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Discover the premier and original podcast dedicated to wildland firefighting, the vibrant culture surrounding wildland firefighters, firefighter mental health and physical performance, and the wilderness - The Anchor Point Podcast... Join our global community as we delve into the captivating stories of Wildland Firefighters, shed light on career opportunities, promote fire prevention awareness, educate the public, and openly discuss the mental health struggles and triumphs faced by firefighters on and off duty. Immerse yourself in our unscripted and unedited long-form interviews, where we leave no topic unexplored.
With The Anchor Point Podcast, you'll gain free and exclusive access to firsthand experiences shared by wildland firefighters, industry experts, mental health clinicians, physical performance professionals, doctors, scientists, and the families of fire line operators. Our episodes encapsulate the entire spectrum of emotions, from the extraordinary and awe-inspiring moments to the challenging and humorous anecdotes that arise within the industry.
One of our podcast's core focuses lies in unraveling the physical and mental demands encountered while working in the field. We delve into topics such as proper nutrition and hydration, stress management, relationships, and maintaining focus, offering valuable insights and shared experiences.
Prepare to embark on an immersive journey into the heart of the action, as each episode of The Anchor Point Podcast takes you on an in-depth exploration of the challenges and rewards experienced by fireline operators. Engage in enlightening interviews and discussions with subject matter experts that provide a comprehensive understanding of wildland firefighting.
Whether you are a passionate wildland firefighting enthusiast or an individual seeking to expand your knowledge, The Anchor Point Podcast is an indispensable and trusted resource. Our episodes cover a broad range of topics, including fire behavior, weather patterns, medical know-how, equipment, gear, and the evolving role of technology in firefighting.
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What's
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
going on?
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back.
Today's episode is gonna be brought to you
by Mystery Ranch Built for the mission.
And if you haven't been, uh, well
telling the story of While and Fire,
well, you better get on it because your
opportunity to win one of the Mystery
Ranch Backbone Series scholarships
ends at the end of this month.
Yeah, TikTok, get after it.
Yeah.
May 31st.
Uh, that's your gonna be your deadline if
you want to try and get your hands on one
of these $1,000 grants that they are doing
for a professional development, uh, gig.
So if you want to push your career to
new heights, or if you want to tell the
story of Wildland Fire and consequently
win one of these grants, we're pushing
your career to New Heights, well go over
to www.mysteryranch.com and check it out.
Yeah, it's a backbone series.
It's also in collaboration with
the, uh, wildfire experience,
the American Wildfire experience.
And, uh, yeah, they're doing
some awesome stuff over there.
So I highly suggest that you go
over there and check out not only
Mystery Ranch, of course, in the
backbone series, but also the a w
e, the American Wildfire Experience.
It's pretty awesome stuff.
And also, if you happen to need some
packs or you need anything built
for well hunting, fishing, camping,
backpacking, fire, well, mystery Ranch
has a bunch of solutions for you.
They make arguably the best damn packs
in the Wildfire game plus so much more.
So once again, go over to
www.mysteryranch.com and check it out.
The Anchor Point Podcast is also
gonna be brought to you by our Premier
coffee sponsor, and that is gonna
be none other than Hotshot Brewery.
It's kick ass Coffee for a kick
ass cause, and a portion of the
proceeds will always go back to the
Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
And if, uh, you're not into coffee, if
you don't drink coffee, which you're
probably a monster if you don't, well
they have a ton of other stuff, like
all the tools of the trade to get your
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If you wanna find out more, go over to
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Like I said, it's a good cause that they
support ripping, uh, some funds over there
for the Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
So once again, go over two
www.habbrewing.com and check 'em out.
And of course, I gotta give a quick
little shout out to my buddy booze over
at the Ass Movement and that stands
for the Anti Surface Shitting Movement.
Homie's a firefighter up there in AK and
he's doing the good deed of spreading
who bearing propaganda across the globe.
I dunno about everybody out there that's
listening, but I absolutely hate it when
I see a surface turd or someone just
doesn't clean up their wreckage left
behind their human excrement and it's
disgusting and that shit needs to stop.
So, Not only is he one of my very close
homies, uh, and we work together on
some other projects, uh, it it's, yeah,
he's got a good mission and it was all
started from Humble Beginnings, which
he, you can ask him all about Anyways,
if you have it over to www.to the Fire
Wild and check out the ass movement
and use the code Anchor point S 10 at
checkout, well, you can save 10% off your
entire order through the AS movement.
Go check 'em out.
Once again, that is
www.thefirewild.com/the as movement.
And last but not least, the Anchor
Point podcast is, well, they're not
sponsored by, they're not brought to
you by, but it is one of those close
relationships I have with Bethany over
there at the American Wildfire experience.
And uh, yeah, I just want to show her
some love for as long as I possibly
can because I believe in her cause
and I believe in her mission and
she's got some rad stuff going on.
And if you don't know what the
American wildfire experience is, well
they house the smokey generation.
And I know for a fact a lot of people
out there have seen that rolling around.
It's pretty freaking awesome.
What it is, is basically a digital
storytelling pla platform, uh,
telling the story of wildlife fire.
There's quite literally there's, there
has to be like over 250 of these stories
out there now, but it's preserving
the legacy of the, uh, folks in the
field and the story of wildland fire.
And some of these stories
even date back to the 1940s.
It's pretty freaking bitching.
So if you want a little history
lesson or if you wanna sign up for the
Smokey Generation grant program, if
you got a compelling story and you're
telling the story of wildland fire
through the lens of a camera, a video
camera, or a still camera through
a blog, through some animations.
There was this one dude out there
who made, uh, we move mountains with
spoons and it's freaking kick ass.
And they're a smokey
generation grant recipient.
Yeah, sky's limit.
Tell the story.
It's freaking awesome.
Anyways, if you wanna find out more,
go over to www.wildfireexperience.org
and you can check it all out.
Once again, www.wildfireexperience.org.
Bethany, you have a kick
ass organization over there.
Keep it up.
The views and opinions of this podcast
do not reflect the views and opinions
of the United States government, the
Department of Interior, the Department of
Defense Department, United States Forest
Service, the Bureau of Land Management,
national Park Service, the Bureau of
Indian Affairs, or any private municipal
county or firefighting organization,
any law enforcement, any, any,
what's going on?
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back.
Hope everybody's doing well.
So we are on one of the final
episodes of the Nevada Bureau of Land
Management, uh, rundown that we had.
I had the pleasure and the opportunity
to attend, and I was at the, uh, Nevada
State pre-season meeting over here
in, uh, Reno, Nevada over at the gsr.
It was pretty sick, but.
We've covered all the ground resources
for, uh, what's going on in Nevada.
And we are finally at the point where
we talk about aviation and all of the
aviation stuff that Nevada has to offer.
And like I said previously, uh, I
gotta give some of my love to the
Nevada Bureau of Land Management.
I, uh, cut my teeth here in
the state and worked a lot for
the Bureau of Land Management.
So we're gonna cover all of our
bases, all the ground resources,
and now we're moving to the sky.
It's a pretty epic episode.
We talk about air attack, we talk
about retardant, we talk about, uh,
one of fire's, best kept secrets
as far as like job opportunities.
Yeah, tanker bases.
Yeah, they're freaking awesome.
And we talk about some of the management
side and the side of the house that we
don't really think about as far as all
the inner workings of wild and fire
when it comes to having aviation around.
But regardless, this uh, episode is pretty
damn informative and also heads up, I did
make a mistake, which, uh, Luke Lucas Rea
Lucas Rea, he actually pointed it out.
I said that Nevada was the fifth
largest state and it's obviously not.
It is the seventh largest state.
So, my bad.
Anyways, feel free to call me out.
So without further ado, I would
like to introduce our next guest.
We are gonna have Jeremy Singh.
He's a detailed National Aviation Office
flight operations program manager.
We have Lucas Ray.
He is going to be the Nevada State Office
air attack and also former uh, Las Vegas.
Hell attack superintendent.
Shout out Las Vegas.
Hell attack and we got, geez,
I always mess up your name.
Alec Gochi.
Uh, he is going to be the detailed Nevada
state aviation manager and he is the,
also in his, when he is not detailed
into this, he is the Elco district,
u a m, the unit aviation manager.
And finally, like I said, we're gonna have
that tanker base manager here and that
is gonna be none other than Melissa Fry.
She is a single engine air tanker
based manager out of Wells, Nevada.
And she's got some pretty cool
stuff to say about tanker base life.
Anyways, y'all know the drill.
Welcome to the anchor point.
It's all about the sound sync.
Makes editing a breeze.
Anyways, welcome back to another
episode of the Anchor Point
podcast to be on the show.
I've got a bunch of aviation folks,
which I'm gonna have them introduce
themselves cause I guarantee you I will
mess up all of their titles and names.
So let's start
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
with you Jeremy.
Good morning.
My name's Jeremy saying I'm, uh,
currently on a detail to the National
Aviation Office as the Flat Operations
program manager and was the Nevada
State Aviation Manager before that.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Nice.
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
Uh, my name is Melissa Fry.
Good morning everybody.
I'm from Elko, Nevada from
the Elko District, b l m.
Been there for 10 years and I'm
the single engineer, tanker based
manager for the Wells Nevada seat
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
base.
Morning, I'm, uh, Lucas Ray,
Nevada State Office air attack.
And, uh, before that, 10 years as a
supervisor of Las Vegas Healthtech
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
and morning, uh, Alec Illa.
I'm currently on a one year details,
the Nevada State Aviation Manager.
Um, when I'm not doing that, my normal
job is I'm the unit aviation manager in
Elco, Nevada and been in that position for
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
the last 12 years.
Nice.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
So today's conversations could be
all about aviation, particularly
in the state of Nevada.
Right.
I've worked with all of you
over the course of my career, my
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
short 11 years
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
of being in fire.
Worked a lot with you, Lucas.
I've worked with you as well.
I've been to your tanker
base, worked with you in Elco.
Mm-hmm.
And let's just get down to the
bras tacks of things like what's
going on, what's new in aviation.
And we all have a specific
kind of thing that we're in.
And it's representative of all the
aviation program pretty much in
Nevada right now, right in this room.
So what's new?
What are some things that we're
looking at for the 2023 fire season?
Well,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
um, you know, first one, we, we kind of
talked about it yesterday a little bit,
getting ready for this podcast, but, um,
you know, a big thing in, in Nevada, we
did, uh, hire Lucas as a third air attack.
Um, And he's located at the
state office, but we got two
exclusive air attacks in Nevada.
Um, and, uh, Nevada b l m, you know,
we, we've been into, really into the
mental health in our employees and
um, when Jeremy was a state aviation
manager, realized that our air attacks
were, uh, they were working a lot.
Um, tough to get, yeah, we got to
tough to get air tax in for relief and
get those folks, you know, the time
they need to take off and, um, you
know, hopefully more than two days.
Um, you know, so he worked with
our management state office and um,
we brought in a third air attack.
Um, at the same time all those air
attacks got, uh, promoted up to the
GS 11 level, um, permit full-time.
Um, so two good things there.
And, um, bringing in Lucas gives us
that third person to, you know, give
days off for those two exclusive use
air attacks we have across the state.
So, um, in the attack world, that's huge.
Um, I'm sure Lucas can add on to that, so,
but that's, um, one big thing that, that's
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
going
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
on right now.
Yeah, absolutely.
Whether it's Nevada or, uh, across the
B l m between us, uh, Utah and Idaho,
where all the intent was to add an
extra attack to teach state to help
help out with exactly that staffing.
Um, allowing people to go out to
work on different qualifications,
uh, move forward in their career.
And, and then yeah, to get
some breaks during the summer.
Uh, big problems in the past have
been, you know, we don't have the
people to move into these positions.
The, uh, number of ver attacks that
we have as a militia, uh, or ad uh,
workforce or all dis, you know, getting
older and not, not participating anymore.
And it's, I mean, last summer, Nick
Booker, I know Booker quite well,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
he's like one of my
homies, so, yeah, exactly.
Booker, he's always up here.
Yeah.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Booker helped us out a lot last
summer, essentially staffing
the, the Reno platform after the,
the previous air attack retired.
And then, uh, I came in after him and
helped, uh, finish out the season.
But, uh, you know, the people that are
coming through and the number of people
we can bring in, it's, uh, it's tough.
And even last summer, and there were a
couple days that we just had to basically
shut the plane down because shit couldn't,
we couldn't find staffing for it.
And the same thing happened and I was
helping cover in Salt Lake as well.
And that was the same, same issue.
You just couldn't find people to
come in or, you know, when you do,
it's, uh, it's tough to piece, uh,
two or three days here, two or three
days there for people who want, uh,
who want a, a longer commitment.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's tough to mo to,
to get somebody mobilize.
For just two or three days on a plane.
So yeah, adding the
position's, super big deal.
Oh yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Well, I mean, air tax are, it's a
very specific thing too, and it's a
high level thing operationally, right?
You're pla we're practically a
flying IC three at that point.
I'm using that term loosely.
Of course.
It's more or less than that.
You know, it's very specific, but
there's not a lot of air attacks
out there in the first place.
So adding expansion to those capabilities,
especially with the fifth largest state in
the, in the union, it's pretty critical to
operational efficiency and safety as well.
The eyes in the sky.
I mean, that's definitely helpful
for gathering SA and you know,
getting into areas or tracking
roads or access or whatever.
There's a lot of things that Air Tech can
do, but you don't have enough of them.
Well,
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
and you're also assessing the
qualifications that it takes to
get it to air attacking, right?
So your IC three division soup, you
know, your career is path this way, and
then you need to dedicate your time and
efforts into, uh, a mission like air
attacking, and then you get a position.
And so previously as a GS nine
career seasonal, These dudes
are topping out right there.
But their division in IC three,
the same kind of quality you
would use to get to an A F M O.
So the 1213 level.
Uh, so looking at ways
to up that for them.
Um, the hard part was we did
it pretty much at the same
time as our agency partners.
Mm-hmm.
And they hired a bunch.
And so there was a lot of shuffling
going around that we still
haven't shaken all the way out.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
And I understand that the Air Attack
Academy is quite difficult as well too.
So you have to qualify and then
there's like a washout rate, right.
Is pretty high or, yeah, for sure.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
You know, you have to, one, you have
to do the qualifica, do the things
you need to do to get in there.
So you have to come in with a division,
essentially division supervisor
qual or IC three qualification,
apply to the academy, do mission
observation flights to lead into it.
And you know, there's 16 spots every year.
There's one air attack academy that
the feds mostly use, one that we
put on in Mesa every, every spring.
And then there's one in California
Casa that, that we can send people to.
Um, but you're talking about
a, just such a small number
of people that come through.
And then the number of people that we've
had in the past that actually go all
the way through to finish is, uh, you
know, it's kind of a struggle sometimes
because all of these folks that come
through, they could be a crew supervisor
from a health tech crew or a hotshot crew
and they have responsibilities mm-hmm.
With their own job as well.
And so, you know, it's tough
sometimes to get everyone all the
way through to the qualification.
And it takes a long time to get, to build
the quality, to even start the process to
start applying, to get into the academy.
I think.
I got signed off as an air tech in 2019
and that was, I think my 18th fire season.
And so yeah, it just takes time
and, and a lot of perseverance to
be able to get into the, into the
academy and then more perseverance
to get through the qualification.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
And it's kind of morphed too.
