The Connection You're Starving For (And Where to Find It)

"I hate it here."

It's a phrase clinical psychologist Dan Sartor heard from his own kids for years -- and it cut deep every time. Until he realized they weren't rejecting his home. They were expressing something they couldn't fix on their own: a longing for peace, connection, and presence that our hurried lives keep pushing to the margins.

Most of us know that feeling. We scroll past it, stay busy through it, or dream of relocating, hoping a change of scenery will resolve something that's actually happening inside us. But what if the answer isn't escaping? What if it's slowing down enough to let ourselves -- and the people around us -- be truly known?

In this episode of The Wholehearted Way, Nathan King and Mandi Wellington sit down with Dr. Dan Sartor, a clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience in what he calls "soul care." Together, they explore why we struggle to connect at the level we were made for -- and what it looks like to start.

In this conversation, we explore:

• Soul Care vs. Surface Fixes: Why addressing anxiety, conflict, or addiction at the behavioral level often misses the deeper issue -- and what changes when we go to the level of the soul.
• Why We Can't Connect: How relational deficits from childhood, cultural pace, and technology create a "perfect storm" of soul atrophy -- even among people surrounded by others.
• The Therapy Paradox: Dan's striking observation that people opened up honestly in his counseling office but showed up in "Sunday best" at church -- and what that reveals about the communities we're building.
• "I Hate It Here": A father's journey from taking his kids' words personally to hearing the longing underneath -- and why God responds to our lament the same way.
• The Montana Metaphor: Why our desire to escape to somewhere slower and simpler points to a deeper hunger for the kingdom of God, which Dallas Willard said moves at about three miles per hour.
• God's Plan A: Why deep, vulnerable community isn't a nice-to-have for the church -- it's the very mechanism God designed for healing and transformation.
• The Dark Night of the Soul: How Jesus on the cross -- feeling forsaken by God himself -- gives us permission to bring our rawest, most honest selves into relationship with him and each other.

Whether you feel stuck in surface-level friendships, exhausted by performing your faith, or quietly wondering why "the formula" isn't working, this conversation offers a different way forward -- one that starts with being honest about where you actually are.

About Dan Sartor

Dr. Dan Sartor is a licensed clinical psychologist and professional counselor with over 30 years of experience. He serves as the director of outpatient counseling and spiritual retreats at the Wing Center in Flowery Branch, Georgia. In addition to his clinical work, Dan coaches nonprofit and ministry leaders, walking alongside them as they lead, serve, and sustain their impact. He has been married for 35 years and has four adult children and a granddaughter.

Resources Mentioned:

• New Book: Becoming Wholehearted by Larry Bolden and Anisa Sumlar (becomingwholehearted.org)
• Wellspring Group: wellspringgroup.org
• Listen to more: wholeheartedwaypodcast.com

Creators and Guests

Host

Mandi Wellington

Mandi joined the Wellspring team in 2024. You can most often find the Wellington family at the lake or at a baseball game. Her ideal vacation simply involves a quite stretch on a sandy beach with a book or a conversation with a friend.

Host

Nathan King

Founder of King Strategic Consulting

What is The Wholehearted Way?

Welcome to The Wholehearted Way Podcast, a place for honest conversations about what it means to live and lead from a whole heart.
Here, we explore the stories, struggles, courage, and calling that shape who each of us are becoming.

This is a space to slow down, reflect, and grow. In each conversation, we explore what it means to live wholeheartedly — in our work, our relationships, and our calling. We’re glad you’re here.

Deepen the Journey: Discover the heart behind our conversations in the new book, Becoming Wholehearted by Anisa Sumlar and Larry Bolden. Get your copy at becomingwholehearted.org.

Presented by Wellspring Group (https://www.wellspringgroup.org), empowering you to live in the fullness of who God made you to be.

Nathan King (00:11.651)
Welcome to the Whole Hearted Way podcast. I'm Nathan King, a Wellspring facilitator, and our guest today is Dan Sartor. Dan has over 30 years experience as a clinical psychologist and professional counselor. He serves as the director of outpatient counseling and spiritual retreats at the Wing Center in Flowery Branch, Georgia. In addition to his clinical work, Dan is also a trusted coach to nonprofit and ministry leaders.

walking alongside them as they lead, serve and sustain their impact. Dan has been married for 35 years and has four adult children and a granddaughter. Also co-hosting this episode is Mandy Wellington, operations manager at Wellspring, longtime staff member. Dan and Mandy, welcome to the Whole Heart Away podcast.

Dan Sartor (01:01.806)
Thanks so much, Nathan. I'm so delighted to be here.

Mandi (01:05.322)
Thanks Nathan, looking forward to our conversation.

Nathan King (01:08.717)
Dan, you say that you describe your work as soul care. What is soul care?

Dan Sartor (01:15.566)
Hmm. Well, that's a very fair question. You know, for a lot of folks when they visit with a professional counselor or a psychologist, they think about wanting to get some sort of help or relief.

in an area that's a broken relationship or maybe in their struggle with anxiety or depression or an addiction history. And while I think all of that work is good and meaningful and a part of what I do as a clinical psychologist, ultimately I think the place of healing is more...

not just in our behaviors and in our thoughts, but penetrates more deeply to who we are, how we feel, our desires, and enduring patterns of relating. And for me, the places of conversation that matter most and the ones that are most healing, even in these areas where we struggle, say, with depression or marital distress or parenting or addiction

anxiety or whatever else the case may be, that for the most part these are questions and struggles at the level of our souls. And that being the seat of who we are and the accumulation of who we are historically, but what we think, what we feel, what we believe, what we believe and may not even be aware of believing.

And those things come to the surface in relationships. And they're formed in relationships. The wounds come in relationships and we heal in relationships. So in a nutshell, I think that's what I mean by soul care and soul work.

Nathan King (03:07.129)
Yeah, so as I hear you talk and you mentioned patterns and relational conflict might be maybe there's a pattern of relational conflict in a marriage or with work colleagues or something of that nature and you're suggesting that that's not so much the problem as it is the symptom of something that's going on at the level of the soul is really what you're saying. There's something deeper there and that's where you are.

