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Michelle Watson Canfield, PhD, LPC, is a national speaker, author, licensed professional counselor of 28 years, and founder of The Abba Project, a nine-month group forum for dads whose daughters are in their teens and 20’s. She writes guest articles regularly for journals and magazines (online and print), as well as her own bi-monthly Dad-
Daughter Friday Blog, and has been interviewed on numerous radio and television programs.
Her best-selling book, Dad, Here’s What I Really Need From You: A Guide for Connecting With Your
Daughter’s Heart, is followed by her most recent field guide for men, Let’s Talk: Conversation Starters for
Dads and Daughters (both available on Audible). She has also written contributing chapters in Fathers Say and How to Disciple Men. Dr. Michelle is host of the award-winning The Dad Whisperer Podcast, which is available on her website and Apple + Google Podcasts, and Spotify. She also co-chairs the Father-Daughter Initiative at the National Center for Fathering with her husband, Dr. Ken Canfield. They reside in Fayetteville, Arkansas near their tribe of 24, which includes five children, three son-in-law’s, two daughter-in-laws, and 16 grandkids.
Connect with Dr. Michelle Watson-Canfield:
Email: drmichellewatson@gmail.com
Office Phone: 503.244.6160
Cell Phone: 503.476.5551
Website: drmichellewatson.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/drmichellewatson
Instagram: michellejwatson and thedadwhispererpodcast
Twitter: @mwatsonphd
YouTube: @thedadwhisperer
Purchase John's Book:
Mephibosheth! The Search for Identity, Purpose, and Community
Daughter Friday Blog, and has been interviewed on numerous radio and television programs.
Her best-selling book, Dad, Here’s What I Really Need From You: A Guide for Connecting With Your
Daughter’s Heart, is followed by her most recent field guide for men, Let’s Talk: Conversation Starters for
Dads and Daughters (both available on Audible). She has also written contributing chapters in Fathers Say and How to Disciple Men. Dr. Michelle is host of the award-winning The Dad Whisperer Podcast, which is available on her website and Apple + Google Podcasts, and Spotify. She also co-chairs the Father-Daughter Initiative at the National Center for Fathering with her husband, Dr. Ken Canfield. They reside in Fayetteville, Arkansas near their tribe of 24, which includes five children, three son-in-law’s, two daughter-in-laws, and 16 grandkids.
Connect with Dr. Michelle Watson-Canfield:
Email: drmichellewatson@gmail.com
Office Phone: 503.244.6160
Cell Phone: 503.476.5551
Website: drmichellewatson.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/drmichellewatson
Instagram: michellejwatson and thedadwhispererpodcast
Twitter: @mwatsonphd
YouTube: @thedadwhisperer
Purchase John's Book:
Mephibosheth! The Search for Identity, Purpose, and Community
Purchase the You Can Mentor book:
You Can Mentor: How to Impact Your Community, Fulfill the Great Commission, and Break Generational Curses
youcanmentor.com
Creators and Guests
What is You Can Mentor: A Christian Youth Mentoring Podcast?
You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community. We want to see Christian mentors thrive.
We want to hear from you! Send any mentoring questions to hello@youcanmentor.com, and we'll answer them on our podcast. We want to help you become the best possible mentor you can be. Also, if you are a mentoring organization, church, or non-profit, connect with us to join our mentoring network or to be spotlighted on our show.
Please find out more at www.youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You will find more resources on our website to help equip and encourage mentors. We have downloadable resources, cohort opportunities, and an opportunity to build relationships with other Christian mentoring leaders.
You can mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community. Learn more at you can mentor.com or follow us on social media. You can mentor. Why hello there, mentor. We here at You Can Mentor hope to add as much value as we can to mentors and mentoring organizations through resources and relationships.
Speaker 1:We have a bunch of resources that we've created to support you, such as books, learning lab cohorts, conferences, and online downloadable resources. Our goal is for you to use these resources yourself or to share them with your volunteers. The best way to get access to all of these resources is to sign up for our once a week newsletter. To do that, head on over to our website, you can mentor.com, and give us your info. Thanks so much.
Speaker 1:And remember, you can mentor. Alright. Welcome to the You Can Mentor podcast. This is Zach Garza, your host. And today on our podcast, we have a very special guest.
Speaker 1:Her name is doctor Michelle Watson Canfield. Doctor Michelle, say hello.
Speaker 2:Hello. I can follow directions.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Doctor Michelle Watson Canfield is a national speaker, author, licensed professional counselor of 28 years, and a founder of the Abba project, a 9 month group forum for dads whose daughters are in their teens and twenties. She writes guest articles for journals and magazines, as well as her own bimonthly dad daughter Friday blog and has been interviewed on numerous radio and television programs. She has some books. It's called Dad, Here's What I Really Need from You, A Guide for Connecting with Your Daughter's Heart, as well as Let's Talk Conversation Starters for Dads and Daughters.
Speaker 1:She has also written contributing chapters in Father's Say and How to disciple men. Doctor. Michelle also has her own podcast. It is called the dad whisper podcast, and it has won some awesome awards. You can find that podcast wherever you download podcasts.
Speaker 1:She also co chairs the father daughter initiative at the national center for fathering with her husband, doctor Ken Canfield. They reside in Fayetteville, Arkansas near their tribe of 24, which includes 5 children, 3 son in laws, 2 daughter in laws, and 16 grandkids. Doctor Michelle, how are you today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great, Zach. Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Thanks so much for being on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Love that we connected through our mutual friend, Sean Theiss. I love him. I call him my little brother. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So he's yeah. Great friend. Love he and Jackie so much.
Speaker 1:He is he is awesome. I I actually haven't had Sean on our podcast yet, but I hope too soon.
Speaker 2:So Oh, awesome.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, doctor Michelle, why don't you tell us a tidbit about yourself and what you're passionate about?
