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Welcome to the official podcast of Living Streams Church in Phoenix, Arizona. Our mission is to display God’s glory, build courageous people, and engage in society’s pain. We believe these messages, sermons, and special episodes will help you grow in that journey. To learn more about Living Streams Church, visit livingstreams.org, and follow us on social media @livingstreamschurch.
All right, well, welcome everyone to this
version of the Living
Streams Church podcast.
I'm David Stockton and I
got Anthony Kennada with us.
So I'm so excited for you guys to get to
meet today and actually all summer long.
We're doing something different than
we've normally done.
we've normally done.
We will still be doing some deep dives
and talking a little bit about the sermon
and some of those things off and on.
But really, this is a companion piece to
this idea of being human that we're
looking at in our Sunday sermons.
But yeah, we're going to introduce you to
some humans throughout the next two
months as we do this podcast.
Anthony and I will be together on these
things and it'll be a lot of fun.
We've been having lots of time together
over the last few years doing
walks along this golf course.
We're actually sort of neighbors.
And as we've been doing it, we've been
talking a lot about
life and maybe midlife
and career and work and faith and a lot
of tech, a lot of Twitter.
I guess it's not Twitter, a lot of X
stuff going on in there.
Just trying to really understand the time
we're living in and manage our own souls
and our families and
our marriages and our work
in light of all of those things and
hopefully trying to find some wisdom and
spur one another on towards some of that.
So I'm excited to be able to do that with
a broader audience, potentially.
Not that we have it all together, have it
all figured out, but we've enjoyed the
camaraderie and the time together.
And I think it might be
helpful for some others out there.
So thanks for doing this, Anthony, of
course, for joining us.
And yeah, so we're going to be doing, you
know, different episodes
each week along these lines.
And why don't you start just give a
little bit of your hope and vision for
this and then I'll do the same as well.
Absolutely. I mean, I think when I when
you hear the the title of the sermon
series of the podcast,
this idea of being human,
feels like maybe, I don't know, five
years ago that you would ask, like, why
are we talking about our humanity, like
at least in this this context?
Why are we asking some
of these deeper questions?
But having sort of grown up
professionally in Silicon Valley and
working in tech and all
things I think we'll talk about,
someone who has tried to walk kind of the
straight and narrow in a very secular
industry, but also finding a lot of
meaning in this idea of
helping create the future,
working in an innovative kind of
opportunity or sector career path and
feeling a sense of calling around that.
It feels like the last three years with
the advent of AI is really kind of
challenging this notion of our humanity.
And really, I don't mean this, and my
hope for this podcast is not to portray
AI as this sort of like completely
negative, like horrible thing.
I think there's a lot of good that will
come from AI as well.
But the reality is that it's asking, it's
forcing a lot of us to ask some pretty
deep questions, whether you're a believer
in Jesus or you're just one of the one
billion knowledge workers in the world,
people that are working in
front of a computer all day.
There's a disruption that is coming.
There's a lot of uncertainty around,
like, what does my job look like?
Do what will I have a job?
What does this mean for my sense of
providership or how I'll be able to
contribute to the family?
And maybe even some deeper existential
questions of what does work even mean?
You see some of these mentioned the X
Twitter kind of posts and people are
like, we're going to
live in a post-work society.
Like, what does that even mean for people
who care deeply about their work?
And maybe they don't intend to make work
their identity, but really feel a sense
of purpose around their contribution to
God's kind of redemptive plan for the
earth through their work.
So I'm really excited and I'm
appreciative of the
invitation to be a part of this.
And I think the point that you kind of
referenced earlier is a good one.
I don't think we have all the answers, at
least for some of the stuff, right?
So much as late breaking.
But creating a space to have
conversation, to invite maybe even others
that are around both the work kind of
side, the theology side, the tech and
innovation side as well,
and just trying to have a conversation
where we learn together in public on what
this means for us as
believers in this time and place.
And I'm hopeful that I think we'll get to
some really interesting kind of ideas on
the other side of it, some breakthrough.
Totally, totally. The thing that I've
kind of been keeping in mind is it's such
a vast, like, well, cosmos, but even just
the technology reality of the general,
the open, the AI, the agent,
like all these different
morphing that are happening.
Obviously, the world's a big place.
There's a lot of different thoughts, a
lot of different theories.
There's multiple faiths.
There's endless amounts of careers.
So it's funny, I
sometimes get overwhelmed.
I'm thinking, like, how am I supposed to
even get my mind around all this stuff?
But what I've just said is like, well, if
I just root myself in a
biblical anthropology,
like if I can really understand what the
Bible teaches as human and what the Bible
teaches as human flourishing,
it's like those two words,
like human and flourishing.
If I can figure out what the Bible has to
say about those things, then I feel like
I'll be able to navigate whatever comes.
Because, you know, some of the technology
kind of is a flash in the pan, right?
Like it comes and like we talk about the
dot com bubble, that
burst or whatever, like.
And obviously, there's some remnant of
all of those things, no doubt about it.
But it wasn't all that
everyone thought it was going to be.
You know, it was it was it was it was a
minor disruption, not a major one.
Now, artificial intelligence seems seems
a little different, a little
more robust than some of that.
But at the same time, there will be
things that, you know,
kind of spike and fall.
I mean, we joked about the the young
people and all their
commencement addresses.
If if a commencement speaker started to
talk about, they just
started bowing them right away,
which was which I think is actually
hilarious because I think they're saying,
hey, let us write the future.
Like, don't don't tell us
exactly what's going to happen.
I love a lot of that spirit. Like if if
we're going to have to be smarter and
tougher, we're going to
be smarter and tougher.
Like, I love a little bit of that, even
though there might be some ignorance.
Yeah, yeah. But I do.
I just think if we can if we can root
ourselves in the stuff that has proven
itself over and over and over,
no matter what technological advances
have come in human history, no matter
what threats have come to humanity.
And the two things that we're talking
about in the sermon series is is, yes,
the artificial intelligence
reality of that technology
and and how it can be disorienting unless
we have a real good compass and we have a
real good guideline.
