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John Bower joins Stephen for part three of our Relational Needs series. Today, we discuss the obstacles to building relationship with your mentee. We cover what a healthy mentoring relationship looks like, what obstacles may be present, and how to overcome those obstacles.
Show Notes
- John Bower - https://www.jsbower.com/
- Normandy Church - https://normandychurch.com/
Creators and Guests
What is You Can Mentor: A Christian Youth Mentoring Podcast?
You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community. We want to see Christian mentors thrive.
We want to hear from you! Send any mentoring questions to hello@youcanmentor.com, and we'll answer them on our podcast. We want to help you become the best possible mentor you can be. Also, if you are a mentoring organization, church, or non-profit, connect with us to join our mentoring network or to be spotlighted on our show.
Please find out more at www.youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You will find more resources on our website to help equip and encourage mentors. We have downloadable resources, cohort opportunities, and an opportunity to build relationships with other Christian mentoring leaders.
Mentors jump into mentoring relationships for a lot of different reasons. It may be because they had a mentor growing up. It could be because they know what it's like to not have a dad around. It could be because of something they saw in the news. It could be because they know that they can't commit to foster care but could make a weekly mentor relationship work.
Speaker 1:All in all, mentors have something to give. That's what gives them the confidence to jump in the mentoring. But there's a problem with this approach. Mentors can come into the mentoring relationship focused on what they have, what they can teach, what they bring to the table, what they're desiring for the relationship. It's good to have experience, skills, and desires and goals for the relationship.
Speaker 1:Don't get me wrong. Rather than focusing on sharing their wealth of knowledge or imparting skills, effective mentors focus on meeting relational needs. Relational needs are the bedrock of mentoring relationships with kids from hard places. In this series, we're gonna be discussing relational needs in mentoring relationships with John Bauer, the lead pastor of Normandy Church in Dallas, Texas. Welcome back to the You Can Mentor podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Steven. I always say my name. I don't I mean, honestly, if you've listened to half of the You Can Mentor podcast episodes, you know it's me. I maybe I should just say that. I'm here with my special guest once again for episode 3 of the relational needs series.
Speaker 1:His name is John Bauer. I can add sound effects in there if you want. Just just a crowd screaming. When I was growing up in in high school, my best friend's dad was depressed, and he he bought his dad a CD that was, like, these motivational speeches where people were, like, just a crowd is roaring, and this person is like, they're clapping for you.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah. So a true story. We finally rewatched all of the main avengers games, not the sorry sorry ones like Doctor Strange or whatever. But we watched Endgame, and then for some reason, I was so amped, I couldn't sleep.
Speaker 2:So that night, I went and watched, like, the audience reveal of, like, when Captain America showed up or Thor showed up. And the audience was, like, cheering and screaming, and, of course, I was crying. Because it was, like, that encouragement that we all wanna be a part of something greater than ourselves, and here I am at midnight crying. My wife comes out, and what are you doing? I'm wiping away tears from my eyes, and I'm like, nothing.
Speaker 2:Nothing. Nothing. I'm fine. Oh, that's I'm going to bed.
Speaker 1:We all wanna be a part of something.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Well, that's a good segue into our episode. Not really, but we're gonna talk about obstacles to relationships. What leads you to watch YouTube videos at midnight by yourself? Now today's episode, we're gonna cover what obstacles mentors face in building relationships with their mentee.
Speaker 1:John is a pastor, a counselor, a sage wise man with a great haircut, and so I'm excited to have him back to share more. So, John, what would you say are the telltale signs of a healthy relationship? If we're gonna talk about the obstacles, what what are we shooting for? Or what what do you see in a relationship that that tells you, okay, this looks this looks good?
Speaker 2:That's a really, really big question, and there's probably a million ways you could take it. The first thing I think about is, of course, very Christian, but the word koinonia. So it's a Greek word that we talk about when we talk about acts 242 to 47, and it's this idea that we've been given something together. We're partnering in it, and we're mutually giving and sharing. And then I would add as is appropriate.
Speaker 2:So if you're a dad and your son, there's things that he's not made to carry that you're supposed to carry. Christian worldview, it's this idea with Christ as your rock and as your redeemer and as your savior. He has given you along with others something to share in mutually to partner with God in and to partner with others. And so there's a mutual intimacy, a mutual respect, mutual healthy boundaries. You're you're bound by love, the great commandment, and not by obligation or duty.
Speaker 2:Because that's just the same thing as slavery where you're going in, like, taking somebody else's burden for them and not helping them to carry it, but rather placing it on your shoulders. And so I would say the idea of partnership as is appropriate, something that you've received from the Christian worldview from the Lord, because it always involves other people. And so I'd say that's a pretty good sign of health as far as just in the context of relationships in general. And I think you would add one more thought to that to the individual, and this is the part of the maturation process that we're all going through as Christians are becoming conformed to the image and likeness of Christ. Ephesians 4 talks about till we all attain the unity of the faith, we have mature manhood or womanhood.
Speaker 2:And so I think one of the main things that people have got to grow in so they can have healthy relationships is being known, and Saint Augustine says, you know, he prays, let me know myself that I would know God. And so I would put that kind of fancy word in there, emotional intelligence. So for a man or a woman or a mentor or a husband or a boyfriend or a girlfriend to be able to articulate between what they think and what they feel, not just so that you can get it out, but rather so someone could actually leave their world, enter into yours, and actually understand where you're coming from, which takes, as we all know, lots of time, but like in a healthy relationship, both parties are sharing, they're partnering, and then there's a sense of emotional what do you call it? Intellection, emotional IQ to where you're able to differentiate between thoughts and feelings and articulate it in such a way that you're known. Or flip that around, like, be able to hear it so that you can actually enter yeah.
Speaker 2:Be or actually to know. So yes.
Speaker 1:I like that. That's really good. I mean, when you talk about partnership and sharing and this interconnectedness, like, it's not it's not always, I guess, what we experience when we go to church or we are passive in our friendships. I I can't say that I always feel like I'm partnering with the people I'm interacting with. But the the image that comes into my mind is the trinity.
Speaker 1:Yes. That's kinda like what we're shooting for is to reflect reflect that relationship, which that's that's beautiful, and that's a high order, but that's also what we are made for. We're made to reflect that kind of relationship where there's this mutual reverence and sharing and partnership and purpose and unity. What did you just pull out?
Speaker 2:Just a little plug, a book by Michael Reeves on delighting in the trinity. And this idea of partnership and relationship comes from our worldview that God's 3 in 1. He's always been father. He's always been son. He's always been spirit.
Speaker 2:And that mutual joy and intimacy that comes all the way to John 17, I pray that they would be 1 even as we are 1, and that is that is terrifying, which is why we have obstacles to relational unity because to actually be known and accepted is terrifying.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. You know
Speaker 2:what I mean? That's why we have the the masks and and, you know, I think we talked about this last time, but you don't act stupid for no reason. There's a reason why we don't wanna risk being known or knowing because, well, my brother once famously said, I was like, I love that guy up there who's doing this thing. He's like, you don't love him. You don't even know who he is, which is so true.
Speaker 2:Like, we don't even know, you know, love is love is love, whatever that means. There's actually 3 different definitions for love in the Greek, and each one is a different level of intimacy. And we can't it's it's unfortunately been so westernized. It's really hard to actually to to love and be loved because if you're like you and I, what if you disappoint me? You know?
Speaker 2:What if Mhmm. What if you fail me? What if my wife disappoints me? What if I, as a pastor, disappoint people, which has happened all of the time, literally? Stop expecting your pastor to be your savior.