I guess passionate about targeting.

Dan Sartor (03:39.202)
Yeah, I think that's a fair summary. And while our symptoms can be really important, right? Think of an infection and we get a fever. If that fever is high enough, the fever can kill us or cause brain damage. So I don't want to neglect those aspects, but you're exactly right that usually there's something more that's inherent to who we are, the depths of our personhood.

and that includes how we're embodied and that plays out in our most important, all of our relationships really, but especially some of those key most important relationships in our lives.

Nathan King (04:20.663)
And you've devoted your vocation to this over 30 years in this this area of soul care through the through the nominal title of being a counselor or clinical psychologist. What keeps you going to those places with people? What attracts you to it?

Dan Sartor (04:33.954)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Sartor (04:42.381)
I think it's the interpersonal contact and connection.

to meet with people and have them share with me some of the deepest, most vulnerable parts of who they are, and for many of them, for the first time, to take that risk to be known, right? To enter into that space and into relationships and a...

and a relationship that's purposefully set up and framed for very deep connection, deep levels of trust, knowing and being known, and in such a matter that that would be healing and even transformational. I think I'm just wired in such a way that that gives me great joy and great delight. It's hard work, it's challenging.

It has its risks and its disappointments, but also has a great deal of reward and a great deal of meaning. And all of that work, whether or not I'm working with somebody and engaging in a relational process with somebody who's a believer or not, that work is deeply spiritual. So regardless of whether or not we're overtly talking about matters of faith.

it can't help but touch the things that we most deeply believe and how that frames how we experience ourselves, experience others in the world, and the narratives of the stories that we tell ourselves about who we are, the impact we have or don't have, and what we hope for in the future. it's just, even on the hard days, it is deeply meaningful.

Nathan King (06:42.529)
And that's so you're wiring, you're connected, you're the way connecting with people you suggest as part of your wiring that profoundly gratifying, meaningful aspect of who you are is to connect with them. And yet there's a need, there's a need for a professional occupation that meets people where they are. How, I mean, you've seen this.

I wonder about this. not a professional counselor. I'm a lay person, you could say, and I wonder about this too. How do we end up in our society in a place where this is a need, where we're not having the conversations at the depth with a spouse or a best friend or someone at church that we know well, but instead find ourselves in need of something that's

that's a place where we're sharing things that we don't share with the people that we would say that we care about.

Dan Sartor (07:48.46)
Yeah, that's a great question. I will back up a half a step to provide a little bit of framework or foundation and then move directly into answering your question how we find ourselves here. I've talked about my own wiring and I do believe that this is in part my own wire.

some aspects of who I am, being empathic, being interested in relationships, emotions, patterns, so on and so forth that fit me very well in my personality and in my own history. However, I would also say that it is a deep need for all of us. One thing that...

science has been revealing to us or demonstrating for us in the last number of decades is how important our relational connections are just not only to exist but to thrive.

Right, and here I'm referencing attachment theory. And as we've come to better understand the brain in the last three decades and the development of our brains and neural circuitry in a field that's referenced called interpersonal neurobiology, we recognize that relationships, especially early on, as our brains are growing and neural pathways are forming.

that there is a need for relational nurture and the potential for being malnourished socially and emotionally, just like there is biologically being malnourished with our food and nutrition intake, and that there are key things in brain development and social and emotional and cognitive functioning that without these relational...

Dan Sartor (09:38.082)
necessities being afforded, we're left with profound deficits. And that's on top of where we might have a trauma or significant emotional neglect or things of that nature, right, or abuse in our backgrounds. So these things are deeply important for all of us. And if you'll allow me just to overlay the spiritual on that very, very quickly, those are the same basic...

aspects and the platform of who we are by which we relate to God. And so they're also very important spiritually and not just socially, emotionally, psychologically, cognitively in all of those ways. Now, as we progress, we may play those things out sort of differently based on our different contexts and some of the uniquenesses of how we're wired and what

mean by that, that's just our genetic constitution and the variability that's there. But even at the end of the day, a person who pushes away from relationships doesn't need them less. It's a way of protecting when there's a great need.

as equal or sometimes more than the person who's reaching and embracing, right, and everything in between. So that is a backdrop. That is in all of us. what I would say is I think we find ourselves in such deficit for deep, meaningful interpersonal connecting, in part because there have been those deficits for many of us as we've grown up. We've not had someone who's been attuned to us and modeled or taught us.

to be aware, to be able to give language, to be able to share that then and take the risks of sharing that in relationship or in community together. We also have experiences of trauma and abuse that impact all of that, but also just our society, what we value and how we operate in our culture tends to not give sufficient attention to healthy connection.

Dan Sartor (11:46.614)
and the vulnerability, but also the rewards that are involved in all of that. how we work, how we think, our pace, right, the things that we value, often that gets pushed to the margin at best, if not completely sort of rung out of our daily existence, because we're all running a rat race and we're all engaged with technology in ways that don't make much time for being.

or relating deeply and yet we're created for that.

Mandi (12:23.007)
Yeah, it feels like a perfect storm of things that just contribute to the atrophy of the soul. And I can almost feel like my heart, my soul ache as I relate to moments where I'm a little too hurried or I'm passing my kids realizing

We've got things we couldn't we have to do, right? And then yet at the same time I go to bed and I think, I actually connect with them today? And there's that sense of loss. I feel some of the weightiness of that as you're speaking. There is a book that Wellspring has recently released that you have read and called Becoming Wholehearted. And this is your you have not really been

through much of the offerings that Wellspring has, but you have read this book. And so I'm curious to know how that book, that read, intersects with this concept of soul care and some of the things we've been talking about.

Dan Sartor (13:34.648)
Yeah. And you're right, Mandy, that so much of our lives can be dehumanizing even when they're centered on the things that we're trying to keep up.

schedules for our families or get a meal on the table or provide for our families or we can be people. There can be a lot of people around us and we miss the moments and the opportunities to connect more deeply. And one of the things that makes me excited about this text becoming wholehearted is because I think it talks about that with an eye towards solutions.

in ways that are accurate, ways that are practical, and ways that are hopeful. And therefore, I think it's a wonderful opportunity for individuals as they avail themselves of this offering to read Becoming Wholehearted.

to begin to look at their own lives, see some things perhaps new to them, and grow in ways that allow them to become more wholehearted, as well as for groups or families or couples or especially within the church for there to be sub-communities or communities that would see this as

one.

