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From LeverNews.com — Lever Time is the flagship podcast from the investigative news outlet The Lever. Hosted by award-winning journalist, Oscar-nominated writer, and Bernie Sanders' 2020 speechwriter David Sirota, Lever Time features exclusive reporting from The Lever’s newsroom, high-profile guest interviews, and expert analysis from the sharpest minds in media and politics.
Arjun Singh 0:00
Hey everybody, today I'm excited to present the second part of a two part series that we've been working on here at the lever about Kamala Harris's record and history. This is the second part, but if you haven't heard the first part, you can go and find that in our feed right now, but you can also listen to this as a standalone episode. With that being said, we're gonna pick up the narrative where we last left off in our previous episode, we ended with Kamala Harris's time as Attorney General. In this episode, we'll pick up with her as a senator and in her first presidential campaign back in 2019 Alright, let's get into the story. There's this really interesting moment in Kamala Harris's career, and it happened one night when she was on the presidential debate stage. Talk
Kamala Harris 0:44
about extreme. You know, this is, I think, one of the reasons why in this election, I actually have the endorsement of 200 Republicans who have formally worked with President Bush Mitt Romney and John McCain, including the endorsement of former Vice President Dick Cheney and Congress member Liz Cheney.
Arjun Singh 1:09
No, no, no, no, no, not that debate. I'm talking about five years ago, June 27 2019
Lester Holt 1:18
Good evening. I'm Lester Holt and welcome to night two of the first democratic debate in the 2020, race for president.
Arjun Singh 1:24
Yeah, that's more likely on that day, Kamala Harris was then a senator representing California, and she was running for president. That was that crazy Democratic primary, the one that had almost 30 people vying for the nomination, and it led to some pretty crowded debate stages tonight
Speaker 1 1:42
round two, Colorado Senator Michael Bennet, former Vice President Joe Biden, South Bend, Indiana Mayor Pete Buttigieg, New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, California, Senator Kamala Harris. And
Arjun Singh 1:57
eventually, the conversation turns to Medicare for all
Speaker 1 2:01
health care, and this is going to be a show of hands question. We asked a question about health care last night that spurred a lot of discussion. As you know, we're going to do it again now, many people watching at home have health insurance of their employer Who here would abolish their private health insurance in favor of a government run plan? Of
Arjun Singh 2:19
course, Bernie raises his hand. Joe Biden doesn't but then so is Kamala Harris. Wait a minute, does that mean Kamala Harris is in favor of Medicare for all the same bill that would outlaw private health insurance and create a national system?
Amos Barshad 2:36
Yes, it looked like at that time, that she was basically syncing up with Bernie, which seemed like she was just very, very dramatically saying, you know, this is what I believe, Medicare for all, universal health care. You know, single payer, no mitigating circumstances, no no compromises, is what I believe. You know, let's go.
Arjun Singh 2:53
This is a most bar shot a senior enterprise reporter here at the lever. A little while ago, Amos wrote a story looking at Harris's relationship with the concept of Medicare for all, and he told me that Harris's support for Medicare for All was apparent months before that debate, going back to January 2019
Speaker 2 3:11
Harris stated very emphatically that she supported Medicare for all. I was during a town hall debate, a CNN televised town hall. Jake Tapper was the moderator, and they just took questions from the audience, very standard political thing. What is your
Questioner 3:29
solution to ensure that people have access to quality health care at an affordable price? And does that solution involve cutting insurance companies, as we know them, out of the equation?
Kamala Harris 3:40
I believe the solution, and I'm and I'm actually feel very strongly about this, is that we need to have Medicare for All Bernie.
Kamala Harris 3:56
And I'll say this, and this is, I think, why you're also asking this question. What we know is that to live in a civil society, to be true to the ideals in the spirit of who we say we are as a country, we have to appreciate and understand that access to health care is a it should not be thought of as a privilege. It should be understood to be a right.