But I think that I think there's just
we're hopefully going to have a lot of at
least camaraderie and companionship
for people who are in that space and
trying to figure out how
to muddle their way forward.
And hopefully, you know, with some of the
speakers that will bring in and some of
the work that we're doing,
we'll actually be able to bring some
treasures of wisdom to help.
But I know we're living it, too. So
there's something fun about that.
It's like we're in
the lab right now. Yeah.
Not so this podcast is supposed to be is
a little bit of like,
let's get in the lab.
Let's learn. Let's test. Let's prove. And
then let's share. See what happens. Yeah.
I think what's cool about that is to some
extent, this is the first time in history
that everyone's in the lab.
Like no one has, at least from the AI
perspective, certainly a lot to figure
out on the other end.
But even the folks kind of building the
tools are saying, like, look, like we
need to put guardrails in
place, so on and so forth.
But even the sharpest voices in the heart
of Silicon Valley that are building these
things are asking
questions and are kind of,
you know, creating spaces for
conversations like this one.
So I'm really excited to be approaching
the conversation from a biblical point of
view and and to kind of unpack it
together in that way.
There was one article that I read. It was
from Axios and in it, they were
describing this this cultural moment.
And they said, basically, in some metrics
like, you know, the life expectancy in
America is more than it's ever been.
The accumulation of wealth in America is
more than it's ever been.
And there were just all these metrics
that were just saying, this is an
absolutely amazing time to be human,
particularly in America.
And and yet, you know, all of these
Gallup polls and all of these, you know,
they did a study at University of
Michigan and everyone's going,
things aren't good, you know, things are
getting worse and, you know, it's going
to be hard for everyone.
And it was like there's this gap between
reality and then and then feeling.
And and I think that sense of feeling or
that it's not that that's
not real, that's not real.
It is real. I think everyone's kind of
going, something's not quite right.
Yes, even though you're telling me it's
OK, something is not OK.
And it might be more inside the human
soul than it is
actually, you know, in society.
But either way, they said that they
called us the rattled generation.
And I think this is, you know, playing
off a little bit of the anxious
generation that Jonathan hate.
And he described covid wiping out all of
our resilience, like it used up all of
our coping mechanisms.
And it was like, but we needed those to
go through this digital disruption.
Yeah, we don't have anything like there's
nothing left in the tank.
And so all of us are just kind of like,
whoa, just trying to float through and
say, hey, we don't feel what they said
was we're too unsteady and too uncertain
to even know if something
is good or not right now.
And again, I just feel like
that there's a lot of in that.
And I remember actually the first time we
went for a walk, that was a little bit of
what you were trying to describe.
Yeah, I don't know if
I'm having some anxiety.
I'm having some some just like there's
some stuff inside of me.
And when I look
outside, like everything's OK.
But I've had that I almost it's not a
dread dreads, probably too powerful of
word, but it's like just this sense that
like, I don't know, man, I just don't
know if I'm on the right track.
I don't know if if, you know,
something serious is coming.
And I have this sense about it.
But I think there's a lot of people that
could really relate to that.
And so we want to go right
into that and not solve it.
But but like kind of give some
companionship, give some crottery and and
work our way through it.
And I love you actually said that you
want to, you know, before you even leave
this this space, you want to figure out
how to help as many people in this space
as possible, which I love that.
I love that. I'm so
excited about you guys.
Anthony Moore. And so
let's get into your story.
Let's get let's get the
origin story of Anthony Kanata.
And let's start with work. So I'll just
frame it real quick for us.
We've continued to talk about the
intersection of work and tech and faith.
And that's really where we want we want
to live at that intersection because that
intersection is it's kind of like been a
crash for a lot of people.
And in your life, there's that's kind of
where you you were you
were going real good.
Things were going strong. And then all of
a sudden, you know, a little bit of those
three things converged.
And you've been kind of going, OK, hold
on. I need to figure this out.
And so that intersection
of work and tech and faith.
So first of all, give us a little bit of
your work story and then your tech story
and your faith story.
Well, even just a touch
on you mentioned anxiety.
And so I think that the context by which
I even have attempted
to approach my career,
I think is rooted in growing up as an
only child, divorced parents.
So really kind of mostly raised by my mom
from another culture who
immigrated here to the U.S.
And so a lot of dynamics. And I think the
biggest one in play for my career mostly
is not a lot of great models
of like what it meant to be.
An executive or professional or even a
father or husband or a man.
And so that did, I think, two things for
me that fed into my career, one really
good and one that I think I'm paying off
a little bit now in my my mental health,
maybe more than one on the professional
side, it put this chip on my shoulder
because I think, you know,
and I don't know if this resonates with
others that might have had a similar
upbringing or background.
My like operating system, my gut
orientation was around I'm going to prove
that I can do it without a model.
I'm going to do it my way or
whatever the case is. Right.
And so it fed this like really strong
sense of ambition and
really wanted me to, you know,
it drove me forward to really try to
build something and as I build a family
to build, build a career and so on.
The shadow side, of course, is like an
immense amount of anxiety along the way,
which we'll talk about.
We've talked about a lot on our walks.
And so I do think for folks, again, who
feel very career driven, oftentimes there
is this shadow side of your mental health
and your well-being.
And so I want to kind of acknowledge that
as we kind of go forward through my
story, which, by the way, is meant to not
be just I think about me,
but just, you know, I assume this is
something that others have felt right.
The humanity of it all. And so I kind of
punched above my weight and got into a
college that was really good,
graduated into the workforce.
And I found myself at 21
years old in Silicon Valley.
I moved from L.A., kind of
where I'm from originally.
And I got I got a very entry level job.
But what I didn't know at the time was
that the company that was really helping
one of the few companies really helping
drive a major kind of technology platform
shift company was called Box.
And at the time, we were kind of still
selling software for those that can
remember it on premise is the word we use
in the industry or anyone remembers going
to best buy and buying like boxes of CDs
of software to install.
Like we had this like physical component
to technology and it was moving to the
cloud where everything was available on
our mobile phones,
right, many devices and so on.
And so I had a chance to kind of see this
major technology shift, which, of course,
comes into play today.