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. There's a loaded question. You know, I always say there's so many different versions, right, of our story that we can tell. And so you and I are asking Holy Spirit today to lead our conversation so that those listening will be encouraged and maybe even challenged. I love my lane of of challenging men, dads of daughters, And even my last counseling session yesterday with a couple, I asked him at the end, okay.
Speaker 2:How's everything sitting with you today? And the wife goes, oh, I feel so much better. And I looked at the husband and said, how about you? Here are his exact words. I'm ready to take action.
Speaker 2:I was like, yes. Like, that is my ultimate desire is that that we will all be motivated to take action, right, and not just sit, listen. So that's my goal, and I know it's yours as well, Zach. So, anyway, a little bit about me. Oldest of 4 girls, born in California, moved to Portland, Oregon when I was 10 for my dad to go to seminary, and, you know, more kids came.
Speaker 2:Like I said, I'm the oldest of 4 girls, and my youngest sister is 14 years younger. You know? So when I'm pushing her in the stroller when I'm 16, people think she's mine. And so I really was kind of like a a little mini mom, even in my teen years, and went to bible college after that. And then my life kind of started, I would say, quote, unquote, falling apart on the inside in my twenties, and, you know, wasn't sure what kind of guy I wanted, and at 28 to 30, I dated a guy who was very emotionally, mentally, and and spiritually abusive to me.
Speaker 2:And, one time we broke up, for example, and I wrote down 66 things he didn't like about me, that he had told me he didn't like. Now mind you, meanwhile, I'm a Bible college graduate. I'm a pastor's daughter. I'm in ministry. I'm mentoring teenagers, you know, in the church.
Speaker 2:I'm on worship teams leading worship and and doing things that were in line with my walk with Jesus. But on the inside, it was a whole different world. And I think that's really what I want a key message to come out of our conversation today is that if you're in a season where you're doing a lot for God, you're doing a lot for people, and you can tell you're getting triggered a lot inside, you're making poor choices with maybe numbing out distress with alcohol or food or busyness or ministry or sex or whatever, shopping, whatever it is, take a time out. Deal with your stuff because you'll be a better and healthier mentor. If you do, you'll be a better and healthier parent and woman or man.
Speaker 2:And so that's what happened to me is is, you know, I was working a day job, but I had to call a counselor to say, suck. I'm not coping real well. I'm dating this abuser because after we broke up, I got back together with that guy who was so verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, mentally abusive, spiritually abusive, and we were in ministry together, youth ministry, and we were in a Christian band together. You know, it was like all for God, but behind closed doors it was a different story, and so that's what led me to call a counselor. And you know what, Zach?
Speaker 2:This woman would ask me over and over over the course of 8 years. It was like an onion. You know, the layers were getting a little bit more gnarly farther inside the deeper we went, and she would always say, where's Jesus in that memory? Where's Jesus in what's coming up today? And I truly believed I loved Jesus with all all that I was, all that I am still, and yet I I like, I don't nobody ever taught me how to look for Jesus.
Speaker 2:I don't even know. I could tell you a verse. I love scripture. I went to Bible College. I love ministry, but where's Jesus right now?
Speaker 2:I don't even know. And so, well, short, as she began to teach me how to invite Jesus into my trauma, into my brokenness, into my questions, into my experiences, it literally began to rework my inner world. I began to change from the inside out. Even though I was already a believer from the time I was 6, Jesus really came, I would say, came real to me from my head to my heart. And so at the end of that season, I was working as a dental assistant.
Speaker 2:I would say, mental, dental. Give me the head. That's that's my comfort area. And, you know, then now, you know, into my thirties, I was doing a lot of that work. My healing journey kinda wiped out my thirties, to be honest with you.
Speaker 2:I was still single. So then I hit my forties, but I was still serving Jesus all through that, like, as best I could. I was still on a worship team. Even if I was crying my eyes out, you know, through a lot of the songs because they were ministering to me, I was keeping it real. I've always loved that and value that.
Speaker 2:And so then, you know, then my forties happened, end of my thirties, I go back to grad school. I'm like, I have to help people. I have to help people and get close to their wounds and teach them how to take them to Jesus and how to have his truth to spell lies that were embedded in wounds long before now that lead to poor choices and belief systems that are super duper tied to the enemy. And so, anyway, then I started my private practice then in my late thirties. I guess I I said it a little bit wrong.
Speaker 2:I started grad school at 35, finished at 38, opened a private practice, and so now I'm 28 years into that and then in my, 49. So really in my fifties, I had a assignment from God out of Luke 117 where God told Zechariah that his yet to be born son, John, would help turn what to their fathers? Do you remember?
Speaker 1:The hearts.
Speaker 2:Bingo. Not the heads. Isn't that interesting? And what what I've discovered in my, you know, my passion for equipping dads to dial into their daughters' hearts is men's are like men are like, I'm so good with my head. Like, I'll help you fill out a FAFSA.
Speaker 2:We're gonna do a college application. We're gonna figure out the specs on that car. And men, we as daughters love and need that. But God said it's your heart that has to turn, and so I love helping men, fathers, develop heart skills to be a better dialed in dad, not only to their daughters, but even to their sons. For those that pursue relationships with women currently, like they're dating or they were married or are married, every woman's a daughter, so these skills translate to every relationship men have, and that's what they tell me.
Speaker 2:So it was in January of 2010 then, I started a group for dads called the Abba project. Abba meaning daddy Naramek and men love a project, hence the name. And what it's just the joy of my life is, you know, still doing private practice, still doing ministry, still was leading worship in a big church in Portland, and yet watching these men, 12 a year for 10 years, sitting in Portland, sitting side by side where, Zach, I would have one guy who, you know, I was in Nike Town, I was in Intel, you know, headquarters, Columbia Sportswear, that was all my neighborhood, and so I have guys from all of those places and and elsewhere sitting side by side each other. So I'd have, like, a guy who's an atheist who works in a paint store, sitting next to a guy that heard me on focus on the family, who has a transgender daughter that won't talk to him, but he's super duper proper, I guess might be a way to say it, like, very controlled and regulated, and this was blowing him out of the water, sitting next to another guy who's from another country, not a Jesus follower that's like, hey, man.