Dan Sartor (15:09.781)
articulated way to get back in touch with what it looks like to be in connection with ourselves, others, and God, and become aware of who we are, not just at the level of our behaviors, but also what we think, what we feel, and our deepest desires bring that into relationship and in community in such a way that it...

it really does attend to this thing that we need and that we're created for and generate transformation, generate deeper purpose, and just have those moments that are so pregnant with meaning and impact, like running our kids after school to soccer practice or ballet rehearsal, have us become more alive.

to all that's actually truly there and available to us, but that we haven't paused to see or haven't checked in with ourselves or who we're with to deepen the moment, to seize the opportunity, so to speak.

Mandi (16:09.728)
Mm-hmm.

Mandi (16:16.245)
Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, I love that, Dan. It makes me think of, there's a new show out called The Madison and I'm not promoting The Madison right now. The setting is this family in New York City and the husband slash father has a love for Montana and he has a cabin in Montana and you feel the tension. I mean, you feel the tension.

of this rat race, how busy they are, how the screens that are when they're in New York, they're always on the phone on the screen and the disconnect and the conflict that happens versus when they're in Montana. They find themselves playing games and they're looking out over the river and you I cannot even with as much intention as I feel like I have toward this connect this way of living.

my heart was just longing for what was being proposed in this Montana lifestyle, you know? And I know the solution isn't Montana, right? But it was, I think it was just really playing on this hunger that we have for slower, meaningful, connected life.

Dan Sartor (17:22.125)
Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Dan Sartor (17:37.474)
Yes, I think that's a great example and a great sort of metaphor for what really we long for internally and because we want an internal Montana, don't we? And in fact, I can't help but think of Jesus's words. I think there's something to that.

when Jesus tells us that the kingdom of God is within us and very near to us. It's not so far off and so distant. And I think it's Dallas Willard who said that the kingdom of God moves at the pace of about three miles per hour, because we don't get the sense that Jesus was hurried.

at any moment, at any time, at any place. He continued to be so present in the narratives of the gospels and he had a walking pace, right? And where Jesus was, was the fullness of the kingdom. He was God in the flesh with us and I think he was inviting us to slow down, to not be so hurried.

And in so doing, his interactions with the people in his day and time there in ancient Judea, the marginalized were seen and engaged and touched and spoken to in ways that nobody else did. And he told his disciples, follow me as I'm do.

And so maybe that longing for Montana is part of our longing for the kingdom of heaven, which I don't think is hurried like we are.

Mandi (19:24.777)
Mm-hmm. That's so good. I had to tell myself, once I was watching this show, it's not actually Montana that I long for because it plays like that's the longing. And I had to remind myself, this is not what I really want, but it is the kingdom within. It is something that I have access to here and now. And I think that's a good news that, I I suppose a lot of people watching this show are.

Dan Sartor (19:44.848)
Yeah.

Mandi (19:52.265)
It doesn't have to be the show, but something else that's kind of calling to us. They might be saying, well, I need to move to Montana, right? But that's not the reality. The reality is this connectedness within in this meeting Jesus at this three miles an hour kind of slower pace. Like there's something very beautiful in that.

Dan Sartor (19:53.773)
you

Dan Sartor (20:14.221)
I have sort of an association in my mind that is kind of a flip of what you were saying. You mentioned in the introduction that I'm a daddy to four, they're still kiddos for me, even though they're between the ages of 27 and 21.

and they're all raised and pretty well-launched. And one of the phrases that they would speak regularly as adolescents, and I still hear it now in their 20s, is I hate it here. And sometimes they'll say that when they're in my home or we're at a restaurant together or we're in some context. And for years that was so hurtful.

and therefore so offensive to me, because I have spent so much of my blood, sweat, and tears as his parents, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

hard to provide this home and I'm doing the best I can as a parent and my wife and I are doing the best we can in our marriage and in our relationship and we've tried to provide for our kids not just financially and not just in their education but in all these other ways and it's like taking a knife and and stabbing me right in the gut when I hear them say I hate it here and then what I realized is that they're not talking about our home

necessarily our relationship or the relational space that we're inhabiting together. They're talking about they hate the feeling that they have in this moment. They want to escape from it. And it was such a switch for me, right? This is the thing that we're talking about, longing to be away from here, hating it here, wanting to be someplace else, in this case, figuratively Montana, that there is a way that that's true for...

Dan Sartor (21:55.688)
so many of us in so many moments or contexts where we have this thing like, I hate this stress, or I hate this conflict, or I hate feeling stuck, or I hate feeling so distant or so alone, or I hate even what I desire, or that I have desires and longings that I don't know how to have them be fulfilled. And we can be in this frustration, this anger, this disappointment, this helplessness, and I hate it here.

I think maybe that points to our being created for... Here I don't want to say another place because I don't think it's so much about leaving here and going to heaven. I think it's about God being with us and God being in us. And we will inhabit it.

a new created, like heavens and earth, right? And so it's not about escaping, it's about something shifting and transforming in us here and now moving into eternity that has something to do with accessing the presence of God and the person of Holy Spirit and how that's embodied in the way that we relate together, simply loving one another.

then gets the message of the letter of 1 John, that the God who is invisible becomes visible and tangible in the way that we have love, practically speaking, one for another. That's not just some esoteric feeling.

This is me showing up to relate, to care, to provide for needs, to make my needs known, to let my needs be attended to. So the stuff coming back to becoming wholehearted, the stuff of becoming wholehearted is very much related to that. It's in the way that we have love for one another.

Dan Sartor (23:45.782)
that the invisible God makes his glory known. God is love. Jesus said, all people are gonna know you're my disciples by having love for one another. The new covenant command he gave us is love as I have loved, right? This is how we fulfill his will. And it's how he makes himself manifest. And that is saving, that is healing for us. When we risk,

entering into that in our very internal selves with him, but maybe more importantly with each other. And again, becoming wholehearted maps that out in a beautiful, practical, sort of accessible way that for me rings true and also speaks to a place where the reaper meets the road, personally and relationally.

