Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Long Game Heater Rivalry Podcast. You're joined by me, Declan, and once again, Jen from the Book Refuge. Again, Sylvan will be setting this one out. He is still working on some stuff in the background. So look forward to a little announcement coming soon. we're getting some very exciting people on the pod. But of course, first we have the pleasure of Jen's company.
Who's joining me for sort of like a part two of Tough Guy? And we're gonna focus on somewhat of a more controversial episode, you could say, where we are going to compare how this new couple of Ryan and Fabian sort of compares to Ilya and Shane. So, Jen, obviously.
Rachel Reed has taken a completely sort of different approach to how she's written this couple in Tough Guy.
Jenn (00:56)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (00:57)
how do you think in general do they compare with the sort of previous two couples? 'Cause obviously we've so far had Ilya and Shane and we've had Scott and Kip. How do you think she's written these slightly differently?
Jenn (01:12)
Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting take because I feel like this one has a more of a fun, like meet cute meet again, a little bit like Game Changer does, but it also has the you know this a second chance trope too. So it's it's not really like either of those, you know.
Declan (01:29)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (01:31)
and it also I feel like is more mature at the same time.
Even though as we get into some of this, there are still going to be aspects that are immature. That happens whenever we're dealing with love and emotion and intimacy, we're always going to be immature at some time. So I don't hold that against them at all, believe me. So I think in those ways, it I think she warms you up to it more. And I think that can be really nice, especially for people who game changer and heated rivalry.
if you've been reading through this series again without having fallen maybe in love with it through the TV show, which I think most of us did, or and I know you didn't, you read the books, all of them first, right? it it's a definitely a different pace. And that can be really great to try different ways to get into it. And I know we talked about last time too, it really felt like Rachel Ree was trying all these different mix up in different ways of every
combination of re of relationship and that's really fun. So in some ways I think it is really difficult to compare because they're so different. you know even when kind of going over where you want us to go with this conversation, I'm like, hmm, which parts can I compare? Because they're very different people.
Declan (02:53)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (02:54)
I think it's almost like specific scenes we have to find to compare and contrast that feel like similar scenes almost, but
Declan (03:02)
Yeah.
Jenn (03:02)
it's gonna be fun.
But that's kind of my overall thing, is I think it feels very different. if we compare like maybe the three first meetings.
Declan (03:12)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (03:14)
This is a really cute like re like re meat cute. I think is very sweet.
Declan (03:20)
Yeah.
Jenn (03:22)
I mean of the three meat cute though, I do like Scott and Kipps like the best. Just just on the first meeting of a Meat Cute. I think Scott and Kipps
Declan (03:29)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (03:30)
is very sweet. so anyway.
Declan (03:33)
Smoothie
job. Yeah. I agree with you. I do think that she took a different approach, especially with Ryan and Fabian, and there is way less angst in their story, I think. I think it might also be to do the thing you said, like if feels more mature, their relationship feels a bit more mature. And I'd
Jenn (03:54)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Declan (03:55)
say that's true to life because obviously Shane and Ilya people seem to forget that they're really young when they meet.
And while the like the
Jenn (04:03)
Yes. Yeah.
Declan (04:05)
story happens over a number of years, whereas with Fabian and Ryan, it's a lot more condensed. It's basically over mumps. And while they do previously know each other, they don't really know the adult versions of each other. Unlike Jane and Ilya, who are constantly dipping in and out of each other's lives, Fabian and Ryan have had years apart from one another and a sort of unspoken attraction towards each other and they never acted on.
Jenn (04:27)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (04:28)
So already you have a different setup, you have a different dynamic, you have much older people with a bit more life experience and a bit more experience with dating. So it is interesting that she does sort of run with it in a different direction. maybe she just got tired of writing the acts of having two
Jenn (04:46)
Yeah.
Declan (04:47)
characters constantly needing to be together, but her having to force them apart for an interesting story. which per Shane and Ilya have to go through, but
I do like that she's switched it up a bit. I think if she tried to redo the whole rivals to lovers thing again, like so quickly after Shane and Ilya,
Jenn (05:06)
huh.
Declan (05:06)
I I think they would you would get a little bit of burnout in a sense.
Jenn (05:10)
Yeah.
Declan (05:11)
so I'm glad that she sort of takes sort of Fabian and Ryan in a different direction and approaches them at a bit more of a almost in like a regular way that people meet. Like Shane and Ilya, that is like
It's fantasy. It's not very likely. I'm sure there are a couple of closeted hockey players out there that might be going through this, but as far as I'm aware, I've never seen it happen before and I've never heard of it happening before. So that's a bit more
Jenn (05:38)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (05:38)
a wish fulfillment sort of thing. Whereas Ryan and Fabian are meeting sort of on the same wavelength at this point. They're both you know.
They're both mature enough and have enough relationship experience to be able to pursue something more adult. And they have a more adult starting to their relationship. So I think that's that's interesting. and yeah, I think they're also very, very different characters in general. Like they're
Jenn (06:07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Declan (06:08)
all very unique. Shane is completely different from any of the other three. So is Ilya, so is Fabian, and so obviously is Ryan. Ryan in particular.
coming from his background as a hockey player, couldn't be more different from the other two hockey players, which I think is an interesting choice too. So yeah, I just find it an
Jenn (06:29)
Yeah.
Declan (06:29)
interesting direction.
Jenn (06:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and one of the the things that okay, so and I'll also comparing the three couples. Why I think you know, we talked so much last time about the anxiety and the mental health part, in the first one, but you know, I mean, we can't not talk about that in this part either. What makes that so important is that really is the main obstacle.
in their relationship. Whereas when you look at the previous two, the secrecy is the obstacle in two different
Declan (07:04)
Yeah.
Jenn (07:04)
ways, right? In the one, it's the one hockey player who's closeted, one, you know, out, but you know, pretty happy, comfortable in other ways. Also, it's like rich man, poor man kind of dynamic in the first one too.
Declan (07:17)
Okay.
Jenn (07:18)
which is fun because it feels kind of like a Cinderella-esque thing too, a little bit.
Declan (07:21)
Yeah, yeah.
Jenn (07:23)
and then the second one, you know, it's
literally the rivals to lovers, we can never be together, and we're two closeted, queer people too. now we're in this one where the queerness isn't have to really be a secret. Cause even Ryan himself, like, we talk about that a lot. He isn't have to hide that, but does it even matter that he's gay if he's never doing anything about it? He
Declan (07:45)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (07:45)
doesn't really have to confront anything about it, but his own anxiety about it and what he's looking for in a relationship is what's in his way. Because he
Declan (07:54)
Yeah.
Jenn (07:54)
Isn't really, and I'm so sorry, this is such a general he's not really being gay the way he sees other people being gay, which I know that's himself putting himself in a box. But I felt that in parts of the story where he's he's the one comparing himself to like, I wish I could just hook up with people, but that's not what I want for myself. So
Declan (08:12)
Yeah.
Jenn (08:13)
being gay, being straight doesn't matter to me because I can't have what I want anyway. And when he sees Fabian, even though there's so much about him, that's exactly what he's looking for.
He kind of assumes Fabian's looking for a certain type of thing. And to be fair, when we're in Fabian's head, Fabian's kind of living that certain way as well. so it kind of he's like, I can't even hope to ask for that because I can't be what fits in that. So that's what the the conflict or the barrier to the relationship is gonna be. When otherwise these two mature, you know, gay men, there shouldn't be anything else in their way because he's not having to hide that he's gay. well
you know, Fabian doesn't want hockey players, but he could get over that if we got to that. Yeah, we can work on that if he really,
Declan (08:57)
We can work on that, that's fine.
Jenn (09:01)
you know, once he sees the type of man Ryan is, right? So,
Declan (09:04)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (09:04)
you know, Rachel Reed puts in those obstacles of like, well, it's gonna be a problem because of these reasons. So that's what I think is is really intelligent and clever about it, is it's like, okay, I've showed you two stories where there are really big obstacles
Jenn (09:20)
so she's found a new way for there to be conflict that makes it feel fresh and different because it's not the same that we saw. So that's what kept me really interested in their story. Is it like,
Declan (09:31)
Yeah.
Jenn (09:32)
isn't gonna be the same. And so I think in a way it keeps you from comparing them too much. Because after you read a story like Heated Rivalry.
And you, you know, just really fall for those those messed up boys so much. And you have these like emotional like think about it. When you come out of the cottage and out of the epilogue of their story and into this, it could feel like a real crash after it.
Declan (09:58)
Yeah.
Jenn (10:00)
and you know, thankfully I've had quite some time of other stuff in between, but it's just such a different scenario. So anyway, that was a big ramble about that. But I think it was really smart to make it so different.
And you're kind of like, okay, well, what's the deal? But as it unfolds, it's like, well, it is kind of a big deal. And he's not just being a wimp or anything about it. This is seriously an issue for him. It's just a very different type of one that isn't, you know, the whole world of hockey maybe won't care, but it's very important to these two men. And and when you're in a romance, that's all that matters for it to be an issue,
Declan (10:34)
Yeah.
Jenn (10:35)
is that it's a big deal for them. So
Declan (10:37)
Yeah.
And that's interesting. I'm really glad that you did spot the fact that the queerness is no longer like the main conflict. whereas in the first two, that's very much what the issue is. It's you know, Scott and Kip can't be together because you cannot come out and be yourself in this hockey league. It's the same for Shane and Ilya and they also have an element of secrecy as well, and their rivalry and two to consider for that. But
For Fabian and Ryan, it's so different. It's I think it's also a start of a trend for Rachel Weed introducing more mental health themes into your books as issues for conflict, as obstacles for people to overcome. Now, in the book after this, it's much less so. I feel like that element gets set aside again, and I think it's to its detriment. But within this one, she is really putting a good focus on it.
And it really helps then in her final two books in the series because she finds a nice balance between introducing issues in terms of their sort of sexuality and how that impacts them and their stories. And also then the impact of mental health issues and resolving internal conflicts. And she does take it in like a nice direction. And I do like that she has created a sort of a different storyline the approach because
It can be a bit emotionally draining to constantly have your sexuality be a conflict in your stories, especially if it's a long-running series. At some point,
Jenn (12:11)
Yes. Yes.
Declan (12:14)
you are gonna want to touch space with you know, a regular conflict, like a regular conflict between two gay men or two gay characters or queer characters, and just have
Jenn (12:28)
Yeah.
Declan (12:28)
them face what is a pretty common and
not always easy to resolve relationship conflict, which is I don't know if I can support the life that you lead in terms of your career and if you
Jenn (12:42)
Yeah.
Declan (12:42)
have the correct priorities. I don't know if I'm gonna be available for you because I also have my own goals and my own priorities.
Jenn (12:49)
Yeah.
Declan (12:50)
and I don't know if you're ready yet for this relationship because you clearly have some mental health concerns that you feel like you need to resolve first. like
Jenn (13:00)
Yeah. So
Declan (13:02)
A lot of people would
Jenn (13:03)
good.
