you can do is look that
far into the past and say, Okay,

what did they have that I still have?

Sure, sure.

Pretty decent guess that a lot of
that stuff will still be, Yeah.

Around.

Yeah.

Yeah, so okay, what if we proceeded even
the concept of a podcast is gonna be

difficult to translate here But what if
we tried to proceed with this podcast?

Only using concepts that we think
would have been available tomorrow's.

Yeah, exactly I feel like that would
actually be very difficult That it

would it's hard to throw away all the
modern concepts that we have and if

I mean what we're constantly doing is
comparing his Take to the modern one.

Yeah.

Okay.

Maybe it's not that worthwhile.

I don't actually care.

No, it's interesting.

I don't care if anyone listens to this
podcast now, not to mention 2000 years.

So come on, Tom.

All right.

So let's try to understand this.

Okay.

So some things are so
rushing into existence.

Others are rushing out of it.

What exists is already gone.

I actually really liked that line.

Yeah.

What some of what now
exists is already gone.

How do you make sense of that?

It's just.

Things happen so fast.

It's like by the time you blink your eye.

Yeah.

I like stuff like that
because it is fascinating.

In this case, it's literally
like a, an oxymoron or whatever a

contradictory sentence, but it's like
a, I just learned the phrase for this.

An Irish bowl.

Have you ever heard
that, that phrase before?

It's like a sentence that is, untrue on
its surface, like it has a literal meaning

that is untrue, but somehow it conveys a
non literal truth that is true, basically.

Some of what now exists is already
gone, I think is an example of that.

It's not literally true.

Because There's no such thing as gone, or?

If there is a set of things,
you fix a moment in time.

Yeah.

There is a set of things
that exist at that time.

Yeah.

It can't, if gone means
it doesn't exist anymore.

Yeah.

That's not true.

It just It's a logical contradiction.

Yeah.

Matter cannot, Things can't
both exist and not exist.

Sure.

That's an example of
what I'm talking about.

Nice, Irish bowl, look at you.

Somebody taught me a funny one, but
now, and then they were like, that's an

Irish bowl, and I was like, what's that?

But now I don't remember
what the funny one is.

Maybe for our next episode I'll
try to remember a funny Irish

bowl that we can introduce.

I think somebody, okay, in explaining
that phrase, is this right?

Okay, so one example is, for some reason,
the reason it's called an Irish bowl, for

some reason, I don't, okay, I don't know.

I don't know if I can totally
make sense of this, but apparently

there's a longer phrase, which is
an Irish bowl is always pregnant.

And I, so I think what that means
is, and this is an example, right?

Okay.

So it's an example of
an Irish bowl itself.

That phrase is because
it's not literally true.

A bowl can't be pregnant.

It certainly can't always be pregnant.

Sure.

But pregnant has this other sense of
something can be pregnant with meaning.

So an Irish bowl is, an Irish
bowl, these, this type of phrase,

an Irish bowl, is always charged
with this other sort of meaning.

So that's, an Irish bowl
is an example of an act.

That's so cool.

Oh my gosh.

An Irish bowl.

But there's other good,
funny ones that I, I think.

But so many English majors just giggle
themselves to sleep on that one.

Yes, exactly, yes.

I love it.

I think that we have some sort
of, I'm gonna, I'll keep an eye

out for them, cause I also think
we have some common phrases.

We all know that sort of fit in
this category too, where we know

it's not true, but by saying it,
you're conveying something else.

Okay, I, yeah.

Anyway, that's just a little
plug for the I could eat a horse.

That one It's a big snatch, it's a
big It's a bit on the nose, it's very

similar to the concept of the bulls.

But I guess it doesn't
really convey a deep meaning.

I guess it does convey deep meaning, Tom.

Yeah, it's usually, I think,
they're a little bit more grandiose.

Grandiose?

Than, I'm hungry.

Very hungry.

Okay.

Yeah.

I'll keep thinking.

Okay, alright.

Yeah, if you come across a good
Irish bowl, we can have a recurring

segment on this podcast where we
share Irish bowls with one another.

Fantastic.

Okay.

We have a really big one ahead of us here.

Number 16.

I think let's do it and then maybe
that'll be the end of the episode.

Sounds good.

Let's do it.

Interrupt me while I read this because
it's over a page long on my iPad here.

Will do.

It's a longer one.

Okay.

What is it in ourselves
that we should prize?

Not just transpiration,
even plants do that.

What?

