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Jeff teams up with guest Kenzie for an engaging and thoughtful exploration of one of today’s most contentious issues: the pro-life versus pro-choice debate. Together, they dissect the core arguments on both sides, shedding light on the ethical, philosophical, and emotional dimensions of reproductive rights. From critiquing the “philbro” approach to discussing the human impact of these decisions, the conversation delves deep into societal narratives, exposing contradictions and exploring solutions. Whether you’re looking to challenge your views or simply understand the debate more deeply, this episode offers an insightful and balanced approach to an often-polarizing topic.
Creators and Guests
Guest
Ms. Kenzie
Kenzie (she/her) is a Marxist intersectional feminist TikTok creator with a dedicated audience of over 65,000 followers. She began her activism journey as an abortion rights debater, later expanding her focus to feminism and broader social justice topics. Inspired by the works of Kate Manne, Bell Hooks, and Kimberlé Crenshaw, Kenzie explores critical issues like the intersection of identity, the oppression of women under capitalism, LGBTQ+ rights, and the construction of gender under patriarchy.
What is End of a Species?
Join us on a unique journey where news, culture, and history collide with humor and critical thinking in “End of a Species.” We blend philosophy and logic with a dash of comedy to help you see the world in a new light. Whether you’re a curious mind, a philosophy enthusiast, or just someone who loves a good laugh, our podcast offers thought-provoking discussions and plenty of laughs. Tune in for a fun and enlightening adventure that will not only make you think but also keep you entertained. Let’s explore the truth together!
this final weekend of
it is Sunday the last day or tomorrow?
I think tomorrow's the last day.
depending on who you talk to you get like
15 different theories about what's going to happen on Sunday or Monday and
five different politicians that will actually say like hey,
I'm going to save it or we're going to have a deal or whatever.
I actually don't care.
It is very like so so should I leave?
No, no I can stay.
Oh, no, I should go like
It's so strange, but the the thing that
the thing that vexes me, I'm going to use the word vex because I like
it is that I see so many eulogies
for what's essentially a $40 billion app,
like, you know, being
like central estimate and there are so many other places to go.
Like, yeah, the the the algorithm was good for
getting people together and all that stuff, but it just
feels icky to be like, hey, corporation that specifically, you know,
had weird moderation policies, but we
made friends, so we like it, but we hate it, but we like it.
I don't know.
The moderation is pretty insane.
It does feel like there is no rhyme or reason.
But um,
I mean, I've said this to Sean.
Like when I joined TikTok, I I consider myself like
very much the cliché white liberal feminist.
I wouldn't even call my myself a feminist then.
And now I feel like I'm very radicalized to like Marx this interceptional feminist.
which is kind of like an interesting character arc,
especially now seeing why TikTok is being banned. um
It's definitely an example of like capitalism
when people like Mark Suckerberg can't buy companies because you become a monopoly.
They'll just heavily lobby Congress
in order to get it removed because, you know, I mean, it we all know it's not about data safety.
Like come on.
I mean otherwise Facebook or mea would be in trouble.
But everybody would be in like every Internet anything like Amazon would be in trouble.
They they control like a majority
of the Internet runs through them and the data just leaks everywhere.
But nobody cares about that.
um What are you going to be doing
going forward or do you know?
Have you decided?
I don't know.
You know, like my kind of popularity, my bread and butter
was debates and now kind of with like the structure of
other social media apps that's just not
functional. um so I don't
know, like maybe just focusing on video content.
I was thinking of reacting to like red pill content on YouTube.
I do have a couple of serious ideas I could do on Instagram,
but I don't know, I'm like hesitant to me on Instagram now because I don't want to support meta.
I don't know.
What's a girl to do in this social media world?
Yeah, um I
have I have a few coals in the fire, but I haven't decided specifically what I want to do.
I know I want to keep this podcast going.
This podcast was was uh my favorite
thing to do for a long time and you know I' jealous of your sign.
That's really dope.
Oh, this this sign was a
the creation of a supporter one of
the supporters uh brought it and you know what,
just for that, I'm going to put all their info in the description.
and and then they can uh, they can get some recognition.
So in the description, you'll see that. um, you know what?
I think we've bantered, I'm going to say,
for everybody who's still here.
This is, in fact, the end of a species podcast.
And if you haven't figured it out by now, today's guest is Kenszie.
Is it Ms. Kenzie?
Is it it's Kensi bitch?
Is it
um yeah, it's Ms Kenzie.
Ironically, that's a name that TikTok gave me.
I'm just not sure I think they just kind
of took a combination of my name and and switched
it around and came up withnderscore Kens so yeah that's always been my
it's is just it's kind of like a non
Britney as well as um there were a couple times I
changed my name and then people would be like, is this Kenszie?
Is it or is this like a spam account?
Is this one impersonating her?
And so I finally just changed it to
clear up any misconceptions. get
that a lot too when I go in on a backup this Jeff Yeah, and
then like, I mean I've seen uh my friend Josh, he changed his
at from I think it was Josh debates
to Josh advocates and then someoneooked Josh debates and try to like pretend to
That's.
Yeah is a kind of a crazy place.
But we're going to move on.
And today we're all over the place.
We're going to move on
we're gonna we're going to just take over every social media app and
until they kick us out and then we move on to the next one, like locusts. um exciting.
But today I want to talk about something that you and I have talked about a lot
um that we've experienced a lot.
