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Super Fan Rachel and First Time Watcher Matt make their way episode by episode through the groundbreaking 1990's Canadian vampire cop television show, Forever Knight.
Hi. I'm Rachel.
Matt:I'm Matt.
Fred:And I'm Fred.
Rachel:And this is Come in, 81 kilo.
Rachel:A forever night podcast.
Rachel:I haven't gotten to use my button in a while because we finished. Alright. So we're talking to Fred Molen. Right?
Matt:Molen. Molen.
Rachel:Molen. Molen. Okay. Thank you. Fred Molen, who I mean, if you're listening to this podcast, you know exactly who he is, but the music guy for Forever Night, who very generously agreed to be on our podcast.
Rachel:So thank you for coming on.
Matt:My pleasure.
Rachel:So I
Rachel:have some questions which we will go by, but, also, we might just go rogue. So we'll just see how this goes.
Fred:It sounds great. Sounds good.
Rachel:You're our first interview, Fred. So
Rachel:Alright. For a forever night. For forever night.
Rachel:Yeah. We do some for other other podcasts. But, okay, we're dealing with a cat, so he doesn't interrupt our recording.
Fred:Oh, no. I I love kitties. It's okay.
Rachel:So you're in Nashville?
Matt:I am. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. Do you like that? What do you think? Better than Toronto or just
Fred:Oh, you know, I mean, when I left TV and film scoring in 2001, which was a decision I had made to, because I had been burnt to a crisp, I missed making records as a record producer, which I had started doing, in my early part of my career, and I felt Nashville was the only place left, to do that with live musicians in the studio. And I loved producing other artists and making them sound good. So I moved here in 2001, changed my life again, and and, I love Nashville because of the musicians and the studios and the life here. Yeah.
Rachel:Nice. Yeah. My niece actually has a. She's 19, so her boyfriend just moved to Nashville to make it.
Rachel:He's a drummer in a band.
Rachel:So I thought, well, you know what? At 19, you should do it. Just go.
Fred:It's it's really on so many levels. It's there's nothing like Nashville. It's it's, you know, it is literally, we're all musicians and singers and everyone. We all gather here, although it has grown so exponentially over the past 7 years that it's much more of a huge city now than it ever was. But I still love making my records here.
Fred:It's it's magical.
Rachel:Nice. Yeah. I was, watching an interview you did, I think, about 7 years ago where you were saying you do quite a bit of, there's only 3 record labels left, so you do quite a bit of independent record producing?
Fred:Yeah. I mean, I work I work for both lay you know, both 4 or there's really 4 labels left. But Okay. But I'll be in but there's a lot of, you know, a lot of smaller labels and a lot of independent, artists that I produce. Yeah.
Rachel:So how did you get your start just in general? Like, how did Fred start Fred's life?
Fred:Well, you know, I grew up in, Merrick, Long Island, which is in the South Shore of Long Island. And, you know, my musical life started really when the Beatles played Ed Sullivan in 1964, and I was 11 years old and I sort of realized, because I had been a musical little kid, but I realized I wanted to get a guitar and learn how to sing songs and write songs and try to get girls. So so my, my life changed literally like many, many of my brother and sisterhood, many people in that situation changed. And we saw a direction to to go, and my direction, even though it did get sort of changed here and there, was always musical. And so, initially, I started as a singer songwriter, had I had bands, I quit school when I was 16 to pursue music more seriously, and then wound up in Toronto at age 17.
Fred:Again, making a life in music as a musician and singer songwriter. And, and soon after, I think around 1973, so I've been in Toronto probably for a year or so, I was asked I was playing a lot of club gigs as a singer songwriter, and I got asked to produce a demo, for an artist named Dan Hill, who I was playing a lot of gigs alongside of. And I was like, well, yeah, I can I can produce this? You know, I mean, I knew a lot about records, but I didn't have any experience as a producer. So we produced a little demo.
Fred:The demo turned into a record deal. And very shortly after, we had hits in Canada, and my whole career changed because I started to like my life behind the camera, as opposed to having to be an artist. I like being the person who made artists sound good. And so I liked my work as a musician and an arranger. And a producer of a producer, record producer is really a director.
Fred:And I sort of liked that. And next thing you know, we had hits in Canada and then, you know, I sort of my life changed and I did other things as well. But, in 1977 into 78, we had a song that we produced called Sometimes When We Touch, which
Rachel:I have heard of that 1.
Fred:Well, I think it is actually 1 of, the I think of the top 200 songs of airplay. So Oh, wow. So, we were very fortunate. We had a huge hit and I was very young and, that catapulted me to LA for a couple of years to produce for Clive Davis. And, I'm just gonna give you a very quick recap and then, move back to Toronto, which had been my adopted home, and, I became a Canadian early on, and so I was a dual citizen.
