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On today's episode host, Mark Titus and Joel talk about Joel's work as a film producer and activist. Joel's award-winning film, Sonic Sea tackles the inordinate amount of noise under the water in our oceans that are literally killing marine life, like whales. Joel and Mark also discuss Joel's philosophy and practice in going the distance for huge environmental battles like defending Bristol Bay from the proposed Pebble Mine.
NRDC’s principal institutional representative in the West, Joel Reynolds joined the organization as a senior attorney in 1990, after a decade with the Center for Law in the Public Interest and the Western Center on Law and Poverty, both in Los Angeles. Since 1980, he has specialized in complex law-reform litigation, arguing cases on behalf of environmental and community groups at all levels of the federal courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court. He has also led several of NRDC’s largest campaigns: to preserve the birthing lagoon of gray whales in Baja California; to protect the California State Park at San Onofre; to reduce underwater noise pollution that threatens ocean wildlife; and, most recently, to halt the construction of the environmentally destructive Pebble Mine in Alaska’s Bristol Bay. He has twice been selected California Attorney of the Year in the environmental category. From 1986 to 1990, Reynolds was an adjunct professor at the University of Southern California Law Center. Since 2012, he has served as chair of the Tejon Ranch Conservancy, one of California’s largest land trusts. His articles and editorials appear frequently in the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, the Christian Science Monitor, the Huffington Post, and other major media outlets. A graduate of Columbia Law School in 1978, Reynolds is based in Santa Monica.
Follow Joel's work and get involved at NRDC.
Save What You Love with Mark Titus:
NRDC’s principal institutional representative in the West, Joel Reynolds joined the organization as a senior attorney in 1990, after a decade with the Center for Law in the Public Interest and the Western Center on Law and Poverty, both in Los Angeles. Since 1980, he has specialized in complex law-reform litigation, arguing cases on behalf of environmental and community groups at all levels of the federal courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court. He has also led several of NRDC’s largest campaigns: to preserve the birthing lagoon of gray whales in Baja California; to protect the California State Park at San Onofre; to reduce underwater noise pollution that threatens ocean wildlife; and, most recently, to halt the construction of the environmentally destructive Pebble Mine in Alaska’s Bristol Bay. He has twice been selected California Attorney of the Year in the environmental category. From 1986 to 1990, Reynolds was an adjunct professor at the University of Southern California Law Center. Since 2012, he has served as chair of the Tejon Ranch Conservancy, one of California’s largest land trusts. His articles and editorials appear frequently in the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, the Christian Science Monitor, the Huffington Post, and other major media outlets. A graduate of Columbia Law School in 1978, Reynolds is based in Santa Monica.
Follow Joel's work and get involved at NRDC.
Save What You Love with Mark Titus:
Produced: Tyler White
Edited: Patrick Troll
Music: Whiskey Class
Instagram: @savewhatyoulovepodcast
Website: savewhatyoulove.evaswild.com
Support wild salmon at evaswild.com
Creators & Guests
Host
Mark Titus
Mark Titus is the creator of Eva’s Wild and director of the award winning films, The Breach and The Wild. He’s currently working on a third film in his salmon trilogy, The Turn. In early 2021, Mark launched his podcast, Save What You Love, interviewing exceptional people devoting their lives in ways big and small to the protection of things they love. Through his storytelling, Mark Titus carries the message that humanity has an inherent need for wilderness and to fulfill that need we have a calling to protect wild places and wild things.
Guest
Joel Reynolds
Joel Reynolds is the Western Director of the Natural Resources Defense Council. He has also led several of NRDC’s largest campaigns: to preserve the birthing lagoon of gray whales in Baja California; to protect the California State Park at San Onofre; to reduce underwater noise pollution that threatens ocean wildlife; and, most recently, to halt the construction of the environmentally destructive Pebble Mine in Alaska’s Bristol Bay.
What is Save What You Love with Mark Titus?
Wild salmon give their very lives so that life itself can continue. They are the inspiration for each episode asking change-makers in this world what they are doing to save the things they love most. Join filmmaker, Mark Titus as we connect with extraordinary humans saving what they love through radical compassion and meaningful action. Visit evaswild.com for more information.
00:00:00:07 - 00:00:29:19
Mark Titus
Welcome to the Save What You Love podcast. I'm your host, Mark Titus. Today I get to sit down with Joel Reynolds. Joel is the Western director for the NRDC, the Natural Resources Defense Council, and has been a champion for Bristol Bay for the last 20 years. Right in the midst of all of the efforts to the coalition with the United Tribes of Bristol Bay, Salmon State, and all the others who have been working tirelessly to protect this sacred place for future generations.
