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This episode of TACtile introduces our series on the LANE’s cornerstones. The cornerstones include Emergence, Popular Education, Design Justice, and Racial Justice. LANE embodies these core values as a way to practice equity.
This episode Sage talks with adrienne maree brown, facilitator for liberation movements and author of the book “Emergent Strategy: Shaping Change, Changing Worlds” and the newly released “Pleasure Activism: The Politics of Feeling Good”, about LANE’s cornerstone, Emergence and how changing the internal impacts the external.
TACtile is the podcast for Leveraging a Network for Equity (LANE) a program of the National Performance Network. This podcast discusses practical tools and concepts designed to transform the field of Arts and Culture towards equity and justice. This podcast is produced by LANE Cohort members, Sage Crump and is edited by Jazz Franklin.
Sage Crump: Thank you for tuning into TACtile, a practical guide to transforming art and culture. This is the podcast of Leveraging A Network for Equity--LANE. A Program of the National Performance Network. LANE supports arts organizations of color and rural organizations with time and resources to grow their infrastructure in ways that are culturally authentic and moves the field towards justice. I'm your host, Sage Crump, programs specialist for LANE.
Music Introduction: (sung) Ain't gonna let nobody turn me 'round. I'm gonna keep on a walking. Keep on a talking. Marching up to freedom land. Ain't gonna let no jailhouse turn me around.
SC: On today's podcast, we're talking with writer, facilitator of social justice movements, author of Emergent Strategies, and podcaster of How to Survive the End of the World, adrienne maree brown.
adrienne maree brown: Bup bup bu-up!
SC: (laugh) (imitate air horn).
amb: I was like, I'm my own hype human.
SC: I got you on that. Absolutely. That's by way of so many introductions about what you--how you show up in the world in some ways--. Are there things I didn't mention that you're like, People should know this about me who don't know me, who may be meeting you--
amb: Oh!
SC: --for the first time.
amb: Gosh. Well, I live in Detroit, and am, like, a lover of Detroit. That's--. And was shaped by Grace Lee Boggs, like, she was one of my mentors. Kind of by the culture of "transform yourself to transform the world" that exists here. I'm working on a book that's coming out in February called Pleasure Activism, and it's really--. Feels very related to Emergent Strategy and to the other work I've done, but it's just basically that, you know, we need to make justice and liberation some of the most pleasurable experiences that we can have as humans, so how do we look at the places that we do feel pleasure, give ourselves more permission, give ourselves more honesty, and recognize that's part of our nature. (2:15) And using for good, so. So yes.
SC: I see how that's related to emergent strategies and this idea of creating more possibilities, right, like.
amb: Exactly.
SC: We create so many possibilities, and how many of them can feel so good.
amb: It feels so good. It feels so good to be with people who are possibility-oriented also. I've really been noticing that lately when I'm around folks who are either scarcity oriented, scarcity-minded, scarcity-hearted, and, and that brings a lot of negativity. You know, and it's like, life is already hard enough, like, life is like giving you the most already, so how do we, instead of leaning into it, how do we actually lean towards possibility and cultivate it with a lot of attention. So. Yes. That is my feelings and my thoughts. It's all I care about. (both laugh). Oh, and I'm a huge, huge fan of Steven Universe, that might be another thing people should know. I think it's the most important resilience practice that people could engage in right now is, like, watching this little queer show about a gem.
SC: So, one of the things that--. There are a couple of questions that I wanna ask everyone as a part of this podcast series, and you being the first person is super exciting, because the question is, How do you believe change happens?
amb: Mmm. Love that. I believe that change happens slowly and constantly. So that we're always in a state of change, that change is constantly happening. I believe that change happens as it's needed, and as it's time, and that sometimes we're not ready for it. Like, sometimes we're like, Oh, you know. And, and it could be time, like, I don't say that in a positive or negative way if that makes sense. (4:21) Like, there's changes that happens that I like; there's changes that happen that I really don't like. And a lot of times I've been like, Oh, how do I--. What makes a difference is that change is something that's in our hands. That we actually make change. And that everything that is sentient on this planet is making change. And things, you know, I'm like, and wind is making change, and all these other these things, so I'm just like, it's just constantly happening, and then we are part of it. And when it comes to communities, when it comes to societies, and human structures of change making, I really think that change happens in collective ways. Or changes that last. Changes that are accountable and, like, make sense for our species. Those tend to happen in collective ways. And I think it's really important to keep that in mind, cause a lot of times, you know, I think folks are like, I'll be a mad genius, and I'll be out here making change by myself. And not seeing, like, the millions of hands that are required to create change. And then I think the last thing is I think that change happens--. Real change happens very deeply. So I think it's, you know, it's differently, like, from reorganizing, like, what do they call it, sort of, what's on the surface of life? You know you can sort of re-organize your--. I just re-organized my house and moved my bedroom from the back to the front of the house.
SC: Nice.
amb: And so it's like, Oh, you know, I--. I can create this change in the house; I could snap it back very easily. I didn't, like, change the structure of the building. So I think it's like, also having a sense of what are the changes that are possible; what are the changes you have agency over; and, like, what is real, long term change, versus, like, short, surface level change. And, and I'm much more focused on the former than the latter in my work.
SC:I, I appreciate the, the sharing about your bedroom. Can't wait to see it.
amb: I know!