Speaker 2:Anyway Or never say everything wrong.
Speaker 1:Anyway, so It's true. It's true. Well, I I think that that's as that is the goal, I mean, what does what does that look like? I mean, I like how you unpacked the deferring responsibilities in relationships. So, like, a father has different responsibilities in a relationship than a son does.
Speaker 1:And I think that leads us into talking about what does a healthy mentor relationship look like, because there are clearly different roles between a mentor and a mentee. So could you unpack what you would say is what what does health look like in a mentor relationship?
Speaker 2:Well, that I think I said this quote last time. My shrink, doctor Keith Coburn over the Meyer Clinic, I think he came up with this, but he says, mental health is the radical commitment to reality at all cost, the unwavering commitment to reality at all cost. And so I think the idea of having the right framework when you enter into the relationship knowing that this kiddo is gonna be flawed, you're gonna be flawed, and your flaws are basically gonna come out on each other. So dealing with reality as it is and not as it should be, I think, is something that, you know, for all those people with strength finders who have positivity, they think everything's gonna be great. That's this guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You hate you don't wanna face reality. You're, like, no. It's gonna be great. You know, as your leg is being sold off, like, it's gonna be fine.
Speaker 2:It'll regenerate in the future. Anyway, my point being, I think as you enter into the relationship having a healthy understanding for reality, you may not understand their worldview. You'll have a little bit of your worldview, but understanding that in this world, you will have trials. But take heart, I've overcome the world that there will be conflict, and that conflict is actually the precursor to more intimacy. And by intimacy, I mean, as is appropriate, healthy, age and stage, relationships.
Speaker 2:So really the first thing I would say is that grounded in reality. You mentioned that book, There's No Such Thing as Dragons. The idea is there's this reality, there's this issue to be faced, to be uncovered, and if if we ignore it, whether it's a cultural background or race background, a socioeconomic background, or our own family of origin stuff, then what's gonna happen is that dragon is gonna grow bigger and bigger and bigger, which could harm the relationship. So I think the first thing I would say is really just being grounded in reality, which, you know, we learned this in sales. We, meaning me and the queen.
Speaker 2:I don't know. But what is it? Is, you don't know what you don't know. Mhmm. But just having that expectation that this ain't gonna go perfectly.
Speaker 2:So you're the journey is the process. The vision is the process as opposed to anyway. So that's the first thing I would say is being grounded in reality, I think, would be really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Something that popped into into my mind while you were sharing is I think there are very natural roles that we play in relationships, like a father and son role. That's a very natural like, you enter into that because you created a child, and now this is your responsibility. With a mentor, a mentor is, like, choosing to take on a role. It's kinda like choosing to take on a job.
Speaker 1:And I wouldn't necessarily call that an unnatural, like, entrance into a a different way of relating. But would you differentiate those kind of relationships from one another, like one that just happens to you and it's, it's just kind of a product of natural life and then relationships that are a choice that you choose to build relationship.
Speaker 2:Well, I would push back on that thought. I think I hear where you're coming from, but I'd I'm obsessed with the the story of Genesis and choosing between the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. And then in Deuteronomy 30/19, he says choose life or death today. So even in the context of your marriage, you might have made the commitment, but you have that choice to stay and engage at a heart level, the Koinonia level versus the shallow level, even with your kids. I mean, I know you're a a new dad, but with just about being 8, 3, and 2, there's times when I look at them and I'm, like, I choose not to I did basically just shirk my responsibility.
Speaker 2:And so the thought that was coming to my mind when you were talking is that really the only way you can grow up and mature so that you could actually, I don't know, function in a more healthy relationship is to choose to enter into relationship, to choose to even if it is unnatural, meaning, like, there's a cross cultural difference, there's a race difference, socioeconomic difference. I think that choice is part of it for you personally as the mentor, the maturation process, like you're actually owning it and possessing it and choosing it, and I would it's almost more empowering in my view to think I'm choosing to take responsibility or I have chosen this, so therefore, I'm going to continue to engage in it. And I agree that it's a little what's a little unnatural is maybe some of the the differences racially, financially, whatever else, but it's still that that choice is the same Yeah. Regardless of the kind it's like you're choosing
Speaker 1:I choose to have sex with my wife that created this child. It was my choice.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But then there's the other situation where it's it's not just a responsibility that's being put on my back. I am going to it and putting it on my back. Similar to how, I mean, the trinity like, God creates the world, creates humanity, and chooses to reveal himself in relationship. He chooses relationship with us.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:He didn't have to do that to be better or be a better reflection of what he is, but he chose to do it. Mhmm. And and I think that yeah. I just I I like how you're saying that choosing to build relationships is, in a way, how we grow, how we mature, and how we probably even address the obstacles within ourselves Right. Of building relationships.
Speaker 2:I like that idea of the the burden. Matthew 1128 in the message is this beautiful version of my yoke is easy, my burden is light. And and I I haven't figured out this whole boundaries thing really at all. I preached on a little bit this Sunday. My wife was kind of pushing back right after church.
Speaker 2:I'm, like, way to go, wife. So proud of you. But this idea that when we we partner with Jesus, he says, learn the enforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill fitting on you. And so it's this choice of taking that relational burden, but in the context of that relationship knowing what is Christ's responsibility, because our worldview again is that he is the one that is ultimately our shepherd, the shepherd for these kids, the world's true Lord, and so you're not the savior.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, that burden of relationship, that yoke comes upon you as you've you're choosing to enter into it. And so that's the place where I would say is and, again, you don't know what you don't know. You don't know their background. You don't know what's gonna hit you. You don't know, like, heck, we're in the COVID pandemic.
Speaker 2:You don't know what's gonna happen. I mean, that's the place where you don't have control. But in that process of learning, where is the relational burden on for me and where do I create even space. Like, we talked about last time that incident on the after school bus where, if I remember correctly, there's a place where you took some in my my opinion, you took a little bit of his burden on yourself, and so you're trying to navigate, you know, in the in the context of race and our hot climate, like, what am I responsible for? What is he responsible for?
Speaker 2:But, ultimately, that burden for us is the relational side of it, not the salvation, not the healing, not the knowledge impartation, but just the relational side of it, which actually frees you up. It's like I'm just committed to be there come hell or high water. So anyway
Speaker 1:Well, that's that's why I love the church because God is bringing together a diverse people to meet with him, to grow with one another, and to go into that dynamic of recognizing our differences and growing in responsibility toward one another. And our tendency and and maybe this is just my white majority person coming out, but my tendency is to only interact and build relationship with people who are similar to me, who are just like me, who don't have as many obstacles to relationship because there's automatically an understanding, an empathy, the the I get you kind of feeling, whether that's they like videography, or they they like refugees or
Speaker 2:Land cruisers.
Speaker 1:Or they play Pokemon Go. Like, it's like, okay. That's strange. But but just just recognizing that really as a mentor, you're choosing to enter into not only an intergenerational relationship, but also a relationship where there could be a lot of significant differences within your life experiences that create an environment for greater growth.