Declan (13:03)
not be prepared to take on Ryan's Ryan's problems.
Jenn (13:08)
Yeah.
Declan (13:09)
which is it's sad for him because, you know, it's not his fault that he has horrible anxiety, but as someone coming from the outside in, I can imagine that seeing his his worries and his problems and everything associated with them and the way in which he lives his life in this sort of state of constant vigilance.
would probably be very intimidating to be around. Like intimidating to try to help them manage and try to deal with them. And especially I don't know if you're aware of this, but like I feel like a lot of gay relationships are quite transactional. And the people that do get into relationships typically try to find people that are as as unproblematic as they can possibly get with as few issues as possible. Which
Jenn (13:58)
Yeah.
Declan (13:58)
is becoming a bit true of
relationships in general, I think, and like modern dating, but I
Jenn (14:04)
Yeah.
Declan (14:04)
think that's also an element of things. And so for Fabian to set that aside and to take Ryan for who he is and to offer him like empathy is a way
Jenn (14:16)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (14:16)
through their conflict that really works. The issue comes then when Fabian like withdraws it from Ryan in their sort of arguments about you know Ryan's health and his decision to continue being a hockey player.
And so yeah, it's a much different a much different conflict than I was expecting when I first read it. But holy welcome as well. I I felt it was a more mature story in a sense.
Jenn (14:45)
Yeah. I mean I think that's why the age is important. because you know, Fabian he's he's reaching the end of that at the start, like with his hookup culture time, also the scene that he's in. I mean, that's not to stereotype, he's admitting that about himself. His friends are trying to help him get out of that, as well. So that's
That's on the page as he's like, you know, he's had his clawed time. And I'm sure there's been other men too, where that's just the scene that he's in. He's like, I could find someone to hook up with at this place. I know I'm beautiful. I know I've got it. I can do that. But he's becoming dissatisfied with it as well. And for Ryan, that's just never been a possibility. Even before
Declan (15:27)
Mm.
Jenn (15:27)
he had got on medication to make it hard, his anxiety.
it made it difficult for the connection. that was difficult before. And now that's just not a possibility at all if he's
Declan (15:39)
Yeah.
Jenn (15:40)
going to have satisfaction in his relationships. And so if he had run into Fabian again any sooner in his life, not only would he like not be on the mental health journey that he's on, have a therapist, have medication, be feeling
You know, though I would struggle to say that I mean Ryan's not feeling confident yet, but he's at least like on the journey to get to that. He understands which puzzle pieces have to be in place for it to work. he now needs a partner who can help him feel confident in it, but he at least knows the pieces that he'll need. If they'd run into one another, you know, even a year before, it wouldn't have worked. Even if you've been like, I have good memories of him when when I was young, that's great. You know, maybe they
could have had coffee and been like, cool, I'll hear about your music. I think they both could have still been on pining, but it would nothing could have happened because
Declan (16:32)
Yeah.
Jenn (16:33)
it just could not. And Fabian would have like, was he flirting with me a little bit? I don't know, but nothing could have come of it because it just couldn't have. So I think their age and things they've been through now are very important. And they're, you know, as much as they
kind of talk about they reminisce about the time when they were young and before things went like this isn't a couple that could have had a long term through it all. Like they couldn't have done that. So they couldn't have been high school sweethearts or long term thing. Like that couldn't have worked for them. You know, there's some people
Declan (17:09)
Yeah.
Jenn (17:11)
that they can and that's beautiful. And that just couldn't be the case for them. So yeah. But that's beautiful for them too. Mm-hmm
Declan (17:19)
Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. I think especially
with maybe Ryan as well, like he wasn't really dealing too much with his anxiety in the beginning, it sounds like, whenever he was first starting to play professionally, and you get the sense that he was really ignoring it to the point where it made itself known regardless of whether or not he wanted to ignore it.
And then you can imagine him meeting a much younger Fabian as well again. And Fabian is obviously outliving his life. He's enjoying the single life, sleeping around, he's doing whatever he wants. Like, was he would he have been ready for the sort of settled down, committed relationship that Ryan would have been looking for? I would say probably not. And
Jenn (18:05)
No.
Declan (18:06)
that sort of makes sense as well. And so I do like that Rachel Reed is taking this age group and looking at it because
It is so true, like depending on what age you are, like, the way that you approach relationships and wanting to get into relationships is completely different. Like, the
Jenn (18:21)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Declan (18:23)
way in which I view relationships now compared to whenever I was like 21 is completely different now. So I like that she is looking at older characters. and it's funny, in the next book, they're even older again. Well, one of them is and the other one is younger. So you get to play around
Jenn (18:37)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Declan (18:40)
with a bit of an age gap. So she's asking more questions of like
Different types of relationships at different points in times with different ages. And I I really like that element of it. but yeah, I like the way the way the age influences so much of of these two in particular, I think is is really cool. Now I wanted
Jenn (18:57)
Yeah. Right.
Declan (19:00)
to have a look at these
Jenn (19:03)
Do
Declan (19:04)
couples in terms of very particular things that people look for in relationships, right? And also we look for in MM romance books as readers.
so I'm gonna give a like a subtitle, let's say, of for example, chemistry. So
Jenn (19:22)
Okay.
Declan (19:22)
how does the chemistry measure up between different couples? Let's start
Jenn (19:26)
Okay.
Declan (19:27)
with Shane and Ilya. How do you feel that their chemistry is whenever they're with one another?
Jenn (19:33)
Okay. Now our I think we gotta decide the scale out of ten, right? I think five's not enough. So we going out of ten. And
Declan (19:42)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Jenn (19:44)
we're talking at like okay. Shane and Ilya. man, this is so hard. Cause you're at I don't know. Cause it's impossible. Okay, it's impossible to do book only here, Declan.
Declan (19:59)
Yeah,
because she can't stop visualizing.
Jenn (20:00)
I literally like they have such an unfair advantage because I
also have no I have no memory of them not like they're so so I mean let's just say as it is like they're like a nine point five out of ten chemistry
Declan (20:16)
Yeah.
Jenn (20:17)
wise they'll burn the pages of it okay like they just burn it up so I'm just saying that I'm saying it so how about you
Declan (20:27)
I a hundred percent agree.
I do think that out of all the characters, except for maybe one couple, they have the most chemistry. I think it's electric on the page. They're like from the moment they first meet, they are like there's electricity, like and then the way that it's maintained as well throughout a number of years too, like that never fades.
Jenn (20:48)
Mm.
Declan (20:49)
Like the idea of like the spark or whatever, like
Jenn (20:51)
It just gets better.
Declan (20:53)
yeah, it's I think it just gets stronger as it goes on.
Jenn (20:56)
Yeah.
Declan (20:57)
So
Jenn (20:57)
Well
and what's funny, like just a pause of the two, what's funny too is like I know couples in real life that like are a Shane and Ilya where it's the like the constant banter all day long. Some
Declan (21:09)
Mm.
Jenn (21:10)
almost bordering on sexual, most of it not. But a lot of it just like chirp like I didn't know okay, by the way, I didn't know chirp was a thing until reading sports romance. And now I'm like, wow, that's what that is.
Just chirps all day long in everything all day long, just all the time. And if they're not teasing each other, I'm like, no, they're fine.
And it's that like love language. Yeah.
Declan (21:32)
That if I
Jenn (21:34)
It's just wonderful. So anyway, just off the charts.
Declan (21:38)
Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna sit with like a a nine, a nine out of ten. There's always room for improvement, of course.
Jenn (21:43)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true.
Declan (21:47)
but yeah, no, I think you're right. I think their chemistry does just really work on the page. I think it's the strongest element of their book. I think it's what is
Jenn (21:53)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (21:54)
most convincing about them as a couple is the fact that there is just so much between the two and they're so opposite, which is so interesting, and I think that actually lends itself.
Jenn (22:03)
Yeah.
Declan (22:04)
because they behave
in ways with each other that they wouldn't usually behave with anybody else. And I think that
Jenn (22:09)
Yes.
Declan (22:10)
lends itself to it. It's like they can't help they can't help but they have to be this way of each other. I I really enjoy that element. Now Ryan and Fabio. What where do you think their chemistry falls?
Jenn (22:25)
Yeah, okay. So this one is a little harder because I'm just going off book and I'm also just going off audiobook, right? Because I listen to
Declan (22:36)
Mm.
Jenn (22:37)
this. So at the best of times in the book, when I think they're at the best like of it, I put them maybe at like a six to a se no, I just did it. I'm sorry, everyone. a six and a half.
Declan (22:52)
Mm-hmm. Commit,
commit.
Jenn (22:56)
I know. I'd put them at a six-seven in there. Sorry. I just did it. So sorry. I hate myself a little bit. I'd put them about that at their best. I I don't think it's bad. It's better than average in in stuff I've read.
Declan (23:13)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (23:14)
But I truly cause there's also this thing of like, I I don't want everything to it, but you know, you guys are the
the long game podcast. So I have so put so much potential for what that couple on screen will look like. I think it could just
Declan (23:27)
Mm. Then I can't wait.
Jenn (23:29)
be I just can't wait to see who they put in those roles. And I could see that I'll feel even better about it because I can just see this awkward Viking of a man and this just sexy man with smoky eyeliner just sidling up to him and just being fantastic. yes. I'm just
Declan (23:47)
Sexy pirate looking person that plays music.
Jenn (23:51)
I'm just ready for it. Like I've seen yeah, seen so many imaginings of him and I love it. but yeah. So yeah, I think I think it's about there. Yeah.
Declan (24:05)
I kind of agree. I think these actually sit at about a six. I'm gonna say that. I think honestly
Jenn (24:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (24:15)
I view them more as like cute rather than like they're not setting my world on fire. They're not and yeah.
Jenn (24:21)
Yeah. We need more time with them. Like they're just
it's like you said, we have a decade of the chemistry built for the other couple. We're can like
Declan (24:31)
Yeah.
Jenn (24:32)
we're doing the comparison part. So I'm like, you know, they haven't had the same amount of time or the inside jokes. Ryan's
Declan (24:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (24:39)
really awkward, but it's there. Like when he's with the group and we get to see him teased with him, that's what I mean is it's like there's potential to them, but
Declan (24:47)
Yeah, it's almost like we're waiting for like rhyme to come out of a shell to sort of give it as good as it gets. But at the moment
Jenn (24:51)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Declan (24:54)
he is, obviously still very anxious and very paranoid that people don't like him, which is so odd because he's such a likable character.
Jenn (25:04)
There you go.
Declan (25:06)
but it doesn't lend for like really strong chemistry on the page, which Yeah, is understandable
Jenn (25:14)
Yeah.
Declan (25:15)
and
I think it's also hard to live up to the chemistry
Jenn (25:19)
Yeah.
Declan (25:19)
of Shane and Ilya in that way. So maybe the comparison is just a bit harsh because of its contemporary, like who it's being compared to. So Yeah, but I I'm gonna stand by that and we're gonna revisit this when the show comes out.
