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The Life of And podcast is for high-achieving women and working parents who are ready to stop living a life of “have to” and start designing a life they actually want. It’s a space where we talk honestly about the things we’re often afraid to admit — even to ourselves. The exhaustion. The ambition. The loneliness. The joy. The tension of wanting more without losing yourself in the process.
If you’re in the thick of it — feeling stretched, tired, hopeful, driven — this is your invitation to take a breath, get real, and find your way back to your own Life of And.
[00:00:00] Brian Kavicky: When they studied the glass ceiling with major corporations and they studied the cause of the glass ceiling where women were being paid less than men, they actually found the cause and it was that men negotiated for more money, women accepted the offer. So all you have to do as a woman is decide this is the number that it’s going to be and not accept it and you automatically will get it.
[00:00:22] Tiffany Sauder: I’m Tiffany Sauder, entrepreneur, wife, mom to four girls and a woman figuring it out just like you. Come on, let’s go build your Life Of And. If you have ever had to put a number on what you are worth, then this is an episode that you need to listen to. It doesn’t matter if you’re a founder setting your rates, an executive negotiating a contract, a freelancer quoting a project, or someone who has been doing something for years and it makes you feel a little sick every single time you have to say the price out loud. So this episode idea came to me because I have a friend who is starting a catering business. She’s wildly talented, people love the food she makes. And when I asked her how she was thinking about her pricing, here was what she said. I don’t know what to charge.
[00:01:12] Tiffany Sauder: I’m doing it for my friends right now so it feels kind of weird to charge them and I’m not sure I’m qualified yet and so I’m giving people a discount. Do you notice that not one of those sentences is actually about the food? They’re all about her. Her doubt, her discomfort, her fear. And I say this with so much love because I have said many of those things too. Maybe in slightly different words, maybe about different work and maybe at different stages of my career. And I suspect if you have to be close to money in any way in your job, you have had some version of this happen to you too. So this is the topic that Brian and I are going to explore with you guys today. So if you’ve been listening to the pod for a while, BK is on every single month and he has spent over 20 years coaching executives, entrepreneurs, and sales teams.
[00:02:03] Tiffany Sauder: I am one of those executives and my teams are all under his guidance. And this is a topic that we have worked on a lot together. Pricing is a really big deal. So Brian, we’re going to do the thing. Talk about money. You’re one of the few people in the world that loves to talk about money.
[00:02:20] Brian Kavicky: Oh yeah, I love it.
[00:02:21] Tiffany Sauder: So do not.
[00:02:23] Brian Kavicky: I grew up in a family that was not money centric. So I have had to learn my way into talking about money. Now I do it because I know how important it is, but I was not always that way.
[00:02:36] Tiffany Sauder: Okay. So I want this episode to be in the toolbox for women who are like, I’ve got to talk about money. I need to get comfortable about that. They’re on that bridge right now, which is like I might not be at that spot right now. So like we always do, let’s start with what’s going on behind this idea of it’s hard for me to talk about money. It’s hard for me to know how to price things. And I know those are probably two different questions, but let’s just start breaking it down first. My goal is to give some actionable things that we can all do walking out of this conversation like how do I get better at this?
[00:03:11] Brian Kavicky: Okay.
[00:03:12] Tiffany Sauder: Actually, let’s start on the other side because I’m leading the conversation. I just got to change where we’re starting, but we were just talking about a business I’m involved in. And you said one of the things that is happening is the initial price not being set right and it’s causing all kinds of downstream issues. So can we talk maybe about what happens when you get this wrong and all of the problems it creates for you downstream, which maybe will help us all understand how important it is to really understand how getting pricing right matters a lot.
[00:03:43] Brian Kavicky: A person’s ability or an organization’s ability to pay for something is different than their willingness to pay. So I can have - So
[00:03:53] Tiffany Sauder: Their ability and their willingness are different. Is that what you just said?
[00:03:56] Brian Kavicky: Right.
[00:03:56] Tiffany Sauder: Their ability to pay and their willingness to pay.
