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What if the patterns in your relationships are not just about communication, compatibility, or choosing the wrong person, but subconscious wounds your nervous system learned years ago? In this episode, Dr. Taz sits down with Thais Gibson, PhD, bestselling author, counselor, speaker, attachment theory expert, and founder of The Personal Development School, to explore how attachment styles, childhood conditioning, core wounds, subconscious programming, and nervous system regulation shape the way we love, fight, connect, and pull away.
In this episode, Thais explains why the conscious mind often cannot overpower the subconscious mind, and why so many people keep repeating the same relationship patterns even when they know better. She breaks down the four attachment styles: secure, anxious, dismissive avoidant, and fearful avoidant, and explains how each style can show up in adult relationships, dating, marriage, family dynamics, conflict, ghosting, love bombing, emotional shutdown, clinginess, and the painful push-pull cycle.
Dr. Taz and Thais discuss why affirmations may not be enough to heal deep core wounds, why the subconscious mind responds more to emotion and imagery than language, and how childhood experiences can become the lens through which we interpret adult relationships. Thais also shares a practical 21-day rewiring exercise using memory, emotion, visualization, and repetition to help shift core wounds like abandonment, betrayal, shame, unworthiness, and fear of being trapped.
If you’re listening to this and thinking, “I know something is off in my body, but I don’t know where to start,” join the Circle here: 👉 https://holplus.co/circle
Attachment is not just a relationship story. It is a nervous system story. Dr. Taz and Thais discuss how unresolved attachment wounds can keep people in fight-or-flight, create emotional trigger cycles, increase conflict in relationships, and shape the health of families across generations.
Learn more about support related to this conversation:
Integrative Mental Health Services for Emotional Wellbeing: https://holplus.co/services/mental-health/
Integrative Mental Health Services for Emotional Wellbeing: https://holplus.co/services/mental-health/
Dr. Taz and Thais also discuss why anxious and avoidant partners are often drawn to each other, why secure attachment can feel boring before someone heals, why high-conflict couples can still change when both people are willing to do the work, and why healthy relationships require more than insight. They require rewiring core wounds, understanding your needs, regulating your nervous system, learning healthy communication, and building real boundaries.
If you struggle with relationship anxiety, emotional shutdown, fear of abandonment, fear of betrayal, ghosting, love bombing, conflict, people-pleasing, or repeating the same relationship cycle with different people, this episode will help you understand the deeper pattern and where healing can begin.
About The Guest:
Thais Gibson, PhD, is a bestselling author, counselor, speaker, and one of the leading voices in attachment theory and personal development. She is the founder of Gibson Integrated Attachment Theory and co-founder of The Personal Development School, where she helps people understand and rewire subconscious relationship patterns, attachment wounds, and emotional conditioning.
About Dr. Taz:
Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz) is a triple board-certified integrative medicine physician,
bestselling author, and founder of hol+ a multi-location integrative medicine practice.
Learn more: https://doctortaz.com/about
Stay Connected:
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Book a Hol+ Consultation: https://holplus.co/locations/virtual/
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Connect with Thais Gibson:
https://www.personaldevelopmentschool.com/
https://www.youtube.com/@ThePersonalDevelopmentSchool
https://www.instagram.com/thepersonaldevelopmentschool/
https://www.personaldevelopmentschool.com/
https://www.youtube.com/@ThePersonalDevelopmentSchool
https://www.instagram.com/thepersonaldevelopmentschool/
Host & Production Team
Host: Dr. Taz; Produced by ClipGrowth.com (Producer: Pat Gostek)
Chapters
00:00 Why affirmations may not heal core wounds
03:35 Thais Gibson’s story and the subconscious mind
08:12 How childhood conditioning shapes adult relationships
10:55 The four attachment styles explained
13:14 Anxious attachment, abandonment, and relationship anxiety
17:55 Dismissive avoidant attachment, ghosting, and emotional shutdown
24:17 Fearful avoidant attachment and the push-pull cycle
29:21 Why certain attachment styles attract each other
35:00 The 5 pillars of rewiring attachment patterns
38:40 Why affirmations do not work
00:00 Why affirmations may not heal core wounds
03:35 Thais Gibson’s story and the subconscious mind
08:12 How childhood conditioning shapes adult relationships
10:55 The four attachment styles explained
13:14 Anxious attachment, abandonment, and relationship anxiety
17:55 Dismissive avoidant attachment, ghosting, and emotional shutdown
24:17 Fearful avoidant attachment and the push-pull cycle
29:21 Why certain attachment styles attract each other
35:00 The 5 pillars of rewiring attachment patterns
38:40 Why affirmations do not work
Creators and Guests
Host
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[00:00:00] Thais Gibson, PhD: I do not believe in affirmations at all.
[00:00:03] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:00:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: Affirmations are [00:00:05] the conscious mind speaking to the conscious mind. Okay? Your conscious mind speaks language. If [00:00:10] I say to you, "Okay, Dr. Taz, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant," y- you, you hear do [00:00:15] not, but you probably flashed a pink elephant, right?
[00:00:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so your conscious mind heard do not, but it was too late. Your subconscious [00:00:20] flashed a, a pink elephant. Your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and images. It doesn't [00:00:25] hear or, or recognize language in the same way at all. And so when we use [00:00:30] affirmations, we're using our conscious mind to just reach our conscious mind.
[00:00:33] Thais Gibson, PhD: Nobody has [00:00:35] core wounds at a conscious level of mind. Nobody wakes up and says, "Today, I'm [00:00:40] gonna tell myself 47 times that I'm gonna be abandoned by everybody." Yeah. Right? These are [00:00:45] preconditioned, imprinted programs at a subconscious level because of childhood events that were repeated enough that they built [00:00:50] these neural structures in our
[00:00:51] Dr. Taz: brain.
[00:00:51] Dr. Taz: Thais Gibson, PhD, is a bestselling author, [00:00:55] counselor, speaker, and one of the leading voices in attachment theory and personal development. [00:01:00] She's the founder of the Gibson Integrated Attachment Theory and co-founder of the Personal [00:01:05] Development School.
[00:01:05] Thais Gibson, PhD: When our brain gets imprinted with these fears in childhood, as [00:01:10] an adult, we project them onto everything.
[00:01:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: So what happens is somebody [00:01:15] has this imprint from childhood of fearing being abandoned or disliked or excluded, all these very, like, you know, [00:01:20] social fears, and that forms a lot of their conditioning and their subconscious. They're [00:01:25] seeing their whole int- external world through this lens, and then the moment they don't get a [00:01:30] call back or the moment that somebody, you know, isn't texting them enough or didn't immediately ask them on another [00:01:35] date- Yeah
[00:01:35] Thais Gibson, PhD: they're going to jump to those conclusions. It dysregulates all their emotions and their [00:01:40] nervous system as a result, and now they're playing out these patterns, and their behaviors follow. And so they'll [00:01:45] usually be individuals who cling a lot. They try to move very fast in relationships. They hold on tight, [00:01:50] and in doing so, they often accidentally don't see people's boundaries and don't [00:01:55] recognize that they're there, and they can accidentally pressure people in relationships and make them sort of pull [00:02:00] away, if anything.
[00:02:01] Dr. Taz: Hmm. Thais has dedicated over a decade to [00:02:05] understanding how early childhood experiences shape adult relationships and subconscious [00:02:10] behavior patterns. Please join me in welcoming Thais to the show. [00:02:15] This episode is sponsored by WHOLEplus, a [00:02:20] holistic health platform built around education, personalization, and integrative [00:02:25] care.
[00:02:25] Dr. Taz: WHOLEplus blends holistic, integrative, and functional medicine clinics with [00:02:30] learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course, this podcast, so you're not [00:02:35] just treated, you're informed. The platform also includes holistic health quizzes and a [00:02:40] curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support your body at the root level.[00:02:45]
[00:02:45] Dr. Taz: Whole Plus is holistic healthcare designed for real life. [00:02:50] Visit us at wholeplus.co to learn more about the platform. Again, that's [00:02:55] H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O. All right, I'm super excited about [00:03:00] this next topic because we talk a lot about relationships. I spend a lot of time talking about the [00:03:05] family and how we need to think about health as a family body, not just our individual [00:03:10] body, and so many people get really confused by this.
[00:03:13] Dr. Taz: But I think [00:03:15] so much is wound up in our relationships. So Thais, you spent a lot [00:03:20] of time talking about relationships and attachment and what that [00:03:25] means for us. Tell my audience a little bit about your background [00:03:30] and how you even fell into studying and talking a lot about attachment theory. [00:03:35]
[00:03:35] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah, it's a great question.
[00:03:36] Thais Gibson, PhD: I mean, I'll try to make a really long story quite short, but- Okay ... I grew up in a very [00:03:40] turbulent household, definitely was a very sensitive kid, internalized a lot of these [00:03:45] things, a lot of these patterns, and had a lot of challenges in relationships. You know, one day I [00:03:50] was very, you know, wanting to be in a relationship, and then I would flip-flop and feel like I just didn't wanna be in a [00:03:55] relationship at all, and had a lot of sort of ups and downs in relationships, and was [00:04:00] very...
[00:04:00] Thais Gibson, PhD: I was the fearful avoidance, so I had an anxious side and an avoidance side, and I sort of pinballed a lot, and I just [00:04:05] always felt like relationships were very hard. Hmm. And I was [00:04:10] in a psychology class one day in university and, and somebody said to me, "Well, your conscious [00:04:15] mind cannot outwill or overpower your subconscious mind."