Arjun Singh 4:17
But as time went on, it didn't take long for her to seemingly regret that decision. Not long after Harris raised her hand in the June debate, her campaign scrambled to correct the narrative that she was only in favor of Medicare for All within
Speaker 2 4:30
days, there's campaign reps reaching out to national media outlets and saying things like, Harris believes in multiple paths to universal coverage. You know, she did sponsor the Medicare for All bill, but she also sponsored other health care bills. She sees multiple paths towards this goal.
Arjun Singh 4:51
The thing that seemed to be tripping Harris up was the key provision in Bernie Sanders's Medicare for All bill, the one that she co sponsored, and it calls for the eventual. Elimination of most private health insurance in favor of a transition to a government funded plan. And remember, that was also the question the debate moderator had asked, Would you be in favor of abolishing private health insurance later on, though, Harris says she misheard the question. Here she is a few days after the debate, explaining why she raised her hand.
Kamala Harris 5:20
So the question was, would you be willing to give up your private insurance? That's not how it was such a plan, and that's what you heard, right? That's certainly what I heard. And in terms of the items, it's supportive of Medicare for all, and under Medicare for all, policy private insurance would certainly exist and for supplemental coverage, but under Medicare for all, and my vision of it, we would actually extend benefits. So for example, vision care, dental care, hearing aids, which currently are not covered. And anyone you know who's a senior can tell you they're extremely expensive, and people have to come out of pocket to pay for them, included maybe
Arjun Singh 5:58
to get a sense of what's going on. It's helpful to look at this from the brass tacks of running a political campaign in this gargantuan field of candidates, it was pretty difficult to distinguish yourself if your last name was in Biden Sanders or Warren Joe Biden had emerged as somewhat of the frontrunner, mainly by positioning himself as the moderate establishment pick, essentially a return to normalcy. Meanwhile, Bernie Sanders continued to run on the themes of his 2016 campaign, Medicare for all, taxing the wealthy and an unapologetically left wing platform. Now seeing the popularity of Sanders 2016 run, and especially Medicare for all, some of the other candidates wholeheartedly endorsed it, even going so far as to co sponsor Sanders is Bill like Harris did. Here's Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, for example, during her presidential campaign in 2019 I've
Sen. Gillibrand 6:47
been talking about it since 2005 I don't know when Senator Sanders started talking about it, but I got to help, right? But when
Arjun Singh 6:53
the going got tough and it became apparent, the real contest for the progressive vote was going to be between Sanders and Warren, some candidates did what's called a campaign reset, and basically started moderating their positions. Soon, candidates who had once appeared to support Medicare for all started introducing their own plans. Our
Beto O'Rourke 7:10
proposal is Medicare for America. It says that if you're uninsured, we enroll you in Medicare today if you're underinsured, meaning that you are unable to afford your co pay or your premium, will enroll you in Medicare if that is your choice. But if you have a health care plan that you like, that works for you and for your family, you're able to
Pete Buttigieg 7:30
keep it Medicare for all who want. It means we take a version of Medicare and we make it available for every American. I believe that this will be a better option than any of the private plans out there. I also believe Americans ought to be able to decide for themselves, and eventually
Arjun Singh 7:45
so did Kamala Harris, and
Kamala Harris 7:47
so I came up with my own Medicare for All plan, and basically it brings down costs. Everyone will be covered, including those with preexisting conditions. But I'm also giving people choice, because a lot of the feedback I got is people want choice. They want the option of a public Medicare plan, but they also want the option of a private Medicare plan, such as what is existing now in the Medicare system, and I wanted to give them that people don't want the things that they have now to be taken away by their government. And I appreciate that, and I respect that. Naturally,
Arjun Singh 8:22
Harris's decision to refer to her own plan as just Medicare for All not only created some confusion, it actually upset a lot of people. He's
Amos Barshad 8:32