But I was also like the first 40
employees at this company called Box.
And it went it was incredible.
And so it felt like kind of at the time,
at least being very young, kind of the
golden era of Silicon Valley, at least
through my kind of experience of it.
And so that had a really good run there,
leveraged that experience.
I think for a lot of folks, especially if
your early career, getting a great logo
on your resume early is important.
It's good. It's really good leverage.
Even if the role wasn't like amazing, you
can really tell a story around it.
So I tried to leverage that experience at
Box and joined another
company called Live Office.
We ended up selling that to a
big company called Symantec.
I worked at Symantec was a massive kind
of Fortune 500
company, at least at the time.
And a really interesting turn of events
happened where my boss, my boss's boss
and my boss's boss all
left around at the same time.
And so at like 23 years old, I had a
chance to like report basically one
degree removed from the CEO of this
Fortune 500 company.
It was an incredible experience and a
really good story for your career, which
again, I think this idea of storytelling,
I think, keeps coming into play.
But that all set the stage for me to get
what ended up becoming sort of this big
opportunity, which was to come in very
early at a startup that was pre-revenue,
just kind of getting started all kind of
in the same broad space
of enterprise software.
The company that would be called
GainSight and again, super, super early.
But over the course of seven years, we
built that business from, again,
pre-revenue to about 100
million of recurring revenue.
We ended up selling the company for over
a billion dollars in 2020.
We ended up creating kind of a movement
behind software, which sounds like a
thing a marketer might say.
But truly, like we focus on how can we
serve this persona that exists within a
company that no one
is paying attention to?
And how can we resource them with content
to help them do their job better,
communities that they feel
just a little bit less alone?
And the bet was if we can serve them, can
we build a great software
company on the back of it?
And so that approach became novel and it
wasn't this like really thing that we
went into it thinking, OK, we should
basically run this play.
It was a set of accidents.
But ultimately, I think that and great
execution across the company ended up
leading us to having this
really good exit in 2020.
And so I had a chance to write a book
about that playbook
called Category Creation.
And so all this to be said, from the
professional context, you know, I am now
at that point 12, 10 to 12 years into my
career and seemingly at least maybe not
the absolute pinnacle of Silicon Valley.
But I can sort of tell a story to that
little boy at least who didn't have that
model that I made it,
whatever that means.
Right. I sort of like made it.
And throughout that journey, one thing
that I'm sort of grateful for is I've
tried to again, there wasn't this sort of
like losing of my faith.
There wasn't this stepping away.
And I've always tried to keep this kind
of tension of work as idolatry or
workaholism or whatever to
almost a healthy balance of.
How I approached work where it wasn't my
identity, but it was truly a part of my
purpose that Silicon Valley in and of
itself, which a lot I can talk about
here, isn't this dark
kind of secular industry.
I mean, you could be through one
interpretation through another.
It's a mission field and it's a chance
for me to like both implicitly and
explicitly model my
faith in this practice.
And so I I shared that because my
intentions were pure.
Right. And it's a
struggle and not everyone.
I don't think anyone gets it 100 percent
right the whole time.
But that was certainly
something that was building.
And so after that,
I'll speed up the story.
A couple other CMO roles,
leading marketing teams.
And then I felt this this true sense of
vocational calling, at
least to start a company.
And so, you know, for whatever reason, it
might be, again, that same kid who is
trying to prove
something to other people.
I don't know. But I wasn't like the risk
of like going all in and being an
entrepreneur and starting a company
didn't really faze me.
It impacted. It excited me quite a bit.
And so I had this concept
for a technology product.
We raised about twelve million dollars
over two rounds for from
really great investors,
like, again, all the the momentum was
there to build something great.
And I think this is where we start to
approach the intersection
a little bit of the story.
But the the quick version, and then I'm
happy to kind of zoom in
anywhere here, is three years in.
As many entrepreneurs know, it's not
easy, but it ended up failing like we
ended up not reaching
our fullest potential,
which would have been enough like that
was enough to stress anyone.
I think this idea of
failure, like, what do we do next?
But in that three year window where I was
I sort of got off of the career path of
being a CMO, became an
entrepreneur, founder,
failed, a lot happened.
Chat GPT came out right.
This was November of twenty twenty three,
I believe, when chat GPT first
came out, my been twenty two.
The we the entire role of the CMO has
changed, where now we were
less sort of these executives,
these leaders of people that were kind of
guiding vision and then
hiring a team to go execute.
The expectation was we would roll up our
sleeves and do the work as well.
We'd be familiar with the tools.
They're sort of like a there's a term in
tech right now around nine, nine, six,
that we would be working from nine a.m.
to nine p.m. six days a week was
effectively like the buzzword around that
expectation, which again, not everyone,
I think, wholly subscribes to, but I
think is certainly a thing.
Beyond that, I'm very, you know, I'm in
Phoenix and I'm, of course, a member of
Living Streams and the
world started shifting back,
at least from a technology
perspective, back in the office.
And so now it wasn't carving my own path
to start a company here in Phoenix.
And my family can continue to be a part
of the Living Streams community and our
school communities and all these things.
There was a growing expectation that if I
wanted to be if I wanted to attempt to
get back to the top of that CMO rung,
I have to move back to San Francisco.
And so all of this sort of has led to
this kind of existential conversation
around, wait a minute,
like, what am I doing?
And you hit the note earlier, I'm
approaching 40 this year.
And so that's kind of another big kind of
conversation, like, what do I what do we
what's how do I think about
the next kind of season of life?
And how does work fit into that?
And, you know, again, we had a good exit
in 2020, but I got a lot more
contribution to make to the
family for us to, you know,
it's not like it was
that great of an exit.
So I share all that to say, and I've
skipped over so much, of course, but I
now, as someone who
seemingly, again, quote unquote,
made it five years ago, six years ago,
you know, and facing this moment with
uncertainty and doubt and a lot more
questions than answers,
not because, again, working
in technology as exciting.
I think there's a lot of parts of it that
are extremely exciting, but finding my
own way in where I fit in
this movement or in this kind of
season of our industry is not clear.
So that's at a high level. Yeah. Well, I
think I mean, I love that.