00:00:29:21 - 00:00:53:07
Mark Titus
Joel and I also connected on a level as a filmmaker. He is a producer on a film called Sonic. See, it came out in 2017. It's a powerful documentary about what's going on under the surface of our oceans waters and the noise that's literally killing whales. This is a fascinating conversation with a great man. I hope you enjoy it.
00:00:53:07 - 00:01:19:15
Mark Titus
And if you're looking for some way to take action for Bristol Bay, head on over to evaswild.com forward slash action or just evaswild.com and click the action button once you're there. That's the word save spelled backwards, wild dot com and tell the EPA that it is time to exercise their authority right now using the flora for sea clean water act and veto the Pebble Mine once and for all.
00:01:19:17 - 00:01:24:12
Mark Titus
Thanks for listening this week. I hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see you down the trail.
00:01:24:14 - 00:02:01:13
Music
How do you save what you love?
When the world is burning down?
How do you save what you love?
When pushes come to shove.
How do you say what you love?
When things are upside down.
How do you say what you love?
When times are getting tough.
00:02:01:15 - 00:02:06:08
Mark Titus
Joel Reynolds, welcome. Where are you joining us from today?
00:02:06:09 - 00:02:10:14
Joel Reynolds
Good morning, Mark. I'm in Santa Monica this morning.
00:02:10:16 - 00:02:14:23
Mark Titus
Outstanding. What's it doing down there today? It's raining cats and dogs up here in Seattle.
00:02:15:01 - 00:02:22:10
Joel Reynolds
It's all it's overcast. We have a big marine layer. We haven't seen the sun in about four days. So usual.
00:02:22:12 - 00:02:48:05
Mark Titus
Well, this is usual, though. As we know, things are changing rapidly in terms of our West Coast climate. And we're going to talk about that in a little bit. But I would love to know and I know all of us here listening to the show would love to know your story. How did you come into this work that you do?
00:02:48:07 - 00:03:18:04
Joel Reynolds
I grew up in the probably the smallest city in the entire country, a place called Riverside, California, about 60 miles east of Los Angeles. All the air pollution generated in the south coast basin ends up there. And growing up, it was it was a tough place to be. Certainly in the summer, I remember not being able to take a deep breath at the end of the day without it feeling somebody was sticking a knife in my lungs.
00:03:18:04 - 00:03:51:03
Joel Reynolds
So that that really elevated my understanding of the environment from a young age. I went to college and majored in music and political science, but eventually got interested in in the law. Not because I'm so fascinated by the legal process. I'm not I'm very ideological. It's a tool that I have always found effective to vindicate interests that I'm sympathetic with.
00:03:51:05 - 00:04:13:18
Joel Reynolds
And I've done that now for about 40 years. When I got out of law school, I didn't know exactly what kind of law I wanted to practice. I just knew which side of the table I wanted to be on. And early on, I was asked to begin doing work on environmental cases. And the more I did that, the more people wanted me to do it.
00:04:13:20 - 00:04:48:07
Joel Reynolds
I've done a wide range of litigation over the years from wildlife to in environmental justice to transportation, to toxics at all levels of the federal courts and state courts in California. So I've been with NRDC since 1990. It's over 30 years now. And doing primarily litigation, but in recent years focusing on large campaigns like the one we're going to talk about this morning.
00:04:48:09 - 00:04:49:18
Joel Reynolds
Absolutely.
00:04:49:20 - 00:05:10:14
Mark Titus
So as as we know, you know, there's a lot a lot of glory in all that. But it's so much work to get up every day and keep going forward on things that are decidedly difficult to continue to roll up the hill. What keeps you going every day?
00:05:10:16 - 00:05:46:23
Joel Reynolds
That's a great question. I've often said that if you can't can't take a loss every now and then, you can't do this kind of work. It's it's very tough. The deck is stacked against the good guys. It's stacked against communities. It's stacked against, in particular, low income communities, indigenous populations like the communities of Bristol Bay. But what's kept me going, I would say, every single day for all these decades, is that I really like what I do.
00:05:47:01 - 00:06:17:20
Joel Reynolds
I my focus is fueled by outrage. I get angry at things that are motivated by things that I love. And that's always been the case. So I think I can fairly say that there's never been one day in all these decades that I haven't been able to go to work and do things that I agree with, and that that means a great deal to me.