SC: Because this, this idea of the apartment, the space is still the same, but you've moved some things around, and when I think about change like we're talking about, LANE, which is around organizations and how they function, and their relationships to creating change in the world, sometimes it feels like there are definitive boundaries. (6:48) Right, like, we have this building, we have this space. And how then, can change, actually, change, which is constantly happening, being shaped intentionally inside the walls that you currently have? Like, how do the walls not become definitive of what can happen inside of them? You know.
amb: Yeah. I mean, i get really interested in, like, structural shifts, right? And, like, you know, not to say things aren't different. Like, changing where my bedroom is is really changing my experience of my home. And I've been going through a period of healing where it's, like, very comforting to me to have this, like, smaller little room, right? And there's certain things about it that I'm like, Oh, this feels right. This feels right to me. But I think a lot of times I see this in organizations where folks confuse the surface for the structural. And so, it will be like, well, we want more diversity; we changed the face of the person who's running the organization, but we stuck them into a hierarchical system that was reliant on funder directives, and so, and then we're surprised that everything didn't change and suddenly the organization wasn't, like, deeply accountable to the community or deeply trusted by the community. You know, we're like, well, what's going on? Like, we got a Black ED. Or we got a this or that, right?
SC: Mm-hmm.
amb: And I think that communities can sense when something is not really for them or driven by their desires. You know, they might get hoodwinked once or twice, but it's hard to keep pulling that off. And so, that's one of the things I always think about is, like, What are the changes that will really be meaningful to the community I'm a part of. And it's one of the things that actually hems me up a lot around gentrification stuff. (8:42) Because I feel like sometimes we get really caught in stories of, like, pushing back on gentrification that don't include, like, listening to the community and making sure that that push back really centers what they want to happen in a space. So, I've seen this happen in Detroit, you know, where we're like, No! You know, this--. We don't want this, we don't want that. And then, when I talk to folks who are like, We've been living in his community for a long time, and we're actually really excited about some of these changes, and that doesn't mean we don't wanna shape it to be much more oriented towards what we have, but I think we get this binary thinking about the changes instead of being like, Oh, like, you know, some of these changes have really resulted in more jobs. How do we make sure that we are, we're in a discourse that includes thinking about how more jobs are gonna come to the community, right? And I think that's when organizers hit the sweet spot where they are like, We're listening to what it is you need, and we're also paying attention to the larger patterns of how change and power move, and we're finding the place in the middle where justice can actually grow. And where we can help our communities see themselves more clearly, you know? It's a lot to balance, but I think it's really important rather than just pushing back on changes that don't originate with us. Do you know what I mean?
SC: I know exactly what you mean, and I--, I feel like you've hit the sweet spot of why I love talking with you so much is the, the getting past the binaries of, like, this either/or option, but what is the nuance and the complexity that we're actually looking at, and how do we work on the level of complexity and not feel, due to urgency or other reasons, pulled out of that, you know, and to like, Oh, we're just gonna do this one little thing, or this thing, and it's not that--
amb: Yes.
SC: --important, but there are all these layers at play.
amb: Right. Like, I think focus is, like, mind blowingly important, but I also think that, like, reducing things can really very quickly turn them into a lie, you know? And suddenly we find ourselves saying things that are not true to our communities and not true to ourselves, and, you know, we do this with like New Years Eve resolutions and stuff. (10:57) Right, it's just like, I just need to make a change. It's gotta be like this. And we don't take into account, you know, what's actually been happening with our lives and, and what is that unhealthy behavior attending to or taking care of?
SC: And it's funny, because I think there's this moment of trying to figure out how to engage those things that we feel like are, are problematic for us, in a way that doesn't make us the bad people, right, like. How do you think about this idea? You mentioned it earlier of like, transform yourself; transform the world, and not continue to participate in the way the world reduces you or undervalues you.
amb: Yeah, I mean, I feel like most of my adult life has been, luckily, you know, kind of focused on that work. This work of saying, like, Oh, what, what the world, what the world is up to for women like myself, for people who are, you know, who are not born into the upper one percent, right. If we just start there, like, Oh. What I'm expected to do, and what the world has set up for me is--. (12:10) You know, there's a capitalist system in place, and I'm supposed to be somewhere in, like, the service realm of that system. Maybe not quite working as a made for someone, maybe not domestic service, but other kinds of service, like, I'm still supposed to be like part of someone else's dreams coming true. And for me, as a woman, as a Black woman, as a queer woman, to instead say, I'm really interested in my own dreams and manifesting my own dreams, that's already, like, subversive, and then, and then I--, I kind of layer onto that, because I'm like, I'm not even interested in, like, monetary gain as the dream that I'm trying to pursue, even though sometimes I'm like, Oh, it would be nice. yOu know, I'm like, Oh, the way I measure what I think of as my success or whatever is, is very distinct. And that's pushing back against, like, what the systems would say, and in order to get to a place where I thought that was possible, I had to really transform certain things inside myself. Right? So I had to look inside myself and be like, Who told me what success means? And why did I choose to believe them? And do I still believe them? And I have to stop being disappointed that I'm not making a gazillion dollars for doing the work that I do. I have to start instead looking for markers that reflect the world that I wanna be a part of. I had to really change that in myself.
SC: One of the things that we're trying to do in LANE is, is reframe that. That that--.
amb: Yeah.
SC: Our organizations are amazing, like, the fact that they have survived as long as they have. The fact that, regardless of their budget sizes, there's so much to learn. So much to learn that folks that have access to financial resources and staff and those kinds of things actually want to learn from, and really trying to, to uplift those. But part of that has been pulling that out of the organizations ourselves. In order to say that to somebody else. And it sounds like--. (14:19)
amb: Because it's like they can't see it in themselves?
SC: Exactly. Yeah.
amb: Yeah.
SC: I remember we were in one meeting, and one of the organizations was like, Wait, I have intellectual capital? Wait, I have this thing?
amb: Yes.