And that is this uh this argumentation
that people have when they're talking about
being pro-choice versus being pro-life.
Oh yes, abortion.
That was um when I started TikTok,
I was a single topic debater and it was abortion.
Really?
Okay. um I resisted
saying like having any kind of abortion debate for the longest really surprised.
Well, every time I've ever like even dipped my
toe, like I would join alive and somebody would be like, okay, I want to debate abortion.
all of a sudden I feel like two men, two
non-uterus havers talking about abortion while
a bunch of people who do have a uterus are
white on and it just feels icky,
you know.
I've talked to I've talked to with Sean about that about how I've
never put like systemic criticism on my board.
You know I'll I'll go and I'll go in the lane if like
when talking about phonemanism we go in there,
but no, I really do think
that advocacy should be the marginal issue should be at the forefront.
Well, and so so here's the thing.
You're really good at abortion debates.
It's it's for a lot.
Well, it I mean, it's true.
I take a different approach.
I, you know, I'm a philosopher at heart, even though
I don't like lead with that. um, but I take the approach of like
trying to have a conversation with a person with a
with usually a man and saying, why should we get
to tell other people what to do with their body?
And that's where the argument is.
I don't focus on like other, like more
nitty gritty things that like the gestation
period and at what point is their sentience and all this other stuff?
Because
those are like decision points that I think are for
women to decide, not for me.
You know what I mean?
Sure Yeah, I mean a lot of it is um it's
it's interesting watching kind of the abortion arc
of I hate to like the niche on TikTok because
I would say the most stressful time when when I was on TikTok was when I first started
because probably the first like 10
months, um there were a very clear camps of people
who were pro-choice and people who were pro-life.
And then, you know, I think everyone kind of disseminated
and started doing like essentially expanding their platform,
which is why I went like more into feminism.
I think if you remained like a single, um, you
know, just a single topic debater, you you kind of f face out.
But anyhho, um.
it got really interesting when people like really started,
we call it like Philbrow it, where it's just, I
think I told you, like they just sit around and think of like crazy ways to
kill babies and then ask you like, are you okay with this?
Would you kill a baby in a box?
Would you kill a baby with a fox?
That's something that you told me about.
And I was like, no, a no way.
And then when I first started doing actual,
like the actual like debating.
I started getting hit with all these hypotheticals about not
just ways to kill babies, but ways to abuse women.
Like, would you abuse women this way?
Would you would you kill a baby?
or abuse a woman?
And it's like,
is this really like is this where the argument goes?
Um, I don't always have the theory that pro-life
people like to stay in philosophical arguments
because there's so many areas where they lose
in like the pragmatic application of abortion bans
that they just kind of want to ignore with that.
Well, all right.
I don't want to
this is usually the point where I'm really tempted to go into like really
deep meta ethics and all this stuff.
But a lot of it ends up being question begging.
And I'll just say for the audience, question begging is where you like assume
that your your conclusion is true and then you just go on with the argument.
And so like when when somebody says, I
grant the right to life at point X,
I could so whoop you do, you know, like
that's a that's a question begging kind of statement.
That's a I grant it so you should grant it too.
And it's almost like people think there's no
other way to address not killing people
unless you have to put some right that that
somebody has to live, right?
um And so to me when it when
it gets into the philosophy and you start pointing out the flaws, it's
almost worse because like if you address the legality and it's
like, oh, all I have to do is get convince fifty one percent of the vote people,
that's different from, well, I
have this argument that completely ignores your worldview.
And I just want you to accept it because it's my argument.
And
if you disagree with it, I'm just going to call you demonic and walk away.
It's just weird, you know?
Yeah, there there was a conversation you and I had where we
were talking about morality and you had an example of
like a a surgeon doing a surgery on someone.
And then you always added context from the
previous example and it would change if I would say if it was good or bad, like, oh, we gonna do surgery on a kid.
Oh, that's good.
Now when he's drunk, oh, that's bad.
Oh, no, you know,
now he's got a chainsaw.
Oh, that's not good.
So it was like pro-ifers
like when they were like, let's play the will you kill baby
here or there, I kind of double down with it and I'm like, okay, let's lean into it.
And it's really funny watching them when a squirm when
you give them like a taste of their own metastin.
And then they they don't have um
essentially the arguments or or really the ground to cover.
Well, so I'm going to give it an example,
and just so that everybody knows exactly what we mean when we say people give these hypotheticals.
So like let's say I'm going to I say that when somebody is
when any thing is in your uterus,
I think you're should be allowed to do whatever you want with your uterus, so you should expel that thing.
And once you're out and you're out, right?
Cool.
And so somebody may come up to me and say,
well, what's the difference between killing
a fetus, you know, two days before and then two days after when they get out?
And so that'll be the hypothetical.
So like you could kill a ftus if it's like the
day before the abortion, but if it if it's born the next day,
it's the same entity.
Why wouldn't why wouldn't you kill it then?
That's kind of like the type of hypothetical that we usually see, right?
My favorite is either a cabin in the woods or if you push a button.
Okay.
Yeah.
Those are that I would get a lot.
Here's my problem with the rhetorical goal of
that hypot of any of those hypotheticals.
Let's say I agree with you and I'm like, you know what?
My position was so contradictory.
All you've done now is convinced me to kill live
babies, like born babies, because for me to
keep a consistent worldview, and I don't think that's what
a pro-lifer wants to do is go, well, you're okay with abortion,
so you have to be okay with killing youborns.
