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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. Weβre not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
β’ Why is feminism important today?
β’ What is intersectional feminism?
β’ Can capitalism be ethical?
β’ What does liberation mean?
β’ Equity vs. equality β what's the difference and why does it matter?
β’ What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
β’ What is mutual aid?
β’ How do we engage in collective action?
β’ Can I find safety in community?
β’ What's a feminist approach to ... ?
β’ What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01)
Welcome to Messy Liberation. Let's get started.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:06)
I think we're live on YouTube. β We haven't done a live episode since like the election.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:08)
All right.
Mm no, I think we did one when we did the launch for the coach circle. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:14)
I think that was
Okay, so maybe we've done two. Maybe we've done two. This
is not a common occurrence. If you're listening to this on the podcast player of your choice at another time, hello, you're not live on YouTube with us, but we are recording this episode live. And why are we doing a special live episode when we don't do live episodes that often, Tyana?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:35)
Because this is our one hundredth episode.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:38)
100 episodes. Can you believe it? As somebody who β runs a podcast collective, the Feminist Podcasters Collective, I can say with very much certainty that most podcasts don't make it to 100 episodes. A very small number actually get this far. Because a lot of people realize this is a lot of work and staying consistent is hard. And so they don't make it this far. And so we're here to pat ourselves on the back a little, first of all. Yeah. Good job.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:40)
Ha ha
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:06)
You look beautiful today to
β congratulate ourselves on making you this far because it's hard to do. Can you believe we did it?
Taina Brown she/hers (01:13)
Yeah.
I can't like when you told me our one hundredth episode is coming up. I was like, has it been that long? Like in my mind I was like, we just started last year and you were like, No, that like two years ago.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:25)
Yeah, two years. Which which makes sense. A hundred episodes, that'd be about fifty something a year. And so yeah, we're right at about two years because we did have a couple here and there that we didn't record a week here or a week there. But for the most part, we've been pretty consistent to get to a hundred episodes in two years. That means we're recording more weeks than most weeks, not not every week, but most weeks. So first of all, that's amazing. And we Yeah. I thought maybe we could quickly just share the brief origin story.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:25)
I can't wrap my head around it.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. It is amazing.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:52)
Of how we got here for people who
don't know. And then maybe talk about a little bit of like what we've learned or what we've, you know, our highlights and maybe lowlights. I don't know if we have those β over the last two years of doing the show. But so we started two years ago, I think it was June. So it's been I feel like it was June of twenty twenty four. Crazy to say that. Yeah. And we didn't even know each other. I mean, we knew each other for a while.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:02)
Ha ha ha.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, parasocially.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:21)
Well, no, because we had done a F VO right or no. Maybe we hadn't. I mean maybe it was all at the same time. But we we didn't know each other super well. We knew each other online, we had done some networking together, we had spent time in rooms together online, but not like this much.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:24)
We yeah. Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely not this much.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:41)
And I approached you to say,
Hey, I love having conversations with you. Do you want to do a podcast? cause I would love to keep having conversations with you. And I wasn't sure if you'd say yes. So I'm curious what your thoughts were when I approached you.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:51)
Ye
Yeah, well we had recorded I think two episodes by then of your other podcasts. Yeah. Yeah, I forgot what it was called. Feminist Founders, uh-huh.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:58)
of other shows.
Well we did feminist founders.
But I don't and then I did assigned reading, but that was after this one. So I think we'd only done one practice episode.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:07)
Yeah. No,
no, we did too because I remember after doing the first podcast episode for Feminist Founders, we were in FAO together. And then if my memory serves me right, which it's a 50-50 toss up with my memory, but maybe sixty forty or forty-sixty. But I approached you about doing like a ask a coach.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:24)
That's better than mine.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:32)
kind of like special episode or special like series or something. And so I think we did that.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:33)
Ooh.
You're right.
That was for Substack only, I think. But yes, I think that's right. And so we did you're right. And then we were like, this is fun. Then I asked if you would do like if you wanted to think about doing a regular podcast. And I honestly wasn't sure if you'd say yes. but you did. What made you decide to say yes?
Taina Brown she/hers (03:46)
Mm.
I did.
I think at the time I was what definitely had a lot more energy than I do now, but but I was also just β
In this kind of not like yes man philosophy, but just like in a place where I was kind of like experimenting and just kind of like being open and just kind of throwing things out there to see what would stick. And so when this came up, I was like, well, I like Becky. We have fun talking, we're values aligned.
And this might be fun. This might be fun, right? And and that's one thing that we talked about too, in terms of like before we started, it was like, let's make this as fun as possible. Like obviously it's gonna be some level of work, but how can we make it
as how can we inject as much ease into this as possible, I think, was both of our priorities at the time. And so that was like, okay, this feels doable to me.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:49)
Because we did make the promise to ourselves that if it was too like we would we didn't have to put an episode out every week. Like we weren't gonna make ourselves all these β have all these arbitrary things and that wasn't that was good. Yay. Somebody's watching and I know who it is. That's Mello. Mello said hi. Which said yeah. But it does say there's a couple of people watching, so not just your lovely wife. Hi, Mello. Nice to see you.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hello, thanks for popping in.