SC: It was like, yeah, you have this thing to offer. Right?
amb: So good.
SC: And the ways in which you describe it as your work through the world as an individual also feels like the multiple ways we're trying to do it with LANE, and one of the things we've used is this tagline, called "See Leaders Make Change." And sort of circling around, back a little bit, to when you were talking about intention. I'm curious how that phrase lands for you, like, "See Leaders Make Change." Like, do you have thoughts on leadership and change?
amb: Yeah. I mean, I think that--. I think there's something. Is it--? I'm like, is this see, S-E-E?
SC: It is see "s-e-e" leaders make change.
amb: You know I have this thing with the ocean, so I was like, lemme just make sure it's not, like, leaders of the sea, and we're talking about merpeople, cause I'm also here for that.
SC: That makes me wanna do a whole new analogy.
amb: I mean, I think that--. You're like, Well wait a second. I mean, I love this idea that you're inviting folks to, to watch how change happens. And that part of what leadership is is moving past what's already happened. Like, moving past the possible, and actually changing the conditions. And, you know, for--, to me, what a great organizer is is someone who's making material changes for their people that align with what those people envision for themselves, while also continuously setting the bar higher and higher for what humans can do and what a community can do. (16:01) So I love it as an invitation, and then I think there's something around, like, who makes change, and like, being able to point out like, like, you know, people are, are making change all the time. Like, people are creating change all the time. And so then, I think there’s something about, like, leadership means doing it on purpose. Right, like, it’s like, Ohhh, like I recognize that every action that I engage in is changing the world around me, changing my relationships, changing what's possible, and I'm not gonna mess around with that miraculous power, I'm gonna actually use it for good, and lead people. (laugh). So, I--. I see that so often where folks, like--. It's like walking around with a magic wand and just kind of tossing it willy nilly all over the place, like, not recognizing, like, you're changing things, like, you have a funky mood and you walk into the office that you share with other people and you haven't attended to what's going on, and you don't own it and take responsibility, like, here's what's up, right, like, you've put that funk on everybody. It's basically like you curse everybody's day. I think communities can get impacted, too, you know, organizations go through moments of organizational beef and tension and all of a sudden you've created a funk that the community has to, like, sense and figure out because they can't--. You know, they don't know.
SC: Yes.
amb: So, yeah. Those are some of my initial thoughts on hearing it. And, do you feel like the leaders that you're working with are super aligned, like, we know what kind of changes we're making?
SC: We do. I think this, the--. The layers of change are interesting, right? Cause they work together as a body of six organizations in a cohort, but they are all also each individuals, like, each individual organization, and then, inside the organizations are the individual people who run it, right? So, this alignment around understanding how we can collectively impact the material conditions for everyone is aligned. Like, we--. We're like, yes. This is one of the things we want to do. We don't want to continue to be inside the same system. We want to change the system. (18:21)
amb: yes. That's so good.
SC: And where, where it becomes exciting to me is that you get to dig into a level of complexity of where each person and each organization is positioned. This question of positionality is something I've been playing around with a lot in my mind. Around, like, what is--. And it's a phrase I learned from you that I'm gonna offer back. (amb laughs). "The most elegant next step," right?
amb: Ooooh!
SC: Not the same step for everyone.
amb: No, it's not the same step for everyone. And I got that phrase from a friend, too. It was one of those things that you hear, and as soon as you hear it it's like, boom. Where is it? I only wanna take those kind of steps.
SC: Exactly.
amb: And I think that positionality--. Tell me a little bit about what you're seeing with your leaders around positionality.
SC: In thinking about how to impact a larger system, I think about the different ways--. I think about it as an ecosystem, Right? So, Some folks have access to soil, some folks have access to water, you know? Some folks have access to soil, some folks have access to the seeds. And there--, the work is in our ability to connect these things and then align, align all of them at, at a time that they can have the most effect with each other. Right?
amb: Mm-hmm.
SC: And so, when I think about. When we think about particularly the arts and culture field, some folks have deep relationships and community and can access that, and can teach others how to make sure that the community's voice is really relevant. Some people have relationships with funders and, you know, can bring them along, and access to racial equity, justice. Some people have, are teaching all of us around, like, organizational practices of wellness, how do you care for yourself and your people. How do you put all of these ingredients into this gumbo we're calling LANE slash transformation of the field, right?
amb: Mm-hmm. (20:21) The gumbo ecosystem.
SC: The gumbo ecosystem. I feel like I need to make a visual of that.
amb: Yes please.
SC: Delicious. Sounds delicious.
amb: I'm like, I wanna be the andouille sausage.
SC: You can be. You are absolutely the sausage in the gumbo.
amb: Thank you.
SC: And so I think--.
amb: Dreams come true.
SC: I gotta make you a pot of gumbo next time you come.
amb: Yes. I'm so here for that.
SC: I'm curious if there are folks out there in the world that are, are inspiring to you or feel
like when, when you hear this idea of even, "See Leaders Make Change. Cause I"m--, I'm excited about this leader as both individual and collective around like how--. Are there folks or experiences that you're like, Oh yeah, that makes me think of this person or this experience I had, or this group.
amb: Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty fortunate in that I feel like I’ve lined myself up to regularly be around people and institutions that are inspiring to me. When I hear the phrase, one of the first people that pops to mind, or first groups of people that pops to mind, are BOLD, or Black Organizing for Leadership and Dignity, helmed by Denise Perry. And part of the reason it jumps up is because they are answering--. We--, I'm a part of that group and part of the training body. My, my, my honor each year is I get to be part of the national gathering, which is Black family reunion times organizing times bliss.