[00:04:18] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:04:18] Thais Gibson, PhD: And [00:04:20] that really hit me for a number of reasons, but one of them being that I had told [00:04:25] myself many times that I was gonna behave a certain way or act a certain way or be more [00:04:30] consistent or not push away so much, and I had told myself many times that I was [00:04:35] going to do certain things, and then found myself unable to follow through.[00:04:40]
[00:04:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: And when somebody said, "Well, your conscious mind can't outwill your subconscious mind," I was like, "Well, what, what's that all [00:04:45] about then?" What does that mean exactly? And what I came to find is that your conscious [00:04:50] mind is your logical, analytical thinking mind. It's responsible for roughly 3 to [00:04:55] 5% of our daily beliefs, thoughts, choices, and emotions.
[00:04:59] Thais Gibson, PhD: And your [00:05:00] subconscious and unconscious collectively are responsible for 95 to [00:05:05] 97%-
[00:05:06] Dr. Taz: Wow ... of our
[00:05:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: choices and feelings. And what your subconscious, more than [00:05:10] unconscious, but subconscious in the majority- What it's responsible for is it's the giant warehouse of [00:05:15] all of your conditioning. So it is literally the storage center of the [00:05:20] beliefs you've acquired about yourself over time, about relationships, about people, [00:05:25] about what to expect- Mm
[00:05:26] Thais Gibson, PhD: about how to give and receive love. Um, it's the [00:05:30] emotions and the behaviors that often follow suit when these beliefs come up. And [00:05:35] we'll actually, you know, we'll dive into this I'm sure today, but you'll come to see that if we are not aware of [00:05:40] or in charge of our conditioning, especially our belief systems, we're actually not in charge of our actions nearly as much [00:05:45] as we think.
[00:05:46] Thais Gibson, PhD: And you'll also come to see that we, [00:05:50] we think a lot about the nervous system and doing things like, oh, breathwork and meditation, and those are great practices, [00:05:55] but they can actually functionally be band-aids if we are [00:06:00] only doing them when we first have our conditioning triggered. So for example, if somebody [00:06:05] grows up and they have a fear of being abandoned, and that fear of being abandoned is activated maybe [00:06:10] because of their attachment patterns that they acquired from childhood, they can say that they're [00:06:15] not gonna get dysregulated or triggered, but they will.
[00:06:17] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:06:18] Thais Gibson, PhD: And that belief triggering [00:06:20] them causes them to often go into a state of feeling distress, which then, you know, [00:06:25] emotions have the, the cortisol response and the norepinephrine response, and that then signals to [00:06:30] the, the body essentially, the nervous system, to go into fight or flight or sympathetic nervous system mode.
[00:06:34] Thais Gibson, PhD: And a [00:06:35] lot of people are then like, "Oh, let's just breathe through it," or, "Let's just meditate." And it's like, [00:06:40] that's great, we can do other things, even completion cycles and somatic practices to get back [00:06:45] to a centered state again. But then an hour later, if that same belief gets triggered and you [00:06:50] fear abandonment again, then you're gonna go back through the same cycle.
[00:06:52] Thais Gibson, PhD: Wow. And so just right, the nervous system [00:06:55] alone isn't quite enough. We actually have to rewire and, and leverage neuroplasticity to change some of those [00:07:00] beliefs. So that was something I really dove into understanding and became really obsessed with the [00:07:05] neuroscience of how we actually retrain our brains and, and change things, and, you know, really trying to understand [00:07:10] where my own conditioning came from in childhood that led to a lot of my emotions, my patterns.
[00:07:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: And as I [00:07:15] changed that within myself very deeply, I just couldn't wait to share it with everybody. Oh my God. I was like, [00:07:20] I've, I've gotta share this and put it out there. And so I, I, um, gave a lot of free workshops [00:07:25] for a few years, started a, a client-based practice, um, and worked there [00:07:30] for seven, eight years, and then eventually had a long wait list, put material online, and, um, [00:07:35] that sort of transpired into a lot of the online materials that we have today.
[00:07:37] Dr. Taz: What a, what an incredible story. You know, this is so [00:07:40] interesting because I've been hearing and talking to a lot of people about this idea of the [00:07:45] subconscious and how it does drive behavior and can be kind of what blocks [00:07:50] us from what we want or from, like, moving forward. And it sounds like a [00:07:55] lot of it, would you say, is all preset in childhood?
[00:07:58] Dr. Taz: Is that where m- is there an age at [00:08:00] which it's sort of preset? Are we coming in with already some stuff? [00:08:05] Or, you know, I'm just, I'm just trying to get a gauge, like is this like a age one through seven type [00:08:10] situation or, or what do you think?
[00:08:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: That's an excellent question. So we all obviously come in [00:08:15] with a genetic predisposition.
[00:08:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. But then we have certain stages in life at [00:08:20] which we are most likely to soak up our deepest conditioning. So a lot of people use the term subconscious and [00:08:25] unconscious interchangeably, but they're quite different. Namely, that, you know, one of the [00:08:30] fundamental differences, the subconscious mind you can, you can actually access information and, and, [00:08:35] um, reflect on information and, and see, for example, oh, maybe you [00:08:40] feel good enough at, at 44 years old-- not good enough at 44 years old.
[00:08:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: You can go back and say, [00:08:45] "Oh my gosh, that started at 7. I have this memory. I can gather that information. At seven years old, [00:08:50] XYZ happened." Whereas the unconscious mind, y- we can [00:08:55] usually only access in deep hypnotic states or trance-like states, and unconscious memories we don't [00:09:00] often remember. So for example, somebody may as an adult have an aversion to peanut butter, [00:09:05] and they may not know why, and it could be that at three years old, their older brother [00:09:10] dared them to eat a jar of peanut butter and they got sick to their stomach, and now they have this stored emotional association in [00:09:15] regards to peanut butter, but they can't access it, right?
[00:09:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: So our subconscious mind, we can access information from. Our unconscious is the [00:09:20] deepest and earliest conditioning and sort of affects a lot of our autonomic nervous [00:09:25] system and, and fundamental processes that way, whereas our subconscious is more conditioning-based. And [00:09:30] if you look at how we develop our conditioning, the first three years, zero to three years old, [00:09:35] our brains are producing more alpha and even theta brainwaves, which puts us in a state of [00:09:40] hyper-suggestibility.
[00:09:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: So in other words, it means that we're deeply absorbing our conditioning. But that often [00:09:45] lives at the unconscious level of mind. Then ages three to eight is our next [00:09:50] most fundamental part of how we absorb conditioning, and that's again because we're producing a lot of alpha [00:09:55] brainwaves during that time, so we're sort of like sponges in our early childhood and, and we absorb a lot of [00:10:00] conditioning there.
[00:10:01] Thais Gibson, PhD: So I often refer to our conditioning as coming from childhood as, as a very [00:10:05] fundamental, foundational building piece. But conditioning is always happening. We have [00:10:10] neuroplasticity. Like it doesn't stop because you turn nine. It doesn't stop. Right. You know, it goes for your whole life, [00:10:15] and this is part of why you see, for example, people saying things like, "Oh, you're the sum [00:10:20] of the people you spend the most time around, the five people you spend the most time around," or why you can be in a long-term [00:10:25] marriage or relationship with somebody and take on some of their mannerisms or expressions.
[00:10:28] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because [00:10:30] how conditioning actually takes shape is whatever we're exposed to through repetition and emotion across [00:10:35] time, especially if in a suggestible state, um, that's actually what's firing and wiring the [00:10:40] neural networks in our brain. So there's repeatable ways to actually change our conditioning, and I'm sure we can get into some of that.
[00:10:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: But, [00:10:45] um, yeah, we, we fundamentally have the most of our conditioning from childhood in those age [00:10:50] brackets. But of course, conditioning is taking place along the course of our
[00:10:53] Dr. Taz: life. Along the way. So [00:10:55] interesting. Now you talk about different attachment styles, right? That there's some different [00:11:00] styles. Can you walk us through some of those and, you know, how could we recognize maybe [00:11:05] which style we're falling into?
[00:11:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yes. So there are four styles. Okay. Everyone can have [00:11:10] one. And this is some of the most long-standing research that came out of Cambridge University originally, [00:11:15] was traditional attachment theory research. Our body of work really built on this, which was not just understanding your attachment [00:11:20] style, but actually leveraging neuroscience to change what's not working.
[00:11:22] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. Um, but what you'll [00:11:25] see is the first attachment style is called the securely attached style.
[00:11:28] Dr. Taz: Okay. I think
[00:11:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: roughly [00:11:30] 50% of the population, and what's very interesting is secure attachment moves in lockstep with the divorce rate. [00:11:35] So as there are more securely attached people, the divorce rate goes down.
[00:11:37] Thais Gibson, PhD: As there are less securely attached people, the divorce rate goes [00:11:40] up, and they're roughly sitting around that 50% mark. Now, [00:11:45] from the securely attached individuals, part of what's really fundamental to their conditioning [00:11:50] is, you know, and one of the reasons why securely attached people report having the longest lasting relationships, but [00:11:55] also report being the most fulfilled in those long-lasting relationships- Mm
[00:11:58] Thais Gibson, PhD: which is an important [00:12:00] differentiator. Right. Right. Working with lots of couples, I've seen people that are not, you know, they come in and they're not [00:12:05] very happy, so it does make a big difference. Um, but one of the biggest foundational [00:12:10] pieces that securely attached adults have is they get a lot of what we call [00:12:15] approach-oriented behaviors.
[00:12:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: That sounds like a, a small thing, but has a huge impact. Approach-oriented [00:12:20] behaviors from their parents mean the parents are attuned to the kids. They [00:12:25] notice when the child's distressed, and they make an effort to approach and soothe the child.
[00:12:29] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:12:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:12:30] And when that is a foundational piece of somebody's childhood, they learn a whole bunch of things through inference.
[00:12:34] Thais Gibson, PhD: They learn [00:12:35] my emotions are safe to express. I'm worthy of love on my good days and in my hard [00:12:40] moments. They learn that they can trust, that they can rely on other people, and because [00:12:45] somebody's attuned to them, they learn healthy co-regulation. Mm. And throughout their [00:12:50] childhood, they often see other healthy foundational principles like healthy communication.