And that's that's the background that so
much of this makes sense is it's because
you had you kind of had that
career path and you had that
that that I guess in it, you probably
weren't even thinking about like, where
is all this going or how
long is this going to last?
I mean, you were just building and you
were just you were just living into
calling and your gifts were being used
and your your and your gifts were being
developed at the same time
and getting home and sharpened.
And and then, yeah, I think that's that
what it's it's funny
because you describe the.
Being the marketer as a part of a team
and then actually kind of being the
leader of of the team and carrying all
the other weights of a CEO or a founder.
I mean, that's it's like a those are such
different worlds in some ways.
And and and I think one of the questions
I had was so at what point like with your
tech story, like at what point did tech
enhance but then start to interfere?
And so, you know, you had this trajectory
and I know that you have some family
stuff that kind of went went
on during that time as well.
Yeah. You know, all of our conversations
through there was like, do I
move back to San Francisco?
What's best for my family?
And and trying to navigate that.
And how do you how do
you like pay the bills?
But then you even talked about like,
well, do we just downsize?
Do we like you were just going through a
lot of different options to try and
figure out what the next thing was.
But a lot of that had to do with because
now all of your skill set, you were
trying to be honest to yourself and you
could have gone and sold yourself and
said, hey, you need me
to do all this marketing.
But the truth was, no, you just need a
better understanding of Claude or you
like you just know how
to use the tools better.
And you actually said multiple times you
could hire some 22 year old that that
knows how to navigate A.I.
And you could pay them less and they
could do almost the same job.
Now you have experience in kind of like a
like a aesthetic and all those things.
And you're really good at what you do.
But that was like you were trying to stay
honest to yourself and say, well, tech
really has completely almost pulled the
rug out from underneath.
Yeah, what we were doing. So describe a
little bit of that that crash, like
you're on your track and then and then
you try to do the CEO thing.
But it was like you just haven't been
able to really figure out how to go
forward because tech every time every
time there's like an opportunity, it's
like, well, if someone really knew how to
use tech, they could just use that.
And it's hard to. Yeah, it's
hard to get excited about that.
Like, yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm just trying
to compete against tech for a job.
No, I don't want to do
that. It's crazy. Yeah.
No, I mean, I think I think that until
twenty twenty two or twenty twenty three,
when we say tech, what we really mean is
we're building software that enables
humans to do work more efficiently.
Right. At least on the again, the work
kind of enterprise context.
The big shift that happened while I was
building software for humans to do work
was now the technology and the software
was doing the actual work.
The actual units of
work that had to happen.
We can now basically train an agent on
top of a model, try to codify a lot of
our experience or best practices or
processes, what good looks like
and allow that agent to
actually execute the work.
And so that in and of itself, I won't say
it's what killed my company, but it's
that over the long arc of time,
if you zoom out and forget about all the
mistakes we made and everything, which
were plenty, that's the existential
threat is like I was building software
for another generation.
Basically, that doesn't exist anymore.
On the note of like the work, it's really
interesting because the age that you
referenced is actually a true very true
in that I I started to experience a bit
of bias as well around
like, oh, you're not 17 or more.
What's a proper age?
Nineteen living in San Francisco, like
not even Palo Alto, like San Francisco,
Soma, like literally like in the heart of
it, four and five area code
working seven days a week.
And if you're building software in this
other market and you have a family and
you care about boundaries, like all these
things, we're going to write the check
for the other person, right?
And so you start to see kind of the
pattern matching happening for companies
that are getting funded.
And you're like, gosh, these
are all like like a thirty nine.
Am I too old to start a company?
I thought this was like like
right in the in the heart of it.
So there was a little bit
of that, I think, going on.
I will say that I do think there's.
You know, I don't think this is just like
me trying to be overly optimistic, but I
will say it's important to to like
separate hype from reality.
And and sometimes I think in the season
one right now, hype sometimes wins.
But I do think like I'm long term
optimistic, right, that marketers
actually have certain types of marketers
actually have have
quite a bit of role to play.
And the way I think about it, sort of the
front end and back end of AI or agentic
work, the front end is you got to ask the
right questions, kind of like
we're doing on this podcast.
Right. We have to know what to ask.
And that doesn't come from random acts of
marketing or whatever that comes from
from wisdom, from being it, which is
different than knowledge.
If knowledge is put in the box,
experience wisdom is what enables us to
prompt the thing with
the right questions.
It also we need to make sure that the
thing that the whether it's cloud or
whatever we're using has the right data
and governance and all these things.
So it's using the context in the right
way to make the right decisions.
And then I think on the other end, how
many of us have been on the other side of
a chat, GPT output or whatever?
And we're like, that's not even close to
what I thought, you
know, was good or whatever.
How do you then sort of follow up and
sort of use taste as the language that
the industry has really adopted to kind
of drive it home to the finish line?
But besides the point, I don't know, you
know, we can talk optimism later.
All of this was very well. I've heard you
use the phrase A.I.
slop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And and I think that there's I think
we're already I mean, it's so brand new,
but we're already to the point where like
an Instagram feed, you
see something you like that.
That is that's A.I. generated. And you're
like, like, even if it's better than
something else, there's just something
inside you that that just dies a little.
Yes. And I think I think whatever like
describe describe a little bit of that
moment, because I think obviously on the
output, like you're describing, there's
already a distaste for
something that is A.I.
Yet there's an honesty saying it's but
it's better. Like it's it's cleaner, it's
crisper, it's more to the point.
Like no one's saying it's not better, but
it's just not interesting.
And it's almost I mean, maybe maybe but
there's a market for pop music, right?
There's a market for fast food that is
really strong, even though everyone might
say we still like the other stuff better.
There's still vast like people making a
lot of money in fast food and pop music.
So I don't know. They describe
that that a little bit. Yeah.
Well, I think it goes back to your point
about the anxious generation or the
rattle generation, because I think I
think the point's good.
Like there's a lot of, again, efficiency
in our world, right?
I'm less on the consumer side of tech.
There's a lot of like you can move
faster, you can cover more ground, you
can do a lot of great things with it.