SC: Nice.
amb: But part of why she leaps to mind is because, you know, we've been in this long journey as people who are descended from enslaved people on this land, and as, as things have gotten more and more heated, more and more dire, you know, there's, there's this ever increasing urgency on, like, How are we gonna get ourselves free? How are we gonna get ourselves more free than we are now? How are we gonna reach behind us and keep our children safe? How are we gonna do these things? And they're huge questions, they're urgent questions, and she looked at all of this as an organizer with other people who are also really forward thinking and said, you know, we actually have to really attend to the Black body, the Black self, the Black soma. (22:49) And there has to be a level of turning, you know, while we do political education, right? While we understand what it means to actually do transformative organizing, to actually be out in the streets, changing material conditions; we have to attend to our trauma. We have to recognize that Black people walk with such a heavy load of trauma, that it can be really difficult to do the very fundamental things that we have to do to be in community with each other. So, part of that course, and a part of that organization; everyone who's come through it has experience with somatics, like, really turning and looking at the places where there is trauma, or the places where there are--, there's pain and oppression, impacts of oppression in the body, and then starting to actually say, This part needs to be healed. And it's not a before or after. It's not, like, first go heal yourself fully and completely, and then come get free.
SC: Yeah.
amb: It's like, these things have to happen in parallel. and for her to--. To me, that's what a great leader does, is look at it and says, This may not make sense to the rest of y'all, who are like, We just need to run another campaign. We just need to, you know, get another person elected. We need to see--, get another piece of policy moved. I think for someone like Denise, she looks at that and is like, all of that is great, and we do need to do all of those things, but we also need to attend to the spirits and the wellbeing on every level of the people who are running those campaigns. (24:15) Because what, you know, keeps happening to us is we win the battle but we lose all the humans, all the soldiers, all the people that are part of it fall to the wayside, and there's no one to actually uphold the victories and we just end up circling back and moving back. So she's someone, and she, and Sendolo and Lorelei and Alta and Amalisa, there's like a whole team of us who train--. Prentiss, Marc Anthony, Adaku. It's a big team. So, she leaps to mind. Of course, you know, the women behind Black Lives Matter, and the staff who have kept Black Lives Matter going, and expanded to the Movement for Black Lives, you know, understanding that, like, Black Lives Matter never existed in a vacuum. It was always, like, a huge network--. And there has been, since we got here, a huge network of Black people trying to figure this out. And there's been a lot of like, you know, steps and learning steps along that path. What I think has been brilliant is that folks have not said, Okay fine, like, we're just gonna pack it up and go home, you know? In the face of what has been pretty intense, you know, critique and bullying and push back, so, all this stuff from different directions. Instead folks have been like, Okay, how do we broaden out? How do we see ourselves as more of a We, and not just an individual organization or an individual effort. So, to me, that's what, again, what leadership looks like. And you know, our friend Malkia. Malkia, I feel like--. On some days I wake up, and I'm just like, Malkia is somehow singlehandedly saving the entire internet while also sitting next to her wife who is facing this battle with late stage cancer, and I think there's something brilliant about the vulnerability that Malkia walks with every day to, to say everyday, even as I'm, even as I'm this, you know, this place of deep love and deep surrender to what this love is calling for me right now, I'm still--I still have my eyes on this, on net neutrality and on the internet and on our right to communicate with each other and understanding how fundamental that is. (26:36) And to me, that's also leadership, is to say, I--, my heart is breaking, and I'm still here, and I'm still building this movement, and I still think it's really important, and one doesn't supersede or preempt the other, in a way.
SC: Yeah.
amb: And I think so often that happens when it's like, Oh, there's something hard, I have to take myself away from everyone and feel my pain in private, that a leader should not be seen that way. But I think what she's doing instead is saying, No, I--, like, this is me as a leader. I'm leading and I'm loving. This is me as a leader, I'm leading, and I need my community's help right now. This is me as a leader, and I'm hurting a lot today, and also writing this column or doing this interview or other things, and, I don't know, just to me, there's a way of that, that leading with vulnerability, leading with your spirit and your grief and your heart intact, that's the kind of leadership you're interested in.
SC: It seems like if we're going to work our way out of white supremacy and structural oppressions, that we need to reimagine leadership, like, what does leadership look like that is different from the cold, hard, masculine, sort of, you know, disconnected, only focused on the action at hand, leaving emotion outside of the conversation, that that actually doesn't get us, doesn't get us more towards liberation, that just--it changes--as you said, or like, changes the people in the space, but doesn't actually change the structure. (28:10)
amb: Exactly. I mean, that's a lot of where Emergent Strategy came from, was like, you know, reading Octavia Butler's books and seeing different kinds of leaders put forth there, and then looking at natural operating systems and being like, well leadership doesn't--, it doesn't always look like the alpha male killing everybody and standing on a hill. There's all these other models where lots of creatures are working together and proliferating their species. And I'm like, I wanna figure out how we do that for my species. It feels like we're heading in the other direction. I would like to be part of turning that around. And getting us in right relationship, and--. You know, partially because I love being on this planet, and partially because there's children that I love that are going to have to live on this planet, and partially just like, the human experiment, right? I'm really interested in what it would look like for us to be in right relationship. I feel a sacred connection to this place that I think it's not an accident that this is the planet we ended up on, and this is the planet we're responsible for. So, I got, you know, to me, like, changing what leadership looks like is maybe the most crucial part of changing what the future looks like.
SC: I appreciate that. You know, in thinking about what you said, and what you offered, both around Denise and BOLD, and Malkia, one of the gatherings we had with LANE, one of the ED's was like, Oh, I didn't realize how much PTSD I was carrying. Right, like, that, that these things, like, impact--, and impact folks' ability to vision, to see what's next.
amb: Yes, that's it.