And so if I go, oh, well, okay.
And, you know, just apply.
uh, you know, just keep su succeeding and also a 16 year
old, yeah, I guess I guess yeah, fine.
We'll just kill everybody.
That's what they're doing, right?
Because I'm not going to give up my my spot and it's just weird, right?
um, I I mean, I definitely wouldn't take your position.
Mine was always just because a lot
of them gave grape exceptions.
um and so it was like, oh well, you know, she can have
an abortion, you know, in the case she's been great.
Then let's say, you know, she is not
able to access abortion and then gives birth on the floor.
Is she just allowed to leave a great baby on the floor?
And I can't tell you how many of them are like, yes.
you know, so it's really not about killing babies because you're
fine with that baby, like just fucking eat, you know.
It's possible this is your last weekend saying grape.
Oh, yeah.
I don't remember where I am.
Yeah, can I cuss?
I don't even know the rules on your can you can you can cuss you can
say whatever you second nature too.
And like there's been times to work on Google and I have tight grape and Google's like what the fuck are you talking about?
And I'm like shit.
yeah, but um that's also a weird hypothetical.
The the cabin in the woods hypothetical is funny.
I'll just go we'll just go through them in a row.
Like so the cabin in the woods hypothetical
is kind of like the giving up resources.
So you you say, well, you don't have to give up resources.
You know, you shouldn't be forced to give up your resources and that's pregnancy.
So somebody goes, well, what if you're in a cabin in the woods should you be forced to breastfeed?
Right?
That's about about it.
And uh or yeah, we're on a ship and at sea.
And and for me, it's like, okay, so if
if uh if you're in a cabin by yourself, forced by who?
That's that's the question. wants you think about your actions.
Yeah. um if there's nobody else there,
then the, you know what do you what are you objecting to?
Like you you unless unless you're Clair Voyant, you don't even know what's happening.
If it's in a ship at sea, same thing.
Like so if there's other people there, I guess they can force
the person to do a thing, but they're not really making an argument for it.
They're just forcing someone to breastfeed, right?
And this is again, another place where you're not really giving me an argument.
You're just saying, well, here's
another scenario and should we force the person?
I don't think so, but I guess if you want to, I
mean, you can't find any other food for a baby.
It's I would only pass them too.
Like what if it's not my baby?
Like what if I'm a ship?
I happen to be lactating for some weird reason
and you know it's not my baby.
Do I have an obligation to breastad it then?
Yeah, what's the distinction the it's
not biologically related to me, do I have?
Or like with a cabin in the woods, like
what if I have two babies, but I only have enough breast milk to feed one?
Which one do I pick?
Do I try and feed both and just let them both slowly starve?
Do I feed none?
Because I, you know, once a
boy one's a girl and I don't want to be sexist like what what's the delineation here?
You know it's like I would always try and add those crazy modifiers to see how they would have handle their own
their own hypothetical.
So you you're kind of steering into the skid.
It's like if you're if you're going to come up with ways to kill
babies, I'm going to come up with even more people you's
let's go nuts like a
taste of your own And and I guess from a from the
from outside of everything, it's it's
putting like filbrowing this type
of thing ignores what the point of abortion
like is like a like what what the point
of reproductive freedom is to begin with, right?
Which isn't like, hey, I just want to kill babies.
It's
we don't want women to die.
We want them to stay healthy, crazy us, right?
Like we don't Yeah, you know, we want them to have autonomy.
We want them, you know, their will to be considered.
Maybe not have breeding farms.
I don't know.
We we're just nuts that way.
Crazy cookie kooky Karens.
Yeah. left this out here just one
and the ironic thing is too
is I feel it should be a position held by the right if they don't want government that I never understood that.
Yeah, you know, I don't want the government stepping into my stuff,
even like the taxationist theft crowd.
Well, you're going to have to pay some taxes to enforce some of this stuff, right?
Like, um so for
me, yeah, it it's it's it's very sloppy, but I
can tell you just from experience, the philosophy of it is floppy.
The practical application is sloppy.
Like even you said like
some people would give a rape exception and then
the the natural next question is, well, how do
you and how do you how do you apply that?
How do you give a person an exception for rape?
Like is it just to you report it?
Exactly.
Yeah.
I think it's really important to recognize pragmatically
that like exceptions are not legislatable.
Yeah, because it's wager.
Yeah, you know what?
What I like to say is if somebody goes as soon as they report it, I'm what
I like to say is, well, okay, tonight on my blog I'm going to write
a whole thing and distribute it to every female and
woman and uterus have her on the planet
and just say, hey, if you want to have an ab abortion,
just say, just report a rape.
That's it, because we don't have to have like
any investigation, because they're not going to investigate it anyway.
But then
if they go, yeah, if they go, hey, we're
going to we got to wait for a conviction.
Well, those take an average of how long is it one and a half, two years now?
My gosh.
Even if it leads to an arrest, like how can you put
a time limit on like police investigation then it actually leading to an arrest?
That's crazy.
Yeah, and the numbers aren't on your on your side
because percentage wise, very few of them are even like looked at.
So we're just not giving like we're just performatively
saying we're going to give a rape, et cetera.
We're not actually doing the actual accepting because there's no way to do it.
Yeah, no um
same thing with any other kind of exception that you
could think of, like, hey, it's a medical exception.