Jenn (25:28)
Yeah. You know, you know what we miss. Yes, yeah. You know what we
missed out on? We missed out on more time of like his best is when he's around Wyatt. which I know it should be when he's around Fabian, but we need to like see him around Fabian after he's been out of hockey for a while more. So getting to see him after, I feel like after he's been, you know.
Doing more of his like volunteering stuff and he's not so stressed about flying and he's not so stressed about that stuff. We'll actually get to see who he is. So I hope in Unrivaled we get to see some more of that. But I almost, I almost I'm glad he has retired and got his time. But I am also sad he didn't get at least one year on, you know, on the Avengers team. because I think we've really
Declan (26:20)
Yeah.
Jenn (26:21)
seen the potential. Like that's the.
Hopefully he comes to see his buddy play some games. That's what I'm hoping for.
Declan (26:26)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (26:28)
And then we get like the party afterwards because there's, you know, I'm again trying to stay canonical, but the best of that we see of him is in the long game and chemistry
Declan (26:37)
Yeah.
Jenn (26:39)
with Fabian there of when he's being like, Yeah, that's my man up there and stuff like that is his best. So
Declan (26:44)
Yeah,
sorta yeah, I'm taking him home after this sort of thing. There is something there. I think in their story though
Jenn (26:47)
Mm-hmm. Like and and Yeah. And even Shane
and like, you know, Fabian's not even like Shane's type. And Shane's like, just from seeing how Ryan's reacting to this, he's feeling it. Like that's Yeah,
Declan (26:59)
Change like damn.
Jenn (27:01)
that is like Fabian's not Shane's type, and he's like, I'm seeing it, I'm seeing it.
Declan (27:06)
Elia's like,
hmm, maybe it was a mistake bringing you here.
Jenn (27:10)
No, no. Ilya's like, you just keep getting wound up, putty. I'm taking you home after this.
Declan (27:18)
Now
I have an interesting one.
Jenn (27:22)
Yeah.
Declan (27:22)
and I think this is gonna shake things up a little bit.
Jenn (27:24)
Yeah.
Declan (27:25)
how do you feel that first of all, Ilya and Shane read in terms of emotional intelligence? Now, just to clarify, when I mean an emotional intelligence, I mean like how well they can read their partners, how sort
Jenn (27:39)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (27:39)
of aware they are of their feelings, and how they act.
to sort of like make sure that their needs are met. That's kind of what I mean by emotional intelligence.
Jenn (27:50)
Okay, so this is actually the one on your list that got me the most excited
Declan (27:55)
Yeah.
Jenn (27:56)
because so we have to give a rating to each person in this. So Ilya gets an eight for how he reads Shane. Okay. Ilya gets an eight. And again, I'm trying not to too much base this off the long game. I'm kind of just going off of feed, but I kind of am a little bit too, because whatever, I don't
Declan (28:15)
Yeah, well.
Jenn (28:16)
care. I can do what I want. I can do what I want.
Declan (28:19)
Yeah.
Jenn (28:19)
Deal with it. give
him an eight. I give Shane by the end of heated rivalry. I give him like a seven for some things. Okay. There's still a couple of big things, okay? I know, I know. But to
Declan (28:34)
Okay. Okay.
Jenn (28:35)
be fair, to be fair, he's reading Slavic Russian.
Declan (28:40)
Yeah.
Jenn (28:41)
He's having to read the wall, okay? And Ilya gets to read Shane and Mr. Freckleface, okay? Like who
Declan (28:49)
Yeah.
Jenn (28:50)
like it's about who you're having to read. Like that's the thing too, all right? so I don't know, maybe I'm just being nicer. There are some very important things. Now, in the long game, I feel like Shane backslides because of his own emotional problems, but by the end of
Declan (29:06)
Mm.
Jenn (29:07)
Heated Rivalry,
And when he's spending concentrated time with his man, I think by the end of that, because Ilya's all gooey and cracked open and stuff, he's at like a seven with him. That's my personal take on that. Okay, we'll see. We'll see how other people feel. But then they're apart and Shane like gets too focused in his own head and he loses his ability to emotionally read his partner anymore.
Declan (29:31)
Mm-hmm. Interesting.
Jenn (29:33)
He's a very
like you need to see him in person. That's how I feel about it. Like the more concentrated time they spend together, the more Shane can pick up on that, which makes sense if we take in his, you know, if he is on the autism spectrum. In my opinion, I think the more time he's spending with him, he's picking up on his personal cues. And when he's away from him and is only reading texts and call he's like, I I can only read what you're telling me and you're lying to me, so how can I know? Whereas like Ilya, he's like, I can read through everything you're telling me.
Declan (30:02)
I am reading everyone
Jenn (30:03)
It's not fair. It's a weighted scale. It's literally a weighted
Declan (30:03)
in this place like a book.
Jenn (30:07)
scale. So anyway, point being, I think Ilya, of literally the four of these people, I think Ilya is the most emotionally intelligent because he had to read people's emotions for his safety as a child. When you're in
Declan (30:19)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jenn (30:20)
an abusive home, you need to read people's emotions. also, he's just so good with people. We know that. He's great at blending, he's great at all that like his humor.
also even if he's not if even if it's not his first language, like he's just great at picking up at body language, all those things. He's he's great at that. then like I said, for his partner specifically, I give Shane like sometimes a five, sometimes a seven. Depends on how much time you're spending with him. For me,
Declan (30:49)
Mm.
Jenn (30:50)
I feel for the emotional intelligence parts anyway. And also the part in here about like their seeing to their needs, like there are some really sweet things that Shane does, but again.
That's by the end of it. And when he's almost 30, not when he's 18. Okay. Not when he's 18. All right. Now,
Declan (31:07)
Yeah.
Jenn (31:11)
now Ryan and Fabian. Or do you want to do Shane and Ilya first? Sorry, I don't have to do all of them at once. Sorry. Yep. Sorry.
Declan (31:16)
do Shane LA first then because I'll I'll end up forgetting. I am gonna be harsher with Shane.
Jenn (31:22)
Yes, you go for it. It's okay.
Declan (31:25)
Right, okay,
first of all, just to make things clear, I'm not a shame hater. He's supposed to be flawed. I will I I'm not a shame hater. I'm not a shame hater. False allegations all around. But I am gonna
Jenn (31:28)
I know. Yes. I watch every episode. I know you're not a Shane hater. I know. I defend you and come. Mm-hmm.
Declan (31:39)
hit on this. At
Jenn (31:40)
That's all right.
Declan (31:41)
the beginning of the book though, I do think that he is like sitting at like a four, like sometimes a three. Like he is oblivious to the feelings of the people around him a lot of the time.
And he is constantly just word vomiting out stuff that is just like, my god, why could you say that? Especially to a man that you're in like an affectionate relationship with. And he's also completely
Jenn (32:05)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (32:06)
unable to read intent behind people's actions for most of his book. I agree with you though that he does get progressively better as it goes on. And I think that's part of his character growth. I think that
Jenn (32:18)
Yes.
Declan (32:18)
where he begins in the beginning of the book, he's at a bit of a disadvantage because Shane is young.
And so is Ilya, but Ilya has come from a family background where he's been forced to mature that element of himself and meet needs that he really shouldn't have had to at that point in time. So
Jenn (32:35)
Correct.
Declan (32:37)
Shane does sit at around like a three or four for me at the beginning of the book. I think he finishes at like a six. I think that he does get better, and Ilya brings out a better version of him.
and like
Jenn (32:50)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (32:50)
you said, the more time you spend together, the more that Shane seems to know and understand Ilya. And I think Ilya hasn't made this easy either. I think he's been sort of obviously he's had his ball up, he's wearing his mask, he is withholding information and making things difficult for Shane, who this doesn't come naturally to, you can tell. and so then by the end, I think Shane is sitting more at like a six. And whenever he does the little maybe we should start like a mental health charity, I think that's like
That's like an eight or nine move there. I I love that. I think it was
Jenn (33:21)
Yeah,
Declan (33:23)
so sweet and it was so in touch with what Ilya needed. and felt like a real
Jenn (33:27)
That was his last
little like, I'm gonna push the button, I'm gonna push the red button. That's like
Declan (33:32)
That's it. It was so cute,
so thoughtful and such a generous thing for him to do and that earned major
Jenn (33:39)
Mm.
Declan (33:41)
brownie points with me. Ilya. Hmm. Ilya understands people, but I'm gonna dock him points because he sometimes doesn't act on it in a positive way. And because he puts
Jenn (33:54)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (33:57)
up the mask knowing that it's making light that go for other people.
So I am gonna sit him that generally about an eight like you, but I think he has some of the best understanding of people in the entire show or in the entire series. And you can tell
Jenn (34:10)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (34:11)
that because he he dips in a lot of people's stories. So he does. He he appears like a little fairy godmoller. like fixes somebody's
Jenn (34:19)
Yep, yep, yep.
Declan (34:21)
problem or says something that like has makes someone has a realization and then disappears into the into the mist, so he does. So I do like that element. So I think he sits
Similar to you, I think he sits at about an eight. I think he gets in his own way sometimes and he can do things with a pettiness.
Jenn (34:36)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (34:37)
but if you took that away, he'd be like a ten. He like fully understands people, he gets them, he can read them like books.
Jenn (34:44)
You you made him remember something as you were saying that part is he he's so emotionally intelligent that he can be emotionally manipulative. And I think that part, sorry
Declan (34:53)
Yeah.
Jenn (34:54)
everyone, don't hate me. That part comes from his dad, where he he has seen how it has been done to him. And when Shane will do something that hurts him, he'll do it back sometimes. When he knows he can read, like I said, he can read Shane and he knows maybe Shane's not doing it to hurt him.
And then he's like, but you hurt me and like I'm gonna hurt you back. And instead
Declan (35:17)
Yeah.
Jenn (35:18)
of like, and some of that I think happens more so when they're younger. But then again, like later when it's it's Ilya's mental illness that is causing him pain, he puts that up his mask where he's like, I could be emotionally intelligent and explain to my partner why I'm having these problems. And instead, I'm just gonna be like, It's fine, it's fine. Anyway, so he's so emotionally
Declan (35:38)
Yeah, yeah. That's a good point.
Jenn (35:41)
intelligent, he's like.
I'm gonna hurt you with it. So that's good point. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that's like not
Declan (35:45)
And weaponize it. Mm-hmm. That's interesting. That's a good point.
Jenn (35:49)
fair. That's not fair. Okay. That's not fair. But mm hmm. Okay.
Declan (35:53)
It's not nice. So where do you find
Bobian and Ryan sort of fall in this?
Jenn (36:00)
Yeah, this again is also harder because I feel like I would need to read these again with these questions in mind in a way as well.
Declan (36:09)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (36:11)
But just like gut reactions, I could do it more this way. I feel like Ryan is more emotionally intelligent than Fabian is. But I don't know where I rate them. So I'd love your thoughts.
Declan (36:23)
Mm.