Fred:And, my wife and I, at that point, we moved back in 81. We had our children 84 and 87. And between 81 and 83, 84, my career as a record producer wasn't doing so well, but I started to get some work as a TV and film composer. And I had never wanted to do that. But I started, you know, I needed to make a living, so I started to do it.
Fred:And, literally by 85, my work as a record producer was gone. And I was becoming a full time TV and film composer. And then in 87, I landed some big gigs, on the Friday 13th TV series for Paramount and my secret identity for Universal, and the new Gidget for for Columbia. And then, I you tell me, what was the 1st year of Forever Night? What was that?
Rachel:1992.
Fred:Okay. And then by that time, I was considered 1 of Canada's most successful TV and film composers, but because I was an American as well as a Canadian, I was able to sort of really work in both places and also qualify for Canadian content. So, all those years led me to, 1 of my favorite series to score, which was forever night.
Rachel:Well, we're glad you did.
Fred:Me too.
Rachel:So you wrote, and I always found this interesting, some pop songs for forever night, the, like, Black Rose, why did they all just leave me? Like, I haven't like, I don't know all 7. They just popped out of my head. There
Fred:were many. Uh-uh, The Night Falls My Name.
Rachel:Yes. Yeah.
Fred:Touch the Night, dark side of the glass. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel:Did you write those early on, or were those written? No. No.
Matt:Those were those were all written, for the show.
Rachel:Okay. I mean, as they popped up in the episodes or did you were you like, here's, like, a catalog of pop music we can use?
Matt:No. No. I I wrote all of those songs with Stan Meisner for the show.
Rachel:Okay. I've always wondered if you, like were you like here's, here's, like, 7 songs we can sample for the next 4 years.
Matt:No. No. No. I mean, basically, you know, when we saw the the, that we would need music for the the Raven, you know, because of my again, my background is a songwriter, record producer, and everything. So it's very easy for me.
Matt:And, what I would do because I was so busy, I was doing 3 TV series at once.
Rachel:Wow.
Matt:So, and by the way, I don't have people who did my work for me. I did everything myself. So, I would call Stan Meisner who's a dear friend and a great hold on, song collaboratively.
Rachel:Who is at the front door?
Matt:Who is at the front door? Let's find out. No one's at my front door. Hold on. Where were we?
Matt:We were talking about Stan. So Stan Meisner and I, we're great friends. I produced his first solo album, and then we became great, song collaborators because I loved writing lyrics, and and, he was really good with melodies and chords, as well as producing demos. So when I was so busy in in those years, when we saw The Raven, when I saw The Raven, I realized I've gotta create sort of a gothic vibe, you know, sort of droney mysterious rock song, landscape for The Raven. And so, I would start to write lyrics, I would send them to Stan.
Matt:And again, I was so busy that I would just send them by I think I would fax it to him, even though he was, you know, he was only, you know, 25 minutes away in Toronto.
Rachel:Yeah.
Matt:And then he'd write the music and do the demo, and then we hire a singer. And, while I was scoring things, he'd be doing the production on those demos. And, and so things like the night calls my name or touch the night or dark side of the glass, or, what else was there?
Rachel:Heart of darkness, I think.
Matt:Yeah. Heart of darkness.
Rachel:And we use Rose.
Matt:We yeah. Black Rose. So we use Lori Yates, who was a local, rock singer in town. And we used a gal named Molly Johnson, who was a great sort of rock and jazz singer. And, you know, we just gave them the direction, you know, Stan produced those demos and masters saying, you know, make them sort of, you know, more mysterious.
Matt:And so, you know, we would get those songs done, and I would deliver those along with my score, and, but they were written for the Raven.
Rachel:I mean, I've
Rachel:always thought that was such
Rachel:a stroke of genius because then you don't have to deal with licensing rights in perpetuity.
Matt:You know, the nice part was, they were not part of my contract, so I did license them. Oh. But but we did license them. At some point, we licensed them in perpetuity. Yep.
Rachel:Yeah. So how did you end up working on forever night? Like, what what steps led you to forever night?
Matt:Well, I'm gonna tell you a great story. Okay.
Rachel:I'm here for it.
Matt:And, and I and if you have the time, I'll tell you.
Rachel:Oh, yeah. We have plenty of time.
Matt:Alright. Good. I had been extremely busy and very successful in those years as a TV and film composer. My life had changed substantially and I even though I never felt that I was the right guy, I felt like I I, you know, did a really good job because I worked hard and I was trying to make a lot of money for me and my family. And so from the years from, you know, 86 till about 2, 001, I was nonstop with an occasional foray into record production, but, you know, 80% of what I did were nonstop TV and film score.
Matt:I had an agent in LA, and, you said the 1st year was 92?
Rachel:Yeah.
Matt:So probably sometime in 91, I got a call from my agent who had who passed away a few years later, from AIDS, sadly. Lovely guy, Wayne Burgos. And, I'm in the middle of being very busy, and, you know, sort of at my peak, so to speak, of TV and film score. And he called and said, listen. There's a really exciting series that I'd love you to pitch on.