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:18)
The link didn't load. β and Kevin's watching. Sorry, I don't know why the River Sign link didn't load. Well, I'm glad you found your way through YouTube. Thank you for those of you watching live and those who'll come back. but I was so glad you said yes. and we did try to make it easy. Do you regret saying yes?
Taina Brown she/hers (05:32)
No, I don't regret saying yes. I think this has been in this context or just in general in life.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:34)
Have you ever regretted saying yes?
No, no, no, about doing the show.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:41)
No, no, I've never regretted saying yes. I even when
There are some because we usually record on Wednesdays and then we post on Mondays. Even when there are like Tuesday nights where I don't sleep at all or or I wake up and I'm just like, fuck, I have like five minutes to like, you know, get myself together before we record. no, I don't regret it because it's like one, it's it's it's in the middle of the week for me, so it feels like this like kind of grounding consistency that like doesn't require a lot of
pre-planning on our end. And so it's like, it's just this thing. it's just a check-in. It feels like just having a conversation with a friend, which that's what it is, basically. Like that's what we had wanted to make this, right? It was just like, let it just be two friends, like just talking about stuff and and discussing the ins and outs of what it looks like to live in this world and and try to maintain this like
liberatory North Star in everything that we do. And that's what it's been. And so even when it might sometimes feel a little like a little bit more work than than other times or than what we intended, it's still a very grounding, almost ritualistic practice for me. Do you regret saying yes?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:54)
I never regret it. I enjoy having conversations with you. Honestly, and this is a problem. If I could have a thousand podcasts with the thousand cool people I know, I would do that because I love what I like about it is that ritualistic piece is the that it because I don't think we would have I know, not I even think, I know we wouldn't have had these min this many conversations. We wouldn't have gotten as close as we've gotten if we hadn't done the show.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:17)
Mm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:19)
And
I love that about this, like that it gave us a place where we have a commitment and a reason. Not that you should have to have a reason to show up and have really interesting conversations about politics, about pop culture, about life, about you know, liberation. β but the truth is, yeah, but the truth is most of us do need that, right? Because we go about our lives. We have so many things going on. And so having this standing call every week and a quote unquote like valid reason to be doing it.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:33)
Yeah.
But it helps.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (07:47)
has made sure we've done that. And I don't I know our relationship wouldn't be what it was if we hadn't had these last two years of doing that. And so I love it and I would love to be able to do that with like every amazing person I know. But also like then I would I don't I there's not enough hours in the day and I would never get anything else done. β but I'm never regret it. I think it's amazing and I love that we get to keep doing it and that slowly but surely we've been building this audience. I'll just quickly do some quick behind the scenes sort of
Taina Brown she/hers (07:53)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:16)
Pulling back the curtain on data kind of piece of what we do. So we're at 100 episodes two years. We started with zero subscribers on our YouTube channel, right? Because we started from nothing when we started all of this. And we, I'm just checking right now because I hadn't looked today. We're at 291. So we have almost 300 subscribers over the last two years. And every month we get a few more, which is amazing. And then we are at 11,000 downloads across all of the platforms.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:29)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Wild.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:45)
Five
five thousand of those are just views on YouTube, which is really amazing. And we have almost 200,000 views of our shorts on YouTube, the short clips that we put out. Yeah. And there's also a lot of shitty comments from people who don't. The last video before this was about the Kevin Hart roast, which of course, when we talk about pop culture stuff, those things tend to get a little more traction because it's talking about something that's in the in the zeitgeist things people are searching for. And we
Taina Brown she/hers (08:50)
Yeah.
That's wild.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:13)
You know, there are some people who think we're we're you know what men I think what a lot of like white privileged men who aren't doing the work like to say. You must be fun at a party. Like you're you know, they think we're no fun and we're boring and we're we don't know what funny is or we don't understand, blah blah blah, or we take everything too seriously.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:26)
Mm-hmm.