Jenn (36:24)
I think Ryan's more emotionally intelligent, but I don't know.
where I'd put them on a number. Like, cause I I I
Declan (36:32)
Yeah.
Jenn (36:33)
this is where like I find them hard. I know this is a comparisons part, but I think they're just again because we see such a condensed time of their relationship, whereas we're talking about on a grand scale of relationship for Shane and Ilya, it's more
Declan (36:47)
Mm. Yeah.
Jenn (36:48)
funny to talk about like we did what different parts of their lives where they're on different scale. And for Ryan and Fabian, like I don't know where to start. I
We talked about it a bit before. Like I think Fabian's still being a bit immature. I think that's the lifestyle he's living a little bit and the artist life and doing this. He hasn't had anyone who's really pushed him to try to be too mature yet. Like,
Declan (37:09)
Yeah.
Jenn (37:10)
like for relationship wise. Like he's had to be mature in other things. Obviously, he's a musician. He's he in some aspects that means you're businessman in some things. Like he's making career decisions. And he's not
Declan (37:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jenn (37:19)
fully just artsy flooty tootie stuff. Like he's had to make decisions and do things. So he's intelligent man.
Doing that. But in the emotional intelligent part, he hasn't had to do that. But I don't fully think he's bereft of that. Like he has good relationships. He's maintained with friends and people who really love him. So I don't think he's like, you know, a sociopath or anything where he's manipulating a bad way by enemies.
Declan (37:44)
Mm. No. I don't think anyone has
Jenn (37:49)
But I also don't think he thinks of the consequences. As we said, he's very impulsive and
Can be very hurtful in that. So I don't know. I that's where I struggle. So honestly, I think he could maybe be at like a five through this, but like by the end, he's lifting out of it because he has someone to care about. And so
Declan (38:09)
Yeah.
Jenn (38:10)
his intelligence is raising throughout it, right?
Declan (38:12)
Mm.
Jenn (38:13)
And Ryan, I think it starts higher because he's done a lot of emotional work on himself, but again, he also hasn't tried to.
To put it into practice with a partner. Yeah, he's very scared to do that. He is craving that. Like we feel that deep desire in him, but he doesn't think anyone will take him on. and he thinks Fabian
Declan (38:35)
Yeah.
Jenn (38:35)
is so much more perfect than him, that could never happen. and so emotionally intelligent wise and knowing himself and knowing what he's looking for, maybe he's like at a seven, but he hasn't put any in
Declan (38:49)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn (38:50)
practice. So what does that really mean?
So does that make sense how I broke that down? I don't know.
Declan (38:55)
Yeah,
it does. I think it's funny because they both are emotionally intelligent in different ways and they excel in I think they're almost opposites. I think Ryan is emotionally aware of himself and he is good at monitoring himself and his own feelings and how his actions might influence others, but he is completely incapable of reading other people.
He just automatically assumes that there is something
Jenn (39:25)
That's right. Selfishness.
Declan (39:29)
they don't like him or that they are thinking that he's this and he's that and he is so up in his head with his paranoia that he is not able to actually read the sort of the vibe of somebody or their emotions or what they might be feeling in any moment in time. He's he struggles to to like allow himself to not overthink it and just see what's in front of him.
Whereas Fabian, I feel like is the opposite. He is very good at reading other people's emotions and very good at setting them at ease. And a lot of his sort of like intimate scenes with Ryan, he is very, very emotionally aware of Ryan's state and he coaxes him, he takes it slow. he is kind and he does offer Ryan words of reassurance. He can see that Ryan needs a lot of reassurance and he does know to give it to him.
But then when it comes to his own self-reflection and his own sort of monitoring of his own mental state, he's not great. He thinks selfishly a lot of the times, and he doesn't consider how sometimes his actions might influence other people. Or he
Jenn (40:38)
Yeah.
Declan (40:39)
might just be incapable of controlling himself whenever he has like an urge or a thought. He like ticks
Jenn (40:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (40:45)
it up to 11. He gets over dramatic about things and it results in hurt happening, particularly in Ryan's case. and so
Yeah, it's almost like they have something to teach each other. So they do. Ryan can teach Fabian a bit more about looking inwards and making sure that you're in touch with your own feelings and you're in touch with you know, how you're feeling and how that, you know, state of being might influence others. And then Fabian could teach Ryan about reading people and understanding not not everyone's out to get you and that.
A lot of your anxieties come from this assumptions that you have for people. So I would say they both sit at like between a five and a six, I'm gonna say. They both have work to do, but in different ways.
Jenn (41:32)
Yeah, yeah. And I guess too reading back kind of how you mean it by that makes the most sense too. Cause like who acknowledges their partner's needs better and who is more aware of what the other's feeling. Yeah. No, I can see that. I think I think one of the big things for me that adds to it is the like I think of course you'll agree with this too.
I think Fabian needs to be getting into therapy too and starting
Declan (42:03)
Yeah.
Jenn (42:04)
to work on the selfishness impulses. And hopefully there'll be a like, you know what I could foresee in the future is a like couples therapy happening and then that leading to Fabian like Ryan being like, Hey, come with me sometime, and then that leading to like, maybe I should be seeing someone on my own too. Like I
Declan (42:22)
Yeah.
Jenn (42:22)
literally could see those steps happening for them. And I think that, you know, in the coming years of their relationship.
That really helping with that, you know. And again, I think now Fabian having someone he deeply cares about, he's going to adjust those because he's a good person. Like he's a good person
Declan (42:39)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (42:40)
who has selfish tendencies, like most people do. Like most people do. It's not like he's a
Declan (42:43)
Most people, yeah.
Jenn (42:47)
monster for it or he's awful or whatever. He just hasn't
Declan (42:49)
Yeah.
Jenn (42:50)
had anyone that he's needed to do that. And a lot of his selfishness, I feel like, has been protective
Declan (42:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Jenn (42:59)
because of
How his family was. And he's like, Well, they're not looking out for me. They're not putting me first. And so I'm going to do that. And in this new life,
Declan (43:05)
Mm. Yeah.
Jenn (43:08)
I'm doing that. So now that he has someone who's putting him first in ways, he's gonna reciprocate. So I think your assessment is smart. Yeah.
Declan (43:15)
Yeah. I
suppose a better way rather than selfishness, I suppose it's individualism with him. I think that's more he is more obsessed with keeping his own peace to the point where he's
Jenn (43:29)
Yeah.
Declan (43:29)
letting stuff go with other people if he just compromised a little bit, just gave a little bit rather than, you know, expecting a perfect person. I think that's where him and Ryan, you know, have
Jenn (43:40)
Yeah.
Declan (43:41)
difficulties because Ryan is someone who would require a lot of compromise because of
like the like undeniable way that he has to live his life because of his mental illness. And so
Jenn (43:52)
Yeah.
Declan (43:52)
yeah, Fabian could be missing out on a really amazing guy if only he could get his sort of sort of hyper individualistic outlook a bit more under control, which he does do. And that's
Jenn (44:03)
Right.
Declan (44:04)
ends up a very lovely romantic relationship. And speaking
Jenn (44:08)
Right. Well
then like well sorry, one other part. And like going into conversations already planning not to give on it is what they needed to work too. Cause he would like like after the you know, seeing the fight real or like after seeing he's like, he needs to quit hockey or we're out. Like the ultimatum discussions, like going into those as
Declan (44:27)
Yeah, both of them getting us, yeah.
Jenn (44:28)
like how are you in a like you can't be in a relationship w like with that as
Declan (44:33)
Yeah.
Jenn (44:34)
when this is your man's career that makes millions
Declan (44:37)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (44:37)
of dollars.
Like you're just gonna walk in with that as the like it's this or bust. Like, what are you? I don't know. Anyway, we know how that went. But
Declan (44:45)
Yeah.
Jenn (44:47)
that's that kind of thing where you're like, buddy, have you even walked this through a little bit? Like you just had that impulse
Declan (44:53)
Yeah, well.
Jenn (44:54)
and you were like, Nope, that's the right option.
Declan (44:56)
Like
I know this is black and white and this is how things are gonna be, and then this is how I view things and this is how it has to happen. And that just does not work in a relationship. a lot of people are forced to do things that they might necessarily want to do, but it's part of their job or it's part of a commitment that they have and they need to see it through. for Ryan that's very much what this is. It's just someone he has to see it through. And Babby is not ignorant to hockey, he knows that these things happen, he knows that fights happen.
He knows that a lot of the time it's more entertainment value than actually true aggression or you know conflict. And so at you just need the moment to like take a step back. This is not Ryan truly in his authentic self. This is not usually how he behaves. You know that yourself because you know him. So why are you getting yourself all worked up? But yeah, one aspect of him. But for my next point, and this one is
in terms of like romance, like who are the romantics out of these four? Like who are the ones making the grand gestures and the big speeches and the you know moments of confession and selflessness, like not sex, just
Jenn (46:13)
Gonna surprise you.
Declan (46:15)
emotionally giving yourself to another person and just saying the big thing, writing poetry.
Jenn (46:20)
Ready? You ready? You wanna know who
Declan (46:23)
Absolutely.
Jenn (46:23)
the rose romantic? The most romantic man in the Game Changer series.
Declan (46:29)
Does it begin with an I?
Jenn (46:31)
No.
Declan (46:31)
Yeah.
Jenn (46:34)
Shane Hollander is the most romantic man.
Declan (46:37)
Mmm. Speak. Speak on naps, please.
Jenn (46:39)
And you wanna know why?
You wanna know why? All right.
Declan (46:43)
Speak on me.
Jenn (46:44)
all right. Now, to be fair.
He does all the romantic gestures. Okay? He does all the romantic gestures. He does. Just as you saying, like, Ilya is a very sweet. He says a lot of sexy things, but he says most of them in Russian for a good part of the time. Okay? And
Declan (47:06)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (47:07)
he only will say them in English once Shane says them in English first. Also, it's Shane making a, you know, welcoming place for him to come and stay.
And then I can't talk about a lot of the other romantic gestures because they're spoilers, but there's at
Declan (47:25)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (47:26)
least three or four of them in the long game that are Shane making them. Now, granted, I know there's a lot of fumbles Shane makes also in that one. But there's also, as we said, a lot of times where Ilya doesn't just say what he's feeling in that one that makes Shane have to do those romantic gestures to weigh back over. But there's one in Heated Rivalry, of course, that's a huge one.
That everyone's then like, Ilya's the most romantic because he does this thing for you, which is of course, you know, switch teams. But as we've also said, Ilya doesn't give a shit about hockey. So is it really the most romantic gesture? Is it? I mean, I think it's pretty romantic. I'm not actually dying on this hill. I think it's very romantic. And it
Declan (48:04)
Mm. controversial.
Jenn (48:12)
feels very romantic to Shane because he is all about hockey and he's like, my god, he's doing this. This is amazing. But
If we start to list all the things that Shane really does do, like he does so many romantic things for Ilya to to prove it to him. And I think it's beautiful that he does. I of course think Ilya is frickin' fantastic. Okay, everybody again, I love him. I love him so much. But I think Shane is extremely romantic and he just has to think about them a little bit longer.