Matt:He says it's gonna be 1 of these CBS late night shows. And, I had already gotten 1 of them, which was sweating bullets, which was a detective series in the tropics. And, but he said, I think you'd be great for this 1. It's it's about a vampire cop. And I said, well, this is I I do a lot of this.
Matt:I'm happy to audition for this. And he said and on top of it, he said, it's the company you've worked for, which is, a company that did a series called Beyond Reality, which I did for 2 years for USA Network, which was about paranormal psychologists who try to solve cases. And I love that. Sure. And the people involved were a Toronto based company called 4 Point.
Matt:And, and Wayne said, well, they're involved in this in this series. I said, well and on top of it, it was for CBS, which by the way, means that the royalties I'd be getting for airplay were about 10 times what regular cable would have been or something.
Rachel:Oh, wow.
Matt:So it was a real big win. Yeah. And it was also for for Columbia TriStar. So I'm like, man, I'm in, you know, what do I gotta do? And he said, well, you gotta read the thing.
Matt:And I read the thing and they wanted some score pieces and a, a theme demo. And I did a really cool theme demo and some good score pieces, and sent them in through Wayne to my agent in LA. And, then I found out through John Slann and and Richard Borchiver, who were the Canadian producers, who I had a relationship with. And they said, listen, we have bad news for you. We said, we pitched you very hard.
Matt:We said, you're the guy to do this. And the guy who created the show from LA, Jim Parriot, really, he didn't like that. And he said, I'm gonna pick the the composer. I don't need you to tell me who the composer is. And these guys called me and said, I don't think you have a chance because we can't push back against him.
Matt:He's very adamant that, you know, just because you're our guy doesn't mean shit to him. Yeah. So that was you know, I was sort of disappointed, but, you know, I was very busy, but I'm still disappointed. And I called Wayne, my agent, and I said, listen, I don't think this guy's gonna even listen to my stuff, so I'm not even gonna put it in. And Wayne said, Fred, I believe in you.
Matt:No matter what they're telling you, finish the demo and get it to the the the company. And so I finished the demo because I hadn't put I hadn't actually sent it to them yet. And after Wayne gave me a pep talk, I sent it to them. I didn't hear anything for about a week and a half. And then my friend, Stan Meisner, who I wrote the songs with, called to say, hey, my friend Clive was at the Sutton Place Hotel in Toronto, which at that point was like the real cool hang for all the people who were making TV and film in Canada, and they'd all wind up in the bar there.
Matt:And he said, Clive was talking to someone at the bar who's doing a vampire cock show. And Clive told me when he asked who's doing the music, the guy said this guy Fred Mullen. So this is all now broken telephone as far as I'm concerned. It's like a rumor, you know? Yeah.
Matt:Right. But, obviously, I got a little excited. You know? Well, it turned out to be true. The next day, I got a phone call from, Richard Borcherber at at, 4 Point, at Paragon at that point.
Matt:They called himself Paragon at that point, at Paragon. And Richard said, Jim Parriot wants to meet with you. He loved your demo. So I give Jim so much credit, because he was so dead set against me. But when he heard my stuff, he said, this is the right guy.
Rachel:Yeah. That's hard to do to go back from never. I am not that guy. And then, like, alright. Well, he actually Exactly.
Rachel:Exactly. Yeah.
Matt:For for him to go to, I don't want you to tell me who to use, and getting an attitude to basically, you're right. He's great, which is what they said he said. And so all of a sudden now I'm doing this series. And Jim and I became great friends, and still to this day are great friends. And, it was 3 seasons of of episodes, that are the probably, my most favorite, years of scoring television and film.
Matt:I loved everyone involved. I became great friends with many, including Gare, and, it was just magical, it was a magical combination. It was hard work, but it was a magical combination.
Rachel:So what resemblance did the theme that you sent when you sent your pitch theme actually, how much of that ended up in the actual theme for the show?
Matt:All of it. I actually, I did the demo, and, Jim said, I like it the way it is.
Rachel:Well, that's good.
Matt:So, actually, all all all I did was remix it. You know?
Rachel:Oh, nice. I mean, how did you end up at that? Like, we love the theme, but how did you end up there? You heard Vampire Cop, and you were like, okay. I've got it.
Rachel:I mean, I I think I must
Matt:have seen some footage or read a script or something, but
Rachel:Oh, okay.
Matt:I I just I thought a bombastic, bottom, bottom bottom Yeah. Might be fun, you know, and and I just built on that.
Rachel:And it works so well it works so well with the voice over because it gives Which
Matt:which I didn't know was gonna happen, but but I but I like the voice over.
Rachel:Yeah. So was it different working on the show from season to season because they ended up moving around so much?
