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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.
Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.
Marc Beckman: Chris Williams is the founder and CEO of the amazing company, the innovative company pocket.watch, and I'm thrilled to have you join me today on Some Future Day. Chris, how are you?
Chris M. Williams: I'm thrilled to be here, Marc. You know, I have great, great affection for you. I don't know if like, uh,
Marc Beckman: Likewise.
Chris M. Williams: know our connection, but we obviously have known each other a very, very long time since college where we were both fraternity brothers and you were my pledge master. And, um, I'm just thrilled to be here.
I've watched what you've been doing with this podcast and with your incredibly forward thinking and innovative curiosity. And, uh, I, I, I love that and want to participate. So I'm just thrilled to be here.
Marc Beckman: Well, it's really a pleasure, and I can't thank you enough for your time. I know you're super busy, and you're in the middle of rolling out a nationwide film, which we'll get into in a minute, but you also just came back from Washington, D. C. You were at the White House,
right?
Chris M. Williams: did.
Marc Beckman: What was that about? all, for joining us today and I look forward to seeing you all next time.
Chris M. Williams: or conference, I think they actually called it. It was about a hundred people, and we had the opportunity to come together, uh, for a programmed event with, you know, some speakers and some panels.
Um, and some breakout sessions in order to tackle, you know, all the, this business is, the creator economy is getting very
all for joining us today, and we hope
to see you again in the future. was pretty incredible. Um, and I, it was the first time in my life that I had met a president, although I've known Kamala since she was the DA of San Francisco, so if she wins, I will have known a president as well.
uh, but
well, let's, let's,
Marc Beckman: let's talk a little bit about this. It's really interesting, actually. So, um, how many of your peers, how many people from the creator economy, uh, joined you in meeting the president?
for joining us today. Wow. a period. Um, some great journalists, everyone from, uh, the founders of Tubefilter, who I've known forever, uh, Drew Baldwin and Josh Cohen, to Taylor Lorenz, who I, I, Likened to the, uh, translator of internet, uh, and digital culture to older people.
Chris M. Williams: She's currently reporting for the Washington Post, but has her own kind of big brand. So it was, it was quite a great group and a eclectic group. I would say I knew probably, I thought I'd know more people. I probably knew about 15 out of the hundred. Uh, so it was kind of quite nice getting to meet a lot of people that I didn't know.
Marc Beckman: Chris, a common, um, concern amongst people that are not in government is that, uh, government officials really don't know enough about certain sectors within the marketplace to, um, effectively regulate, let's say. So I'm curious in your experience, uh, in DC, did you find that the members of the executive branch, I imagine you met with more than just President Biden, but did you find that his team was knowledgeable about your business sector?
Chris M. Williams: This is the first administration to have an office of digital. I don't remember these. I forget. I think it's the Office of Digital Something, but it's the first administration to ever have this. it's led by a gentleman named, uh, who's literally the Director of Digital Affairs or something like that
Marc Beckman: I see. Sure.
Chris M. Williams: generally speaking I agree that the government understand this stuff enough and I'm very fearful as it relates to things like AI and the speed at which they'll be able to regulate that.
But being in the kids creator side, kids and families in particular, It is a highly regulated area with lots of actually current legislation proposed and actually in the, in the, in the, moving from the Senate to the House. And, um, the White House seems to understand this, these particular issues a little better.
I'm fearful that the Senate and the House don't. As much, I think the White House has really made a concerted effort. there were other speakers as well, like the press secretary and folks like that, and they all seem to have a good understanding, not as good an understanding as we did, but that's why I think we are
Marc Beckman: Of course.
Chris M. Williams: in
Marc Beckman: Yep.
Chris M. Williams: us, um,
Marc Beckman: That's, that's, it's, it's, it's great.
Chris M. Williams: and challenges going forward.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, it's encouraging. I actually sat down with a few Congress people who sat on the, uh, Congressional Cryptocurrency Task Force and they admitted that they need the experts in the industry to really help shine light and, and pave the way that regulation and, and frankly, unlocking growth within the United States economy will come in an optimized way if they allow for the experts to come in.
So, it's good that, that they're It's good to hear that, um, they gave you that platform. So of course I got to ask you, what was it like meeting President Biden?
Chris M. Williams: Well, first of all, it's just such an honor. I mean, like, You don't get to meet presidents very often. And he literally at a certain point was like right next to me, like basically talking to me in my row and like, just, you know, felt very intimate fabulous storyteller. I think actually my, the highlight was when he kicked the press corps out of the room, I think.
And it gave me an appreciation for what that must be like, because what happened is he had some prepared remarks. took him about eight, nine minutes. They were largely directed towards this creator economy conference, but you know, he edged in. It was a good day for him because he had had the, um, he's able to now negotiate, the government can now negotiate, uh, Medicare prices for prescription drugs.
That was a huge, huge kind of deal and he kind of slipped into some other things. And so the press corps was actually invited in for that particular period of the conference. it was awesome because he, like, soon as, like, he was like, okay, now I'm gonna, I want to talk to the, this group, like, meaning us, not the press corps, like, and if you have a question, I'd love to hear it from you.
And then the press corps just starts screaming. I mean, they're just like and yelling, Hunter this, and like, you know, and Kamala that, and like,
Marc Beckman: It's wild.
Chris M. Williams: you can't even understand a word of what's happening. And he's just like. Okay, we're not enough of you guys, gonna
Marc Beckman: Amazing. Did
Chris M. Williams: like the next 20 25 minutes was just us, and it was, it was really
Marc Beckman: you, did you ask him anything?