But this is the man who he when you read the end of Heather Rivalry, like Ilya shows up for this party at the end of Heather Rivalry, and then Shane spends the whole time thinking of how they can be together forever. As soon as he's sure that Ilya likes him, he's like, What about this? Or what about this? And Ilya's like, Hey, maybe I could come to Canada. And Shane's like, Okay, let me scheme for the next twenty four hours until I find a way to make it happen. How about this? How about this? How about this?
Declan (49:13)
Mm. Yeah. Home to the cottage?
Jenn (49:17)
Yeah.
So come to the college with me. He asked like three different times and Ilya isn't even gonna c actually, you know, all these things.
Declan (49:24)
Yes, True
true true true. Okay. Okay.
Jenn (49:27)
so
Declan (49:28)
I think
you might actually be right. Ilya,
Jenn (49:31)
Yeah.
Declan (49:33)
like obviously Ilya does the whole speech in Russian and he does the he has the most romantic lines, I think, but in terms of actual action in the plot, I think you're right. I think it is actually Shane. Shane makes a lot of the big gestures. He buys he buys an apartment for them just to sleep in. Like
Jenn (49:53)
Yeah.
But also sorry, that speech in Russian is Jacob's speech in Russian, by the way. He says I think I love you is the only part that Rachel puts it. I'm just saying if we separate it out, he says, I think I might be in love with you in Russian. He doesn't say all the other parts actually. Just remember
Declan (50:10)
Mm.
Jenn (50:11)
that. He only says I don't I think I might love you and I don't know what to do, which is still romantic, but just keep going.
Declan (50:14)
Yeah. Yeah. True, true.
He is also the one who initiates, you know, the first meet at the home sort of scene. The he invites Shane first. He has the little cute thing with the ginger ale and the making of the horrible china sandwiches. yeah, but then
Jenn (50:33)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (50:36)
Shane is so much proactive and he yearns. He seems to yearn more for Ilya whenever Ilya's not there. Like
He is the one that seems to be the most upset the fact that this relationship can't be pursued and upset about the idea that they can't like be together and he's obsessing over the idea of they get caught and yeah, there is
Jenn (50:57)
And there's no one else for Shane. There's no one else for Shane. And he's mine. Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (51:01)
And he hasn't literally he's literally not sleeping with anyone until Rose and then like he tries that
for like a couple of weeks and then they have to like call a quits because it's just not working. yeah, I think you might be right. I think it might be Shane. Shane might be more romantic. But where does that leave?
Jenn (51:17)
So yeah. But who's
most romantic? They're to me when we look at, and this is again their whole lives, because you're right,
Every time he chirps, he's saying I love you. Every time Shane says fuck you, he's saying I love you, like or you're an asshole, he's saying I love you. They're both nines, maybe tens, depending on the day. They're Yeah, I love them.
Declan (51:35)
Yeah. They're like secondally in love.
Jenn (51:41)
So they're both nines. But my point is is people always say Ilya, and I'm like, I don't think I think they're tied, if not Shane, sometimes 'cause it's
Declan (51:48)
Yeah.
Jenn (51:48)
harder for Shane. So anyway.
Declan (51:51)
I I get your point. I think I think you might be right actually. You've you've convinced me. You've convinced me the chain, the more romantic of the two. Well done. where does
Jenn (51:59)
Sorry. I get heated. I'm
hated about it. Sorry. All right.
Declan (52:04)
Where does that sit now then with Fabian and Ryan? Because I personally believe that Ryan
Jenn (52:12)
You go.
Declan (52:13)
is the more romantic of the two. I think he is the one that seemed to really like Fabian when they were younger. He for him it was like a big deal, the the idea that Fabian liked him. And also
Jenn (52:27)
Yeah.
Declan (52:28)
he's always trying to overcompensate whenever he is like.
Fabian is asking him to do stuff or they attend somewhere. He's the one that's like, I want to make sure that I do everything perfect for him and that I get him, you know. You know, their their
Jenn (52:36)
Quem me sinto, que me lhe sinto.
Declan (52:41)
little like champagne date thing that they all have with friends, and he comes in and he's like, Yeah, I bought like real bottles of champagne and I got all this stuff and I brought these amazing stuff for lunch just because I want to make sure that everything was okay. I don't know what you guys would want. Like, he's so
Jenn (52:55)
Yeah.
Declan (52:56)
sweet.
So he is, I think Ryan
Jenn (52:58)
Yeah.
Declan (52:59)
is just the sweetest. Fabian as well, I think the way that he is so patient with Ryan throughout so much of the book and the way in which he does make him involved and he's very sweet in the way that he talks to Ryan and builds him up. but I think there's just something so adorable about Ryan in the way that he behaves. I think he he is trying to like
Do the little romantic moments and do the sweet thing and do the boyfriend thing and I just think that's so sweet.
Jenn (53:28)
I do. I I agree. Well, what would you give them? You have to go first this time. Yeah.
Declan (53:34)
So Shane
and Ilya, I am going to give Shane for heated rivalry, I'm gonna give him an eight and I'm gonna give Ilya a seven.
Jenn (53:45)
Right. I did convince you.
Declan (53:47)
And then
Jenn (53:51)
Love it so much.
Declan (53:52)
Yeah, you've corrupted me. And then for Tough Guy,
Jenn (53:55)
I'm so proud. I'm so proud.
Declan (54:00)
I think I'm gonna give Ryan a seven point five and maybe Fabian like a six, I think. Hmm. Yeah.
Jenn (54:08)
Yeah. Yep.
That exactly stands because I was gonna give Ryan a seven. and I was gonna give Fabian a I was I was torn. I was honestly gonna give them both sevens. I'll stick with that. I don't have to explain. Cause they're you're right, they're sweet in different ways. So I don't I think so. I always when I'm reviewing my books, I always, you know, write the tropes and f I wrote this one as a it's always been you.
Because of Ryan, because I think that Fabian was his awakening, whatever you want to call it. And though he had I though he hasn't like just pined all this time, 'cause I don't think he expected to see him again, he was someone that I mean, he even said it that he has imagined him or fantasized about him through the time. And he also was, you know, just someone that he sees as his ideal man in a way. So
Declan (55:02)
Mm.
Jenn (55:02)
I think that counts as that in a lot. So I think that's
Declan (55:04)
A little bit of idolizing.
Jenn (55:06)
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, man, I definitely think if he known that noon, noon. I think if he had known that he was a singer that still and all this was happening, that he would have been following him a lot sooner than he was. So he would have been number one
Declan (55:22)
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Jenn (55:24)
fan in all the fan clubs and everything. You're right. I love that he shows up to the as soon as he finds out what he's doing, he will rush to stuff in suits. He leaves parties early to show up. He goes
To clubs, he goes dancing, that makes him the most uncomfortable in the world. And he's showing up there and then just pretending like he just dropped by after things. Like he's so adorable.
Declan (55:44)
What a coincidence.
Jenn (55:46)
Right. But then, like with Fabian, how much he tries to make him comfortable. And like I said, though there are parts of him that I struggle with, with Fabian, he's really perfect for Ryan in a lot of ways, in the romantic sense.
It's kind of the relationship part that I get frustrated with Fabian, but that's
Declan (56:09)
Yeah.
Jenn (56:10)
his character arc, so that's all right. But in the romantic part, he's very patient. And in some ways, his sexual experience and the time he's had with other men made him perfect for Ryan in that because he's like, I've had plenty of empty experiences and I'm kind of done with those. So whatever this is like with you, I'm willing to take my time and just be with you.
And also
Declan (56:33)
Yeah.
Jenn (56:34)
you're super attractive to me, so let's just take our time, which so yeah, I think I'm giving them both sevens because they're just in different ways. Get it for me. So yeah.
Declan (56:44)
Yeah. I can appreciate that. And
speaking of sex
Jenn (56:53)
Let's go.
Declan (56:53)
This is the good stuff. This is the proper stuff now. This
is what we're all we're all really looking to compare here. How has Rachel Reed done sex between these characters? So I'm
Jenn (57:05)
Ready.
Declan (57:05)
not sure how to approach this one because sex is actually a very important part of obviously both relationships, but I feel like in particular Fabian and Ryan. It plays very much into their dynamic and their relationship. but we'll start first. Yeah.
Jenn (57:20)
Maybe we should start with them. Actually.
Declan (57:22)
Well we start with them because
Jenn (57:23)
Let's start with
them. 'Cause it's more sensitive with them. Yeah.
Declan (57:27)
Yeah, yeah, because it it's like
it's part of like Ryan's anxieties. Like this is a reason
Jenn (57:35)
Yes.
Declan (57:35)
why Ryan thinks he's undesirable. It's a big problem for him. He has
Jenn (57:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (57:40)
a lot of self-loathing and shame about it, because he's not able to perform, he's not able to finish, and he is terrified of disappointing his partner, whoever that might end up being. And this is a big reason for why he doesn't do hookups in the first place.
And so the vulnerability that Ryan needs to show and how that is communicated through the sex in the book is very, very important. And it's a big
Jenn (58:05)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (58:06)
element of establishing the trust in the relationship between the two of them. And it also
Jenn (58:10)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (58:11)
I think is where Fabian is most likable. I think this is where he shines best because he's patient,
Jenn (58:16)
Yes, yes, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Declan (58:19)
he's measured, he is cheeky, he's fun, he doesn't take it too seriously.
Jenn (58:23)
Yes. Self deprecating.
Declan (58:25)
Yes, exactly. And he
Jenn (58:26)
Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Declan (58:28)
really does take the time to coax Ryan through
Jenn (58:31)
Thank you.
Declan (58:31)
it and he has endless amounts of patience and they're rewarded for it. Like it works. Fabian's approach works. And so not only does it show his experience as well as a partner, his patience and respect, but also that he does understand Ryan. And this is why
Jenn (58:48)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (58:48)
I think they work as a couple. And so sex is probably one of the most important elements of them as characters.
In terms of like raunchiness, that's not for them. It's not their book. Rachel Reed
Jenn (59:00)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (59:01)
does try to like zhuzh it up a little bit with Fabian and underwear and whatever but
Jenn (59:04)
Yeah. I mean, it feels
so hot though, because I don't know. I don't know about y of course I don't know about you. That's none of my business. But I mean the description
Declan (59:14)
Ha ha ha.
Jenn (59:15)
of like taking your time explaining a scene just doesn't happen in every romance, or
Declan (59:22)
Mm.
Jenn (59:23)
it often is like the first scene gets really described, and then after that an author is just like, okay, we've already done this, or in romances that aren't erotic, but whatever. There's so many different ways an author can do
But if you're gonna make that a very important part of the character, you have to make this significant without it being too cheesy or too easy. Or often what can happen, and this is a huge pet peeve of mine with with MF rom romances, is when
Declan (59:52)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (59:53)
a woman has an issue with orgasm or with
sex being uncomfortable. When it's the man for her, he just gets it right away. And then we're just fucking the rest of the time.