00:06:17:22 - 00:06:43:16
Mark Titus
We're going to get into Bristol Bay, and anybody that's familiar with this show knows we talk about it frequently. Anybody familiar with my work knows we talk about it frequently. But I'm also interested in some of the other projects that you've championed. You know, the power of story as a producer on a film called Sonic Sea. It's really powerful film and it's about human noise pummeling our oceans.
00:06:43:18 - 00:06:49:09
Mark Titus
How did that project come to be and what was that experience like working on that film?
00:06:49:11 - 00:07:17:23
Joel Reynolds
Well, that's a long story, which you can probably do a separate podcast on. But back in the early 1990s, I did a lawsuit against the US Navy focusing on a five year program of underwater explosives testing off the Southern California coast, literally in the Channel Islands, one of the richest areas of the waters of the continental United States in terms of biological resources.
00:07:17:23 - 00:07:54:05
Joel Reynolds
They did it without an environmental impact statement. It was the wrong place. And we tried to settle it with the Navy because that's a tough adversary in any context, including the federal court. But that was unsuccessful. So we filed a lawsuit, got an injunction blocking the whole program, which was called ship shock involved, dropping £10,000 explosives off of these warships to test their electrical systems and simulate war games before they were deployed to the to the Far East.
00:07:54:07 - 00:08:29:15
Joel Reynolds
And but there's 35 species of marine mammals in this area from blue whales all the way down to harbor porpoises. And, you know, it seemed like a very, very questionable place to do that kind of work. Anyway, we won that case in the in the process, I learned about some top secret Navy programs using very intense sound sonar systems that are used to detect submarines around the globe.
00:08:29:17 - 00:09:01:14
Joel Reynolds
And the more I got into this, the more I realized that it was entirely unregulated, it was unpermitted. There was no environmental review of any kind. And there were a lot of consequences because these sonar systems are capable of generating noise as loud as human. Human beings can generate noise. And it's been documented now many, many times that mass strandings of whales were the result of testing and training with these systems in places or times of year when it was the wrong thing to do.
00:09:01:16 - 00:09:36:14
Joel Reynolds
And I have litigated against the US Navy over and over again, I would say very successfully, and one of the products of this work was a movie called Sonic Sea, and it is we sold it to Discovery Channel, a 60 minutes long at won two Emmys, including Outstanding Nature Documentary in 2017. It's a it's a very good piece of work describing the history of that litigation and the broader problem of anthropogenic noise and the you and the oceans.
00:09:36:16 - 00:10:07:23
Mark Titus
You don't shy away from entangling with large opponents. The U.S. Navy certainly is about as big as it gets, but as we know, at least on its outside and its its eye, in its ideal, a giant mining company would be a formidable so as well. And for our listeners who are joining us, who don't know about the proposed Pebble Mine.
00:10:08:01 - 00:10:16:08
Mark Titus
Can you give us a thumbnail sketch on what that project is and what's at stake in Bristol Bay?
00:10:16:10 - 00:10:48:04
Joel Reynolds
So the Pebble Mine is a proposed copper and gold open pit mine that would be sited literally at the headwaters of the world's greatest wild salmon fishery in southwest Alaska. That's the Bristol Bay wild salmon fishery. It is the literally the Fort Knox of salmon on Earth. This summer alone, it generated 66 million fish far beyond any other salmon fishery in the world.
00:10:48:04 - 00:11:17:19
Joel Reynolds
It generates 50% of all the world's sockeye salmon. And this is an area that a consortium of mining companies that included Anglo American, Rio Tinto, Mitsubishi Corporation and a small Canadian backed exploration company called Northern Dynasty Minerals. This this partnership proposed to build this in the headwaters over the opposition of over 80% of the people who lived in the Bristol Bay region.
00:11:17:21 - 00:11:50:14
Joel Reynolds
Tribal communities, fishermen and women whose entire way of life is based on that salmon ecosystem. The Bristol Bay watershed is one of the most perfectly functioning ecosystem farms on earth, naturally, socially, culturally and economically. The fishery generates $2.2 billion a year in revenue. Tens of thousands of jobs. And as I said, the tribes don't want it. They don't need it.
00:11:50:15 - 00:12:37:04
Joel Reynolds
They don't want it. And they fought it relentlessly for a very long time. And yet this is the area that this partnership has proposed to build this mine. Now, I say partnership. It's not a partnership anymore. All the big mining companies have walked away. Anglo American, Rio Tinto and Mitsubishi, the only company left, is a small Canadian company called Northern Dynasty Minerals that doesn't have the assets to proceed but is hoping somehow to get legal authority to build it and then attract some some other large mining company that it hasn't been paying attention to buy them out and take it over and enrich their shareholders.