Well jokes on that
because I'm not fun at a party and I'm okay with that.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:33)
Actually, I think kind of fun at a party, but I don't like going to a party. But once I'm there, I'm usually okay. But that's pretty funny. You're right. And we don't care that we're not funny at the party. And we don't want to be at your parties anyway, sir. So but yeah, so like we've been, you know, the good news is we kind of divvied up our roles and I mostly take care of YouTube stuff. And so you don't look at that. So you don't see the comments. I try to mostly not look at them. I rare every once in a while I
Taina Brown she/hers (09:37)
Ha ha ha
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (09:59)
interact and I shouldn't, but for the most part, I ignore all the comments too. β and we just kind of let it have its organic growth. And it's been slowly but surely like finding an audience outside of just your lovely wife who watches every episode and is often comments on most of them. Yeah. I watching right now. and thank you. And yeah, but we've been growing and finding an audience of other people that we don't even know. And that like to me is that's just wild to
Taina Brown she/hers (10:11)
She's my stalker. I married my stalker.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:28)
Put something out and to show that when you show up consistently, I think when you're yourself, when you allow yourself to be vulnerable, because we both have shared things, you know, we've gotten honest and open. Like, I think those things, it does find an audience, but you do have to give it time because I think if we had said like, if we don't have a hundred subscribers and, you know, 10,000 downloads in the first month, we wouldn't be doing it.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what I love about really doing anything with you, Becky, is that like we might set some goals and then obviously life happens, the world is a fucking dumpster fire and continues to just blaze and blaze bigger and bigger β over the past several years. And so
When we check in about our goals, we're not just like, we didn't do this. We're like, okay, well, let's just adjust. Let's just adjust as needed, right? Like we don't consider a failure. We just like, okay, well, we tried, we tried our best. We did what we could. And obviously we need to adjust. Like we need to just kind of reorient and and reconfigure and decide what is actually possible within the scope of our like our capacity and our time and things like that. And so
It's been a really this doing this is really generative, but it's also really just I don't it it it just it feels what's the word I'm looking for? Just like
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (11:47)
Therapeutic.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:49)
I you know, without without getting
too like woo-woo or just like sappy, you know what I mean? Like it's it's just such a different way of just like doing things that that you don't s encounter every day that I definitely have not encountered in in a lot of just like my work experience and life experience. And so and I think that's why it continues to feel good. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:11)
I hope so, yeah. β hi
Steph. and I'm glad people are finding their way. Apparently, the Riverside link I shared with everybody isn't working, so that's super awesome. But they're finding their way to YouTube. So thank you for being here on YouTube and watching. We appreciate you. And if you have questions for us, please share. or anything you just want to like throw up a comment that you want us to share, because we're excited to do this live and be able to like interact some. but in the meantime, I will say that yes.
it has felt almost therapeutic for me, right? Because we come and do a lot of like processing. Cause I will often often tell you when we come into something, one or both of us will be like, again, the world's a shit show and we're feeling heavy and I'm angry or I'm sad or whatever the thing is. And almost always I think both of us end up leaving these conversations better for having had them and feeling not like it's not like it's some panacea. It's not like we're leaving saying, the world's great now.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:37)
No.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:01)
But I think we leave feeling a little better, just like a little more. And and I think I hope that people who listen also feel the same way. Right. Because I think that that's it's that reminder of what community does and what relationship does. It's that feeling witnessed, feeling seen and validated. So that like even when I'm saying the world is a shit storm, and I leave still saying it's still a shit storm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:05)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:27)
I don't feel like one, I'm the only one seeing it. So like you lose some that crazy making stuff. And I don't feel I don't feel alone in it. Like I have somebody else that I know cares and supports me. And I think that stuff goes a long way. We have some questions type.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:30)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
β okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:43)
One, which is my favor you know, comes from your wife, because of course. And so she says any favorite episodes or topic that you've talked about, which of course, going back to the it's fifty-fifty whether you'll remember, I can remember last week's episode and that's about it. But I'm curious.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:58)
Well,
I I was actually thinking about this last night as I was thinking about today's recording. I was like, what have been some like not standout moments, but like what are some things that if I remember them, then it obviously made an impression, right? Because my memory is so shitty these days. But I definitely well, and these haven't been published yet, but the everything is political series that's coming up, those were some really amazing conversations with like all
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:01)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:24)
kinds of people like just all across the board. And so I'm really excited to get those out starting next week. and then I think some of my favorite conversations or some like moments that I can remember and think about fondly is β I really liked having the gals from BRB crying on the podcast. Like that was
That was a really just β God, it just felt like a sleepover, like it had like sleepover vibes kind of. And so without being like too cheesy and too like cliche, but β but they just have like a a way of just like just undoing all the fog almost immediately and just like getting right into the heart of the matter. and so that was a good conversation.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (14:49)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:11)
β I really loved having Dr. Julian on to talk about Harry Potter. he was so much fun. I have have and s continue to just like love his content on β on social media and the way that he kind of brings this like pop culture and academic world together β in his classroom and the way he talks about it and and and whatnot. β
I'm trying to think. And then all the people that we just personally know that we've had on the podcast, like it's just been nice to like connect with them in that way outside of like our regular, degular like relationships. You know, like we had Marina and we had Portia and we had Laura and you know, like, and just so many others that we know outside of the podcast that we've had on.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:59)
So funny because you just mentioned Portia and you just said regular dagular. And I just had a call with Portia right before this, and she said regular dagular on that call. And I was like, and I was like, the only other person I've ever heard say that is you. So there we go. which is funny. yeah. it's it's interesting to me that a lot of the ones you mentioned with other people, which I understand because they sort of stand out a little more. But and I appreciate all of those. I especially love that conversation about Harry Potter with Julie and I thought that was
Taina Brown she/hers (16:06)
Ha ha ha.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:23)
really interesting and and f and I loved it. And I also loved watching you fangirl with the BRB gals because I didn't know them much, but you did and it was very it was that was fun. But honestly, I think my favorite episodes are just where we talk about the real life shit and work through something. And you know, you mentioned like what you like working about like working with me in this β and I will say that I feel so blessed because I get to like I feel like in a way and
Taina Brown she/hers (16:43)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:50)
We should always pay people for their labor, but I should owe you a million dollars in like the amazing labor that I feel like you give every week listening and and and conversing with me about things because I learn from you every week. I feel like every week I'm learning something. And I've been talking about my book lately. For anybody who doesn't know, it's called Liberate Your Business. and I keep telling people when about this idea of my book
Taina Brown she/hers (17:08)
Becky has a bug!