I think the reality is when we log on to
our devices now, we don't
know what's real anymore.
And that is at the fundamental like heart
level or mental health level, at least,
where we feel the sense of numbness
almost, where we can see, first of all,
like the level of access we have on
social media is insane.
We're seeing things we should never see.
We're part of like the 24
seven kind of news cycle.
It's interruptive. We're getting push
notifications for everything.
But now we don't even know if the things
that we're seeing are actually even real.
So no, no, like it's not a surprise that
we're feeling the sense of numbness, I
think collectively, as
at least my generation is.
And so I think that's kind of part of it
is there's almost this like desire or
heart for human, human
created stuff to celebrate humanity.
Humanity becomes a premium as from a
marketing point of view in the future,
because it's not slop.
It's not cheaply executed like things.
There's this degree of like curation and
feeling a sense of someone put a lot of
thought and energy
into creating something.
So I do think the
pendulum is starting to swing.
We see it with in-person events and
communities as well, where we went from a
world where we can just, I don't know,
FaceTime anyone or create a
Zoom meeting or whatever to being able to
actually do like get in front of other
people and create this sense of belonging
that you just can't replicate online.
So I'm hopeful that there is a swing back
to the analog throughout all of this.
But I wanted to share a quick example of
maybe one that sort
of walks the line here.
Did you hear the Puerto Rico song that
went kind of viral for a hot minute?
You hear this? So, OK, there is a creator
who basically travels to these cities and
then like he's a comedian, writes songs
about different cities and he's actually
crafting the lyrics himself.
But then he feeds it into this tool
called Sona or something along those
lines, and it'll generate a super poppy
or whatever genre like
song using his lyrics.
And so this song just took off about San
Juan, Puerto Rico and
a trip that he took.
And what was interesting about in the
debate in culture and
in social media was.
It's all like the vocals, the
music, all of it is not real.
There was no musician
that actually generated it.
But we love the song.
How do we feel about that?
And the argument that I thought was was
well placed was, well, you've got this
comedian, creator, writer who actually
wrote every word of this.
And so all of that kind of humanity came
in and sort of like the
forefront of that process.
He used the technology to produce and
generate and surely there must have been
different iterations of it along the way.
But then he filmed all the content and
put a video together that he
distributed to his audience.
So then on the back end, the humanity
kind of came in as well.
And so I wonder if there's a middle
ground here over time, too, where we're
leveraging the technology
strategically, but not just.
Prompting content, publishing, whatever
they see and then getting lost in this
sort of like fake, cheap level of content
that nobody wants to know what I think.
I mean, unless you're like, what's the
capital of some random.
Right. And so in that example, it's
interesting because that
was he had a lived experience.
He was in the one he was experiencing it
and he was writing and
recording his real human experience.
The organic experience of it all.
And then, yeah, as far as how it got to
the masses, you know, had
some assistance in that.
And then I don't know what
they think, but I like that.
It's funny, I had an
example just the other day.
Our youth pastor was going to share in
our in one of our services.
And and so we were
working together on his message.
And I was like, OK, why don't you craft
something kind of an outline and send it
to me and then we can talk it through.
And when he sent it to
me, I was like, I read it.
And then we got on a
FaceTime call and I said.
And this is the first
time I've ever done this.
My first question to him was I said, OK,
can you just tell me?
And I said, it's it's
really not a big deal either way.
Like how much I was
used in creating this.
And it wasn't I wasn't a judgment.
I literally was not saying, you know, if
you used A.I., you're busted or whatever.
Yeah. And he said, well, I wrote down all
these things, but I did ask
it to kind of organize the
pattern of thought.
And it was funny because
I said, that's perfect.
Thank you so much, because now I know how
to interact with you in this piece
because I'll know I'll know more of
what's you and what was was helped.
And so literally the organization of the
thought pattern was very good.
So I thought, yeah,
totally flows really well.
But he got help with that.
And again, that's nothing wrong.
He might have been able to
come up with it on his own.
But but as far as the material and as far
as the stories, as far as what he was
trying to bring out, this
this was all his. But it was so funny
because I just was like, before I even
start talking to you about this,
I just need to know.
And and I thought that's interesting.
That's telling because it's so prevalent
now that we're aware it's there.
I mean, my wife, a
teacher in a school, too.
She has this funny relationship.
She actually thinks it's great.
But she also is like, why
are we giving kids homework?
It makes no sense to
give a kid homework, right?
Because they just go home and I will
either teach them the stuff that I was
supposed to teach them and
must not have done a good job.
Or they'll just have a I do it and and
then say and make sure
it's not good enough.
Make sure it messes it up a little bit so
my teacher knows it's me.
And I can write that.
So she's like, I'm not going to
ultimately be able to tell like A.I.
can out. Yeah. Me.
So then she's like, so
why are we doing homework?
Yeah, yeah. It's a
good theological question.
They're like going back to your you're
prompting about technology.
And I'd love to get your take on it.
You know, when we think about A.I.
is not the first like disruptive
technology that we've implemented and
integrated into how we live and work.
You know, social media is has
a lot of bad things with it.
And I think well-documented,
well-discussed, a lot of
bad contribution to it.
Here we are on a podcast creating content
that we're going to distribute on social
media and cast a wide net to
get a lot of people to hear.
Hopefully some nuggets of wisdom or value
or feel maybe a little less alone when
when with their own kind
of struggle or journey.
You know, you could argue like computers
have brought a lot of our
laptops or personal at home
computers or phones or whatever have
brought a lot of access to things that a
lot of young people shouldn't see, older
people shouldn't see.
Right. But they've enabled us to write
our our sermons, right, to reverses like
handwriting everything.
Right. There's like value to technology.
And so I'm curious, obviously, this has
this is slightly different in that A.I.
has this sort of ability to like we've
never used the word knowledge before, I
think, in context of
technology in this way.
But is there any guidance that you would
have from a theological lens even on how
to maybe approach kind of a healthy
relationship with technology knowing that
this isn't the first?
Digital discipline,
right? That's the phrase.
Like, like how do we have
the correct digital discipline?
And I mean, it always comes down to
self-discipline, I think, self-control.