Nathan King (24:43.671)
the shift you talk about.

You gave the example of being at dinner with an adolescent or young adult child who says, I hate it here. And it's really easy to take that confrontationally. Like it's a personal attack. And what you're describing is the shift, is what are they, what's underneath that? The I hate it here is a surf.

in the Wellspring ministry, we talk about surface desires versus deep desires. And so there's an implicit surface desire there is I am what I need something to be different, whatever that happens to be. And it's the same as Mandy and her Montana story. Like I could see myself relocating to Montana based on that strong sense of I want Montana, it'll change everything. But that's the surface desire, not the deep underneath one. It's almost like a

Jedi mind trick because it's if you go from I hate it here means you're attacking me and what that does to your mind and your ability to be with someone and to love someone to what's underneath that? I hate it here. And now you're shoulder to shoulder with this adolescent or young adult child. You're with them. You don't feel the the attack you feel the how do we how do we get into this together? And that

I relates to your Scripture reference from, I think you said, 1 John, of love one another. So, you know, that is a really powerful statement for me, and in my best moments I've made that shift, and I have plenty of experience of not making that shift and having a miserable time and not loving somebody well because of the way I've interpreted what they're saying.

Dan Sartor (26:17.142)
That's right.

Dan Sartor (26:38.369)
Yes, yes. And I think, Nathan, that that is exactly how God has related to us as Father and has demonstrated that so plainly in the person of Jesus in whom the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. And who said to his disciples who knew him so well, if you've seen me.

You've seen the Father. And I think of examples like the book of Job is such a gift to us in the places where when we suffer to the degree that we feel a great deal of spiritual disappointment, a great deal of spiritual distance, a great deal of spiritual doubt, even when we would go to the place that we would wish ourselves dead or curse the day that we were born, there is implicit in the book of Job

a degree of faith in Job that he could raise such a strong and passionate lament, a complaint, if you will, to a God who would hear it and who, in fact, did hear it and was able to receive that and gave as a result of that a manifestation of himself. He didn't...

instantly take it all away from Job and he didn't answer Job's question why, but he gave an experience of himself that was transformational for Job. And that, along with the other laments in Scripture, shows us that God hears our complaint.

and he's not afar off, and he's the God that seeks and saves that which is lost. And he did it, by the way, in the opening pages of Genesis. If he wanted to give Adam and Eve hell, so to speak, I mean that literally, not to swear, because hell is the absence of God's presence, right? He would have never come into the garden to ask the questions that bring reconciliation. Where are you?

Dan Sartor (28:43.565)
Who told you you were naked? What is this thing that you have done? He's leading them to repair the relationship. But again, I think my greatest example of all of this is the person of Jesus. It is the pinnacle of God's revelation of himself. Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us, and Hebrews makes it clear in our brokenness. He comes tempted in every way like we are with.

all of the baggage as it were, not of sin, but of human frailty and weakness. And he is in the person of Jesus, the God who is with us in the place of, hate it here.

Nathan King (29:23.033)
That's so good.

Mandi (29:23.499)
you

Dan Sartor (29:23.849)
and he's not responding with offense, he's responding out of his love in such a way that if we'll receive it, right, there is a part where I have to receive that for what it is. If I'll receive his loving presence that is so full of mercy, so full of grace, so full of long-suffering, loving kindness, the fruit of the Spirit, right, that here becomes a Montana.

Mandi (29:51.445)
Hmm.

Dan Sartor (29:51.766)
Here is the place where the spirit dwells and where peace is possible, hence the fruit of the spirit. It's just that accessing that.

Mandi (29:54.943)
Mm-hmm

Mandi (29:58.858)
Yeah.

Dan Sartor (30:04.809)
Sometimes I can remember, sometimes I can get in touch with that, but I have so many times where I need a brother or a sister who is embodying that or who is conduit for the life of the spirit in them to be able to speak words of care for me or allow me simply to vent, allow me to say I hate it here and get through that to, okay, how then now will I live?

And so, you know, God is not an abandoning God. He is one who will hear our lament of, hate it here, and join us in that. And the way I read the New Testament, actually the way I read the entirety of the scriptures is that was God's intent with his chosen people Israel to begin with, why they were his covenant people. And now all the more so on steroids.

Mandi (30:30.645)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Sartor (31:00.373)
the church as individuals in whom God's spirit dwells, that we are to be little Jesuses, his hands, his feet, his voice, to show up in such ways of suffering, of need, of loneliness, of devastation, or even just simply longing for connection. I...

Nathan King (31:23.417)
Your Job example is so powerful. Job doesn't feel like a particularly popular book of the Bible in the circles that I am walking around in. And I came into adulthood with the sense that if I'm to pray, I need to comb my hair, brush my teeth, make sure I'm dressed well, essentially metaphorically, to pray, to try to rise to the level of God's holiness, because that would be appropriate.

given who he is, but complaining, lamenting that, I hate it here, that you need to solve that before you go to God. That's the implicit message I received. And my sense is in all of the retreats I've been at with other people who are participating in Wellspring, that that's kind of a widespread perspective is that we've got to get ourselves put together and then...

then we can approach God. But you're suggesting it's not, it's the opposite. It's just go ahead and declare, hate it here. And just start there. Just start there with God. Bring that to Him and then just go.

Dan Sartor (32:27.735)
Yes.

Yes.

Dan Sartor (32:37.087)
Absolutely, I think that is the most pure form of prayer that we can inhabit. And if there's a distance between us, Nathan, if you and I were neighbors, right, and if we became friends over years, if inside of me there's an I hate it here and I never speak it to you.

there's not an opportunity to bridge the gap. And so we might live right next door to one another, but internally we might be as good as enemies with all of this enmity between us. And so, and of course, I mean, we look at the history of Christendom and the Reformation and what we believe the gospel to be about, we know we can't clean ourselves up.