Speaker 2:Right. So let's go back to the church real quick because this is the obstacle to relationships. So again, our worldview has been shaped so much in the last couple years by consumerism, by me, like, we can't even I can't forget we. I can't deny myself pleasure, even though I haven't really earned it, whether it's, you know, an upgrade to my Land Cruiser, pleasure even though I haven't really earned it, whether it's, you know, an upgrade to my Land Cruiser or, like it's, like, actually work hard, be patient, and and earn it. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Because we're just so instantly gratified. We're kind of joking about how Apple and Microsoft and the COVID chip Bill Gates is gonna put on us in a few weeks. That was a joke, guys. But, anyway, my point being our western worldview, a lot of times, has it to where even the service is built off a personal experience with God as opposed to a communal experience. And all of the one another so one of the opposite objects to relational intimacy in any relationship is forgetting that we're actually wired for relationships.
Speaker 2:That if our brain does not connect, we're gonna atrophy, actually. Our brain's gonna atrophy and not be able to heal and restore itself. And, like, when you look at Corinthians, it's, like, do everything for the edification of the body. Edify the body. Edify the body.
Speaker 2:Edify the body. And so if you just have your coffee cup, your sermon, and your worship, and you get the Jesus tingles, You haven't done the main point of it, which is to, like, bear one another's burdens and enter into each other's worlds and minister, and each person has a role to play. So then you carry that into a mentor relationship, and, like, that worldview of isolationism and and and just you or your own god or your family, you're building your kingdom, then you're not partnering with Jesus because we are not living out the Shema, love God, love people. We're not living out the great commandment. We're not living out the great commission, and it's not that everyone needs to be an evangelist or, racial reconciliator or something like that.
Speaker 2:But when we partner with Jesus, we begin to get his heart for others, and whether we're introverted or extroverted that drive because we're partnering with the person who's dwelling within us, God the Holy Spirit, and the person of Christ, then we're actually more able to do that cross cultural thing because we begin to have the father heart of God. We're partnering with his hope and vision for the world, which is that renewed humanity, which ends with people from every tribe and tongue, you know, worshiping before the throne. And so, yeah, I would say that's a huge obstacle to it because our worldview, like you said, I mean, there's nothing wrong with it, dude. I mean, if you wanna do Pokemon GO, that's great. But I I wanna talk to dudes with Land Cruisers and and dream about it, and homogeneous is it makes sense.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? That's why, you know, in certain parts of Dallas, there's the Vietnamese part of Garland or, you know, the rich white part of Dallas or, you know, the the Jewish part of by Forest Lane. I mean, it's just kind of natural. So I think that idea of partnering, a vision for relationship helps drive us past that cultural barrier. You don't have to be super charismatic and personality to do it.
Speaker 2:But anyway, I don't know how we got on that trip, but I liked it. So
Speaker 1:Well, I I think it relates to, I mean, a lot of conversations that we're currently having in the culture. Right. And the the obstacles are there. We all recognize them, but it take it takes more than like, we can't talk away the differences or the challenges or the obstacles. It has to be something that we traverse, and and I think yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, going back to God's heart in the Christian worldview, that's that's how we traverse those obstacles. And I I think with a with a mentee, because we're talking about mentoring kids, a kid is gonna be less equipped to traverse those obstacles. They may they may be more willing to bridge, I think, bridge gaps of differences and are open to different experiences because they haven't been ingrained on this is who I am and this is who they are. Like, there's I don't know if you've seen that.
Speaker 2:Actually
Speaker 1:Do you see that in kids?
Speaker 2:Actually, from what I've read and listened to, in a dream world, you have a healthy sense of ego at a pretty young age. So a lot of those patterns, it's almost that, I was I was looking at this in light of our podcast, but this is why that the idea of attachment, what fires together, wires together is so important is because as those neural pathways fire in your brain, what is it, your what you, interact with forms your attachments, your attachments form your loves and your loves form your identity, and it's almost like your behavior becomes predestined at that point. So even at a young age, you're starting to hear messages, receive messages, you know, you wrote down here loving kids from hard places. Read Karen Purvis. She's passed.
Speaker 2:Watch videos by her. She's just do what she says and don't even listen to me. But that's the thing that's really where what the mentor is doing is, like, almost acting as that relational intercessor, and you're just interrupting because those those thought patterns and processes because if we think about attachment, like, you're they're attached to their mama when they're 3 months in the womb, and then, lord willing, they have a father, mother in the home. You You know, she's nursing when that baby can finally start opening her eyes. His or her eyes, they're attaching again at that level.
Speaker 2:And when those things aren't there, they're firing with whatever else is there. So I would say very much even at a young age, those thought processes and patterns and identity is being shaped so deeply, which is why forerunners specifically started going younger and younger and younger because by the time I got to 13, 14, 15, 16, barring a miracle, there was almost like this determined outlook for a fatherless kid, jail, joblessness, part time work, you know, and all all the stats that come from having a a fatherless home. So I I I would kind of challenge that and say, I I think a child can be really well formed with emotionally healthy, stable moms and dads around so that that identity doesn't get so inverted. So even if we're, you know, we were talking about specifically, all the cultural stuff that comes in by the time you're our age, right, and, like, just being consumed by our phones or whatever else. I think that that lack of relationship for a mentee can really form them even at a or inform them at a very, very early age.
Speaker 2:So I would push back a little on that thought just from those reasons. So anyway
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I I think it is interesting, like, how how easily like, what you said, those those thought patterns shape our identity and our sense of who we are, and that that becomes our normal to where, really, anything that's outside of that, it just doesn't compute. It's it's difficult to understand a different way of life or a different so for for a mentee, not only do you have cognitive developmental insufficiency because you're a child, you're not developed, what I think the the male brain is, like, fully developed at 27. Mhmm. And so that's something to consider.
Speaker 1:But then, also, you may have challenges that that kid's faced that has prevented him from understanding what really healthy relationships look like.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And then you have a a mentor who is jumping in, who may have more of, like, cognitive capacity if they're at least 27. But even then, honestly, being 27 doesn't really mean anything when you're a man man. But trying to add address those those challenges, those obstacles in my head, I I see on two ends of a Spartan race, there's all of these obstacles and pits and
Speaker 2:You're talking about, like, modern day Spartan, not
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Modern day Spartan race, not like the old day. I don't know what they used to do back then, but it kind mentoring kinda feels like getting the relationship to the place of health depends more upon the mentor than the mentee.
Speaker 1:I understand that both have a a role to play, but can we expect kids to understand, oh, these obstacles like, if I go this way, like, that means I'm gonna be more healthy. And whereas if the mentor understands these are the obstacles, and if I traverse these, I can lead our relationship into greater health.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'd so you're what I hear you saying is that for the mentor, you feel like there's more responsibility there to help attach, connect because, a, hopefully, they have greater cognitive capacity, b, maybe a more, a greater sense of healthy ego, c, better emotional intelligence. So yeah. That but I think what you're getting into in that is the idea of facts, reason, and logic, which I know from being around y'all, you don't when y'all coach up your people because I mean, you I mean, this the program for 100 y'all is incredible. It will change the city.
Speaker 2:There'll be a difference here in Lake Highlands and Dallas because they ventured out into this. But it's, like, you'll get a bunch of dudes that bring proverbs to the kids and they're, like, pay attention to my teaching, oh, son. Remember it. You're, like, don't hook up, don't don't drink. And they're going, they have no what do you no.
Speaker 2:That's not how you do this. You're becoming the teacher that's not it it doesn't do anything for them, and it probably even drive them away. And so I think what what I hear from 4 Runner, in particular, is this idea that you're supposed to connect more, and then those relational connects are almost, like, intercepts from going down towards the shadow and to shame and to pain and wrong choices. And so, really, on the mentor, it's kind of knowing the playing field and knowing that if you give them well, Proverbs 33 says or Proverbs 4 talks about the adulterous woman, son. And if you do that, like you said, their brains aren't even fully formed yet.