So it, I mean now there's a big
focus on speedy currency and then
the commitment from your home unit to
make sure that you have, you know, a
considerable amount of time dedicated
to going and working on this skillset.
Um, so it's not just go to academy and
then maybe pick up one or two assignments.
You're actually gonna go out and
marry up with somebody for quite a bit
of time to kinda get through there.
Kinda like
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
a detail, like mm-hmm.
You're gonna be there
for 120 days practically.
Yeah.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
Yeah.
So Jed Jed's the National Aerial
Supervision Program Manager,
and he has three national office
detailers for this season coming up.
Just for that purpose in particular
is just for the management structure?
No, to like actually detail those
Air Tech trainees Oh, gotcha.
To make sure we can focus
on getting them qualified.
So it's pretty, pretty good
stuff he's got going on.
Yeah.
Nice.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
And so the Air Tech platforms,
I mean, they can go anywhere
within the region, right?
They're not exclusively
like bound to Nevada per se.
They can go anywhere in region
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
four.
That's kind of like a shift in
the last, I don't know, decade.
So when I started in Salt Lake
with, uh, the Air Tech platform
there, it was pretty much a local
lonely, you know, local district.
Maybe go help somebody for
a fuel cycle or something.
Uh, but there's big and a big
ship between the seats, the air
attacks, the regional control.
We move stuff around a lot more now.
It's, uh, definitely a.
More flexible and dynamic.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Hmm.
And now Melissa, you're kind of on the
ground shuffling these aircraft around.
Mm-hmm.
And basically staging all these aircraft
and making sure that they're ready,
all the, all the seats are ready.
Everything else involved with
the aviation program, right?
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's one of those very
overlooked and underappreciated things
is the tanker base side of things.
Cuz how much, especially in region four
with the great basin and fuel component.
I'm gonna say it retardant wins
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
the day, right?
Mm-hmm.
Oh, for sure.
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
Yeah.
Um, we put out a lot of fire with
retardant here and we use a lot of seats,
especially here in the Great Basin.
Um, they're, you know,
essential for what we do.
And then on the air tax side of it
is if we don't have air tax, we can't
send certain levels of pilots as well.
So that can be an issue.
Um, if we have level two pilots
and they can't go to a fire cause
there's no aerial supervision, we're
kind of, kind of screwed in helping
out them on the ground, so mm-hmm.
That's an issue.
Um, biggest issue for us
lately has been staffing.
So you can go to any tanker base out
there and most of them are short staffed.
We've been lucky to be able to keep good
staffing here in Elko, in Elko district.
Um, with the new staffing matrix,
we are now like required to have.
X amount of people at our tanker bases.
So that's been really helpful to get
the support from management to be like,
okay, we need three people minimum
no matter what, seven day staffing.
And so we've been getting
really good support to be able
to find the funding for that.
Yeah.
Um, now we can get people that maybe
don't have fire line experience.
We can get them all
the way up to a GS six.
Um, as a ramp manager, if they wanna
get higher than that, they have to have,
you know, their 90 days fire experience.
But it's been nice to be able to
get people in as a 3, 4, 5, and
bring 'em right up the ladder.
And then now the tanker base managers,
seat managers used to just be, you know,
large air tanker bases were eight nines,
so now seat managers are able to be nine.
So we have a ladder to
go up to management from
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
there.
So
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
with all, all of these things with
aviation playing together, right, because
it's from the ground to the air and back
down right to the boots on the ground,
there's a lot more I've, I've seen a
lot more pipelining of career paths with
aviation, tanker bases, engine crews,
even, you know, crews like hand crews too.
Like what's the biggest thing that
you see as far as availability and
trying to expand people's, uh, career
paths into getting into say, air
attack or hell attack, or a ramp
manager, base manager, all that stuff.
A u a m maybe.
Like what do you guys see as far as
improvements for diversifying that, that
experience as a first level firefighter?
Like you're planning out your career.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
So I think, you know, working
in Salt Lake, cause that,
that was a big eyeopener.
I'd been in crews and heli attack getting
up to that point and I just kind of rolled
the dice to get out of where I was at.
And you know, it really kind of
opened up the whole, you know,
we talk about retardant, right?
When I got there it was a bunch of adss,
it'd be like one ad might be retired,
running a show with two airplanes
and very questionable, you know.
And so like looking at it, assessing,
hey, what's the complexities here?
How do we make this right?
Because as soon as we went to a geographic
asset with the seats and the air tax, you
know, you could have two seats previously
and that's all you would ever have.
So it's kind of a manageable workload.
Now with the geographic assets,
it could be wells and they have
two seats in the morning and by
lunchtime there's eight seats there.
And so the workload is
definitely complex a lot.
And so how do we get these
people up and trained up?
And so they gotta park planes,
they gotta be a ramp manager,
they gotta be a seat manager.
And then how do you get them from the
seat manager level to the UAM level?
Yeah.
Because not every district
has he Crew seats Airex.
Yeah.
And so we need more uams to help support
the system to get the mission done.
And so it's kind of just a multi-faceted,
like everybody needs a pipeline.
Yeah.
And then trained to a standard.
Right.
Unless it's one of our best, you
know, at the, the seat based training
and RAMP training in big swing park.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
Well it just seems like
you're organizing chaos.
I mean, that's all we kind of all do.
Whether you're on an engine in
a hand crew, a hell attack crew.
But I, for some reason, I'm kind
of stuck on the fact that aviation
is one of the most chaotic.
Career paths that you can have.
I mean, especially as like an air attack
man, you're just coordinating airspace.
It's like, holy shit,
what are you guys doing?
How do you handle this?
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
I used to say that like, I think F os
and ICS think that retards just like
varies and, and she like leprechauns
that are loading these planes, they've
no, no clue of all the work that
goes into getting that onto the fire.
Yeah, because it is definitely
kicks your butt if you don't know.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Oh yeah.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
I think you talked about the pipeline.
So moving, you know, all of our base
managers at that nine level, eight,
nine, um, by making that change,
you know, that it's given them.
Now we've got another asset in
Nevada that can move into that
u a m position at the 11 level.
So, you know, where those maybe
seat managers who have a ton of
experience couldn't make that jump.
They had to find some other, you
know, go be a tanker based manager
and get your time as a nine.
Um, now they are that, so we
just, it gave us another thing,
and Elco is a good example.
We, you know, luckily we have a lot
of, we got three assets, so, you
know, there is an R T O, we got three
GS nine s that if that GS 11 UAM
comes vacant, we got three hopefully
good applicants right there locally
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
that can apply for it.
So, and that's back to the work-life
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
balance and home life and mental health
is, you know, I, I moved to like six
different states to get where I am.
And that's just not the
norm anymore, right?
Yeah.
Your, your lists don't look
that way when you're out hiring.
And so how can we help foster that
within so folks don't have, so Melissa
wouldn't have to move to stead.
Yeah.
To be a tanker base manager.
Just to go back to Elko some days
at the uam, she could stay there and
still have the same opportunities.
I don't know.
Camp kid Will is kind
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
of fun.
Oh, that's the best.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Anyways,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
yeah, you'll see that, like what they
talk about with the, uh, with the expanded
staffing and the, and the balance.
I saw it on when I supervised the heli
tech crew as these positions got added and
they saw a different path to move up to
towards that 11 or Yeah, that 11 level.
Right.
So I had, uh, squad leaders that
were starting to work on tanker based
qualifications or, uh, Sadie Hines, who's,
uh, the seat based manager of Mesquite.
She was on our crew for four Seasons.
Yeah.
And then the same thing, there was some
exposure and then she would ask, Hey, can
I spend some time away from the crew to
go work on these, uh, tanker based quos?
And we'd let her go.
And like you said, it's just
exposure, whether it's from
engine folks or crew folks.
Uh, again, when I ran the
crew, the same with you.
It was just opening up, Hey,
we have some spots open.
We can take some detailers.
And you came down and that worked
out for you to come down and work
with us on more than one occasion.
Yeah.
Just, uh, and that was it.
Just keeping the door open to,
to give people the opportunity
to try something else out.
Especially people that are
new in their fire career.
For me, when I, when I was
in that super supervisory
position, was just the exposure.
I'm letting 'em see and try, try
things out that they weren't used to.
They'd been on ATRA group
for three or four years.
Come, come over, try this for a
detail or then a season, and then
yeah, you can see the, the ways
that you can build qualifications
or expand your horizons, right.
And just give yourself opportunities
was, was, is pretty key.
And aviation just has so many different
avenues that you can take to, to
build those opportunities to move
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
up.
It seems like there's a lot more, uh,
flexibility built in with the aviation
program than, uh, you know, especially
like a hijack through the crew life.
Right.
And, uh, I'm, I'm a big fan of aviation.
I was a hell attacker and I've worked
with you on Vegas, uh, or Vegas.
Uh, hell attack I worked
with, um, Bridgeport.
Hell attack
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
friendly rivalry there, right?
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
Yep.
Uh, Eli hell attack.
I mean it, the opportunities in
aviation I think are one of those
overlooked things because everybody
wants to stick with operations, right?
Everybody wants to go operational.
They become a lifer.
And it's like this, this
mindset, it's like, yeah, I just
wanna be a, a career hotshot.
Yeah.
But there's a big ass world out there
as far as opportunities even to tanker
bases and back to, well, let's clarify
some stuff first for the folks that
don't know what these acronyms meant.
So uam, unit aviation, aviation manager,
unit aviation, and then rto rto.
Reverse tool order?
No, you were saying some of
the other, some other thing,
some other acronym in there.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
What'd they throw out there?
I don't know.
U a m
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I'm not sure man.
Anyways.
Well, um,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
but yeah, I mean it's these things
that's cause I'm a firm believer in
like, I guess working smarter and kind
of like understanding the longevity of
your body and what you have available.
Cuz this is a very physical job.
The operational component, right?
Operational component.
So when you get into the point of
your life where you're either a,
wanting to having kids or buy that
house or kind of settle down with your
wife or girlfriend or whatever, you
have those opportunities out there.
Yeah.
You're gonna be getting your
ass kicked and working a ton
of hours at a tanker base.
You're gonna give you, again, your
a kicked as a u m but you have those
opportunities to be somewhat local and
your body's not gonna last forever.
If you take one bad fall or take a rock
to the chest or blow out your knee,
you're pretty much done for the season.
So diversifying your career
is gonna be important.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Um, with
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
the help of Jeremy saying Sadie and I and
Joe Miller ended up creating a Nevada Seed
Academy that we put on down in Mesquite
every year and it gives everybody an
opportunity to kind of see what we do.
We do an overview of like mixmaster
retardant, crew member fixing
parking tender or ran manager and
it's kind of nice cuz um, Sadie
needs a lot of help down there.
So we end up bringing a lot of militia
folks from the local BL m Forest service
and it gives an opportunity for heli
tech cuz they're not out already.
Mm-hmm.
So they're able to come up and we just
give everybody an overview of what
we do and they absolutely love it.
I mean, we bring out retardant and
we check, you know, refracts and
measure the salt content and what
it's gonna do out on the fire.
So it's, it's a pretty cool program.
So this will be our second year.
Yep.
Doing it.
So, um, we try to bring in all the
seasonals from all the tanker bases
that have never maybe parked a plane
and use actual live aircraft, cuz
they're the first ones on for the year.
Mm-hmm.
Be able to go move 'em around
and they get a good eye-opener
of what their season's gonna be
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
like.
Oh yeah.
Well, things, things definitely
change, especially when rotors are
turning or there's turbines firing up.
Right?
Yeah.
It's like, yeah.
Especially, I mean, I've probably
been guilty as this and probably
everybody who's worked with aviation
has been guilty of this, but it's
just like, holy shit, this is real.
Yeah.
It's kind of like shocking at first,
but then you get used to it, right?
Mm-hmm.
So, so mixmaster the retardant stuff.
Let's talk about retardant now.
How many gallons of retardant does
Nevada pump out per year on average?
You think?
That's a pretty big question.
I don't
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
really like to talk about Gallonage
just because I think that's a large air
tank or forest service special thing.
Mm-hmm.
I'm more about the mission.
So how many takeoffs and landings, how
many sorties were flying in that regard?
I mean, in 2018, Melissa flew,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
like drum roll, what was it?
Hundred
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
95 missions out of wells, if
you've ever been to Wills, Nevada.
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean it was, it would be like
flying 4 million gallons out of stead.
You know, like just astronomical
about emissions shit.
That's how we, that's how Nevada
fights fire with, you know, especially
with, with, uh, doggie and everybody.
Like they show up on these fires, send
us six seats, two heavies, and mm-hmm.
Two VLAs and that's Gates work.
You know?
So yeah.
All that mission falls back on these guys
though you're flying almost 800 missions,
like you're staffing and the amount of
experience that's needed for that in such
a small combined area, super important.
And it's super
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
risky and it's super dynamic and
it's loud and it's fast-paced.
Yes.
So being dialed in with all the
ramp operations, that's critical to
the success of everybody out there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So as far as retardant goes, like
I, I don't know the technicalities
cause I've never worked with retardant
except for like, you know, directing
aircraft to drop it on fire, right?
Mm-hmm.
So when you're in the mixing stage of
things, let's take it from like there
to when it gets loaded on the plane and
the plane takes off, off, I didn't know
that there was like a specific ratio of
water to mix and all this crap going in.
It is pretty technical work when
it goes into, like, when you
go into mixing this retardant.
Yes.
And it directly affects the, the,
uh, efficiency of application, right?
Yes.
Let's talk about that.
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
Um, Ooh, go back to mixing days, huh?
We're all, yeah, most of us are full
service now, which is really nice.
So we bring in a crew that does all our
mixing and loading for us, but mm-hmm.
Um, we provide a liquid concentrate.
Um, people call it retardant.
It's not retardant until it's
actually mixed with water.
So it's five and a half parts of water
to one part of liquid concentrate.
And then that's where we get the certain,
um, refract of salt content that we need.
Refract
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
was refracted.
A
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
refractometer is just a visual
site tube that measures a salt,
salt content in the, the test.
Mm-hmm.
And so you're shooting for like shooting,
it's like 24 or something like that,
or 32, something, like something
in that range, but you just look
through it and there's a little line.
Okay.
And so that's, it's batch mixing.
So there's,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
it's like measuring beer.
I'm a beer maker.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the refractometer for measuring your
alcohol content, you shooting content.
Okay.
And
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
there's different ways.
There's mixing on the flyer, which goes
through a machine and blender micro
motion, but we don't know, we didn't
always have that coming up, so we did
a lot of batch mixing in seat world.
And so you'd make these
big bats essentially.
And so the best way to test it was
just to get out salt content, you know?
And so now there's actually
some technology and all
the bases have micro motion
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
as well.
Yeah.
Micro motion.
So micro
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
motion is what measures the density,
like the density of the product.
And then that's kind of like our refrack,
so we get between a certain number
and then if it's too heavy, you know,
we'll have to, you know, change our
valves to bring in more water, but it's
a certain amount of weight that those
pilots and those aircraft can take.
Mm-hmm.
Um, what's the best refract, I guess,
or salt content that's actually
gonna be productive on the ground?
So we have a certain, um, number, you
know, that we need to get in between.
If not, it's too heavy.
Mm-hmm.
I think it's like 8.9 pounds.