[00:12:54] Thais Gibson, PhD: They [00:12:55] learn that my needs are, are, you know, worthy of being met, and I can express them. They learn [00:13:00] healthy boundaries, and so as adults, securely attached individuals go in with a [00:13:05] tremendous amount of adaptive behaviors. They go in with all these really healthy adaptive coping [00:13:10] mechanisms to do relationships, hence why they're a lot more successful at them.
[00:13:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: Then we have three [00:13:15] insecurely attached styles, and they make up roughly the other 50%. And you can kind of imagine [00:13:20] them as existing along a continuum. At one end of the continuum, and everybody will [00:13:25] know somebody in their life who's like this if it's not them, is the anxious attachment style. [00:13:30] Now, anxiously attached individuals, a lot of their wiring or conditioning from childhood [00:13:35] is that they either have real or perceived abandonment Real [00:13:40] abandonment's obvious.
[00:13:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: You have a parent who, you know, you grow up in a fatherless home, a parent leaves at a young [00:13:45] age, um, or God forbid, somebody loses a parent, they pass away. That would obviously [00:13:50] create massive abandonment wounds for somebody. Perceived abandonment is really interesting because when [00:13:55] you look at small T trauma over time, if it's repeated and consistent enough, it actually has a similar [00:14:00] output as a singular big T trauma because of the firing and wiring of those neural networks [00:14:05] across time.
[00:14:05] Thais Gibson, PhD: So perceived abandonment looks like, for example, you have parents who are very [00:14:10] loving, but they're constantly working, and so you're always with the grandparents. And so a child learns, okay, love [00:14:15] is there, and then love is taken away, and then love is there, and then love is taken away.
[00:14:19] Dr. Taz: Oh, boy. [00:14:20]
[00:14:20] Thais Gibson, PhD: And I'm very afraid of that love being taken away, and so they're always [00:14:25] worried and sort of reading between the lines, waiting for this abandonment to happen.
[00:14:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: So now we have these [00:14:30] individuals who learn love is a good thing, but it's inconsistent, and I have to hold onto it. [00:14:35] And basically as adults, they become individuals who are trying to always maintain proximity. [00:14:40] And their biggest fears that they acquire because of their childhood are the fear of being [00:14:45] abandoned, alone, excluded, disliked, rejected, unloved.
[00:14:48] Thais Gibson, PhD: These are these huge [00:14:50] wounds that they acquire.
[00:14:51] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:14:51] Thais Gibson, PhD: And what's really interesting is I always give people this [00:14:55] analogy that our wounds are kind of like a bear in the woods. If you were to go into the woods tomorrow and you [00:15:00] see a bear and you run and you're safe, thank goodness, but then you have to go back into the woods the next [00:15:05] day, well, what does our mind do?
[00:15:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: Our mind, the moment the trees move, you're like, "The bear." [00:15:10] We're bracing for the bear. So when our brain gets imprinted with these fears in [00:15:15] childhood, as an adult, we project them onto everything, just like we [00:15:20] would a bear in the woods, or, or we have a negativity bias. We're wired to hang on to negative things more than positive [00:15:25] to protect ourselves from them.
[00:15:26] Thais Gibson, PhD: And then our subconscious mind is sort of the lens we see and interact with the world [00:15:30] through. So if you believe that, you know, you felt abandoned in, in childhood, as an [00:15:35] adult, these individuals are constantly waiting for somebody to abandon them. And if somebody doesn't call them back- Of course, [00:15:40] yeah.
[00:15:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah ... text them enough or any of these things, they project that. And as a result- [00:15:45] Their thought patterns follow, their emotions follow. And neuroscience has actually proven every action we [00:15:50] take is based on our emotional state. So even people who think they're really ri- lo- uh, logical, [00:15:55] rational thinkers, they're just making emotionally based decisions at the tipping point and then rationalizing [00:16:00] through logic.
[00:16:00] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:16:01] Thais Gibson, PhD: So what happens is somebody has this imprint from childhood of fearing [00:16:05] being abandoned or disliked or excluded, all these very, like, you know, social fears, [00:16:10] and that forms a lot of their conditioning in their subconscious. They're seeing their whole int- [00:16:15] external world through this lens, and then the moment they don't get a call back or the moment that [00:16:20] somebody, you know, isn't texting them enough or didn't immediately ask them on another date, or is a little, you [00:16:25] know, maybe in a long-term marriage is a little bit tired and, and they're a little bit
[00:16:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: you're acting a little bit [00:16:30] differently today- Yeah ... they begin to jump to those conclusions. It dysregulates all their [00:16:35] emotions and their nervous system as a result, and now they're playing out these patterns, and their behaviors follow. [00:16:40] And so they'll usually be individuals who cling a lot. They try to move very fast in relationships.
[00:16:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: They hold on [00:16:45] tight, and in doing so, they often accidentally don't see people's [00:16:50] boundaries and don't recognize that they're there, and they can accidentally pressure people in relationships and make them sort of [00:16:55] pull away, if anything. Mm. And
[00:16:57] Dr. Taz: that's- Okay, and that's anxiety. That's, like, anxiety [00:17:00] attachment.
[00:17:01] Dr. Taz: Anxious attachment is what we call that. Anxious attachment. Okay. Got it. All right.
[00:17:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: And you ... Have you [00:17:05] seen people like that in your practice? Absolutely.
[00:17:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. For [00:17:10] sure.
[00:17:10] Thais Gibson, PhD: So very, very common. So- Yeah ... so,
[00:17:12] Dr. Taz: um, do you want me to go into the, the next one? Yeah, let's- Yeah ... I'm ... [00:17:15] Well, here's where I'm going with this.
[00:17:16] Dr. Taz: Like, I would love for anyone watching or listening to pay [00:17:20] attention and see if you know somebody who's in one of these attachment [00:17:25] st- styles, because I, I think that Thais and I will eventually get to [00:17:30] how do we retrain some of this, but the first part is recognizing yourself. So which [00:17:35] attachment style, you know, are you?
[00:17:37] Dr. Taz: So we've got ... What did y- I'm sorry, what did [00:17:40] you call the first one? The first one was ...
[00:17:42] Thais Gibson, PhD: The securely attached individual. Securely
[00:17:43] Dr. Taz: attached, which is about [00:17:45] 50% of the population, and those usually do better in [00:17:50] relationships. Then we have the anxious attachment style. And what's the next one?
[00:17:54] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:17:55] For a third one, in many ways it's kind of the opposite of the anxious.
[00:17:57] Thais Gibson, PhD: Okay. So they're called dismissive avoidant. [00:18:00] Now, dismissive avoidant attachment styles, they grow up with their [00:18:05] overarching theme as childhood emotional neglect.
[00:18:08] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:18:08] Thais Gibson, PhD: While people hear this and they [00:18:10] think of, like, oh, this overt thing where parents are never home, a lot of times it's just [00:18:15] very covert. It's that children grow up in an environment where their emotions are not attuned [00:18:20] to, and if anything, they're diminished, deflected, or shamed.
[00:18:23] Thais Gibson, PhD: And think some of the really typical [00:18:25] things we'd see in the world, like, you know, a young boy growing up in an environment and they're ... and he, he cries or he's [00:18:30] upset and the parents say, "Oh my God, don't be a crybaby," and give him a hard time or maybe even [00:18:35] punish him for crying. These types of themes, when they're really predominant across [00:18:40] childhood- Cause a child who in their earlier stages of behavioral development [00:18:45] are actually wired for attunement, they literally need to be attuned to-
[00:18:48] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:18:49] Thais Gibson, PhD: That were biologically [00:18:50] wired for that. And when that is con- consistently not there, a child [00:18:55] in their behavioral stages of development, they personalize everything, especially at a young age. They, they don't know how to sit there [00:19:00] and logically think through yet, "Oh, my parents are emotionally unavailable to me."
[00:19:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: They instead say, "There [00:19:05] must be something wrong with me that this is happening." So what [00:19:10] this creates for more avoidant, dismissive avoidant individuals is they go, "Oh, [00:19:15] well, I am shameful or defective, and if I'm vulnerable, that's weak." And they often feel [00:19:20] trapped in an environment with their parents where they can't actually get their needs met.
[00:19:24] Thais Gibson, PhD: So now we [00:19:25] have these individuals who grew up in their biggest core wounds, their version of the bear in the woods that they project onto [00:19:30] everything, and that lens that they see the world through is these big fears of being trapped, [00:19:35] helpless, uh, defective, being seen as defective or shameful or weak, especially if [00:19:40] they're vulnerable and open.
[00:19:41] Thais Gibson, PhD: And they very much feel unsafe in conflict in [00:19:45] relationships, and they tend to pull away and just shut everybody out. So dismissive avoidants [00:19:50] as adults, they often go through this really interesting dynamic where they'll start off dating somebody, getting to [00:19:55] know somebody, and then as soon as things get too real or too vulnerable, in other words, when they actually start to [00:20:00] attach, usually a few months in, their entire nervous system reacts.
[00:20:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: All their wounds come up. [00:20:05] Like what- Mm-hmm ... is vulnerability? Oh, it makes me weak, defective. I get trapped here. And so they're [00:20:10] often individuals who push away. Mm-hmm. They cut and run from things that are real. They're fearing [00:20:15] commitment. They'll shut down. They'll stonewall. And even if they do end up in long-term relationships, [00:20:20] they often won't be vulnerable.
[00:20:21] Thais Gibson, PhD: Once things are really connected, they kinda take a big step back. [00:20:25] And what's really interesting is they don't really know how to communicate their needs. [00:20:30] They don't really know how to co-regulate, and so they're constantly trying to create distance- Mm ... to kind of [00:20:35] adapt to themselves. And so dismissive avoidants go through these cycles in relationship where they seem [00:20:40] to be there at the beginning, the very early stages, and then they retreat.