Chris M. Williams: kind of special.
I didn't, the, we only got, ironically, only one question got asked. The person who asked it was a creator who, um, was so funny because later on he describes it as like, I got up and raised my hand, I didn't even know what question I was gonna ask, I just wanted to ask a question. I love it. even remember what the question was.
And the truth is, like I was honored and it was a privilege and it is very clear that Biden has been a great steward of the office of the president and I have certainly felt a great sense of relief personally over the last four years relative to the four prior and, um, you know, but I did feel like, you know, you're 81, you're doing the right thing.
I felt encouraged by the fact that he had passed the torch along to Kamala. And, um, um, you know, he, he, he, he deserves to retire. I'll be honest. Like he, he kind of, kind of felt like grandpa.
Marc Beckman: So, Chris, um, what would you like to see the executive branch move going forward as it relates to policy specifically in your business sector? Like, I know you're saying there's some legislation and it's easy to default back to conversations surrounding, you know, all so much for joining us today, and we hope to see you again in the future.
Really, really put us in a position to, I, I assume it's fair to say we lead on a global scale with regards to creator economy. Maybe you could verify that for me, but assuming that's accurate, what could we do then? What could the, what could the government do for us to set a policy that will keep us in that lead position?
Chris M. Williams: This is a really big question. And first of all, I'm a bit cynical, speaking, as it relates to the power of the platforms. this is actually something that I'm, I have not spoken about prior as I've, I've, I've ultimately. I wanted to retain as much diplomacy as with the folks that I do the most business with, which are the massive platforms, right?
And I'm talking about Meta and I'm talking about, you know, Google primarily and YouTube, right? And it, and it's, and, and Apple and Amazon, right? These companies
Have so much power and when you look at it in the context of the creator economy I always talk about this and I try I do this more for sanity and for Making sure my partners my creator partners in particular have sanity as well But when you're a platform like YouTube you have three constituencies You have advertisers, you have consumers, and you have creators and publishers.
And your prioritizations are in that order. You prioritize advertisers over everything else, and then you prioritize consumers, and the last people you care about, although you feign to, is creators because you have an unlimited supply. And I honestly don't think there's anything the industry can do or the government can do to change that other than one thing, which is Somewhat controversial and has some downsides and cons, which is to break these companies up.
And I am not generally that guy who's, who's, who's calling for the breakup of these companies. But if you look at them, first of all, they're multi trillion dollar companies. We've never seen anything like that in the history of, of, of mankind. They have so much power. It is unreal, more power than the government many, many cases.
And I honestly feel like if you want to affect the relationship between creators and platforms, the only way to do it is to break them up. There's no other solution. I really don't know. I, I, all I know is that they are the least prioritized and have no power at all.
Marc Beckman: So, so you're the low man on the totem pole, even though you're bringing all the sugar and all the eye candy, but you know, I guess my question is just, it seems like there are so many platforms available today, even the idea of you creating your own platform, so is it really just the fact that like a brand like YouTube dominates the eyeballs and they have the viewership and that's where you're limited?
And do you want to break them up so that the, you know, Viewership is dispersed in a more equal way across platforms because, you know, even with your movie now, you have distribution across so many different streamers. You have distribution in brick and mortar, uh, theaters. Um, but, but I would imagine that the audience is concentrated heavily with YouTube, perhaps the theaters on meta. Um, but there are a lot of platforms.
Are you, penalizing, them for doing a good job in galvanizing the audience?
Chris M. Williams: Well, no, there's always a middleman, what I'm saying. Like, so, even, you know, there's always a middleman. There just is, between me and the audience. Like, even people who are like, whoa, it's direct to consumer. It's like, no, you still gotta go through the Apple store, the Google store. Like, there's really no such thing, right?
So, first of all, like, there's always this platform that sits in between you and your audience. I'm not saying YouTube doesn't do anything right. Like, they do plenty right. They're the only platform that pays creators. I mean, look, I give them incredible credit for that, but we've gotten now to a place where their power is so great that you think about it in context of, like, government, for example.
Government, when government wants to do something, they, they're slow, they take comment from the industries that they're going to affect, right? And they invite conversation and debate around it. And then when they finally decide to do something, they give you what? A year maybe two years to comply. Okay.
Contrast that with platforms and their enormous power. I have a majority of my content consumption is on YouTube, period right? We do 10 billion views a month on YouTube, right? Yes. We have, we're on 50 platforms globally, but that's,
Marc Beckman: Chris, Chris,
Chris M. Williams: audience.
Marc Beckman: Chris, you're saying that Pocket Watch today does 10 billion views per month on YouTube alone?
Chris M. Williams: Yeah. We have about 50 creator partners. So that's combining our 50 creator partners Amazing. We have over a billion subscribers across 50 partners. So. Uh, you know, it's a, it's a, we, we only work with the, the folks that kind of been through the, um, uh, Hunger Games of YouTube, if you will. The most democratic platform in the world for video ever and have come through the other side, extraordinarily popular, and that, that's, that's typically when we would partner with them.
But I would say, let me get back a little bit to what I was Please. government takes a long time, they're methodical, they invite comment. They, they will say, okay, like, what you did retroactively, it's fine, we're just, here's going forward, here's new rules, and you have 12 to 24 months. Contrast that with a platform like a Google and a YouTube.
Every discussion they have that will affect me and the creator economy is done in private, completely opaquely, behind closed doors. I have no idea what those conversations are. I'm not invited into those conversations. I have no idea what they are. And then when they decide to change things, a policy, the way the algorithm works, or whatever, they, they announce it, say comply, retroactively, immediately.