I think trans Transpiration?

What is that?

I think transpire, or
something transpires.

Oh!

It just means Just being, existing.

Passing time, yeah, exactly, yeah.

Okay, so we shouldn't prize
that we Not just transpiration,

because Are passing time.

Because both plants and us do that.

And plants suck!

In addition to other stuff.

We already established that.

Unimaginable.

He's doing a rhetorical thing here.

So he says not just transpiration
because he even plans to do that.

Okay.

Or respiration because even
beasts and wild animals breathe.

This guy's a genius.

Or being struck by passing thoughts.

I felt like he was doing a cool,
like rhymy construction thing, right?

That's transpiration and respiration.

Nope.

Just, I guess it's hard to rhyme in a
different language or being struck by

passing thoughts or jerked like a puppet.

By your own impulses.

That's a cool yes.

Visual, but I'm not
especially tempted by the by.

What is it that I should buy for myself?

I guess I like that I'm jerked around
like a puppet by my own impulses.

Yeah.

He doesn't, he really doesn't
construct a very strong straw man here.

It's just, it's He's
losing the thread too.

Yeah.

He's on, he gets it a little bit.

Yeah.

Like you could be impressed with I'm here,
I'm alive, I'm breathing, but then it

really, I'm struck by passing thoughts.

Yeah.

I'm moving, or moving in herds, or
eating and relieving yourself afterwards.

That's amazing.

That's what I love about myself.

So none of those things are the
things that we should prize.

Okay, so then what is it, Tom?

So then what should I be?

Yeah.

Then what is to be prized?

Okay.

An audience clapping, question mark?

No.

Oh, more rhetoricals.

No more than the clacking
of their tongues.

Which is all that public
praise amounts to.

A clacking of tongues.

I like that.

I wouldn't possibly be impressed
with a clacking of tongues.

He's lost me right now.

If an audience did that for me, I'd be
like, Hey, okay, I did something here.

But it's not that, Tom.

Okay.

Again, you, but not for a good reason.

He says audience clapping is
equal to clacking of tongues.

But my point is both of them, whatever.

But okay, fine.

This point is that
public praise is nothing.

It's just a clacking of tongues.

Okay.

So we throw out other
people's recognition.

What's left for us to prize.

Okay.

Stop.

Pause right there.

Yes.

What is it going to be Tom?

Serenity of mind.

Yeah.

Just doing the right, do the right thing.

Yes.

Knowing ourselves.

Yeah, yeah.

Living in accordance with nature.

Let's find out if we
could predict it or not.

Let's see if he surprises us.

What's left for us to prize?

I think it's this.

Wow, very all of a sudden he's not sure.

To do, and not do, what
we were designed for.

That's the goal of all trades, all
arts, and what each of them aims at.

That the thing they create should
do what it was designed to do.

The nursery man who cares for the vines.

The horse trainer.

The dog breeder.

This is what they aim at.

And teaching and education, what
else are they trying to accomplish?

So that's what we should prize.

Hold onto that and you won't be
tempted to aim at anything else.

Yeah.

And if you can't stop prizing a lot of
other things, then you'll never be free.

Free, independent, imperturbable.

Yeah.

Because you'll always be envious and
jealous, afraid that people might

come and take it all away from you.

Plotting against those who have
them, those things you prize.

People who need those things are
bound to be a mess and bound to take

out their frustrations on the gods.

Whereas to respect your own mind, to
prize it, will leave you satisfied with

your own self, integrated into your
community and in tune with what the

gods, in tune with the gods as well.

Embracing what they allot
you and what they ordain.

I love that.

This is great.

It's very profound.

Yeah.

And I agree.

Yeah, me too.

This one really reminds me of a piece
of writing that was very influential

to me like end of high school early
college, which was this commencement

speech that David Foster Wallace gave at
Kenyon College Do you remember that one?

It's called This is Water
and it's like it's Yeah

Nice if lost, not has it?

Yeah.

It's it's a great piece of writing.

It's, like the big thrust of it is
about like how, like he tells this joke

about, about like fish and basically
these, two dumb fish are swimming along.

They're little young fish and they
meet an older fish, and the older

fish says, how's the water boys?

And then they, I don't know.

They that, that they just swim past him.

And then one says to the other.

What the hell is water?

Yeah.

And like the point being that like
they're oblivious to this thing

that's surrounding them basically.

Yeah.