Declan (1:00:03)
Mm.
Jenn (1:00:04)
And it's okay. The he takes his time the first time and then she never has problems again. And it's so annoying because I mean I'm not saying that's never happened for someone because then once you have an emotional connection, maybe it's just fine every time. But it's just so disheartening because that's just not a
lot of women's experience, like just because it is the person you have the emotional connection with, that doesn't mean your body just makes it easy for you every time. And
Declan (1:00:29)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Jenn (1:00:31)
that is the thing for Ryan is yes, he needs the emotional connection. And sometimes that means it's gonna be quicker to get to that point for him. And that's gonna be great. But other times it's still gonna take a while. And that's then the anxiety starts to spiral for him or whatever. So I appreciated that each sex scene in this book.
Of which it's not like there was a ton, but each one was different. And each time that they found pleasure together was different in how they got there. So it was showing that what pleasure looked like each time was still satisfying, but was a completely different way to do it. And
Declan (1:01:09)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:01:09)
even made it exciting and fun for Ryan and was assuring reassuring to him. And it was so sexy and just adorable at the same time in each situation.
Declan (1:01:20)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:01:21)
And that was so cool. I loved how she did that. It had me smiling so big. Like honestly, the the like this is where I was joking when I said Fabian was self-deprecating. Because Ryan's like, sometimes it takes me overly long time. He's like, Well, I have the opposite problems, this will be great. And I was like, And Ryan's like, what?
Declan (1:01:38)
Hmm.
Jenn (1:01:40)
And he's like, No, no, it'll be great. It was so cute.
Declan (1:01:43)
One king.
Jenn (1:01:46)
It was so cute. So I just love that she did that because it
you know, again, that's not my lived experience at all.
Declan (1:01:53)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:01:53)
I don't have that type of situation to worry about. But it's how it was spoken about and how it was entered into that just felt like that could be a kind of a universal discussion about how that works because you can be having sexual dysfunction with any type of sex you're having. And it was still done in a sexy and fun way. And when it didn't work, then
how it might be typically, Faiboon was still like, Whatever, I'm spending time with you. That's literally all I wanna do. So
Declan (1:02:23)
Yeah, I had a great time, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:02:26)
that just made it so much fun. So anyway, that's where my thoughts on it. So
Declan (1:02:28)
Yeah. And I like that Fabian
doesn't like cure it. Like he's not he doesn't cure it. It doesn't automatically
Jenn (1:02:34)
Exactly. That's what I mean.
Declan (1:02:36)
disappear. It's a ever present thing in Ryan's life that they just sort of learn to work around. And that's I think that's
Jenn (1:02:40)
Yep, it's gonna be
Declan (1:02:43)
more realistic. So I would say like then if I was to rank it, I'm gonna rank it like in almost like two like separately, in terms of like relevance to their relationship and to building the story and to
the influential and how the story unfolds, I think this is like a nine. In terms of like raunchy space,
Jenn (1:03:01)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Declan (1:03:04)
it's like it's like a six.
Jenn (1:03:06)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely agree. I think yeah. I so honestly the only note that I'd had around the sex scenes is that I wish and this sounds it's just difficult because of the length of this book is why I wish there had been I know this is so weird. I wish there had been like an epilogue sex scene to show.
How their comfort level is different, and maybe a reference to like Ryan maybe just going to do something for him. Just to reference that, like, hey, it still looks different every time we've been together all this amount of time
Declan (1:03:45)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:03:46)
and it's still different every time. Just to kind of round that off of like, it isn't just fixed. Like I know you just said that it isn't, but there was a reference at one point where they reference how they had sex multiple times in a day or something like that. And it's like, well, it'd be good to also reference a time where Ryan is like.
my meds were messing with me a little today, but we had fun and Fabian came
Declan (1:04:07)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:04:08)
three times or like just another reference to it can still be different every time. Just if I was being nitpicky.
Declan (1:04:11)
Yeah, sounds a sure bit of growth.
Jenn (1:04:14)
Yeah, just to be nitpicky because it was still very beautiful in how it is. But I think your like ratings for it are still really great because that is a huge part. And as you mentioned too, it makes Fabian so likable. And if you don't have him being just patient and gracious.
all of the struggles I have with his emotional not emotional intelligence with his the what do we call it we changed
Declan (1:04:41)
Which is sort of individualism.
Jenn (1:04:43)
individualism that's the word I would have had a much bigger problem with those because he's never like that about the sex if he was like that about the sex at all of course this doesn't even work I mean Rachel's not gonna have him be like that about the sex if he was like that about sex at all absolutely dunzo
Declan (1:05:01)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:05:02)
You're not even reading this book. Yeah.
Declan (1:05:02)
Feel likable. Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:05:04)
You're not in reading this book if he's like that. which I think will be a good segue to our other couple we're gonna talk about because she also does that in that.
Declan (1:05:15)
Mm.
Jenn (1:05:17)
which is why I think makes that book so charming. but yeah, I just love them. And yeah, as for actual like sexiness, I think a lot of it is technical in ways too, because we're talking about
How long it takes for things to happen and like, we're moving this. So that's not what makes it sexy. It's the emotional connection in it. And that's just a breath of fresh air in so many ways. And truly, when I was reading this book, one of the notes I made was that made it so special. Like that made
Declan (1:05:48)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:05:48)
it feel so special. And it made me like this book more than I thought I was going to. And it's something that when I was listening to reviews of this book, of course, people touched on the sex, but I didn't realize.
how much I was gonna resonate with that. As someone who's a romance reader, that I really do judge authors by how well they handle sex in the book. If it feels like they're just it in there. And
Declan (1:06:07)
Yeah. I could say.
Jenn (1:06:09)
Rachel Reed again and again proves to me that no matter how many sex scenes she puts in the book, they do matter.
Declan (1:06:16)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:06:18)
which is a big deal when we switch over to Shannon Ilya. So
Declan (1:06:23)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. She and Ilya are an interesting one, because
Jenn (1:06:28)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:06:29)
their relationship has sort of like the opposite trajectory of typical romance, which is you build up an emotional connection and then you get into the sex, but they're having to work in backwards where they're giving into their sort of sexual impulses first and then they are building the emotional connection through the different sex acts that they do. And as the book goes on, they become different.
Like it starts off as sort of quick, hot, secretive, lots of tension, and then they slowly meld into something a bit more emotionally charged as they get to know one another. And in different parts of the book, they have different purposes. So like I talked to Sylvan about this as well. Like the Las Vegas scene was all about Ilya trying to regain control of the situation through this sort of dumb sob sex scene.
And then you get towards the end of the cottage where it's like an expression of their love, it's like a comfort, it's a release, it's finally being able to be together and be one with each other. And so she's very good at using the sex in their book to tell the story of their relationship developing. and in that sense, I do think it has a really strong relevance. and she is
Jenn (1:07:44)
I see.
Declan (1:07:44)
very good at integrating it with the like
character journey of her characters. I think it really works.
Jenn (1:07:53)
Yes. And what's funny is I've heard some people who don't like the prologue to Heated Rivalry, that it starts with a hookup and then goes back to them being young again because well, let's be real, because the show doesn't start that way. And they're like, Well, why does the book
Declan (1:08:11)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:08:11)
start that way? I personally as the book having read the book now, after watching it, I understand more now because
I do think the show captures you faster. And so you understand that when you read the book, I think it's because it shows you like they're gonna be in deep. They're gonna be in real deep. Because the way that prologue ends is with them like, I know I'm gonna hook up with him again and I'm addicted to him. And when you then go back to them being 17, you're like, how are these two gonna end up like that? And so then
Declan (1:08:46)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:08:46)
when you start skipping time and watching them get to that, you're like, I it.
whereas if it had just started with that, without the same quick cuts that you get in the show, it takes
Declan (1:08:56)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:08:57)
you know, you might get I don't know, who's to say, who's to say? But it's very true. It's like that, you know, this is a a trope in romance, the the one night stand, the hookup leading to forever.
And also, I'm also a huge fan of this. My sister, this is how she met, my brother-in-law, was from
Declan (1:09:17)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:09:18)
a high school hookup and they've been married for 20 years and not because it was an accidental pregnancy, everybody out there judging out a baby for eight years, but they barely knew each other's name and they've been together 20 years. So I am a huge fan actually of this trope because I just think it's funny that people say, This is not how people get together. And I'm like, Yes, it is.
Declan (1:09:36)
Like, well, I have the perfect example.
Jenn (1:09:39)
It absolutely can happen. Is it popular? Does it have no, but it's real. is it two gay hockey players that happen? No, but I mean the trope of like we hooked up once and then we couldn't stop talking or seeing each other.
Declan (1:09:51)
Yeah, we were like in love from that point.
Jenn (1:09:53)
Yeah, like sometimes you you do. You have such amazing chemistry. There was something there, and you just can't help it, right? But anyway, sorry, back to the sex part. I love that you point out the Vegas scene because
That is so true. I Ilya. Ilya. It's funny too because I think that's the turning point too where he actually starts to realize that Shane's more serious than him. You know, like with that bathroom
Declan (1:10:24)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:10:24)
scene where he realizes how like, wow, he's like really upset about this. And if I don't break this up, he because I think he was seeing Shane be more aloof with him.
and then after things in Russia and things are escalating and his dad's sick, and also in the book, it's telling you more. He's saying, I'm gonna have to do something about my dad. Like, there's those lines where he's like, I'm gonna have to go back and I need to do something about it, and he's
Declan (1:10:49)
Mm.
Jenn (1:10:50)
trying to emotionally cut himself off. And Ilya's a very emotional man, and he's like, I can't keep doing things with this guy who isn't as emotionally in it as me. And he's wait, he might be as emotionally in it as me. Like, there's there's so many layers to it. And
Rachel has those in there. Like they're all
Declan (1:11:06)
Mm.
Jenn (1:11:07)
in there. And what these two dumb boys, and I'm saying that like that, don't realize is you can't just be whipping around BDSM acts and not be emotionally connected when you already are into the person because it's a very trustful situation. And because
Declan (1:11:25)
Yeah, exactly.
Jenn (1:11:27)
they're ignorant of that and not realizing it, you're needing more trust. It takes more trust.
For someone to let you smack them around like that. Not they were smacking him, but you guys, you know what I mean. It takes more trust for someone to let you do that them.
Declan (1:11:39)
Yeah. To make yourself vulnerable like that, yeah.
Jenn (1:11:43)
Yeah. So him trying to be impersonal in that way, and then seeing that Shane lets him do that to him, it has the opposite effect. It's so much more personal than that. And so that's why you're right. Like that unlocks a whole nother level for them. And then when
Now later on in their lives, we see it multiple times in their lives where when one
Declan (1:12:03)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:12:03)
of them is overwhelmed, it's like take me apart,
So I think that Rachel does amazing depictions of sex for Shane and Ilya. I really think she does. And people think there's too much of it. But then I also ask you, and I mean this without looking at the show, because yeah, Jacob Tierney cuts out a lot of sex scenes, people, people who think there's too much sex in the show. He cuts out a lot of them. He cuts
Declan (1:12:30)
Yeah, cut that a lot, yeah.