[00:20:42] Thais Gibson, PhD: They're kind of like a turtle always going into their [00:20:45] shell, and people are left feeling like, "What did I do? Was it my fault? What's going on [00:20:50] here?" Yeah. This relationship and connection itself triggers all of their deepest fears. [00:20:55]
[00:20:55] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this and thinking, "I know something is off in [00:21:00] my body, but I don't know where to start- This is for you.
[00:21:04] Dr. Taz: That's [00:21:05] why I created the Circle. The Circle is my private community where I and my team focus [00:21:10] on understanding your body from hormones and stress to metabolic health and [00:21:15] longevity with real-life guidance that you can actually use. This is about [00:21:20] clarity and consistency and support beyond the exam room, and maybe [00:21:25] outside of all the different appointments and experts that you've been running around to.
[00:21:29] Dr. Taz: You can [00:21:30] try the Circle with a one-month trial using the promo code PODCAST at [00:21:35] wholeplus.co/circle. Again, that's Whole Plus, [00:21:40] wholeplus.co/circle. All right, let's jump back into the [00:21:45] episode. Is that like ghosting, basically? Like- ... you hear about ghosting all the time [00:21:50] now. Like, people just disappear. Or wait, what was the other one?
[00:21:53] Dr. Taz: Love bombing. That was the other one, where [00:21:55] someone will come in and, like, love bomb someone and then just disappear. Are those, like, the dismissive avoidants? [00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Thais Gibson, PhD: The most likely to ghost for sure are gonna be dismissive avoidants because- Okay ... [00:22:05] they tend to leave without explanation.
[00:22:07] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:22:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: And they don't like to explain 'cause they don't know how to [00:22:10] navigate conflict.
[00:22:10] Thais Gibson, PhD: They never got any modeling for healthy- Yeah ... communication. So they just feel, "Oh my gosh, I don't like this [00:22:15] person anymore," or, "I feel, you know, the, these not so great feelings inside of me." Often [00:22:20] they'll blame the other person and even flaw find, um, as a way to keep control subconsciously. [00:22:25] Subconsciously to being in control, to know that, "Oh look, all these flaws, I could be fine without this person.
[00:22:28] Thais Gibson, PhD: I don't really need [00:22:30] them." Right. They're scared to have to rely on somebody, 'cause their entire personality and coping from a [00:22:35] conditioning perspective became to become hyper independent. And so they'll be the most likely to ghost, for sure. [00:22:40] Um, you'll see more anxious leaning individuals be a little more likely to love bomb 'cause they come on strong and they wanna move [00:22:45] really fast.
[00:22:45] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. Whereas dismissive avoidants are always pumping the brakes. And the really interesting thing [00:22:50] before we get to the last attachment style is that, um, our subconscious [00:22:55] mind is trying to maintain its comfort zone. Okay? It, your subconscious mind [00:23:00] equates familiarity to safety and thus survival. Yeah.
[00:23:02] Thais Gibson, PhD: Part of why we feel this, like, sort of natural aversion to [00:23:05] change a lot. And so the irony of all of this is that what's [00:23:10] most familiar to us is actually the way we treat ourselves. So if you look at [00:23:15] an anxious partner, how do they treat themselves? Well, they're so busy people pleasing that they dismiss and [00:23:20] avoid themselves.
[00:23:21] Thais Gibson, PhD: They don't like spending time alone. They put their feelings on the back burner 'cause they're people [00:23:25] pleasing all the time. So they are often most attracted to people who are dismissive avoidant, [00:23:30] and so they often choose the avoidant partner. The dismissive avoidant, they're always trying to [00:23:35] keep time to themselves, and create space from people, and, and be independent, and have their own control.
[00:23:39] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so what's [00:23:40] so interesting is they're very drawn to people who are also quite clingy to them because [00:23:45] it's their subconscious comfort zone of familiarity. So we have these kind of, you know, patterns playing out at a [00:23:50] subconscious level, and people get really frustrated, and we often will consciously say, [00:23:55] "I want the available person," or, "I want the person who respects my boundaries."
[00:23:59] Thais Gibson, PhD: But at the, [00:24:00] at the end of the day, until we actually rewire and clean up the patterns happening subconsciously, we're gonna [00:24:05] keep choosing the same people in a different body because we're choosing from that place [00:24:10] of familiarity. And again, the conscious mind can't outwill the subconscious mind.
[00:24:13] Dr. Taz: Oh, so interesting.
[00:24:14] Dr. Taz: Okay, [00:24:15] so what's the fourth one? What's the fourth attachment style?
[00:24:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: So the fourth one is the fearful avoidant [00:24:20] attachment style. Now they get really interesting- Okay ... conditioning. So the fearful avoidant, [00:24:25] they have both an anxious and an avoidant side to them. Okay? So fearful avoidants grow [00:24:30] up with more big T trauma in the way that we sort of his- historically think of it.
[00:24:34] Thais Gibson, PhD: Big [00:24:35] T trauma being that usually they get experiences where love some days is a good thing, and other [00:24:40] days is a terrifying thing. So some really common examples would include things like mom is an [00:24:45] alcoholic. One day Mom's had a few drinks. She's warm and fuzzy. She's in a good mood. She's trying to get [00:24:50] close to you.
[00:24:50] Thais Gibson, PhD: She's giving you a hug and a pat on the head, and you're like, "Oh, love and connection is good." [00:24:55] Other days, Mom has had way too much to drink, and she's angry drunk. Mm. [00:25:00] And now she's mean and cruel and really unpredictable. You know, let's say another example could be having [00:25:05] a parent who has narcissistic personality disorder or some sort of pathological issue that they're dealing with, where one day they [00:25:10] love bomb you or they're really nice, another day they're mean and harsh and very critical.
[00:25:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: In all of these types [00:25:15] of themes, whether it's tons of fighting in the home growing up, parents in active addiction, [00:25:20] different pathologies that cause parents to be highly unpredictable, a child is getting [00:25:25] the conditioning that says, "Well, you never know what you're gonna get."
[00:25:29] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:25:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: You [00:25:30] get the good version or the not so good version.
[00:25:32] Thais Gibson, PhD: And what that means is that the anxious attachment [00:25:35] style, they have an attachment strategy. Theirs is like, "Let me always try to maintain proximity, 'cause love is good. I just don't [00:25:40] get enough of it." The dismissive avoidant has an attachment strategy. They say, "I always need to create distance, [00:25:45] 'cause love doesn't really do a lot for me.
[00:25:46] Thais Gibson, PhD: I kinda want it, but, like, I'm better off being in control and retaining my freedom, [00:25:50] 'cause my needs don't really get met here." Fearful avoidants grow up going- [00:25:55] I need to learn how to be hypervigilant. I need to learn to read between the lines and always be on high alert. [00:26:00] And so fearful avoidants, I joke, are like the human lie detectors.
[00:26:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: They-
[00:26:03] Dr. Taz: Hmm ...
[00:26:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: they notice every [00:26:05] change in microexpression, in body language, in tone of voice, and they are hyper attuned to other people and [00:26:10] their environments. But they have a lot of wounds. They have a lot of their, their attachment wounds. They have [00:26:15] some of the anxious and the avoidant, so they have a huge fear of being abandoned.
[00:26:18] Thais Gibson, PhD: They also have fears of being trapped or controlled or [00:26:20] powerless. And their other wounds, or versions of the bear in the woods, are huge [00:26:25] fears of being betrayed, 'cause they're always waiting for the other shoe to drop and they're always on high alert. And [00:26:30] they have this big unworthiness wound, where they always have to
[00:26:32] Thais Gibson, PhD: They usually earned love, um, [00:26:35] as children through caretaking or doing things for other people. Mm. You know, when their mom was [00:26:40] drinking and then somebody, you know, puts mom, tucks her into bed and gives her water, and then gets, you know, love [00:26:45] and care for doing that. So they usually become hyper attuned to other people, but are [00:26:50] always on this high alert.
[00:26:51] Thais Gibson, PhD: I had a, a client back in the day when I ran my practice and she said, [00:26:55] "I could tell by the way my mother closed the door when she got home from work if I had to run [00:27:00] to close my bedroom door too or if it was safe to leave it open."
[00:27:02] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:27:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: So they notice all of these little [00:27:05] things and it, it's quite common for people.
[00:27:06] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so fearful avoidants as adults end up being [00:27:10] individuals who they want love, and they're like, "Come get close, come get close," but they're also scared of it. So as soon as you get [00:27:15] too close, they're like, "Wait, get back. You're too close." Yeah.
[00:27:17] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:27:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: And then the and then the person's gotten [00:27:20] back, and then you're like, "Wait, why are you leaving?
[00:27:22] Thais Gibson, PhD: Come back." And, and so they, they sort of are hot [00:27:25] and cold. They pinball back and forth. And of course, they, they make for more [00:27:30] volatile partners in relationships. They're kind of a rollercoaster. You never know where they're coming or going. And as I [00:27:35] mentioned, you know, this is actually my attachment style, and, uh, part of why I got into the work that, that I do [00:27:40] and, um, you know, being able to change and rewire it is extremely helpful and [00:27:45] has been enormous for me on my own, uh, personal growth and, and, uh, healing journey.
[00:27:49] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:27:50] And so that's sort of what led me to then moving into private practice and then eventually putting our, our online [00:27:55] programs together. And, uh, I think at this point we've had about 70,000 people come through and, [00:28:00] and take our programs and go through the whole healing journey of how you actually rewire.