00:12:37:06 - 00:13:13:21
Mark Titus
So if you've seen the breach in the wild, the two documentaries that I've done and of phenomenal red gold that came before those two folks out there, you know, kind of what's going on with with Bristol Bay here, it is always changing. It's always in flux. And Joel, can you tell us where we are with this abomination, as it were, in Bristol Bay at this moment and what what we need to do moving forward here in the months to come?
00:13:13:23 - 00:13:53:16
Joel Reynolds
Sure. Simple answer is we're in a pretty good place today compared to where we've been over the past several decades. In fact, the last year has been the most remarkable period of progress that one ever could have imagined in fighting this this project in August. Or I would say late July 2020, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers approved an environmental impact statement for the project that made it appear, as everyone expected, that the Trump administration would issue a federal permit for this project.
00:13:53:18 - 00:14:24:22
Joel Reynolds
But as a result of an amazing series of events last fall, by the time we got to Thanksgiving everything and turned around and the day before Thanksgiving, the Army Corps actually denied the permit to the company. The company was was stunned. I mean, they they never foresaw that under the Trump administration, one of the most anti-environmental presidencies in US history, that they would not get the permit.
00:14:25:00 - 00:14:58:17
Joel Reynolds
And in fact, I think they felt they had the assurances from the leadership in the administration that they were going to get it. But they didn't. And so that has provided a temporary respite in the the progress of the Pebble Mine. And another thing that happened last fall is Trump wasn't reelected. He's been replaced now by by Joe Biden, who last fall also came out publicly and said, I'm against the Pebble Mine.
00:14:58:22 - 00:15:24:11
Joel Reynolds
I don't think the Bristol Bay watershed is any place for for large scale mining. And so he appointed Michael Regan to be administrator of the EPA. Mr. Regan has been very clear in his public statements that he believes Bristol Bay is an area that needs to be protected. He has assured the tribes that that he intends to do precisely that.
00:15:24:13 - 00:15:59:18
Joel Reynolds
And and the tribes have formally petitioned the EPA to restart a process begun under the Obama administration, using very rarely used authority of the agency called Section 404c of the Clean Water Act to protect the entire region. It's an authority that isn't dependent on a permit application or denying an application. As I described with the Army Corps of Engineers, which which can receive many, many applications over many years.
00:15:59:18 - 00:16:29:02
Joel Reynolds
And there's no assurance that the Army Corps of Engineers is going to say no, as it did to Pebble last fall. But the EPA has the authority to prohibit or restrict any project or activity that threatens protected water resources under that statute. So the tribes of Bristol Bay have asked EPA to invoke that authority over the last two months in formal legal proceedings.
00:16:29:02 - 00:17:01:15
Joel Reynolds
The agency has agreed to do just that. And in fact, last Friday, the court order ordered that the efforts by the Trump administration to move to promote the project and prevent 404 sea authority from being used were were rescinded. And she remanded the entire process back to the agency to reinstate the four or four separate sets that had been derailed by the Trump administration.
00:17:01:17 - 00:17:23:15
Joel Reynolds
And that process is now set to move forward. The tribes have asked the agency to complete it before the next fishing season starts in June of 2022. We believe the agency can meet that schedule and we're determined to do everything possible to help them do exactly that.
00:17:23:16 - 00:17:41:16
Mark Titus
This does sound really good, and I agree. It feels like we're in the best place we've been in. I've been involved in this fight for going on 12 years. I know you've been involved for much longer.
00:17:41:18 - 00:18:15:02
Mark Titus
Those who have been involved have this. I think, knock on wood, kind of a sense of, hey, we've we've seen this before. We had eight years under Obama to get this done. And then we had a political shift and and things went sideways. It looks pretty good, you know, coming into 2022 and provided you know, provided the EPA does its job and follows through and exercises its authority under the 404c and it gets a veto, what happens then?
00:18:15:02 - 00:18:28:16
Mark Titus
What we're. Where do we go from there? Because my understanding is that that still doesn't completely protect this region in perpetuity. Or am I wrong about that?
00:18:28:18 - 00:18:52:22
Joel Reynolds
So we take it one step at a time and we try not to get ahead of ourselves. The foreign policy authority has been used by EPA only about a dozen times in the more than 40 year history of the Clean Water Act. So it's actually 50 years now. And and so for the agency to take that action with respect to Bristol Bay is a very significant thing.