And that almost seems to think that
when a doctor says that somebody's
life is in jeopardy, they're just saying hundred percent of the time like
like there's no doctor knows for sure what's going to happen.
And usually when they do, it's pretty close to almost too late, right?
Yeah, I mean and it's
really interesting how people hold these positions and they know so little about pregnancy
and so little about medicine. um
because, you know, what what if your body does fail
to expel a miscarriage?
You you are inducing an uh
an expalation of the fetus that that's an abortion.
still has a heartbeat like, and if
you don't do it, like essentially a lot of doctors have have to wake till people become
septic and are at risk for cardiac arrest.
And we do see those unfortunately, those
results when there are, you know,
um trigger laws and abortion bans that go into effect.
And there was there's one story
I saw during the election cycle where, uh it
had it was a picture, uh, showing almost like
a young, a young girl saying, hey, she's about to
go into seventh grade or first she has to deliver a baby.
Like she's got to be a mom.
that's so crazy.
So you see things like that and you're
like this is the result of all this filrowing.
It's it's it's kind of crazy.
Like it
you know, um, you said that when um when
you first started, there were people in the pro choice in the pro-life camp.
there are some people that I see that are like, like
sometimes I'll go into a panel and I'll just be watching. and it's kind of half and half
of pro-life and pro-choice people and they're just hanging
out like fine tuning different weird
pro-life and pro-choice positions and arguments for
and against the rights of sentience and uh
bodily autonomy versus life and all this other.
And even that seems weird.
It seems weird to be like just in a room
hashing out like the philosophy
of which place do we land on?
And then eventually somebody who's not really experience
comes in and they help them form an argument.
it's all very strange you know it
it really is and like if we want to even talk about like the lore
of prochoice and pro-life people um like
the prolife community just absolutely I
look at like all the original creators who had any kind of
traction or any kind of credibility, just like horrible awful people.
Oh really?
Like, yeah, I can give you the biggest ad home argument.
Like, um, I mean, we all know TB, just horrible, horrible human being.
He he I I swear, he debates just to like abuse woman.
uh Mendoza had a lot of credit for some reason.
I think she was just popular with uh men
because she was like pro- live progun
uh, like attractive person.
Like she she's literally in prison now for attempted murder.
Like that's how pro-life she is.
That's great.
Wow.
Okay.
I mean like for those of you know, like zombie
is zombie zomies went from side to side and
now it's like a full right, like conservative
transphob like she she's like a
case study in her own.
And then, yeah, a couple other people have just
either become irrelevant or are just running the same arguments, haven't really expanded their platform.
I remember um
I think it was Smitty.
I was having a conversation with.
And his argument was is like, your rights are depending on location.
And I said something like, no, rights violation can be dependent on location.
He's like, that's ridiculous.
And I'm like, well,
what about rape?
Like, isn't it because location of his
generalitals is somewhere it shouldn't be like
it's location, isn't it, if that we're going to boil it down to something simple?
Because that was always the argument like,
oh, this is the location the fetus is is determined if it has rights or not.
I'm like, no, it determines the rights infraction.
Like, come on, are we really stretching it like this hard?
like and um
I mean, I think we've joked that your cut like that you're
a fil bro and you're like, no, I'm a fil father because I think you actually have
more of a high uh philosophical
understanding than a lot of the the Phil bros on here, but man, they
would make it a really boring discussion a lot at times.
Well, like in my background, I talked to
a lot of people who have a like a philosophy background.
So they are people who either have read a lot of
philososophy and and their hobbyists or people who
have um uh majored in it or
like, you know, some some of the uh some of the people I I routinely
engage with have like a master's or a PhD in philosophy.
And the the through
line is that there is a way to apply
philosophy to different things.
So that's why you have like
philosophy of mind, philosophy of religion, phil there's
a way to apply these concepts of even
science, there is a philosophy of science where you're not just like
taking stuff into the ether and not considering
the entailment of what you just said. um so like,
I I I'll the the other hypothetical is a great example of this, like the button analogy.
and for somebody who studies philosophy,
so the button analys can you can you actually, you're probably better at outlining the button analogy than I am.
Can you kind of outline it?
the button analogy is like you hit a button
if you touch a button or, you know, you push the button, you either
get a hundred dollars or you put someone I think
this person comes into existence and a state of dependency someplace else.
So here's when when I hear that,
what I hear is every single human on earth can now
get a vasectomy or a hysterectomy
immediately, because we now have a
magic button that spawns humans.
I don't care about the state of dependency anymore.
We we have magic, right?
That's the entailment of what somebody just gave me with a hypothetical.
They're not really even testing my principal anymore.
They are giving me magic.
So I just engage with the magic.
Like, okay, so I'll just keep pressing that button
and spawning more humans until we
hit the sweet spot of population that doesn't fuck up traffic or whatever.
and then when when the population gets too low, we just assign
another person to press the button and we
don't even have to worry about like Lamar's classes.
GYNs like we don't you don't
ever have to worry about it again because you're just pushing a button.
That's my responsibility to the hypothetical.
I mean, I know there are ways to engage with they've expanded earth.
I don't think anyone has really proposed the argument
of like, whoa, what entailsment to come with this hypothetical?
There's I there so and
I try not to not to get to like academic on the on the podcast, but
there is um, there
is a conclusion and there that nothing happens in a vacuum.
And so I tried I used to
have the stance that I don't engage in hypotheticals that don't happen on planet Earth.