Speaker 2:I'll pay for a ticket. Let's go to Boston and show up to your daughter's doorstep. Let's do it, man. We gotta and it's these guys champion each other from such different walks of life, and by the end, there's a bond that happens every year. And so I'm telling you, that's where the books came out of, that's where radio came out of and podcasting.
Speaker 2:And so at the end of all of that, a guy who wrote the foreword to my first book asked me to marry him. We never dated, held hands, anything. He was a widower, had been married 43 years, Ken Canfield, and we'd been colleagues for a decade. I knew his wife, and god told me to marry him 4 months before he called, and I hardly told anyone. I just said, God, if this is of you, wake Joseph up, tell him to come take Mary home as his wife, because what's conceived of me is of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:Zach, that's what he did. He called me January 1st 20, and God had told him the same thing. So we got married on Father's Day weekend, of course, and then COVID hit. So we invited 425, but only 25 ended up being able to come. COVID shut it down.
Speaker 2:Lots of tears shed over that, and so now we moved to be closer to our tribe here that's continually growing, and that's kind of it in a nutshell. That was a lot of words. Thanks, man, for hanging in there. I probably really filled up your quote of words for the day just with that intro.
Speaker 1:No. Doctor Michelle, you're there is there is so much in there for us to talk about. Anne, I must say, you are pretty funny. So congratulations. So why don't we why don't we start talking about the heart of a mentor?
Speaker 1:So I think one of the things that I heard you say was inviting Jesus into your heart. And we all know, as mentors, that that you can't give what you don't have. And so often as a mentor, you are the reflection of Jesus Christ to your mentee. You might be the only person that they know who has a relationship with Christ. And so how how do you access how do you how do you take care of your heart as a mentor?
Speaker 1:Just
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that question. I don't think we hear enough about what that means. At least I don't in a lot of sermons or I didn't in bible college. Do you? How do you really tend your inner world to your heart?
Speaker 2:Right? So that is such a powerful question. I mean, anything you wanna say about that? Do you hear that addressed a lot in your circles? I think we are more than we used to 10, 20, 30 years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, there is there is that verse in Psalms that always kinda gets me I think it's King David, search search my heart, oh lord, and see if there's any anxious thoughts within me. Yeah. And and just I think that that process of searching your heart, like, the heart is more than just an organ, but it is it is this complex, like, just put together. I kinda sense that to search your heart requires going on a specific kinda journey.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. So And it does and it does mean it's a journey where you'll have to get quieter. It's a journey where you have to slow down. It's a journey where you have to listen to the Spirit of God. In fact, I Ken and I do the chronological Bible every year.
Speaker 2:He's been doing it I I mean, I've loved the word since I was a little girl and regularly in it, but I haven't done that method, the chronological Bible, which, I mean, Ken is so passionate about getting he buys them in cases and gives them out and sends them to people across the country. Like, it's a it's a built in way to read scripture where you don't have to come up with the road map because it's every day, it's already laid out for you, and then it'll sync all the stories together. So you might like just today, I'm reading in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all in the same day because it's the same stories of Jesus. But one of the things I've really taken from my reading in the past, like, through the summer into now is how often even in the Old Testament, God will say, listen, oh Israel. Listen.
Speaker 2:Listen. Then Jesus shows up. He keeps saying, listen. I keep underlining it because it says he's a god who speaks. And I found that when I was even in Bible college, no one told me how to know how to hear God's voice.
Speaker 2:So back to this question about how do you attend to your heart, one of the best ways, like we're saying, slow down, but how do you listen? Like, somebody I've had people sit there and go, okay. Like, I sat there for, like, a half an hour, and no thoughts came. Like, total waste of time trying to do my inner world thing, and nobody told me what that even sounds like, looks like, feels like. What does it mean to listen to god's voice?
Speaker 2:Here's what I love to say. I have a threefold, I would say, some synopsis of what I've come to understand about god's voice. It comes fast. It's not what I was just thinking, and it lines up with the word of God. So it comes fast.
Speaker 2:It's not what I was just thinking, and it lines up with the word of God. So we all know that Jesus said, if you if Jesus says, if you ask your father for bread, he's not gonna give you a stone. You know, if you ask for fish, he's not gonna give you a snake. Meaning, when you ask god for something, James says he gives it generously. He gives us wisdom.
Speaker 2:So if you're learning how to hear the voice of god in solitude, quieter, slower pace, and rhythm, and you're sitting there going say that you ask god, what do you want from me today? I'm just listening. What do you want me to do today? And you you have a thought come in that you might dismiss, that might be look into people's eyes. Just look around, and you think, that's stupid.
Speaker 2:Like, that that's just my thought. That's what I have a lot of people say. That was my thought. And I'll say, did it come fast? Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was, like, right there. Was it what you would have thought you would have thought? It'd be like, no. I would have thought it would have been more of a do or go give or go serve or not just look and notice. Look in people's eyes.
Speaker 2:Ah, and does it line up with the word of God? Or another way to say that is not contrary to the word of God. You know? So learning how to hear God's voice, what I find is he gets louder the more you get used to hearing him. You know?
Speaker 2:So, like, you know, Zach, if you call your wife or your kids and all he says, hey, and they don't even have caller ID, let's say, they didn't even look. They're, like, one hey, and they're, like, hi, dad. Hi, hon. You know, like, they know you so well. One word, they got you.
Speaker 2:So the more we get used to hearing God's voice, one word, I got you. Like, like, this might sound like a a silly example of that, but a couple nights ago, I was out at dinner. One of my favorite things is to listen when god tells me to nudge, to give a really good tip to a server in cash over and above. Oh my gosh. Just happened to a guy at a restaurant, and I said, Jesus told me you needed this.