[00:03:58] Brian Kavicky: Right. You might have enough money to buy a pool for your backyard, but say, I don’t really want that. Willingness and ability is sort of the thing we’re juggling with people who are making decisions. This problem about money is really how you’ve described it. It’s somebody that says, I’ve never had to think about this before. I’ve never had to put a value on my time. I’ve never had to put a value on my hourly rate. And a lot of times they came from employment where the employer said, here’s what your hourly rate is worth. And it was dictated to them. But then if I’m an entrepreneur or I’m running something or in a case, even if I’m not setting my own rate, I’m now responsible for decisions that are big. Even valuing what is my time worth and where do I spend my time? Becomes a, what is my true hourly rate?
[00:04:49] Brian Kavicky: It’s this idea of they don’t know what to compare to. So if I’m going to say, I don’t know what my value is, the definition of value is what are you comparing it to all the time? So that’s why you get into this. It’s not like it’s your fault of, well, you have a self-esteem issue or your self-worth problems or anything. I think your friend’s case of this is what I’m not sure of. I don’t know how to do this because I’ve never done it before. In your business example, it’s this feeling of, well, we have to do this to advance something or the buyer isn’t valuing us so we’re going to do something that shows them our value so that they’re more willing to spend what we’re worth after we start doing work, which isn’t a great premise, but that’s what the thinking is.
[00:05:38] Tiffany Sauder: But some of the downstream effect of poor pricing, I mean, I saw this in the early days of our agency where it’s like I was so focused on selling my number. Let’s say it was a half million bucks a year. I didn’t have the discernment yet to see if it was going to be 50 clients or two clients. I was just trying to sell a half million dollars a year. And I started to realize pricing stuff in a way that’s unprofitable is not a good thing to grow on, which sounds obvious when I say it out loud, but I think this pricing discipline is about saying, is the thing I’m charging going to actually be profitable for the business or is that irrelevant?
[00:06:15] Brian Kavicky: It’s actually the only thing that’s relevant. Saying I got to sell half a million dollars is irrelevant if it’s not profitable. Because selling a half a million dollars and losing $300,000 of that would be a profit. If I’m like, oh, it costs me eight to deliver five, that would be really devastating to the business. So it’s, here’s how much money I want to make. What the pricing that gets me to what I want to make? If I’m a caterer and I’m going, well, I’m going to go to my friends, but I’m not sure my value yet or any of those things, I should be using that time to experiment with my value to see what is the marketplace going to pay. But my minimum that I should charge should be based on what I want to make for that. And if I go, this is what I need to make, there’s my floor.
[00:06:59] Brian Kavicky: Now let’s see what the market will bear. That’s what I keep testing.
[00:07:03] Tiffany Sauder: So that’s so interesting you said that because when I was prepping for this episode, one of the things I wrote down in my own experience around money is the more clear I got on my values, I would say my values and my outcomes, my goals, the more disciplined I became in my pricing. So one in my Life Of And world is like, I do not want to travel a lot right now. So if you were going to give me an opportunity to go speak in Dallas, Texas, I mean, I’ll do it for 50 grand, but I’m not doing it for 2,500. I would just get very clear in my decision making when I get really clear in my goals and really clear on like, these are the boundaries. I’m just not doing it. Or I feel like in my early career I was less clear on those things.
[00:07:44] Tiffany Sauder: It was more about I’m just trying to be successful or I’m trying to get the company to be a certain size. And I was much more dilutive in my decision making in that world.
[00:07:54] Brian Kavicky: But I think as you frame that speaking example, it’s the, here’s the number I would say no to. I think if somebody has this idea of here’s what I know my value is not and starts with that, giving yourself a floor to say no is much better than saying, here’s what I’d be willing. Because willing is a big range. No is a single number like below this, not going to happen.
[00:08:18] Tiffany Sauder: Okay. So in our pursuit of having strong, I’d just say pricing vocabulary and hygiene around that, one is understanding what your floor is. Underneath this, we’re done.
[00:08:31] Brian Kavicky: Yes.
[00:08:32] Tiffany Sauder: Okay. So what else in the world of pricing?
[00:08:35] Brian Kavicky: So there are two ways that people have a discounting problem. One is in the moment discounting where somebody folds and the other is pre-pricing discounting. So in other words, you’re sitting at your desk trying to figure out what you’re going to charge. Most people’s tendency is to keep lowering the price, not to keep adding 1% to it. So the most important thing that you can do is to set the amount before you have the conversation and to say, this is what I’m going to charge or this is the number that it’s going to be so that you can actually state that number factually. We talked about the discomfort about talking about money, but if you walk into a bank and a banker asks you the question, so what’s your income right now? You just tell them. But if we were having a conversation with a bunch of people in a party and somebody says, “So what are you making right now?” You’d be like, “That’s a weird question,” because context matters.