SC: So this idea of working through--, the individual working through the healing, working through understanding and working on the way oppressions actually lay in our bodies and our minds as an individual actually creates larger, a larger vision for us to see what's possible, back to this question of, like, possibilities, and be in spaces of possibilities.
amb: That's right. That's right. I mean I feel like--. Well, I'll just say, I actually think that it can happen on two levels. Like I think, one is like, blunt trauma, like something actually happens to our community or in our organizing space that is so traumatic, and we try to keep moving through it, keep moving with it, keep going through all the grief it takes to actually care about humans and watch them die and suffer in unfair ways and continue waking up and trying to make it better. (30:44) I think the other way is that piece around getting stuck inside the box of what people have determined as politically possible, or, you know, possible, period. Right? And I think that we get stuck in that box, and it makes--, it's like, so small that no matter how we're growing, we're contorting to try to stay inside this box, and I think that tis the other way that we kind of get truncated and deterred from pushing for the kind of change we actually need because it's like, Well, we can only create change inside this corrupt system so, you know. You know, I think the queer marriage conversation has been like that, right, where it's like, Great. It's really exciting that people who want to be able get married can get married, but when I think about what I want my rights to be as a person who sleeps with people of the same gender with--, than me, same gender as me? Same gender as me, or a multitude of other genders, I'm like, there's so many things that I want that have nothing to do with the traditional marriage structure. But then, you know, in the realm of what is politically possible, like, that's the step, and you know, what always happens is we take that step, we put ourselves behind the politically possible step, and then, once that step's been achieved, you know, a lot of of folks are like, Okay, we're not gonna keep stepping with you to get to that more radical ground. And so I think, I also, you know, it's just, like, one of those things that when we wanna make more things possible, we have to build the kind of relationships where folks really care about each other across political difference. So, if we work together on your thing, you're gonna care about working together on my thing, you know? Not just because it's transactional, but because we start to really have a deep relationship to each other's like, well being, and the longevity of each other's lives and communities.
SC: It feels like relationships, in a lot of ways, is at the core of Emergent Strategy.
amb: Mm-hmm. (sung) It's all the things. (32:44) Yeah.
SC: (sung) It's all the things.
amb: It's all the things. I have a piece in there that I actually expand on, for the Pleasure Activism book, but it's about liberated relationships. And I do think that--, I think Gopal Dayeneni brought this idea to me that, like, the smallest unit in the human species is actually the unit of the relationship, which I really nerded out on, and that, it's like, we think we're actually out there by ourselves, but we just can't do things by ourselves. You know? Like, even, you know, like eating, sleeping, transportation, like, we just rely on either what other humans have done or are doing or might be willing to do for our survival and our wellbeing. I think it's why we're born the way we're born. You know, other species are born and they can kind of stand and go pretty quickly. Or, like, little baby turtles, you know, they're born and then they're just like, Okay, race into the ocean, you know. And then humans are born and it's just like, I'm screaming and pooping and I can't see anything. This is gonna be my existence for several months so, you know, it's like that level of immense vulnerability, it feels intentional. It feels like there's something we're supposed to take from that that'll shape what kind of species we are for our entire existence. And I don't think we've been listening to that.
SC: It makes me think about a quote from someone we both love. Dream Hampton posted--
amb: Oooh yay.
SC: --on her facebook page when George Zimmerman was acquitted, she posted, Our strength shouldn't be measured by our ability to endure suffering. (34:33)
amb: Yes.
SC: And I think this--, what, as I'm listening to you, it--, that came to mind, because I'm thinking about the way in which we--, how we interact, like, what is that relationship built upon, and in Emergent Strategy, you talk about moving at the speed of trust, and that to be able to be in a relationship that feels aligned, equitable--, that feels like a real, not transactional, but, like, transformative--, like, liberatory relationship as you're saying, what does that require of both parties, what does that require of people who want to be in relationship with each other?
amb: That's great. Well, you know, I think one of the things that happens, that Dream also has talked about in the past is relationship supremacy, and couples supremacy, and how in this context, I wanna talk about it as something that we kind of only tune into relationship management as it relates to intimate relationships, you know? Like, with my boo, I really learn how to communicate, and how to take in feedback, and how to, like, stop being passive aggressive about the dishes or, you know, make a direct request when I want the toilet paper to be turned the right way in the roller or whatever it is.
SC: The right way.
amb: Right, the right way. I said it. You know, so, I think there's, there's--. We, like, do so much to learn how to do relationship in that space, but then we often won't put that same level of intention into the relationships where we spend most of our waking hours, like, the people that we're actually trying to, you know, make change with, you know, foment revolution with. And that always blows my mind. So when I first started doing--, when I first started doing facilitation work, one of the things that I would hold in my head and in my heart, is that what I'm doing is organizational healing. (36:26) What I'm really tuned into is where has there been damage to the relationships of this structure, and how do I help to re-develop or re-grow or return, restore, these relationships to health. Because a lot of times, what people are really tripping about is, it's not actually the political difference. Like, people love to say, we just have these deep, deep political differences, but often when I, like, pull up the hood and start looking in there, it's like, it's actually not that deep, you know, or at least not as has been articulated so far, but what is really definitely happening is folks have got hurt feelings and have not learned how to be in healthy conflict with each other, and would rather cancel each other than have a hard conversation. And then, you know, you just end up with a culture of folks who don't know how to be positive and proactive, in work relationships or in friendships or platonic relationships. Folks who don't know how to set the kind of boundaries that you learned to set in your home, you know, but you don't know how to set that with your boss. Right? So, I think--, you know, it's not just about, about the need for relationship, but that piece around moving at the speed of trust, which, a lot of people have articulated in the world is like, this, this is what we need to be up to, this makes sense, it's like, it actually, it, it works both ways, you know? It means slowing down on the front end, in order to actually build trust. It means that trust is gonna get broken a lot of times, and, like, in that breaking of trust is how you learn what the lines are and what really matters to you, and what you're gonna fight for and fight over and all those things, and then, once that trust is there, you can move very, very fast. (38:22) Cause you're like, I know that I can count on these people, I know what I can count on them to do. I know what people are skilled at and not skilled at. I know how people respond under pressure. You know. I teach somatics, and, with the generative somatics team, and we have these training teams of, you know, four to seven people at a time, and like, you learn a lot. You're under immense pressure. And it's really good to know, Oh, on day three of a training, you know, I'm gonna get loopy and cranky, and I want my team to know that so that we can all work together on getting the energy right, you know? Or, if I'm in a space where someone brings something that was a traumatic experience for me, I need one of the other two just to put a hand on my back, and I can trust the hand on my back. I trust that they're not saying, You're weak, but rather, you know, this might impact and touch you, and I'm here for you. You know what I mean?