Speaker 2:I mean, they're gonna think with, you know, their testosterone at that point. So, anyway, my point being, the more a mentor can know, just the relational dynamics and what's going on in the brain and the attachment stuff and everything that people are learning that's proving the Bible to be true, like, for instance, loving God and loving people is literally the greatest commandment, and that's what changes people and brings the kingdom. And then but practically learning how to love it and recognizing the game. So you're saying, oh, I can see that they're doing these things. What's the need behind the deed?
Speaker 2:Oh, I I I just want to attach to them, so I'm just going to be faithful to connect and and here we go. So so, anyway, yeah, I I the we talked about the brain side. The facts, reason, and logic, it just isn't going to change a thing other than hinder your relationship. And anyway
Speaker 1:And and do you I mean, do you think the the thing that leads our thinking into that is thinking that this the obstacles to our relationship are predefined like a Spartan race, where it's like, well, here are the 10 obstacles to your relationship with your mentee, and here are the ten principles for how mentors can can address these things to build a relationship.
Speaker 2:So So it's like opposed to have the relational connect now and giving you the facts reason and logic so that you can actually enter into relationship, kind of. I don't know if they're it's you know, the idea where there's smoke, there's fire, and I you know, people don't act stupid for no reason. Like if I get in a shame spiral, the outcome is basically guaranteed unless there's a relational exchange with God or with others, and I think seeing that in your own self, knowing your own heart, your own needs, and then being able to pick up those patterns and just kind of using discernment, I think you can interrupt those different things. And it's more, like, like, even in this conversation, it's it's we have some ideas or some topics, but we're really conversing together and creating, in essence, a form of art. Although the listener might not be this more it's a story.
Speaker 2:Right? We're having a story. We're having we're exchanging ideas, and so it's it's nice to have some guiding principles about what those obstacles are, but even then, you I mean, you can't even like, we're just done with the relational sites. You're not talking about, like, did they have drugs in the womb? Like, how much trauma have they had?
Speaker 2:Do they have a mental disorder? Do they have thyroid issues? I mean, like, just pick a subject. You know what I mean? But just having a general boundary for, like, the need behind the deed or what obstacles might be there on a relational side that helps navigate it so that you can enter into their world so that you can attach to them because that's really the goal.
Speaker 2:And by attachment, that deep emotional bond that endures across space and time Mhmm. Where they feel that that's that's love. That that's what it means to live out the great commandment. How do you attach to them in such a way that's healthy, that's loving them for who they are, not who they should be? So if you take in all of the factors, then you all of a sudden are trying to play God and it's too stressful.
Speaker 2:They have bipolar and a wheat disorder and a peanut allergy, and, oh, by the way, they were abused, and it's just it can be overwhelming. So I think just having that framework that you're saying those kind of boundaries helps you overcome those obstacles to relational intimacy. So, anyway
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you do you think we should tell mentors that the obstacles are something that you can traverse, or more is it just an understanding of these are these are going to be the challenges of these relationships?
Speaker 2:Well, you have positivity on the StrengthFinders. I don't. So I'd rather stand before, like, an open grave and say
Speaker 1:But you can't overcome a peanut allergy unless God intervenes. It's not something like, okay. Well, we'll just we'll we'll get over this together. Like
Speaker 2:No. No. He won't. No. Unless you're Benny Hinn and can heal me.
Speaker 2:No. So wait. Say it again. You're saying, how do you how do you set up the
Speaker 1:Like, how how I've set up the the analogy of a Spartan race is that all of these obstacles relationship to relationship are things that the mentor can traverse and figure out and overcome to then get to this place where they're just with their mentee known and knowing, like
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And and do you think that's a that's a a good thing to
Speaker 2:Except for I wouldn't set it up as positively as you can, because you're just more positive. Like, you're gonna fail miserably. You're not gonna like the mentor, mentee relationship at times. You're gonna wanna not choose it, but you can. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You can do it. You can overcome these. If you can learn to see and tell yourself another story and see the world through their eyes and leave your world and partner with God and partner with others, you can enter into their worlds and really become a significant impact because you're partnering with the living God. And that's what he does is bring restoration and hope and reconciliation. So I would start really gravely and dimly and and try and depress them and leave them hopeless, and then kind of bait and switch them into saying, okay, if you can just see the need behind the deed Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you can have a different framework from your worldview that you've been in and you can do it. By God's good grace, you can do it. You can attach to them in appropriate ways. You can overcome those obstacles to relational wholeness. So, yeah, I would just do it on a much more grim, grizzly Solomon, you know, vanity, vanity.
Speaker 2:It's all vanity.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Anyway Last thing on on this whole analogy of the Spartan race.
Speaker 2:Have you done many Spartan races?
Speaker 1:No. I've never done I've never done one.
Speaker 2:You're really harping on it, bro. I gotta see the need behind the deed on this. I like it, though.
Speaker 1:I I just I just wanna work out. Obviously, the the mentor is not, I mean, is not Jesus. Like, there are obstacles to building relationship with him. They may look different than the obstacles to building relationship with the mentee, but have you seen have you seen kids fighting for that? As as in have you seen examples of kids, like, fighting to overcome the obstacles of relationships with either their mentor or their parent or, like, what what does that look like for the kid?
Speaker 2:So we did foster care. Our oldest is adopted, and, you know, just loving kids from hard places and people from hard places. So many thoughts on this. The first thing is worldview and how we view the heart and the seat of emotions. And if you come from a good Bible church or a reformed church, the heart is deceitful above all else.
Speaker 2:It's horrible. Just kick it in the trash. At the same time, you know, we're supposed to guard our heart because everything we do flows from it. At the same time, the heart is where Christ is pleased to dwell through His Holy Spirit just as we are. And so it depends on how you view the world in this.
Speaker 2:And so if you can view a kiddo as a mago Dei made in the image and likeness of God, then there's this good thing in them seeing the if we just look at the deeds, the cuss, they swear, hook up, kick against the goads, kick against the pricks, like in the King James version, Jesus talking to Paul, you'll see all this just grossness that's flowing out of this desire for, intimacy. Like, was it Augustine? Our hearts are restless until they find the rest in you. But part of that rest is in the context of relationship with others. It starts with God and everything else.
Speaker 2:And so I think the kids' natural desire is for it, but a lot of these kids are so set up for failure, it would take a miracle.
Speaker 1:So a
Speaker 2:lot of their deeds, like we talked about last time when you just did this because you're a racist or whatever, if we could dissect that in the moment and see the need behind the deed, there's something that's, like, do you see me? Do you love me? And that's good. That's not bad. And so it's almost like there's this push pull from the kids.
Speaker 2:They're testing your boundaries. I mean, I'll never forget, we had a a kiddo named Stormy, and it was the most prophetic name ever. And so pretty young, and we went for a walk and was on, like, a a scooter or something, and so I was, like, okay. This is where we stop. You can't go past this without a lot of the kids called me daddy, but they would call Casey miss Casey just because they didn't have a dad, but then they wouldn't call Casey mom.
Speaker 2:So she starts my smashing my toeless shoes or shoeless feet and shins with it, screaming hysterically going, oh, no. I'm gonna keep going. And so if I just look at that as, like, well, she's totally deprived, depraved, and, you know, in danger of hellfire, you're, like, no. The the need behind the deed is she is pushing to see if I will take care of her, if I'll enter into her world, if I'll accept her. It's like she's gonna try and hurt me before I hurt her.