[00:09:31] Brian Kavicky: But that banker is saying, “I need to know this in order to help you with this. I need to do this.” So you know that somebody is going to ask you at some point, what’s the price? So if you’re ready with your answer of this is the price because you’ve already decided what that is, you say it in a way that it doesn’t question. But if you go, “Well, I don’t know. I was thinking this,” that suggests to somebody, oh, it’s negotiable or there’s a range or any of those things. Even if they’re not trying to screw you over, they’re going to be like, “Well, I don’t know if I trust that because you didn’t just say what it was.” But the more factual you are in the price to do that. The second thing is if you’re in a situation where you feel like you should discount, understand that every time you discount, you cause distrust.
[00:10:16] Brian Kavicky: So if I say, “Hey, would you like this glass of water? I’ll sell it to you for a dollar. Will you take it for a nickel?” You’re like, “Why’d you try to sell it to me for a dollar?” So discounting has to be a decision that I’m never going to lower my price in front of somebody because if I do that, they’ll never trust my pricing ever because they think I’m always trying to rip them off first. That’s not your intention, but that’s how somebody reads it.
[00:10:40] Tiffany Sauder: Interesting. So if somebody says, if you say, “This is my price, it’s $2,500,” and they say, “Oh, my budget is 1,500.” Then how does that conversation… Then what?
[00:10:49] Brian Kavicky: Doesn’t sound like this is the right fit.
[00:10:51] Tiffany Sauder: We’d love to make it work. So
[00:10:53] Brian Kavicky: You’re going to pay 2,500. See, if I’ve already decided 2,500 is the number, I can have that conversation. Can you do better? No, that is the number. Because if I say, sure, I’ll do it for 1,500. What did I just say to them? That I gave you a fake number? They’re not going to trust the 1,500. That’s why people will discount things and somebody will say, “Oh, we really appreciate your discount.” And then they’ll lose the business and they’ll go, “Why did I lose it? I actually lowered the price to what they were asking for.” Well, it’s because you broke the trust. That can’t happen. So you’re better off holding firm and letting the other person decide.
[00:11:30] Tiffany Sauder: Are there times when you would look at the environment and try to say, okay, maybe there’s assets they have that aren’t money that are meaningful to what I’m trying to do. I know one of the things Rachel’s good at doing is saying, “Okay, you might not be able to pay the full amount for podcast production, but I want you to be a guest on this many shows or give me testimonials.” Or she adds a different kind of currency to it that I think is I look at that and say that’s strategic.
[00:11:57] Brian Kavicky: Those are terms changes. Here’s my terms. So if you want a price that looks like that, here are the terms that have equal value to me to get there. So that’s not discounting. Okay, let’s talk about that. That’s trading terms.
[00:12:09] Tiffany Sauder: Okay, let’s talk about that because the answer can be, I can do it for 1,500 if it looks like this. Instead of, I’ll use examples, speaking for 90 minutes, I can do virtual for 30 for that price or something like that. It can be changed.
[00:12:23] Brian Kavicky: It can be changed as long as that has equal value to you. Okay. So the danger of somebody that is, it’s called horse trading. Yeah, if you want me to do that, come on my podcast, is that you will horse trade things that appear to have value, but don’t actually impact anything. If I say, yeah, I want you to come on my podcast and do this, it may not have a $1,500 value if I don’t have to pay anybody else to be on my podcast to say the same things you would. It’s not really a benefit. It’s sort of a fake. I’m getting you to do something, but if it doesn’t benefit the business -
[00:12:56] Tiffany Sauder: Then it doesn’t matter.
[00:12:57] Brian Kavicky: It doesn’t matter.
[00:12:57] Tiffany Sauder: So you’re saying don’t horse trade with things that don’t actually have value to you?
[00:13:00] Brian Kavicky: Correct.
[00:13:01] Tiffany Sauder: To create the appearance of?
[00:13:02] Brian Kavicky: Yes.
[00:13:03] Tiffany Sauder: Yes. So if you’re entering a new market, let’s say you’re wanting to start a new business, you’re getting into new venture, how do you understand what people will pay?