Right? I'll take the government all day long in that context. And, and so it does, it does make it really challenging despite the benefits of these platforms. And look, I love YouTube, but I'd love YouTube more probably if it wasn't part of Google. I think it would invite more competition. You know, I think when the internet started, we all had this fantasy and this belief that it was going to be some open platform.
And it didn't. It's not. It is literally reverted back to what every media has reverted back to. and there's what, five major players that control the entire internet, globally? Like, maybe outside of China? Like, I, you know what I'm saying? Like, so, I just, to me, that's, I like, I'm not a libertarian or anything, but I like the idea of a more open, more competitive, um,
Marc Beckman: Well, it certainly, you know, if it is a competitive marketplace, it certainly allows for progress, just not with creativity, but with commercialism, with capitalism and beyond, and that allows for a better society. Um, why do you think it is that companies like YouTube don't bring their creators to the table when they're having those, um, closed door discussions?
Wouldn't it be beneficial to them if they, um, included you early on in the planning phase and, and allowed for you to continue to unlock mutual value?
Chris M. Williams: No, I think from their perspective, they're going to do right, what's right for them and their shareholders. And I think that, to a certain extent, is their responsibility.
Marc Beckman: For sure. They have a fiduciary duty to
do so. and so, I, I don't know. I think they care what creators think, but there's not, creators don't have any power. It's not like SAG, know, where like SAG can just go, okay, we're gonna go on strike, and that's gonna deeply affect the ecosystem around.
Chris M. Williams: know, content, and entertainment content in particular, television and movies, streaming, stuff like that. YouTube and these other platforms, it's, it's for every creator that decides they're gonna walk out, there's another guy who'll just take his place and not care. Yeah, I just think that puts creators in a very weak position.
It's very hard to make them unite, it's very Difficult to have any sort of power relative to the power of these platforms.
And it creates a lack of competition as well. Like, I mean, I'm looking, looking out at, you know, when has, when was, when has there been a wave? When was the last time there was a wave of new digital companies? You know what I'm saying? Like, that look like they're going to have anything close to the scale of the current,
Marc Beckman: sure.
you know? Well, I, I wonder, um, you know, I often talk about the fact that, um, platforms like. Fortnite are going to have a very dramatic shift as it relates to the creator economy in particular, because the founder of Fortnite has created some incredible photorealistic technology, which I believe is going to allow for people to have a new delivery as it relates to shows, talk shows, Uh, different formats and entertainment.
Fortnite, in my opinion, in two, three years from now, because of all of these new technologies, won't just be a, you know, multiplayer game with guns. It will be a new delivery system, I believe, for our content, much of the type that you're talking about. When YouTube was groundbreaking, um, it was an interesting time and I think we're on the precipice of seeing another disruption, platform wise, with companies like Fortnite.
Chris M. Williams: You're right. Brands like Fortnite. Epic. I, um, see it already as a platform, right? It's, it is, Fortnite Creative is an open platform to create games. They obviously also have Unreal. We
Marc Beckman: Unreal Engine is incredible Unreal all the time. I'm referencing because it's exclusive to Fortnite, right?
He created it.
Chris M. Williams: will say like I have a pretty optimistic vision of what new technology will bring to the creator economy.
I'm, I'm insanely bullish on this, And the reason I am, in part, is because Unreal is just a small piece of the puzzle, but what I always say is creators need three things to be successful. They need desire, they need skill and talent, And they need means. Okay? So let's look at means for a second, right?
If I want to make Stranger Things or Avatar, the means that I require are hundreds of millions of dollars. The reason YouTube is synonymous with certain formats, whether those be podcast videos, or toy unboxing, or let's play gaming, or vlogging, is not because somehow YouTube was uniquely set up to reward those particular formats.
It's because that's what the monetization will support, Because that's what the means, the creators had the means to do those formats, and those formats propagated a platform that was You know that, that monetizes in a different way. Uh, more democratically in fact, but one in which it's more difficult.
Even the biggest creator in the world can't afford to make stranger things like Mr. Beast can't make stranger things, right? So you think about it in that context, these new technologies, whether that's unreal or, um, all the AI animation technologies, all the AI a, uh, video creation technologies, like, I'm insanely excited about this because the way I see it going is.
and you know, Spielberg said, you know, I love this quote, If a pen cost a hundred million dollars, we'd have no William Shakespeare, And now the, the cost of making a beautiful, premium, avatar, Stranger Things like video is gonna get close to the cost of the pen! Not the hundreds of millions of dollars.
And what does this do? This opens up a whole new world for creators that have desire and skill to now take advantage of these democratic open video platforms in ways that the monetization works on for premium content. And to me, I just want to get these tools in the hands of the best creators possible so that we start to see a new New formats and new types of content that are way more premium, rooted in storytelling.
It doesn't mean the other stuff's gonna go away. I love Let's Play gaming and vlogging and podcast videos and all that. That stuff will remain, but we'll have a whole new class of videos. And then you think about what Epic just did with Disney, and I think about that as how existing IP, which I truly believe in, I think we all love to come together around existing story universes, I look at what they did with Epic and to me that represents the future of how creators intersect with intellectual property, with IP.
So, Epic, so Disney invested 1. 5 billion dollars in Epic, and at the same time as investing 1. 5 billion dollars, they did a commercial deal, which will make their IP available to game creators, game developers, who develop games for the Fortnite creative platform, as long as Disney retains, I believe, approval and a royalty.