Per gallon, you know, without,
with when it's mixed retardant.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
So, whereas just water
alone is about seven.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sounds pretty heavy.
I think's like
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
12.
12.
So if you loaded 700 gallons, your, your
payload is gonna be off at max gross.
So it's pretty important if you
get their weights right, you know?
Yeah.
But if you'd have told me 10
years ago, I've spending this much
time talking about retardant, I
probably would've punched you.
It'll kick your butt, man.
I mean, when it's,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
you
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
know, 95 degrees, a hundred
degrees in wells, our density
altitude's about 10,000.
Mm-hmm.
10,000 feet.
So us, you know, 800 gallons, it's
12 pounds is gonna be, they're not
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
getting off the ground.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Especially with Yeah.
With how hot it gets.
And, and a lot of people underestimate
Nevada, I think especially outsiders.
Like we start at 5,000
feet and go up to 12.
Yeah.
It's 12,000.
It's, it's pretty steep and
gnarly terrain out here.
And when you're flying in those
conditions, even on a rotor wing,
orth, like it's, it's gnarly.
You get these gnarly updrafts,
you get these gnarly canyons.
It's very technical and
the hazards are there.
So if you're, your load calc
is off, it's not gonna be good.
Right.
Yeah.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
There's a lot of
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
reports and findings from that same stuff.
I mean, whether it's overgrow aircraft
with retardant or helicopter load
calculations not done correctly.
I mean, you don't have
to go very far back.
Mm-hmm.
So it's definitely something
that everybody keeps in
the front of their mind.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
So
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
we, we set a really high precedence on our
training when it comes to ramp operations.
The only, I mean, If you don't have that
there, we are not being able to provide
a product to these air attacks when
they order six to eight to 10 seats.
Mm-hmm.
We had a fire last year, we timed
out eight seats, brought two
more on for the last two hours
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
of the day.
You cycled them out
through their duty cycles.
Mm-hmm.
Holy shit.
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
So eight hours, you know,
seven plus hours of flying.
Yeah.
Can't go over eight.
Um, but we take pride in that, making
sure that if he's calling and wanting
seats, we can be able to do all
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
that.
Yeah.
So let's get back to the, I guess let's
get back to the retardant question here.
I know this is more of
a forest service issue.
Um, the, the, like they've ceased
retardant operations on forest lands, so
there's like rumor that that's happening.
I know that doesn't really apply
to the Bureau of Land Management.
I dunno if you guys could
speak on that at all.
Have you've heard anything or I, I've
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
heard lawsuit.
Yeah, that's it.
It's just, yeah.
Okay.
No, there is one.
But the other than that, nothing.
So,
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
surprisingly Nevada, I mean,
everybody sends nuclear waste here.
It's like, yeah.
You know, it's, that's
what everybody thinks.
But the nation's dumping ground.
Nevada's EPA is like super tight.
And so Luke or, uh, Alec and I have spent
a lot of time doing road trips around
Nevada, with Nevada EPA and whatnot.
And building standards
must is so much fun.
Oh dude, you just learn stuff
and you're like, why man?
I used to like just sharpen a
tool or chainsaw and now I'm like
talking about chromium and, you
know, stormwater, pollution plans.
I'm like, this is crazy.
It's life decisions, bro.
Yeah.
Um, but back to the story is
like the, the manufacturer of
the current product actually.
Worked on a new product for Nevada
specifically, and it's kind of gone
national now, but it takes the, the
bad stuff out of the retardants.
So the cadium chromium come out.
The heavy metals.
Yeah.
And so you're just, I mean, there's still
some nitrogen and, and stuff that you
got a concern with, with, uh, leaching,
but it, it definitely helped with our
concern for, uh, the retardant issues.
Cuz it wasn't even the forest component.
It was more of managing byproducts
and like ponds and wash down.
It was just eating us up because
the standards are, or the
restrictions and standards are so
high, you know, trying to hold that
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
line.
Yeah,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
yeah.
We put back in the day, I mean, I
think we put seat bases everywhere,
every airport we could in Nevada,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
um, like the mobile seat bases,
the trailers and stuff like
that, mixing every airport would,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
they would've retardant.
Atos.
They had retardant, we had Oh, wow.
Tanks there.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
So, um,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
maybe four years ago we
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
started.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
Yeah.
When I got here in 18, I,
I tell people this story.
I was up in Nipsey in the op side and
they have this wall with each state
and all the resources in that state.
And I glanced over it in Nevada and it
said something like freaking 13 sea bases.
Yeah.
And I was like, dude, I had no idea.
And I just got the job.
I didn't, I'm gonna
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
go had 13 airports I know
operations for aircraft.
So we're down to
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
six now.
Yeah.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
We've cleaned up, worked with the apa.
I mean, it was a lot
of work, a lot of money
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
to, I can't imagine that, you know,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Clean up everything.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
And, uh, yeah.
So now, yeah, now we're, we got
stead, battle Mountain is our two
heavy bases, and then we got Wells,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Mesquite,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
and Winnemucca is our seat bases and
focus our money and efforts there.
Um, instead of having
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
all kinds, we
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
had to do a lot of cleanups because
managing that year round, like if you're
not recirculating and it just turns
into hazardous waste, you got cleanups
and I mean, millions of dollars, right?
Mm-hmm.
And it is a great idea, you know, but at
some point, if you don't have the staff
to like manage it and take care of it,
make it their own, then it goes bad.
And then you have this larger issue.
So now we're, we're trimmed
down, staffed up training high.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I remember, uh, coming back from a roll
when I was on E Eli, hell attack and, uh,
the mixing station there at Calle, one of
the hoses decided to sun rot or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
And it was one of the passthrough,
one of the bypass hoses from
tank to tank with mixing.
I, I'm assuming that's
what it was, I think burst.
And it dumped every gallon of
retardant into the holding tank,
like the little dyke that goes around
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
it.
Right.
And it
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
was a horrible cleanup where
we had a colon specialist.
It was practically a hazmat scenario,
but I, I don't know if it's classified
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
as we had hazmat, we had same
thing happen in McDermott.
I dunno, two years ago we had an ad
and, and this is always, you know,
just a question like, all right, you
gotta send people with each other.
Cuz this guy went out here, started
up the pumps to recirculate.
Had to go take, you know, number
deuce and like just left and
comes back and it's just a geyser.
And now it got in the containment area.
It was all over.
I mean, it was probably a $300,000 cleanup
after it was all said and done, right?
Mm-hmm.
And just because you left the pump
running to go to the restroom, right?
Like mm-hmm.
So that's back to that training standards
and you know, like not making the same
mistakes over and over and over because
it is a huge pain in the butt and it
doesn't help the state as a whole.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
And our containments were never made
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
the containments we had, we just
built, and they were, we never designed
them to hold all the retarding.
You, you
saw
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
the one
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
when you were on any of Oh yeah.
It was flowing and just,
yeah, it was mesquite
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
dialed.
They got a great containment system.
Um, and then Winn and Wells, um, we're
in the process right now and received
money and we're redoing the ramps there.
Our containments,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
well Eva Ponds, so
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
spending a lot of money, those
locations to do it right.
So if we do have a spill or something
like that, we're gonna be able to,
you know, clean it up properly and,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
um, just do what's right.
Yeah,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I didn't know that it had like heavy
metals at it in it at one point.
I didn't know that they're taking it out
with the lawsuit and everything like that.
And I don't know much about, it's
like, I'm not going dwell on the, the
subject, but when I was cleaning that
stuff up, it just stunk like piss.
It was just,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
it'll burn.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Like if you have Yeah.
You know, from the get it
on your skin for too long.
And we, we ended up having to go get
like muck boots, like it's practically
waiters the old way through this shit.
And it's, I've sang
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
it away.
I've cleaned up our fair shit.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I absolutely hate retarding.
Oh yeah.
Like
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
special place in hell.
Like I know it's there for a reason
and we got, we got shit to do.
But like if there's one more thing I
would just say screw it and we're just
throwing water only like I'm so over it.
Like just, just all the, the stuff that
goes into it and then the components
of, it's not the actual product, it's
just you have to manage it, right?
Yeah.
You have to do all this stuff and
then, you know, we love scoopers.
Who would've thought Nevada
would love scoopers, right?
Yeah.
We had, we had a big year and the scoopers
came in, dude, just like save the day.
Yeah.
Water only.
It hits our mission profile
as well as a direct attack.
You know, if we got mobile attack and
direct line, like instead of building
contingency line across the great basin,
you know, we're just going head on and the
scoopers were just pressing it with us.
Oh yeah.
Then go half wing,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
half out or halfway in, halfway out
on your line and just, just crush it.
And
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
they got like a IR
camera right in the nose.
Oh, they do?
So like, yeah, they actually see
their target through the smoke.
I mean, it's pretty awesome.
Like, Some good dudes.
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I've been, I've seen him over at, uh, the
Midden Bay all the time, and I've seen him
occasionally over in, uh, like Winnemucca.
I've seen him the only
purpose-built aircraft in the fleet.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that's one thing that I
heard, and I didn't know if that was
uh, true or not, but you kinda just
confirmed it there, that the super
scooper is the only firefighting
dedicated aircraft ever designed
and developed ever fucking wild man.
So, as far as like the safety component
of retardant, since we're on it, there's
one thing that I absolutely hate and it's
seeing folks try and get the glory shot.
Do it for the gram, see the seat drop
in the background, and let's talk
about the safety component of Retardant
Drops since we're on the subject.
Mm-hmm.
What's your guys' professional opinion?
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I mean, I don't really have one.
I think, uh, you know, as an air attack,
we're asking people to clear the line,
and that's a, that's a moment where,
yeah, man, you wanna stay out of the way
of that drop just for your own safety.
But if you're being pulled off the line
while a couple seats go through and you
take a picture that's like you, whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I'm talking about like
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
purposely getting hit by the drop.
Oh
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
yeah.
No, that's asinine.
Yeah, that's bad.
I mean, if you get close enough and a
pilot sees you, all they're gonna do is
they're gonna go around and then that just
means we have to bring 'em back into the
orbit or backed up to their maneuvering
altitude and they have to come back
around and work through that when we have.
You know, seats or tankers stacked up
for days waiting to come in and just get
them in and be, you know, effective and
efficient with our retardant operations.
And if, you know, if anyone sees that,
if a lead plant sees somebody out on
the line, they're going around mm-hmm.
Seats on their own, any tanker on
their own, if they see somebody on the
line, if they think they're even close,
they're going around cuz they don't
want to drop on top of any mm-hmm.
Anybody.
Right.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
We get the visibility component for Nevada
cuz usually it's, you know, lower brush
unless you get into like the sub alpine
stuff, you know, but Yeah, exactly.
For the most part.
Yeah.
You get the pilot's got
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
visibility.
Yeah, absolutely.
They're gonna be able to see you, uh,
yellow shirts, helmets, things that
reflect like, they'll, they'll see you
when they get down low cause they're
getting low to, to execute these drops
and then, and they'll go around and
it just, it kind of, it'll ball up
everything that the air attack has
going on with, uh, just one go around.
Right.
So, yeah.
You know, if, if you wanna take
your pictures, stay out of the way.
Yeah, right.
It's fine.
But yeah, that's, uh, don't,
don't get in the way it, and
it's, I mean, it's not good.
It eats your clothes like
we just talked about.
It's gonna burn your skin.
It's, uh, yeah.
I mean it's inevitable at some point.
I mean that you get dropped on
that you aren't in a spot where
you see where they're gonna drop.
Somebody misses a line.
There's, you know, wind drift, you know,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
there's a lot of reasons air tanks
didn't walked on with their traffic.
You didn't through
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
the line.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, there's things that happen, you
know, and sometimes it, it's unavoidable
but we don't want to, definitely
don't wanna make it like a practice.
It.
Yeah, the people are
out there and so, yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Well that's a lot of kinetic
energy coming out of those planes.
I mean, they're hauling ass.
They're what?
What's an average drop for
a seat, like height-wise,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
uh, side, I dunno what, 60 and above.
I don't pilot discretion probably.
I know it's low.
You're supposed, there's things
that, you know, if you look it up,
there's, there's heights that they're
supposed to drop from, and I don't
have them memorized committed memory
answer, but there is a correct answer.
Yes.
I gotta talk to
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
C pilot for like your, your
coverage levels and altitude
and all that stuff, and
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
goes into it.
I mean, have this, I have the
SAS in my backpack that says what
heights they're gonna drop from,
but I do not have that memorized.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
You copy that.
That was an honest answer, Lucas think.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was like, I don't wanna make it up.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah, someone will call bullshit
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
immediately.
Yeah, right.
That's right.
I'm gonna get a call from one of
the other, some other air attack
that's like, you don't know this.
I'm like, man,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
oh dare.
You're disgrace to the aviation
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
program, ladies.
This is April, but drop height
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
is a, is a big deal.
I mean, yeah, we've had some fatalities
in the past couple years and Yeah.
You know, not intentionally.
I mean the, the.
Fatality that we had from Salt
Lake City over in California.
Mm-hmm.
You know, they just didn't
know that they were coming in,
you know, he was a task force.
Right.
Like, when does the
task force get injured?
Right?
Yeah.
Usually they're not even on a line.
Yeah.
And so it's, it's, uh,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
just
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
kidding.
It, it happens.
Right.
You know, I mean, I remember getting
hit like in the black, like I wasn't
anywhere near a line and Yeah.
A seat came over the ridge and just
center punched me and knocked me.
I mean, oh yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Fuck.
It's a life lesson.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Right.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
And, you know, we try to pass that on,
but I know I work, I mean, I worked
with, uh, lead playing groups for the
BLM and the ASM groups, and so I got to
fly last year with those guys and seeing
their flight profile and how they're
controlling the line because one of the,
I mean, a little bit of a difference
between the BLM forest service, all the
BLM pilots are, are fire qualified, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like they're IC three divisions air
tax, and then they go be a pilot.
And so they have a lot of line experience
and so they're looking for that stuff.
They know what's up.
Yeah.
And they're verbalizing it and clearing
the line of air tax, not, and, you
know, it's, it's definitely pretty
on in front of everybody's mind.
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
And I know there's been some
fatalities and it's, uh, even like
secondary fatality causes, right?
So like treetops getting knocked out.
Yeah.
And I know that was in Northern
California, one of the, uh,
mechanisms of, uh, injury there.
But when you're talking about, would you
say nine something pounds per gallon,
which is significantly more than water.
Coming at you at whatever their speed
is and knots and very low to the ground.
It's not like that a retardant has
the opportunity to dissipate and slow
down and reach terminal velocity.
Right.
Have you seen the Forest Service video?
YouTube?
Yeah.
Actually produce that.
Oh yeah.
The,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
uh, s st
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
S two, just like center punching
that, that freaking, yeah.
Was it was an excavation
or an an expedition.
Yeah.
Gnarly.
And it just rips that thing in half.
Like a, like an empty beer can.
Yeah.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I'm seeing the same thing from the crane.
They have a video of a crane
doing the same thing to a vehicle.
So I mean, yeah.
It doesn't matter what, what
you're looking at, you're getting
a thousand gallons of whatever
should put that in one 30.
One 90.
Yeah.
Throwing at you.
I mean, and there's things, when we
talk to Alpine seats, really when
we're talking retardant, you know,
we wanna have a good drop height.
Mm-hmm.