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:15)
And the perfectionism piece where you're featured in the in the QA in that in that section. And one of the reasons the book happened is because I finally was able to let go of this idea that it had to be the book. And honestly, you're the person who's helped me the most with that. Like the conversations we've had where you've been able to help me see and say, This doesn't have to be the conversation. It's just part of a conversation. And that I'm allowed to be a part of the conversation. And the problem isn't wanting to be a part of the conversation. It's
Taina Brown she/hers (17:26)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:42)
The white supremacy piece is the belief that I need to be the conversation, right? That I need to be the expert in the room. But it's okay for me to say I want to be a part of the conversation and like, and that all voices are valued in the conversation. And so you've been so in so many ways. Like I've learned so much from you that it's ridiculous. And I just feel really lucky every time we get to have a conversation because I'm like, I'm gonna learn something here. Okay, I want to go to the other questions because I don't want to forget them. β after that, Steph asked,
Taina Brown she/hers (17:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:09)
How has liberation changed in the hundred episodes, if at all? Like I probably more like our views on liberation. Have those changed over the last these hundred episodes?
Taina Brown she/hers (18:15)
Yeah.
Hmm, that's a really good question.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:19)
I mean, it has
for me, in again, going back to the learning from you and the ways that I continue to learn. I think over these last two years, I have seen such an evolution in myself, in my understanding of and commitment to collective action and working collectively, being in true community. which my understanding of that was definitely very white centered before. And I am
Taina Brown she/hers (18:24)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (18:46)
Unlearning so much of that other stuff and showing up in new ways of understanding that liberation truly cannot happen at an individual level or when we are working individually. That it is only when it is in service of the collective and it is done by the collective. And so like I can see it shaping everything in my life and my business and how I think and show up. And, you know, I again I was just talking to Portia and Parshell right before this because they're launching some new stuff and they were talking about like
Taina Brown she/hers (18:56)
And then
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:15)
You know, what does it look like? We're we're reaching out to see is there something that maybe we can do collectively. And I was like, and they were like, we that might be a bigger conversation for 2027 as far as like the what if we did something where there was a financial component that we all would benefit from. And I'm like, I just want you to know, like, you don't have to conve like I'm not somebody you're having to twist my arm. Like, I'm all for how do we collectively build things and then all collectively prosper from the things that we build. But two years ago, I wasn't that person, Tyena. I really wasn't. I credit so much from
Taina Brown she/hers (19:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:43)
I mean this show and also the you know my partnership with Faith Clark on Feminist Founders, but both of you like I feel so deeply privileged to get to learn from you both all the time. And it has fundamentally changed like my DNA and how I show up. And that I think of liberation so differently now, in that I I truly am like, there's nothing about community that's lip service for me or that's like performative for me. It is truly now like.
I really am always thinking, what does it look like? How do I push myself? How do I think more about how this could look if we if there was not just me trying to do this thing and what might else what else might be possible and how do we all work together? which has also led to some disappointment, especially lately with the situation in my personal life going on with my kids' school and stuff, and realizing that not everyone is there yet and they're not wired that way and that that but it also helps me see my own growth.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:26)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:34)
And realizing, β I think two years ago I might have been that same person. And now here I am saying, like, no, y'all, what like we have to collectively show up for each other and we're not if we're not doing that, then what's the point? So that for me I think is my answer to that.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:38)
Hmm.
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. that's God, that's such a good question. Thank you for sharing that also. psych, okay, I'm not gonna cry, I'm not gonna cry.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:54)
if I don't make you cry this episode, then I'll feel like I'm I've failed. So let's that'll be my goal. No, I'm kidding.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:56)
Like you did something, yeah. It takes a lot to make me cry. β
you know, I think liberation is such a like iterative process. And so I think my my mindset is always like, what's this iteration of it look like for me? Right. Like through everything that I'm doing. And and I don't and sometimes that catches me by surprise, to be quite honest. Like,
I think there's the just like human hubris slash ego, right? And that like internalized white supremacy that we're constantly battling against that like I will sometimes find myself forgetting that I'm part of the community, right? Like
And in that way, I'm like othering other people, but also othering myself. And so then I have to like learn the lesson all over again, like through another iteration that like, no, I also need to like be doing these things. And I am also like worthy of being a part of the community. And so I think that's that's kind of what this space has felt like for me. I don't know if that's like
I don't know if that's like really answering the question in terms of like how it's changed, but I think the concept of liberation, right? Like it's there's this vague understanding of what that looks like or what that means, right? Like liberation means people are free, right? Free to thrive, free to like live their lives, enjoy their lives, be who they are. But what that looks like, like that.
practical application of that is something that changes over time. It's something that we have to like relearn as our contexts change. And so, and over the past two years, both of our contacts have changed incredibly so, between just loss and gains and you know politics, like the world at large, like context has shifted so much. And so
It would it would be naive to say that the practical application of like what liberation looks like every day hasn't changed because of course it's changed. and I think that's something I'm still also just like figuring out as I'm like still grappling with like this grief process, like figuring out, okay, like what is it, what is it gonna look like on the other side of this.