Yeah, it's one of the
fruits of the spirit.
It's at the end of the list.
So we usually talk
about love, joy and peace.
But the last one is self-control.
And I think with any technology, with any
advancement, with
anything we can overdo it.
You know, it can become an idol.
It can become something that is is we're
relying on too much or whatever.
And so I just think that there just needs
to be a healthy amount of discipline.
So you talk about social media and like
the scrolling and all those things.
It's like, well, well, there's lots of
studies to show that too
much of that's really bad.
There was lots of studies to show that
too much, you know, alcohol or cigarettes
or coffee is really bad.
So everything just requires, you know, a
certain amount of self-control.
Yeah. So that we're not overdoing it.
But when it comes to
technology and AI, I mean.
Yeah, I think I think we we just.
We have no idea the full ramifications,
but we know it seems major.
And when I think about, you know, this
this high school pastor who's using AI to
help organize his thoughts,
maybe he knows that that's one of the
things that he's not the strongest at.
Yeah. So he can use it to help him so
that more students can kind
of follow his train of thought.
And it can be a better thing. I mean, I
have no problem with that now.
But he can't hide behind that or he can't
like, you know, I love all those
political commercials where they're like,
I'm this person and I
approve this message.
It's like, well, how do
we know that it's so funny?
But they're trying to show like this
isn't just something that was created and
I had nothing to do with.
But it's funny. It's like, how do I know
that that's not just an AI
creation of you saying that,
which I'm sure many times it
is or like a signature, right?
Auto signature that that people have.
So I think that I think that
we do have to ask questions.
We do have to hunger for authenticity.
We do have to just know what it is.
And, you know, if we're if we're like
processing something that's artificially
created, artificial intelligence,
just know what that is.
I do think, you know,
one of the the Pope Leo,
14th, his encyclical just came out, which
is basically he's saying to all the
priests of the world,
which there's a lot of those.
And he's saying, this is the stuff I want
you to be focusing on as
you pastor your people.
And one of them was was really, I mean,
he he's basically warning against A.I.
And and I don't I don't I
mean, again, I think A.I.
is just it's a human tool that's been
created by humans that
that will either help humans,
but it also has can have a
shadow side, like you said.
But I love that.
It would erode human judgment.
And that that's the one
that just is scary to me.
And I think a bit what we were talking
about before, like we've created a hunger
in America for fast food,
like a Taco Bell taco.
It's not the greatest
taco or that bean burrito.
It's not that. But whatever that bean
burrito taste is, it's
just like, yes, it's great.
Now, if you want a bean burrito and like
you don't go to Taco Bell, you go, you
know, you go to
something that's more authentic.
But if you want to Taco Bell bean
burrito, there's nothing like it.
You know, that's not that tortilla and
the right amount of beans.
And, you know, it's it's so funny.
Like, it's just so good and so cheap.
Yeah. And and we've but we now have
developed a taste for that.
Yes, my wife has
developed a taste for Diet Coke.
It is a disgusting brew of chemicals.
But, you know, whatever it is, it's like,
you know, no calories or whatever,
whatever she likes about it, the ice, the
cold, the summer in Phoenix.
So last night we were out there, the two
of us, we both got Diet Cokes.
I don't even like Diet
Coke, but I like my wife.
So we're just eating
Diet Cokes out there.
And I think we we do have to be careful
that we don't like erode.
Our ability to know what's
real, to know what's true.
We can't we can't we can't allow
something else to dictate.
What is true, what is good, what is
right, what is real to us?
And so that's where I love.
But I'm just not afraid
of humanity losing that.
I think we have the spirit of God of us.
So the fact that A.I. is producing these
really cool, amazing when I see them and
many people see them, you go,
I'm not interested in that.
It's too, it's too perfect.
It's not real.
And and I just think that humanity is
always going to have that like art.
Yeah, there's always got an art.
There's always been a hunger for art and
then human connection.
I just there's there's never going to be.
And people are going to A.I.
for counseling and things
like that, which is wild.
And and sometimes I can understand it
because it can help you
think a little clearer,
like more logically.
But but it's never going to be able to
place like eye to eye face to face.
I actually heard someone talking of a
study that was done
on even like FaceTime,
like what we're doing, like I can see
your face, I can see your eyes.
But but if you take two people and like
and I think it was like 15 inches,
there was something
about inside 15 inches.
And the amount of like, I forget what
there's like dopamine.
And then there's there's another chemical
that's like you're
totally safe and secure.
I forget what it's called.
But he said that whenever you're 15
inches away from someone faced.
OK, like that.
The spike in that is just something.
And so there's there's never going to be
able to be like an artificial
reality to that,
because that's our humanity.
We're human and we're
made in the image of God.
And and so in some ways, like I'm not
afraid of all of this stuff yet.
I do know we need to
have self-discipline.
We can we can give up things.
But I don't think anything
can take it away from us.
Right. You can't take the image of God.
The fact that we're made in his likeness
and that we we are creators
and we are connoisseurs and
those type of things we're good.
And I do think we need
to grow those appetites.
I think they can be dumbed down.
Like I think the erosion of human
judgment has happened
through social media.
I mean, the amount of the amount of.
Like dumbness out there in some ways.
Yeah, it's true. Is
that an all time high?
So I think we do have
to be careful of that.
But I think it's just a
matter of making sure we, you know,
root ourselves in things like scripture,
root ourselves in things like community
and and root ourselves
in what we know is
beautiful and and good and right.
I think goodness, truth and beauty.
Those are three things that philosophers
would always come back to.
And I think that's the same now, that
goodness, truth and beauty
is a it's a divine thing.
It's something that God
infused into the world.
And so A.I. is made in our
image in the image of humanity.
And it can it can parrot
goodness, truth and beauty.
But it can't really create it or know it
in the way that we can.
And so I think we do have to keep
continue to do that.
I mean, that's where it's funny.
My kids is like, why they classical
music, even like classical
like old rock or something.
And it's like, no, because
that brain rot, you know,
joking about that or whatever.
But I do think it's important to to
continue to like try and mature
our our judgment, our palette for truth
and goodness and beauty.