[00:13:14] Brian Kavicky: And does
[00:13:15] Tiffany Sauder: It matter?
[00:13:16] Brian Kavicky: It absolutely does matter. I will tell you 90% of the marketplace charging too little. In retail stores, if they raise the price $5, you’d still buy it. So you’re walking into an environment where the marketplace is basically saying, “Okay, this is valuable,” but they would pay more if asked to. So if I’m going into a new market and I’ve never priced something like your catering friend, I’ve never had pricing, I’ve never done anything, it’s acknowledging that the first time I do this is going to be a guess. But if somebody pays for it, that means that they valued it. So the next thing that I would do is I would add and I would say, “I’m going to pick a number. I’m going to add 10%. I’m going to add 20%. I’m going to add money to it. And the next time I’m going to charge more.” And it doesn’t matter what the more is, I’m just testing the market.
[00:14:06] Brian Kavicky: If somebody pays at that price and go, “Well, that’s not it.” And so what you’re looking for is what is that line where people go, “Oh, that’s too much.” And then when you hit that, you go, “Okay, I’ve now found the market. I’m going to sit here for a while.” So it does take a little trial and error to get to. And my encouragement would be add a lot earlier because you’re probably way underpricing yourself early on because you’re afraid of what people think or do. Or to your friend’s point, I don’t know if I’m good yet. Well, let’s see how good you are. Charge more.
[00:14:38] Tiffany Sauder: What about competitive intelligence? Worth going through it or just go out and experiment?
[00:14:43] Brian Kavicky: So competitive intelligence is really about finding what competitors can’t or won’t do. And as far as pricing, it’s competitors who can’t price to a level or won’t price to a level. So it’s sort of do it to know it, but don’t set your prices based on anyone else because your unique values are different than somebody else. And if we’re just looking at the price, you’re commoditizing yourself and you’re saying, “Well, I need to look like everybody else.” That actually makes it harder for you to get customers if you look like everybody else. I had a client recently that said, “Yeah, I lost a deal. I did everything right. I presented like the competition. We were within 1% of the competitor’s number. I mean, we kind of did.” And I was like, “Ah, you look too much like them.” And they deliberated for a very long time and said, “We just went with them.” But you lost it in the, I look like somebody else.
[00:15:39] Brian Kavicky: So you’re better off being - It’s like
[00:15:40] Tiffany Sauder: Vanilla and vanilla bean
[00:15:41] Brian Kavicky: Ice cream.
[00:15:41] Tiffany Sauder: Yes. It
[00:15:41] Brian Kavicky: Was
[00:15:42] Tiffany Sauder: The same.
[00:15:43] Brian Kavicky: I would argue they’re not.
[00:15:46] Tiffany Sauder: So with the guy who came in 1% better. Yeah,
[00:15:49] Brian Kavicky: Exactly.
[00:15:50] Tiffany Sauder: Vanilla bean is forever arguing for its position.
[00:15:53] Brian Kavicky: Delicious.
[00:15:54] Tiffany Sauder: It’s the same.
[00:15:57] Brian Kavicky: The little black speckles.
[00:16:01] Tiffany Sauder: I want to take a quick moment to thank my partners at Share Your Genius. For the past four years, they have been an incredible part of my journey behind the microphone. Share Your Genius is a content and podcast production agency that helps leaders and brands bring their message to life. So whether you’re trying to find your voice, develop a content strategy, or get your leader behind a microphone, they’re going to help you make it simple, strategic, and impactful. Do you see a difference in pricing psychology, pricing confidence, pricing ability of your female entrepreneurs versus men? Do you see a difference?
[00:16:37] Brian Kavicky: Yes. I see it in two different areas. I see female entrepreneurs getting involved in situations that they shouldn’t be involved in on their own team. In other words, I’m- I’m sorry,
[00:16:46] Tiffany Sauder: You’re breaking up a little bit. Keep going.
[00:16:50] Brian Kavicky: They’re spending too much time on the petty things, the little things, the drama, all of those things. And that hourly rate should be calculated based on what is the total dollars that my business produces divided by the hours I’m working. And those can be 10, $15,000. You should not work on a problem that is below that hourly rate. The other thing is this idea of what was the glass ceiling. When they studied the glass ceiling with major corporations and they studied the cause of the glass ceiling where women were being paid less than men, they actually found the cause and it was that men negotiated for more money, women accepted the offer. So all you have to do as a woman is decide this is the number that it’s going to be and not accept it. And you automatically will get it. And nobody’s doing it on purpose.