Speaker 2:So it's, like, this weird push pull, and we all do it, like, everyone. It's, like, we really do want intimacy. We really do want relationship, but depending on how we've been hurt or we've experienced the world, then we're going to do something that's gonna set a bear trap for the other person to sabotage the relationship, which is unhealthy, completely unhealthy. So I think in these kiddos, there's an innate like, everything in them is crying out, craving attachment to be known intimacy, but if it's failed over and over again, eventually hell's coming with it. The shadow is coming with it.
Speaker 2:They're gonna choose the tree of knowledge of evil and they'll be off a cliff and they'll be another stat, you know, poverty, black fatherless kid, you know, poor white kid, and, you know, what is it, the Appalachian mountains is doing methamphetamine. It's just guaranteed unless someone comes in and and intercedes, and I just mean relationally. Because, like you said, you mean a building with the peanut allergy, but the relational side, you can you can interrupt, and then seeing the need behind the deed because, literally, every action we're doing, it's not stupid if for no reason. It's giving us something. And it may be giving us the wrong thing, but it doesn't mean, like, the actual wiring, the Imago Dei reflecting the Trinitarian God of the universe, that part within us is good.
Speaker 2:Like, if you think about yourself, this is so funny, but you're you're a community within yourself, Steven. So there's a silly example from Homer Simpson. The Simpsons, he gets a thing of mayonnaise and puts a Bicall in it, and, Marge goes, that seems like a bad idea, and he goes, well, that's a problem for future Homer and I'd hate to be him, and he chugs it. But within that, like, you see that there's a community with even himself. Right?
Speaker 2:And he's not like, there's something that's driving him. He's not even taking consideration his future self. And so when you look at these kiddos, there's this desire there's this there's this desire for community and it's driving everything they do. Even if it's something so stupid that, like, putting mayonnaise and vodka together and chugging it, and they can't see past that. They can't see past just that moment of pleasure or whatever else.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I think it I don't even know what the question is at this point, but I think it can be intercepted or interrupted on a relational side, but then seeing those kids in such a way that you're seeing not just their actions, but the need, the heart cry that says, actually, I want this. I'm just gonna test you like that sweet girl Stormy did with my shins and the little go kart thing. She's testing those boundaries, but if you see it rightly, it's really a heart cry that says, do you love me? Will you accept me even when I'm bad type deal. So
Speaker 1:Wow. It's really good, John.
Speaker 2:I hope so. I just kinda went on a little tangent.
Speaker 1:Well, I've I've been on the Spartan Race Tangent a while.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 1:We've been talking about the obstacles to relationship, and some of those are physical, some of them are emotional, some of them are spiritual. Mhmm. I mean, a physical one is like You don't live together. You don't live together, and they don't they can't drive, they don't text you, like, thing things like that, communication issues. And, I mean, I think I think that's one.
Speaker 1:Another is emotional, where they're they're not opening up. How how do you get them to speak? I mean, I have mentors all the time, like, try and list off 10 questions and they get one word answers. Even if they try to make them open ended, they usually get, I don't know. And anytime they try to unpack how they feel, it's always, I don't know, good.
Speaker 1:And they'd get frustrated because they're like, I'm trying to dig in here, but it doesn't seem like I'm
Speaker 2:I don't know you. Why why would they share? Because you're doing your lily white proverbs intentional discipleship thing where you ask whether or not you masturbated at the end of it. And did you look at anything lustful, and then you confess it. And then, you know, I'm like
Speaker 1:I don't I don't think our mentors are
Speaker 2:I know. I'm just going back to some of the the the idea of, like, we're in Starbucks. Did you read your Bible? Yes or no? The, like, the lust
Speaker 1:the stereotypical Yeah. Discipleship?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Is there anything you lied about? That doesn't sound like a relationship. That sounds like a transactional punch me in the face. So okay.
Speaker 2:Keep on going. That made me mad. I'm sorry. I don't act stupid for no reason. There's some hurt there.
Speaker 2:I need to process that. So go ahead. But so emotional
Speaker 1:I think there are there are spiritual
Speaker 2:Boundaries. Mhmm. Obstacles Barriers. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That I mean, it's just kinda understanding whether whether the kid's coming in with an understanding of his Yes. So good. I mean, what other obstacles are there? There's developmental obstacles.
Speaker 2:All that doesn't matter, in my humble opinion. Okay. One of the greatest things I learned from Watermark and some of their marriage ministry is draw the circle around you. So it's, like, this idea of, like, you're you're in this relationship that you're trying to attach and and meet needs. And, yes, it's it's, like, you you you think about a couple of relationships you see in the bible.
Speaker 2:You see David and Jonathan or friendships. You see, like, the spiritual father. So Paul, Timothy or Timothy Paul, where there's a son relating to a father, a spiritual father relating to a son. So in the context of the mentor mentee, you're acting as a spiritual mentor. Right?
Speaker 2:So at the same time, what the cross does is create a level playing field so that everyone in the body of Christ can contribute no matter how young, old, incompetent, unwise, whatever, from the mouth of babes. So while you have this kind of healthy father son relationship, mentor mentee relationship, at the same time, it's partnership. You're partnering with Christ and you're partnering with them to draw their heart out. And so there's huge boundaries, like you're saying. But if we're coming at it from the relational side, a couple things that I would say is, again, the framework.
Speaker 2:Is the idea that, man, this is going to be mutual beneficial, and I don't mean, like, I get my service, you know what is it called? Goosebumps because I served someone. But if you're viewing it as maybe this this this kiddo is gonna be before the throne of the Lord worshiping together with me, then you're not viewing as, like, the white savior coming in, but you're going, how do I partner with Jesus and Him so it's mutually beneficial? Even Paul in Romans 111, as the spiritual father, apostolic father says, I've come I've longed to come be with you that I might impart some spiritual gift to you that we might be mutually encouraged. So even with my own son as he encourages me, there's mutual giving and receiving even though we're not in, like, a David Jonathan friendship relationship, but a Paul Timothy relationship.
Speaker 2:So I would say draw the circle around yourself, and that one sidedness is pretty much your fault. I I would say, well, stop asking them 10 questions about what they have they don't even know who you are. Like, what do you what do you think? Like, identity is received. Right?
Speaker 2:So you're like, you have to give it away. So I in that place, I would really encourage stories, you know. First off, your story. I I'm I'm doing a I'm a coaching relationship right now, and this person was having a hard time kind of connecting with the Lord and everything else, and so I just kind of confessed. I was, like, look, I know I'm the Paul here.
Speaker 2:I'm 15 years older than you and very wise, but guess what? I'm I've sinned, and I sinned this weekend, and I blew it. Some stuff with my family and, you know, anger and yada yada yada. And the dude starts crying. He's, like, he's he's crying and he's pouring out his heart.
Speaker 2:I'm, like, what's going on? He's, like, I've never had anyone in this kind of position be vulnerable. And this is as is appropriate. I'm not saying to, like, a 5 year old, 8 year old, 6 year old kid, you're just saying whatever. But it's the idea that you're telling them a story that they can engage with because they don't care they they would the story is so powerful.
Speaker 2:Man, this is what happened to me today. What happened with you today? So I I would just say you're drawing that circle around yourself, and then you're starting to use different tools, which is, like, storytelling, seeing the need behind the deed, being embracing silence. If you're in sales, you know that. He who speaks first loses.