Matt:Well, you know, we were sort of an orphan, you know, we we we lost the CBS thing, and then, USA picked picked us up and then but it was it was all, like, we didn't know if we were gonna be renewed every year, you know, instead of it was a little bit disconcerting, but I think we had such a united front as a team that I don't really remember anything except the the fun of it.
Rachel:Yeah. Did, so did you create all the musical elements yourself? So you sent me some tapes, and they have the unscored versions, which were very interesting to watch, by the way. The ones that were not taped over with, anime, Turner classic movies.
Matt:I I cannot control my kids because they were they were doing shit. You know?
Rachel:You know what? I don't mind because there's so many nineties commercials, and the fun of watching the nineties,
Rachel:I was like, you know what? I can't be mad because
Matt:What I'm worried about is that my 13 son your your old son was taping porn.
Rachel:Well, I will let you know. Yeah. So far, anime is,
Rachel:the chief
Matt:Well, listen. My my son lives in Tokyo because of that obsession. So
Rachel:Oh, that's that's interesting. I mean Yeah. It was 1 I had never seen, so I am actually may watch it on my own. There you go.
Matt:Yeah. I'm sorry. So you're saying that I I'm what was the question? Did I create
Rachel:Yeah. We got off track. So I you gave me the 1. So what I guess you were trying to describe it to me. They sent you the unscored tapes, and then you scored them and, I guess, gave them time codes?
Matt:Well, I mean, you know, for all the TV series I did in movies, you you get a visual time code Yeah. And and and hopefully a locked edit of the movie or TV series. And, you know, the way I would write, I would be staring into my monitor, with my keyboard, and I'd be improvising to the picture, and then I roll it back and I improvise some more, then I'd lay something down, then I'd lay something else down, and eventually I'd be, you know, overdubbing and overdubbing and layering all these different things until I had the right combination of sounds and synths and samples. And then, at night, my my crew would come in and take all the multitrack, ideas I had, not ideas, the multitrack scoring I did, put them on to a 24 track tape, and then the next day I would go, while they worked all through the night, then the next day I would go and mix the show with my music engineer, combining all the tape all the tracks that we had, that I had written, which they had put to tape. So I I did I played every, instrument, every sound, except for maybe occasionally electric guitar lead or something, which I had Sam do.
Rachel:That's really well, I because That's impressive. Yeah. That was a question later on which is, like, this is before digital, so what did you do?
Matt:Well, it it wasn't before digital, because a lot of the synthetics I was using were digital samplers and stuff. But it was certainly before, digital, computer recording like Pro Tools. So we we did, like I said, I would go to sleep, and I have my studio in my house, and my family and I would go to sleep and, my 2 guys would come in to my studio and they would take all of my tracks, lay them on, to a 24 track tape, audio, you know, analog tape and then I'd go the next day and we'd those onto, you know, some sort of digital, tape, which then will get delivered to the film mix and the music elements were the ones that I would deliver. But, you know, I I was, you know, I'm AAA drummer and acoustic guitar and electric guitar player who had to become a proficient keyboard player and also a proficient person with synths and samplers so that I could really do what this job was. I mean, and again, I want both of you to know, I had no interest whatsoever in being a TV and film composer, especially, 1 who had to play everything themselves, you know.
Matt:But it was really about the fact that I needed to make a good living and the opportunities were given to me and I ran with them.
Rachel:Yeah. And And you're good at it. Yeah. I mean, I feel like
Rachel:a lot of people end up in unusual places in their profession that way just sort of chasing the rabbit hole of, okay. Here's my next opportunity. And then maybe sometimes you get so far down where you're like, you know what? Maybe I didn't love this direction, which I guess you did in 2001. And then Right.
Rachel:You know, do
Matt:You know, I I had I had done it for so long, so intensely on my own, from 85 till 2, 001 that I was so done.
Rachel:Yeah. Especially if it's, like, in your office, in your house. Like, you never Yeah.
Matt:I mean, but I mean, it it's analogous to, a fastball major league fastball pitcher, hitting a certain age and realizing they don't have their fastball anymore. Yeah. And I'm like, you know what? I wanna go back to making records. You know?
Matt:So
Rachel:Yeah. And I'm I feel like
Rachel:you hit a really good moment in television.
Matt:I I think I did. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. I mean, obviously, we love nineties TV. That's pretty much all we do.
Rachel:Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. Yeah. Just a good moment for for synthesizer score for kind of that I don't know. The the thing we love about Forever Night is that kind of, like, wild west. Like, there's obviously a bunch of people who love this show, who are all working on it, and not this major studio where it's just a sea of people who are all contributing.
Rachel:Alright. So your favorite episode to score or maybe at this point, just an episode that stood out so much, you still remember it?
Matt:You know what? Here's the thing, Rachel and Matt, III have to tell you that I did so much work in those years that my memory of each episode is very cloudy because, literally, we're talking 3 out 3 days a week.
Rachel:Yeah.