[00:28:03] Dr. Taz: Ah, [00:28:05] fascinating stuff. Yeah. So I also grew up in a slightly dysfunctional home with a lot [00:28:10] of, like, lack of, what's the right word, [00:28:15] stability in terms of emotions probably. A lot of emotional instability. So I think I'm the [00:28:20] fearful avoidant as well. What was the ... Like, well, let me ask this [00:28:25] question first. Is there a quick and easy way for someone to [00:28:30] identify their attachment style?
[00:28:31] Dr. Taz: Like I, we heard the explanation, but is there like [00:28:35] a, a tool that they could use if they're not clear maybe which one of these they're falling into? [00:28:40]
[00:28:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: Absolutely. So we have an assessment that we, we take people through. Awesome. Okay. We can put it in the link below, but we, it's a [00:28:45] 28-question assessment people can go through, and it makes it super obvious which your attachment style is, [00:28:50] and it'll tell you your wounds, and your needs, and a lot of the different pillars that are required for healing.
[00:28:54] Dr. Taz: [00:28:55] Awesome. Definitely link that. I know a lot of people listening are gonna be like, "Wait, I wanna, I wanna be sure I know which one I [00:29:00] am." And then the follow-up question to that is, so the pairings, 'cause you mentioned it a little bit with the [00:29:05] anxious and the dismissive avoidant. What are some of the most common pairings [00:29:10] that are happening in relationships, and is there a pairing [00:29:15] that maybe has a higher divorce rate than others, out of [00:29:20] curiosity?
[00:29:21] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. So obviously the first one is securely attached people often end up with other [00:29:25] securely attached people, because they both have a sub- a subconscious comfort zone of [00:29:30] open communication, and co-regulation, and a healthy approach to things. And so, um, they're most [00:29:35] likely to be paired off together. Um, and then when we look at the others, um, anxious [00:29:40] and avoidants, y- you hardly ever date your attachment style if you're at either end of the continuum.
[00:29:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: It's almost [00:29:45] like the same side of a m- th- a magnet. They're gonna repulse each other, so you're not gonna see two dismissive avoidants together, [00:29:50] because nobody really is vulnerable enough to build momentum in the relationship.
[00:29:53] Dr. Taz: Mm. And
[00:29:53] Thais Gibson, PhD: you're not gonna see two [00:29:55] anxiously attached people together, 'cause they both people please each other and they're both seeking more of that mystery and the [00:30:00] avoidance.
[00:30:00] Thais Gibson, PhD: So, so we'll often see anxious and dismissives end up together.
[00:30:04] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:30:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:30:05] Fearful avoidance can either end up with other fearful avoidance, or if they tend to lean into one [00:30:10] side of their attachment style, they'll usually choose the opposite. So for example, if somebody's fearful [00:30:15] avoidant but they lean more into always trying to earn their worth and people please, they're dismissing [00:30:20] themselves a little more, so they'll tend to end up with somebody more avoidant, um, other dismissive [00:30:25] avoidants.
[00:30:25] Thais Gibson, PhD: And sometimes fearful avoidants report feeling like [00:30:30] dismissive avoidants kept them on their toes enough where they were uncertain, and it's that sort of subconscious comfort zone of [00:30:35] chaos. Um, but that they felt [00:30:40] like dismissive avoidants, um, were safe, because at least they're not volatile [00:30:45] and- Mm ... really unpredictable, which is often what people are trying to run away from.
[00:30:48] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. Um, so with this [00:30:50] interesting kind of dynamic there. But then i- if a fearful avoidant is much more avoidant leaning, and they need [00:30:55] way more space, and they're much more independent and introverted, then they may be more likely to be [00:31:00] with somebody who's anxious and always pushing for connection and initiating things.
[00:31:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, so [00:31:05] th- because it's on that continuum, you'll usually see people move to sort of compensate for [00:31:10] whatever area that they're leaning into along that continuum.
[00:31:12] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh. And so when you do an assessment, do [00:31:15] both people in the relationship do the assessment to understand, like, their- They're [00:31:20] like, I guess what do you, what do you call it?
[00:31:21] Dr. Taz: They're blind spots and they're triggers and, and that type of thing? [00:31:25]
[00:31:25] Thais Gibson, PhD: Absolutely. And you can see like clockwork, it's actually wild [00:31:30] how much you'll run into the same predictable road bumps in the relationships, the same types of [00:31:35] cycles, the same types of triggers, the same specific types of arguments. And like, [00:31:40] you know, I teach this stuff a lot in, in our platform, and people will be like, "How do you..."
[00:31:43] Thais Gibson, PhD: The people joke, like in the chat- Yeah ... [00:31:45] and the webinar is like, "How do you know this about me? Like, are you stalking me?" Right. 'Cause it's just so predictable [00:31:50] for people. Wow. Like, the same types of cycles. And it's good news because it means that once you identify them, it's very [00:31:55] easy to actually start the rewiring process.
[00:31:57] Dr. Taz: And is there one of those three pairings, we know [00:32:00] the securely attached are okay, but is there one of those three pairings that do have a [00:32:05] higher divorce rate or more volatility than the others? G-
[00:32:09] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:32:10] question. So the most volatility in those pairings is two fearful avoidants together- Mm ... 'cause they both have chaos.
[00:32:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:32:15] They usually bond quick and deeply. Fearful avoidants are very interesting. They're extremely deep people. [00:32:20] They're not very superficial. They don't like small talk. They don't like surface things. Yeah. They try to get really deep really [00:32:25] fast. But it's almost like two sides of the same coin where there's this tremendous amount of depth, but [00:32:30] fearful avoidants often feel the need to push people away 'cause they feel threatened.
[00:32:32] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm. So, you know, it's not necessarily a super [00:32:35] conscious process where they're like, "Oh, I feel threatened." But they'll feel a lot like y- y- you [00:32:40] can sort of imagine because they have both sides in there, they have multiple core wounds from each side, [00:32:45] that it's just more mines in the minefield, so they'll feel triggered more easily and they'll flip-flop back and [00:32:50] forth a little bit more frequently.
[00:32:51] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, so when you get two of those together, they can be highly [00:32:55] passionate. They can be... Usually they're very, um, a lot of times they're very high achieving people, [00:33:00] um, and put a lot of pressure on themselves and take on a lot from, from other people. [00:33:05] But, um, um, but two of them together, it can just be a little bit more tricky for sure.[00:33:10]
[00:33:10] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, anxious and dismissive avoidants, they tend to burn up a little bit earlier, so they actually have the, the [00:33:15] least succe- the lowest success rate in terms of relationship longevity because they quickly don't [00:33:20] understand each other. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, often what we're most attracted to in the [00:33:25] early stage of relationship is the thing that we resent the most later on.
[00:33:27] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm. For example, [00:33:30] if anybody's ever been in the situation where they're very Type A and they're like, "Oh my gosh, this person I met, they're just so [00:33:35] easygoing," and you love that or initially. It's a trait variety thing. We're wired to, [00:33:40] um- Right ... from a biological perspective to be attracted to people that are different than us.
[00:33:43] Thais Gibson, PhD: Right. If somebody smart and someone [00:33:45] strong pairs up together- Right ... when they're trying to survive in the wild, they have a better chance, right? So, so we like it [00:33:50] early, but then unless we learn how to work with it and actually integrate some of that into balance, we resent it [00:33:55] later. So we'll be like, "They're so easygoing," and then, you know, a year and a half in you're like, "They never make plans.
[00:33:59] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:34:00] They're driving me nuts," right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or you'll be like, "Oh my gosh, they're so assertive. That's so attractive," and [00:34:05] then, you know, a year and a half in you're like, "They never compromise."
[00:34:08] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:34:09] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. [00:34:10] Like we resent later, but there's, there's ways around that obviously. Um, but the last thing that I'll just [00:34:15] say to that question is that, um- When I worked in practice, when I work in our [00:34:20] programs, the number one thing I care about is not how intense somebody's [00:34:25] attachment style is, how much trauma they had, what their attachment style pairing is.
[00:34:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: I honestly fe- [00:34:30] find all of that to be quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The number one [00:34:35] thing that's the biggest predicting factor is, are both people willing to do the work?
[00:34:38] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:34:38] Thais Gibson, PhD: One person who's [00:34:40] highly engaged and wants to, and the other person's like, "I'm not even gonna look at my own patterns and themes," then it's just not [00:34:45] fair, and it's gonna make for a lot of resentment in a relationship.
[00:34:47] Thais Gibson, PhD: But if you have both people willing to take the simple steps to [00:34:50] rewire and to change and to communicate differently and to know their needs and share them with each other, [00:34:55] um, then the needle moves in a, in a really big way.
[00:34:57] Dr. Taz: So let's talk about the work. I think that's a good segue. [00:35:00] So, you know, if you can start to identify the attachment style [00:35:05] that maybe you personally resonate with or that is in your relationship currently, [00:35:10] and you're like, "Okay, I can recognize this, and I'm willing to step into this [00:35:15] process of rewiring my subconscious," oh my gosh, just me even [00:35:20] saying it, like, what does that look like?
[00:35:21] Dr. Taz: Like, what, what is that? Is that, like, a one-year [00:35:25] journey? Is that, like, you know, you need to make time after work? Like, [00:35:30] you know, what does, what does that look like? Where do you start with all of that? Okay,
[00:35:33] Thais Gibson, PhD: so [00:35:35] 90 days of rewiring goes a very long way, okay? So I take people through, like, a 90-day boot camp.
[00:35:39] Thais Gibson, PhD: And- Okay ... [00:35:40] and it does require daily repeated activities, but there are five pillars that we cover. Okay. And some [00:35:45] of them overlap in their timing, okay? So I think people hear, like, rewiring [00:35:50] and changing our conditioning, and they get intimidated, but I think it's just because there's not enough good tools of people understanding it.