Speaker 2:I love doing sales calls over the phone because I would say, so are you ready to get moving forward? And I would sit there and be, like, I'm squealing him. Because whoever speaks first loses, and so just being comfortable in the silence, just embracing it. I mean, Elisha Elijah, he wasn't in the trembling rocks or the earthquake or the firestorm. He was in the still small part, quiet place or Matthew 6:6, your father who is in secret will see you and reward you.
Speaker 2:And so I think there's a couple things I'm like, if you're just beating the kid with questions and if he didn't care about you, he didn't know you, why would he talk to you? You know? So give yourself some grace and then draw the circle around yourself, tell some stories, ask them stories, and just be comfortable with silence. Because all those barriers, that's what silence does. It just basically and it allows it to come out, allows the kid to trust you to see that you're gonna be there even if it is awkward.
Speaker 2:So, anyway,
Speaker 1:I think What do you mean by draw the circle around yourself? Can you explain what that means?
Speaker 2:It really means take responsibility for what's in your cup, what's in your life, what's in your heart. And I think as I'm looking over this, like, yeah, you're trying to establish boundaries. You're trying to get them to talk, which is hard. And it could be frustrating if you're used to being in positions of power where people do what you say all the time. And you're saying,
Speaker 1:do what I want. Well And that doesn't work with a kid.
Speaker 2:That doesn't work with a kid. Just have kids, and you know that doesn't work. So, anyway, I I think when you're you're used to that, like, where even in, like you don't even have to be rich or white or in a position of power. We want what we want when we want it now. Thank you, iPhone, Instagram, Amazon Prime.
Speaker 2:I'm, like, it's gonna get here in 2 days and not overnight. Oh, this is the worst. They're mailing you a sink from China. Give it a second. You non contributing 0.
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh. So when you're drawing a circle around yourself, like you have the that you're having an emotional awareness that you're like, if you're berating the kid, like, just like, oh, I can't get this kid to talk. Well, it's not about you. Mhmm. You're just there to relate and to connect, and so it's almost having an awareness.
Speaker 2:Like, you just you're not leaving right from your work meeting, driving, listening to the ticket, getting that last dip in and spitting it out, getting some gum before you go meet with your kid. It's like you're wanting to enter into his world. You're wanting to be attention so you're taking responsibility for your day, for your heart. It's a little heart checkup. It doesn't have to be huge, but you're drawing the circle around it and then realizing that there's a need behind the deed so you can't put your expectations on them.
Speaker 2:And so you're drawing the circle and saying, okay, Jesus, I wanna partner with you. I mean, just simple. What are you doing today in my mentee? And then as you can own that, you're gonna have a sense, like, if I think about Jesus, the peace, the patience, he was never in a hurry. He wasn't flummoxed, and he's just he's just there.
Speaker 2:He's just able to be there. And so bringing that to the table, drawing the circle around yourself, and then using some of those other tools, the stories, the worldview, I think and it's it's gonna be horrible. I don't it it's gonna be hard. You'll tell a story, and they're gonna be like, oh, that's great. You're rich and white.
Speaker 2:Leave me alone. I mean, like so when I was driving my Lexus today, oh my gosh. You know? But the story part, I think, is so huge. So even thinking through what stories can I tell today?
Speaker 1:Mhmm. You
Speaker 2:know, stories in the Bible. Billy Bixby, I mean, and the dragon. I mean, like, what do you think this means? And then a little bit of vulnerability as appropriate, like, what can I share? Because it's mutual.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It's not just me being even with Jesus and the disciples, granted it was, like, getting smaller and smaller and smaller with the, you know, the 3 and then John being the beloved, but he was able to intimately share even though he was the savior of the world, and those women would take care of him and, like, enter into his world. So, like, even in Christ, we see that modeled. So I don't know. I just went on a little tangent there. So I think that's what I mean by drawing the circle around yourself is, like, taking responsibility for what's in your own cup, thinking intentionally about it, which is just kindness, and then thinking through stories you can share, etcetera, and viewing it as a mutual giving and taking participation would be helpful.
Speaker 1:I I like your setup of the mentor's expectations being off of of, like, what they expect from a mentor interaction. Mhmm. And so they may walk in with this this, this goal in their head of today, we are moving the ball forward. Like, we're we're gonna take this obstacle, and, like, we're gonna traverse it, and our relationship is gonna progress. And that's the goal today, is is whatever I've decided it is, not necessarily something that's informed by the Lord or by the kid.
Speaker 1:And that is the most frustrating thing
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:When you're driving to a mentor interaction, and you think of the best question in the world, and you just think, this is gonna move our relationship forward, and then it it completely bombs. And then you're sitting there and you're like, oh, well, I guess we could come to McDonald's, like, and you just you think of just well, what can I do? Like, I'll I'll do anything to earn earn this mentor interaction, like, to make it a win. I just I just wanna make it a win. That's all I want.
Speaker 1:And in doing that, I I I would never tell a mentor to not gamify the relationship because I feel like that will keep them coming back to, like, grow in the relationship and just develop an intentionality. Did you say gamify? Yeah.
Speaker 2:What does that mean?
Speaker 1:Like, to to recognize, like, all of the things you want to do in the relationship and to to attack those things and try and do them and knock the list out. And, like, the first time I met with Zomari, I had a list of 50 things I wanted to accomplish with him. And it was, like, 50 push ups. It was dunk a basketball. It's it's just fun things to do together.
Speaker 1:And that, for me, I was like, okay. Not gonna say that my mentor relationship is successful if we knock these 50 things out. But
Speaker 2:Gives you a guide.
Speaker 1:It gives us something to do, and and we don't have to think about it. It's just I hand him the list and say, what are we doing today? And that that creates, I guess, inability to not just go go with whatever the thing that came to your mind was or and feel discouraged when it doesn't work out. So I I wouldn't discourage people gamifying the mentor relationship, while at the same time, if you don't allow the the mentee to inform the content of the mentor relationship, like, kinda what you say of obstacles to relationship, like, kind of all die once you get on their level
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And see the world through their eyes and start doing the things that that they're passionate about, that they wanna do, that they're interested in, to where you you don't just come into this with all of these expectations of where you want to lead them. You just come to love and to be what they're with them and to know them. Mhmm. And I I think a lot of our our relationships, a lot of the obstacles that we face would would die if we didn't have as much expectation of ourselves. I love what you said about if most of our interactions with people, we are the one that gets what we want, and that's how our life goes.
Speaker 1:Once you enter into a mentor relationship where you're not getting what you want and it's not going as well as you thought it would, it makes sense that that would lead to a lot of frustration, and and ultimately, that frustration leads to people bailing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the I have three thoughts in response to that. I I love this. This is from Dallas Willard, The Divine Conspiracy, which if you want to have an acid trip without drugs, just read it. I'd, like, I can't even believe it, but he talks about Matthew 7 and ask, seek, knock, and the way he frames it, which I'd never heard this before, because we always think about, like, ask God, you know.
Speaker 2:But the way Willard frames it out is in the context of relationships. So the kingdom, he says, operates on the law of request. And I think in the course of that relationship is, like, requesting, hey. Would you like to talk about this, or what would you like to do today? You do need the vision because without vision you perish, but at the same time the way you said it is like, I'm here to be, I'm here to love.
Speaker 2:And so I think the idea of requesting, hey, would you like to share about this today or would you like to and giving choices. That's the empowering part of it. I mean, even with our kids, you have these two choices, and they both have consequences. You now have the power to choose. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Very Karen Purvis, by the way. But, hey, would you like to do McDonald's, or would you like to go to White Rock? You know, whatever else. And would you like to talk about this or this? And then you give them a path to follow based off of maybe some vision you have, and then you're empowering them along the way.