Matt:I would write that score and record it and play all the instruments and go to the next show or whatever series I was doing, and it just it's impossible to remember, But there were highlights, of course, you know.
Rachel:Mhmm.
Matt:I remember once 1 piece of score I wrote for an episode called Avenging Angel. And I remember I really loved it because it was just a 3 minute piece, and I begged them to turn the sound effects off when they mixed it, and just make it a surreal musical and visual moment. So I love that. I have very strong memories of, the last episode because there was so much emotion. Emotion from the team, and by the way, again, we were all we became a great team of people.
Matt:I would go to the set all the time, and we would hang and have a lovely, lovely life, as team members together. And, and that was unusual because a lot of the TV series I did, I would never spend any time on on the set. But with Forever Night and Friday 13th series, I was on the set a lot. And, and we really became a great team on both of those series. But I remember last night, which was the last episode, first of all, I remember the pressure that I had to write the final score piece, which was, I guess, the death of Nick.
Rachel:Yeah. And Allegedly.
Matt:You know, allegedly. Well, we were hoping it was gonna be allegedly, but apparently it was, you know. Because in at that point, we were thinking, oh my god, you know, it'll be a dream sequence and we'll come back next season or something.
Rachel:Yeah.
Matt:But it never did. So, the pressure that I had on myself was a lot, but I remember writing the last cue and really being proud of it. Like, really saying, you know, I because I think I suck on so many levels compared compared to the great TV and film composers like John Williams and, you know, Jerry Goldsmith and Dave Gruzin and, you know, Thomas Newman and all these you know, I'm nothing. I'm just a I'm just a period on a page, you know. But I felt like I did a really good job for the people I worked for.
Matt:But I felt like that last cue on on last night was 1 of my best cues. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. I think Ashes to Ashes in last night are some of my favorite episodes. So
Matt:Ashes had that had a lot of music. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. Yeah. That was a that's 1 of my favorite episodes. I was so excited when we got Matt had no idea how it was going to end. I managed to keep it a secret for 2 years.
Matt:See, I I don't I don't remember a thing about the episode, but I remember there was a lot of music.
Rachel:Ironically, my next question is about avenging angel, so that's really funny. I was like, Avenging Angel is the the scene you're talking about is close to the end, and it's where he's driving.
Matt:Correct.
Rachel:And we just get the music because it's this moment where he's kind of letting someone
Matt:Yes.
Rachel:Do something illegal. Yes. And we talk about it quite a bit in the episode that we did on Avenging Angel. But what it led me to ask was how much creative control did you have over over the score and
Matt:Well, I I think 1 of the nice things, Rachel, is that when you are the composer for a long period of time on a series, once the series gets going, they really just let you do what you do. And and and, they trust you because, you know, they've liked what you've done. And after a while, you've sort of set a style instead of thing. And and, and so once Forever Knight went into the 3rd or 4th episode, no 1 listened to a thing I did until it was mixed on the floor. So I had complete, creative control.
Rachel:Well, I'm sure that was reassuring. Like, oh, no, no, Fred, you got this. It's okay.
Matt:Well, but that but that's what we would do. You know, when when I would do long term series, once you've got, you know, or not or just any series, once you got past the second or third episode, everyone was busy and they would just say, hey, go do your thing, you know. And and, you know, maybe occasionally someone would call and say, hey, you know, they wanna change that 1 queue, but that, you know, on forever night that never happened, you know.
Rachel:So you kinda answered this already, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Do you still keep in touch with anyone from the show?
Matt:Well, Jim is still a Facebook friend, although I haven't spoken to Jim probably in about 4 or 5 years, but we did keep up a great friendship up until probably a few years before COVID. Same thing with Gare. I I always loved hanging with him in later years, but I haven't spoken to him in about 5 years as well. And as far as the rest of the team and and actors, you know, some of their Facebook friends of mine and we keep in touch a little bit. But, I would say, you know, at the moment, no.
Matt:Not not not keeping in close touch.
Rachel:Yeah. I mean, it's been 30 years. So
Matt:But, you know, but I really literally I I miss them. I love them. They're great.
Rachel:We just met Gar, last year. We went up to Stratford and saw a play that he was in Yep. And waited outside the door. I lost my mind, and I don't actually remember what I said to him, but Matt was there, and he, he says that we did okay. Well like, I have a podcast.
Rachel:Like, it was awful, but it's fine. It's fine.
Matt:Well, he's he's just a great guy.
Rachel:Yeah. He was very nice. And we actually met Kathy. We drove down to Orlando and saw her at a convention in
Matt:Kathy Disher?
Rachel:Yeah. Catherine Disher. Doing? She was very, very lovely. Like, I really enjoyed meeting her, and she lives in Toronto now.
Rachel:And she's done so much work for the Hallmark Channel, and I'm just I, like, I love to see people stay successful. And we just met John John Kapiolos in New Jersey. So we've we've been on a forever night tour. I haven't looked through.