00:18:52:22 - 00:19:16:07
Joel Reynolds
The reason the agency hasn't used it very often is because it's difficult to use. It's a it's a high threshold. And but we believe that the situation in Bristol Bay that's been posed by the Pebble Mine is precisely the kind of circumstance where it should be used. It's not the Pebble Mine. It'll be some other mine from some other mining company.
00:19:16:07 - 00:19:47:07
Joel Reynolds
And there's a whole bunch of claims that have been staked out there and the holders of those claims have been watching the process for the Pebble Mine, because once that one goes in, if it goes in all the infrastructure that's associated with with building and operating a mine is then in place in that very remote, pristine area. I mean, roads, pipelines, fossil fuel supplies, major port, all of these things would be associated with that, that mine.
00:19:47:07 - 00:20:17:08
Joel Reynolds
But if we can stop Pebble and if we can get EPA to finalize a determination portion of safeguards to prevent or prevent large scale mining in the area, that is going to be a major step towards lasting protection for the region. Is it possible that some future administration that was determined on environmental destruction or this national treasure could overturn it?
00:20:17:14 - 00:20:53:03
Joel Reynolds
It's it is possible. And so we also believe that legislative action is necessary. Senator Murkowski, the senior senator from Alaska, has made very clear that it's her intention to propose litigation that would provide permanent protection for that above and beyond, what, 404c could provide. And the the people of Bristol Bay, the communities of Bristol Bay, the tribes, the fishermen have expressed their support and intend to cooperate with that that effort.
00:20:53:03 - 00:21:20:02
Joel Reynolds
So we're hopeful that that that's going to move forward as well. One of the interesting things is, you know, there are a lot of different points of view in Bristol Bay about a lot of things. But the one issue where where people are unified to an exceptional degree and have been for a long time is on the need to protect the fishery because it is the salmon are there are life in Bristol Bay.
00:21:20:04 - 00:22:16:22
Joel Reynolds
It isn't just about food, it's about social cohesion, it's about culture. It's their history. And it supports not only the people of Bristol Bay, but all the all the wildlife in the region. And it's it's impossible to overstate how important protection of that ecosystem is. And that means stopping projects like the Pebble Mine. And it's it's been an enormous privilege for me and for my colleague Terry and Kiko Heimer and all of us at NRDC to be able to support the tribes because what has been going on up there with with the unwillingness of these mining companies simply to walk away is the 21st century example of what's been happening to Indigenous people in this
00:22:16:22 - 00:22:46:18
Joel Reynolds
country for centuries. The tribes have been been had their habitat misappropriated and been driven from their is their ancestral lands going back to the beginning of the century. And people think that's all history. Well, it's not. It's what's been happening up in Bristol Bay for the last 15 to 20 years. We're now on the verge of preventing it, and that's very exciting.
00:22:46:20 - 00:23:03:11
Joel Reynolds
And it's the direct result of the of the cohesion of the people who live there, the determination that they have shown against all odds. And we believe they're going to prevail. And that's that's exciting.
00:23:03:13 - 00:23:28:07
Mark Titus
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more on all fronts. It is a constant inspiration for me getting up every day and thinking of the people in region who have been fighting this every day for the last 30 years. As I mentioned earlier, you've been involved in this fight longer than I have. And and this is like decades worth of work here.
00:23:28:09 - 00:23:41:08
Mark Titus
What have you gleaned that has been the biggest struggle in this fight over over all this time that you faced?
00:23:41:10 - 00:24:19:16
Joel Reynolds
Well, it's a tough question because there are a lot of different sides to this, this kind of a battle. I mean, if you think about how formidable the the partnership of mining companies was, those are those are some of the largest mining companies on Earth. And the mining industry is you know, mining is something that as a society we definitely need, we rely on minerals, but the industry has a long history of steamrolling community concerns and and local interests.
00:24:19:18 - 00:24:54:03
Joel Reynolds
And the law in this country is set up to enable that. Honestly, they you know, the 1872 mining law is a giveaway of our public lands and that needs to be fixed. But that's another story. But the manifestation of that in Bristol Bay has been that these mining companies were able to to come in and and almost certainly succeed in gouging a massive open pit mine at the headwaters of a national treasure.
00:24:54:05 - 00:25:26:21
Joel Reynolds
It's this this is a story that if you if you actually tell people what is proposed and what the location is, I don't care what their political ideology is, they will tell you that it's crazy and it is It's it's not only crazy, it's immoral and it's illegal and it's wrong at every single level. I mean, one of the really interesting stories in the history of this is what happened last fall when, as I mentioned, it appeared that the project was on the verge of actually getting a permit.