We don't want them too low or
too fast, because then you get
shadowing behind each bush.
Right.
And then if you're in cheek grass and you
get a shadowing behind the sage brush,
it's gonna come right through there.
Right.
Yeah.
So, I mean, if you're on the
ground, you're saying, That.
And you, you look at the retardant
line cause you're gonna be
walking behind them, right.
And helping secure the line.
That's, that's what we want
with retardant application.
Retardant doesn't put out the
fire, you still gotta follow
it up until That's exactly it.
Like number one question
is an error attack.
It's like, all right, we want
you to put retardant here.
And it's like, okay, when are
you gonna have people in there?
Yeah.
Is it now or is it gonna be later?
Right.
So that's going to, you know, again, we
want to be effective and efficient with
retardant application, but if you see that
on the ground that you see, hey, that,
that aircraft looked like it dropped a
little bit low, and then you see shadowing
behind, that's something for sure.
And
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
it's such a tech technical aspect, right?
Like, I've learned a lot, you
know, talking about the retardant,
but the piloting of that, right?
If you're dropping downhill mm-hmm.
And you're dropping 700 gallons, that's
a, that's, you know, 7,000 pounds almost.
And your aircraft's performance
changes dramatically.
Dramatically, yeah.
Immediately.
So you're dropping downhill, the aircraft
wants to shoot up, so you're just sticked
over, you know, and dropping all this,
trying to keep your same height speed.
It's not, it's not as easy as
it looks in the movies, right?
Like hell
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
no.
Doesn't, man, these
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
pilots have, I don't know how they
get into this cockpits of man.
They got some, some, I'm gonna
say they got some balls, man.
Yeah.
It's to fly in mountainous terrain like
this in austere conditions with all
these thermal convection, like things
coming off the fire, battling visibility,
and then try and nail the drop.
That takes a level of skill and
expertise that just is unsurpassed.
Yeah.
It's freaking crazy.
Not every,
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
not all of 'em make it either.
No.
You'll get one season they do one
fire and they're like, I'm done.
Yeah.
And they'll just figure out
how to get the plane back.
I mean, I mean, it's happened
and some are, some are lifers
and they're still doing it.
It's been 30 some years.
So, yeah.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
And seats.
Seats are, in particular, like most
of the large air tankers, you can
be a co-pilot for years, right.
So you are learning on the job.
The seat guy's coming in, they're
single pilot, single cockpit,
and now they're flying ag.
Now they're learning the
task saturation, right?
Like now they have radios, people
are talking and directions and
patterns and prior traffic areas,
and they've been out flying and
spraying ag and coming into this.
And so they do a train up at
their bender or their company.
But once you get on scene and you know,
see a ripping fire, things change.
Right?
Oh yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Well, it's crazy because like aside from
all the mountains flying and stuff like
that, it's, it's, it's, it's hazardous
like any, any piloting, whenever you
step into an aircraft, whether it's
rotor wing or fixed wing, it's dangerous.
I mean, that's, that's what it is.
It's the nature of the game.
But is it a, a very efficient
way, uh, especially in
Nevada where civilization is.
Two, 300 miles away sometimes.
Yeah.
It's great for getting on scene.
Mm-hmm.
It's great for putting out fire
and great for wrapping things up
all in one little package, right?
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it's the way you do it, right?
And I mean, I'm, I, I like the
way Alec had built up the Elco
model and you know, we worked a
lot on starting aircraft earlier.
Mm-hmm.
You know, so they're not Yeah.
Because there's also a, a
rancher component, right?
I mean, we have a lot
of grazing in Nevada.
Oh yeah.
And so if they don't see stuff flying
until 10 or 11 o'clock, they're
like, what are you guys doing?
Right?
And so you're getting pressure from that.
Cause that's burning up, you know,
the grass that they need for feed.
There's a value risk, right?
Yeah.
There's, there's the value there.
And so you're looking at the,
you know, the meteorological
component, the weather's cleaner,
you know, the air's smoother.
Fires not as drastic.
You know, you're dropping
retardant at five o'clock at
night and the, there's a column.
The effectiveness is definitely
not as is, uh, prevalent.
So I think that there's a, there's a, a
definite bonus to hitting it hard earlys.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Oh yeah.
So let's move it back to hell attack.
So you've been a superintendent
for how many years
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
again?
Uh, it was 10 years.
When?
In Las Vegas.
In Las Vegas.
Yep.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
So what are some new things
on the hell attack front?
Like, I know you're kind of out of the
game in that regard and you're kind
of passing that torch, but some new
things that are coming down the pipeline
for, uh, Nevada Hell attack programs.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
You know, I think, uh, Nevada from has
always been a leader in the aviation,
in the aviation program, really?
Uh, I think, I'm trying to think
what year we had a meeting, I think
2000 and go leading into 2015.
So must have been probably, yeah.
2014, somewhere in there.
We, uh, we got asked by the state fire
leadership right at the na, at the state
office to, to come up with a way to
increase our, uh, capacity to bring in
on call aircraft when the condition's
warrant and when the activity warranted.
We're talking like PPL five Yeah.
Or just P four.
Yeah, exactly.
And then when, when it gets tougher to
bring outside resources in and then it's
like, hey, well we can stand up another
helicopter and staff it with our crews.
And, uh, so this, we came
together, everyone listened
to what we had to say, right?
And what we thought was gonna
help us get to that model.
And so increased our staffing to,
uh, on, on a type three helicopter
program, uh, supervisor, two assistants,
two squad leaders, and two leads.
So seven people.
And since then, I, I think at least in Las
Vegas, we added another position, um, to
get to eight career positions on one type
three heli tech crew, which did pft Right.
Um, or p pft and then permanent seasonal.
Right, right.
Yeah.
So, yeah, exactly.
And so, I mean, and that was
what, eight years ago now?
Yeah.
That we've been running that model and.
Using it effectively to help our
staffing bring, just like we were
talking about opportunity wise,
bringing people up through the program.
Mm-hmm.
Levels that you can start, you know,
four or five all the way up to the
nine, assuming people, you know,
move around sometimes, but yeah.
And, and that was, uh, when we went to,
I think that fall when I went to the
heli tech committee meeting and said, you
know, what does Nevada have to report?
I'm like, Hey, we're going to seven career
positions on each of our heli tech crew.
It was like crickets around the rest.
So many states because it was,
yeah, I mean we, we'd at that point
staffed up to like surpassed staffing
on the, all the type two programs.
And, but yeah, it was a, and that was all
directly from support from, from the state
office to, to add those positions on.
So anyway, we just continue that.
We've always had high performance
aircraft and you know, the expectations
from the crew of what our firefighting
looks like in Nevada, the expectations
for our initial attack, how fast
we get off the ground, um, what
we put in our contracts with our
vendors to say, Hey, do you guys have
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
to camp?
If we
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
ask you to camp, you're
gonna camp with us.
And, you know, we've had, we've been
super lucky, um, at least on my tenure
with in Las Vegas, that all of our pilots
were, were always on board when we had.
Uh, Paon and when we had Fire Hawk,
everyone was, was happy to camp.
They, most of 'em came from a
background where they probably did
some surveying where they had to camp.
Yeah.
And uh, you know, it ended up that
the, you know, the pilots became,
I mean, really part of the crew.
I mean, when you're there every day,
all day, fighting, fire, camping
out, eating, everyone's there.
Right.
So they are a hundred
percent part of the crew.
They're not leaving at the end
of the night with the mechanic
to go back to a hotel room.
Yeah.
They're the first ones
up in the morning flying.
They're eating chat with you.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly that.
And they like it.
They get better sleep.
They're not spending an hour in a car
back to, and then battle mountain than
checking in, than trying to find food.
Right.
Shitty hotel food or like
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
the continental breakfast, or it's
not a lot of food opportunities
in like, middle of nowhere Nevada.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
So.
Yeah, exactly.
And then you'll see, um, y you know,
when we're on a, a fire with cruises that
are from outside of the area, our pilots
are flying an hour after they've left
and they're flying an hour before they,
they get there and you start pre-flight.
And it, it really is, it goes back to
like what Alex said, if you get things
up and working at seven o'clock in the
morning, seven 30 in the morning, the
conditions are right to do the best work.
We can fly more people, our performance
is better, the margins are better,
the safety margins are better.
And you're serving the
people on the ground, right?
Yeah.
So our folks that are camping on
the side of the hill from our crew
have that pilot and that aircraft
first thing in the morning to start
supporting whatever they have going on.
And that's, you know, that, that
is absolutely Nevada specific.
We as an air attack flying
around to a bunch of different
regions, different areas.
It's uh, yeah, that is something
that does not occur elsewhere.
Well, it's cool when you have the pilots
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
and mechanics just like sitting
there and like, maybe someone did a
town run during the day, like maybe
they're not on the, the, the load.
Maybe they're sitting back at camp
and, you know, doing, I don't know,
cargo or whatever and they have the
opportunity to go back to town and
get some like food, some fresh food.
You know, sitting out there
barbecuing with your crew and
the pilot and the mechanic.
You get to learn a lot about them.
And I've never experienced that anywhere
else in, uh, the United States with
very, this I guess hell attack, uh,
crews that I've detailed besides Nevada.
And I think that's something that's very
unique about the, uh, the pilots and I
guess the, uh, the folks that you attract
for the vendors is they're willing to just
like sleep in the dirt, eat food with you.
Yeah.
You know, drink cowboy coffee in
the morning and get back to work.
And it's really cool to see that and
you develop a certain rapport with
your pilot and that communication
and that relationship with them.
And I think it becomes really good in
a operational context when you're out
on the line and a fire shipment getting
and you're trying to communicate with
your pilot to punchline, you know, it's,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
it's pretty damn
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
cool.
Well I gotta throw out a service
announcement here cuz I've actually
worked outside of Nevada cause
there's a couple other locations.
Weaver Mountain, salt Lake.
I'll get after it, but I
see what the culture is.
There's a shift and you definitely
set a tone by, you know, initial
T is our, our primary mission.
And we're gonna fight fire, you know,
like sitting around doing nothing.
And so that culture shift
goes into the pilots as well.
And so I think all those crews
definitely take on that mantra.
Mm-hmm.
And look for those type of employees.
And those type of employees become
management and it just sticks around.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It's just great opportunity.
I mean, there's pilots that I haven't
flown or like, haven't been on a
contract with us in eight years
that I still talk to every week.
And it's from that like,
they're with us every day.
Right.
And they, they still check in
and they're, or pilots that have
just left in the last two years.
You, and it's the same thing.
We the same thing if you just talk to 'em
every week and it's just that opportunity,
it opens for honest communication.
Right.
And that's the most important
thing you can have with any part
of your, I mean, it's like crew
resource management number one.
It's like being able to have open,
honest communication with your pilot.
Right.
And if something's not going right or you
want to fix something, if that person has
spent all that time with you, it's easy.
Yeah.
You're just like, Hey man,
come over here for a second.
We gotta talk.
Yeah.
The egos
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
are taken outta the equation.
Pretty much.
Yeah, exactly.
It's
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
like, oh, okay.
Right.
And I'm not saying that other crews
don't develop that if their pilots leave
or, you know, everyone's different.
Right.
It's the way contracting goes.
It's the way a model goes.
Right.
Because there are different areas where
that, that may or may not make sense.
Right.
Yeah.
But you know, it's just from my
experience is solely Nevada and.
That's it.
That, that's what I've seen.
But if you ask
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
every heli attack here, I
mean I grew up in it too.
You have your favorite pilots and
they're all that model, right?
Like you never, your favorite pilot's,
never the guy that's like, Hey man, I
got my Marriott reports points going on.
I need to get back.
You know, there's no Marriott
and Paddle Mountain, so,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
no, that's right.
Truth,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
the seven o'clock shifts is, you know,
our culture shift in aviation, but
also the ics and a lot of times right.
With ICS out there, don't,
they're like, EH, aviation, they
don't come on till nine o'clock.
Mm-hmm.
But starting to spread that word,
especially in Nevada, like, hey,
if you want something over your
fire at seven 30, let me know.
Yeah.
Let me know that night so I can get a
hold of Lucas and his pilot and say,
come on at seven, they want you over
the fire at 7 45 and let's go to work.
Yeah.
Cause and maybe there's not work.
Maybe Lucas gets over there and is like,
yeah man, it's, everything looks good.
Perfect.
No harm, no foul.
Lucas comes back and we're
ready, um, for the next one.
But I've had several times where, you
know, bring on aircraft early and then
the ic, we didn't let them know like, Hey,
they're on early and ready to go for you.
We can have 'em there.
So yeah, Leonard ics know
like, Hey, we can, I.
We can come on earlier in trying to change
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
that.
You bring up a good point there,
because traditionally, like when
I was going, going up through the
ranks, I guess, uh, you always see
like the, the ground operational
briefing is like oh 6, 0 7, right?
And then aviation operations is that
briefing is always at like nine.
It's always after the ground operations.
So there's been a shift in that
culture and that, I guess operation to
expand the capabilities and putting,
you know, rotors in the sky or, you
know, fixed wings in the sky over
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
fires.
If we could fix that before
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
we retire, I'd, I'd feel
like it was success.
I mean, just knowing that heavies
don't fly till 10, you know, and
just knowing the heat of the day
and how it's changing on the hill.
Yeah.
To me it's just, it's crazy.
And we're still in that same model
after so long, especially when you
talk to the pilots in the aircraft.
They're like, dude, I'd much rather
be hitting a known fire, you know,
at first light than underneath a
column at six, seven o'clock chasing.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
And
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
most we don't, our pilots don't complain.
They wanna fly early in
the morning when it's
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
calm
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
and the risk is when they time out.
Right?
Yeah.
Cause they only have eight hours.
Yeah.
So if you start 'em at seven, there's
a good chance they're gonna be done by
three and then you have a heat of the day.
So it's a balance.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
You gotta look
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
at that fight
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
to fire you have.
Yeah, get ahead of the curve too,
but balancing your times, it's, yeah,
that's a lot of, there's a lot of
tricks and, uh, interesting stuff
going on with aviation management.
I started as, uh, doing my helicopter
manager stuff with, uh, Bridgeport
at one point, and I never understood
the complexities that go into that.
And it's like the times the load
counts, the radio programming, you gotta
manage your crew and the pilot's times.
It's, it's pretty complicated.
And get, if you don't get on top of it,
you can get out of control really quick.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
So I was told, uh, I was told by
manager trainees, or if you turn a
fresh manager out with one of those
type three aircraft, I'm like, if
you, if you just fight fire first,
everything else will figure itself out.
Right.
Just focus on that.
Don't focus on managing the aircraft and
everything that goes, like the paperwork.
We can catch that stuff up.
Right?
Delegate, man, fight the fire, fight fire.
Mm-hmm.
You can figure everything else out.
Yeah.
Because that was the biggest thing,
you know, and any, anytime you
specialize, I think, and it doesn't
matter if it's in fire or anything
else in your life, you can lose
focus on some of the other things.
Right.
So you like start rabbit
holding down, man, I'm a man.
I don't remember being a fresh manager.
Like, I got all this stuff.
I got my manager, kid, all this,
all these things I have to do.
Right?
23 book.
Yeah.
23 books and, and yeah.
And then sometimes you forget,
you're like, oh man, I need
to do this, this, and this.