And I can see that extending to video. And so instead of having, like, just one big Star Wars movie every ten years or whatever, we're gonna have, like, Lots of Star Wars created by the creators in, you know, who are doing things that are as beautiful and as good as things you might find on TV and streaming and movies and I just, I am very excited about the future of that world and I almost feel like a pressure, like I'm behind already, like I feel that sense of
anxiety.
Marc Beckman: the single most thing that you're excited about commercially right now?
Chris M. Williams: Yeah.
But I'm usually early. Like, I will say, I'm generally early, but the AI stuff seems to be moving faster than I've ever seen anything move in my entire life. And you know, I've been involved in early, you know, I was one of the first hundred at Yahoo, right? I'm early to everything.
Marc Beckman: I know, I know.
Chris M. Williams: this, one is moving so fast, man. our biggest partner is a kid, little kid named Ryan, right? He started making videos when he was four, he's 12 now, he just started in this movie. And about a year and a half ago, we decided we needed to clone his voice for some animated stuff and dubbing, right?
And so we used his, a cloned version of his voice. I had to put him in a studio, a recording studio, for like, I don't know, three hours, three hours across two days to record 2, 000 lines in order to clone his voice. Um, OpenAI says they can clone a voice in 15 seconds now. I've played around with apps like Captions, where literally I'll recite a 45 second script, 60 second script, and it has cloned not just my voice, but cloned me, right?
And it's a talking head. Like, that's how fast this stuff is moving. So I, I, I literally think we're gonna go from like, You know, Pixar level animation costing 2. 2 million dollars a minute to it costing five dollars a minute in less than five years.
Marc Beckman: I, I agree. I had a meeting with the founder of Respeecher, which
is arguably Dumb.
uh, text to speech, um, AI company. I think they're about number two in speech to speech right now, but But closing in on that number one slot and the technology, the advances are happening in an accelerated pace.
It's really incredible what they've done. And the accuracy with regards to the replication of that voice is incredible. ReSpeecher was particularly interesting because they're being prudent and sensitive and cognizant of the fact that, um, you know, people can be tricked. Bad things can happen with these, uh, duplicates, right?
So
Chris M. Williams: it's, it's an interesting situation. I think we're all a little overly, you know, I think we're, uh, I'm a bit concerned. Yes.
Marc Beckman: For sure, for sure. But let's go back to like, you started the conversation, um, using the word curious. I don't know if you remember, and you're highlighting Walt Disney, and I actually wanted to, uh, read to you a quote from Mr. Walt Disney that I prepared for you in this conversation. Walt Disney said, We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things because we're curious, and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths. Again, we keep moving forward, opening new doors and doing new things because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths. Mr. Walt Disney, amazing, amazing human being. And I'm curious, what keeps you curious, Chris? You're like, you said you're typically ahead of the curve, um, but you're a very curious person if you're ahead of the curve.
So what keeps you curious?
Chris M. Williams: You know, it's a great question. Keeps
Marc Beckman: Thank you.
Chris M. Williams: I mean, I really have always tried to be channeling my inner, you know, child, uh, and that's probably the most curious I can, I can be. I, I love geeking out, you know, like on topics that are just, um, interesting to me. I've always been obsessed with this intersection of, you know, Technology and entertainment.
And I'd say those that, that really, that my driving force of my curiosity, um, has been around that particular convergence. And, and, um, it drives me, you know, it just really drives me. Like I'm, I'm, I could take, I literally wish I could take a year off right now and just immerse myself in everything AI entertainment and know it all.
Like, I literally like. It pains me that I don't have, like, the time to immerse myself and indulge my curiosity,
Marc Beckman: it's
Chris M. Williams: it'll pay off,
Marc Beckman: It's even beyond AI, though, for you, like this content section, this intersection of content and tech. I mean, you're impacted with artificial intelligence, with spatial computing, with the delivery of content via VR, via AR. Um, even when you talk about the, uh, power of these platforms being too centralized, you could decentralize distribution.
With blockchain technology. I mean, the emerging technologies as it relates to your world, Chris Williams individually are beyond compelling right now. So is the technology keeping you curious or are you curious as a person and therefore you're following the technology? I
Chris M. Williams: I think I'm curious as a person. I do think it's a necessary ingredient. To being an entrepreneur, I think you have to, and you all, you know, cause it, it, it's the foundation for also certain decision making, you know, I mean, it's like, it, it, it runs deep curiosity Like it,
Marc Beckman: think it's like a sort of blessing in your life, Chris, honestly. Like if you think about it, I have a lot of friends, you know, we're, we're. Pretty much the same age. And I have a lot of friends, I'm sure you do too, who aren't as enthusiastic about their careers and building as you are. Um, so do you find that now, like guys and girls in their mid 50s and perhaps because they don't have that creative, curious spark, they're kind of just in their J O B and they're kind of moving through life without as much enthusiasm as you are?
Chris M. Williams: yeah. I mean, I think I know an equal amount of folks or, you know, I've always tried to surround myself with friends and, um, even within, in, um, yeah, all, all my circles, like I try and surround myself with like minded. Folks who are curious as well. yeah, there's a lot of people on cruise control. I, I, you know, and also, you know, we, we, you know, we're getting older.
It's, it's, I, it's a little more forgivable now. Like I, you know, I get a little tired too, like everybody, we get a little more tired than usual.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, but it's also shifting technology and content are shifting culture in major, major ways. So going back to Walt Disney, what do you think he would say about, um, this, this place that we're in right now as it relates to content creation and delivery with the advent of these new technologies?