Speaker 2:Is that right? That's all Jesus I heard a nudge. I felt it. Actually, to be honest with you, it wasn't a voice. But right, it's a nudge, like an arm elbow thing.
Speaker 2:So my heart responded because of the nudge that God gave me. I go up, Jesus I try to put Jesus' name. Jesus said you needed this. Is that true? He's like, Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:I live with my mom and I've been wanting to, you know, not, like, gonna buy of anything big, but it was just I wanted him to get the message that god sees him and knows he has a need, and he'll never know my name and he'll never remember me. I want him to remember the person who really met that need and met him in that restaurant. And then I said, which I don't usually say, but I gotta download. See, it came fast. It's not what I was just thinking.
Speaker 2:I don't usually ask this, but I said, how can I pray for you? He said, I've been thinking about wanting to go into real estate, but I haven't really known how to do it. And I said, so if you think about this idea of mentoring, was I mentoring that server? All we are is leading a conversation that speaks life and truth into the person we're interacting with. Right?
Speaker 2:Isn't that mentoring in a nutshell 101? So here I am saying to him, oh, wow. Real estate. You know what? You have a gift in attending to people.
Speaker 2:I've experienced that today. And I think there's some real estate agents that are trying to work an angle, It's not authentic, but that isn't you. We need more people like you in that field. It's like, oh, man, are you kidding me? We're hugging it out, you know.
Speaker 2:And so that brought me joy because my heart was responding to a felt need right in front of me with someone I didn't know. And, I mean, what do you think? Does that sound like a practical way to speak to those listening about how to lead conversations guided by Jesus and by God's spirit?
Speaker 1:Yes. 100%. And I think everything that you just said, we can use in our conversations with our mentees. And what an amazing opportunity we have to, whenever we're talking to them, to not not only share what the lord is trying to convey to them, but also just to encourage them. Because it's so important to to encourage your mentee because life is hard.
Speaker 1:And I don't know about you, but I need as much courage as I can possible possibly get to do the next thing that God is asking me to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and courage isn't the absence of fear. Courage is doing something with fear, but saying fear getting the caboose, you know, like, we're we're gonna do this. And I love how you just said, we all are going through hard stuff. I mean, I'm going through stuff now that's hard.
Speaker 2:It wasn't like Saturday night, all of a sudden, I had a burst of energy. But it's fun when stuff's hard to be able to be used to bring someone else joy because it kinda offsets the intensity, not always, but it can. And one of the things that I have loved doing is when I am a mentor, and a lot of those conversations have been at restaurants for whatever reason. Right? We meet at a restaurant, and I think of this gal who was leading worship at our church in Oregon, and she started at 19, but had a real anointing on her.
Speaker 2:And this was a church of 5,000, so it was a pretty big assignment and mantle, but the condition was that she met with me. So divorce in her family, really, really abusive stuff in her family as they were divided and pitted this little girl against other parents. A lot of kids get caught in that tug of war and crossfire. And so I think it was for about 4 years. Most often every other week, maybe every 3 weeks, we'd meet.
Speaker 2:After church, we'd go to different restaurants and sit there for usually 2, 3, 4 hours. I mean, long time. Lots of tears. But you know what she would tell you to this day? She was actually one of the bridesmaids in my wedding, is she would go, Michelle, I watched what you did with servers.
Speaker 2:You've done this thing where in front of me, so I was there with you, which we know. Right? In Mark, it says, the disciples, Jesus invited them to come with him. It was a with relationship, which is that holy manual, God with us. Like, God doesn't say go do it.
Speaker 2:He's like, I'm gonna go with you. I'm gonna give you the Holy Spirit. So when we step out of our comfort zone and they're with us, that's what they remember later. It's like you, did it even though you didn't know what you were gonna say, and you just opened your mouth, and God gave you words for that server, or you did that scary the next scary thing or the next hard thing, and you just take them with you. So it's that's what I love is that life on life in the middle of the trenches.
Speaker 2:There were times then where I was crying to her about stuff going on with me. So it wasn't just like, I am here to pour into you, and I even tell my counseling clients that. I say, yes. I'm leading. Understand that.
Speaker 2:But the mighty counselor is leading me, so I'm also being led. He's the mighty c, capital c, mighty counselor. I'm the little c. And so I tend to be very authentic even with my counseling clients, which is, I think, pretty counterintuitive to what my field talks about. It's where it's more about, you know, not having a lot of self disclosure, they call it.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, this is so bizarre. Whoever says to another human being, what I hear you saying is I mean, that's absolutely insane. Like, you feel like someone is analyzing you and not all of a sudden they became nonhuman. You know? What I hear you saying is that you're struggling with your father.
Speaker 2:No. It's like, hey. You know what? I'll I'll share with them. Here's what God gave me today out of the word.
Speaker 2:Hey. Here's what I'm getting right now for you, a question to ask. Have you explored this or looked at that? So I think in essence, what you and I both believe, Zach, is that it's just really about being authentic, and anybody with trauma, myself included. I have dissociation.
Speaker 2:I have complex PTSD. I have sexual abuse in my history. I've got tons of crap on both sides of my family that would turn your hair green. I'm talking abuse upon abuse. Some of it even in the realm of evil, like calculated intentional evil, and then you have other times where it's like, oops.
Speaker 2:This is kind of, you know, I my foot slipped off the brake of my life car, you know, and I ran into you. Oops. And then there's other times where it was, like, pedal to the metal. I ran into you intentionally, and I've got stuff on both sides. So even though I'm not going into that today, people, you gotta hear me.
Speaker 2:Like, I am not someone who has mentored because I just had it easy all the time. I mean, I was the emotional kid. You talk about heart. I've always been a big feeler, a big crier, a big get angrier. That's not really a word.
Speaker 2:I'm making it one. But I'm the big big emotional girl. That's me. I give people a workout, ask my husband. God give me a very steady man.