00:25:26:23 - 00:26:04:08
Joel Reynolds
And at that point in time, a number of very conservative, very, very wealthy, very well-connected people began to take notice that maybe this was the time they needed to get involved to do something. And these are people that are very close to the Trump White House. In fact, one of them was Donald Trump Jr himself. And he, at some point in early August, went on social media and said, you know, I don't think this is a good idea and I don't think my father is going to support it.
00:26:04:10 - 00:26:24:15
Joel Reynolds
And then we were able to engage at the complete opposite end of the political spectrum. Jane Fonda, who did not have a history with this issue. But when she was told about it, she said, yeah, I want to help. And so she then went on social media and said, I've never thought I'd agree with Donald Trump Jr about anything, but I agree with him about this.
00:26:24:17 - 00:26:25:15
Mark Titus
That's right.
00:26:25:17 - 00:26:59:09
Joel Reynolds
And then Fox News picked it up and they ran a headline. Don jr. Jane Fonda agree. Mine should be stopped. I mean, it's it's hilarious. And then this made it all the way into the Oval Office when I think it made an impression on the president and who began to notice it and one thing led to another and the Army Corps of Engineers was at that point essentially released from the political strand or that it had been under for several years.
00:26:59:11 - 00:27:23:05
Joel Reynolds
That was dictated by the mining company. And they began to pay attention to the science. And their scientists didn't like this project and they knew that it was going to do irreversible harm to this ecosystem. So it's one of the funny stories about this, but I apologize. I don't think I gave you a very direct answer to your question.
00:27:23:05 - 00:27:25:10
Joel Reynolds
And if you want me to try again, I will.
00:27:25:12 - 00:27:54:10
Mark Titus
That's okay. That's a fantastic story and I'm going to elaborate on it. Actually, we took some heat from our friends on the left who when we included the section about Donald Trump Jr in the wild with our friend Nancy Morris Lion, who guided him and his son. And, you know, at the end, at the end of this, it was a calculated risk to include that.
00:27:54:10 - 00:28:24:14
Mark Titus
And we pondered that for a long time on whether we were going to include that part of the story or not. But ultimately, like including my own story of recovery in this in this film, we decided it was the right thing to do because it was the truth. And lo and behold, there is there was and is a thread, like you said, with the conservative base and folks that are involved in the outdoors and fishing and hunting.
00:28:24:16 - 00:29:04:22
Mark Titus
As you mentioned, Tucker Carlson ran a seven minute piece with Johnny Morris, the CEO of Bass Pro Shops, on his program. Who would have ever seen that coming? I mean, that was unthinkable. Is Jane Fonda and Donald Trump Jr. Getting along? So at least on that issue. But that being said, that this this is why Bristol Bay, I think is such a unique issue is it has brought formerly disparate groups like commercial fishermen, sport fishermen, tribes, conservatives, liberal environmentalists together on this one thing.
00:29:04:22 - 00:29:26:09
Mark Titus
And God knows we are desperately lacking any kind of cohesion in this country. Do you think Bristol Bay's fight can be a model for the challenges we face, especially in this tsunami of challenges that we're facing with with the climate crisis?
00:29:26:11 - 00:29:56:15
Joel Reynolds
Well, I'd like to think so. You know, if you look at this situation, at its origins, you've got what the mining industry believes is a mother lode of minerals that are buried in the Bristol Bay watershed. And the Bristol Bay watershed is in the state of Alaska, which is as development friendly as this state. As we have in this country is very it's a very red state historically.
00:29:56:17 - 00:30:25:22
Joel Reynolds
And, you know, even the governor of Alaska today is is is almost on that. But he's not on the payroll, but he's a puppet for Pebble, that there's no question about it. He has done everything that he possibly could to help the Pebble Partnership succeed. So this consortium of companies comes in and they feel like it's there for the taking, because that's the way the system is set up in this country.
00:30:26:03 - 00:30:54:15
Joel Reynolds
But what they found instead was the people who live there absolutely don't want it, don't need it, and they're not going to put up with it. And they have fought this thing relentlessly and they've been supported by an exceptional coalition of of of nontraditional all stakeholders in that effort. And they have not got to stop this project for good.
00:30:54:17 - 00:31:19:00
Joel Reynolds
We're not there yet. We have a lot of work to do yet. There's still an administrative process before EPA that needs to go forward. We know that the companies, if EPA actually does finalize a404c determination, the company is going to sue the agency and try to invalidate it. We're all going to go to court to support the agency if that happens.