[00:17:39] Brian Kavicky: Those employers were going, “Here’s what the job pays for.” And the men were going, “I don’t think it’s enough.” And the women are going, “I’ll take it.” If the women would’ve done the same thing, they would’ve paid the same thing. So it’s how do I experiment with my value and see where it is? And then when somebody goes, “I don’t see it, it’s not worth it,” that you don’t take it personally and go, “I really didn’t get that one. I charged too much. Maybe I’m not worth it.” It’s like, no, you just found the top. So just, I’m going to hug the top now.
[00:18:07] Tiffany Sauder: How much of pricing is about your own inner confidence, belief, sort of chutzpah that it’s like, yeah, I’m ready for somebody to pay me 50 grand to go speak. I’m ready to put a plate together like it’s for the Queen of England. What does that look like? Is it some of it your own confidence or is it, no, it’s just mechanically what you need to do and you will understand what the market will pay for where you are?
[00:18:34] Brian Kavicky: So if I’ve never spoken before to an audience and I think, you know what? I’d really love to do a keynote and I don’t even have a keynote written, I probably can’t go out there and ask $50,000 to do it because I’ve never done it before. So there is a reality check of nobody’s going to pay it. But the other piece is, well, if I have a good one and I think it’s worth it and somebody sees another talk and says, Can you do this? And you say, yeah, I get charged this though. They may pay it if you have an experience of one. So it’s kind of this confidence of, I need to go find out what my value is and then constantly work to improve the value that I’m bringing in order to get those rates and to sort of be ridiculous of I would like 45, $50,000 for an hour of presentation and I want to work towards that.
[00:19:24] Brian Kavicky: That is feasible. But yeah, your own confidence or your own ability to where it shows up negative is somebody that is that good that’s charging $2,500. And people are like, “That was so good, blah, blah, blah.” But remember, the dollars you’re communicating communicate the level of what somebody’s expectations are. So if somebody’s like, “I heard you’re an amazing speaker and that you have audiences everywhere that love you and you’re like, yeah, I’ll do it for 500 bucks.” People are like, “Well, maybe you’re not that good.” You have to be consistent with what that value is of if I’m delivering high quality, I have to charge for high quality. If I’m delivering entry level stuff, I have to charge entry level stuff. But you have to do that and the market has to give you feedback on that. It’s
[00:20:09] Tiffany Sauder: Interesting to hear you say those things out loud because it is true. If you’ve told me Brené Brown gets paid $500, I would be like, “Why? That’s so weird.” We do have this value equation that’s kind of invisible to us until you feel it get pushed on. That’s really interesting. 50 Cent has a leadership book. You should read
[00:20:28] Brian Kavicky: It. I heard it’s very good.
[00:20:30] Tiffany Sauder: It’s actually really good. But he says you’ll never get paid more than the value you believe you have. This idea of… He talked about some record deals where he was like, “I’m worth this.” And a lot of people told him he wasn’t. He was like, “I was the one who had to hold out belief that I was to find the one who sort of met my understanding of
[00:20:48] Brian Kavicky: My value.”
[00:20:50] Tiffany Sauder: I think I’ve struggled with that.
[00:20:52] Brian Kavicky: I have definitely struggled.
[00:20:55] Tiffany Sauder: Personally you
[00:20:56] Brian Kavicky: Have? Oh yeah. It’s not something that I think you just all of a sudden good. If you’re always working to expand your value to the community, the people you serve, you’re always questioning the value of is it worth it or not or any of those things. And I have found that our clients that pay consistently with the impact that we’re making on their organization, which is at the higher tiers, appreciate us more, leverage us more, complain less, do all the things that we say. And the people who are not in the ideal client because they’re underpaying are the ones that are always struggling and not doing things and telling us it’s our fault. So you have this wide range of how did we get here? And that was all self-creative. Well, we decided to help. And that I decided to help actually turned out with bad consequences.
[00:21:49] Tiffany Sauder: What is the most expensive, maybe self-sabotaging pricing decisions or behavior that you see women make or people make?