And that's right. That's right.
Well, tell us a little bit
about your faith real quick.
I mean, we're going to we're going to
wrap up here not too long,
but I want to finish the first episode,
really getting a good introduction
because we have a lot more
stuff to do in these. Yeah. Yeah.
But but as far as that intersection of
work, we kind of got your work story.
And yeah, we got a little bit of the tech
kind of enhancement and interference.
But tell us, just give us a little bit
about your faith, your testimony,
how you came to faith and how it's both
enhanced and interfered
in your story and life.
Yeah, so much to say, I mean, I grew up
again, my mom
immigrated here from Lebanon.
And so we grew up in a
Greek Orthodox context.
And actually, I went to Greek school.
If anyone's ever watched
like my big fat Greek wedding,
like that was basically the
first 10, 12 years of my life.
And so, you know, really like appreciate
so much of the Orthodox faith
and so many things about it.
But I'd say I really came into a faith of
my own in high school.
I went to a Baptist high
school and just started kind of
you know, discovering
this idea of knowing Jesus
personally, having a relationship,
personal relationship with him.
And that kind of changed my life.
Not kind of it
absolutely changed my life.
And then obviously went on
to Pepperdine in college.
And so I think like a lot of again, the
foundation was set from my my mom
grew up in a prayerful
home and all of that.
But I sort of had to work it out on my
own kind of growing up
much like we all do.
And it was really interesting because
Silicon Valley, again,
my first experience of it and call it
2009, 2010 was such a dark place.
You could hopefully this isn't like a
controversial thing to say,
but it felt like you could be anything
you want and believe
anything you want in
Silicon Valley except a Christian,
because that came with
certain connotation, right?
Or certain judgments or whatever.
And so I felt like like many others, I
had to almost like keep my faith
to myself and not share it very well.
And so I started wrestling
with like a lot of Tim Keller,
like reason for God
type type of literature,
just because this felt like the center of
the world intellectually, at least.
And it felt like there was so much kind
of reason and science
and philosophy going into how their
worldview was being shaped.
And I I didn't, you know,
I yearned for that level of
depth of conversation around the faith
that we know and believe.
And so it was incredible.
And I think I had a lot
of breakthrough there.
And it was really throughout my time then
really starting a gain site.
I started to just be a little bit more
public with my faith
and a little more public is not like a
major act of courage.
But I put like follower of Jesus on my
Twitter bio or
something along those lines.
Right. Nothing crazy.
My like whatever on the website, like
with wherever my bio was.
But what was interesting is like that
little like whatever that is,
like 25 characters or whatever sparked so
many conversations with people
who felt that same like degree of keeping
their faith to themselves
or feeling like they had to in order to
actually like make, you know,
build a career in in tech.
They felt the sense of relief like, oh,
gosh, like I'm I'm not the only one.
Like there's others.
And a lot of folks reach out, have
incredible conversations,
built a lot of amazing
relationships through it.
And so I do feel this.
Like what God was doing at the time was
really planting some seeds of this,
I don't know, desire to help disciple
other Christian entrepreneurs,
executives, whoever operators, folks
working in technology that, again,
might hear a podcast like this and and
wrestle with a lot of the same things
we're wrestling with.
And so one of the things I did and you've
been such a huge part of this for me
is actually applied to
seminary in this moment of like,
what am I doing with my life?
My midlife crisis was I now go to Fuller
and three, three, three courses in.
It's been amazing and beautiful.
And I'm I'm I'm doing it very part time,
but I'm finding such great gratitude.
I have a lot of gratitude for it as I'm
trying to edify myself
theologically for whatever it is God
wants to do with this.
I have no idea if it's
nothing but this podcast.
Hopefully it'd be enough. Right.
And so I would say that's kind of like
the long arc of the story.
But zooming in a little bit
to just that that intersection
where a lot of this stuff and my company
Audience Plus that did
work out came together.
And I think you know
this well, I had like
it's almost like when you start a
company, you're getting on like
the radar of spiritual
warfare, it feels like.
I don't know if that's true for everyone.
But I had just about everything bad
happened to me in my life
in that three year window.
Although exaggerating here, but
at 33, my heart went out of
rhythm and I developed a fib,
which is very much very common
arrhythmia, but not for
somebody in the early 30s.
Because of that
stress, I developed vitiligo.
And so my skin is literally changing
colors as a result of like
autoimmune kind of driven
from stress and anxiety.
My daughter, Sienna, had several
unexplained seizures,
which to some extent has
gotten better for anyone.
Parents of small
children who have seen seizures.
It's obviously like,
thank God she's okay.
But like visually, like that experience
of watching your child sees is like
one of the worst
things you can possibly see.
You know the story very
well, but we actually had a
my wife Brittany was pregnant with a
third child who we lost in a very like
hard way of
of hope and trying to figure out how to
protect Brittany's health while also
saving the child.
And you know, at the end of the story, we
did lose the child,
unfortunately, but we kept
them kept Brittany like she survived.
Today is doing doing good.
So like, that's just like a handful of
things coming to mind that all happened
all in that same season.
And I had to go to work that next day,
right or whatever it was, and try to like
partition that off.
And so part of the end result is I've now
that anxiety sort of
I said, I grew up with
lifelong kind of from maybe my family of
origin and all of that has really kicked
into a new gear.
And it's really around this idea of like,
loss of control, and
health stuff like sounds
silly, but like flying I fly all the
time, but I hate it
because I'm terrified.
And so it is this big theological faith
kind of moment that
I'm in right now of like,
how do I wrestle with surrender in a
season of industry and
life and culture, but even
in my own personal context, where I'm
waking up to the idea I have no control.
And all of us right that
that's the human story.
And so a big part of my faith journey
today and some buzzy to
say that or whatever is
sort of trying to mature in my faith to
give up more willfully give
up control to God offer it
to him, which often feels like swimming
against the current of my
neural pathways and nervous
system and these types of things.
And so that that's my struggle.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's it's yeah, I mean, I remember
when you called me and you
said, hey, the doctor said,
I've got to decide
between the baby and my wife.