Chris M. Williams: I mean, I think he'd be a kid in a candy store. I think the, the thing about Walt Disney The person we're talking about,
yes, yeah, Okay. the so much for being here. So, Dr. Bell, I'm going to close the podcast
Marc Beckman: for the day. I think we do have a couple
of more questions. Yes? I have a question. On our
website, we've got a 20 minute video for people to watch. So uh, if you have any questions, please go ahead and put those in the chat area.
Bye bye, everybody. he literally had, it's a, it's a classic, I don't know when you're editing this, but you pull up his little, he has a drawing of what a franchise is.
Chris M. Williams: That still holds true today. And he enabled, he envisioned this concept of IP being more than just an expression of like a movie. Right. Did it with theme parks and all, you know, at tv, like, I mean, he was, he, he, you know. He, at Consumer Products, I mean, he is the architect of the modern idea of franchise, and he would use technology and innovation to, to enable that, those, those franchise economics and franchise extensions, and, and I think that the core principles of what Walt described.
Just still totally there. So like everything is just an extension of that IP. And so he still puts, he always put creator and creative at the center. And I, I believe that, right. I think you have to start there and then, you know, cause it doesn't matter how good the technology is or how open the platform is or how, how you.
It doesn't, that stuff
It's just a new way of reaching your audience.
Marc Beckman: Right. Well, do people like it? Like, going to Walt Disney, the company now, like, I know that they've hit some choppy waters with executive management changes over the past, you know, 18, 24 months. Stock was hit pretty hard, too. They took some bold risks as it relates to, uh, content and positioning, um, in an attempt to be inclusive.
I think they also alienated a lot of their Uh, conservative base. How do you feel, uh, the company stands today as it relates to culture?
Chris M. Williams: Well, you know, having been, you know, I've been, I did two stints at Disney, I know. I know. two companies. Uh, one, one I started called Take 180 and another one where I was chief Audience Officer called Maker Studios and acquired them back to back. So, and I do have a great love and admiration of the Walt Disney Company, incredible love and admiration
Marc Beckman: Me too.
Chris M. Williams: Bob, Bob Iger and I, and I.
I think his return will, will mark, um, a new era of, of success and growth. Um, but it starts with the creative engine. I think the creative engine was stumbling. You've seen it stumble in the past for Disney before. So, you know, the first thing Bob Iger did when he got to Disney was he acquired Pixar, right?
And, and that was really about putting a creative engine at the center of the company. And I think And now, he's, you know, taking a really hard look at those creative engines, and now within the company, those are much more vast than just animation, uh, kids animation, now it's, know, Marvel and Star Wars in particular, uh, Lucas and, and Star Wars, and, uh, Lucas and, um, Marvel, and, look, I think, I think he's gonna, I think they had a great summer, like, I don't think anyone would have said, oh, Inside Out 2 will be the biggest thing, The highest grossing animated film of all time, which it is, um, and then coming on with sort of the extended stuff, even last weekend, you know, Aliens, Romulus, which opened up to over 40 million dollars, was released.
It's a Disney movie. It's not Disney branded, but it was part of their Fox acquisition, and they've really leaned into that. Um, I'm extremely bullish on Disney. I would say the number one reason I'm bullish on Disney is because I believe in IP. And at its core owns the most valuable entertainment IP in the world by far.
there will always be another way to extend that IP that we haven't even thought of yet. And all these new technologies that we're talking about, like, they're just, they're going to be a boon for existing IP. Whether that's, you know, large language models having to pay to, like, search them. Whether it's, uh, you know, embodiments in virtual reality.
Whether it's open gaming stuff on Epic and Fortnite. Like, It's just, it's always going to reward existing IP. And so as long as they own, as long as humans still desire to connect through storytelling and, and common stories that we all love and enjoy, and IP, like, I, I think Disney is just, I'm just, we haven't even opened up all the possibilities.
I mean, think about it this way. When Star Wars the movie came out in 1977, the business model for that movie was one row in a spreadsheet. And that row was theatrical tickets.
Marc Beckman: Amazing.
Chris M. Williams: come a long way from there,
Marc Beckman: So Chris, do you feel that your company, pocket.watch, is a natural evolution for, um, these, for like the Disney business model, where at the core, you're leveraging intellectual property and you're extending into different consumer touch points? Did Disney inspire you to create pocket.watch's business model?
Chris M. Williams: a hundred percent. So Disney really inspired the creation of pocket.watch primarily because they're so good at extending IP and content. And while I was there and I saw kids video consumption habits drastically change, and I saw it in my house, I saw it in the data, you know, but really seeing it change and where that shift moved.
From traditional television channels like Disney Channel and
Marc Beckman: Yeah. Interesting.
Chris M. Williams: to YouTube, um, was profound and, you know, as a curious entrepreneur, I was like, why, right, curiosity, why, why are we working with these creators who have bigger audiences? And more engaged fandoms than anything we have on TV now, and extending them the way we would traditional franchise.
I don't
Marc Beckman: Interesting. Yeah.
Chris M. Williams: But it's,
Marc Beckman: were you the first to do it, Chris? Were you really the first one to, to take advantage of that new entertainer?
Chris M. Williams: I think to do it at the scale and, um, with the commitment. And thesis, yeah, I do. I think certainly people have done things on the fringes that were extending creator brands, but they weren't saying, I'm gonna do it like Disney. I'm gonna take Ryan's ToysReview, I'm gonna create a new brand called Ryan's World, I'm gonna extend that into a billion dollar consumer products licensing, uh, business.