calling it Medicare for all, but people are not seeing it as Medicare for All for a variety of reasons. And yeah, it was just seen as you know, that she had abandoned it, that she had given up on what she had previously stated she believed in, and she was presenting this public, private combination plan that was not single payer. It just wasn't Medicare for all, despite the fact that she wasn't saying, Oh, I no longer support Medicare for all. That's effectively how it was received. That's what people understood her to be saying. At
Arjun Singh 8:59
the heart of this tension is a philosophical debate about what it means to be a supporter of the concept of Medicare for all. The phrase Medicare for All has actually been around for a long time. The New York Times is documented, for example, as using it as far back as 1970 and much of this is related to the long history of Democrats trying to ensure access for all citizens to primary health care, and usually via government supported system in 2003 for example, a Michigan Congressman named John Conyers Junior introduced a bill called the expanded and improved Medicare for All Act, and that would create a single payer, government sponsored health insurance system. It notably also banned private insurers from offering insurance that would duplicate coverage provided by the government. More than a decade later, the term would come back into popular usage because of Bernie Sanders, and a lot of people still associate Medicare for all, the slogan with Sanders actual plan that was a really long winded way of. Saying I myself have been confused about the exact definition of what Medicare for All is. So I turn to someone who knows my
Alex Lawson 10:06
name is Alex Lawson. I'm the Executive Director of Social Security works, and we fight to protect and expand Social Security, Medicare Medicaid to lower prescription drug prices. That includes expanding Medicare to everybody. First, we improve it, we add vision, hearing, dental, long term care, and then we expand it to everybody. Lawson
Arjun Singh 10:30
has been working on this issue for a long time, and he's had a front row seat to the long fight for universal health coverage in the US as such. I figured he was the person asks, What does Medicare for All actually mean? To
Alex Lawson 10:43
be honest? Unfortunately, it does depend on context there of what you're talking about. The vision of what we're fighting for, what the Movement for Medicare for All fights for, is really simple and clear, everybody and nobody out. What that means is that every single person in this country is covered from the time that they are born until the time that they die. If they get sick, they get the care that they need. And this is not a difficult concept, because you can literally look at any other advanced economy, all of our peer nations around the world provide health care as a right to the people in their countries. That's what we're fighting for.
Arjun Singh 11:31
Harris received a lot of heat, including from health care advocates, for what was seen as basically a cynical political move. Her critics contended that it was a ploy to try and win over progressive votes without actually having to commit to a progressive policy.
Alex Lawson 11:46
She wanted to have her own policy right and differentiate herself from someone she was running against at the time in Bernie Sanders. And so her policy, and this is where you get into the idea of like, what is Medicare for all? Her policy is guaranteed health care for everyone in this country, right? So the goal is guaranteed health care, but it also had a 10 year implementation phase, which is longer than Bernie Sanders Medicare for all, you know, I think that you can go faster. I think that there are drawbacks to 10 years, the main one being that it can straddle in administration, right? But I think the thing that people really zero in on and try to say is like all negative is that her plan did allow the continuation of private insurers.
Arjun Singh 12:43
Again, we're back to this issue over private insurance, and it's something pretty important to understand in the Medicare for All Bill Written by Bernie Sanders and co sponsored by Kamala Harris, the one that was first introduced in 2017 language in that bill made it unlawful for a private insurer to sell an insurance policy that would cover something already covered by the public insurance system. The bill, however, did create a carve out for supplemental private insurance to be sold for things not covered, one example being cosmetic surgery. So if Medicare, say, provided coverage for something like a heart transplant, a private insurance company wouldn't be allowed to provide coverage for a heart transplant, but if Medicare did not include something like needing to get plastic surgery, the bill would have allowed a private insurer to offer some form of insurance to cover the cost of cosmetic surgery.