SC: Yeah, yeah. No. And I'll say that emergence and emergent strategy is one of our, our cornerstones of LANE, and part of the reason that that phrase trust, moving at the speed of trust comes up is that it reminded us to work on three levels. One is like the level that you're talking about around, like, human capacity. Folks will always, like, go back to capacity building of organizations, that's great. Systemic oppressions and how we are potentially dismantling in that arena. But the human capacity piece that it feels like you're talking about as well. How to be, what it means to even be able to trust, and what do we need to cultivate and how do we need to be with each other to grow that.
amb: Yeah, and like, I'm just saying this not a human--. Like, it's not an individual flaw. If you have a hard time trusting, in this environment, that, to me, seems very logical, you know. Like, most people that I've met have endured some kind of often sexual or physical harm early in life that broke down their relationship to trust and broke down their sense of people around them who were always worthy of trust. We create a culture where a lot of lying happens so that people can impress the folks around them. So you're supposed to constantly be putting on a mask and putting on a face and doing selfies with someone else's, you know, filters on it. (40:44) And like, there's so many levels and levels and levels to organize dishonesty, right? And then we expect people to somehow show up in political organizing spaces and just be like, you know, We're like some sort of higher form of humans who never lie. It's like, Nope, we're just like everyone else. We're humans. And so for me, I'm always thinking about that, like, When and where do I lie, and how can I unlearn that behavior? Who taught me how to lie, you know, do I only lie when I'm afraid? You know, start to get curious about those things. And then, who do I trust? Why do I trust? Could I learn to trust more people? Could I learn to extend trust with more ease? You know, right now I'm working on being the kind of person who trusts first and, and then, like, keeps returning to trust, you know, so, instead of being, like, no, you have to earn my trust over a period of twelve years where you never make any mistakes, and never hurt my feelings and like, never do, you know, your eye never wanders or whatever it is that we try to set up as like the super unrealistic conditions under which trust would be offered, I'm like, Yeah, of course you don't trust anyone, like, your gates are so high, like, no one can get, can get through them, so I'm trying to flip that in my own personal life and in my work life. So I start out from a place of trust and then learn if I need boundaries inside that trust, you know, learn if I need different communication skills inside that trust and, and go from there.
SC: I mean, it sounds like the, the the relationship to iteration feels really important and grounding.
amb: Exactly. Exactly.
SC: You're like, I trust you, and then you do something different than what I thought, and I'm like, Oh, let me throw you away, or clearly you want my worst interests at heart, or you're trying to stab me in the back. (42:42)
amb: Yeah.
SC: And it's like, Oh, okay, so, if this is where you are needing to be for whatever reason, let's understand that, then this is what the iteration of our relationship becomes.
amb: Exactly.
SC: And so how do we have that navigation? Which, kind of leads to something that I know is near and dear to your heart and this question around the role and importance of facilitation.
amb: Yay! I think it's so important. I really am a facilitation evangelist. And I'm working--. I'm beginning to work on a little next book on just facilitation, because I'm really thinking a lot about what I mean by facilitation and why I think it's so important, especially for folks trying to create change together. And I think that it's, like, you know, at the basic level, I'm like, how do we create more ease between humans? Between the nodes of the system, so that we can address the hard things we actually need to address, and not get stuck on, on the places where it's like, Oh, this place is confusing or this place is--. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm--. I'm just hurt around it. Like, you know, if you approach everyone--. Someone taught me this and it's been a game changer for me is, like, approaching everyone as someone who's had trauma, and who has been shaped by some trauma, whether they have been traumatizing oppressing others, right? Cause that's, you know, men and white folks, and it's just like, yeah, you think that you have some kind of brilliance or you just got lucky in life, and it's like, actually no, your ancestors, like, you know, raped and murdered people or enslaved people or, like, did the holocaust or, like, did some, some things, and so you ended up with what you have, right? It's like, tracing stuff back to, like, you benefit from trauma or you suffer from trauma. Like, it's touched you somehow. And then, when you get into that mindset, then you come into a space and it's like, okay, we're gonna try to do something together, but of course we're gonna run into bumps because we're all walking with trauma in some way. (44:52) And I feel like a lot of what a facilitator can do is to say, a) I totally normalize the fact that this is difficult, and it's been difficult for humans since the beginning of time and we're just still learning, and b) let's focus on the things that we can actually grow and build and move together here. And then on a, you know, just very basic level, it's just so much easier to have someone else help hold a conversation that's meaningful to you. And I think that for couples, and I think that for organizations, and I think that for parents, you know, that it's just like, so that you can fully be there and not have to be 1000% responsible for everything that comes out of you. You want facilitators who can be like, I got it, I'll hold it, you just share, you just speak your truth, you just feel your feelings, you just keep moving forward, you know. So yeah, I'm a fan. (laugh)
SC: You took the words out of--. I'm like, But that's so hard, adrienne, right, the, but this idea of being able to see everyone in relationship to trauma in some ways, right? Because for those who have accumulated, based on the trauma of others, you know, it's so--.
amb: Oh it's so hard.