[00:35:54] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:35:55] It's not very difficult. Yeah. So we have five pillars: rewiring your core wounds, we'll talk about each [00:36:00] one in detail, learning your needs, regulating your nervous system. These are very, like, the inward [00:36:05] pillars. And then we have the outward relational pillars, the interpersonal pillars, which are learning to communicate your needs in [00:36:10] healthy ways, because a lot of insecurely attached people communicate in quite dysfunctional ways [00:36:15] until they know.
[00:36:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, and the last one is learning healthy boundaries. Mm. And [00:36:20] none of these things can be intellectualized. It can't be, "Oh, I know that I should have boundaries in XYZ place." Right. It's [00:36:25] meant to be conditioned in because as somebody who, you know, at one point in my [00:36:30] own journey struggled with boundaries until I would get frustrated enough, and then I'd set them from a place of anger, [00:36:35] um, you know- You can know that it's time to set a boundary, but if your subconscious [00:36:40] mind believes that, you know, boundaries equal punishment because you got punished for having boundaries as a [00:36:45] child, then your subconscious will block you, and our conscious mind will say, "Set the boundary," and our subconscious will have a wound that [00:36:50] blocks us, and so it's like putting the gas and the brakes at the same time.
[00:36:52] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:36:53] Thais Gibson, PhD: And none of this [00:36:55] process is an intellectualized process. This is very much a rewired process. So we [00:37:00] can start with pillar number one- Okay ... which is rewiring your core wounds. So we talked about them by attachment style, [00:37:05] the anxious big fears that are there, bear in the woods, right? Or the fear of being abandoned, alone, [00:37:10] disliked, excluded, rejected, unloved.
[00:37:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, and the dismissive avoidants, [00:37:15] theirs are being trapped, helpless, powerless, unsafe, in a conflict, but the really big ones are [00:37:20] weak if they're vulnerable, um, and defective or shameful because of that childhood emotional [00:37:25] neglect. And the fearful avoidant, they have both sides, and a couple of their own. So they have the abandoned is a [00:37:30] big one.
[00:37:30] Thais Gibson, PhD: They have a big alone core wound, and it's not the fear of being alone, 'cause they do quite well on their [00:37:35] own. It is the fear that they're always gonna be left [00:37:40] alone at the end of the day holding the bag. Mm. Like, all the stuff's gonna spill onto them. They always have to be the [00:37:45] caretaker, the performer, the fixer.
[00:37:47] Thais Gibson, PhD: It's gonna fall on them, and it's up to them alone to [00:37:50] carry, so that's a big one for fearful avoidants. Um, then the fear of being trapped is big. They don't like [00:37:55] being in control. They tend to be quite independent. The fear of being helpless if they rely on people too much, [00:38:00] um, and a big fear of being betrayed-
[00:38:03] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm
[00:38:03] Dr. Taz: they're
[00:38:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: waiting for the other shoe to [00:38:05] drop, and unworthy. So this big, like, I have to super excel just to [00:38:10] be worthy of love at all. Um, so we have a lot of those wounds. So step one, identify your [00:38:15] wounds. Then we have a three-step, um, system for re- rewiring them, and you can actually do multiple wounds at [00:38:20] the same time.
[00:38:20] Thais Gibson, PhD: Ideally not more than two or three at, at once, 'cause you have to be able to be very present during [00:38:25] this process. But, um, three steps. Step one, find your wound and its [00:38:30] opposite. Okay? So let's just say, for example, that it's, um, I will be [00:38:35] abandoned. What's the opposite? I will retain connection. I'm worthy of connection.[00:38:40]
[00:38:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: I do not believe in affirmations at all.
[00:38:43] Dr. Taz: Interesting. [00:38:45] I'll tell you why. So affirmations don't work?
[00:38:47] Thais Gibson, PhD: No. No. Um, I'll tell you why. [00:38:50] Affirmations are the conscious mind speaking to the conscious mind, okay? Your conscious mind speaks [00:38:55] language. If I say to you, "Okay, Dr. Taz, whatever you do, do not think of a pink elephant," [00:39:00] y- you, you hear do not, but you probably flashed a pink elephant, right?
[00:39:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. [00:39:05] And, and so your conscious mind heard do not, but it was too late. Your subconscious flashed a, a pink [00:39:10] elephant. Your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and images. It doesn't hear or, or [00:39:15] recognize language in the same way at all. And so when we use affirmations, [00:39:20] we're using our conscious mind to just reach our conscious mind.
[00:39:22] Thais Gibson, PhD: Nobody has core wounds [00:39:25] at a conscious level of mind. Nobody wakes up and says, "Today, I'm gonna tell [00:39:30] myself 47 times that I'm gonna be abandoned by everybody I love." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No one does, right? These are [00:39:35] preconditioned, imprinted programs at a subconscious level because of childhood events that were repeated enough that they [00:39:40] built these neural structures in our brain.
[00:39:42] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so if we're gonna change, step [00:39:45] one, you find the core wound and its opposite. Step two, we have to speak the language of the subconscious [00:39:50] mind, which is emotions and imagery. So how do we do that? Well, [00:39:55] every single memory we ever have is just a container of emotions and images. [00:40:00] So if somebody says, "Okay, tell me your favorite childhood memory," and you [00:40:05] see the images in your childhood memory of you playing at the beach, you might see the images of the, the [00:40:10] sand, and the ocean, and the red sand bucket that you're making a sandcastle with, [00:40:15] and you might see the images of your, your family members or siblings.
[00:40:19] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:40:20] And we've all seen people when they recall old memories, um, where they [00:40:25] laugh, or if it's a sad memory, they cry, right? And so memories contain emotions. So [00:40:30] we can leverage, and this is where we get into the firing and wiring part, the actual building of these neural networks part. [00:40:35] We can leverage 10 memories of times to support the new idea.[00:40:40]
[00:40:40] Thais Gibson, PhD: So, for example, 10 times that you had connection in your relationships instead of [00:40:45] abandonment. Mm-hmm. Or 10 times you were good enough instead of not good enough. Now it's real. It's [00:40:50] evidence-based. It's actually landing at a subconscious level. It's bringing up the emotions, the images, okay? [00:40:55] And we wanna really feel it in our body.
[00:40:57] Thais Gibson, PhD: And then step three is we record [00:41:00] ourselves saying them out loud, like ideally recording them into your phone or a device you can listen back, and [00:41:05] we listen back for 21 days in a suggestible state. So [00:41:10] traditional behavioral reprogramming seems to take about 63 days. When you're in a state of [00:41:15] suggestibility, meaning when your brain is producing more alpha and theta brainwaves- Okay?
[00:41:19] Thais Gibson, PhD: We're more [00:41:20] suggestible, and it quickens the process. And when we lace a lot of [00:41:25] emotions and images in there, it really speaks and imprints our subconscious mind. And we've seen people, for [00:41:30] example, who, you know, God forbid, but, like, you know, somebody says, "Oh, [00:41:35] reprogramming, it has to take 63 days." S- you see somebody who got into a car accident [00:41:40] yesterday, and the day before- Yeah
[00:41:41] Thais Gibson, PhD: they were totally fine getting in a car, and because of how intensely emotional that [00:41:45] one car accident experience was, they get back in the car after it happens and their hands shake, right? So [00:41:50] emotion imprints us very deeply. And so 21 days, you may not even need a full 21 days, but we tell [00:41:55] people stick to it.
[00:41:55] Thais Gibson, PhD: So now we have this, this cycle, okay? You got your core wound and its opposite, "I am not good [00:42:00] enough, I am good enough," for example. 10 pieces of evidence of times you did feel good enough. You were a good [00:42:05] friend three days ago when you had that hard conversation. You were a good boss when this thing happened at work.[00:42:10]
[00:42:10] Thais Gibson, PhD: You showed up for somebody- So this could be present
[00:42:11] Dr. Taz: day, present day things too. It doesn't have to go [00:42:15] back to your childhood memory or anything like that.
[00:42:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: Exactly. Okay. It's even more effective if it's more [00:42:20] present.
[00:42:20] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:42:21] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, 'cause they're things we can relate to and feel about. And the more [00:42:25] specific we get, the better, because it elicits more emotion and, and imagery.
[00:42:28] Thais Gibson, PhD: So if you say [00:42:30] somebody's working on, "I am unloved," and they say, "My son loves me, my daughter loves me, my mom loves me," [00:42:35] you wanna be like, the really specific images and emotions. So, "I know my daughter loves me [00:42:40] because when I was away for three days and came back, I saw her run to the door and I saw that [00:42:45] smile on her face, and she put her arms out" And you feel the emotion and you see the images, and now it's really [00:42:50] imprinting at a subconscious level, okay?
[00:42:52] Thais Gibson, PhD: So once we have those 10 pieces of, of [00:42:55] memories there, you record yourself saying them out loud, you listen back for 21 days. [00:43:00] We are most suggestible in the first hour that we wake up- Mm ... or the last hour before we [00:43:05] go to bed because our brain's producing more alpha and theta brainwaves. And so now we can soak up [00:43:10] and sponge up this conditioning much like our operating state in childhood.
[00:43:13] Thais Gibson, PhD: And it takes two to five [00:43:15] minutes a day. Okay. And listening back for... That's it. Yeah. You listen back and feel about it, you [00:43:20] visualize about it, and we got people to actually rank a satisfaction score, like an NPS score, with this [00:43:25] exercise. Now, w- we got people to answer. We took the data from the people who said that they stuck to [00:43:30] it for the full 21 days.
[00:43:31] Thais Gibson, PhD: They were present. They weren't distracted. They did it in a suggestible state. "Okay, [00:43:35] what was your response to this exercise?" And people ranked a 99.7% NPS score [00:43:40] at having the actual core wounds no longer being a part of their life and their experience in the same [00:43:45] way. And so it's very powerful. It doesn't take long.