But also what does it look like today while I'm grieving and still need to like make room for things and for myself, right? Like how do I how do I like how do all these things work together?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:29)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, i just you using that tur like that it's iterative makes me immediately think of Adrian Marie Brown and β You did! You said that it's iterative. You said liberation is iterative. And that made but it made me think of Adrian Marie Brown because you talk about her a lot. And that's another thing is I've learned a lot about like you've deepened some of my understanding around some of those things, and I think that continues. I mean, I would hope
Taina Brown she/hers (23:38)
I didn't bring it up. β
Indirectly, I guess.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:55)
That if we did a 200th or a you know, whatever episode in another two years, that I would ha I would say, yeah, my idea of liberation's changed again, right? Because that's what I think human growth and evolution's all about. And I think β questi Kevin, question Kevin, those two words are not that similar, but my mouth was like blah. Kevin asked a question that I think is also interesting, kind of also related to this idea around liberation, which what's the hardest thing about advocating for liberation?
Taina Brown she/hers (24:04)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:22)
And I'm curious, you know, I have a feeling we I don't know. I'm interested. I wonder if we have similar answers. I'm curious what your thoughts are on.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:28)
Yeah,
Think the hardest thing is sometimes the cost of advocating for liberation. Advocating for liberation. There's always a cost. sometimes it's low and sometimes it's high. And everyone has their line, right? Like sometimes the cost is too high. Like that's a reality that we live in because of the world that we live in. Sometimes if you work a nine to five and you have a boss and you know, you work with
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (24:31)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:54)
Excuse me, in an office or remotely or whatever with other people and something happens and the cost is could potentially be you losing your job, which you might not be able to grapple with at that time, that's a too high cost for you, right? To to to advocate for liberation in that context. And so I yeah, I think that's the hardest thing, is like defining that cost and then
making that decision, like when it feels like the cost is too high, like trying to decide for yourself, is is this really too high or or is this just like fear, you know, like am I just like trying not to rock the boat or, you know, am I trying to hold on to cloud or, you know, or anything like that. And so yeah, I think that's the hardest thing.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (25:40)
Yeah, I mean I guess our answers are similar. I wouldn't have thought of it in that term, but now that you say that, yeah, because the cost, and for me, I think it's that I think of two things and they're very related, which is the isolation, potential isolation, the loneliness of it, and then the exhaustion. And those things I think are also very much related that when you are when you feel isolated and lonely in doing it, that can increase the d the drain, the emotional drain on you.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:53)
Mm.
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:08)
And I'm just thinking about this because again, this sort of in real time experience that I'm I'm dealing with with the education system and things locally, like hyper local version of what this looks like in real time and feeling that exhaustion and knowing that so much of that is because of feeling so kind of alone and isolated in the experience and not having the support system that would be helpful.
β in doing that because as we talk about liberation on a more global kind of big picture thing, which is I think I mean, we're talking about real life moments in our lives and stuff, but it's not that we're necessarily with the podcast advocating for a specific change or a s in a specific area, right? and those things are also draining and overwhelming, but it feels it feels a little different. I think the weight feels a little different because there is that piece of like,
Taina Brown she/hers (26:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:56)
I can only do what I can do in this in this moment. And these are, you know, bigger issues. And having a support partner right there as we're talking about it, I think again, because I usually leave feeling better. And I with this hyper local experience that I'm having, I don't have that as much. You know, I have my partner who tries. but it it feels very different. It feels very different. And because of this local situation, there's a particular person that I'm advocating on behalf of or alongside.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:06)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:22)
But I can't say alongside in that we are equal support partners because my privilege in that relationship means that I can't or it would be harmful for me to put my challenges in the situation onto that person. So I'm taking some of those, that additional load and and happily and happy to receive that because that person needs that support in a more acute way than I do in this incident.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:36)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:47)
But because of that, I'm I'm taking on some of that and then not having my own place to place things. And that's where you're like, this can be really like doing the real work, like not the talking about it, not the big picture. That stuff matters too. And so I'm not trying to minimize it because I think talking about these issues, educating the things that we do here, I think are important. But when it comes down to like hyperlocal and really getting involved and doing, trying to make a real world difference and a real life scenario that's happening to in your world, you realize how.
draining and hard and like isolating because you start to realize who is and who isn't maybe supporting in the way you thought they were or showing up in the way you thought they would. And that there is that's that cost that's really and it's enough to make you, you know, well to make me it's a bit enough for me to be like, I don't know if I can do this. And then having to continue to check back in and be like, no, I don't get, you know, I can't just opt out. I mean I can, but I don't want to be the person who opts
Taina Brown she/hers (28:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:42)
out and so like having to recommit, but also having to give myself some space, right? Where at one point the person I'm advocating with was like, so are you saying goodbye? And I'm like, no, I just know this weekend I'm gonna need like I need to regenerate a bit, right? I need a little space because this has been a lot. I'm gonna heal a little like do give myself a little space and then I'm gonna be back in it. Right. β but that yeah that's been really interesting to learn how like just how lonely and and draining it can all be.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:42)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it definitely can be. and I think that's why community is so important. It's such a important facet of doing any kind of or or just having a liberationist perspective, right? It's important to to have a community that you can rely on.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:20)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:25)
to feel restored, to feel held, to feel cared for, but also to have your own practices with yourself to be able to do that as well. Because there's also a cost to community. Like we kind of romanticize this idea of community as I as like this utopia where everyone's gonna love, yeah, we're everyone's gonna get along and it's gonna be great because we all have the same values and everyone's working towards the same goals. But that's while that's true, that's not the whole picture. Like
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (29:35)
Really?