And that the thrust of his
commencement speech is about liberal

arts educations help you like
basically become aware of the water,

see the water that surrounds you.

But the thing that I'm also remember
him talking about in that essay is about

how there are all these things in modern
life that are tempting to worship.

That like we live in this secular time
where religion is not that popular but

so people build worship of intelligence
or attractiveness or Like excitement

entertaining this but the point that he
makes is that most of those things If

you worship them in his words will eat
you alive that if you're if you worship

intelligence Then you're always going to
be afraid that you're not smart enough

that you're a fraud Or if you worship
attractiveness, then you're always going

to feel ugly that kind of thing That's
what I get from Marcus here too, where his

point here is that worshiping your mind in
the way that he wants to is the healthiest

alternative because all those other
things you might worship can get taken

away from you and then you're screwed.

And this is the one thing that
where that can never happen, which

I think is a true and lovely point.

And it's actually like one of the better
arguments on behalf of stoicism that I

don't think he's made at all, basically up
until this point that you are cultivating

a thing you can't I like it a lot.

Yeah.

I think a lot of, I think this
is, we've been triangulating

towards this since the beginning.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Do Your Job, basically, is the, Jiro
Dreams of Sushi, all that stuff.

Yeah.

Uh, and that, Yeah.

If you can focus on doing
that, and love doing that.

It's not just that's good and satisfying
in its own right, but also it protects

you from all this other dangerous stuff.

And so it's yeah, you get the
kind of safety that all the other

warships are pretending to offer you.

But in truth they're not.

Yeah.

The David Foster Wallace version
of this is a little bit more, it

feels like he's at least putting up.

More enticing scarecrow here.

The examples he gives it by Transformation
and respiration are not the things

I but like this idea that I would
be value intelligence And then

it's gonna eat me all that value is
gonna be alive is really compelling.

I can see that being totally
Yes Something that I would do.

Yes.

I agree with you I wish Marcus
was making a slightly better

argument at the beginning.

Yeah, I drew where he was Like, yeah.

Tempted by the actual thing.

Like he gets there with an audience
clapping, you start to be in a place of

okay, yes, you're talking about adoration.

Is that something we should prize?

That he should just edit out
everything before that, frankly.

No that's but I think what's left
for us to prize to do and not do what

we were designed for is lovely and
elegant and yeah, that's nice stuff.

Marcus.

Are there ways in which this advice could
apply to you in your life right now, Tim?

I think, uh, I think this is maybe I'm
getting more animated about this one

because I feel like it's something I
already have wrestled with a lot, and

a point I really like from this David
Foster Wallace thing, where I think, I

see it in my own life, where I, as a young
person, Really did worship intelligence.

I think it was part of
our early friendship too.

I mean in a good way Yeah, that
I think was you know, right?

Yeah the time Yeah, but we did like
our whole a lot of our friendship was

about this sort of like Competitive
worship of intelligence in a way

and I think In some ways that you
went to the most intelligent path.

Yes, totally.

So I just doctor, I kept going
down that road being like,

yeah, this is the thing, right?

This is the most important thing in life.

And did it eat me alive?

Yeah, a little bit.

Yeah.

I escaped, but I think there's some
deep truth to that, that you should

be careful what you choose to worship.

I think really, And that yes, a
lot of things we take for granted.

We might not think of them as the
things we worship in life, but

the other point that David Foster
Wallace makes is everybody worships.

You like, yeah, there's not
participating is not an option.

Basically.

You're going to be, which
I think is true and scary.

When he talks about it in
the speech, it's scary.

And then he talks about how
what you can do if you're lucky.

And I, he articulate, articulates
it in terms of like liberal arts

education, but I think it's in, I'm
in keeping with Marcus's thoughts too.

. Whereas if you cultivate habits of
mine or whatever, you at least can

see what the options available to are.

You're aware of You can Yes.

You, what you're doing, you ultimately
see the water that you're in.

Sure.

Which you might otherwise spend
your whole life not seeing.

Yeah.

So yes.

Anyway, this is probably as
excited and as on board with

Marcus's stuff as I have been.

That was really insightful actually.

The entire book.

I like this part of where he's going
and I think it's at least possible

that a good old DFW liked this portion.

It feels like portions of this feel
very similar to me to that speech.

So I wonder if there was
a relationship at all.

That's nice.

Alright.

Shall we wrap it up?

Let's wrap it up.

Thank you, Tom.

Cool.

See ya.

Yeah, goodnight.

Bye.

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