Alex Lawson 13:37
But if some people chose to remain in a private insurer for some reason they would be allowed to, and, you know, that's a policy choice. So I think the idea was that this, what they would call, at the time, private option, would just wither on the vine. And, you know, maybe there'd be like seven weirdos who are like, No, I definitely want to pay money to a corporation. But again, the entire system would be changed under that policy. And then I will also say, you know, that's the policy. All policy is based on an understanding that, you know, the plans that candidates are putting forward, that's not actually what would become law. It's a vision, but you're still going to have to work with what is coming out of the House and the Senate. So looking at her policy, I think the important takeaway is the goal is super clear, guaranteed health care for everyone in this country as a right from birth to death, you get sick, you get the care that you need. And so when you look at it in that light, you know the key thing is, is the health care guaranteed? Is there anyone who says you can't get this health care? And. And you know, that's what I judge policies by.
Arjun Singh 15:03
The devil might be in the details, though, and bear with me. I'm about to get real wonky and in the weeds of healthcare policy, but it's important, so Let's cue the music and let me put on my best insurance broker hat. It is true that Kamala Harris's proposed Medicare for All plan would guarantee access to Medicare for everyone, but it also maintained, and to some critics, supported private insurance companies, in addition to allowing people to sign on to government offered Medicare, Harris's plan would also allow private insurers to offer something they called Medicare plans. But in reality, these private plans would likely resemble a type of healthcare option currently known as Medicare Advantage. These are private, commercial plans currently available to seniors that are subsidized by US taxpayers. They've been around since the late 90s. Now you might be asking, why would anyone pick a private plan over standard Medicare Well, in some cases, they cover things that a Medicare plan doesn't, but they're also more restrictive about what doctors and hospitals you can use. Additionally, they've been criticized for sketchy billing practices that run up costs and drive huge corporate profits. Profits largely drain from the pockets of the US government and taxpayers. In Harris's proposal, private companies could continue offering these types of Medicare Advantage plans only, and really confusingly, they'd also be branded as Medicare. Critics pointed out that this would likely lead to confusion between public and private Medicare plans, as well as the continued subsidizing of private insurers offering questionable care. More to the heart of the debate, however, is that Harris's plan saw a role for private insurers within the health care system, something many Medicare for All advocates, including Bernie Sanders, vehemently opposed.
Arjun Singh 16:58
Harris's presidential campaign would eventually lose steam by the end of 2019 and before the first primary even happened, she dropped out of the race and returned to being a full time US senator. But that was short lived, because soon Joe Biden announced that he was putting Harris on the Democratic ticket. She's
Joe Biden 17:15
a proven fighter for the backbone of this country, the middle class, for all those who are struggling to get into the middle class, Kamala knows how to govern. She knows how to make the hard calls. She's ready to do this job on day one, and we're both ready to get to work rebuilding this nation and building it better.
Arjun Singh 17:38
Vice President is kind of an odd role, and it's one that's usually defined by the person who inhabits the office.
Kamala Harris 17:44
We'll create millions of jobs and fight climate change through a clean energy revolution, bring back critical supply chains. So the future is made in America. Build on the Affordable Care Act, so everyone has the peace of mind that comes with health insurance, and finally, offer caregivers the dignity, the respect and the pay they deserve.