Matt:John and I got along famously. I loved, Nigel. Nigel was great fun. He was terrific to to to hang with. I loved them all.
Matt:I'm gonna say, I mean, it really was that's what I'm saying. I probably had more it was more of a positive experience on that series than any series I ever did, and, and I just, I just loved I loved being appreciated by them, and I appreciated them so much.
Rachel:So I was poking around, and I found an interview from 1997 that you did. And I found 1 line really interesting where you're talking about how there was a complete lack of merchandise for the show, like merchandise and advertising. And so my question was, if you could have 1 piece like, if you could have them make 1 piece of merchandise from the show, what would it be?
Matt:Oh, I don't I I don't even know. No. I don't know. I have to think about you know, I've I I actually, you know, sort of I have a fund for my kids because even though they're 40 and 37, my daughter lives in LA now with her 2 kids and her husband and, you know, frankly, you know, they can use some extra money so I constantly sell off stuff and give it to them. And I I had some merch, man.
Matt:I had well, I had crew merchandise.
Rachel:Yeah.
Matt:Like, I had, you know, jackets and hats and t shirts and sweatshirts and that kind of stuff. So I I, you know but I know I I don't need anything and didn't I can't think of it.
Rachel:Well, I just thought it'd be fun to ask.
Rachel:Yeah. No.
Matt:I'm it's a good question. Yeah.
Rachel:Rachel's wearing a shirt she designed.
Rachel:My CERK. You probably can't see it. Home of the Nightcrawler.
Matt:Yeah. That's the radio station. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. We have some some this isn't a plug for my merchandise, but we do have some.
Matt:And, obviously, you've seen the blooper reels and everything. Right? So yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. Yeah. You can find them online. So I've I've seen a couple. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. You've moved on and done some other stuff, including for Disney. What was it like working for Disney?
Matt:Well, I didn't work for Disney as a TV and film composer. Well, that's not true. I did a series in 2, 000, before I left, scoring called in a heartbeat for the Disney Channel. It was a terrible series. I hated it.
Matt:And it'll never be seen again. It was just a piece of Dreck. You know, I had, before I left TV and film score, I had gotten a call, from my friend Jay Landry, who I'd worked with before in record in the record side of things. And he was now the head of Disney's, record label for children. And he said, would you do an instrumental lullaby album for Disney records?
Matt:And I was like, of course. You know? I'll squeeze it in, and I and I took well known Disney songs as well as some other songs and turned them into very, very, very, you know, just almost meditative versions, piano and strings, as an album to put little children to bed. And it was called the Disney Lullaby album, and it sold over a 1000000 copies so far.
Rachel:Wow.
Matt:And so I became Disney's most, successful instrumental lullaby artist. I did I did 6 different albums for Disney for lullabies. But then in, 2000 2006, I got an offer to run the label as the a and r person for Walt Disney records. And so for a year and a half, I did run the label in Burbank and moved there and did that, as well as I did many other albums for Disney of all different kinds of things. But again, this was all my this is post scoring.
Matt:I mean, I didn't
Rachel:go back. Yeah.
Matt:I never went back to film scoring after that, after 90 after about 2, 001. Yeah.
Rachel:You're just done?
Matt:Yeah. I mean, it was really I I walked away going, I love making records. I love being with other people and working as a team. And I had decided after 16, 17 years of lonely deadlines, doing everything myself that, I was burnt to a crisp.
Rachel:Yeah. So what do you if we there was a reboot or a reimagining of forever night, what do you think that would look like?
Matt:Well, I mean, boy, that's a great question. I mean, are you thinking maybe that the same people are in it, but they play older characters, or are you saying new people?
Rachel:Well, my joke is always that Garrett comes back and plays Lacroix, and then we get a young guy for the
Rachel:the Nick character.
Matt:Well, I mean I mean, that would be a good way to look at it. I mean, yeah, that that maybe, that maybe, you know, Ger does become sort of the, you know, the grandfather vampire. And and and either he leads them or he tries to be destructive. And, and then we have new a new Nick, so to speak.
Rachel:Yeah. I mean, that's the end of my questions for you. Was, really, my last 1 was, in the interview from 1997, you said you thought last night was a good ending for the show. 30 years on, do you still feel the same way?
Matt:Well, you know, in retrospect, I think it's a great ending for the show because it never came never came back, so we
Rachel:because it is the Yeah.
Matt:We we sort of we put the stake in the heart a lot
Rachel:of closure.
Matt:Speak, and and it was a pretty severe stake in the heart. So, I would have preferred it not to have been that way. Sure.
Rachel:Well, thank you, Fred, for coming and talking to us.
Matt:Oh my god. It's my pleasure. I mean, I I get such a kick out of, even remembering this stuff. It was such a great time.
Rachel:Yeah. I mean, obviously, it's still sticking around because somebody made a podcast about it. We did.