So like I would call it like nomological possibility.
I'm not going to go too far into what that means, but like just if
you're not showing me something on the planet on which I reside, I
don't care because on a different planet where magic exists, maybe
my morality is different because the stakes are different.
But then after a while, I just thought it would be fun to just,
hey, when you give me a hypothetical, it's just let's just roll with it.
Let me show you let me show you the diorama you've constructed before me and
let's have a conversation about that. you
know how do you normally respond to something like that?
the button analogy?
Yeah. um I
I try and link it back with abortion um you
know because a lot of it it depends on what the argument is and typically the argument is causal
and so when we talk about a causal
obligation, I would only concede that like maybe a causal obligation could
come into play is of some kind of rights violation or some act that were immoral were committed.
that's the delineation.
I don't obviously sex is immoral. obviously it's not a rights
violation, so why would I have any kind of obligation?
And then the same with a button well is it a moral to push the button?
Why are we not lock the button?
am I if I push
the button and cause this person to exist, now do I have a partner?
Like are they biologically related to me?
Am I now a single parent?
Do I have a parental obligation?
Like what what are we entailing here?
Do I have to like and what kind of state of dependency are they in?
It's just a lot of real specific.
So so I go into specifics like you do, but for me it's essentially like
the morality of the action, because it's usually a causal obligation. argument.
I remember the first time somebody, I saw you,
you were doing a debate and somebody was talking about causal obligation.
And I kept thinking to myself, well, I
don't believe if I cause a thing that gives me an obligation.
uh, there's certain places there's certain instances where it can right?
But not as just a general rule.
So I would just say no.
But the way that you say it where you're outlining
like, well, I have a causal obligation if I violated
your right or if I opted in or I think that's the other one you usually say.
That's kind of saying the same thing.
Like if if I caused something, but I
didn't violate anybody's rights, then we're just talking about some weird
rube Goldberg effect that happened and I don't think that gives me an obligation.
But people aren't
really receptive to that, even though they're not they're not seeing that,
you know, in other places, they definitely want you
to accept it as anx and it's just not a good argument in my opinion.
Yeah, like if I if I accidentally drop a a
rock out of my pocket at the top of a mountain and it turns into a huge snowball
and crushes a town.
I'm not paying for the town.
That was just an accident.
That's just something that happened, not my fault.
Yeah, and then like, what link in the chain are we pointing at when it comes to cause?
Yeah, I mean, yeah,
true. uh it's like I confented
to sex, but like a man ejaculated, which
to me is the next link in the chain, like why and I would say that's
more of a direct cause of pregnancy
than me just consenting to sex.
So why won't he be the causal party and not me?
And it's men doing that all the way back.
because that person was caused by another
man ejaculating like to however
weight, whatever way you put it, whether it's like mitochondrial, whatever,
or Adam and Eve or you know, if he calls my pregnancy,
am I now in a state of dependency where I need an abortion and he's somehow obligated to me
all the causes.
And you know what?
In some sense, we can blame God because he caused it all, right?
And I I really do I really try not.
I really try to make God non-binary.
I say they a lot or else is she One thing
I'll do is I I refuse to capitalize the word God.
I always even even when I'm writing
um like notes to people, I
always make it lower case when I'm writing it in a chat.
I always make it lower case because I know that's bringing
across the fact that this is just a thing
that people like lean on, right?
stick it to them do they notice that?
Every now and again I've been called out on it and I don't even respond.
I just I just smile. um
they never notice it when I have it as a background.
Like when I have it as a like in my background as a
topic, they won't notice, but um,
but sometimes it a chat I'll I'll write it and
then somebody will respond and say, why isn't that capitalized?
And I'll just
yeah, he doesn't mind.
He's fictional.
My um, my subtle
feminist move is whenever I'm having people sign contracts.
I always put the woman playing first.
Ooh. does anybody respond to that?
I've had a couple of people who like
look at me like kind of stuff like, but they don't say anything.
I've had one person say something.
Really?
It from if that if that actually
bothered me and I thought it through, I would have to think about how small it makes me look.
that the woman's name going first is the thing I'm going to say I'm going to point out.
Like of everything else that I could point out, like this bothered
me so much that I have to change, I have to stop looking at the contracts and be like,
you put the woman's name first?
I know, right?
Like me tell me it's small without telling me it's
small like it couldn't be me. could not be me to
do I like I would have to just I would just have to bite bite the bullet on that and be like, okay, whatever.
Live to fight another day because that just seems
like some weird shit to plant your flag on.
Like this is hey, we're we're doing a multi-million
dollar deal, but I'm going to blow it up because
but the woman's name first and I didn't like that.
That's that's crazy.
I told them too
like, well her name her first name comes before yours alphabetically so the computer does it that way.
Did that go over?
did they buy it?
I told him like if you want me to change it, I will.
And he's like just make sure moving forward.
And I'm like okay moving forward I need
they weren't they were in their early late 60s early 70s.
so I'm sure her credit card said you
know Mrs. John Smith.
Yikes.
Yeah, that I mean, okay.
It's still weird.
It's still one of those things that I'm going to side eye,
but if you're in your seventies, you just came from that era where,
you know, it's
It's like Mr. and Mrs. John Smith, not like.
Mr. Johnson I could never I could never imagine
like a credit card saying with my without my
name on it, you know, like referring to me as just Mrs's and then my husband's name like Ew.
I'm already annoyed.
I
took my ex's last name.