Arjun Singh 18:12
Some vice presidents, like Dan Quayle, if anybody remembers who that is, primarily operated as a spokesman for the administration. But then you've got others like Dick Cheney, a guy who convinced his president to give him an absurd amount of power, Barack Obama treated Joe Biden somewhat like an advisor, and their agreement was that Biden would be privy to all of Obama's major decisions, but that he would also ultimately support Obama's agenda. When Harris was selected, Biden reportedly offered her a similar arrangement, and in that role, Harris has been tasked with some important items, like overseeing the administration's push to expand voting, along with trying to determine the administration's response to a growing influx of migrants, particularly from central and southern America. A lot of Republicans have hammered Harris's role in the administration as being the quote, border czar, something that some media reports also dubbed Harrison, trying to describe her role, but the White House never gave her that role, nor have they said that she was uniquely tasked with addressing problems of security at the US border. Legally, the founding fathers didn't really outline the exact duties of the vice president. They do state the VP assumes the presidency if the President is incapacitated, the Vice President's also the President of the Senate, and can cast a tie breaking vote if the Senate is split. 5050, and that's exactly what happened to Democrats in 2021
News anchor 19:32
and both of those Senate seats are flipping, and it looked like a long shot for Democrats. They sat there at the end of election night two seats short, but they won both of them in the state of Georgia, and it will give Democrats control of the Senate as of January 20, when Biden and Harris are sworn in, Harris becomes the tie breaking vote, and there's
Arjun Singh 19:49
no Harris's role as a tiebreaker was immediately spotlighted because the administration was moving through multiple massive spending bills. One was a response to the covid 19 pandemic. But included in that relief Bill was also a law that would raise the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour, something that Biden Anne Harris campaigned on. There was naturally some political infighting, but Joe Biden said he was in favor of the raise, and the plan was for it to be included in this giant spending bill, that is, until a woman named Elizabeth McDonough stepped in. It
Bernie Sanders 20:20
is an absurd process that we allow an unelected staff, as somebody who works for the Senate, not elected by anybody, to make a decision as to whether 30 million Americans get a pay raise or not. I don't care how the parliamentarian rules. No parliamentarian should have that power.
Arjun Singh 20:41
McDonagh is the Senate parliamentarian, an institutional officer who advises whoever is presiding over the Senate about how to respond to various situations. Essentially, they're a guide to how the Senate functions, in case whoever's presiding might not know. Back in February of 2021 McDonough was the parliamentarian, and she held an important role in deciding whether or not a $15 minimum wage was able to be included in the covid 19 relief bill that would eventually be called the American rescue plan, because the Senate was pushing this through via an institutional process called budget reconciliation. McDonough was seen as the final call over whether or not the Senate's rules allow something like a minimum wage hike to be included in a budget and spending bill.
News Anchor 21:25
President Biden's bid to double the federal minimum wage apparently will not be part of his covid relief package. The house is due to vote today on the $1.9 trillion plan to address the economic impact of the pandemic, but the official in charge of Senate rules says that raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour should be removed from the bill.
Arjun Singh 21:47
There was one hope, though, as the head of the Senate, Vice President Harris could have overruled the parliamentarian and allowed the minimum wage increase to get into the bill, but she didn't do that. Once again, Harris bucked a position she had campaigned on and spoke passionately about. It is fair to say that as a representative of Joe Biden, perhaps she was just fulfilling his wishes, but the administration didn't even put up a fight. Even odder is that vice presidents before have overruled the parliamentarian, and the stakes were high. While it's unclear if every Democratic Senator would have voted for a minimum wage hike, throwing the full force of the executive branch behind it, would have sent a powerful message. You may be asking now, why am I bringing this up? And I want to be clear that it is ultimately up to the voters to determine how they interpret Harris's actions. But I find this parable important because once again, Harris is running on an agenda that will require some legislation to be passed, which is why it leaves me asking a critical question, how determined is Kamala Harris to pass the platform she's running on? That dilemma is already manifesting itself in questions over what Harris would do about Israel's invasion of Gaza. So after the break, we're going to look at how Harris has approached that situation so far. We'll be right back. You.
Prem Thakker 23:27
It has been several months since Joe Biden was eating an ice cream cone and was answering a question from a reporter about the ceasefire negotiations, in which he said that the ceasefire was right around the corner, hopefully by next week, and that has kind of been the sort of cadence and status quo of things since then, which is just that it always seems to be right around the corner and there never seems to be actual accountability to that pledge. Last week, the White House was asked, you know, what's the deal? How much further is there? What's your level of optimism with the status negotiations? And the White House spokesperson, John Kirby, kind of retorted at the reporter and the premise of the question, saying, Look, I'd rather be optimistic where we're almost there. Prem
Arjun Singh 24:14
Tucker is a reporter for zatello News who's been reporting on how the Biden administration has been approaching the invasion of Gaza and the status of negotiations between Israel the US and Hamas should Harris win in November, one of the most pressing issues she'll need to tackle is how to put an end to this conflict. Biden has for the most part, stood by Israel's government, and he's consistently provided aid and weapons to them. He's also faced a considerable amount of criticism, particularly from 1000s of Democratic voters, for what they believe has been a one sided approach to the conflict.