Jenn (1:12:32)
out
Ninety percent of okay? Truly. Especially out of the cottage. Okay. They show two. And there's literally like f ten of them. When I did
Declan (1:12:43)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:12:44)
my comparison the last episode, I was like, actually it cuts out about eight sex scenes from this. Okay. Uh-huh. but when you actually look at them all, I think when I did my comparison, I think I maybe found two that I would like cut out. If if and that's just me
Declan (1:13:00)
Mm
Jenn (1:13:00)
being a super
Cocky person acting like I could choose what would get cut out of there. Like each one of them is telling them something. It's showing how much more obsessed they are, how they can't let this person go. And if you cut them out, you're cutting out another touch point because the way that heated rivalry specifically is written is that she only shows the times that they see one another. And if you take them out,
Declan (1:13:22)
Yeah. And that's when they're having sex. Yeah.
Jenn (1:13:25)
yeah, yeah. And so if you take that out, you're like, well, now they don't see each other for for four years, if you take those out. So
The only ones you can really cut out were the ones in the cottage. And you
Declan (1:13:36)
Cottage. Yeah.
Jenn (1:13:37)
can just who they are. which is what happened. So anyway, I think that the depictions of sex are great. And I love that you also see the like the communications always there in their sex from the beginning, which in the beginning is mostly Ilya with what pitiful experience he does have. Don't let him fool you. It's not like he has that much either, but at least he has enough.
To not make it disastrous for them both.
Declan (1:14:01)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:14:03)
So I think the depictions of the sex are wonderful and I do think they're the raunchiest ones. So for raunchy-wise to the level, I would give them a 10
Declan (1:14:14)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:14:15)
because I think that there are more chapters than not that have it in there.
And for it being vital to the story and being important, I would probably give it like an eight and a half because it is their story. That's why
Declan (1:14:28)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:14:29)
I think for sure heated rivalry is an erotic romance. I've made that case multiple times. You cut the sex out, there's nothing left. Like it is.
Declan (1:14:36)
Yeah, because that's how they communicate
with each other and demonstrate their growth. Yeah.
Jenn (1:14:40)
Exactly. And r that's what erotic romance is. So it's a eight point five for it being that it it like that's what she wrote. That one is. So
Declan (1:14:48)
Yeah, yeah.
Jenn (1:14:50)
this is a long answer for that one.
Declan (1:14:53)
I think you're pretty on the ball. I think in terms of like how important it is for their characters, I think it is like an eight point five out of five, or not eight point five out ten. I do think that Rachel
Jenn (1:15:03)
Yeah.
Declan (1:15:03)
Reed creates a problem where she has to put a lot of sex in her book. And I think there is slight element of fatigue towards the end that I totally get. But because of the way
Jenn (1:15:15)
Yeah, yeah.
Declan (1:15:16)
that she has decided to write this story and structure it, and take on this plot structure, it has to be in.
Otherwise, sh like you said, like they're just not gonna talk, they're gonna disappear for four years, and then you'll have to jump back then whenever they decide to have an emotional moment. so I can see why I do think it creates a difficult situation for her to then try to keep writing it more. so there
Jenn (1:15:37)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (1:15:39)
is a little bit of fatigue, I think, towards the end. But in terms of like spiciness and things like that, I think yeah, it this is probably the spiciest of the books, except for maybe book five. so I would say it sits around like a nine.
Jenn (1:15:54)
Yeah.
Declan (1:15:57)
So when these guys
Jenn (1:15:56)
Yeah. Mm.
Declan (1:15:59)
start going at each other and it all shit hits the fan, how good are they at talking about it, getting it resolved, and moving on? Because I think this is where Shane and Ilya struggle the most, I think.
Jenn (1:16:23)
Well, I was gonna say one of my favourite Britishisms, I think they're all pretty rubbish at it. I think everybody's pretty rubbish at it. Yeah. Yeah.
Because here's the thing. What is cause who who resolves the conflict for Shane and Ilya? Scott, aren't you? So I'd say they're about a town.
Declan (1:16:46)
Itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an outside character. It's changes circumstance. It's like
neither of them are making like a sacrifice. They're just like the stars
Jenn (1:16:58)
Yeah.
Declan (1:16:58)
align. Like that is like
Jenn (1:17:00)
Between
Declan (1:17:01)
they're saved from having to make a decision towards the end of their book
Jenn (1:17:03)
Yeah, yeah.
Declan (1:17:04)
about whether or not obviously there's still an element of compromise for Ilya to like
risk yeah
Jenn (1:17:16)
Which means, yeah.
Declan (1:17:17)
to to take a risk on Shane and he does end up with a resolution in that sense. a lot in their first book gets un is like left unresolved. nothing is really sorted by the end of their book, which is deliberate because it's a duology. but in terms of like
Jenn (1:17:34)
Yeah. But did she ever
plan to do that though? I just want to throw that out there. Did she ever plan to resolve that?
Declan (1:17:44)
Mm.
Jenn (1:17:46)
That sorry to like 'cause based on you know, obviously I didn't come to this till the long game was done. But
Declan (1:17:51)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:17:53)
based on what I've read in her things, like she only wrote them because Shane and Illya wouldn't shut up in her head, which I mean completely understand. She's like because of where they pop up in the other stories, like all these other stories take place like after they're you know I don't know anyway.
Declan (1:18:08)
Yeah. I
because it was so unfinished, I always felt that she intended to return to them eventually. but you're right, like not nothing is resolved by the end of their book. The major issue of Shane not being able to come out, of Ilya and Shane's relationship being kept secret, the fact that
Ilya is having to upend his life and move in with Shane. Ilya typically is the one to resolve the conflicts, I find. or rather the like immediate issue or the immediate fight. I don't tend to find that Shane in this book first is the one to sort of like resolve the problem, though Ilya often does create them. yeah, they they both suck at it.
Jenn (1:19:05)
Who who helps him resolve conflict?
Declan (1:19:07)
They only get caught in the cottage as well because of Shane's dad?
Jenn (1:19:10)
Exactly. They don't resolve okay, well there's our answer. We'll go we'll go to that. I give them a a okay, where's where they what are some like conflict conversations they have where actually stuff happens? Like when Shane says I'm gay, that one they actually discuss. So there's that one. And then when they actually
Declan (1:19:28)
But like was that ever a conflict for Alien?
Jenn (1:19:30)
love you. well I know. I'm trying I'm looking for crumbs here, friend. I'm looking for
Declan (1:19:33)
You you know.
Jenn (1:19:35)
crumbs.
Because all of it is they're being confronted by other people. And I mean not even like actual people, like they're confronted by the actions of other people, force them into things. So and I yeah. Yeah.
Declan (1:19:41)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, they're they're they seem reactive rather than proactive
in resolving their problems. Like Yeah, that has to be because they are only ever pushed
Jenn (1:19:54)
That's gotta be a theme in unrivaled. That's gotta be a theme in unrivaled.
Declan (1:19:59)
into like they're pushed to resolve the problem because some outside thing has happened that forces them to address it, which is a big problem in a
relationship because the relationships just don't work like that. Like when you have fights, you need to sort it out. Otherwise it sits unresolved. You can't rely on someone outside coming in and fixing it for you or forcing
Jenn (1:20:21)
Yeah.
Declan (1:20:22)
you to fix it eventually. Neither of them are very proactive at resolving issues. like how many times has Shane and Aleia like apologised to one another?
Jenn (1:20:34)
in Heather Rivalry, I heard you guys
had another guest on you said once avoidant, the avoidant personality type you called
Declan (1:20:41)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:20:42)
that's exactly what they do. They avo specifically Shane, but I mean Ilya doesn't
Declan (1:20:45)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:20:46)
try yeah. I mean Ilya doesn't really push it either because he wants it keeping with Shane and it's like, Well, I'll see him again in six months, so what does it matter? We'll be over it by then or not and they wait
Declan (1:20:56)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:20:57)
a bit and then I starts texting him again and then then they hook up again.
Declan (1:21:01)
Yeah. But there's no apology, there's no addressing
of what happened, it's just just ignore it, you know.
Jenn (1:21:05)
Yeah, you just ignore it. Yeah. And
yeah, yeah. And that is the in my opinion, not to be sexist, but that is the part that is very about men, in my opinion. it only is, but I'm just saying that's more
Declan (1:21:16)
I I would agree with you, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I do think it
is more prevalent in men though that rather than like address it and talk it out and get it fully resolved, it's always like, can we just like gloss over this and move on? And like why are we still talking about this? Like why is this still a problem? It's like 'cause we never actually addressed it. You never even said sorry. Like that
Jenn (1:21:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (1:21:41)
it's important for people to be able to hear that and to understand that.
you know, it's heartfelt and it was meaningful and that I cared that I did hurt you and I want to fix it.
Jenn (1:21:52)
Yeah.
Declan (1:21:52)
so yeah, I think they they struggle. I w honestly I think their conflict resolution is that shit. I would put them at like a two or a three both.
Jenn (1:22:00)
Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say twos.
I think that will be a theme in Unrivaled. Because again, I don't think Rachel is dumb. People talk down to her so much. She is very s intelligent woman. And I think that is the arc of their characters.
Declan (1:22:14)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:22:14)
Why it's like not done. Like there is the arc to that.
And I hope they get better at conflict resolution, especially
Declan (1:22:20)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:22:21)
for.
where they're gonna be. But yes, I would for what we know of them here, I would give them a two. for the other guys, where we actually get to see a full arc of their story. From for like let's consider it a four.
Declan (1:22:34)
Yeah. Yeah, we get the complete thing, yeah.
Jenn (1:22:37)
Yeah, I would say for conflict resolution, honestly
Okay, again, let me try to put this at a different scale then. That's what's hard is to like.
Declan (1:22:49)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:22:49)
I would probably give them like a seven or an eight. Like I think it's good the compromise that gets put forward. Because I feel like I kind of gotta look at him as a couple. Because even though it's Ryan who puts force a solution where, as we said, it feels like he kind of gives up so much.
Declan (1:23:05)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:23:06)
It's a good choice for him. Like I don't think he would have fully made the choice of leave. Like he was getting there anyway. It's just
Declan (1:23:13)
Yeah, it was gonna happen.
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:23:15)
And and Fabian felt bad about how he did it and he was willing to be like, okay, okay, we didn't have to fully go to that. And they were discussing it. It's just that Ryan
Declan (1:23:22)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:23:22)
was like, No, I know you gave it as that, but like it is a good choice for me to be kind.
Declan (1:23:27)
Mm. Yeah.
Jenn (1:23:29)
And it's healthier for me too. I just, you know, it wasn't great how he dropped it. So you know, and we do drop things when we're upset or we're panicked or we're hurt. So
Declan (1:23:38)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:23:41)
That's the thing too, is like it felt selfish and out of pocket for how Fabian did it, but he also just sees how much it's hurting Ryan. And he doesn't think he continue, he can continue to watch Ryan be hurt.