[00:22:01] Brian Kavicky: Is that they’re not objectively looking at the value from the eye of the other person. So it’s the caterer who’s not looking at, well, this person didn’t have to make anything. They had people complimenting the food. They didn’t have to do anything except write a check and their guests had a delightful experience. What was the value to that person? A lot higher than the cost of the groceries and the labor to make it. Not putting that on there. Or if I’m business to business and I’m making another impact and you can make a million or two million or $10 million impact to go, “Yeah, I’ll charge you $20,000 to do that. You could have charged a million.” It’s just this undervalued, not sitting back and saying, “What is it that I’m actually going to do? And if I was sitting from their lens, what might they be willing to pay for that?
[00:22:52] Brian Kavicky: “ Because the objective exercise of doing that causes you to go, “Wait a second. I could charge a ton more if I just looked at it through that lens instead of worrying about how do I feel charging so much for myself.” Well,
[00:23:03] Tiffany Sauder: That story makes me think of, remember when Baby Tiffany was in your office pitching to Gossiger? I think it was like 15 grand a month or something like that. And I was pacing like a lion. There is no way they’re going to pay this. It just felt like this enormous contract. And I was like, “There’s no way.” And you were like, “Do the math as a percentage of what you’re asking them.” It would be like the equivalent of somebody putting it in front of Element3 at the time, a contract that was like $20 a month. It was not a real decision and you were reframing it of in the scale of the company that they have, everything else that’s going on, this is not the same level of decision as you’re seeing in your little world.
[00:23:47] Brian Kavicky: Right.
[00:23:47] Tiffany Sauder: Is that what you mean by that?
[00:23:49] Brian Kavicky: That’s their petty cash.
[00:23:50] Tiffany Sauder: Yes.
[00:23:50] Brian Kavicky: They have that money just sitting around.
[00:23:52] Tiffany Sauder: Do you remember that? It was reframing and also I just sweated the whole way there and then they signed it.
[00:23:59] Brian Kavicky: Immediately.
[00:23:59] Tiffany Sauder: Fairly quickly.
[00:24:00] Brian Kavicky: Yes.
[00:24:01] Tiffany Sauder: And then Brian looks at you at this thing where he is like, “See, I told you I was right.”
[00:24:04] Brian Kavicky: I did not do that.
[00:24:09] Tiffany Sauder: Okay. So if we have a freelancer or an entrepreneur or someone like me who’s curating their own brand, having to sell their own deals, what is one practical thing that we can do to put ourselves in that 5% that is charging properly and not those that are undercharging? What’s one thing we can do?
[00:24:29] Brian Kavicky: I think it’s steps. First, decide what the market benefits from that and to do that objective exercise is this is what they could pay. And then judge, okay, what’s the quality of me to deliver against their could pay? And am I comfortable saying I’m going to start there? And then third, it’s make a commitment that if they do pay that, the next time I’m going to raise it because you need to constantly be testing your value against the marketplace.
[00:24:52] Tiffany Sauder: Yeah, I love it. Ladies, we’ve been talking a lot about money on the podcast with our money confessions episodes and just talking about balance sheet thinking and not just how much money we’re making and how much money we’re spending. And this whole idea around pricing for me is so adjacent to that where it’s like if we can sell things and we can increase the value of the thing that we’re doing and increase the value of what we’re getting paid and for every hour that we’re spending, that is a way that we increase the velocity in our lives. And it’s not just about making more money, but it is about creating more space, having more extra to bless others, to serve others, having just extra capacity that we can use for those around us. And so for me, that’s where this pricing discussion is important. If we are doing the work, if we have done the work for the gift of helping and serving and doing good for others and we aren’t pricing it properly, we inadvertently keep ourselves small.
[00:25:52] Tiffany Sauder: And so for me, that’s what this pricing discussion is all about. I know I’ve certainly had some things that are pressed on where I need to keep pushing myself to say, don’t just try to get the next thing on my calendar, but making sure I’m really putting things that are a good equation of the value I’m offering and bringing and what I’m receiving in return. So Brian, as always, thank you for joining. And if you guys are having problems like this inside of your teams or you look at your organization, say our revenue should just be more than it is for all of the motion that we have in place, please click on the link and show notes and schedule an hour with Brian. These are the kinds of problems he solves for teams and for executives every single day. As always, thanks for joining.
[00:26:34] Tiffany Sauder: And if there’s someone that you think could benefit from this episode, please share it with them. It is the fastest way that we grow the show. Thanks for joining me.