Especially when you're introvert.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:52)
People have personality differences, people have trauma, people have baggage, people get angry and get in their feelings sometimes, right? Right. Like if you've ever been in a long term intimate relationship, you know these things. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And it's like, it doesn't mean I love you any less.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (30:00)
People can just get on your damn nerves.
Yeah, when your partner chews and you're like or could you just not breathe? We don't mean you, Mello. Never never you.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:17)
It doesn't mean I love you any less. There's just there's a cost to being in relationship with people. β and a cost is that part of that cost is like giving up a part of your comfort and making space for people. and so there's it it's I mean, I the bottom line I think is like there's it doesn't come without work. It doesn't come without without you actively choosing to do the work.
Like it's not something that just happens because you think it's a good idea and because you believe in it.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (30:39)
Exactly.
Yeah.
It makes me think of like you're saying with marriage or a long term partnership where and you know that that's the I think the promise or the idea of marriage of taking it beyond like putting that contractual kind of obligation with it is that there is that idea of the sustainability because you can't just easily exit. And that puts in that little pause to make you remember like, am I do I want to keep recommitting? Because marriages work.
Right. Like or any long-term relationship. It's work. It's work. And when it's that romanticized idea, and I've s you see this happen in like reality shows. De re I I think about this because I watch a lot of Love is Blind. These reality dating shows where the people have this romanticized idea of what a relationship is supposed to be. This like, you know, sitcom or whatever, β rom-com kind of version of it. And that's not the case, right? They're work. It's work. It's every day waking up and saying, Am I gonna
Taina Brown she/hers (31:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:35)
recommit today even though his chewing makes me want to you know strangle him in his sleep. Am I going to choose not to strangle him in his sleep and instead choose to say, no, I'm going keep committing to this because there are so many reasons that this benefits me, but also like our collective group and like am I committed to it? And I just, you're right, because again, over these last month or so that I've been in this local situation, there have been many times where I just can feel that urge to just be like, fuck it, I'm
Taina Brown she/hers (31:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:00)
Right. Like if I were dating, I'd be like, I'm out of here. It's just, it's easy enough. I'll just break this thing up. But it feels like, no, I I married liberation, right? I married the cause. And I can't just walk away. I have to say, no, you know what? It is hard. This is really hard. And today I'm gonna keep recommitting. I'm recommitting. Does that not mean that maybe I need to say, like, listen, I need you to be away from me for a few days? Like, yeah, I do. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:03)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, yeah. I need to restore on my own.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:24)
Right. Or I might kill you. But I but we're like there are things that we do within the marriage too to say, like, okay, let's make some ground rules. But we keep recommitting. And that I agree with you a hundred percent. That's how it's felt for me. It's like do you are you marrying liberation or are you just dating it? And I think I used to be more dating and now I feel more married, which feels like progress to me over these again, these last couple of years that this show has been alongside. So
Taina Brown she/hers (32:38)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:48)
Data are your Melo says watching your episodes deromanticize that utopian community. Yeah, I agree. okay, to to for us to fin like start moving towards the finish line of our one hundredth live episode. I thought I know. Let's talk about what's next. Steph says, Well, first somebody said twenty two hundred episodes, right? Mellow's like, Yeah, two hundred episodes. Steph says twenty thousand episodes. I think Steph is
Taina Brown she/hers (33:00)
Can't I still can't believe it.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:12)
That's very ambitious. What would that be? If it takes us two years to get to a hundred, four years to get to two hundred, that'd be what, four hundred years? Maybe we can make that happen. But I'm I'm horrible at math, but I feel like it's a lot. It's a lot of years. but what are your thoughts about? Like what's next? Where does this go? What do you see? Because then in two at 200 episodes we'll come back and say, well, none of that happened.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:14)
You have a lot of faith in us, Beth.
I definitely want to meet up in person because we still we've never been in the same place.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:39)
Ugh, that is.
That should happen. Would be very fun
to do a like IRL episode. Yeah. That's definitely Oprah's done 20,000 episodes. Well, yeah, okay. That's amazing though when you think about that. That's crazy. But that's not weekly. I think Oprah was doing daily for a long time. So that makes a big difference. But yeah. Anyway. Okay. Meet IRL. I agree. That would be great.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:47)
Episode, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that is crazy.