Declan (1:23:52)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:23:53)
And he panicked about him all the time. So he's not, again, it isn't only individualism. He is
Declan (1:23:58)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:23:58)
thinking about Ryan too. He just in his mind is also thinking about how it affects him of watching him be hurt.
Declan (1:24:04)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:24:05)
But he's also seen Ryan be hurt.
And he's like, You're in pain, honey. Like, I don't want to see you in pain all the time. Like, it's bad.
Declan (1:24:10)
Right.
Jenn (1:24:12)
So I give them a good. Like they talked it through.
Declan (1:24:14)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:24:15)
It's just I wish you wouldn't have broken up with him as the ultimate. Like that's the part where he's kind of a
Declan (1:24:19)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm.
Jenn (1:24:22)
little less than that. Why it's not higher. So I give him kind of like a seven and eight and more like the eights for like Ryan and
Declan (1:24:30)
Mm, yeah.
I think I also like the way that Fabian resolves it, like how the resolution actually happens. Like Fabian goes to a friend, he's talking about it, and friend goes, Why did you do that? Like, who are
Jenn (1:24:41)
Yes. Yes.
Declan (1:24:43)
you to go and tell him that he is like addicted to this or what you assumed he had a problem? So what do you do? You abandon him. And Fabian's like,
Jenn (1:24:46)
Exactly.
Declan (1:24:51)
my god, like you're so right. Fabian admits that he's wrong, which is something Shane
Jenn (1:24:57)
Yes, okay.
Declan (1:24:58)
and Ilya can't do.
Neither of them do it. They never admit that they're like fully wrong in any instance. They don't apologize to each other. And so Yeah. We're waiting
Jenn (1:25:04)
And he did rivalry.
Declan (1:25:08)
we're waiting for Unrivaled, hopefully.
Fabian Dawes then approach Ryan and he goes there with the apology with to be like, I'm so sorry, I never meant to like force you into this position and Ryan says, You are
Jenn (1:25:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (1:25:21)
right. Like Ryan is also able to acknowledge the fact that Fabian has a point.
He does have a point that this is not healthy for him and that while he may not be addicted to prescription drugs right now, like he is on a pathway that could very easily lead him down that. I think Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He could tell that he's in pain. Like he's he's suffering and he's still
Jenn (1:25:38)
Yes. He feels his body given out. He is thirty and yeah, very true. Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:25:45)
pushing himself beyond what he is really physically should be. and so it's an acknowledgement of where they both went wrong. Like
Ryan says, Yes, you do have a point. I can admit that.
Jenn (1:25:54)
Yeah. Yeah. Very much.
Declan (1:25:59)
I may not have liked the way that you delivered it. And I think you're making maybe a bit more about yourself, but ultimately you're not wrong. And I can admit that. And Fabian can say, You're right. I shouldn't have robbed you of your autonomy in that situation. I should have been more understanding. I should have offered support instead of walking away. and they both
Jenn (1:26:22)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (1:26:23)
have a mature conversation about it and they resolve it. Like they apologize and they they now have
Jenn (1:26:27)
And he's
Declan (1:26:29)
a future together where they are both sort of able to set that chapter behind and move on because they addressed it. Which
Jenn (1:26:37)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (1:26:39)
yeah, that's like a a an eight for both. An eight for both. I think there could be a bit, you know, there's other parts of the book where I think Ryan's a bit hesitant about saying certain things because of his anxiety and Fabian is
being Fabian, but I think generally about an eight, yeah, for both.
Jenn (1:26:58)
The the last little piece of that is you can see the influence Fabian's had on Ryan by the end of that because he's more confident when they come back to it. And that's something really beautiful because in that resolution conversation, you can
Declan (1:27:13)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:27:13)
see how more confident Ryan is in having it because he's like, I know that Fabian loves me. and like we can be okay because of that. Like
He isn't like begging for the love of it. Like he really did make this decision because it was best for him, not just to get Fabian back. And he's also finding some things that he can do if he'd be without hockey. Cause that was a thing too. He had no confidence that he could do anything, you know? And
Declan (1:27:43)
Mm.
Jenn (1:27:44)
like, no, there are things that I can do outside of hockey. And that was part of what would be important is he'd like, Well, what would I be without hockey? And how could I support a family or or a partner or anything?
Declan (1:27:55)
Mm-hmm.
Jenn (1:27:56)
and he's finding those parts. So
Declan (1:27:59)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:27:59)
and he has that confidence because Fabian, he's seen Fabian do it, and he's like, I can do that.
Declan (1:28:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Well, we are on to our final one.
Jenn (1:28:10)
Right.
Declan (1:28:11)
And yeah, this one is do we think that both of these couples will be together forever?
Jenn (1:28:21)
Well, I think this one's easy.
Declan (1:28:22)
Interesting. Yeah.
Jenn (1:28:25)
I think this one's easy.
Declan (1:28:27)
I think
yeah, Shane and Ilya are like I don't think they're finding a love like that again. I think this is their their soulmate love. I think yeah,
Jenn (1:28:38)
Mm-hmm. Star cross lovers forever.
Declan (1:28:41)
despite the issues, despite the problems, they're gonna work through it. They have an article
Jenn (1:28:47)
Yeah.
Declan (1:28:47)
books.
Jenn (1:28:50)
Yeah.
Declan (1:28:50)
And yeah, I think this is them. yeah.
Jenn (1:28:53)
Ugh They're so
they're so great. They're so
Declan (1:28:57)
It's pretty low.
Jenn (1:28:59)
I just love them so
much. They're so messy and wonderful and just love
Declan (1:29:03)
Yeah, they
just need need they just need to pull together. Pull together guys, come on.
Jenn (1:29:11)
Like the way I like
I can't like fully put into words like with each new month we hit that we're like a month closer to more episodes of them. Like I honestly have to
Declan (1:29:26)
Yeah. Or another book. Yeah.
Jenn (1:29:29)
chill. Well, b yeah, both things. The show's coming first, so that's what I'm thinking about. But honestly, another book I'm also so excited about. But as y'all know around here, I'm an avid fanfiction reader. So I haven't stopped reading books about Shane and Nilia, by the way. I
Declan (1:29:42)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:29:43)
know they're all made up, but I'm reading five books about them.
Declan (1:29:45)
Ha ha
Jenn (1:29:46)
But to have more like words being spoken out loud that they've say, like I love them so much, you guys. It's not healthy.
Declan (1:29:55)
Mm. Yeah.
Jenn (1:29:57)
I don't care. I don't care. It's not healthy. They're so great. And honestly, like Rachel Reed just impresses me so much because I reread the books and I'm like, there's still so much in her books, too.
Declan (1:30:11)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:30:11)
Like, they're really romantic. They're really funny.
Fucking romantic guys, Okay, it's romantic as shit, man. It's so good. Like,
Declan (1:30:16)
Yeah. The yearning is is overwhelming. So much yearning.
Jenn (1:30:24)
like, yeah, it's disgusting and beautiful at the same time,
Declan (1:30:28)
Yeah. I think there's no doubt with them too. Ryan and Fabian. Yeah.
Jenn (1:30:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Declan (1:30:34)
Yeah. They just they work too well together. They just complement each other so well and
Jenn (1:30:39)
They do they do.
Declan (1:30:41)
I just see that this is Ryan's safe space and that he is just
Jenn (1:30:45)
Yeah.
Declan (1:30:45)
Yeah. And the lessons have been learned. The two of them really don't have anything to be arguing about at this point. They have nothing in their way.
Jenn (1:30:52)
I literally
just see I see Ryan for the next you know however many years like setting up Fabian's like speakers and setting up his equipment for him and then just standing off to the side just staring
Declan (1:31:05)
Yeah, good.
Jenn (1:31:06)
at him lovingly the whole time and then just being like that's my man out there the whole time and
Declan (1:31:13)
Maybe
Jenn (1:31:14)
driving driving his like tour van wherever they're going, whatever like
Declan (1:31:19)
Being his bodyguard.
Jenn (1:31:22)
That's right.
You're so cute. I just love it. So
Declan (1:31:25)
Yeah.
Jenn (1:31:25)
yeah, they were as I said, like I was honestly surprised how cute it would be. And I think that impression that I wouldn't like it came from other people. I shouldn't just trust other
Declan (1:31:35)
Mm.
Jenn (1:31:36)
people's opinions. I don't know. And again, it's not that anyone was bad. It's just so many people just compare it directly with the other ones. And that's not how I was going into
Declan (1:31:46)
Mm.
Jenn (1:31:46)
it. So I was able to really enjoy myself and
I meant to tell you this as a surprise, but I did go by Common Goal because I was like, well, I
Declan (1:31:56)
Along.
Jenn (1:31:57)
guess I better keep going. Because I guess Eric and Kyle are up next. Because I really do want to read role model. Have that one on my Kindle. But I was like, you know, if you're gonna read Role Model, I better just read Common Goal.
Declan (1:32:09)
Yeah, just three common goal, yeah, yeah.
Jenn (1:32:11)
I can't skip it. So
And I'm excited because I haven't heard the best things about this one either. But I'm like, I bet there'll be some fun in there for me too. So
Declan (1:32:20)
There is fun elements of that book.
So I'm I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of that one actually. I think that's us.
Jenn (1:32:29)
Yeah, I think that's
Declan (1:32:30)
So that is all the time we have for today. I think this is a Storm of Tough guy. Thank you so much for joining us, Jen. Thank you again. I've had such a fun discussion with you. And honestly, the idea for this one came out of nowhere. It just hit me today, and I was like, this is actually such an interesting idea. I would like to like go back and do this again with the other books too, as we
progress through them as me and Sullivan read them too. I figured that'd be really fun. where will people find you? On your socials, where can they watch your content?
Jenn (1:33:05)
Yes, I am the Book Refuge on Instagram and on YouTube. That's me. Those are my main two platforms. I do try to stay away from TikTok because otherwise I lose my soul to the scroll over there. But yeah, Instagram. I know, I know I'm so sorry. But I am on Instagram
Declan (1:33:21)
Yeah, I
Jenn (1:33:23)
and YouTube.
Declan (1:33:26)
I am all consumed
by TikTok. It's terrible. Like I don't know how much my life I've wasted so far. I'll find out when it's flashing before my eyes, the amount of reels I went through. But
Jenn (1:33:36)
I mean Instagram sucks me in enough, so
Declan (1:33:41)
also media has ruined us all. But it's helped us at all here, anyway. Well, as for us though, just a reminder guys that I also do have a fable. me and Sylvan have started a book club there. It's the long game, but
Club and there we are currently done, the Heat Rivory series, but you can go back and still chat about it and talk to the others about it. There's plenty of rooms and discussions going on. So do keep an eye on that. Make sure you join that. Also like, comment, subscribe and share this around if you wish. And thank you so much for joining us.