Prem Thakker 24:46
We have several Americans killed by zero forces just since October 7. We have aishin or AGI. We have Mohammed Kru Tawfik, Abdul Jabbar. We have Jacob Flickinger, the world central kitchen worker. Of course, this stuff. Back to our press colleague, Srinagar. We have, of course, Rachel Corey, 20 years ago, and that's just, you know, a sampling. None of those are even considered murders, even when they're Americans. And so this question of when will be enough for the United States with regards to death and destruction, we're already accustomed to the idea that regardless of their words in terms of policy, Palestinian lives do seem to matter less. We should operate from that premise, given what we can see with our own eyes. And then when you put in the fact that Israeli forces have also killed Americans, that still doesn't seem to be any sort of approaching of enough. I recall when Jacob Flickinger, the world central kitchen worker and the others were killed. There was this moment that it really felt that, oh, is this an inflection point, by virtue of them being part of a Western, a an organization connected to the DC chef Jose Andres, it felt that, oh, was this the thing that broke the camel's back and quickly, as we've seen over and over again, when we thought there might be an inflection point, it was not an inflection point. The weapons kept coming. The UN resolutions kept getting vetoed. The unconditional support remained largely unconditional. So that seems to indicate that there is no enough. You know, we were asking this question at a few 1000, 5000 10,000 20,000 this answer was always, was always the same, which is that no civilian life being killed is acceptable. And yet, 1000s more, 1000s more, 1000s more. Recently,
Arjun Singh 26:32
six hostages who were kidnapped by Hamas on October 7 were killed, three of whom were anticipated to be released as part of the first phase of a ceasefire agreement within Gaza, more than 40,000 civilians have been killed since October 7, and right now, it does not appear that a negotiation is anywhere within sight. Meanwhile, the violence has gotten more severe, and it appears to be spreading in the West Bank, the Israeli government acknowledged an American activist was unintentionally killed by Israeli soldiers, and the war has spread into other countries like Lebanon, which borders Israel. Fighting between the militant group Hezbollah and the Israeli military has seen rocket fire exchange between both countries, resulting in civilian deaths as well. New reporting is revealing the extent of the violence being waged, the
Prem Thakker 27:22
enormity of what the Israeli government has done to Palestinian people and aid workers and volunteers and journalists and doctors and human beings generally since October 7, is beyond the Scale of anything this administration is willing to admit, the sexual violence in the prison camps, the mass detention roundup of Palestinians that we've seen throughout this invasion on Gaza and even before I mean, you recall the pictures of stripped and naked Palestinian boys and men in The streets rounded up with blindfolds, their hands tied behind their backs. Now we understand where a lot of them may have ended up, and that has nothing to do with the mass bombardment, the the snipings. One thing that's really just been remiss over and over again from coverage is there were months ago that there was a church complex that was attacked where Israeli snipers had had targeted people seeking refuge in a church. And that was not an aberration. There's been reports of Israeli snipers sort of monitoring areas outside of hospitals, such that whenever there would be motion or activity, there would be sniped, such that you couldn't rescue someone if they were bleeding out on the street, you couldn't go to the other side of the street to get water. There's been doctors in Gaza, both Palestinian and and from the West, who have said the wounds they have seen are undeniably intentional. In terms of of the idea, there was one doctor that said, you don't snipe someone in the head twice. Some
Arjun Singh 28:59
had hoped that Harris would make a break with Biden and show a tougher line on Israel and more empathy towards Palestinian civilians, which they feel Biden has failed to do. One of them used to work for Kamala Harris. Her name is Lily Greenberg. Call
Lily Call 29:14
I went to work for her in 2019, most of my life. I was raised in a very pro Israel community, of every Jewish community, I went to Jewish Day School for most of my education. I i have always, like, really loved being Jewish, both, you know, a lot of the like, religious aspects and the cultural aspects and the history, and have felt like, very, very tied and rooted to that as as, really, the central part of my identity
Arjun Singh 29:41
call had worked at one time as an intern in Harris's Senate office, and then she moved to Iowa in 2019 to work on Harris's campaign. Like,
Lily Call 29:48
I think, being, you know, a black woman, and this vision that she had, you know, as part of her first campaign that, like, justice is on the ballot, those were really appealing to me. And. And the idea of, like, working for someone running for president who I had actually, you know, had a personal connection with, and had met and worked for, I didn't apply to a single job. When I graduated college in 2019 I said, I'm gonna go work for Kamala Harris or Elizabeth Warren if Kamala Harris doesn't have me. And my parents were like, can you just maybe one job? Like, make me send out one resume? And I was like, No,
Arjun Singh 30:23
I'll send it to them. She grew up in a conservative community in Southern California, and for most of her life, had always had a strong connection and a deep love of her Jewish heritage.