00:31:19:02 - 00:32:00:08
Joel Reynolds
Senator Murkowski, as I said, is considering legislation. So there are there's a lot of ground to cover still, but we're in a very good position and we're feeling optimistic that the there is a unique political alignment in place to make this happen. Now, what does that mean for climate change? It means that when people are sufficiently motivated, when they recognize that what they care about, what they need, what their children need is at risk, they can come together and they can do the right thing.
00:32:00:10 - 00:32:24:23
Joel Reynolds
We have quite a long way to go, I'm afraid to say, on climate change, but we have been making progress. I think today that issue for the first time has really reached the top of the political agenda for the the the White House. It's never we've never had a president who has elevated climate change to the extent that the Biden administration has.
00:32:25:01 - 00:32:51:19
Joel Reynolds
And unfortunately, it's kind of a one sided effort at this point. We need all sides to come together. And I think that the political polarization that you have referred to is just an enormous challenge. I don't think any of us knows where it's going to come out. And I know that it isn't just an environmental issue. It's a threat to the foundation of our entire democracy.
00:32:51:21 - 00:33:33:14
Joel Reynolds
So there's there's been an effort to protect voting rights through Congress. I notice Senator Murkowski has signed on to that effort. Whether that's going to get through Congress or not still remains to be seen. But I do think the story of the Pebble Mine at its most basic, is an indication of the fact that that people of all sides, regardless of political ideology, regardless of economic circumstances and their cultural history, can come together and do the right thing, even against enormous odds and prevail.
00:33:33:16 - 00:34:02:08
Mark Titus
You're here. We're going to start winding this down here for today. But one other little thought that came into my head and has over the last couple of months, I spent I went up to Bristol Bay four times this last summer and fall, which was great duty, of course. But I know you've spent time up there. Anybody that does spend time up there, you can't help but notice the broad tundra, the the massive scope of the landscape.
00:34:02:08 - 00:34:33:12
Mark Titus
And if you haven't been there for those listening, I mean, it's it's like a giant peat bog. It's it's alive. It's it's growing. It's and I don't have the data in front of me. And I'm not sure if that data is quantified or can be quantified yet, but that's just another massive reason to keep Bristol bay intact as the carbon sink that it is with the incredible amount of biological diversity there just a little.
00:34:33:12 - 00:34:34:18
Mark Titus
Yeah.
00:34:34:20 - 00:35:02:10
Joel Reynolds
I'm glad you mentioned that because, you know, science has told us that if we if we intend to start climate change, we have to protect our lands and our oceans. We need to protect these global landscapes like the 40, 40,000 square mile wetland that is the Bristol Bay watershed. You can't develop it. It's a carbon sink and we we need it.
00:35:02:12 - 00:35:25:18
Joel Reynolds
So there are a lot of different dimensions, a lot of reasons to support protection of that ecosystem. And you've named just one more. But I just want to say before we end, I want to thank you for all the amazing work that you have done to elevate this issue, to bring in divergent voices, to tell your own story.
00:35:25:20 - 00:35:45:12
Joel Reynolds
It's, you know, your films are absolutely tremendous and they've played a big role in telling people what's going on out there and engaging them in a way that supports the tribes, which that's something all of us have tried to do and need to continue doing.
00:35:45:14 - 00:36:11:18
Mark Titus
Thank you, my friend. And and as we talked about earlier, you know, when people when people of any stripe, politically or otherwise socially in this country learn what's at stake there, Rick Alford says it best. They you know, it becomes part of the national consciousness. And folks just are apoplectic about allowing something like that to happen in this national treasure.
00:36:11:20 - 00:36:30:20
Mark Titus
All right. I have one last question for you, and then we're going to do our quick little bonus round, and then I'll turn you loose for this time. But I'd love to to revisit this as we continue along in this fight. Here's the last question. If we have the law, we have stories, we have action. You're involved in all three of those things.
00:36:30:22 - 00:36:42:15
Mark Titus
For those of us listening who aren't a super smart, powerful lawyer engaged in all this but desperately want to do something, what advice do you have for us?
00:36:42:17 - 00:37:18:14
Joel Reynolds
Couple of things. One is get involved. I think support, support. One of the groups, whichever one you want, support the tribes, support the fishermen, support the conservation community, get involved and enable the work that they do to when there are opportunities for public comment. And there will be an opportunity coming up soon. Once the EPA administrator process on 404 see it gets going again, participate in that, whether it's in person through public hearings or it's in writing, through written testimony.