Like that's foolishness. And God knows it too, and that's not what he expects of us. He's the one who's made the way for the washing, as it were. We just have to consent. We just have to say yes to that. so, which has its own risk, it has its own other dimension, but really, and if we bring it home,

You know, God calls himself father for us, and here we're talking about my relationship or our relationship with our kids, right? In particular, a scenario with one of my kids. If my child is saying, I hate it here, they're basically saying they feel something awful and they can't fix it.

And there's an opportunity for me as a father to hear that lament, not take it personal, not push away, not criticize, not condemn, as you were saying, Nathan, in our best parenting moments, in our best daddy moments, I hear that for what it is, and I might actually say something like, tell me more about that. It sounds like you're having an awful experience right now. It's an opportunity to get to know the soul.

Dan Sartor (34:39.733)
Right, and also build a trust and an understanding and a bond and a connection that can totally transform all of that. And really I'll say my experience as a psychologist when I'm doing psychotherapy or counseling, counseling is just a catalyzed and very specific.

way of relating that takes these best practices of relating and sort of puts them on steroids. It does it very intently and very focused. The things that work in counseling and therapy work because they're true of who we are as human beings and work in other relationships. It's just a concentrated form, if you're tracking me. There's a period of time when I was...

a minister at a large Presbyterian church in the area where I was living, loved that church, loved that community. I was not on staff as a psychologist, even though I was licensed as a psychologist. I had responsibilities in pastoral care and our care ministries and young adults and young families and that sort of thing. And I also maintained a small private practice on the side. And for about eight to 12 hours in a week, would continue to do psychotherapy.

Mandi (35:48.331)
you

Dan Sartor (35:56.128)
My office for the counseling was all of maybe a mile away from the office of the church. And what was really striking to me is when folks would come and visit with me in my office at the church, I had the sense that they were trying to get themselves sort of cleaned up. Hair combed, teeth brushed, collared shirt, know, wrinkles out, a smile. And they would come to me and it felt as though I didn't get the same level of honesty of their lament.

When they came to me at the counseling center, like they let it all hang out. The language was there, the disappointment was there, the emotion was there, and they weren't expecting me to just pray and give a couple of verses and put them on their way and that was gonna be the solution. We got deeply honest and in that deep honesty through the process of relating, there was transformation.

Nathan King (36:50.167)
Why were they willing to take a risk in a professional counseling session and not in a pastoral setting? Do you think?

Dan Sartor (36:57.901)
Yeah, there might be a few reasons. I'll start by saying it really grieved me because I wanted that in the church. I wanted to build that. And coming back to becoming wholehearted, I think that is one way to build that and cultivate that in a church or in any faith community setting. So that's, you know, that's wonderful. It's what I was longing for and where I think it belongs most.

But the reasons might be multifactored. I think some of it, honestly, is they were more assured of confidentiality and privacy, even though I carry the same level of confidentiality. Sometimes in churches it's not, Things get shared as a matter of a prayer request, and that ends up feeling like gossip or feels shaming.

And I think sometimes too, there are also other elements. Sometimes, and I want to be careful that I'm not unfairly critical here, but in many of the churches I've been a part of, we see everybody sort of showing up as something like their Sunday best, and that's metaphorical. So we all think we've got to come together in our Sunday best, and we're afraid that if people see our profound brokenness, our guilt.

shame, the places where we don't have it together, that will be excluded, that either that God is unhappy with us because there's some sort of implicit narrative there, or that will be excluded also just simply from the community because everybody wants to be with the folks that look like they have it all together, right? And in fact, the deepest levels of connection and intimacy come when we together mutually share in our brokenness.

when we literally confess one to another, not as some sort of technique to make it all go away, but as a technique, so to speak, to enter more deeply into relationship, seeing and being seen.

Dan Sartor (39:04.845)
caring for someone in the places of their deepest vulnerability, that is what changes and transforms us. I'll say this really quickly. I think in psychotherapy, in counseling, that's actually what heals us, not the information or the grounding skills or the deep breathing skills, those all have their place. But those are all activities conveyed in a relationship. It is actually the relationship and the care behind it that changes us.

Nathan King (39:32.077)
Yeah, that's so profound because, you know, I think a common experience that people have is when they open up a little bit about their struggles or to somebody is the person that they tell gives them advice. You need to go do these things. And we talk about that in our Wellspring programs quite a bit about the importance of not doing that. But you said something really golden right there, which is

It's not the information that heals you. It's the relationship, it's being together in vulnerability and knowing that, I don't know, maybe it's knowing that you're not alone or being encouraged by the presence of somebody to step forward and try in a different way or to keep going. I don't know exactly what it is. Maybe you'd have a better frame for that, but that really strikes me with what you say there.

Dan Sartor (40:30.125)
Go ahead, Vandy, you were about to say something.

Mandi (40:31.051)
Yeah, I even think for me the permission to not have it all together. I feel like there's something in sharing like that where you do you realize, yes, I'm not alone, but I'm also being given permission in this way. And one of the things that's so striking to me about this, Dan, is what you're telling me is that the church has the capacity to be a healing agent for other members of the church. Like I feel myself tearing up at that.

that we don't have to be, yes, there is a place for counseling and clinical psychology, and yes, there are things that I think are probably beyond the scope of just sitting down and being present with one another and hearing each other and giving each other that permission. But what I'm hearing from you is there's a significant gift that we can give each other by being this way with each other within the walls of the church.

Dan Sartor (41:25.335)
Yes, I believe that's true. There's a capacity there. And I would go one step further, Mandy, and I would say that is not God's plan B. That is his plan A. That is his intention in bringing healing and restoration and new creation about for us. That I believe it was his intent all along that he would.

show up second person of the Trinity and the person of Jesus, live, make himself available in human form so that we could see what he's really like, which he knew would result in a violent, shameful death, that there would be resurrection, and the Old Testament is full of prophecy that the Son of God would ascend.

and then send the Spirit so that the Spirit by being in us would begin to cover the earth. The glory of God would cover the earth through his people, his presence in us, like the waters cover the seas. And so it's not only a capacity, it is, I think, his plan A.