Speaker 2:And yet, we all are wired how God wired us, and I'm all about inviting Jesus into that moment, and And I'm telling you, even as recent as last night, my husband and I had an awesome couple hour talk, and I love listening to Jesus while I talk. And I'm like, wait. Just a minute. Let me hold on for a sec. Jesus and we out loud, we both said, Jesus, what do you wanna say about this?
Speaker 2:So one of the things that I wanna speak from my heart, see we're having a heart theme, to those that are listening who are mentors to your heart is the best gift you can give those you're leading is to teach them how to listen to Jesus. If it's always through you, hey, Jesus just told me you could really use this. I love teaching them how to listen and how to I'm, like, let's ask him right now. I do this with my counseling clients all the time. And if I have ones that aren't believers, you know what I substitute the word Jesus with?
Speaker 2:Truth. I know I mean capital t truth, way, truth, and life, but most people are, like, yeah, I want truth. They might be thinking capital I mean, small t truth, but I know I'm I'm speaking to the author of truth, Jesus. But I'll say, can we ask truth right now? What truth would say?
Speaker 2:Just listen. What do you get? And if they if they wait too long, I know it's it's them contemplating and thinking of an answer, so it's usually gonna come quick, less than a minute. Absolutely. I'd say a minute's even long.
Speaker 2:And, usually, it seems like an idea you would push aside, like, that's just me. And I usually say, just say it. What do you get? What did you hear? And then sometimes we're confirming that bears witness with my spirit.
Speaker 2:Because if they can learn to hear the voice of Jesus and follow his voice, Jesus will introduce him, us to his father, and Jesus will introduce us to Holy Spirit. And Holy Spirit will introduce us to Jesus, and the Holy Spirit will introduce us to the father, and the father makes Jesus know, like, they're 3 in 1. One of my favorite things I ever heard from a group of friends in Portland that do this whole open table conference that I've been a part of is they say, we're never less than 4. You got father, son, spirit. They never do anything apart from each other, and we're in the middle of that relationship.
Speaker 2:So when we feel like life is too hard and we're alone, we're fighting it alone. Right? That's a coping mechanism. I don't need anyone. I don't trust anyone.
Speaker 2:It's knowing we're not alone is huge. Right? Isn't that the heart of a mentor? I want your you to know you're not alone. I'm with you.
Speaker 2:But then to lead them to a greater truth than than what we can even give is, but you're never alone because you're never less than 4. That's the lowest common denominator you can ever be because you're in the middle of a triune god relationship that has your back. They're your front and rear guard. They hem you in behind it before. You are never alone and I'm here to cheer that on, but at the end of the day, especially in my clinical work, I wanna work myself out of a job.
Speaker 2:I want that little bird to fly out of the nest knowing he or she can fly because their wings are are developed those muscles to fly because they've learned things that have been internalized, and listening to Jesus is one of the top ones that I love to
Speaker 1:teach. So as a mentor, how how do you prepare your own heart to enter into a relationship, to enter into a conversation with your mentee where you're able to slow down. You're able to hear the Holy Spirit. You're able to not just take control and not just do whatever you feel like is best, but to really surrender the relationship and the conversation and the time that you're spending with your mentee, how do you surrender that to Jesus?
Speaker 2:Okay. So I'm gonna respond first by talking about something that even precedes saying yes to a mentee relationship because I, you know, I'm 63 now, so I've I've been in a lot of relationships and ministry for a long time, probably four and a half decades. And so what I've seen is that a lot of people are really good at saying yes, but they're not very good at saying no. And one time I went through the book of Luke and counted how many times Jesus said no to the request that he was asked how many times he said yes, And I found that there were 13 noes and 7 yeses, almost 2 to 1. And we wear WWJD bracelets, like, what would Jesus do?
Speaker 2:But I'm like, I think if we say yes to every request, every person that asks us to mentor them, we're not following the way of Jesus and the example of Jesus. So I have had many people ask me to be their mentor, and I say no most of the time. So I would say even proceeding, how do you surrender? If you overfill your life and you're so busy you can't catch your breath and attend to your own spiritual walk, your own internal world of needing rhythms of rest, rhythms of refueling, rhythms of play, rhythms of having, you know, fun in play, you're gonna overgive and you're not gonna be at your best. So I would say that's a really important foundation is don't take on too many mentees because you aren't gonna be able to give that much to that many people well.
Speaker 2:So I would say that's a starting point. But now when you're sitting there with your mentor saying, how do I prepare? I make sure that I'm not overgiving, and what I mean by that is if I and this I've learned somewhat the hard way. So you're probably catching me in a season where as I'm aging, I'm looking back going, man, I wish I would've known this or done this better. Is that sometimes I would think, what do they need and how how much of that need can I fill?
Speaker 2:So it might be for companionship or support to go do something scary like an interview or, you know, or something in sports. I'll be in the stands cheering you on. But I didn't always ask myself, do I really have a bandwidth or a margin for this? Because if Jesus said no, I can say no and say, how could I support you in a different way? You know, could I give you a token that you could put in your pocket to know that I'm with you in spirit?
Speaker 2:Could I write a a message on a piece of paper that you could hold on to? Could I send you a voice memo or a video where I'm praying over you and sharing that that you can play right before you go into that event? Like, is there an option I could take advantage of where I don't have to sacrifice? Maybe that was gonna be my Friday night fun night, you know, to rest, play, refuel. You know, for me, especially when I was single, I would I would paint sometimes.
Speaker 2:I would go out with friends where it wasn't a mentor relationship. It was just having fun with with people that knew me, and I didn't have to, you know, think about maybe filter what I would say. It was just going with whatever because we had history. And so having that balance to really attend to those kind of rhythms, I think, is important. I think another thing is that it might mean limiting how much time.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I told you with this gal that I mentored, Sunday afternoons often were for her, but not every week. There might be times I would only have 2 hours today or 1 hour, but then there were times I'd go 4 because God's spirit was moving and I had the time. So the need was always greater than what I could give. I mean, would you say you found that, Zach, like most mentees would take as much as you'll give?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. For sure. 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because the needs are great.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And yet I think maybe unconsciously, Zach, sometimes we can move into thinking we're their need meter and not that God is their need meter.