00:37:18:19 - 00:37:42:13
Joel Reynolds
And third, let your elected representatives know how you feel about this and that you want them to get involved. This is a no brainer and this is something that whichever side of the aisle you're on, as you and I have discussed for the last half hour, that doesn't make any difference. This is a region that needs to be protected.
00:37:42:13 - 00:37:52:16
Joel Reynolds
These are communities that need to be supported. And your elected representatives need to hear from you.
00:37:52:17 - 00:38:16:23
Mark Titus
A lot of great places to go. And our NRDC dot org is one of them. We've also got we curated all of the action steps that folks can take at Ava's Wild dot com as well. You just go there and click the action tab and you can do all those things. Okay, here's our little bonus round. Let's just say let's just paint a picture here and say your, your house.
00:38:16:23 - 00:38:36:15
Mark Titus
We're in the path of a flooding river, which in Southern California is not out of the question. I'm knocking on wood. We're certainly not watching this. But of course, you would get out your loved ones, your pets, those those living beautiful loves your life. But is there one physical thing if you could only take one thing that you would take with you?
00:38:36:17 - 00:39:04:19
Joel Reynolds
Yeah. Yeah, that's an easy one. I have a I have a violin. And whenever I think about having to evacuate in a hurry, I always think about where is that violin? It's been, it's been with me my whole life. As I said, I majored in music in college. My father was a conductor. Music is at the heart of my family and my entire life.
00:39:04:21 - 00:39:08:01
Joel Reynolds
And that's what I would that's what I would take with me.
00:39:08:02 - 00:39:32:01
Mark Titus
Joe, I did not know that about you. I didn't know you play the violin. That's amazing. I want to. I want to hear you sometime. That's awesome. So how about let's let's a little metaphysical here. Two things that make you you two traits about you. Two spiritual or so emotional traits that if you could only grab two. What are those two things that you would hold on to?
00:39:32:03 - 00:40:05:17
Joel Reynolds
But I have I have a lot of passion for doing the right thing. I feel like life on earth, our time on Earth is short, and I think it makes a huge difference what we do with it. That's what I was taught from my parents and I'm one of six kids and all of us picked it up. So and I, you know, I'm fortunate enough to be married to somebody who is is the best example of that that I know.
00:40:05:19 - 00:40:31:04
Joel Reynolds
And so to me, that's that's really important. What's the word that I would want to have on my tombstone if there was just one word? I guess it would it would be kind. And that's that's that's something that we all need to think about, particularly when it's so difficult to get along with people today.
00:40:31:06 - 00:40:50:10
Mark Titus
So true that my brother, we need more jewels. Thank you for taking the time today. We will definitely revisit this conversation if folks want to check out what's going on at NRDC, what's the best way for them to track you down and to follow along with the work that you do?
00:40:50:12 - 00:41:01:17
Joel Reynolds
NRDC dot org. It's a good way to do it. I'm based in Santa monica, and, you know, we're always happy to hear from people who are interested in what we're doing.
00:41:01:19 - 00:41:10:02
Mark Titus
Joe Reynolds, you are leading the charge. You've been a huge mentor to me. I appreciate you. Thank you for the time today. And we'll see you down the trail.
00:41:10:04 - 00:41:12:04
Joel Reynolds
Thanks, Mark. Enjoy it anytime.
00:41:12:06 - 00:41:16:10
Mark Titus
Thank you. Bye bye. How do you say.
00:41:16:10 - 00:41:21:17
Music
How do you save what you love?
How do you save what you love?
00:41:29:02 - 00:41:55:01
Mark Titus
Thank you for listening to Save What You Love. If you like what you're hearing, you can help keep these conversations coming your way by giving us a rating on Apple Podcasts. You can check out photos and links from this episode at evaswild.com. While there, you can join our growing community by subscribing to our newsletter, you'll get exclusive offers on wild salmon shipped to your door and notifications about upcoming guests and more great content on the way.
00:41:55:03 - 00:42:34:03
Mark Titus
That's at evaswild.com. That's the word Save spelled backwards Wild dot com. This episode was produced by Tyler White and edited by Patrick Troll. Original music was created by Whiskey Class. This podcast is a collaboration between Ava's Wild Stories and Salmon Nation and was recorded on the homelands of the Duwamish. People. We'd like to recognize these lands and waters and their significance for the people who lived and continued to live in this region whose practices and spiritualities were and are tied to the land in the water, and whose lives continue to enrich and develop in relationship to the land waters and other inhabitants today.