I'm gonna extend that into a hit TV show with 90 episodes, to a feature film, to a balloon in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Those were all part of the original vision, and I don't think anybody Had, had that original, had that vision, uh, prior to Pocket Watch.
Marc Beckman: Yeah. So it's interesting. So Pocket Watch today, I'm, I'm, I'm going to get into Ryan's world in a second, but like, uh, Pocket Watch today, you said has, you have a portfolio of over 50 different creators today. What, can you name a few of the bigger ones that the audience would be familiar with?
Chris M. Williams: Sure, uh, you know, this is primarily for you audience members that have kids in your house. Um, uh, if you don't, even though these are the biggest channels in the world on YouTube, you might not recognize them. But, um, Kids Diana Show, you know, go, without, she's the most followed girl on all of YouTube. Over 300 million subscribers across 20 different channels translated into like 19 different languages.
Um, Um, her main channel alone has over 100 million subscribers, I mean, just massive. Toys and Colors, which is a channel I love, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot of imaginative play, like, um, play, uh, which I think is great for kids, too. And, um, it's an ensemble. So it's a little more Mickey Mouse Club.
There's like some adults and some kids and it rotates and shifts. And so it's a little more Menudo or like Mickey Mouse
Marc Beckman: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris M. Williams: Um, uh, and that's actually like, if you go onto TubeFilter charts this week, it's the biggest channel in the world. It's bigger than Beast. It's bigger than Cocomelon.
It's the biggest channel in the world.
Marc Beckman: Amazing.
Chris M. Williams: most viewed channel in the world. I think, you
Marc Beckman: Congratulations.
Chris M. Williams: yeah, it's huge. And we're, we have some things coming for them that I can't, Talk about, but, um, um, those are probably the two biggest. We have Dan Rhodes, the most viewed magician of all time on YouTube.
Who's is a 20 year old, um, fabulously charming, awesome individual from
Marc Beckman: I love that. Yeah, that's so cool. I didn't realize that's yours. I love magic. So that's so cool that that's
yours. yeah. we've, Amazing.
Chris M. Williams: the best and we even had, uh, we've, yeah, we've put him in some other things and we're working on some big stuff with Dan
Marc Beckman: what's the nature of the relationship between your company, pocket.watch, and the creators? Is there an opportunity for you to take a piece of equity early on and grow that value proposition? Is it just more transactional in nature?
Chris M. Williams: It's definitely not transactional. So we consider ourselves investors in, in these creators and, and building out their brands and their franchises. Um, and typically the business model, know, we're not agents and managers. And oftentimes our partners have agents and managers, and that's not us. We're more like the studio partner.
Um, so we do three major things with our creators. Um, first and foremost, we think the most important part of brand building for those creators and for generating new revenue streams is to take their existing content. That they're already creating every day. We that. We cure it. We enrich it. We package it.
We turn it into TV, right? We make 22 minute episodes out of it. We inject new types of content into those 22 minute episodes so that there's new, original, exclusive stuff in there.
Marc Beckman: Yeah,
Chris M. Williams: we're able to take that Content, typically a season is 15 episodes, 22 minutes an episode, then bring it to other third party platforms, but not open platforms.
So we don't like take their YouTube content and then bring it to Meta. we do is we Take, take it, turn it into TV, basically, turn it into premium content, and bring it to platforms like Hulu, and Peacock, and Disney and Sky in the UK, and Spacetune in the Middle East, and Astro in Malaysia, and like, all these closed platforms where you need to have deals and trust, and they're looking for people that Like, the creators couldn't get those deals on their own because those companies aren't
Marc Beckman: sure.
Chris M. Williams: with individual creators.
They're
Marc Beckman: Amazing.
Chris M. Williams: to, like, license massive libraries from companies like ours. So that's the first thing we do. It creates new incremental revenue streams for the, for the creator partners that they wouldn't otherwise have. And they're, I call them but fors, but for pocket.watch, that revenue stream would not exist for them.
And then, and two, most importantly, is it creates An adjacency to other content and brands that we think is critical for parents to accept their kids fandom of those brands because they've been media shamed about YouTube for a decade and they think anything on YouTube must be bad, right? But
Marc Beckman: Sure.
Chris M. Williams: when they see, you know, content sitting next to Bluey on Disney Plus their perception changes.
Marc Beckman: For sure.
I get that. As the parent of a seven year old, I understand that.
Chris M. Williams: That's part one. Part two is really almost strictly a monetization thing about YouTube. So, YouTube, is less about franchise building, this is really about monetization, but we do this for our creators and it's really important. The regulatory constraints associated with monetizing kids content are pretty, um, big.
COPPA the biggest one, it's the Child Online Privacy Protection Act. And what that means In a nutshell is brands cannot use data to target advertising to kids.
Marc Beckman: Got it.
Chris M. Williams: So you have to use context. So, can't use, I can't target you, Marc. I have to target the thing you're watching
Marc Beckman: Got
it. right?
Chris M. Williams: so
Marc Beckman: So uh, very much. Amazing.
Chris M. Williams: spend 10 million a year, you don't get to talk to a human.
Marc Beckman: Amazing.
Chris M. Williams: And so we. Have done a deal with YouTube where we have the right to sell ads Directly into YouTube kids and made for kids content on YouTube So, on behalf of our creators and our own brands and content, one of only 10 companies in the world that have that right.
And that's basically because one, we have the scale. I talked about the 10 billion views a month, that matters.
Marc Beckman: Yeah.