Speaker 1:Oh, that that hits. That hits, doctor Michelle. That hits.
Speaker 2:And it's unconscious. Like, I don't think we even sometimes know, but it's like, I I okay. I can give a little more. I can squeeze that. You know?
Speaker 2:I can squeeze that orange a little more to get a little juice out, and there are times for that. But if that's become the norm, it'll be out of balance, and it's not healthy for them to always run to you. In fact, one of my mentoring relationships turned into a relationship that's still here now about, what, 13 years later, that her mom died when she was in 8th grade. Her dad died when she was a senior in high school. No parents, no grandparents, no siblings.
Speaker 2:Like so in her twenties, I was her mentor, and one time I had said to her if I could ever have a daughter, I would want her to be you. You know what she said? I've always thought if I could ever have a mom, I would want her to be you. We hugged it out, cried it out, and decided we were gonna basically adopt each other. And I began to spend more intentional time with her, most of the time at at restaurants.
Speaker 2:She ended up at this one place we loved going where god met us every time just by conversation and dreaming and planning and processing relationships and challenges and fears and times I'd be on the phone with her, times I'd be on the phone with her crying, you know, and all the things. But she got it down, though, that she was gonna work with Rwandan refugees who were resettled in Portland and created a Bible study because she said nobody's getting them into the word. They're helping with education. She was a part of a nonprofit, but she said nobody's attending to their spiritual life. So with our time together, she created a curriculum that god gave her, who, what, when, where, why, how, questions out of the word.
Speaker 2:So she began to mentor young Rwandan men. I'm mentoring men who are older with daughters. How crazy is that? So we developed this mom daughter relationship in the trenches. I got to be mother of the bride at her wedding at Timberline Lodge on Mount Hood to a Rwandan man.
Speaker 2:She's now carrying her 2nd baby. She still calls me mama. Her husband calls me Babukwe, which is mama in Rwanda Kenya Rwanda. And that relationship started because she didn't have a mama. But guess what happened?
Speaker 2:I started taking on more about maybe this about this is about maybe 6, 7 years ago, probably 6, where I was doing radio every other week, recording things, you know, leading the opera project with men, my daily counseling practice 4 days a week, and more and more was being added and then some speaking things here and there, and I didn't have the time for her the same as I had for many years. And one day we went out and she's like, I don't know. Like, it just feels like you don't really want time with me anymore. Like and that hurt happens, right, as there's been attachment repair that happens with broken people as we mentor them, but even Jesus said I have to go away, but I'm gonna send you the Holy Spirit. And so, you know, again, really hard but important deep conversation, I said, Honey, it is not personal.
Speaker 2:I love you the same as I always have, but I don't have enough of me to go around. And and we talked it out. And she she was so relieved because I think she maybe thought it was personal, and I hadn't even thought to bring that up to her. So maybe that's even a practical mentee mentor question to visit periodically is, how are we doing? Is there is there any things that maybe feel like I'm hurting you unintentionally?
Speaker 2:Of course. But anything we need to talk about, anything that might be hard to bring up about how we're relating to each other. Is it too much? Is it too little? Have I unintentionally hurt you?
Speaker 2:We need to process what forgiveness looks like, but you can lead that conversation because they may be too afraid to bring it up. But you wanna hear the coolest thing is now she had clarity. We were spending less time together. I said, we're still quality. We're not gonna have as much quantity, and we are locked and loaded as we always have been.
Speaker 2:And it was 6 months later that her husband drove across country because he felt God wanted him to marry her, and I was able to say to him, because that first night we all met, the 3 of us, she said, I can't say yes to any dating relationship until my mom has met you because she'll know in her spirit if you're good. And I looked at and finally at the end of that, I said, I give my blessing, and I said, you know what? I see now, and this wasn't arrogant, but I said, God prepared her for you through me. She learned to attach to me. She didn't know that before.
Speaker 2:She didn't know how to have a lot of communication. She didn't know how to trust Dee because she'd been betrayed by her father in some significant ways, not sexually, but some some really unhealthy choices dad made that affected her greatly, so trust was really hard. And I said, and I'm handing her off to you, so to speak. Like and that brought me so much joy. They have a vibrant, healthy marriage, and I only was part of that.
Speaker 2:And so the things we're talking about today, I I have lived out. You know, there are things that that are not always easy. Right? When you're mentoring someone and you're there for a season and now you sense God shifting it or someone else comes in to take the next leg of the journey, and maybe you feel displaced or unappreciated. And that leads me to the other piece that I really wanna talk about today.
Speaker 2:Are we going too long? Are we still okay?
Speaker 1:We're all good.
Speaker 2:Okay. Which really combines some of the questions you were asking about how do you surrender? How do you prepare yourself to lead others? And that has to do with really attending to your triggers. I love using the analogy of if you're driving down the the road and a red light comes on your dashboard, that's kind of a really a symbol or a metaphor for a trigger.
Speaker 2:When something smarts, like, you're like, that was a big 8, 9, or 10 reaction on a 0 to 10. I turned that molehill into a mountain really fast. Wow. That's your signal. That's the dashboard light that something is going on in your internal world that needs your attention.
Speaker 2:Now, we can get a hammer out if the car light comes on and bash the light, can't we? I don't like lights to come on my dashboard. I'm gonna just kill the thing. Or we could say, I'm a unplug the wires because I don't like wires telling me something's wrong. But what does wisdom say?
Speaker 2:What would you say, Zach? What does wisdom tell you to do if the light comes on?
Speaker 1:Gotta pop up that hood, and you gotta see what's going on.