And then it's like, oh wait, but
oh man, we're firefighters first.
And then if you remember,
yeah, just it, it took a while.
You know, it takes anyone when
they first get stuff done a
while to, to remember that.
And then everything else, like I said,
everything else will figure itself out.
Just fight fire.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
There we go.
So one thing I wanna kind of point
out about Nevada Aviation the Hell
attack program is I've noticed that
they, like the whole program plays
very well with others, especially
when they're doing up staffing with
like c w n ships, uh, all that stuff.
Like you got a bunch of the
ships running around Nevada.
It seems like
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
you are
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
very willing to like call militia folks
to bolster the forces that we have with C
W N, the C W N program around the state.
I mean, I was
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
in Oregon doing my apprenticeship ship
crap, uh, stuff and you gave me a call,
I was like, Hey man, what are you doing?
I'm like, piling
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
sticks.
Cause it's, I, I've worked in
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
practically a rainforest,
so you called me up and uh,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I've noticed that you guys pull outta
staters a lot to staff up c w n ships.
So let's explain
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
that whole program.
Yeah.
So I think really it just goes back to
we, you know, you start bringing people
out or you're helping out other places,
you know, sending people out to the
southeast every year to help them and
then they reciprocate and send out and
then they come commit to Nevada and,
you know, the fire fighting's fun, like
fighting fire in the great basin's.
Fun, you know, it's different than
fighting fire in like California or in,
in big timber country because you get a
fire that's like, it gets after it for
a couple days and about the time you're
like, I'm ready to go somewhere else.
It's time to go somewhere else.
Yeah, exactly.
The fire's out, you get to go
move on to the next fun fire.
And so people enjoy that, you know?
Yeah.
They get to come out and we push
people to work on qualifications.
You send people out too?
Yeah.
Send people out.
Push people to work on qualifications,
uh, trade people back and
forth between the other crews.
I mean, I think each crew that we
have in Nevada, the three exclusive
use crews all have employees
that have moved up and come over.
And laterally Ian, who took my job lateral
down from Elco as an assistant to my
assistant 16, and now he runs a crew.
And I, my other assistant Adam, he
come down from Eley hell attack.
And it's like, we send people
off to different, different
crews at Joe, Joe Bradshaw.
One of, uh, our seasonals
is a perm on Eley now.
And it's, yeah.
People just move around.
Mm-hmm.
But in the state you'll see a
lot of that in the state and
fewer people that actually leave.
You know?
I was
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
just gonna say that I think that
Nevada's aviation is huge on that.
Supporting the people that work here to
move them up, move 'em around, get 'em
out, um, you know, bring other people in.
And we have like, we have
big time support for that,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
so, but it's a
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
balance, you know.
Now I can speak to it too.
I mean, the reason our guys like
working here is cuz there's not a,
uh, imbalance of resources, right?
And so we're not bringing in
outside helicopters until our
guys are all working, you know?
Yeah.
There's, there's a, making sure
that the resources we have are doing
the things that we ask them to do.
And then balance that with, you
know, outside resources coming
in and the workloads and it's uh,
it's just another component of
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
it.
But yeah.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
Nobody likes another
helicopter showing up and
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
taking your fires.
Get off my Absolutely.
I think, uh, you can fly number two po.
That was my ia.
Yeah.
Both, uh, sing and al fielded
many calls for me about the phone
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
lights up the hell.
Um, I think, you know, all three crews
do have some sort of connection, whether
it's with folks in the Southeast, um,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
and bringing those people
over and then us returning it.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
And it,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
that definitely helps in recruiting.
And I know that, you know, with
our crews is they're firefighters
and that's what they wanna do.
That's where their knowledge is.
So being able to get them
out early this time of year.
Yeah.
When we're burning down in Florida
and South Carolina, like getting them
out and doing what they wanna do.
Making money.
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Like it's
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
huge for recruiting and they can just
tell, you know, they just tell one person,
maybe that person tells another, and the
next year we get two more applicants and
maybe that's two more than we had before.
So those connections that, you know,
Lucas, when he was running, the crew
made and Eric runs Elco and, and
Walker and Neely just help, I think.
But they're recruiting.
We're still.
Need some folks, but that
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
helps.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
And then one, I think that's the federal
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
firefighting agencies in a hall.
It doesn't matter if you're
yellow or green team.
That's, we all
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
need people still.
Yeah.
You just gotta look
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
for those honey halls that
haven't been plucked yet.
Right.
So when you show up in Elco
and there's two new slow
talkers, you're like, oh yeah.
Some new people from the south.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
And, uh, we're Nevada bm.
One cool thing we're doing
this year is we set up, uh, an
exchange program with Alaska.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Ooh.
Yeah.
So we're gonna see who's Boozman
at, Hey, where's, uh, Jamie?
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Where was our
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Jamie at Boozman was sitting over there.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
He was cut
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
off.
So we're gonna send people up
there, um, positions and folks
to Alaska needs, uh, one engine.
We'll probably be setting up that way.
Nice.
Um, they'll spend about 30 days,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I believe
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
is where we're at, 30
days driving up there, and
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
then maybe even longer.
But anyway, they'll be up there and
then when season's done, Alaska's
gonna return it and we'll kind of,
we'll be able to say, Hey, here's
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
the positions we need.
You know, we're, we
need some dispatchers or
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
helicopter managers,
engine bosses, whatever.
Mm-hmm.
Heck of this, whatever.
Yeah.
And return that.
So we started that this year and,
um, there's, there's some interests
of folks that are gonna do it.
So, Another cool thing I think we're
doing in Nevada BBL m is we got that
going this year and we'll continue
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
it I'm sure for years to come.
So, yeah, because that's
a, I mean, that's huge.
Cuz if you, going back to recruitment,
like those opportunities to do
something different than Nevada
provides, I think is huge.
Whether it's on the heli tech
cruise, uh, the tanker bases or
whatever else you have going on.
I mean, that the number one questions,
I mean, I hired for 10 years, right?
And so the number one questions you
got from anyone who called asking for
information about your crew was, Hey,
how can I develop qualifications?
Mm-hmm.
Do you guys support that?
Yeah.
How many hours of overtime did
the seasonals get last year?
And do you have housing?
Yeah.
And those are, and those are the
three questions you always get.
And so if we can provide that, and
we always do fairly well, right?
Between sending people out for
assignments or different diversification
of whatever they want to work on.
I said, I didn't care if Sadie
wanted to go work on tanker based
stuff or if somebody wants to
go out and work on air support.
Right?
Yeah.
We'll support it.
No one's ever there for the entire season.
Right.
Except usually me.
Like I was always there the same.
Yeah.
I mean, except when I started
really hammering on air attack.
But, uh, you know, I, I
would stay for the most part.
I liked being around the crew.
So, but yeah, just filter people out.
You get, you look at your
staffing sheet, you plan it
out and you're like, all right.
I can give up three people.
You, you and you.
You're gonna go do this,
uh, yeah, two seasonals.
You're gonna go try out, uh, Boise's
Black Hawk and see how that works out.
And we'll take Boise, uh, manager trainee
from Boise, hell attack because they don't
fly in the front seat of the Black Hawk.
Give 'em some experience in
the front seat of the aircraft.
Right.
And it's, those are the kind
of things that you just did.
Never thought about that before,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
but Yeah.
You can't because they require a P I C
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
and a co-pilot.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So that was, we had that
role in chief too, right?
Nope.
Not on the, not on, Nope.
Not for them on the hell tech crew.
But yeah.
So we had that working out for
a couple years or that I was
there and just trade 'em off.
Give people different experiences, let
people see different things and it's,
you know, that's what keeps people coming
back cuz they know that they're not gonna
spend the entire summer with the exact
same people doing the exact same thing.
Yeah.
It's refreshing.
It
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
keeps your, it keeps the
motivation going I think.
And you don't stagnate within the crew.
I mean, sometimes you see that,
especially if it's like a slow year,
but if you're having an ability, if,
if it is a slow year, you still have
the ability to pu push people out.
Right.
If time and place.
Obviously if it's warranted
you can still do that and
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
have that, that ability.
So, so
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
let's talk about type three s.
Like I'm a huge fan of type three
s probably, cuz that's what I
have the most experience with.
With mm-hmm.
You and everybody else that I've
worked for in the state of Nevada.
Um, why are type three lights
like the go-to ship, which is cool
because they're great performance,
but also you're not stuck in.
Hella base doing cargo missions to
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
death.
Well, that's it, man.
One of my pros, it is the
NextGen aircraft, right?
Mm-hmm.
That in our fire fleet, it is
the NextGen aircraft, the B
three E models, four seven hps.
Mm-hmm.
I, that's it.
They're the newest production aircraft.
I mean, the one we most recently that
I worked on, I mean, that helicopter
was manufactured in like 2016.
Yeah.
Right.
You're not rolled onto our
contract with 35 hours on it.
That's it.
Yeah.
35.
35, yeah.
Yeah.
Not
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
3,500.
Exactly.
Some of these antiquated airframes.
Mm-hmm.
You know, in Vietnam, you
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
know, with the modifications to both
the 4 0 7, whether it's the HP or the e
model of Blr kits, like the performance
you get out of those, it, it really, I
mean, it changes what you should think
about, whether you're talking about
light aircraft in Nevada, it's perfect.
You can set 'em down in small, small
places, or now with step programs are
perfect sliders being able to get out
the hover entry, hover exit stuff.
I mean, it's just, they're,
they're built to perform in the
environment that we work in, right?
Mm-hmm.
So they're utility
aircraft, they're awesome.
Um, and that's it.
It's really like you're,
you have fresh new aircraft.
They're supported by manufacturers
that are so manufacturing
those aircraft, or, yeah.
So you don't have to get like
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
off the shelf, like go to
Craig and auto parts for
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
some 1960s airframe.
Right, exactly.
And you know, everything has their place.
But I think last, so last summer I was
there attacking a fire outta Stanley
Idaho and the Air Ops for the day gave
me a call and said, Hey, we got type
one, here's our compliment of aircraft.
Right?
But this, uh, so Bell two 14, which
is classified as a type one aircraft,
they're like, they're sitting here, but
they're with how haunted it is today
in the, they can get off the Tor Mac.
They're like, they're allowables
are, you're pulling more water
with the A star in the four seven
we have here than they can pull.
And so it's like the, the things that we
want to let people know, it's like it's
an automatic, you're like, Hey, I want
type one or type two for bucket work.
And I mean, anymore, uh, we, when I
left, before I left the crew, we, we
rolled with a 210 gallon Bambi max.
Bucket.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, that's 40 gallons less than what
you're getting out of a, you know, what's
like a two 40 bucket on a type two?
Yeah.
I wanna say so.
And are you gonna be able to tell
the difference between 30 gallons?
No, no, no.
Good luck putting water too.
Yeah.
The type three
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
bucket can fit
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
in all our dip sites.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
So I've, I've seen some dip sites
that were real questionable,
like scummy cow ponds.
Of course we had permission
to use 'em and everything like
that, but it's just like a hole.
It, it's like, it's like imagine
putting something into a five
gallon bucket and you're still
pulling water out of this thing.
So definitely see the utility within a
star or the 4 0 7 like you're saying.
Um, yeah, they're, they're freaking great.
They're agile and they're light.
They have a lot of altitude and a lot
of heat, uh, that they can tolerate.
Yeah.
It's, they're freaking awesome.
And you're not sting
cargo all freaking days.
No.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
And managing a crew, I mean, there's
a whole component of the size of the
crew, the footprint of the vehicles,
you know, what is, what is our mission?
That's the first question, right?
Our mission is initial
attack fast and hard.
Yeah.
And so we're gonna go with a model
that fits out the best, the best
helicopter, a good size crew, you
know, limited footprint with vehicles
to get on scene as fast as possible.
Um, nothing against the type
one s and type two s is just
not, it's not the mission here.
You know, those gets sucked up in
a large scale, long duration fires,
extended attack stuff, and then that
takes away from our initial attack.
Primary emission.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Right.
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
That's another thing too,
is uh, a lot of people are.
Touting the whole Repeller thing,
which I definitely see the utility for.
Repellers, especially in Big Timber,
you can get into small pockets.
There's, they serve their purpose, right?
Mm-hmm.
But here we don't have
a lot of big timber.
Not a lot of it.
We do have it in certain
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
areas, but not a lot of it.
That's where the type
three kind of comes in.
So
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
as far as like shuttling people
or getting into tight spots, you
could still have that ab avail, that
availability with the type three ships,
especially with the STEP program.
So let's expand on the STEP program
and like the utility behind that,
because from my understanding,
only region four does step, or am I
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
taking that wrong?
Is it only Nevada or, so it's truly,
well, it's only the blm, right?
Yeah.
So if we refer to regions, like the
Forest Service doesn't do it at all.
So Zero Zero Park Service, they
got the Repel Park service does it.
Right.
Short haul too, right?
True.
Yes.
The Park Service does it as well.
But, so this was all the, the brainchild
of Patrick Kenny, really from Salt Lake.
He mm-hmm.
Put this, yeah, he put
this, I love that dude.
Yeah.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
I remember when he came to my desk in
the office was like, Hey, I got an idea.
What if we did, did he have his guitar?
No, he had a shake
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
shaker.
Oh, okay.
Oh yeah, sure.
He's like, what if we try
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
this?
Uh, just hover, hover exits, you know?
Cuz we were looking at RAs
and stuff like fast roping.
Mm-hmm.
Over at the SF base in like,
uh, south, south Salt Lake.
And he's like, this is a lot of extra
work and training and equipment.
We could just step out,
you know, and like.
The Kardashian guys do it
in Alaska all the time.
So we went down that rabbit trail
and like when you hear the sales
pitch, you're like, especially
compared to like repelling, right?
With the, the recurrency training
and all the towers and everything
that you have that goes into that
you can practice step when you come
home from a mission on a curb, right?
Like it's just, you need
to do it out a part.
Yeah.
It's just an super easy, easy Yeah.
No, turned in low cost in this country,
in environment and terrain and vegetation.
It absolutely makes sense.
I mean,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
it's pretty cool.
Yeah.
I mean if you've seen, I mean really,
so he did all this work, right?
And then he and I started talking
to, to, I wanted to add it as well.
Mm-hmm.
And then us adding it to
became Nevada adding it.
And so, well two crews ended up doing it.
My Las Vegas and Elco.
But uh, yeah, I mean
it was his grandchild.
We, so all the plans were already put
together, everything was ready to go
basically off the shelf when we, when
we got involved and turned it into,
or started as emergency extraction
only, and, uh, expanded into when we
started it, they gave us permission.
It was the same year that, uh, PK got
permission to go operationally as well.
And so when we came in, we, uh,
we had some discussions with the
national office that they wanted.
They were like, well, maybe we start
emergency only, uh, in your first year.
And I was like, well, That
doesn't make any sense.
Why would we go in to do something
that's gonna be a rare event when
it's something that we can use
operational, regularly operational now.
Yeah.
And so they gave us permission to to
go direct into operational as well.
And I mean if you've walked around
the Great Basin and you've seen some
of the like old growth sage brush.
Yeah.
I mean those are the places that we land.
And you, if you've walked around
an A star, you know that tail
rotor is like hip level to me.
Yeah.
And I'm like five eight on a good day.
Right.
So, uh, yeah.
I mean it just takes away all of that.