I mean, yeah, but
you know what if to each their own, right?
If that's the if that's the power paradigm you having a couple, fine.
But when it doesn't happen to be upset
about it is is kind of kind of odd.
Like when somebody just gives your your wife
her own identity as a person and you're like, no, I don't like it.
too muchity to me.
It's way too much.
There's there's just no way um to
bring it back to these uh these weird arguments.
before I started watching the
debates on TikTok, I had never heard of flow.
ever.
Yeah, flow is big in the the Philborough world.
I think I told you, I was trying to find it the other day, but
one of my friends sent me um
a document written by a a filbro on like
on flow and essentially like why why it doesn't work from a philosophy standpoint.
I think you've been said is probably the best argument for prol life,
which which to me the argument is just potential.
Well, okay.
So, so flow, which I've
which stands for future like hours.
it is at its core, a potential
argument. um there's some other technical stuff going
on in there, but at the end of the day, that's what it is.
Like this purse, this entity has a future like ours.
But the number of leaps that it takes because somebody
has a potential to do a thing doesn't mean they'll ever get to do the thing.
what the word like ours means like
you mean just generally like ours because my future
is going to be it's not like your future, right?
We're in two different parts of the country.
We have two different lived experiences.
I guess we generally have a human experience.
but like I could
say one of your pets has more of a future. like yours than I do because they live in your house.
So you guys share at least a future of living in your house.
So like the future like ours thing is is that's
the only thing that you can guarantee is kind of like just a general
sense of we have
our cerebral cortex functions similarly, I guess.
Right.
Yeah, I think it's referencing like the same capacityity for like
like like you said, a human experience or rationale, but even that could be argued.
But then there's another leap that I have to care about that.
And there's this arbitrary line that you draw
between the future like hours that is held by a
fetus and the future like hours that is held by uh an ovum
or a sperm cell.
Yeah, where yeah, or or any
other chain in the circlecle of life all the
way back to like a single-celled organism.
Like some of the first single-celled organisms
have the potential to turn into me.
And so like, would you then you
know you see what I'm saying like I at what point are
you stapling this potential there
when at any point the volcano can
erupt and wipe it all out so you there is no potential you know what I mean?
yeah um one of the hypotheticals
I would always like to give is you know like you have a a baby in one
arm and you have a petri dish with 10 frozen
embryos in your hand and you have to let go one and
you're on top of a building, you know, which one are you letting go of?
Because whatever you do is it's going kill kill it.
I can't tell you how many people refuse to answer.
Why would they refuse to answer?
Because they know they would like all theri dish.
I mean sure, but like
I guess that brings up another thing, which is like the dishonesty
in in an argument.
Like, okay, so
if somebody gives me a hypothetical, unless I
have an objection to it, I'll just answer the hypothetical.
Like sometimes there are places I have to
plan to flag that might be uncomfortable for the
person I'm talking to might be uncomfortable for me
They might say, oh, you're disgusting for saying that and that's usually what happens.
But I'm just I'm going if I'm going
to engage, I might as well engage honestly, right?
Like we're just going to we're here.
Let's let's play the game.
But if you're just going to say nah, then
you're just taking your ball and going home that just seems odd.
That seems like an odd
to make.
Ib he was actually also from Montana too.
I debated him a couple times on a couple different subjects.
He refused to answer the hypothetical and when he would
request to join, I would always be like, do you answer for me?
And if he didn't, I would just drop it be like we're never debating again unless you answer.
I mean yeah I don't.
I I just think
it's it's silly to to approach anything
like it, like that.
And if you're just going to do that, just tell
me that you want to keep your idea in your head.
You really want to lean into that conclusion.
You don't really care about the dialogue anymore.
Like you don't care if somebody convinces you of one thing or another.
I like to say that you really want to believe that
clouds are made of cotton candy, no matter how many meteorologists
you speak to, that's the thing you want.
I don't like candy.
Is that a hot take?
I don't know.
I mean, I'm in bivalent me.
I haven't had a major cancellation.
I like cotton candy, but I don't care if anybody else does.
It's it's it's a thing that they generally
you make at a carnival and it's made by somebody whose hygiene is
possibly questionable.
I don't know.
I'll eat a corn
dog from a fair like it's nobody's business.
I'll go to every corn dog stand.
on what?
the funnel I do like a funnel cake.
Okay.
Well, see if you if you were canceled for the c and candy,
your your back on board for the funnel cakes great
yeah I I'm just not like a big sweet eater.
I guess I need like it to be a pastry.
I was just thinking about that the other day like I could go without ice cream.
I could go without candydy, but when it'm just like a doughut or a funnel cake or some kind of bread.
I'm like yum.
It's got to have some some heft to it something some
substions to it.
I mean ice cream, I guess has substance but
but not you you're not a gelato person.
No.
All right.
Yeah, okay.
I can.
So it's a preference, much like a lot of
these arguments that are they're just like hey my preference is this and I want you to
I really want you to have this preference like I do. um I
have a question about the term
right to life.
Oh, yes.
I actually like talking about that with you because it's such an interesting
because it's it's such an axiom that so many people expected.
I mean, okay.
It confuses me.
The the idea of how people approach
rights outside of like
a group get a collective getting together and saying,
yeah, Kenzie, you can own property, right?
I I don't understand how anybody can
outside of that setting where just a group is agreeing that we are doing a thing.
where anybody can apply the word right to something.