[00:43:48] Thais Gibson, PhD: It's one of many different [00:43:50] rewiring exercises, but it's really leveraging the neuroscience of how we build neural networks and how we actually [00:43:55] change.
[00:43:55] Dr. Taz: Oh, so fascinating. Now, what if you can't do that hour in the [00:44:00] morning or the hour at night, but you put yourself in a theta state by, I don't know, what you think about, like listening to [00:44:05] theta beats and doing some of that stuff.
[00:44:07] Dr. Taz: Does that count?
[00:44:08] Thais Gibson, PhD: Great question. So yeah, if in the [00:44:10] first hour before bed or, or the first hour you wake up or last hour before bed, you're busy, [00:44:15] uh, then, um, to be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of binaural beats and things like that. Mm-hmm. I just don't know [00:44:20] how predictable they really are, especially 'cause, like the level of hertz people listen [00:44:25] to, um, also affects our brain wave states, and that's something we don't have control over.
[00:44:29] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, [00:44:30] but, um, what is interesting is there's a lot of other ways to achieve being in that [00:44:35] alpha brain wave state. After intense exercise, especially like high-intensity interval training, when you [00:44:40] take a break and your mind is very still 'cause you're tired, you're usually in an alpha brain wave [00:44:45] state. Um, when you finish meditation or breathwork, we're highly likely to [00:44:50] be in an alpha brain wave state, especially if we meditated or did breathwork for over 10 minutes.
[00:44:54] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:44:55] Um, and interestingly, people are actually in quite a, an [00:45:00] intense alpha state when, um, they're watching television. Really? Ever seen people and you're like, [00:45:05] "Bob, Bob," and you're trying to get Bob's attention and he's right next to you, but he's like staring at the [00:45:10] television screen, and he's so in it? That's actually in a light state of trance.
[00:45:14] Thais Gibson, PhD: He's actually in a light [00:45:15] state of trance. That's why he doesn't come to attention with what's happening right in that moment. Hmm. [00:45:20] Because, you know, and it's also part of why you see people pay so much money for Super Bowl commercials [00:45:25] because,
[00:45:26] Dr. Taz: because we're actually highly suggestible. Suggestible. Oh my [00:45:30] gosh, interesting.
[00:45:31] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Wow. So 21 days, two [00:45:35] to five minutes, moving a core wound to basically its opposite with [00:45:40] 10 positive memories that reaffirm the opposite, [00:45:45] basically, right? So in a relationship- If you're trying to reset the [00:45:50] dynamic between two people, do both people have to do that? [00:45:55]
[00:45:55] Thais Gibson, PhD: Ideally, yes. Yeah. We have other pillars.
[00:45:57] Thais Gibson, PhD: So, so, you know, there can be one person doing the work, and [00:46:00] it often does change the dynamic of the relationship, but we'll, we'll get into that. Um, i- [00:46:05] because if they're regulated enough without the core wounds, they know their needs and, and they [00:46:10] encourage the other person to communicate their needs.
[00:46:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:46:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: Nervous system's regulated, they're communicating better. These are other pillars, and they [00:46:15] have healthy boundaries. A lot of times they just become really healthy and lead by example. And if somebody's just willing to [00:46:20] follow suit, they may still get more triggered because of their core wounds, but they'll start communicating [00:46:25] differently.
[00:46:25] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. They'll have more needs being met in the relationship. They'll also start to have boundaries. So there, there [00:46:30] can often be one person really digging in, but that's up to the person doing the work to [00:46:35] vet their partner to make sure that they're not carrying the emotional load of everything alone and, and- Yeah
[00:46:39] Thais Gibson, PhD: to check [00:46:40] how they're at and if their partner's actually jumping on board and maybe doing the work by following suit rather than by sitting [00:46:45] down and actively doing the work. Um, but that first pillar is [00:46:50] extremely important for relationships because every relationship has what I call trigger cycles, and we'll go into the other pillars [00:46:55] in a second.
[00:46:55] Thais Gibson, PhD: But just before we leave this one- Yeah ... um, they have trigger cycles, which is so interesting. You can think [00:47:00] of a, a, an idea of wound behavior, wound behavior. Okay. Every [00:47:05] relationship has this, okay? Until you work through it. And exactly what one of your wounds [00:47:10] are, how you respond or how you behave when it's activated, when it's triggered, [00:47:15] will just so happen to trigger your partner's biggest core wound.
[00:47:18] Thais Gibson, PhD: Mm-hmm. And how they behave [00:47:20] will then re-trigger yours. So let's take a really obvious example. Anxious attachment, big abandonment [00:47:25] fear, okay? I know. Partner who's more avoidant, so that person isn't gonna take space. The person takes space, [00:47:30] they may get mean, they're abandoned. They get activated and triggered.
[00:47:34] Thais Gibson, PhD: They [00:47:35] cling to cope. That's their behavior, is the wound, abandonment. Behavior, cling. And when [00:47:40] they cling their avoidant partner feels more trapped, their big wound. [00:47:45] And how they behave when they feel triggered is to push away. And now that re-triggers the [00:47:50] abandonment, they cling- Mm. That triggers the, the, "Oh my gosh- " I see
[00:47:53] Thais Gibson, PhD: I feel trapped," and they push away. And [00:47:55] often until trigger cycles like this are resolved in relationships, they're usually the very thing [00:48:00] that ends a relationship at the end of the day. Wow. Um, because people just feel like they're [00:48:05] banging their head against the wall, and they get frustrated, and they feel like, "I've had enough."
[00:48:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: And so it's really important, it can be [00:48:10] extremely impactful in a short period of time to work through your wounds 'cause it unlocks you and gets you outside of these [00:48:15] cycles that can just make you wanna pull out your hair.
[00:48:18] Dr. Taz: Wow. Let's [00:48:20] talk briefly about the other... I think there are three more pillars, right?
[00:48:23] Dr. Taz: Is that right? Four more [00:48:25] pillars, yeah. Four more pillars. If you can give us just a blurb on, on each of those. I think the nervous [00:48:30] system regulation, you know, plays into my world big time because we see a [00:48:35] lot of nervous system dysregulation, sometimes for very biological or physical reasons. Yeah.[00:48:40]
[00:48:40] Dr. Taz: Sometimes it's just how somebody's wired. But talk a little bit about that one.
[00:48:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:48:45] Yeah. So, so that's our third pillar. And, and nervous system regulation is extremely important. All [00:48:50] three insecure attachment styles, they spend much more time in sympathetic nervous system mode. [00:48:55] Um, and, and so what we'll see is they're much more in fight or flight, and that's because they have more core wounds, so they constantly [00:49:00] get more activated about things.
[00:49:01] Thais Gibson, PhD: Then when they're more activated about things, they have certain ways of [00:49:05] coping, and of course their, their emotions are not so great, so then they have more cortisol or norepinephrine- [00:49:10] Yeah ... in their distressed state, then that signals their body to brace itself for fight or flight type of, of [00:49:15] activities.
[00:49:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: And, um, what's really interesting about this is [00:49:20] that you'll see a lot of people when they go from sympathetic nervous system mode, [00:49:25] when you look at the body of work in polyvagal theory, the work of Dr. Stephen Porges, you'll see that people, [00:49:30] when they spend a lot of time in fight or flight, it's actually ca- So we have sympathetic, and then we have our [00:49:35] window of tolerance or ventral vagal nervous system mode, which is this very healthy middle ground when we feel [00:49:40] open and sociable and energetic in a very clear, healthy way.
[00:49:44] Thais Gibson, PhD: And then we have [00:49:45] dorsal vagal shutdown mode, and this is when you s- you sit on the couch and you just [00:49:50] can't get up. Mm. You're, you've had enough. Yeah. And when people spend an inordi- [00:49:55] inordinate amount of time in sympathetic, they often actually end up oscillating [00:50:00] between fight or flight, then your body can't sustain that for long periods of time.
[00:50:03] Thais Gibson, PhD: Right. Eventually, when you do get a little bit [00:50:05] of reprieve, you go into dorsal vagal shutdown mode. You can also go there when you're very st- [00:50:10] distressed as well. Um, and then it, it's people who feel like they just can't [00:50:15] do much. Their everything feels tired, uh, exhausting and heavy, and they feel tired [00:50:20] when they wake up and, and it's because of all of this nervous system activity [00:50:25] that ideally we're just getting into our window of tolerance or ventral vagal mode.
[00:50:28] Thais Gibson, PhD: So what we help people do is [00:50:30] identify their nervous system patterns, where they're spending the most time, identify the [00:50:35] reasons they're spending the most time there psychologically. Is it because of core wounds? Is it because of unmet needs [00:50:40] or really poor boundaries? Is it because of conflict from painful communication?
[00:50:43] Thais Gibson, PhD: We really help them tap in [00:50:45] to rewiring their habits and patterns in these ways. We talked about the core wound pillar, but all the [00:50:50] other pillars get rewired, and then we get people to learn to process their emotions [00:50:55] when they are activated-
[00:50:56] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... to bring them
[00:50:57] Thais Gibson, PhD: back into ventral vagal nervous system mode, [00:51:00] because we can change our nervous system state at will.
[00:51:02] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, we rewire the root cause, but [00:51:05] we can do a lot of things that bring us into ventral vagal on a more regular basis. So there's things called [00:51:10] completion cycles, ways of discharging energy when we feel distressed to burn off excess cortisol, a whole bunch of different [00:51:15] things we can do from a nervous system perspective.
[00:51:17] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, and there's so much to say about that pillar. It's a [00:51:20] very deep pillar, but Um, you know, if somebody's just recognizing at a high [00:51:25] level and they don't wanna get into as much nitty-gritty or we don't have as much time to cover so much nitty-gritty, but- I
[00:51:29] Dr. Taz: [00:51:30] know. It's so much. So good
[00:51:32] Thais Gibson, PhD: If somebody's just, um, trying to [00:51:35] regulate their nervous system on an ongoing basis, they can start with really simple activities like [00:51:40] breathwork, meditation, mindfulness practice, things that are helping you slow down [00:51:45] and get back in your body.