And and it ended up being to where the
decision was was made for you.
Yeah.
In some sort of, you know, in some sort
of transcendent like grace.
Yeah.
But still all the heart heartbreak.
And I remember we just kept praying,
Lord, we just we just put
this baby in your hands.
Like, that's all we
that's all we know to do.
And yeah, and I think that whole idea of
OK, I can't figure this one out.
You know, I can't I can't, you know, flex
hard enough to make this work.
And, you know, we get
hit by those things.
And yeah, it's funny because when Jesus
said if you're heavy and
like, like loaded with a heavy
burden, if you're if you're tired from
working so hard, come to
me and I will give you rest.
And it's like, yeah, we want solutions.
We want.
Yeah.
And he says, no, I'm
just going to give you rest.
And when you were talking about that,
like willfully trying to
surrender and say like,
because you have to like that at the end
of the day, you're going to surrender.
Like, there's nothing we can do.
You know, I mean, at least
at least death takes us all.
Right.
So the final the final reality of
humanity is surrendering.
Like, yeah, it's giving up.
But how do we willfully surrender before
that we're forced to and
find the peace that's there?
And I was just thinking about this river
and in some ways,
like we're in this river
and you were talking about swimming
against the current in
some ways, but in some ways,
like God's God's got a plan for our lives
and we're moving through these chapters.
And the book is already written.
He's the author and
perfecter of our faith.
And he knows what each chapter needs for
our faith to mature.
And he just continues to, you know, set
the stage in the
background and and move us through
these chapters.
And if we can trust
him, you know, yeah, yeah.
Then we continue to have
as much peace as possible.
And even if you trust the Lord, it's not
like everything's
easy, but there is a peace.
You put the paddles in the
boat and you let the river flow.
I was reading through this hymn the other
day and it was like a stanza.
And at the end of each
stanza, it said refrain.
And I just kept hearing the Lord say,
refrain, refrain, refrain.
Like, don't start paddling.
Don't try and paddle
yourself out of this season.
The river is flowing.
The season will change.
But if you start paddling, you're going
to wear yourself out.
You're going to get out of the season
before all the work is
done or or whatever, you know,
like it just just just refrain, refrain,
come to me and refrain.
And I will give you rest.
And the last thing I'll say just on that
season, just in case
somebody's in a season
that they're not enjoying, you're at that
intersection or that midlife
or you're starting in your career and you
can't seem to land a job
or make any sense of it or
whatever it might be.
Like, I just I just want to encourage you
to refrain and just and
just kind of like live
into this moment and rest and trust the
Lord that he knows how to
get you to the other side.
And when I was looking up at Jesus one
time in a prayer time, you
know, I couldn't see him,
but I was looking up just saying like,
Jesus, what do you see when
you look at me laying down
here? I mean, I've always been a very
active person, so I'm
literally just laying down
for the millionth hour of this year.
And I'm like, what do you
see and what do you say?
That's been like this prayer.
I prayed it for about a month before I
finally felt like I got
an answer from the Lord.
And what I felt like Jesus said was I see
you resting for the future.
And I was like, that is not
the way I see I'm wasting away.
I'm miserable and uncomfortable.
I'm unhappy.
I want to be doing those things.
Yeah, I was like, OK, but I trust your
perspective more that that
you have me in a season that
that it's a rest for the future because I
do have long term goals.
Like my kids never got a grandpa.
So I want to be a grandpa, you know.
Yeah.
And it sounds funny that that's like when
people say, what do you want to be when you grow up?
That's my whole thing right now.
I want to be a grandpa.
And I'm not trying to
put pressure on my kids.
But I do.
I just want to be a grandpa.
I want to be an old guy who's just, you
know, loving people, helping people.
And so I feel like the Lord's finally
helped me to come to
terms with saying, OK.
He's given me the rest and the
reconfiguration and the change in
alignment and the maybe the
gear ratio.
Maybe I need to spend less
time in fifth and fourth gear.
Fifth and fourth gear and figure out how
to do life in third gear.
Because because I've got
I've got a long journey ahead.
That's what I felt
like the Lord was saying.
So whatever season you're in, just look
at the Lord and say,
hey, what do you see?
What do you say?
And just keep asking until you get an
answer and then hold on
to that for the season.
And and the river is flowing, though, you
know, it is it is going.
You are moving even if
it doesn't feel like it.
You are headed where
you're supposed to go.
So there's a little encouragement for you
at the intersection if
you're stuck muddling
around like like we are to some extent.
OK, well, any final
thoughts before I wrap us up?
No, I was just thinking this
is going to be a lot of fun.
You know, I'm hopeful if folks are
listening and they again see themselves
in that intersection
alongside us that they let us know.
And again, that you would feel that
you're not alone, which
I think is like something
people could say, but like to really like
feel that and let it sink in, I think is
is important in this season of life.
And I'm just looking forward to
unpacking, like looking for
more wisdom along the path
in this wilderness or
whatever this is that that we're in.
And so I'm I'm just grateful
to be a small part of this.
It's cool.
Well, yeah, so I'm I'm excited if you do
have some wisdom to add or
some story to add or be like,
hey, I hear you, or if there was
something that stuck out
to you, we'd love to hear
and in some sort of message or email that
you can you can reach out to us.
That'd be great.
Add your story to this.
We're going to have other guests come in.
I know of some people that are basically
kind of at that intersection as well.
And I want to hear their story and what
they're doing to help
kind of be in the moment,
but also figure out how to move forward.
We're going to have you know, some people
even from Silicon Valley and stuff,
we're trying to get some of
them to come in and be on this.
And yeah, we're just trying to get a
collection of stories that will hopefully
get us some wisdom as we go through.
But thank you so much
for the time, Anthony.
And and I'm excited about doing this.
So next week, we're
going to dive in again.
We'll have some new sermon
content that we can discuss.
We'll have we're going to
grab some stuff off of Twitter.
We'll get a little bit more of your story
and kind of how you're moving forward
to how you're thinking about
the future and what's next.
And hopefully we'll get
some wisdom along the way, too.
All right.
We're signing off.
God bless.
Thanks, everybody.