You know, like a right that exists outside of that.
Do you know what I'm saying?
well, I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but um like
we're we're just talking about rights like essentially like social rules, right?
Yeah, sure.
And and again, the the social rules are malleable.
So like if that's what we're talking about, that's checkmate because
if society decides your right to life is forfeit, then then that's it.
It's gone, right?
Um, there's not really a discussion you can have there.
You you I mean, you could try.
But I'm talking about people who who say things like you have a natural
or an inherent or an intrinsic right to
life just for being a human.
No, no I I go because we've talked about that like you know nature doesn't give a fuck
right so what is this thing?
I I'm in Florida and and and sink holes are a thing here.
And at any
yeah, at any at any given time a hurricane could sweep me off to Oz and that's that's it, right?
So that doesn't matter.
But what what do you think people are are sick like
what does it mean to like do you does that ever
they always tell me it's the right to not be killed
but um I think essentially they're referring to God.
I you know, like intuitively, maybe they don't say it, but okay.
And I thought that's where that was going.
And so that's the part then that that I have some I take some issue with because
like I'm I'm somebody who will unironically
say that I think Star Wars happened, right?
Um, me and some of my friends will refer to Star Wars as found footage.
But I'll stand like if I'm having a conversation with you, I'll just stand ten toes
on that and just say, hey, this is what I this is how I feel.
But for somebody to say, hey, you have a natural right
and you have to like hoax them
to a to attach that to to some religious thing.
That's where like I'm like, why didn't you just say that?
Right?
Because and I know why they didn't say it.
because now we're in a place where I'm just like, well it's cool and you like going there.
I don't.
I find most god arguments so boring.
But it's so I don't even need the god argument, right?
Like I just want you to be honest about what it is that you're expressing to me.
because if you're just saying somebody has an intrinsic right, but you're not attaching it to.
It's just floating in the air over there.
It's a it's somewhere around the planet Venus and it's just
sitting there just saying you have a right to not be killed.
That doesn't make any sense.
That's incoherent.
Sure.
And so I'm going to be like what do you mean I
I don't understand what you mean and there's no way that you have some argument to back that up.
But it but if you tell me the religious thing, then I
can just go, okay, well, I'm I'm off the bus here.
Like I don't I don't care, you know, I mean,
unless you really want to go into doing what philosophy
hasn't done for thousands of years and you want to do it in this five minute conversation,
have at it, but nobody's going to care.
You're not really going to convert anybody right now.
You know, that's an interesting position because I I'm really I'm curious now.
A lot of pro-life people I talk to, they'll definitely
say like, I want to kill patophiles, I want to kill rapists.
So I'm interested in going down that line, of course questioning
now, like Well, I mean, sure.
Some of them might say that like if you violate a certain morality
of God, he'll he'll say, well, now your life is forfeit or whatever.
to me, it's just let's get to that point where I can just tell you no, right?
And and you don't want you don't want to take on the the the task.
You don't really want to have the conversation or
we're we're just going back and forth.
So abandon that part.
Don't tell me about a natural, right?
And we'll be fine, right?
Like we'll be
we'll just move on to the rest of the no arguments that you have.
So, but we spend so much time
on it and it's just like just get to it and we'll we'll go on.
um However, a
prochoice side, there are some really good analogies and hypotheticals.
And I want to I was going
to say lightning round, but I think we're going to have some stuff to say about these.
oh okay so like the violinist no yeah
I I uh I like that argument so the violinist I
mean you know you know I can see personhood any day
so you wake up and you're attached to a violinist
and you didn't consent to the arrangement but they're they're sucking up your resources.
Can you detach?
I like that.
I like that a lot.
Um I want before we continue, I want to
tell you about I was debating this kid and it was like a Kensi after dark debate.
So, you know, I'm like laying in my bed.
My face isn't even on camera.
And this kid is giving me the craziest analogies.
Like they don't even make sense.
And some and he's he's arguing causal that essentially like women cause pregnancy.
Like it's their fault.
And so I asked him like, okay, let me let me give you an analogy.
Let's say, uh, I have a house and
I leave a house unlocked and you come in and you put dynamite in my house.
and then my house blows up.
Like, who made my house blow up?
He's like, oh, I did for sure.
I put the dynamite in there, and I'm like great, then you just acknowledge that men cost pregnancy.
So if it were my fault, you would have said, well, you left the doors unlocked.
I like that the coping was so beautiful.
It was oh, it was exactly what I wanted.
It was my my late night snack.
When they figure out that they they're cooked, the cook
There's another one I do with like a car accident.
um, you know, and like you wake up and your passenger is attached to you.
I I have not had one person say you have to sustain that attachment.
oh wow yeah um I
do I do a similar thing to your to your house thing with uh
with slavery.
And I say like if you if you kidnap me and I
point a gun in your face and tell you to let me out, did you let me out or did I let me out?
and then just go into how in the Civil War they
offered black people freedom because they were getting the asses beat.
and like if you fight for us, we'll give you the thing.
So like, you know, it it's a similar it's a similar strategy.
um, but I like that a lot.
I like the the you brought dynamite in.
You did the thing. um he didn't even hesitate.
I don't even think he thought about like what my
analogy was setting up because he just like yep my fault.
um there's also like
likening the resources from a pregnancy to like
a blood transfusion or organ donation.
Like hey if you if you if the person like
needs this to live, would you require the parents to give
blood, which is pretty uninvasive.
um I mean, it's minorly invasive, I guess you say.