Like leaning out the door,
looking back at your tail rotor.
Hey man, is it clear just to tuck
it between two sage brush when i's
dead, we can just stay this high,
get out and people are on the line.
Yeah.
Getting to work and it's uh, and
then on top of that, the extraction
possibilities where you can pull
somebody off the side of the hill without
landing at all and Elco Elk o's done
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
that.
I've See I was on that fire where they
did, and I'm not gonna name the fire,
I don't want to give out too much
information, but it was out there in
eastern Nevada and I believe you were on
the fire as well, or you were incoming,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
maybe your crew maybe.
I'm not sure if they
were, I wasn't with them.
I was with Bridgeport and Elco was
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
next to us and I was like, I.
Timing out on my role, and then I'm
here in radio traffic for emergency
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
medical.
So Elco got the, the mission and
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
they, from my understanding,
it sounded like they did a
step extraction for the mm-hmm.
The person.
So, and it was a success.
I mean, that right there is
invaluable for rapid extraction
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
of patients.
Exactly.
An expanded, uh, from us, I think in Elko
and Salt Lake to Moab and Moki and St.
George.
Mm-hmm.
Also do it.
And, uh, yeah.
I mean it's something
that's, it's super helpful.
Uh, team Fire is the one thing that from
the inception of this program that we want
to do void was being like short hauled.
Yeah.
Towards like, Hey, we're keeping
you on this, uh, campaign
fire because you can do this.
And it's like, no, this is a tool,
but we are an initial attack resource.
Yeah.
I don't wanna sit here for however
long on, on the chance that
this this'll happen because it's
such a, it's such a quick Yeah.
It's such a quick, um, process to, to be
able to make that change over, to set up
the aircraft to do an extraction that it's
like we don't need to, we hit the perfect
topography and fuel type for it too.
And if you think that you need
the type of tools, I mean, there's
better ones in step, right?
So it's that there's hoist
order hoist aircraft.
We'll give order an
actual
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
short haul, we'll give up the qual
if that's what you're gonna say.
That
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
was it then That was absolutely
to, to my FMO at the time when I
was still supervising the crew was
like, if this starts happening,
I'll, I'm gonna stop the program.
Just gonna wash my hands.
Won't do it anymore because that's
not what any of us want to do.
Yeah.
Everyone will
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
leave.
And that's the thing too, with
short haul, I mean, it serves its
purpose, especially in like s timber.
Mm-hmm.
Pacific Northwest, you know, steep
shitty canyons where you can't
get an A star in, you know, take
more time to walk down the hill.
Um, but the reconfigure on a short haul
mission is pretty substantial timeline.
I wanna say.
I wanna say what, it takes probably a
half hour for everything cuz you have to
go insert a crew, you have to reconfigure
the ship, insert the crew, reconfigure
again, and then do your extraction.
Right.
That's kind of
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
the, that sounds right.
The rough
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
overview of what
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
goes on with Steph.
I mean, you drop one person off
to brief some p one or two people
to brief some people, and the, the
configuration of the aircraft is like,
all right, we're take a seat, hold up
the seats real quick, and that's it.
Yeah.
Hey, slide up a stretcher
in the back and that's good.
Good to go.
Come in and they're off the line.
Yeah.
Super quick.
There's
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
also a way to like, you know, make
sure we are taking care of our own.
You know, there's, there's
a lot of instances.
If you've been around heli tech long
enough, there's power on landing, right?
You're in a rock pile log deck
and your pilot's keeping power on.
That's by definition in the hover exit.
Oh yeah.
You're full performance.
And so our guys doing for
safety and the pilot knows that
that's the best thing to do.
And so how do we from, you know,
Give them them, the, the right
tools to, to do that safely.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
Back it up with policy
because Yeah, absolutely.
There's every helicopter manager on
a light has been in that spot mm-hmm.
Where it's like, you sit down and
you both skids down and you look
at your pilot and he's like, I'm
not go, I'm not going to idle.
And you're like, okay.
Yeah, you're,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
yeah.
Settling in.
Yeah.
It's, it's, it's gnarly.
I mean, I've only probably seen that look
once or twice from a pilot and nothing's
said, geez, this is kind of an agreement.
But we don't talk about that part.
But as far as like the, uh, medical,
uh, program as a whole, I think that
Nevada is pretty, uh, boundary pushing
as far as like the expanded scope
of practice, all that other stuff.
And in combination with aviation assets
that we have and the hotshot crews
having, you know, X amount of EMTs.
And then now the engine program, like I
think every engine has a MT or a majority
of the engines have an EMT out there.
And like, I know the
crews have to have 'em.
Now, if I'm understanding that policy
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Right.
I don't know
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
if everyone does.
All of our vehicles have that E M
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
T bag.
Yeah.
It's a standardized kit
that's standardized.
Everybody knows what's in it.
So if
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
you were on the heli tech crew and
your m t, we could fly to any mm-hmm.
Nevada B om resource grab.
A bag that is in there.
So that is standard.
Um, a lot of our crews, heli
tech crews do have EMTs, our
hotshot crews, or Vegas Valley.
I'm sure does.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not sure about each engine,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
but I know Carson City has a, a shit ton
of EMTs and they're really pushing out
that EMT and even EMT Advance, which we,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
the basics here in
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Nevada can almost operate as an
E M T advanced, just with their
protocols and their medical direction.
But if they're in advance, it's even
more, it's, its, it's even better.
I mean, you can't really use a lot
of the stuff that it, they have
access to for medical protocol.
Mm-hmm.
But it's just another
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
tool in a toolbox.
I mean, where it's come from for my
first year in fire in Elay mm-hmm.
20 years ago to where it is now,
it's like, I was there, man, it's
like light years my first year.
Yeah.
Eley Nevada and Yeah.
It's, it's just light years
from what, what we had them.
Oh yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
So as far as the medical stuff, um,
goes, let's transition into other
stuff, like when bad stuff happens.
We talked about mental health and
how we've been expanding the aviation
program in the state of Nevada with both,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
um, the air attack platforms, the hell
attack platforms, the tanker base,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
uh, side of things.
We've always had this like hot topic
of mental health, and now when is it
gonna become like a common thing or.
I, I, I guess, let me reframe this.
I, I, I think that it's becoming
less of a buzzword and a catchphrase
and it's actually becoming into
like a normalized thing for us.
So let's expand on the
topic of mental health.
What are some other things
that we're doing out
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
there?
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
Well, I think you saw it
yesterday in the breakout.
Sorry, sat in the cruise and hell
attack had a breakout and then
their, the uams and dispatch.
So I wanted to both, but
to hear the crews talk.
Mm-hmm.
You know, when we talked about
mental health really gave me some
warm and fuzzies, you know, the, the
dialogues going on, you know, the
ideas that we've discussed, you know,
we talked about good, bad, whatever.
Um, but to hear them from their mouth and
like talking about situations and things
that they do, uh, like jps got thing,
he'll ask questions in the morning and
say, you know, we come back at night.
Uh, so they're, they're
always, they're dissecting it.
Like they understand that they're
getting better, they're treating their
people better, and they understand
that they'll have 'em longer and help
foster them and, and, and get them up
to, to be in good leaders themselves.
So I'm pretty stoked on it, and
I think it's been one of the
more rewarding aspects of, of my
career is the whole mental health
transition and the culture shift.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
That is not a buzzword anymore.
It's not just like, no, no.
It's, it's the norm.
Yeah, it's the norm.
I think there's a big shift in it too, as
far as like just having the conversation.
I think people are more vocal and
that's a change that I've seen
in the very short amount of time.
I mean, the cumulative experience
in this room has gotta be
pushing 125 years of fire, right.
With all of us put together.
With the time that we've all been into
fire service, though, I think that
we're very fortunate to, this is just my
perspective, that we're very fortunate
to see like the old school and that
transition, that transition phase and
into the new school of operations.
And for better or for worse,
I think it's getting better.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, there's a time and place
for like the old school, shut the
fuck up and dig kind of mentality.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Don't get me wrong.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
That's absolutely the truth though.
Like, there's this job's
still fucking hard, right?
It is.
You're not gonna make it easier by
being soft on, you know, your days
off with your wife and your kids.
Like when you get back here,
it's still gonna be a hard job.
It's still gonna suck at times.
Yeah.
And we're all eating the
same turd sandwich though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like, bottling up all your
shit and not processing it is not
gonna make you better in 20 years.
So No, it makes you hazardous.
You're not gonna be a great employee.
Like, where does the leadership
all come back into if we're not
figuring out how to, like, take
care of that and manage that better?
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah, well it's like trying to
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
fill, uh, up already full
cup, full of more water.
I mean, it, you don't have any
room, it's just gonna flow,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
right?
And it
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
seeing
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
like the rates of divorce,
the alcoholism, the binge
drinking,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
all of the explosive personality
traits as a culture that we have.
I mean, I, I wanna see
potentially explosive, right?
Some people manage it better than others.
Other people are very self-destructive.
And I think that, uh, it's that
burden, that mental health burden is
actually taking a turn for the better.
So, I don't know.
What, what are you guys' thoughts on that?
What have you personally seen
over the course of your careers?
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
Yeah, they, uh,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
you guys, there's a lot of stories.
There's a lot
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
of stories from when I first
started, probably we all do, but
it's changed, uh, you know, 360
degrees from when I started in 2000.
Mm-hmm.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
99.
Um,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
and you know, we go around pre-season,
post-season with clinicians and, you
know, management staff, and we have
breakouts, whether that's with dispatch
or the whole engine program or hell,
tech crew, hotshot crews, whatever.
We're, we're taking that time.
And it's always uncomfortable at first.
Um, and Jeremy was on a couple
of the first times we did it.
Mm-hmm.
And I participated a lot
last year driving around.
Um,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
and it's,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
yeah, I mean, the conversations are
great and then when we come to something
like this and then they're, all folks
are already talking about it themselves.
Like, you know,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
it's
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
like I've gone out on roles afterwards.
Cause I, I, I swore I was
never gonna do cism again.
I just didn't wanna bury
everybody else's like drama.
Right.
Well, it's hard, man.
That's not what I
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
do.
Right.
It's like never trust a
therapist without a therapist.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
Right, right.
When you spend a lot of time with them and
then you start to like, connect with ones.
And so like, there was a cism
in, uh, Bonneville and Silver
State were all out in the field.
We spent so much time with them,
like doing our, our, our tours did
like that Cism went like smoothly.
We were out in the field
with 'em on the line.
Like it just.
It worked.
Right?
And so like you start to drink the
Kool-Aid that way you're like, oh man.
Repetition.
It's just like everything else, right?
Mm-hmm.
And uh, how do you, I mean,
it's like any other culture too.
Like if a vet deals guys are coming up and
saying like, Hey man, watch out for this.
I'm on my third marriage, you
know, my kids don't talk to me.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not in any pictures in the hallway.
Do it different.
I don't know what the hell that
is, but just do it different.
Right.
And that's kind of where it started.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
dunno, everybody, it's good to
see that the crews talk about it.
You know, go to Melissa, sea base,
um, you know, they're, we do the red,
yellow, green and we might not all
use that, but they're talking about
things and doing their own thing.
And so I,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I've seen that change.
Kinda like the mental health
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
gar.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
it's like the crew were talking
about it yesterday, you know, like
everybody thought it was a joke.
I thought it was so dumb when I heard
it, you know, I'm like, oh sweet.
Another checklist, right?
Yeah.
And then we started using it
in our team, in our office.
And it's a great, like, even
if it is a joke, dude, I'm red.
You know, like, how are you
gonna get back to that green?
You know?
And your boss is like, dude,
take a couple days off.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Okay, now that's a big thing right there.
The time off
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
man.
Yeah.
Right.
Well we have the ability to do
it right Cause we've managed
and changed the programs.
Mm-hmm.
To accommodate that though.
But time off thing, man, it's,
especially when you get in into
the point where you're having
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
kids,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
you're got a wife, all that stuff, you
know, the two and a half kids, you know,
white picket fence kind of lifestyle.
Mm-hmm.
It's really important to
find that work life balance.
And I think that we're
actually realizing it finally.
So well, I think it
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
all boils down from leadership and
them supporting it and going down to
the cruise and the tanker bases and
wherever, you know, wherever they go
down to and kind of see that it's okay.
Like we can open up, we can talk about
this, we can see what's going on.
And like you said, how to get from red
to green and figure it out and mm-hmm.
So
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I think that's huge.
I just think, uh, talking about it
and being receptive and willing to
be vulnerable, that's the big thing.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Cuz like you said, you have to be
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
a pretty hard ass person
to do this job at times.
And like the job doesn't stop and most
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
of the time you go to the therapist
when you're like in the red, right?
Yeah.
It's already too late.
Yeah.
The best therapists are your homies.
Right.
Your buddies work with like that.
That's the whole goal is like,
man, you need to talk to get
that shit off and like, you know,
work through that with somebody.
And especially if your supervisor can
listen and ask the right question about
what you need to get back to something.
That's what really what we're
promoting with the leadership of it.
Oh yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
And then it's compounded all these
like things that happen on the line,
the stress of being away from, uh,
your family, the, the financial thing.
There's another one that's gonna
be talked about and yeah, you
can throw money at a problem.
It's gonna not solve everything,
but it's sure is all gonna help cuz.
I've literally been homeless
working this job, so just couch
surfing or paratroop into my buddy's
house, you know, so, and it sucks.
It sucks that you can't afford, uh,
to, you know, you have to choose
between, oh, do I get my knee looked
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
at or do I put food on in my stomach?
You know, my buddy and I lived
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
in a storage unit, birdie.
Birdie, and I lived in a
storage unit for two summers.
Yeah.
Like, it's just, you get by, right?
But you didn't know any different, and
you didn't know how to like, say anything.
So you just just grain bear.
Just grain and bear, right?
And like, then you start to see
suicides 20 years later in the
same age group, and you're like,
oh man, I need to reassess my, my
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
life here.
Yeah.
But there's something, so I, I was
talking about this with Grant the other
day or yesterday, and, uh, there's
something kind of enchanting and like
attractive about that dirt bag lifestyle.
This, especially if it's a young
man and woman's sport, that that
lifestyle is very attractive to where
you're pretty much a nomadic, right?
Just a firefighting dirt bag.
But once you hit that GS six, seven
level, when people start settling
down and wanting to have kids and
all that stuff, it, it becomes real
eye-opening, real goddamn quick
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
as far as
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
well dirt packing in the summer
with your buddies, and then dirt
bagging in the winter by yourself.
Like two different
dirtbag versions, right?
Yes.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
One's a
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
lot cleaner than the other.
But yeah, I mean, I think there's
gonna be some changes on the horizon.
I hope that it's implemented well and
it alleviates some of that financial
stress, because that's gonna be
a, a point of burden that a lot of
people are constantly thinking of.
I mean, shit, if I could have
health insurance year round
as a temporary seasonal, that
would be like the dream job.
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
That'd be huge.
But
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
if you could take one
less assignment right.
Two weeks more at home, like, there's
just, there's all those little frequencies
and, and really promoting how you
do it, but you can't do it unless
you're stable some, you know, way.
Mm-hmm.
So the pay increases, the, the
benefits it all, it's all there.
I mean, it's, there's so many different
components to all these issues.
Oh yeah.