Daily episodes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think
Yeah. Yeah. Something something in real life, something in person. I don't know. We haven't really we're just kind of
taking it week by week, I think, at this point. Like we we don't we don't have any
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:15)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:17)
Plans to stop.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:18)
Mm mm. I don't.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:19)
Unless
it just unless it just gets like completely out of control and it just you know, some cataclysmic thing happens where we can't just like maintain the consistency anymore. god, of course you would. Of course she would. apologies for my wife.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:34)
You never apologize for your wife. I I
don't have to live with her, but I I love her. Face I so I can't see the emojis, just so you know right now, Mello. I'm gonna look when I get to YouTube. But when we're where we're recording in the studio where it shows us what's coming up, it I think you used emojis and it says face fuchsia poop shape. So I don't know what that is, but I can't wait to find out what face fuchsia poop shape means.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:38)
It's never boring, that's for sure.
That's hilarious. That's hilarious. yeah, no, I I think what's next is just we're just gonna keep having these conversations and hopefully keep learning from each other and learning from what's happening out in the world and hopefully helping people who tune in learn a little bit more about themselves and how to do the day to day work of of keeping that liberated mindset and that perspective.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:23)
And then there's also person turquoise waving. I can't wait to look at the those the emojis. I agree. I think keeping it, I actually love keeping it like it's been. it's a fuchsia poop with the tongue sticking out. Okay. Why? Okay. I anyway. I love the idea of keeping things free flowing and letting it letting I love the idea of like let where does this take us versus where we force trying to take it. Like it feels instead of trying to.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:48)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (35:49)
pull or push. It's just like, can we be on the river allowing the enjoying the ride, right? Like and ju it it feels like the difference between rapids where you're like struggling to stay in a lane or something and just being on like a nice little float trip down the Yeah. Like I just want to be on the lazy river and wherever the lazy river takes us, that sounds lovely and let's see what happens because I I feel like there's I'm trying to get off the ride where we're forcing everything. And I feel like I've been on it so long and I do feel that like
Taina Brown she/hers (35:56)
Yeah.
Hello Floaty.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:18)
whole still sometimes to be like, β you know, especially when I look at data. Like I love seeing the data. I think it's fun to see that we're, you know, 11,000 downloads and like watching the growth and seeing the subscriber numbers, but also trying to untether that from the impulse to be like, so then now we got to get to 500 or we got to get to what you know, whatever the thing is, and just saying, can can we just enjoy it? And I think that's mostly what we've been doing. And it feels like it has been working. And other places where I have
Taina Brown she/hers (36:43)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:45)
allowed that pull to take over, the drive, the like it's gotta be this, it's gotta be that. It never seems to work. And I do think there's something to be said for like not forcing things. β and and the results working better because of it.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:52)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. It feels very organic. and I think it's I mean, you and I both are managing like our own businesses, you know, also outside of this. And so I think that's that's those are places for like a lot of structure and and planning and and things like that. And so it's nice to have this one thing that is a part of that, like overlaps with some of that, but
doesn't have to be so like structured and you know, and like you said, just kind of like directed, like just letting it kind of be what it is. yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:31)
I know, I think it's been great. I will also say that Melo then said let it flow, which I know is about what we were saying, but let it flow comment comes right after the fuchsia poop and so it's just like
Taina Brown she/hers (37:40)
Yeah. Contextually it's like what is happening?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (37:43)
Yeah. When
we do a live episode, Mel, you don't have to hold the camera. I think we should have our partners there and I can only imagine what that might end up being. Talk about shit show. It'll be a shit show. But a fun one, hopefully. also I want to make sure people know as we wind this down, because this is a little break for us, but not for listeners, which we're pretty stoked about because it's summer. Like my window's open, it's beautiful right now. Soon it won't be, but I'll be needing to then be in the air conditioning doing other things, right?
β so we're taking some time over these next two months to one, think a little bit about some of those big picture things and what are some things we might want to try and build together or do together, but also just to give ourselves some of that breathing room that we talk about. Because if this is gonna be sustainable, the thing that's allowed us, I think, to get to the hundred episodes is because we have kept it going in a way that feels more sustainable, where we honor like no, hold on. Where we honor our needs and our capacity and all of that.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:37)
And so I think we need to in in a way we're doing that now is we have a pre-recorded series of, I think it's nine episodes or will be. We still have to record our final one. But β basically two months called Everything Is Political. I love these conversations. I can't wait to share them. I think they're so great. Yeah. It's about us trying to help again, with the education piece, helping people understand why that idea that some people have of
Taina Brown she/hers (38:44)
Well.
Just so good.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:59)
don't talk, don't we don't talk about politics here or don't bring your politics into it. That kind of thing you will hear sometimes, most often from people who hold a lot of privileged identities. β why that is just bullshit, right? Why politics is part of literally everything. Yeah. And so I mean, we're talking about things like composting and and trash, data analysis. I'm trying to remember what are some of the other fashion clothing. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Everything.
Clothing,
therapy.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:25)
Yeah, like ev we we we tried to go kind of a wide swath of parts of our lives so that people could see and get that understanding of β why things are political. And then the hope I also have this hope of like through those conversations and hearing the kinds of questions we're asking, that it also unlocks some pathways for people to start to ask those questions themselves outside of the areas we cover, but just for everything to be like, hmm, what is it about this water bottle that is political?