And so we are invited into this mission, but it's also a personal experience, ourselves and with others.

That has been his intent all along. And so what happens coming back to Nathan's comments in counseling or psychotherapy is something that's just a concentrated form of that for a specific time, for a specific purpose, right? With a couple of specific individuals. And that doesn't preempt or doesn't, it is just a small slice of this greater picture.

Dan Sartor (43:30.337)
that is here for us, which is God's intent for us.

Mandi (43:35.019)
It's such a holy picture. Like what you're describing is such a holy picture. This indwelling of the Spirit in a way that transforms and brings the heart of the Lord brings that, I don't remember how you phrase it, it was just beautiful. And then my heart is struck with grief and the disconnect between what I experience in the church as this community.

that feels like they have to be all put together, that finds themselves being critical or judgmental really in order like I think more for self-preservation sake and yet this thing that you're describing that we're called to this disconnect is very, it's kind of screaming at me right now.

I I'm wondering, what would you say to the church? Like how do we call people back to that space?

Dan Sartor (44:47.309)
think the best thing we can do is model it and live it, right? And that's the beautiful thing about Wellspring's ministry, because it's not just this book, but it's the battle for the heart, and it's the retreats, and it's the groups that it's not abstract, it's not theoretical, it's not esoteric, it's lived.

and it's experienced, and it's experienced together. Of course, there's some information and ways for us to get on the same page for how we think about ourselves and what it means to be wholehearted and what it means to be connected to ourselves with God, with others. But that gives us common language and constructs and understanding, which is helpful for the relating. But I think what becomes

winsome, what becomes efficacious, what becomes captivating is living it out. And so, and we all can identify that in our lives where there are certain people, with certain encounters that we are changed sometimes just by encountering them and watching them. But then when we have an opportunity to

to grow and develop relationship with them. And then there's something about that that has its own power. And of course we can talk about it and declare it, but the real power is in living it, I think. And then just like any other part of the gospel, it's up to the Holy Spirit to be moving in the lives of others who witness it.

and how they'll respond to the open invitation to follow me, right? Jesus says to his disciples, follow me. But Paul said much the same thing. He encouraged Timothy and others to follow his example. I think he was mindful that he was giving Jesus words there, follow me as he follows Jesus. And so I really think that that's it.

Dan Sartor (46:53.427)
And what's challenging is that in my life I have so many distractions and obstacles and I allow myself to be.

Dan Sartor (47:06.957)
just to drift or to be so wayward, let alone the times that something inside of me still remains rebellious and angry and I want to do it my own way because this doesn't always feel good, right? There are parts of this that are hard. There are parts of this that involve a dying to our own selves. But that's the thing. We don't experience the beauty and the glory of resurrection without dying. I'm still rebelling against the dying part.

and what he has on offer for us is resurrection life. So I think I prattled on a little too much, but I do think to come back to answer your question, it's how we live it, I think that's most compelling. And then it's the work of the Holy Spirit to hook others along.

Mandi (47:55.947)
I'm kind of going back to the Montana thing. I don't know, I'm like way stuck on Montana, it's it's what I'm hearing you say is when people watch you do this, it's almost like the little Montana moment, like this Montana experience. They are watching this embodiment of connection and wholeness and fullness that calls them to hunger for something.

And so your invitation for people to live it, becomes, that is the little, that is the Jesus around every day walking around. It was really compelling, really beautiful.

Mandi (48:41.611)
There's something else you said, Dan.

Mandi (48:47.519)
I don't remember what it was. have to cut this part out. Yes, go. Yes, okay.

Nathan King (48:49.591)
Mandy, hold on to it. See if it comes back, but there's something that as I hear you talk, Mandy and Dan as well, I think of my own kind of journey into wholeheartedness where first I didn't know what I was missing, but I knew that if somebody at church asked me about college basketball one more time, I was going to scream. Like I wanted to talk about something other than

Dan Sartor (49:15.885)
You

Nathan King (49:19.265)
the sports of the weekend. And, but I didn't know what that was. And then in Wellspring, I started to learn this pattern of let's relate to each other in a more authentic way. And then it was a frustration of why aren't more people inviting me into that? This is my own personal kind of sequence. And then now where I am today is, well, I'm just going to go invite other people into it. And then I guess you become a multiplier.

as you grow potentially, where you go into a Sunday school class or to a group of guys at your church and you say, hey, you'll want to meet on Wednesday mornings at seven and just share what's going on in our lives and not give each other advice, which, you you have to learn how to do that because it's so natural to at least American guys to just tell you, you got a problem. Here's the five steps. I got you. I'll fix that for you. But it's a

Rich experience and it's not a linear experience and it's something that takes a lot of time and mature. It's a three mile an hour experience is really what it is. It just takes a long time to develop the maturity, the awareness, the appreciation, maybe the skill set of it, but it's certainly worth the effort.

Mandi (50:41.503)
I can really relate to that, Nathan. And I will even add, you talked about, you got introduced to it, you were hungry, you went looking for these conversations and you found yourself like, where are these people that want to engage on a deeper level? And I can definitely relate to that moment and the gap between that and when you started pursuing other people in relationship. And for me,

I'm gonna circle all the back to our deep desires because in that moment I had a choice. In that moment I could keep looking for other people to meet my desire for a deeper connection, realizing that I really couldn't find that. Or I could turn to the Lord and I could say, okay, I could do this job moment. I could cry out and I could say,

I don't like this moment. I don't like how this feels, right? And I could engage with him and I could let him meet my deepest desire for connection. And as that was being bolstered and fed and nourished by him, that is what gave me the capacity to go out and pursue others.

I really love that you, we kind of went full circle almost there.

Nathan King (52:00.609)
Yeah, I love the role of prayer in that, Mandy. I mean, that was this empowering force for you. I'm just curious, like, how long ago was that for you that you started to have that come to pass?