Lily Call 30:32
I grew up with a very sanitized version of Israeli history, and Israeli, you know, present and really like was not taught much, if anything, about Palestinians, about Palestinian identity, about Palestinian culture, about Palestinian reality, like about what Israel means for Palestinians and has meant for them since 48 and before. So you know, to me, Israel was this, like, in a lot of ways, really salvation for the Jewish people after the devastation of the Holocaust and a continued safe space. I was also like a big history nerd as a kid, but I was always very, very aware of like, Jewish history and our experiences with anti semitism as a people, both kind of like within my own family and then as part of the larger story of of the community. And so that's very much how I viewed Israel, like I, I was raised also as, like a democrat and a liberal in a lot of ways, and was, like, very conscious of what I what I saw at the time as Israel's flaws. And kind of was, was always called, like a peace snake or a lefty, like by some people in my community, because I was very oriented around, like, being pro Israel, but from, from what we would call now, like a liberal Zionist perspective, I think, and very like peace oriented,
Arjun Singh 31:50
when call went to work for Harris in 2019 she'd started to reevaluate how she thought about the Israeli government, and she was looking at it with a more critical lens. Eventually, she would join the Biden administration, working in the Interior Department. And while she was aware that Biden was staunchly supportive of Israel, she had heard murmurings that Harris and her staff didn't fully agree with how Biden was approaching the conflict.
Lily Call 32:11
There were these things I was hearing that like they were pushing Biden world, and they were, you know, that there was the lack of alignment. And then when, when, when Kamala spoke in Selma, that was a big deal. I remember, like, across, you know, people, kind of internally in the administration, we were like, oh, shoot, okay. It just signaled that she was approaching this differently.
Kamala Harris 32:35
Let's get a ceasefire. Let's reunite the hostages with their families, and let's provide immediate relief to the people of Gaza
Arjun Singh 32:46
in may call became the first Jewish staffer in the Biden administration to resign in protest over their handling of the war in Gaza. Part of why she resigned was because of what she saw as a refusal to even consider changing course. So I asked what she would like to see from Harris that could demonstrate an authentic shift in policy. I
Lily Call 33:04
don't think we will have, like, the overnight, you know, kind of shift that I would like and that a lot of people would like. I do think some of it also comes down to like, you know. I mean, right now, I think the thing that she needs to do is call for an arms embargo, and an arms embargo would ultimately just mean following our own laws, right like right now, the US is, is in violation of its own laws, not just international laws, but its own laws, in continuing to send Israel weapons because of what Israel has done with those weapons. And so, like from in sort of a practical manner, it's like, if we follow our own laws, that will essentially be an arms embargo. So let's do that. There's a lot of steps that we can take that are really, really easy and really nothing that feel like that is like, really, you know, radical or kind of a change in the status quo. Like, yes, it might be around Israel, but nothing that is like really a departure from again, following our own laws that are already like in existence, that we already have, that would limit Israel's ability to continue harming Palestinians.