Taina Brown she/hers (39:48)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:53)
Right. And I can immediately think of probably five or six things, and I'm sure there are more, right? Where we can start to question it in ways that make us have a different relationship with the world around us and the way that we show up. So I'm really excited about it. Anything you want to say about the series that's starting next week?
Taina Brown she/hers (39:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, nothing you haven't already said. β I the conversations were so, so good. And I really hope that that people who listen and tune in get a lot out of it. And that it like you said, that it does kind of spark this like sense of curiosity about how we go about our daily lives and the things that we interact with on a daily basis. very, very my.
God, the conversations were so good. Like I feel like every person that we talked to, we could have talked to them for hours. We didn't because we value everybody's time and we wanted to make sure there were good bite size episodes that that people could listen to. so every episode is just under an hour. So but but yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to to start releasing those next week.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (40:49)
Yeah.
Yeah, and and it could be a whole sub series and it is a own series that's coming out and then we're talking about doing maybe something, whether it's that same idea again with some different elements or a different sort of series, but doing another series at the end of the year. Again, twofold. One, because we love these series, it gives us an opportunity to bring guests on, to you know, get to have people we want to talk to on and all that.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:09)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:12)
and educate in a new way. And then also it gives us that space to say we've recorded all of these, so now we can take the stretch of time because we know last year at the end of the year we got a little lax on some things because we and that's okay, of course, right? but it's nice to have something you can already put out there in the world. And just to answer your question, Melo, my my partner is more extroverted than me. I'm very, very deeply introverted. My partner is more ambivert, but no one is as extroverted as you, other than perhaps my child. My child?
Taina Brown she/hers (41:23)
Yeah.
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:40)
Could give you a run for your money. but my partner, no, he's not quite as extroverted as you. But then again, most art. And in the most beautiful way. We love you. thank you all for being here live. Any final things you want to say, Taina, as we end our 100th episode and now go into from here on out, it's triple digits or more, baby.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:51)
Yes, thank you.
Wow. I just I think I think something you said earlier on in the episode about it being a slow process, I think people forget that about progress in general, about liberation, about everything. We we live in in a society that's so used to like the quick dopamine hits and the quick turnaround and quick results. and that's that's really going against how we were.
How we've been built really to in our in our humanity and on this earth to like really do things. And so I just wanna remind people like it's a slow, steady process. Like it's not whatever you're doing, it's a slow, steady process. Right. And so you might not tomorrow you might wake up and be like, β today doesn't feel that much different from yesterday. But two years from now, you'll wake up and you'll be like, damn, how like I've changed so much. So much has happened. It feels
Today feels very different from two years ago. And so just remember that. And that's okay. It's okay for you to relish in that too.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:57)
Yeah.
I love that because truly like I unlike you, I didn't go back and look at anything before this episode, I probably should have, but I didn't prep. And just sitting down to reflect on two years and thinking of where I was in twenty twenty four, first of all, before that election. So there's that. but also just like where I was at when I reached out to you and and what my life looked like. And it is it is amazing to reflect on.
S I do feel like I have seen such monumental growth of myself in just two years. You know, I mean, I can do that over any period of time, I think, right? But this last snapshot here of these two years, I'm like, I can really think of very concrete things that have changed. But yeah, in the moment, I wouldn't have felt that. I wouldn't have been able to articulate it or see it. And you do need that long lens to be able to see those things. So thank you for that reminder. And I just want to finish by saying thank you.
For being you and being awesome and for doing this with me and like we've where we Yeah, and what we've that we've talked about like this little touch point in our week. I and occasionally we miss one, right? Or we we not miss, we choose to say we don't you know, not we don't have capacity this week, or sometimes we'll record to you because we're like, I don't think I'm gonna be able to next week, whatever. But on the whole, it's been this little touchstone in my week for two years and I just wouldn't trade it for anything.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:52)
Thank you for the for the space.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:15)
And so I do hope we keep going. And truly, like, even if no one listened, but they do, but even if no one did and no one subscribed, but they do, or you know, no one commented, but they do, like I would still want to do it. because I I value the time that we get to spend and selfishly just like what it gives to me every time. β but I also hope because people are listening and they are commenting and there are new subscribers and all of those things, I'm hoping that it also means something for other people. And that little touch point in their week is
Taina Brown she/hers (44:26)
Yeah.
Same.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (44:44)
The reminder they need to stay with these things or to continue to learn or keep challenging their edges and all of that. So thank you also to everyone who's been listening and joining us on this right because we get so much out of it, but to think that other people do is like so so cool. So cool.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:54)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We really,
really appreciate the the listens and the downloads and the people who tune in, whether it's consistently or not, just thank you for being here and for letting us be a little part of your life.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (45:11)
Yeah. And getting to explore things like, you know, sinners and having those conversations. And you know, just like I think that stuff's really cool. So thank you all. Thanks for those of you who showed up live. Thanks for everyone who's listening later. And here's to another hundred. All right. Bye everyone.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:26)
Another hundred.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:29)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.