Rachel:Us. Just us. Exactly.
Matt:No. I'm you know what, I'm I'm very, it means it means a lot to me that that, this particular show gets, has such loyal fans and and people who have have, have such a great attachment to it. Yeah.
Rachel:I just feel like, I wish whoever owned the rights would give it some love. Like, it feels like an abandoned property, and I hate that for it.
Matt:Yeah.
Rachel:Like, I wish we could get an HD release or, you know, literally any like, a DVD we could buy would be great.
Rachel:Or even just streaming season 3.
Matt:Yeah. Well, so so the DVDs aren't available anymore?
Rachel:No. The ones that Sony Tri Star released were discontinued, and there's 1 company that releases, like, a full box set, Mill Creek, I think.
Rachel:Yeah, man.
Rachel:And they're kind of the, like, all where all TV shows go to die, ones where, like, they're all in cardboard and, anyway. So it's just You know,
Matt:III think that I think you're right. You know, sadly, we I think we really were an orphan, on many levels. But you never know. I mean, again, there there's, you know, there's there's always a possibility that they'll realize they had some some serious mojo on this show, and and and they'll they'll show it some love.
Rachel:Yeah. That would be nice because I feel like this is a thing that didn't get done again. Yeah. Like, forever night didn't get done. Like, a lot of TV shows, you know, they pop up cyclically, you know, every 15 years.
Rachel:Oh, that's like that up of that TV show.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel:And a lot of people reference Angel or Moonlight, but I I don't think they're the same. Like, I don't lump them together. It feels like forever night's its own thing.
Matt:I think we were I think we had a very unique show, and I think it was, it you know, there's no question. It was a cult item, but I think it had a lot of heart and a a lot of, it was a soulful show.
Rachel:Yeah. I we well, we heartily agree. So thank you again, Fred, for coming on. We won't, but I think we've taken 40 minutes of your time. So
Matt:I'm so glad to have done it. I really I get such a kick out of it. Thank you.
Rachel:You're welcome. And, thank you so much for the tapes. I'm, like, super excited to watch all of them.
Matt:I'm I'm delighted someone who would be able to get a kick out of them got them.
Rachel:I did have a question about them. Some of them were labeled as the Glen Warren version?
Matt:Yes.
Rachel:What does that mean?
Matt:Glen Warren was the Canadian production company.
Rachel:Oh, okay.
Matt:Actually, it was the Canadian production facility.
Rachel:Okay.
Matt:And Glenn Warren productions had a a channel called the CFTO and CTV in Canada. So Okay. So they ran forever night, but I think it's a longer episode.
Rachel:Okay. Yeah. The crime time after prime time.
Matt:Yeah. See, I I do remember. See, you're make you're making you're making me remember things. We did we did I did have to add a couple of extra scenes of music for the Canadian versions.
Rachel:Yeah. I think they were, like, 5 ish minutes longer.
Matt:Like, 4, like, 4 minutes longer. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. Because when we were watching it through with Matt, there's a lot of those scenes where, like, Nick appears to have gone back to his his house, and he's in his satin pajamas, but he's, like, on duty. Yeah. And it's the, like, 0 minutes that they just, like, fluffed in. I love it.
Matt:But that's that's the thing. When I was looking through the stuff that he brought me, I was, like, oh, Glenn Warr so these were the Canadian versions. They were longer. Yeah. That's
Rachel:right. Yeah.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. Let's
Matt:Anyway, those were they they were very creative times. I I I'm I'm very fortunate to have had the run on that show. Really do. I feel very fortunate.
Rachel:Well, we'll
Rachel:let you go, Fred, so you can have a good evening. I guess it's probably about 8 there now.
Matt:It's heading towards 8. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. So we have to go rescue my kids there over at grandma's. So Alright.
Matt:Well, listen. I great to meet you both. And, and again, I'm very, very grateful that, you know, people love the show, really.
Rachel:Oh, thank you. Yeah. And we're glad you made it so that we can watch it.
Matt:My pleasure.
Rachel:Oh, I
Rachel:was gonna watch there's 1 episode, Dying for Fame. I'm sorry. You were done and not hearing I'm
Rachel:not done. Okay. Carry
Rachel:on. There's 1 episode called dying for fame, and it's the, like, rock star 1. It's in season 1, and it's played like a music video.
Rachel:Like a music video. Yeah. Kind of thing.
Rachel:I know you were involved in, like, the writing and filming of that, but, like
Matt:Yes.
Rachel:Why?
Matt:Why was I involved?
Rachel:No. No.
Rachel:I mean, like, why
Rachel:why does this episode exist? Like, I I like it just fine, but it's the most it's the oddest episode out of all of them. It doesn't have a real flashback. He has
Matt:a real life. To watch it. Again, you know, you're talking about things I did 30 was it 30 years now?