Mandi (52:16.287)
I think when I first started growing in my connection with the Lord in these ways that Dan's been talking about in such an amazing way. I love how you've articulated this, Dan. But when I first started connecting with other people that way and then with the Lord that way and then then I went back to my own sphere and I didn't have that as much. I spent a lot of time complying. I think I really spent the

first bit saying, where are these people that I need for my own connection sake? And it took me a bit. And so I would say I probably threw a pity party for a good year. And then I got busy, like, pursuing the Lord over it. And then that took some years of cultivating to really let that nourishment happen. And then over time, I just found myself noticing and seeing.

other people and being able to reach out and engage and pursue. So I don't really know what kind of a timetable, but it was a journey. I think, I don't know if that's what you're getting at, it was a journey. was that three mile an hour kind of wall.

Nathan King (53:23.447)
Yeah. The other concept that comes to mind for me is I hear you talk and since we have someone who happens to be a psychologist on the podcast, I'm curious on his take on this too, but there's this concept of the first half of life and the second half of life or the first half of life. We're trying to live according to some mystical standard that we think should exist. And then there's the second half of life where we finally put that to death.

and we allow ourselves to take start taking the risk to live the life that God's created for us. And it doesn't mean it's like you reach 40 or 45 or 50. It's more of a metaphorical second half. It can happen your 30s or your 60s, maybe never. Richard War has written about this concept and another psychologist named Jim Hollis has written about it in a book called Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life. But it feels like we're in that kind of territory as we talk about our mutual strength.

struggles. What do you think of make of all of that Dan?

Dan Sartor (54:24.095)
It does. think that that's a helpful paradigm to be thinking about. And part of the dying here is letting go of life being the way that I want it to be, me being the way I want myself to be, and letting go of my image of God and my concept of God in the way that I want him to be. And that involves a kind of dying.

that brings whatever time frame or slow process that is of releasing and grieving what I thought was or what I wanted to be to be able to enter into something that actually is far more beautiful and beyond what I could have ever imagined of what is. I say that because it's created by the one.

love and who is goodness in and of himself, right? So that reality that I'll enter into by necessity logically must be better, but there's this shift in my experience and expectation and grieving and all that happens in the shift of my appetite to correspond to what he really does have on offer for me.

what he has on offer for us. It's just like a kid choosing to stop eating Cocoa Krispies all the time, right? Start to eat something healthy. There's a period of time, like I remember how I was, I would never eat a salad as a kid. And over some years, like a good grilled chicken salad is my favorite meal to have. It took time for me to cross over and have a new appetite and respond to the reality of I don't get a sugar crash and I don't like, you know,

All of the things that are better in my life for having made that shift, but on the front end of it, at the very beginning of it, it was awful.

Dan Sartor (56:20.621)
And maybe there's a paradigm here and I've probably made it too trite. There are a couple of other things that I wanted to circle back on if I can. Nathan, you've talked about the challenge of getting people together, and especially men, right? Getting us together and not fixing each other. Because we're so wired or inclined, I don't know if wired is the right way, but we're so inclined, we're so habituated, maybe is the right word.

Nathan King (56:30.872)
Yeah, go ahead.

Dan Sartor (56:46.733)
to looking for a fast fix and giving that to somebody else because we're not comfortable with sitting with their place of lack of resolve or pain or whatever else. And you know what's really interesting that I found over these years of practice is that the vast majority of the folks that I've had the privilege of entering into deep relationship into hard, challenging places, most of them already knew the answers or were very close to them.

And what unlocked their ability to actuate them was being seen and not being rejected and in some sense validating and affirming not that they're right, but I see why you would feel that way. And I feel some of that with you. And I have my own correspondence of that.

And what has amazed me is how just doing that, and it's not like a simple, quick formula, right? We've talked about some of this stuff takes time. How that has unleashed or reawakened or whatever the right language is, something that enables somebody to say, well, of course, I've always known what the right thing is, but somehow I feel like I can do it now.

And at other times, there might be additional information or some skills that I can offer, but not to fix. It's really by and large, here are things that are on the table for you, if they would be helpful. I'm here with you regardless of whether you get better or not. I'm here with you regardless of whether or not you take what I have to offer or not.

And then the third thing that I think is relevant here is that there are things that we must grieve that we can't change. That no new information, no skills, no therapeutic interventions are gonna bring back somebody who's deceased that I've lost, Grief is grief. But the difference between grieving alone or grieving with someone who enters into the grief with me is a world of difference. Which by the way, I think is the point.

Dan Sartor (58:53.055)
of Jesus before he raises Lazarus. He knows he's going to raise Lazarus, but he weeps. He enters into the grief of Mary and Martha and the rest of that community before he says, Lazarus, come forth. And he allows for and embraces this humanity.

and this pain and enters into it before he calls him forth and resurrects him. And he knows he's gonna resurrect. By the way, we're all going to ultimately be finally and fully resurrected. And maybe he weeps with us in our weeping in the here and now, just like he did with Mary and Martha.

Mandi (59:31.947)
Mm.

Dan Sartor (59:37.27)
and Lazarus' friends, and the disciples, one of whom said, it'd be better for us to die now and be with him, right? I mean, that is love, that's bond. And so coming back to it, what we have here is a great deal of permission for this to be hard and messy, and the manifestation of the kingdom, of course we're waiting for that resurrection and all things being made new, but in the here and now,

Like we get these little bits and pieces in the way that we relate together. And sometimes that's just being with someone in grief because we can't fix it. We're waiting on God together. Sometimes that's just being there to care. And when someone doesn't feel alone, it awakens something and they can finally take that next step and be free. And then sometimes we have a little something that's new that we offer.

That's helpful along the way and the Lord uses that, but that's just our loaves and fishes to feed 5,000. I let's just be honest. It's just little stuff and it's the work of the Spirit and His grace to do something greater. If you'll let me go one more step, there's another way in which God is with us in the here and now that I think is really critical and important to mention. And it's in our dark nights of the soul. And it's how we can be better with each other in those places as believers.

Jesus' crucifixion is so compelling to me. And what we have in the person of Jesus is, first of all, before going to the cross, he's saying, if there's any way, please, Father, take this from me. He knows what it's like to go through something, that if there's any way at all for there to be a different route, a different pathway, we would want it.

He, in some sense, has wanted that too. Then if we were to look at the level of torture, literally, and betrayal, and abandonment that Jesus goes through, and of course, the incredible injustice in his crucifixion, he hangs on the cross and says, my God.