Speaker 2:Come on. And you gotta slow down, and you gotta stop.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You definitely can't definitely can't work on a car whenever it's going down the road.
Speaker 2:Come on. But where are we being taught that even if you're in the middle of a mentee relationship, mentor mentee, and you're like, man, I am totally overreactive at work. I'm on the road. There's road rage. Like, I'm noticing kind of stuff's amping up more consistently.
Speaker 2:I don't know what's going on. I would say, ask someone else for help. Meet with an older person in your life to go, I don't know what's getting triggered in me, but something's going on. I've gotta slow down, stop, lift the hood up, look at the wires. Are they unplugged?
Speaker 2:Are they corroded? Because something is getting activated, and I think you give your mentee a gift to model. Members more is caught than taught. I'm sure you say that all the time. How do you say, you know what?
Speaker 2:I've been reacting with 8, 9 I would say if it's a if it's an 0 to 10 scale and you hit an 8, 9, or 10 more often than not, that's your own stuff. You could say, well, my kids left their stuff in the hallway, and I tripped over. How could I they're not learning responsibility. No. If you hit an 8, 9, or 10, that's your stuff.
Speaker 2:That's some control issues. It's maybe you feel unheard, devalued, not supported by your spouse, whatever, but there's something else. I would say the thing you think is the thing isn't the thing. So how do you attend? Chirrata World.
Speaker 2:Say that after me, everybody listening. The thing you think is the thing isn't the thing. So when you're hitting big numbers, you wanna look at the patterns. What is it about those things? Take time to journal that out right out.
Speaker 2:K. Here's all the situations where that happened. What's the common theme? What what am I seeing as a common denominator? Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Actually, that was at work before I got home. My boss came in at 5 minutes to 5 and gave me this huge project. I had to stay late, gave me no respect, did not think about my world. Oh my gosh. When did that happen before?
Speaker 2:As a kid, my dad would come in. I was having plans. He would tell me that I had to go clean up my sister's mess. Never thought about what I'd already prepared. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:This is a theme. And then you say, Jesus, what's your truth for me? I'm noticing notice your body. What's happening in your body? My heart's racing.
Speaker 2:My voice is getting louder. I'm pitting out. I'm almost shaking. I'm so angry. Oh, childhood, my boss, I walked in and my kid paid for that.
Speaker 2:And then they got all those years of stuff, and it wasn't their fault. They're fine. They're learning where to put their shoes. It wasn't intentionally against me. Take a breath.
Speaker 2:Jesus, what is your truth for me? Guided by Father, Holy Spirit, and you listen. That's why I started with that today, and you listen. And you say, Jesus, what is your truth for me? He may say, I've got you.
Speaker 2:I know it may feel like I give you too much at times, of course correct at the last minute curveball, but I'm your front and rear guard. Okay, I'm good with that. Okay. You breathe into that truth, you come back to your little kid and you make amends. You know what?
Speaker 2:I just took out on you the stuff. See, that's modeling to your child. You're a mentor to your child showing I get it wrong too. And I listen to Jesus and I ask forgiveness. And if you're in a season where you're overreacting, I'd consider taking a time out.
Speaker 2:Go to a counselor, go to a pastor, go to a friend, say, You know what? Dear mentee, I love you, but I think I need I'm gonna take maybe 4 weeks off. I'm getting help. I'm asking someone to speak into my life. I'm learning to be honest, and I'm gonna come tell you what I learned.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna come tell you all the things God taught me. And you know what? Here's what I'd love you to do in 4 weeks. Notice what's coming up, big numbers. Notice what's happening in your body.
Speaker 2:Tie it together, what happened before that in your day that led to that big reaction that probably had nothing to do with that thing, because the thing you think is the thing isn't the thing. That was some other thing. Oh, now I understand myself better. Take that to Jesus. What's your truth for me?
Speaker 2:What do you what do you have for me? Because we all feel shame when we've overreacted and feel like a I say a zit on the butthole of humanity. But, really, at the end of the day, Jesus is like, your identity is in me, so he gives you a truth. You take that to your kids. I mean, my dad, you know, he grew up on the south side of Chicago, 3 different last names among the 7 kids.
Speaker 2:He he had no mentor of how to be a dad. In fact, he was a drunk the last time he was ever in their home is when his mom put an iron to his drunk face, like, never come here again. You know, my dad, no template of how to be a dad, and my dad did a lot of things right. He learned a lot the hard way by asking other dads after he became a believer. I was 6 years old.
Speaker 2:My dad then went to seminary, would ask other men to speak into his life. He was like, hey. We're gonna have family devotions 15 minutes earlier, everybody. We're like, what? Because somebody told him to do it, so he didn't have any template.
Speaker 2:He goes, okay. That's what we're doing. You know? And he did a lot of things different, but one of the things my dad never learned as a kid was how to own his stuff and ask forgiveness. And I think sometimes we say, I'm so sorry I overreacted.
Speaker 2:It's not enough. You have to say, number 2, tell me how I hurt you by that reaction. And then you say, 3, will you forgive me for the way I shamed you and made you believe that was your fault? It is not enough to go, hey. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:I blew it. I overreacted. Sorry. And off we walk, and the person that was hurt is still there. And I've had to ask forgiveness even with mentis sometimes.
Speaker 2:Like, in fact, I just had had someone confront me who was a counseling client and say, you really hurt me when you asked me a question. Now I can tell you with god as my witness, ethically, I needed to have asked that question. It's about suicide, but it hurt her feelings that I would have thought that would have even be a possibility. I'm a Jesus follower. I would never how but, ethically, I needed to follow through.
Speaker 2:So sometimes, we're the leader thinking that's not really legit, but it's not about us defending ourself. It's tell me how I hurt you when I asked that. Then I got all the hurt. Then I said, will you forgive me for that? In my field, a lot of therapists would never ask forgiveness, and I'm not saying that to exalt myself, but I'm saying I'm a mentor in this role, aren't I?