Speaker 1:What are the consequences of going to McDonald's? Well, diabetes.
Speaker 2:My brother and my wife love Filet O Fish, which is disgusting. That's amazing. That is made in a box. Those fish are bread in a box in a Chinese newspaper factory, and you I don't know how you're gonna live. Okay.
Speaker 2:But the other thing in the in the context of it is Dan Baumann. Do you know Dan Baumann? Heard of his name? Yeah. He was in prison in Iran.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's the guy that yeah. He's he's had a heck
Speaker 1:of a happiest person in the world. He, like, fell off a cliff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That was recent. I didn't even know that till, like, a year ago. But he was talking to Lord, and he's like, yeah, God. I just wanna know you.
Speaker 2:And he's, like, throwing rocks in this lake or whatever. He's like, yeah, Lord. What are you doing? And Dan hears the Lord, like, it's that it's not even fair, but whatever. And he felt like the Lord said, I just wanna throw rocks with you.
Speaker 2:And then Dan was like, why? And and and God said, well, because you're throwing rocks. I just wanna be with you. And, yeah, there's the adventure, but everything flows for us as believers out of intimacy. What who we are precedes what we do.
Speaker 2:That's Jesus. 30 years, didn't do squat. This is my beloved son. No miracles. Gets approved of and then goes.
Speaker 2:I think in the context of the mentor mentee relationship, that idea of, like, hey. What do you wanna do today? And just being with you. And what you said is, like, the bailing thing, which is exactly where these kids have been wounded, that's the temptation. Well, they're not I'm not getting what I want.
Speaker 2:They're not doing what I want. Well, repent, Jack Wagon. And then, a, why don't you be faithful for a little bit and endure something hard like the women of old, like Darlene Rose or Harriet Tubman that crossed the border and freed slaves. You can spend 30 minutes a week with a kid. Give me a break even if they're awkward.
Speaker 2:And so it's that relational commitment that's, like, I just wanna be with you. But you're not actually gonna want that because you have that thing of total depravity and your heart is wicked and evil, and that means you have to partner actually with the living God to do it. So it's impossible for you to do it without actually having received something of the love of God, where He entered into your world, because then you're not gonna wanna actually do it because they stink. They don't shower. They're different than you.
Speaker 2:They're annoying. They're kids. They're boys. Even worse. Like, their brains take longer to develop than the girls.
Speaker 2:They're not as sweet. They come from hard places. It's not gonna go well, but when you bail, you're literally doing the very thing that the enemy wounded them on. Mhmm. And so coming in with that idea of requests, hey.
Speaker 2:What do you wanna do today? Giving them some options. And that radical commitment that says I'm going to be with you, and there's nothing you can do to make me leave. Even if you don't wanna talk, I'll just be with you. If you just wanna sit here awkward and you get on TikTok, you're setting up your boundaries trying to get them not to do that, whatever, you just be with them, and that that is what's gonna help diffuse.
Speaker 2:I I keep my my hands are going up and down because lids get flipped. Remember, their eyes are walking around. Am I safe? Am I safe? And they're not gonna be safe with you for months.
Speaker 2:You're gonna spend 45 minutes. Babies are with their mom from the time they're conceived. Basically, to a year old in China, what they'll do is once they turn a year is the first time they actually set their kid down. It's like a big deal. So those babies are attached to their mamas, and these kiddos are not.
Speaker 2:Their mamas have to go work to earn a living, and you think you're gonna attach them in 30 minutes once a week? No. Hold on. Be steadfast. Do not quit.
Speaker 2:And that helps diffuse to where that fear center because that's what they're doing. Their brain is shut down. They don't trust you. They don't know if they're safe. So you come in with your eyes up smiling.
Speaker 2:Hey. Not overpowering them, like, Will Ferrell. Hey. How's it going? But just smiling, being yourself, that relational commitment just to be come hell or high water.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna be. And then what's gonna happen is your flesh is gonna come up. You're not gonna wanna be. You're gonna have to be so dependent on Christ that what actually comes out is not you, but Jesus.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And
Speaker 2:then there's actually something different about you than everybody else because it's actually God in you doing the loving because you cannot do it because without him, I could do nothing. If Jesus couldn't do it, then you can't do it. And so that's the bloody point for you is that it's gonna get rough as the mentor in such a way that your own junk's gonna come out. You have be dependent on Christ and actually to actually love them as they are, just like you've been loved. But if you haven't received God's love or you haven't been perfect, you're not gonna leave it away Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Which is freaking hard, and that's part of the point of the relationship. That's the mutual benefit is that from the mouth of babes, God's going to humble you so that you can actually partake and partner in the divine life of Christ, which belongs to the least of these these kids. And in that place of mutual giving participating, I get I'm I'm building it a bet their fear center is going to decrease. Their attachments and that desire to be wired to someone or something, which is gonna be TikTok or whatever it is they do or Instagram or Snapchat or Fortnite, they will attach to something. They want human interaction.
Speaker 2:They want it, but they're gonna do everything in their power to ruin it. Mhmm. Because why stay positive as the sign looks up? Because everyone in their life has left, except for maybe their mama, but she's gotta go to work. So that's why it's important to see the need behind the deed, and that's why it's important to draw the circle around yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Which I I something that I don't think we've said clearly, but I think I'm picking up from you, is in the conversation about obstacles to relationship, it's assumed that the obstacles are created by the kid. Yeah. But what we're saying is that You are the problem. That the mentor creates obstacles to relationship, and and acknowledging that is the drawing the circle around yourself
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And recognizing what parts of you are leading to the distance, the separation Yeah. The difficulty, and not just assuming, well, this is a kid from a hard place. They're the one that has all the problems.
Speaker 2:Plus I'm white, so I've got this.
Speaker 1:Sorry. And that's the humility of recognizing that we have needs Mhmm. And we go about meeting those needs in in wrong ways, and that creates obstacles to our relationships. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Including with the mentee.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So That's really good. I I think I think that's really powerful. So I don't I don't know if you could think, like, what are some practicals that, a mentor should take away from this episode as we kinda finish this
Speaker 2:Well, wait. We haven't actually talked about the the obstacles are. So the thing that I would say on this is you are the problem now that we've come to that conclusion. See, this is the journey. I didn't know where we're going.
Speaker 2:Now I realize that you mentors are the problem. I'm just kidding. Talking about healthy relationships, it's that partnership idea, and so that's, like, framing out how you view this relationship with this kiddo. Granted, you're gonna have more authority. You're gonna set boundaries.
Speaker 2:You're entering into their world, but I would say in the drawing the circle around yourself, the law of requests, the Dan Baumann just being with you Mhmm. In such a way that, eventually, you're gonna actually have to need Jesus to actually love them through you and love you through it. Otherwise, it's just transactional and there's nothing divine about it. There's nothing transformational about it. But I think I would I would push on the mentors to recognize, a, their own needs, which we talked about earlier, and on on their own ways where they basically sabotage relationships.
Speaker 2:So it's really quick. There's 3 ways. 1 is self reliance, the other is selfishness, and the other is self condemnation. So in the context of relationship with you and I, there'll be ways where you and I will sabotage our ability to attach and walk together and to share. One of it is self reliance.
Speaker 2:So think about frostbite. Frozen. Frozen. Frostbite. Frostbite, the movie.
Speaker 2:Elsa comes back. Is it Elsa the sister? The the queen? So self reliance is like her. She builds an ice tower, and she no one can get in and no one can get out.