[00:51:46] Thais Gibson, PhD: And ideally, you are doing those practices, [00:51:50] um, in that first hour that you wake up or last hour before you go to bed because we're actually [00:51:55] retraining what our nervous system is used to being in, what mode we're used to being in. And [00:52:00] if we learn to do things that keep us in our body and present with our breath and we're more present [00:52:05] in our world, we're more likely to be in parasympathetic nervous system mode or that, that [00:52:10] healthy specific area, ventral vagal.
[00:52:12] Thais Gibson, PhD: And that then allows us to be in a [00:52:15] position where we're not so activated. And as you know pr- better than, than anybody, [00:52:20] um, you know, when we're chronically in a dysregulated nervous system state, in fight or flight, I mean, excess [00:52:25] cortisol suppresses the immune system. Right. Right. Or, you know, there's e- more likely to be chronic and [00:52:30] systemic inflammation because- Yeah
[00:52:31] Thais Gibson, PhD: we've got access, and so they very much go together. So we really [00:52:35] take people in our programs in rewiring the root causes of why you're always activated, like the core [00:52:40] wounds and the unmet needs and the poor boundaries, and really doing that underlying work, but then we also [00:52:45] get them to practice moving out of sympathetic nervous system with specific activities that you can [00:52:50] do when you are activated, um, or, or upregulating out of dorsal vagal, and also [00:52:55] just having daily practices that will get your nervous system trained to spend more time in ventral vagal [00:53:00] specifically.
[00:53:01] Dr. Taz: This is so fascinating. So for couples- [00:53:05] Do you think this is work an individual should do or couples should do together? Like, do you like to target the [00:53:10] couple and the relationship or the individual, I guess is my question.
[00:53:13] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah, I honestly to be... [00:53:15] So, so I went in thinking, "Well, I'm gonna see couples," 'cause I saw c- couples in my [00:53:20] practice, and I would actually say it's a really big toss-up.
[00:53:22] Thais Gibson, PhD: I would say it's probably 70% singles [00:53:25] and 30% couples that come into our programs at this point, because it's really paced out for individuals, but then it [00:53:30] just, the, the tools are just tacked on together for if, if, uh, there's two of you, right? Yeah. So, [00:53:35] so it's really there for, for both sets of people. And, um, ideally couples [00:53:40] are doing it together if they're in a couple, 'cause it just helps really move the needle and deepen the connection [00:53:45] relationship.
[00:53:45] Thais Gibson, PhD: Like, one of the big pillars in there is knowing your needs. Yeah. Most people have no idea what their actual [00:53:50] needs are, and they're so different in relationships because we all try to love people as we love, [00:53:55] as we would need love. And so you have a lot of anxious people trying to like constantly validate and reassure their [00:54:00] partner with grandiose compliments and dropping everything and surprising them unexpectedly- Yeah
[00:54:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: when [00:54:05] they're in a fight to write them a letter and bring them food and, and people who are avoidant are like, "I just need [00:54:10] space and time and- Yeah ... and space when we're in an argument." And so people often are [00:54:15] speaking different languages in terms of how they give and receive love. And we've heard of love languages, [00:54:20] but it goes way deeper.
[00:54:20] Thais Gibson, PhD: Like, needs are much deeper than love languages. And, um, and we miss the mark. [00:54:25] And so we get people in couples to know their needs, um, to learn how to communicate those [00:54:30] things effectively so each other can hear them, to do that repeatedly enough that healthy communication [00:54:35] becomes their new baseline. Um, so people can definitely do it in couples, but they can also do it as [00:54:40] individuals, heal their attachment style, and now they're really prepared going into their next relationship to [00:54:45] be in a more secure relationship 'cause that's how they treat themselves.
[00:54:48] Thais Gibson, PhD: And wildly [00:54:50] enough, one of the biggest things I hear all the time is people who are like fearful avoidant or [00:54:55] anxious or dismissive, they'll often say, "Oh, secure people are boring to me." Oh. I'm outward, single, oh [00:55:00] bor- I don't know. And then they do the work and become secure and they're like, "Of course I want a secure person."
[00:55:04] Thais Gibson, PhD: Right. [00:55:05] "That feels healthy, that feels connected." Right. Because it's now a new subconscious comfort zone, so it very much [00:55:10] determines what we invest in as adults as
[00:55:11] Dr. Taz: well. So interesting. Have you seen couples turn around, [00:55:15] like in terms of-
[00:55:16] Thais Gibson, PhD: Oh ...
[00:55:16] Dr. Taz: high conflict to now- Oh my gosh,
[00:55:19] Thais Gibson, PhD: [00:55:20] yeah. Yeah. When you said it, it sounded like it was a TV show.
[00:55:23] Thais Gibson, PhD: I was like, Couples Turnaround, I haven't- [00:55:25]
[00:55:26] Dr. Taz: Yeah. That could be a good TV show, but anyhow, so... [00:55:30]
[00:55:30] Thais Gibson, PhD: Um, yes, absolutely. I mean, we, we have overall, so, [00:55:35] um, we get people to fill out their score from the core wound cycle, but we actually have, [00:55:40] um, people to fill out their, their satisfaction score and success rate overall, and entire, across our entire [00:55:45] platform, all the...
[00:55:45] Thais Gibson, PhD: We have like, um, a 90-day program. What their, um, satisfaction [00:55:50] score is with the program is 99.3%. So we have people who are highly satisfied with their results. [00:55:55] I'll, I'll be very transparent in the fact that we give that to people at the end of their course, so we don't... Like, if people [00:56:00] didn't stick through it, then like- Yeah
[00:56:01] Thais Gibson, PhD: one thing, but it's 90 days. The exercises are easy. And, [00:56:05] um, honestly, my favorite people to work with are high-conflict people. Mm. Um, [00:56:10] the, the big, they give you the tough ones. I love that, um, because that's where I came [00:56:15] from. That's how my family system was, and I think there's something, like, meaningful, um, for me about [00:56:20] knowing that that's a solvable problem for people and sort of putting an end to that.
[00:56:23] Thais Gibson, PhD: Often high-conflict [00:56:25] people are very big-hearted people, the big feelers, people who love hard, um, but have been through a [00:56:30] lot. And so those patterns play out, and you get to really break those generational cycles that way by [00:56:35] changing the conditioning, which is ultimately what's getting passed down.
[00:56:38] Dr. Taz: So [00:56:40] fascinating.
[00:56:40] Dr. Taz: Well, I'm definitely gonna check out your platform. I, I wanna learn more. If others are, you know, [00:56:45] wanting to learn more about their attachment style or their relationship style or, you [00:56:50] know, what's at play here, you know, uh, help us connect to you. What's the best way to find you and, and [00:56:55] find your platform?
[00:56:56] Thais Gibson, PhD: Yeah. Thank you. So I'm at personaldevelopmentschool.com. [00:57:00] Um, it's very much personal development for your relationships and the subconscious mind. And, um, people actually start [00:57:05] there, and they can take that free quiz. It gives them an in-depth report on their attachment style. You can take [00:57:10] it obviously with your partner.
[00:57:11] Thais Gibson, PhD: And, um, and then we go through these 90-day programs to really heal, [00:57:15] to transform, and, um, we try to make it super affordable for everybody so that people can get in there [00:57:20] and do it. Um, and so yeah, I'll, uh... It's at Personal Development School. I'm also on [00:57:25] YouTube, uh, which is Tyese Gibson-Personal Development School, and on [00:57:30] Instagram at The Personal Development School.
[00:57:31] Thais Gibson, PhD: And just a huge thank you to you. I, I love your work and, and, um- Oh, [00:57:35] thank you ... really grateful to, to chat today.
[00:57:37] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh, I probably could have talked to you about another [00:57:40] hour about the other pillars and what to identify in all of those pillars, but I wanna be [00:57:45] respectful of your time as well. And so for everyone watching and listening, remember, follow [00:57:50] Tyese and maybe check out her website and her platform, you know, if you're really trying to [00:57:55] get to that next level for yourself and for your relationship.
[00:57:58] Dr. Taz: You know, I've said often [00:58:00] in the exam room, and I'm, I'm gonna say it again, I hope I don't offend anybody, but I feel like talk [00:58:05] therapy only really gets you so far. It may be Like having a [00:58:10] best friend listen, but it's not the same as, like, doing the work to [00:58:15] retrain and reset some of the stuff that, that has been, like, molded into you, [00:58:20] maybe 'cause of how you grew up or what you've experienced throughout life.
[00:58:22] Dr. Taz: So I love, [00:58:25] you know, that we're having this conversation. And then for me, selfishly too, it's important because when we [00:58:30] have healthy relationships, we have healthy families. And nothing is sadder than [00:58:35] seeing conflict in a family which then translates into all [00:58:40] kinds of issues and symptoms and diagnoses for every member of that family, [00:58:45] right?
[00:58:45] Dr. Taz: Whether it's, you know, the woman with anxiety or the child with stomach aches or [00:58:50] somebody with, you know, whatever else it is. So I think it's, it's so important for us to all do the [00:58:55] work to create these healthy family units, to create secure attachment [00:59:00] styles for the next generation as well. So thank you again.
[00:59:02] Dr. Taz: That was a long-winded thank you. But thank you again [00:59:05] for- Of course ... joining us today. Of course. I appreciate it.
[00:59:07] Thais Gibson, PhD: I loved everything you said. It was beautiful. Thank you so [00:59:10] much for having
[00:59:10] Dr. Taz: me. You're welcome. And for everybody else, we post new episodes every week. We hope you like [00:59:15] this one. Don't forget to subscribe, share it with your friends.
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