Dan Sartor (01:01:59.118)
Abandoned or forsaken me right it's quoting a song there And this experience that we have in the journey while we await The the the process of dying and relating and intimacy because intimacy and relationships are hard Let's just be honest about that while we are waiting for resurrection God himself and the person of Jesus knows what it's like to feel abandoned by everyone utterly alone

Mandi (01:02:05.931)
Thank

Dan Sartor (01:02:28.797)
even by God himself.

Mandi (01:02:31.659)
you

Dan Sartor (01:02:34.239)
And in that, he commends himself, Father, into your hands I commend my spirit. And the Father is delighted in the Son. The Son represents who the Father is. And the Father is giving, just as Jesus gave everything for us. And of course, the Father has intent in the power of the Spirit to raise the Son and bring him.

to the throne room of heaven till all of his enemies are made of footstool and he comes back to reign in glory. And we're working on bringing his kingdom right in all of that as his little temples. But the point that I'm to make in all of this that's so profound is that God would not allow us to be in the place of feeling forsaken by him.

Mandi (01:03:18.957)
you

Dan Sartor (01:03:25.143)
He actually enters into that with us in the person of Jesus, even if we can't see it and feel it in that place. He is still there. It is not something that he stands off from a distant foreign heaven and says, well, you've made your bed, now lie in it. You go through this. His being with us is even in the feeling of abandonment for the shame, the violence, the suffering, the betrayal, all of the things.

so that even there he is with us. He doesn't do it to us, he enters into it with us. And I experience heaven to the degree that I receive.

and when we do that together. And so that's just the kind of God that we have and that's what he invites us into. So that's not easy community, but it is honest, at times raw, and certainly with times of joy and celebration and all of that too.

Nathan King (01:04:26.681)
Yeah. Well, it's so profound that what you describe and for us to remember it in is a source of not only comfort, but a source of growth and connection and courage. And when we're in the moment, we often forget. And so it is an opportunity for us in community to remind others of that and help them to know.

to not lose sight of it. In fact, as you're describing this, I mean, you mentioned it being raw and hard and yes it is, but it's also in some ways it's easier. I don't have to come up, you come to me with your problem, I don't have to come up with a solution. I really don't. But my job is to point you to Jesus and to help you know that you're not alone.

Dan Sartor (01:05:17.559)
Yeah, just show up wholehearted with me and that itself is the medicine because when you show up wholehearted, the spirit is in you. It's the spirit showing up to me in you and with you. Yeah.

Nathan King (01:05:20.162)
Yeah.

Nathan King (01:05:29.421)
That's great. And your mention of wholehearted reminds me again of the book, Becoming Wholehearted. And one last question on the book that I wanted to ask you is, you you've read the book, you've also worked with the staff of Wellspring in a professional capacity. So you have a unique perspective in that you've worked with the staff in a professional capacity. You've not participated in Wellspring programs, and now you've read the book. What?

Did reading the book answer for you about the ministry? Maybe some areas of knowledge that you didn't really have that once you read the book became clear to you?

Dan Sartor (01:06:15.437)
That's a good question. Actually, at some level my answer might be disappointing. I don't think that I was struck with anything new or question answered, but I think that's actually a good thing for this reason. I had already been engaged with Wellspring and its leadership and its staff for a period of a year and a half or so before I read the book. And...

I think there was no surprise because, albeit sometimes in places of struggle and messy, which is true for all of us, these things were already so much a part of the fabric of the organization's staff and its culture, right? So how they functioned, not just at an event, but together as a team.

Mandi (01:06:52.205)
You you

Dan Sartor (01:07:05.877)
had this language, had this mission, had this focus. So when I read the book, Nathan, actually my response was, of course, right? So it actually, there wasn't a new piece. It was putting language on and framework for things that I had already seen modeled and had experienced and to some degree entered into by entering into this community. Yeah.

Nathan King (01:07:31.673)
That's really cool. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. Mandy, is there any question we haven't asked that you are burning to ask Dan before we wrap up our conversation?

Dan Sartor (01:07:33.421)
Yeah, it was wonderful. It was delightful.

Mandi (01:07:50.119)
I would, yes, but I fear it will kick open all sorts of doors that we don't actually have time to get to. So I would have liked to know Dan, and I'll repeat it as a question so we can cut this part out and then rephrase the question if we wanna ask it. I would love to know more about like your own, there were several times where I wanted to know like, what is Dan's,

experience of the dark night of the soul. What was it like? What is this type of like desire for community? What is your personal experience with that? Or I don't know, I just wanted to sneak behind like I'm understanding what you're saying, but I'm wanting to know something of Dan and your experience. So I don't really necessarily have a particular question. There were junctures that I've

I saw moments and then they left. So, but I'm trying to think of something that would be fitting right here at the end. But I don't, but again, like that might not even be, that's sort of kicking open something rather than like for us to be rapping. So I feel a little sad to have missed some of those opportunities, but other than that, I feel content with our conversation, Nathan.

Nathan King (01:09:13.451)
Okay, Mandy. Well, I it's been a really rich conversation and we could probably go on for another hour and a half for sure, Dan. I don't know if you could take it, but we could. Yeah, yeah. So, it's been really good to have you on the Whole Hearted Way podcast and we appreciate you making time and sharing with us your experience and we're excited for our listeners to hear what you have to say.

Mandi (01:09:14.335)
however you want to.

Mandi (01:09:26.859)
There you go.

Dan Sartor (01:09:27.233)
I would enjoy it.

Dan Sartor (01:09:44.013)
Thank you so much, Nathan and Mandy. This conversation has been so enriching and so edifying. And the two of you have such an easy way of being in conversation and therefore community together. So thank you for your hospitality and the depth and warmth of this conversation.

Mandi (01:10:04.533)
Thank you, Dan. It's been really a pleasure to have you and to hear your perspective. I just really appreciate you a lot.

Dan Sartor (01:10:10.989)
Thank you so much. Likewise.

Nathan King (01:10:11.469)
Yeah, it's been an honor.