Chris M. Williams: is we're the gold standard from a regulatory compliance perspective. We're not going to get them in trouble. We're not going to get our partners in trouble. We're not going to get
Marc Beckman: Sure,
Chris M. Williams: We care deeply about following, being the gold standard from a regulatory perspective. So,
all for joining us today, and we hope to see you again
soon. 40 to 70 percent of all their views and all their consumption comes from YouTube Kids, which monetizes basically at zero, without us.
And so we're able to bring a whole new level of ad monetization. So what we did off the so Yeah. company. So it's kind of
gaming, uh, you know, all the extensions from toys to
Marc Beckman: So, so Chris, what you've done really is you've effectively used one of you've identified a weakness within Google's ecosystem and took it in to build your own ecosystem.
So to a certain extent, you're controlling because you have now distribution that you could monetize coupled with the creators.
So you're, you're basically effectively running your own destiny because you're controlling this, this massive kid. Chris,
Chris M. Williams: that they can't bring, they don't want to bring, they're not investing to bring whether that's Consumer products or getting their shows on Hulu or, uh, selling ads on YouTube kids, like Google's not really investing in that stuff.
So they really embrace us and, and, and look, we consider ourselves very good partners with them, despite my calls to break up the company.
Marc Beckman: how big is your infrastructure? How many people do you have to, um, help you support that, that ecosystem?
Chris M. Williams: full time employees, we have about 55, um, but we obviously scale up big time, um, for content creation. So when
Marc Beckman: Who's your competitor? all for
joining us today. but it's not that we're all for joining us today, and I look forward to
seeing you all next time.
Chris M. Williams: and,
very
much. I just want to slash and burn my way to as much money as I humanly can while I'm popular and take it off the table and just put it in my pocket and then I don't have to worry again.
Like, honestly, I'm not judging. I totally get that mentality, right? But that makes a difficult partner for us. And that's somebody who I would say, like, just go get an agent and manager You
Marc Beckman: but but you're saying that from the perspective of, you know, Ryan's World. I, I heard that Ryan's World is bigger than Mr. Beast on YouTube. Is that, is that right?
Chris M. Williams: probably not at the moment, but I think as a brand, Ryan's World is bigger than any brand ever created by YouTube. That, that, you know, um,
Marc Beckman: I mean, if you look at revenue, I read somewhere that it's, it's north of 500 million a year in revenue now.
Chris M. Williams: well, it's a little bit, I don't want to be, you know, people take the Roth top of the funnel numbers and they like Yeah. bit bigger. Yeah, Revenue. dollars in retail sales, but you know, there's a funnel there, but yes, they are set for life. They're Yeah. they're great grandkids, they're great great grandkids, multi generational wealth.
know,
Marc Beckman: How old is Ryan now?
Chris M. Williams: Ryan's 12th.
Marc Beckman: So he's a 12 year old billionaire.
Chris M. Williams: I wouldn't call him a billionaire, but he's certainly a 12 year old, uh,
Set for life. all for joining us today
and I look
forward to, seeing you all in the future. to set aside a certain amount of money for kids and things like that. Influencer World doesn't have that yet, but Ryan and his sisters own half the company. Like, they are fully like, and they have trusts and all the things, and like, they really represent the gold standard.
uh in terms of how to treat the
Marc Beckman: In preparation for our conversation, I watched numerous interviews of Ryan's parents and I heard his mother actually say in one interview that she really lets Ryan decide every single time as to whether or not he wants to participate,
which,
Chris M. Williams: it's
Marc Beckman: you know, I think is unheard of for such a huge property now, but that's accurate.
She,
he really does have yes i mean
nice people, huh?
Chris M. Williams: know the big move into things like animation and additional characters and surrounding ryan with a world that doesn't require his direct participation you know it's a bit that's kind of the holy grail of what we're trying to do where the movie is kind of like the epitome of Right?
Marc Beckman: Yeah, but Crip, you know, that's the Holy Grail for any, any high profile person. When I was working with Cal Ripken Jr., he's like, I can't be in a million places at once. Um, when I was working with Kawhi Leonard, his uncle was always like, how do we keep leveraging him and monetizing him without putting him there?
So whether you're a child or an adult or a young adult, like that's what you want to do, right? You got to
scale,
Chris M. Williams: And
Marc Beckman: right?
Chris M. Williams: bit, like it's funny when we With, with, with the movie, like, I can't have Ryan show up at every movie theater, right? That's, doesn't scale.
Marc Beckman: Right.
Chris M. Williams: every theater would be sold out, right? But we have what we realized, probably a little too late, but what we realized is we could send in the animated characters.
And so, we
Marc Beckman: cool.
Chris M. Williams: um, the biggest animated character is a character named Combo Panda, that's kind of like Ryan's, uh, best friend in this animated world, and
Marc Beckman: Yeah. Yeah.
Chris M. Williams: character, but when I take that anime, when I took, like, a guy and put him in a panda suit, a cowboy panda suit, and put him in a movie theater, like, the kids showed up, you
Marc Beckman: Yeah,
Chris M. Williams: it's
Marc Beckman: that's great. All right. All right. All right. All
Chris M. Williams: that's, that's, I think we're starting to, to feel good about that.
Marc Beckman: So, from your space, I mean, it's nice that Ryan's parents seem to be very level headed, kind people. Um, it looks like they're really trying to do what's in the greatest interest, not just for their family, but they seem like very good commercial partners, too.
But you're always dealing with, you know, Um, parents, you're dealing with a lot of situations of, you know, quick fame, they think they know everything, they think they might know the industry better than you do. What was like the biggest nightmare scenario from a parent that you've experienced so far?