Speaker 2:And so self reliance is, like, I don't have
Speaker 1:It's been a long time since I've seen that movie, but Yeah. I'm I'm picking up what you're throwing down.
Speaker 2:The idea of self reliance is I don't have needs, but if I did have them, I'd meet them myself.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And remember, we're saying we're made in the image likeness of God. We're made in the image of the Trinitarian God of the Bible where there's mutual giving and receiving. It's not good for man to be alone or a woman, and so we need relationships to develop cognitively, spiritually, emotionally. And so self reliance is I don't have needs, but if I did I'd meet them myself. And so the antidote to that is just humility.
Speaker 2:I do have needs and God wants to meet them through himself and others and maybe even this mentee. The next one is self condemnation.
Speaker 1:Or selfishness.
Speaker 2:Okay. I'll flip that one. Okay. But just do self condemnation, which is just shame, and it just sabotages the relationship. I blew it with the kid today.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was just I felt this that the other and it just sabotages so that no one could get in. It's like a fog of shame because you're so terrified of what's on the inside. It's like I do have needs and I feel terrible about myself because of them And so all of a sudden you're basically creating a smokescreen in your mentee relationship, and that's what they're seeing. Those kids are smarter than you. They're going, I see all that shame.
Speaker 2:I don't interact with that. You know what I mean? And so the antidote to that is really just gratitude. Hey. Thank you for being willing to listen to me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for hearing me. And then the last one is selfishness, and this is the toddler thing. This is I do have needs. I am the mentor, and we're gonna do this my way.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And we're gonna do it how I want because I've listed out 50 things that we're going to do and then the 10 rules for life from Proverbs, and it's like a toddler. So my baby sister who is 13 years younger me was, like, 3. She's a bower, so she's powerful. And she was choking out an 8 year old on the playground at Sunday school going, mommy, she won't play with me. And that selfishness, it's like I have needs and I want to met my way right now.
Speaker 2:And a lot of people are walking around like toddlers, and this just absolutely drives people away from you. And the antidote to that is just faith, just saying, okay, I do have needs, that's okay. God's gonna meet them, I trust him. And so you can flip that, like, once you own it for yourself, am I being selfish, self reliant, or, self condemning? And you usually have, like, 1 or one core one that you have, and then there's, like, the default.
Speaker 2:Like, the core one is there, and then the one that you kinda use is, like, a guard, whether it's, like, self condemnation or whatever. And then you can start viewing the need behind the deed for the kiddos going, okay. A lot of them are probably gonna be self all of them. Shoot. I feel bad.
Speaker 2:I know I need something. I don't know what it is. There's something wrong with me. Mhmm. Or screw you.
Speaker 2:Everybody left. You're gonna leave. So I'm gonna make this horrible, self reliant, or selfish, where they're just I could think some of the I mean, I have this too. So I'm just remembering some of the kids you can go through and go self reliant, self condemning, and, selfish. I could say their names, but I want, but I'm like, yep.
Speaker 2:Selfish. And they just create a freaking stink in the room because they want everyone to pay attention to it. Meet my needs. Meet my needs. And so seeing those things and recognizing how to respond to it personally and then with them is really gonna help bring that place to it, the attachment, that calm, that intimacy that we're wired for.
Speaker 2:So I don't know why I went on that tangent because that's what we're talking about today.
Speaker 1:Well, no. It's really good, John. And so for our mentors, those three areas, I think, are a great way to recognize what obstacles they're creating.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Where are you being self reliant? Where are you being selfish? Where are you being self condemning? And I and recognizing that those things aren't just a you thing, they're affecting your mentor relationship.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes.
Speaker 1:That that really addressing those is going to lead to greater health in the mentor relationship.
Speaker 2:Then our kids aren't gonna remember anything you say. They might remember something that you do, like, okay. We did some we did push ups or dunked a basketball, which I guess you used a trampoline for that for you to dunk a basketball, Steven. So just because you I I just can't
Speaker 1:but Well, I I I want to, like, break down what are, like, what are the selfish things mentors do? What are the self reliant things they do? What are the self condemning things they do? You kind of you kind of broke them down, but
Speaker 2:Well, the idea is that if you are manifesting one of those in your relationships and what you reproduce or give away is yourself, so you'll get just, like, 2% of what you say, 10% of what you do with them. So teaching them to shoot a basketball or, I don't know, set up a bank account, and then but they're you're gonna reproduce who you are. So if you're exalting your neediness everywhere, work, home, church, life, you're gonna do it with the kid.
Speaker 1:You don't
Speaker 2:all of a sudden put on your Jesus juke and, like, go, I'm not self reliant anymore, self or needy or whatever, selfish. It's going to be imparted. It's going to permeate, and that's why some of the times the kids are smarter than you going, I ain't connecting with this guy. They may not use that language, but their kids are smart. They can see this stuff.
Speaker 2:They may not be able to articulate, but they can see it. So recognize that in yourself because you're going to impart who you are. You're going to reproduce who you are, which is kind of terrifying, which brings us all the way back to humility and saying, Jesus help. I can't actually do this without you. So, anyway, I think that's a good challenge you saying you said, which is hopefully be in the show notes.
Speaker 2:The the
Speaker 1:Yeah. Just Would would you say that, I mean, each mentor has a leaning toward one of those or is all of them?
Speaker 2:No. When I when I talk with people and you can hear their stories, what I think is they're they usually do 2. 1, they use, like, 80% of the time, but that's, like, kind of a learned thing that gets before it gets to the core, like, when they're really desperate. So for me, I am Condemnation. For sure.
Speaker 2:80% condemnation, but when it gets down to it and I gotta get my needs met, I turn selfish. And I will get my needs met, and I don't care about anyone or anything other than me. But it's like, I feel bad I feel bad I feel bad, then it moves into I'm going to go Mhmm. Get my needs met. So because I'm the only one that can.
Speaker 2:No. The selfish is meaning, like the self reliant is more like I'm the only one who can. So I go from self condemnation, 80% of the time, I feel bad. There's something wrong with me, or I'm superhuman, and then I go down to subhuman. There's something wrong.
Speaker 2:I feel bad about this. Hey. Can I do this, that, or the other? But if my needs aren't getting met, eventually, they will get met, and then I turn into selfish, the toddler, throwing a fit, which is what I was confessing to my buddy earlier, because I want someone to pay attention to me now, my way. There's not a maturity at the core of my heart in some places that says, okay, God and others actually want to meet that need once they've seen through all of the ish of the shame Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:then trusting in that place that God and others are going to meet that need because I'm just lashing out to get it met. So I would say that you people tend to have something they use kind of like as a default that's kind of like the bigger mask. And then when you get down to the core of it, there's one of those self reliant, selfish, or self condemnation that's the real driver. That's really what's going on. And so it's just my been my experience as I process this with people.
Speaker 1:But, John, to wrap us up, would you share a proverb? Any facts, logical reason just to end this episode?
Speaker 2:It's probably your fault. So mature, grow up, grow in humility, and you'll make it because you're literally wired for this stuff. Everything in your being wants intimacy, wants partnership, but you gotta choose it. And it's really freaking hard to until you have a kind of grid for it, and even then it becomes tough. I mean, anyway but you're literally made for this.
Speaker 2:You can freaking mentor, if I could say freaking. You can do it, and it's gonna be messy and you're gonna blow up, but don't quit. You can mentor. So there you go.
Speaker 1:So good. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Join us next week for the final installment of the relational needs series with Jon Bauer. Thanks for listening.