Rachel:Yeah. Well, you'll watch it, and you'll be like, oh, okay. And it's kind of like the backstory for all of the pop music that's in The Raven because Yeah. Introduces the soundtrack.
Matt:Having to go to the shoots, to oversee the the stuff with the performance stuff. Was wasn't that the 1 that had Dark Side of the Glass?
Rachel:Yeah. It's the 1 where it's the singer, and she's written, like, fan kill or something. And so it's a huge controversy. And so they, of course, they have to go do security even though they're homicide detectives, but it's fine.
Matt:Right.
Rachel:And, they it's it's just an I don't know. It's a I like season 1 because it feels so experimental, and that 1 feels like the most experimental of all the episodes. So I just like, every time I watch it, I'm like, I wanna talk to whoever made these decisions so I know how we got here.
Matt:Yeah. I mean, I just you know, listen. I think when you do, an episodic series, you know, people are constantly coming up with any idea they possibly can. And, I just remember that I was involved in a lot of the shooting of that, and, and I remember having to write Dark Side of the Glass for a montage or something. And,
Rachel:Yeah. Because he
Matt:And, actually, that might that might be my favorite song of the batch. You know?
Rachel:It's a good song. And it gets it gets really showcased in that episode because instead of having a real flashback, we have these scenes where he's, like, watching a life on on, like, CRT TVs. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt:Yeah. I I remember saying to myself, I think we did a really good song here. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. I think that's a good episode. I just Yeah. I always wonder about that. I don't know because it's so different than all the others.
Rachel:Because season 3 gets weird, but it's weird in, like, a, okay. We were trying to be Safeway. This was in, like, a, oh, let's do something cool way.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. Was that the first season? I forget.
Rachel:Yeah. That's season 1. Because is dead, but he shows up in that flashback. Yeah. Because he's dead
Matt:from season 1. I would need you to remind me of everything at this point.
Rachel:Well, it's cool. I know it. It's fine.
Matt:Rich, you know, honestly, I've been in so many so many hours of television score.
Rachel:And Oh, I'm sure they all just blend.
Matt:Yeah. There's not you know, I'm cons constantly being written to by fans saying, remember in episode 10 of Friday 13th when when so and so did that? I'm like, I I don't even know what you're talking about.
Rachel:You know?
Matt:I have no idea. I mean, there might be, like, 5 scenes out of 77 episodes that I remember. You know? Everything else was just, like, you know, the deadlines were psychotic.
Rachel:Right. I'm sure. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel:Well, it's streaming on the Roku channel if you wanna watch it.
Matt:What is?
Rachel:Forever night.
Matt:It is?
Rachel:Yeah. Only season 1 and 2. Season 3 is a different rights holder, so you can never find it. But season 1 is the stream. Wow.
Rachel:So
Matt:what do you mean it's a different what do you mean it's a different rights holder?
Rachel:So season 1 and season 2 are owned by 1 company, and then season 3 is independent. So you can buy all 3 seasons on Apple, but you can only stream season 1 and 2.
Matt:Okay.
Rachel:Yeah.
Matt:Well, I again, III love the fact that people still love the show. It's great.
Rachel:Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. There's a surprisingly lively, fan community still, like Facebook groups and stuff. Yeah. The listserv is still running.
Rachel:Yeah. The email listserv is still running.
Matt:What happened to Deb? What happened to Deb DeShane?
Rachel:We Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel:Really. Like, the monsters the monsters madness and mayhem guy, who I think you were on his podcast. He just had Gare on, and he asked him about Deb, and he didn't know. And he asked Nigel, and Nigel didn't know.
Matt:Really?
Rachel:Yeah. So she just disappeared.
Matt:Well, she was really good in that show.
Rachel:I know. It was a shame that she
Rachel:A travesty.
Rachel:A travesty that she left.
Matt:I'm I'm amazed. I would have thought she would have continued. You know, I know we're just sort of shooting the shit here. I didn't love, you know, the Ben Bass stuff. No,
Rachel:no, we're I
Matt:thought that was really, I thought that was their, you know, and I remember Gare, like, not really being thrilled, you know, because it was sort of like, oh, now you have to have another hunky guy, you know.
Rachel:Yeah. No. We're not kind to Ben Bass.
Matt:Yeah. I so I
Rachel:I mean, we're not kind to Vashon. Like, Ben Bass is, I'm sure, a fine person, but we're not trying to Vashon. Fine person, but
Fred:I Yeah. But I remember saying, I don't love this character that much and and and, you know, but but I, you know, again, but I still was had such a good time that, you know. You have to remember, when I say I had a good time, I worked so hard and so relentlessly, and I was so well appreciated by these people and considered them to be great, friends and great, associates that it made the hard work great.
Rachel:Yeah. It didn't you didn't hate all the long hours.
Matt:I was really lucky. Yeah.
Rachel:Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel:I get that. That makes a lot of sense. Alright. Now we will let you go.
Fred:Have a wonderful night, and I thank you guys so much.