SC: How do you find compassion for, for that person who has all the things? (46:12)
amb: Yeah, I don't know if this is the best way. But lately I have been doing some almost like, soul visualization work. Like, when I come across somebody who seems to have so much more privilege than me. If I can pause and I can wait and I can ground in--. Almost, every time, what gets exposed, is that person feels really isolated and lonely and guilty. And there's just a whole mess inside there. Or they're asleep, like, they don't even know what's going on, right? A lot of times what I have to generate for them is a compassion of, I wouldn't want the burden that they have to walk with. It's like the privilege is never worth the cost. On a larger cosmic level, right? And that's not saying, I don't want to have enough in my life. I love having enough. I love, like, experiencing spas and hot tubs and self care and luxury, you know. I just think that that should be something that everyone has access to. And I'm not saying that none of that access should be tied to work, either. You know, I'm not out here, like, just--. Just--. I think the world has to be made, and I think we are the ones who get to be the makers of the world. I think that our job is to find, like, what parts of the world do I want to be responsible for helping to make? And to get to spend our lives, as much of our lives as possible, doing that work. Right? And then, I think that if everyone is actually tuned in and tapped into what it is they're supposed to be doing, it becomes easy to share the wealth, because it really feels like, Oh, this is a society that makes sense. (48:02) And that making isn't--. To me it feels very different from producing. In my heart, it does. You know, where I'm like, Oh, sometimes I need to make a story, or I need to make it easier for these people to have a conversation. Or I need to make it easier for this person to become a parent, you know? By being a doula for them. I need to, like, help make the world, versus, I need to produce, produce, produce something people can buy, and swallow, consume. You know, disappear and then have to keep producing more.
SC: I, I was thinking about your podcast, How to Survive the End of the World, we'll get to that in a second.
amb: (imitates air horn) (trills)
SC: With your sister, Autumn. And how you all pull out a sentence that, like, frames the whole conversation. And I think you just--.
amb: Oh, yes.
SC: --this question of making the world.
amb: Like, to me, that's what a great leader is really doing, is saying, Let's make the world we want. Like, let's make the world we really long for. Let's make it together, and let's not let anyone stand in the way of it, right?
SC: Yeah. Even ourselves.
amb: And I'm like, I don't wanna be operating at a lower level than that. Especially not ourselves. And that's usually who's gonna do it, you know? Is those voices in your head. I mean, this is the great thing; I have direct action in my history. I was with Ruckus for a long time, and I'm still on their board, and I'm just like a direct action--. You know, they train people in doing nonviolent direct action, and I'm a fan. And this is one of the main things that keeps us in line, is that we believe it's more important to be polite than to stand up for our beliefs. So that when people do, you know, step outside the lines and say, Wait a second, this is not fair. This is not right, we're gonna stop traffic until something is done about this injustice. You know, and folks are just like, What? (50:01) You know, and I'm like it's, it's more worrisome to you that this person's gonna stop traffic for a little bit of time to get your attention on this issue than it is that a young person was killed? That's, you know, that's a problem. We have this polite culture, so--. I think so much of leadership is, We're going to make the world, and we're going to actively intercede on, on this existing world and the places where it is unfair and the places where it's intolerable.
SC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
amb: Yeah.
SC: I appreciate that. And the risk and the relationship that, that occurs in that. Your, your relationship to risk and what you're willing to risk, in order to make the world that you and the folks that you are making it with believe in. So, you say something in your podcast, in the intro--, the podcast is called, How to Survive the End of the World, and it is you, adrienne maree brown, and Autumn--I know it's an M, but I can't remember.
amb: Autumn Megan Brown.
SC: Autumn Megan Brown, on the amb's.
amb: Yes.
SC: You talk about--, it's a discussion around rigor, humor, and--, what am I missing?
amb: (laugh) We say grace, rigor, and curiosity.
SC: Grace, rigor, and curiosity. That's it.
amb: But I love that you believe it's humor, because I think we're pretty funny.
SC: It is pretty funny--, it's great. I'm--, I talk with a lot of organizations around, like, their values. Do you--, are you clear around what your values are? Because, it's not just to put on a wall, but that they are embedded in your change or how you believe you make the world, and, like, what's important. And so, when you're talking about race and rigor, and curiosity, can you tell me a little bit about how you all landed--, how you landed on those three, and how you feel like those get embodied?