Chris M. Williams: Fortunately, I'd say it, it usually happens before we become official partners with them, Yeah. all for joining us today, and we, hope to see you all again soon. means, do they want to do right by their own kids?
If there's kids, not all of our partners have kids, but if there's kids, do right by your kids, and do right by the kids in the audience. If you start there, and we feel like really good that that's where they start, we can teach them the rest. We create a creator handbook, we teach them how to do that. We inform them how to like, how long should a kid be sho you know, be shooting in front of a camera?
How How do you set aside money? How do you do proper disclosures? All the things, right? as they start there. So before, I did have one family where I literally, I still would say, this is a brand that I wish I had. Like, oh my God, the opportunity with this
Marc Beckman: They're in the marketplace now,
okay, I and it's successful, it's working,
Chris M. Williams: partnered with us.
Marc Beckman: uh, of
course.
Chris M. Williams: walked away. and honestly, it was a simple thing. It was like,
this
was like maybe like two days, we'd had like dinner with them, and then a big meeting at the office, and it was a bunch of kids, it was like five kids, one of my close friends was a huge fan. His kids were a huge fan from YouTube, and I'm like, hey, can you, you do me a favor and just like, can we make a little video Where your kids say hi to so and so, where the kids say hi, and the dad goes, into a frickin military man and was like, line up kids, get in a straight line.
And I'm like, oh no, like, this is not good.
Marc Beckman: think I actually think I know who you're talking about because I think my daughter watches
this this.
Chris M. Williams: very possible, but I, I, and they're amazing performers. Like I,
Marc Beckman: I, know.
Chris M. Williams: want to take anything away from the content they
Marc Beckman: I know. I know. Yep.
Chris M. Williams: been quite good with their business. Not as good as I think they would
Marc Beckman: But it was that moment where you said like, Oh, they don't share my core values. They don't share my, my organization's core values, and we don't want to be involved.
Chris M. Williams: Yeah, this isn't going to work.
Marc Beckman: That's so good.
I'm so proud of you. I mean, for me from an arm's distance, It's tough to do that though. It's tough to show that restraint and like basically you're, you're, you're allowing for money to, to sit on the table.
It's great restraint, it.
great integrity. Now you've always been a person filled with integrity and I love that, Chris.
Chris M. Williams: Thank Um, you've given us a lot of time. I, I just have two more questions
Marc Beckman: for you. Okay, the first one is this. Let's go all the way back to the beginning of the conversation where you mentioned that you have a personal relationship with our nation's vice president. I'm curious, is Kamala set, uh, is she ready to be the next president?
Chris M. Williams: I want to make sure I characterize, I've known her for a very long time. I wouldn't characterize like being close or having some sort of day to day relationship with her, unless she did, she was running for senate, she did call the house directly herself. But
Marc Beckman: Okay.
Chris M. Williams: um, I've always been a big believer in Kamala, so I, I, you know, we've known her since she was the DA of San Francisco, we had the good fortune to meet her at like a, a birthday party, and we have mutual friends, the, the Hublins, Chrisette who, like, are very much, um, uh, her besties, um, um, I'm, I've been Bye.
So, um, blown away by her ability to inspire just in the last 30
Marc Beckman: she
Chris M. Williams: like, I've,
Marc Beckman: galvanized. It's incredible, actually.
Chris M. Williams: had.
Marc Beckman: I'm sorry.
Chris M. Williams: I'd say she had a gear that I didn't realize she had, even Yeah. Like, there was this gear that I was like, wow. This is, like you were saving this gear for like, To be president, I was like, so I've just been blown away at that gear, especially that it's, at the end of the day, you have to be able to inspire people at scale, and I think she is firmly doing that right now in a way that I, uh, I knew she was inspiring, but this is like a whole new gear, and I, I, I've, I've been incredibly impressed and feel really inspired by it.
Thank you. Really good about it.
Marc Beckman: Chris, every one of my guests ends the show in the same way with me. Basically what I do is I leverage the show's name, Some Future Day, I start a sentence and I allow for them to finish. Are you game?
Chris M. Williams: I'm typically game for, um, just about anything.
Marc Beckman: So in Some Future Day, the creator economy will become.
Chris M. Williams: The entire entertainment and media economy. Like, I truly believe that with the tools and access. To audiences that people with desire and skill to create and entertain have, that there will be nothing outside of the creator economy, like in terms of entertainment and media, that will be that entire economy.
Like I really do believe that.
Marc Beckman: so what will go away? Will we see like the traditional houses, um, like the legacy media? Will they all disappear?
Chris M. Williams: No, to imagine, but in 10 years from now,
no, I don't. I think there will still be a layer of support that needs to exist, but that they will become more like Pocket Watch than Pocket Watch becomes like them.
Marc Beckman: that's cool. I hope that comes true, Chris.
Thank you so much for, um, all of your time and your sage wisdom and, and insight. Is there anything else that you'd like to add before we, we shut this down?
Chris M. Williams: no, just that it's been an incredibly engaging conversation. I love talking about the future. I love feeling inspired. I love trying to, you know, make educated guesses about where the future is going to lead us. And sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm not, but I sure love the activity of talking about it and then skating to where the puck is and doing something about it and investing in it.
Marc Beckman: You've always been an awesome person and I'm so proud of you. Congratulations with all of your success, including your beautiful family. And thank you for joining me today on Some Future Day.
Chris M. Williams: my pleasure, Marc. Any, any time. You're the best.