Arjun Singh 34:13
A couple weeks ago, Harris sat down with CNN, and she was asked about whether she'd endorse an arms embargo. Here's what she had to say. I've
Kamala Harris 34:20
met with the families of the American hostages. Let's get the hostages out. Let's get the ceasefire done, but no change in policy in terms of arms and so forth. No, we have to get a deal done. Dana, we have to get a deal done. When you look at
Arjun Singh 34:36
over the past year, 1000s who have found themselves upset with the administration's handling of the war, band together to vote uncommitted in the Democratic primaries, to show their voting strength, and then an organization called the uncommitted National Movement formed to channel that frustration. Uncommitted co founder, I should say, isn't just a Democrat. He was a delegate to Chicago's convention, and they had one request, that is. Speaker be allowed to share the Palestinian perspective on stage at the DNC, the Party rejected that call. This
Prem Thakker 35:06
movement is incredibly accommodating to the Democratic Party, and so it is remarkable that the Democratic Party has not even thrown them a bone. Did not even allow a Palestinian speak on stage at the Democratic National Convention, while larger calls include an arms embargo to Israel, there are several other steps just with regards to Israel's war in Gaza, let alone the broader occupation of Palestine, that would be very amenable to not just the uncommon movement to but to 1000s of people across this country that feel sick to their stomach by the idea of contributing their vote to a campaign that so far seems to not want to dignify their human moral concerns. That could even involve Kamala Harris saying in a speech that she her administration will respect international law. Will respect bodies like the United Nations and the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court as every state the US believes should that, in itself, would indicate a departure from this administration, which so far has not done
Arjun Singh 36:15
that. On Tuesday during her debate with former President Trump, Harris, once again, spoke about the conflict in Gaza, Israel
Kamala Harris 36:21
has a right to defend itself. We would, and how it does so matters, because it is also true far too many innocent Palestinians have been killed, children, mothers. What we know is that this war must end. It must, when end immediately, and the way it will end is we need a ceasefire deal, and we need the hostages out, and so we will continue to work around the clock on that work around the clock, also understanding that we must chart a course for a two state solution, and in that solution there must be security for the Israeli people and Israel, and an equal measure for the Palestinians. But the one thing I will assure you always, I will always give Israel the ability to defend itself, in particular, as it relates to as it relates to Iran, and any threat that Iran and its proxies pose to Israel. But we must have a two state solution where we can rebuild Gaza, where the Palestinians have security, self determination and the dignity they so rightly deserve. Once
Arjun Singh 37:32
again, Kamala Harris appears to try and straddle a safe political line here, but inevitably, this is a situation that will require a firm choice, one that is sure to upset millions, regardless of how she handles it. Joe Biden firmly aligned himself with Israel's government, even in the wake of political pressure. But as we've seen throughout Harris's career, she often seems reluctant to plant a flag. The movement of Americans, particularly Democrats, who are deeply upset over what's happening in Gaza doesn't appear to be going away, and as a political bloc, they may continue to play a role in politics for years, maybe even decades. So there isn't necessarily an institutional role to fall back on. Whatever decision Kamala Harris makes will need to be a bold decision, and that leads me back to my initial question at the heart of these last two episodes, what does Kamala Harris really believe and what does she want to do with power? It's very possible that, should Harris win, she will display an assertiveness in office, not before seen. But it's also possible, and the history appears to align with this, that Harris may be caught in her own decision, struggling to find a non existent middle ground on polarizing issues, and that indecision may have profound implications in the next few years.
Arjun Singh 38:55
Thanks for listening to another episode of lever time. This episode was produced by me, Arjun Singh, with help from Chris Walker and editing support from Joel Warner and Lucy Dean Stockton, our theme music was composed by Nick Campbell. We'll be back next week with another episode of lever. Time you