amb: Yeah. Well, I think that--. You know, when we were initially talking about doing the podcast, one of the things that felt important to us was, like, you know, apocalypse is happening. It's happening now, and it happens in ongoing ways. And we are part of communities that have survived apocalypse, and so, what are some of the common traits of communities that have survived and are surviving? (52:13) And the grace part felt, you know, like it came kind of first. And it's beautiful because you know, for me, to be able to say grace and honor the work of my mentor, Grace, while also being able to think about what it is to, to have grace under pressure, and grace under fire, and grace in the face of change. And then the curiosity is like, kind of, another sort of thing that emergent strategy is made of. Like, at the cellular level. It's like, how do we actually keep our curiosity. How do we keep our curiosity in tact? I think it's one of the things that society wants to take--. Not society in that way. I'm trying to think of how to say this. I feel like it's one of the things that racial capitalism wants to take from us is curiosity, is a sense of wonder, and a sense that things could still be changed. Because if we don't have that, we become very easy to manipulate and control. So, the--, for us, it felt like, Oh, we wanna be generating curiosity. Curiosity is also what leads to alternatives and solutions. And it feels like the communities that have been able to survive are the ones that have said, We honor the past, but we don't fetishize the past. We wanna figure out how to learn the lessons from the past and stay curious about the unknown, and what's coming to us, and stay curious about that which we can't control, right? And so then, rigor, it's like, if you're gonna prepare for apocalypse, if you're gonna prepare for being in communities in different ways, it takes rigor. It's not enough to just say, you know, we kinda think things should be, like, a little different. It's like, what are you practicing? If you're not rigorously practicing being a part of a new world, then no new world is going to suddenly emerge from your system. (54:04) You're gonna keep replicating the old world. It takes rigor. Rigorous practice of transformative justice. Rigorous commitment to being an abolitionist. Rigorous practice of love and deep relationship that is accountable. You know, it's like, what are you being rigorous about? And the show, you know, we keep learning what we're doing inside those, those guidelines. I think we're still learning from it, but I've been really excited that those were the words that emerged for us as we were first talking about what it was we were doing; what we were interested in creating.
SC: No that's, that's beautiful. And I think--, particularly because we're talking about organizations inside LANE that are art and culture organizations, the way in which racialized capitalism, the way you talked about tit, it reduces our curiosity, actually it reminds me that these organizations are places where people can grow that--
amb: Yes.
SC: --when we are rigorous about that I, I think about white supremacy and racialized capitalism disconnect us from history and truncate our imagination,and how do we then turn around and build in ways that connect us like you said, doesn't fetishize it, but there's a whole history. We think these things have been around forever, and they haven't. They've been around--, not even as old as my grandma, you know?
amb: Exactly. Exactly.
SC: And so, how that inspires our ability to, to participate and make the world.
amb: Yeah. And you know, I think there's places, right, where I'm like, I love to look back and to look forward at the same time,and to keep expanding in both directions,and also, I'm one of those people who's like, there's not another time when I would wanna be alive, even thought this time is so challenging. You know, there's not a time before this, especially when it comes to gender and sexuality, there's not another time that I know of where I would be able to be as free as I have been in this lifetime. And I feel like that's important to tune into, cause I'm like, Okay, I`m like, there's actually been apocalypses of whole ways of being, that if those had not happened, I would not be able to walk freely in the world. (56:20) I would not be able to love freely in the world. I'm really grateful that change does come and that change happens, and then I wanna make sure, you know, Octavia Butler talked about that God is Change, so change is basically the divine force always in motion in the world, and that we have to shape change. WE have to shape God, right? We have to shape that divine force, not just let it happen to us. So that's, I think, another thrust of the podcast is just saying, like--. You know, and I think we both thought, when we started, lie, this will be very disaster skills oriented, because we were both very interested in that. And what's emerged instead has been like, Yes, and, a disaster skills is like, How do you build authentic relationship under pressure? Because that's kind of a thing that you need to be able to do. How can you tell if someone is trustworthy or not? HOw can you restore right relationship when it's been broken? You know, like, there's just these things that are ike, Oh, yea, you need to know how to--, and you need to be visionary, right? I think if you're not visionary there's nothing that has you believe that you can get to another side. And I --. You know I'm like, you have to--. I--, you know, people talk about it's not enough to just survive, right? And I think about that a lot, where I`m like, I wanna have a really fucking great life, and I wanna honor all of my ancestors who didn't really have great lives. Like, I have a lot of ancestors who suffered, like, most of their life was like, deep suffering. I'm like, I feel like I owe them something, and I feel like for everything that i'm still suffering in my life, I'm hoping that I'm being accountable to a generation or multiple generations of people who will come after me nad who will suffer significantly less because of the sacrifices I make and because of the lesson s I learn. Otherwise, what's the point? (58:20)
SC: What is the point? (laugh)
amb: Yeah, what's the point, you know?
SC: It's important to have one, you know, it's important to have one. I am so appreciative of this time you've taken to talk. If there was one or two things that you would leave folks with in terms of, that's been inspiring to you along your journey, just so they can kind of keep following the thread if they're excited. Is there anything that you would drop for them? amb: W/hat's been exciting for me in my journey?
SC: Or inspiring?
amb: LIke, stuff you need to read? So, I would say, everything that Octavia Butler wrote. Grace Lee Boggs' autobiography called, Living for a Change. and the Tao Te Ching. I like the Stephen Mitchell translation. Ursula LeGuin also has an incredible translation. And then, there's one other thing that was like flitting around the edge--Oh! Audre Lorde's uses of the erotic.
SC: I love how you were like, Yeah, boom boom boom. Let me give these to the--.
amb: Boom. This is the cannon. (laugh)
SC: And of course, Emergent STrategies is a part of that. So, thank you so much for taking the time to--
amb: Oh yeah! Read my book! (laugh)
SC: --gather. (laugh)
amb: Thank you love. And thanks so much for having me,and I'm so excited about the work LANE is doing with these ideas.k
SC: Thank you for listening. Funding support for LANE is provided by the Andrew W Mellon foundation. You can find more information about LANE and the amazing organizations involved on the NPN website, www.npnweb.org. This episode was co-edited by Amanda Bankston and MOnica Tyran. jazz franklin is our podcast editor, and sound design by muthi reed. (1:00:16)