Speaker 2:What whether you're a parent, whether you're a leader at work, whether you're mentoring kids, whether you're a pastor, we need more authentic leaders who admit when they've blown it or hurt caused harm even unintentionally. Like I said, the foot slips off the brake. And I think that's why reality TV, quote unquote, is so big is because people watch a bigger train rep than their life on television and go, okay. What did they do with that? Half the time, it's really bad scripting because writers are coming up with that, so it's not really reality.
Speaker 2:Right? But, guys, we get to model that. Hey. I blew it over here. We tell our mentees the stories of what we learned and the truth that Jesus gave, oh, that we could breathe again.
Speaker 2:So I know I have fire hosed your audience because I've talked about my story. I've talked about mentoring. I've talked about how to attend to your own inner world in some ways that hopefully can cause change, and and, you know, I didn't even think of this till right now. Thank you, Jesus, for that. But now that I live in Arkansas, I'm only doing remote sessions, coaching and counseling.
Speaker 2:And so if someone listening is going, I don't even know who I would ask to help me work through something. Go to my website, doctor michelwatson.com. Write me. We could set up sessions. You know?
Speaker 2:Don't have to be long term, but if you if you don't have anyone, you don't know where to go, or maybe you're a leader and you say, I don't want anybody to know that about me in my community, that that's who I work with, a lot of leaders and pastors and and all the way down to, you know, 13 on up. So that might be a resource as well.
Speaker 1:And I feel like I should call you and toss-up a couple counseling sessions on the old calendar because you just I mean, there is so much in our conversation that I that just kinda caught my eye, and I wanna be chewing on. I I think that last part about apologizing and how the thing that you think is the thing is not the thing, and just how often I take out my stuff on the people that I care about the most, whether it's my wife or my kids or my mentees. And and then that next level, apologizing. Like, I am awesome at saying, hey, man. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:But to go that deep and to be that humble and to share that openly, I mean, that's like that's like some that is big time right there. So And
Speaker 2:a lot of people never had anyone model that to them or teach them those things, and that's why, you know, even in the books that I write to dads, I've had women say, I'm reading it because I wanna learn how to be an active listener, how to ask better questions to draw other people out. Those kinds of techniques or skills, if we haven't been taught them, where do we go? I don't know. And that's why I said at the very beginning, the more you can teach your kids, your mentees, how to listen to Jesus' voice rather than yours, you can give some input, but then say, let's ask Jesus what he wants to say to you right now, and you both are quiet. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:Game changer. Two ears, one mouth for a reason. Right? Like, learning how to listen is sometimes we can get full of ourselves and think I've got so much to say, which I realized today on the podcast is definitely out of balance if we were sitting face to face, like, earlier when we had a conversation before we recorded it was more back and forth, but I I can only pray and trust right now that those listening maybe have 1 or 2 things that they could put into action so that the relationships around them become healthier and their relationship with themselves and with Jesus becomes healthier and more authentic and real because we all want to not be non triggered? I mean, don't we all wanna be healthier versions of what we had passed down to us?
Speaker 2:Well, it means we gotta do the work. You know? You're not gonna be good on a sports team if you don't do the practices and the reps at home on your own. You gotta build those muscles somehow, but it takes a lot of intentional dedicated work to make that happen. But it's possible, and that's what's so fun is I am a different version, Zach, of myself today than I was at 19.
Speaker 2:Some of the same DNA, the same artistic, creative, musical leader, but, oh my goodness, I have been a reactive bumpkin, and I don't react near as much. Still sometimes here and there, but it's it's less often than it was back even when I was mentoring, but no one was talking about this in the eighties. You know, it was just kinda you dealt with your private world, your own, and went to church to learn the word. You know? And they kinda stayed separate, and I love that we now are at a place in our culture where it's more integrated.
Speaker 2:You know? We bring our authentic stuff, you know, to the forefront. In fact, my friend Paul Young, the guy you you've maybe seen The Shack or read The Shack seen The Shack movie or read The Shack, but what he says, dear friend of mine from back home, that he would say, God must really like process because everyone I know is in 1. You know?
Speaker 1:So true. So true.
Speaker 2:Used to the process and bring it to the Lord, and we bring it to each other. And, man, if somebody's listening and has some stuff, they're getting triggered, or if you've got a private life, pornography, abuse, you know, you can tell in your mind there's sexual violation or crossing lines. Stop mentoring today. Stop mentoring. You will cause more harm, and I man, that was a download, Zach.
Speaker 2:I was not even knowing that was gonna come out of my mouth right then, but I'm like, stop mentoring today and deal with those things because you can heal from those things, but you can't do both. You can't give out and keep that world private and expect God to bless that simultaneously. So take the time to deal with your inner world, number 1. Number 2, slow down, pull the car over, stop, lift up the hood, learn to listen to Jesus voice, number 3, and that's that's really all I've got. Take it to Jesus.
Speaker 1:Doctor Michelle Watson Canfield, thank you so much for
Speaker 2:your time. People can find you
Speaker 1:on social media, on your website, all of that good stuff. All of it will be in the show notes, but thank you so much for sharing your wisdom on on just a whole whole bunch of things today.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's been a joy to be with you. Thank you so much for letting me share some of my story and my passion, and I love what you're doing, Zach. Keep up the great work. I loved hearing your story about I mean, everything I've talked about today is your story about how God has taken the mess and giving you a message and taking the test, giving you a testimony, and you are living proof and an example of a man who's looked at his stuff and continuing to walk with Jesus. And now seeing him use you, and you have seen him use you for many years, and I just pray blessing over you in Jesus' name.
Speaker 2:I pray that God would continue to bless you and keep you, make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you as he lifts up his countenance upon you as a father to his son and that he would give you his peace.
Speaker 1:I'll take it. Thank you so much, doctor Michelle. And, audience, thank you so much for tuning in. If you guys missed all this good stuff, then, well, you're missing out. But remember one thing, you can mentor.