Whether it's staffing and complexities
at air bases, the l attack, the
air attack to pay, and it all
feeds back to mental health and
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
leadership and No, it's
like, it's cyclic, right?
So, I mean, all these
things play into each other.
It's like the infinity Venn diagram of
things that we need to do to survive,
yet shit that we're bitching about yet.
It's stuff that makes us happy.
So, yeah.
But it just goes on forever.
But, uh, things
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
are changing on the horizon.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I think that, uh, you know, I, I will
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
say that Nevada, my time working
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
with the Nevada b l m in whatever
capacity, whether it's aviation or
cruise or engines or whatever it's been.
Interesting to see the evolution of that.
Because I wanna say, and I hate
using this word progressive, because
a lot of people have like the red
versus blue in their own connotation
of that word, that own definition.
Definition of that word.
But as far as like in its truest sense,
I wanna say that the Nevada b l m
has been pretty eye-opening as far as
like pushing the boundaries of what
we could do to take care of our folks.
So definitely appreciate
that about my time.
I don't know what you guys
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
thoughts on that.
I think
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
Nevada is like, I mean, I've really worked
in six states and Nevada definitely has a
culture that's different with, Hey, I got
an idea and all right, let's assess it.
Let's check it out, let's truth with it.
You know?
And nothing is off the table
until, you know, absolutely no way.
I mean, I've only heard no one time.
Mm-hmm.
And that was just
tinning the windows in my
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
coverage.
And that's,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
I mean, we would all agree
that's, you know, Paul Peterson's
been our F M O for a long time.
Mm-hmm.
And those, I mean, he's
been a, a big leader.
And like Jeremy says, when any of us go
to him with an idea, we rarely get no.
It's like, yeah.
He's like, let's do it.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
You know?
It, it seems like Nevada b l m is
more of a beg for forgiveness than
ask for permission kind of state.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack: I
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
don't think anybody wants to say
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
that, but
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I'll say the quiet part out
loud, which can be a good thing.
Uh, it, it is a good thing in
our case because we're doing it
for, you know, just purposes and
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
good.
And
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
I think that that's a good point though.
I mean, there, Paul, Paul knows,
Brock knows Karen before Brock.
Mm-hmm.
And Dennis range like.
There's good leadership here.
And so they're not going out on
a limb to like hanging it out for
something that's absolutely crazy.
You know, they're gonna ask you
the right questions if you're the
subject matter expert, and you're
gonna have to convince them.
And so that you are progressive and
you are kind of asking for forgiveness
in some ways, but it's really not
like you're going, you know, to do
something destructive or irresponsible.
It's just for the firefighter
out there in the field.
Yeah.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I think what's, uh, different or lucky
for us in Nevada is you have a lot of
people that are from Nevada and that
have grown up through the program.
And if you look in the, just this meeting,
it's all people that we've worked with
for almost our entire career mm-hmm.
Across the state.
And then as people get hired and moved up,
you know, it's the leadership, like you
said, the leadership that's in the state,
that the, everyone trusts each other
and that they're, that they trust the
hires that people make for the most part.
And so whether it's not like, like you
said, it's not really forgiveness or
per permission, it's like they respect
what we do as an organization, right?
So whether it's a heli tech crew in
El or Vegas or the hotshot crews or
anybody else, it's like, well, if
he's making this decision it's because
it, there's a reason behind it.
So we'll support it.
And that we know, I knew that
I didn't have to call for
everything that I wanted to do.
I had the latitude to be able
to make decisions for myself.
Right.
Yes.
Some operational independence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, never felt like I
was under anybody's thumb.
And that was, uh, I mean that was huge.
That's what, that's what keeps people
around You pass that down through.
I've, I've never been micromanaged here.
And that was, that's
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
ideal.
It seems like there's a good level
of trust as well between all of the
different districts and all of the
leadership and the boot and even your
like subordinates, if you will, or your
boots on the ground, your peers, whatever,
coworkers, whatever you wanna call 'em.
But there's not like a culture
of, uh, buddy fucking, that's
what I've kind of noticed.
There's not a lot
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
of them out there.
Yeah.
So I mean, even when you make a
mistake, because we all do it.
Like I've made, I've, you know, I've
made mistakes for sure at work and like,
oh wait, our contract ended yesterday,
but I'm still flying the aircraft today
and there's some ramifications here.
It was like, I wasn't scared to
call Singh and tell him that.
Yeah.
It was like, you're like,
Hey man, it's a fucking team,
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
right?
Oops.
You're like, whoops.
Yeah, we're all on the same team.
And like, I think if somebody
does, you know, happen to go
Blue Falcon on him mm-hmm.
You call it out, right?
You're like, Hey dude, you just
screwed three of your buddies
by poaching that assignment.
You know, like, you
don't let anything slide.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
Holding people accountable and
calling 'em out when they need
to, it kind of reduces that buddy
fucking culture, I guess you can say.
So.
Or the Blue Falcon culture.
I
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
like that.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
But yeah, it's good, man.
It's a very productive and,
uh, very healthy environment
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
to work in.
And, uh, my over overall, my overall
experience of working with the Nevada b
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
LM has been pretty positive,
which leads me into my next topic.
Of hiring.
So as far as getting your foot
in the door for the program, like
what are you guys looking for?
I know aviation like hell attack,
you typically need some fire
experience and that's obviously
with, you need to experience.
You can't just hop in a plane
and be an air attack one season.
Yeah.
One season.
That's all you need.
Yeah.
So let's talk about hiring and how,
uh, what you guys are looking for, the
qualities of people that you're looking
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
for.
Um, just take it away.
So really for, uh, for, for me,
when I was doing hiring right?
Was just on, I wanted the,
the year of experience.
I mean, we, we have mechanisms to get
around that for the right candidate right.
And moved on it before.
Mm-hmm.
A couple years ago we had a,
like an army ranger guy who
came in like super good dude.
His references were impeccable
and so it was an easy call.
Like, yeah, we're gonna pick him up with
no fire because he's been climbing outta
the package Chinooks in Afghanistan
for the last five years, right?
Yeah.
So probably knows his
way around helicopter.
He knows his way around helicopter.
Right?
We'll teach him some fire,
but we don't need to teach him
how to work on a helicopter.
Plus his run times were phenomenal.
So it was like, Vegas is a running crew.
They're like, this dude is the
fittest dude I've ever met.
I'm like, I'm sold.
But yeah, that's, uh, you know,
it's just open communication.
You, we wanna find the
right people for the job.
Especially in, in Las Vegas or
really, I mean any heli tech crew.
Mm-hmm.
You're gonna be on the road a lot.
Oh yeah.
So that's like out, out of the gate
when people call and they have interest.
It's like, okay, here's
the expectation is.
You're gonna have time where if you,
if you want to go do something, we can
give you some time off in the summer
knowing that staffing the aircraft
comes first, because that's our job.
But what we have some flexibility,
we can do those things.
Yeah.
But also just expect that you're
gonna be on the road for a
hundred to 120 days this summer.
That's it.
I mean, it's, it's a lot.
I mean, that and, and it's just
the reality of how the crew works.
It's the reality of, you know, where
it's situated in the state and the
same, I mean, ELCA is the same.
Neely's the same.
They're all on the road
for significant periods.
And so, I mean, it's things that
you're just honest with upfront
so that no one's surprised.
That's the biggest thing with
hiring is, you know, reference
checks and all that stuff.
It are good.
And they help move through that
process and what your background is.
And uh, and, and like you said,
we talk about fitness a lot.
Mm-hmm.
Especially, you know, we're on the
side of the hill like everybody else.
Mm-hmm.
And you have to be fit.
There's no choice.
Yeah.
There's, there's no way around it.
Um, you're not like sitting there
doing cargo missions all day.
You're not, yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Just set the expectations
that like, this is what we do.
You're in their first week, your first
day we are going to go run 10 miles.
Yeah.
You're gonna get your ass kicked.
So you are warned now as an employee.
Right.
So tho those type of things, it's just
open communication so no one is surprised
because that is, that is a recipe
for disaster and a crew when you hire
somebody who wasn't expecting to do what
you do, and then it's just a problem.
Right.
Yeah.
Just that.
Upfront.
First thing, interviews
like, this is how this runs.
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
This is what your expectations
are as far as fitness goes.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I see that you've been on another crew.
Uh, this, this is different.
Or it might be the same.
Maybe we're on the road as much
as you were, but, or whatever.
But this is how this works.
Mm-hmm.
And you have to meld to the program.
Yeah.
Program's not gonna Mel to you, so.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Well, the BLM fitness challenge
is definitely a real thing.
That's statewide.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I got
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
plaque in my office.
It has all Nevada for 10 years, so Yeah.
Yeah.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
It's, it's less than a thing.
Mvp.
It's
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
less of a thing now.
Is it less than a thing now?
Is it?
Oh, we
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
have to do planks instead of sits.
Wait, what?
Yeah.
I changed last year.
You're not fucking with me, are you?
No.
You're like are fucking with me.
Sit-Ups are gone and now you do planks.
You.
It's a lot easier to max out
five minutes of planks than
it is to max out 130 setups.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I'm still trying to wrap
my head around this.
Are you
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
seriously fucking with me?
Yeah.
No, go look it up.
They changed it.
Oh my god.
Surveillance.
You still run though.
Okay.
And I have to do pull-ups and.
Push up pushups, right?
Yeah.
But planks really?
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I don't, I don't like planks.
So my Actually you a plank guy down?
No,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
they're sit-ups.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
But yeah.
No, I mean, and that's the thing,
you know, you'll hear, uh, I've
had people on the crew before that
were, they were like, this has no
representation for firefighting.
Right.
Like, what, what?
And it doesn't, but it
was, well, it's like the
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
pact test.
The pact test is, it's, in my opinion,
since I'm no longer answering to
Uncle Sam, I can say that the PAC
test is bullshit as far as like a
representation of what we need to do to be
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
physically fit.
Yeah.
So it's like, it, it's more
of a camaraderie thing, right.
The be on fire fit.
It's fun to submit part of the state.
Exactly.
Compete against other crews.
It's, uh, I mean, it's something
fun to do, but Yeah, it's
a, I mean, if you get that
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
coveted 400 score, then no one can take
that away from you until the next year.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Right.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I mean, it's
just different things.
So that, I mean, for hiring, for me,
that's, that's what it's about to, so
open and honest and set expectations
before they even set foot in the door.
Mm-hmm.
Now,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
what about the tanker
based side of things?
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Um,
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
for the tanker base, I try
to really focus locally.
Mm-hmm.
Just because we do have to
drive every day from elk O so
the majority of us live there.
Um, Yeah, it's a drive
every day, but we do it.
Um, it hasn't been too hard for me.
I do a lot of networking myself.
I'm gonna go out and try to find people
that have a good attitude, positive
are gonna work, they wanna work.
Um, you know, we don't do 120 days on the
road, but we're constantly on the road.
They wanna go out on assignments.
Um, I don't need somebody
with a bad attitude in there.
So that's a big thing for us.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, we all live together
practically all summer, so Yeah.
We need everybody.
It's very much a fire family.
Yeah.
On the same page.
Um, I like somebody that wants
to strive, obviously that's gonna
wanna be better, wants to learn.
If you wanna go on an assignment every
year, couple assignments, I don't care.
We're gonna make it work,
we'll make it, you know, make,
get a detailer into backfill.
Yeah, exactly.
Or we try to, you know,
bring in local people.
But ever, I would say in the last
four or five years, we have more
and more and more on our list.
I mean, at the tanker base, you don't
have to have fire line experience, so
you can have the six months general work
experience so we can get a bigger list.
Um, yeah, it's, it's working,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
but at some point to get
to Melissa's level, yes.
You gotta get 'em that 90 days.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Gotta get that fire line experience.
Yeah, and I'm sure, so we work
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
locally and get 'em on an engine or
whatever they can do to get to help,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
so.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
And now as far as the outside detailers
on the, uh, I guess the, uh, air attack
kind of sa kind of thing, or like people
that are outside applicants looking to
get into the Nevada aviation program for
air attack or that other aviation side
of things, what are we looking for there?
Uh,
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
I mean, I think just the complexity.
Um, we hired Justin Cutler as
the stead air attack behind
Scott Moore when he retired.
And, you know, just looking at
all those positions, salt Lake
air attacks, dead Elko, um, you
have some pretty complex airspace.
And then the dynamics of how much
we're willing to commit to an
incident is also a lot for some folks.
And so when you're working through those
processes, it's just, you know, looking
for the folks that wanna improve all
the time, have a path, have a positive
attitude, you know, and understand
that the complexity's there, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, this isn't gonna be a cake walk and,
you know, have a good attitude with it.
So I think those are
like just the easy ones.
Um, you're really training up
the next generation, right?
Yeah.
So that's the leaders you're looking for.
That's why Lucas has a job.
Justin, I think
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
that's every firefighter's job is to,
you know, build upon the foundation
that was laid before you by the,
by your predecessor, and give that
to the, your predecessors, right?
Kind of build them up.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
And, but aviation
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
had a lot of campers, you know, 10
years ago these just never moved.
Like tanker based managers.
Mm-hmm.
Not talking about you kid.
Well, they were there forever and just
like, there was nothing and it just,
you know, kind of log, jammed it.
Yeah.
And so you just find folks that have some
energy and, and, uh, are looking, there's
so much training with the Air Techs,
the natas, the na, all three napas, you
know, you're training up new air techs.
There's a lot of commitment to that.
And I don't want somebody that doesn't
want to do that, help with that workload.
Cause then it all falls to like
the same three dudes, you know?
And so looking for those opportunities,
I think we Nevada's found that balance
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
fast,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
aggressive initial attack.
That's what we do.
Like the hell.
Tech crews, no.
Like if it's busy in Nevada, we
need 'em, they're staying here.
Or bread and butter.
Same with their attacks.
Like we're not sending you to go to a
team fire like we need you here for ia.
Mm-hmm.
We order, you know,
order early, order often.
Like that motto and people that,
like, that's the same with Melissa.
Like she knows, like they're, you know,
all of our base snow, we're trying to
get seats out the door and trying to get
heavies out the door and support Lucas
who's supporting the people on the ground.
So like, and that's bl m's model.
Right.
Initial, initial attack.
And I think we do really
well with that in Nevada.
And um, our folks know if it's slow,
then yeah, we'll go help people out.
But man, if Nevada's busy
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
buckle up.
Yeah.
You
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
know how it is.
Yes.
And from 10 years of, uh, hell
attack around the state, I would
much rather be busy Nevada fighting
fire than out somewhere else on
a, uh, on a hell base assignment.
So that's what
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
you look for.
You want, you want that character type
that isn't looking at the overtime
necessarily as the primary functions?
No.
Like no me, any means necessary
to get to this number.
Mm-hmm.
It's like I just want to go
fight fire, initial attack.
Change things all constantly.
You look for that, you're gonna get
some, some folks that have some, uh,
really strong character for Nevada.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Nice.
Yeah.
Okay.
And now last question I have for
you guys is the topic that everybody
in aviation either loves or hates.
There's really no in between, but let's
talk about u a s for a quick minute.
I know you guys gotta go here.
All right.
I'm out here.
But see, there we go.
Done.
See ya.
That's a cut.
So uas, I know there's a big push,
uh, government wide, it doesn't
matter if you're team green or
team yellow or whatever flavor of
department you belong to, right?
So u a s is one of those hot button
ticket or hot button items, right?
Let's talk about u a s
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I think it's like anything
else, like there's right
time to use that tool mm-hmm.
Or whatever you want.
And the, the progress that
that program's making is big.
Right.
But, uh, yeah, I think just, just picking
and choosing what, what it makes the
most sense for when these things happen.
The, the training that goes into it.
Integrating into, I mean, because
our manned aircraft, right?
Our pilots, the fly helicopters, seats,
tankers, they're very interested in how
the program's going and how it integrates
with what they do because it's ever, it's
everyone flying at the same level, right?
Yeah.
And so they wanna make sure that
the training is being, being done.
They're getting the same
information that the tanker pilots
are getting, that everyone's
operating on the same wavelength.
Yes.
Yeah.
And so I think that from my 2 cents,
um, u a s wise is like just as long as
we're not rushing integration right.
And making sure that everyone's
comfortable in playing together
nicely in our, in our sandbox
and, uh, yeah, absolutely.
There's application.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
I think the, the big question for u a
s and I just learned this last year,
I think when Matt Dug got the national
u a s is like, what's our mission?
Right?
And so we really look in Nevada,
cuz that's, that was the focus here.
What's the mission initial attack, like
trying to get any kind of u a s systems in
place in 48 hours for his initial attack.
It's pretty rare.
And so, you know, a couple years ago we
brought a type one in and put it like on a
a, a GAC prepo order and then just started
moving it around to the, to the incidents.
But Nevada just doesn't have
any, it doesn't do aerial
ignition like the other states.
And so, yeah,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
it's not like we're doing
a, a bunch of broadcast
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
burning.
So, I mean, right.
There's, there's like resource stuff
with, you know, less complex airspace
that I could see it integrating,
but right now it's just, Nevada's
kind of actually been the one thing
that I've seen where they were like,
oh, let's pump the brakes on this.
When I came in was u a s, so mm-hmm.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
Ton of.
Not a ton, but there's non-fire missions
and we have some of that in Nevada.
And I can see the future going forward
that, you know, we got some, some
missions for the abandoned mines, you
know, we gotta go inventory of those.
It's awesome tool for that.
Um, we got some projects
and easy that they wanna do.
Um, so yeah, I think definitely in
Nevada we have some non-fire stuff
that we will utilize u a s four
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
going forward for
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
sure.
And you look at like the other
programs, the air attacks,
hell attack, you know, seats.
Cause we used to do all these
collateral duties, right?
Like 20 years ago Heli attack Foreman
we're probably doing something
else and they started doing this.
And so now the, the programs
are legitimate, right?
They have professionals that
have worked their way up.
U a s is no different, like
trying to carry that as a uam when
it's changing every day, it's,
you have zero passion for it.
Yeah.
You know, like mm-hmm.
It's kind of an unrealistic expectation.
So we need to build the program with
positions so that those folks can own that
and build that to whatever the need is.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
I could definitely see the utility
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
in some uas, uh, tools.
Like, especially with
like IR flights, right?
I know there was, uh, it was on a fire
in outside of Fallon one, one year
and uh, the drone crew showed up and
they're doing IR and Overwatch with.
Essentially a gigantic,
like decommissioned, uh,
one of those, those things
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
Al.
Cause that was the one that
came off the fire in Elko and
then went to the one by Fon.
Oh, okay.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
So it was on one of those fire,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
that fire actually.
And uh, they were getting some pretty
cool missions out of it, but also
I know it's kind of cumbersome.
It hasn't been really figured out yet.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Well,
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
and you're in, you're
in that airspace too.
You're in Fall's airspace.
Yeah.
And like there's all these things and so
there's a time and a place for everything.
And then there's the management of it.
I mean, I have to do team stuff
occasionally and like getting
the s people in line with the
ops people and timing everything
perfectly to getting it pulled off.
Mm-hmm.
There's, there's a lot
of coordination in that.
And so initial attack is just so dynamic.
And when your fires are,
four days is a long fire,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
especially out here.
Yeah.
Slips and quilts, right?
Yeah.
It,
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
it just, we just haven't found the
one and we're like, oh, that's,
that's what we need right there.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
We were on that, we were
on that fire in Fallon.
Yeah.
That you're talking about.
Yeah.
He was up, uh, I think
the drone was up flying.
Our pilot, uh, had gone up to do some
bucket work and so he called going, you
know, coming off the deck, going into
the airspace and the, the drone operator.
Drone operator.
Not to be confused with, not to
be confused with the pilot, the
drone operator gave him at an
altimeter setting in our pilot.
When he came back and landed, he was
like, it took everything I had not to go.
Got it nerd.
I was like, Cody, thank you for not doing.
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Just double click them.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, like, just like
you said, I think, and really
it sort of runs into B wide.
I think there's a, a lot of application
in the resource side, but I mean,
if you just chase the numbers and
you see where these drones are being
successful, it's on large scale.
Yeah.
The mosquito fire, for example, last year
we had drones flying on that every day.
Mm-hmm.
I was over there hillco, and
every day they were flying
and they're doing good work.
They were doing great
information to the team.
The team was happy, everything was good.
Right.
But that's, uh, I mean, you're
talking about a fire that I
was on for like 18 days, right?
Yeah.
Hadn't been going before I got there.
Yeah.
Right.
So that's a great application when
the BBL m wide, when our mission is
primarily initial attack, I don't,
you know, there's also no budget
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
increase for like, so the aviation
budget's been flat for 10 years.
Mm-hmm.
And so nothing has gotten cheaper in
the last 10 years, especially aircraft.
Oh yeah.
And then we're gonna add a whole
nother program to it of unmanned
aircraft that are actually
quadrupling in price currently.
You know, they're not
even figured out yet.
So like, there's a lot of r and d and it's
like, man, I think the best investment, at
least in Nevada, you know, is let's focus
on our man stuff and get that house right.
And then when that corner turns for
uas and there is a budget increase,
or there's a legitimate in influx
of something, if that's really our
focus, then we'll, we'll, we'll,
you know, consider it then, but.
It's just hard when you're trying
to take positions cuz there's
only so much money out there.
Right?
Yeah.
So you take this one from here to
fill this one over here, you know, and
it's, it's something that is giving
somebody some time off, like our air
attacks that are just burned out.
It's a hard, it's a hard sale.
You know,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I don't think you're ever
gonna take the human element
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
out of firefighting, even with like
the implementation and I guess rapid
adaptation of drone technologies, right?
Cause we got a a, we got
drones for everything.
We got drone dozers, drone.
Oh yeah.
Frigging reaper drones that have been
decommissioned and they're flying like
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Overwatch.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
I can see 'em drop in retardant
all night long, right?
Like they throw up an Overwatch
and then they're flying unmanned in
like summer, uh, urban interface.
You know, like where there's hands off
and nobody's worried about hitting a wire.
Yeah.
Like totally takes a risk.
The
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
human risk out of it,
the loss of life things,
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
but integrating it with man
aircraft, it's just gonna take a
lot of trust that we don't have yet.
I don't know.
Oh my
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
God.
For anybody who has a drone, like
a recreational drone out there
for the love of fuck, do not fly
anywhere near the T F ffr please.
I don't know how many times I've had to
call off ships and call out drones and
say, Hey, see salt at your operations.
Cuz that's what happens.
It shuts down the entire air operations.
So everything love a fuck.
Do not fly a drone, any public
listening to this or you happen to
be a firefighter and flying a drone.
Don't do this.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Uh,
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
yeah.
Or if your uncle Rick's a general
aviation guy and places 1 72, let's
go check out that smoke on mean.
We just as many.
That's right.
And CNOs
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Jesus man looks, except they, they come
by to look at it and f eighteens, right?
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
There's that too.
This is also fun.
But yeah, I, I don't know.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
I think right tool for the right job.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
I think that what you guys are saying
there, it's just not like there yet.
As far as widespread adaptation
or adaptation adoption.
Jesus, I can't talk.
Um, it's getting there though, and I
can totally understand, understand the
utility for like unmanned, uh, aerial
drops or unmanned overwatch or like
not committing people to that steep,
shitty canyon and being able to fly a
relatively well, very affordable P s D
mission to that place and burning it out,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
right?
So, yeah, absolutely.
Like, you know, the, the, I don't
know a ton about the drone program,
but what, what I do know and the,
this, um, they don't drones anymore.
The unmanned aircraft?
Is that it?
It's
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
a remote piloted
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Remote systems.
Remote systems.
We'll just call 'em remote systems.
Systems all R prs.
So, alright.
The, the remote.
The remote, the remote systems.
I, you know, the, the information they
share, the, the technologies it's there.
Like with the, those piece, the
PSC machines, like the Yeah,
that's, that's pretty wild.
Like the night burning, the
ig, the I cameras like that.
Yeah, that, but you look at some
cool stuff the way the budgets come
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
out, right?
Like, so your budget has
come down to your state.
To stop your positions to
fight fire in your state.
If you don't have that model,
then why would you have a
remote aerial ignition program?
Because all they're gonna do is spend
all their time up in region six.
Mm-hmm.
Dropping in forest and so like
really assessing your program first
and then whatever your need is.
Yeah.
Then you start to build the
proper solutions to that need.
Yeah.
Not
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
really applicable for Yeah.
Our fuel type and topography.
Yeah.
And especially with the amount of
initial attack that we actually do.
I mean,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
yeah.
When is the, when's the last campaign
fire that we've been on here in Nevada?
Like legitimate camp or campaign fire?
Mm-hmm.
What was the one?
Ta Tamarac.
HoCo.
Okay.
Tamarac.
Yeah.
I guess, yeah.
Mean?
Yeah, just a little bit of it.
Yeah.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
No, I was thinking like 18.
What was the river up
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
on?
Wahi.
South Sugarloaf.
Oh yeah.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
South Sugarloaf.
We had the million acre
fire out in the Wahi Desert.
But even that,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
that was Yeah, yeah.
Three days.
Yeah.
Rips and quits, right?
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
I was on a boat for like four days and
I came back, there was nothing going on.
Came back to self serviceness.
It was like the biggest
fire in Nevada history.
Yeah.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
It, it's done.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Okay, got it.
Well, cool guys.
I know you guys gotta get
outta here pretty soon.
So, um, I guess you guys are going
to project discovery or No, you guys
aren't going to project Discovery.
Everybody else went there and they're
gonna go do the Donner Party thing.
So we have M three
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
aviation, uh, training for managers.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
I am a desert rat now.
And the Project Discovery's article
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A sea tree in your book
is a extra large juniper.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
That's right.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
It's a palm tree.
A palm tree.
Well, cool guys, I wanna thank
everybody for being on the show
and kind of giving the insights
to the Nevada Aviation Program.
Um, if you guys have anything else
to add before we, uh, cut here.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
No, thanks for having us, man.
Appreciate you
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
coming down.
This is awesome.
Yeah, this is awesome, man.
Thank you.
This is pretty cool to get the ins and
outs and see the, the big picture, the
30,000 view of the aviation program.
But before we, uh, take off here, let's
do a real little round robin, because at
the end of the show, I always give the
opportunity for you guys to give out a
shout out to some homies, heroes, mentors.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Who do you got for us?
Well, I'd
Jeremy Seng - National Flight Operations Program Manager:
be remiss if I didn't bring up Tyler
Doggett right now, so that's a homie.
Yeah.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yeah.
Melissa Fry - Wells, NV, SEAT Base Manager:
Um, just my employees, Katie,
Katie Keys and Kaylee Jackson.
Like, I can't do it.
And Kristen Pilcher, I can't
do it if they're not there.
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
Yeah.
For me, I think, uh, I mean there's too
many, too many people really to mention
that have helped me to get where I, where
I got to at, at this point in my career.
But yeah, the second one, uh, would sings
had, cuz DGA was a part of that for sure.
Getting, getting up to
where I am, so, yeah.
Yeah.
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
Uh, you know, shout out to Paul.
He's retiring end of this week.
Um, so great leader for us.
And then, yeah, Tyler Doggett, uh, you
know, passed away last week, April 10th.
Um, a longtime b lmr.
And, um, air attack in Elko since 2015.
So, um, here's to you
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
brother, all on,
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
did you guys, uh, wanna talk
about the service or anything like
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
that?
So
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
yeah, there is a celebration on life.
Um, for Tyler.
It will be
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
at, um,
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
bakers Barn, bakers Barn,
Alec Goicoechea - Nevada State Aviation Manager:
and there is an address on there.
Um, of course I don't have it
in front of me, but it'll be May
fir May 13th, um, six o'clock.
All the homies out there know, um, you
know, reach out to myself, Jeremy, um, a
lot of people knew him and we're spreading
it far and wide on email, social media,
so, um, you should be able to find it.
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
Yep.
Well, thanks guys.
And uh, yeah, we'll see you around.
Thank you for being on the show.
Appreciate it.
And.
Cheer cheer.
Cheers the dog
Lucas Rhea - NV State Office Air Attack:
it.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Cheer
Anchor Point Podcast Host - Brandon Dunham:
better guys.
And boom, there we go.
Ladies and gentlemen.
Another episode of the Anchor Point
podcast is in the books with my
good friends Jeremy Sang, Lucas
Ray, Alec Gia, and Melissa Fry.
Thank you guys so much for being
on the show and giving us a deep
dive into the aviation program and
the, uh, also the hidden behind the
scenes stuff that we're pretty much
not aware of as boots on the ground.
It's, uh, pretty awesome.
And, uh, yeah, if you have any,
uh, interest in becoming a wild end
firefighter, specifically doing aviation
stuff, while these are the folks that you
want to hit up and I'll definitely put
their, uh, contact information in the show
notes, that way you can get ahold of them.
And also if you want to get ahold of
other people and just check out the
program in Nevada, well, you can go over
to Nevada fire info.org and there you can
find pretty much a rundown of everything
we've been talking about over the last
three episodes, whether that's cruise
aviation dispatch, pretty much everything.
It's all right there in
one convenient location.
So once again, that is
Nevada Fire info.org.
Joe, go check it out, especially if
you're interested in a career or you
wanna learn more about the program.
You even got some pretty good
educational stuff on there, so people
are doing dumb stuff in the woods.
Well point 'em in that direction
and tell 'em not to be dumb.
Anyways, Jeremy, Luke.
Alec Melissa, thank you so much for being
on the show and sharing your expertise
and knowledge and uh, yeah, I hope that
uh, there's some tasty little nuggets
for the folks out there listening to this
and they, uh, can use that to further
their career or maybe pursue a new path.
So once again, thank you so much.
I appreciate you guys.
As for the rest of you, I hope everybody
is doing well and uh, yeah, it seems like,
uh, Canada's not gonna be getting a break.
It's uh, yeah, rough deal, raw
deal over there, but I know there's
some, uh, crews heading up there.
So be safe.
Keep your heads on a swivel and that stuff
is only going to progress its way south.
So buckle up.
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got the Smokey Generation aka,
the American Wildfire experience.
And if you want to, uh, check out
the Smokey Generation grants, go over
to www.wildfireexperience.org and
check it out because you can also
win one of these storytelling grants.
It's 500 bucks up the line
just for telling your story.
It's pretty awesome, Bethany.
You have a kick ass
organization over there.
Keep it up.
And for the rest of you,
y'all know the drill.
Stay safe, stay savage.
Peace.