Or in I would say yeah.
Yeah.
And so
good.
Yeah, like if you don't bite on the blood transfusion, then you you're done.
It's it's it's a wrap for you.
Did you did you ever debate Julian?
I'm going to be honest with you.
Like you've said a lot of these names
and there's a good chance five minutes after I
talked to a person that part of my and I'm going to date myself right now.
That part of the hard drive is defragmented.
Like it's written over.
I don't
it's a lot for me to remember these people.
I have a mutual Bronte who uh she's
now a doctor. uh she's in general medicine, but
she's also very fiercely pro-choiceiced and Julian wanted to debate her. so I think he used me to get to her.
He's like, oh,
me and Glock versus you and Bron.
And it was so funny because he said that he thinks
uh people in society should be forced to donate blood.
And then he made a video about me when
I conceded that like I don't care if people duel.
I'm like really like you're going to be like oh, forcing people to donate
blood that's a okay but Kenzie Kenzie cares if
Kenzie doesn't care if two people duel on the road like I really don't
yeah you know like you
know
I say as long as they're a space where they can't hit somebody else like
go on a hill
I made a video response like joking
that I had like a dual sandbased, you know like I will fight for your rights.
We will duel in the sun again.
We we are mercenaries
when it comes to that, or we will by the point by the time this
episode is dropped.
We were mercenaries.
I feel like my man
sorry I know I'm uh going all over the place, but I just wanted to say I feel like TikTok will be back.
um yeah I don't
know that if TikTok is back,
I will do stuff on TikTok.
I don't know that my
that my participation will be as much as it would if that makes sense.
Like I, no, that's totally fine.
I'm just saying I think this this ban will be shortlived because
we already see people going to red note and knock back to Meadow.
I mean how people are talking about
like the class consciousness.
Well, and now people there there's some politicians talking about also banning red note.
That's which is which is kind of funny. um the
cascading effect is going to be uh is going to be crazy.
um I'm going to put all of your uh socials in the description.
I do want everybody to follow at all the things
but you also have to give me your blue sky account because I
don't have that, but I'll add that to the description.
Yeah, it's just Miss Kenzie.
Okay.
Yeah.
add that. um send
it to me anyway. but um the the I do want to tell you the reason.
the reason that I don't want to do as much
on TikTok anymore. has to do with
the with the thing I just put on the screen.
Yeah.
So I'm going to I'm going to take this opportunity to do
some shameless playugging of what's just released
today, which is the Bob andow six collection on the website.
Let me take the uh
let me take the logo. off the
screen, but um, Bob and Ros six
came out of this idea that I have where like
you do a lot of reading to get to where you are in, uh,
in learning about not just abortion, but like you're pretty
competent when it comes to talking about feminism.
uh, you know a lot about like theory and
um, you know, different a lot of these concepts that that you've educated yourself on.
um, same with me.
I've done a lot of reading, right?
Um, to get to where I'm at. uh a lot of studying,
a lot of uh noteaking, writing, yada, yada, yada.
And what we have is people on TikTok
and don't get me wrong.
TikTok is a great place to make these connections.
It's a great place to have conversations.
But when it comes to like a full on debate,
I find that a majority of the people that we engage
with are not people that should be on the stage.
They should be what I call bob and rosics.
and that is just because they don't
read about the thing that they're talking about.
They don't educate themselves.
They don't even, like in your case, like they might memorize
a couple of lines and then you you hit them with one hypothetical about dynamite and they go,
I'm not going to think about this.
I'm just going to walk into the like Kenszie painted
a a a tunnel on the side of a mountain.
I'm just going to run right into it.
And that's boring to me.
Like I want to have like when I go into a debate space,
I want to have conversations that are like challenging.
I want to to talk to people who
like really
take it seriously. and not people who when
they get cornered are like, well, I don't do this all day or um, I I don't know anything about that.
What do or or the classic, what do I need sources for?
And so the Bob and Roics collection honors those people.
The people who are on a stage have no
business being on there and yet soldier on anyway.
and you could be a PhD in something and they'll tell you no, you're wrong.
I've never heard I've never looked at it.
So uh, for the audience, if you want to
uh, or take in a bob and real six collection, you can find it
at endof aspecies.com.
Also, there is
I have seen this collection. marshmallow brain and Bob is super cute.
Oh, love it.
But I also have a sale going on between January 17th, January 26th.
Use code Jeff 45 at checkoutout and any
of the what I what I consider my favorite pieces in the in the standard merch store
give you 20% off.
So there's that. um, but
yeah, so that was a little bit of merchandising.
I think we' covered a lot of uh of ground imp pro choice.
Did you have fun talking about this stuff?
Yeah, um it's
always interesting discussing like the nuance in the different angles of
abortion. uh I I think I've told you I I've never really
been overly interested in the philosophy of it more like
the practical application of it within society.
But it's it's interesting seeing the arc of
arguments just strictly live in philosophy and I think they
kind of have to in order for the real life people to have any air.
Yeah, and it's a it's
an interesting space to have conversations because pregnancy is such a unique experience.
It doesn't there's there is no like perfect analog to it.
and any attempt to like dissect it is it
you get to dehumanizing areas really fast and and and
that's always a concern, but um yeah, for me,
the argument is is you should consider the will of the pregnant person.
That that's it.
There there's nothing you can say to convince me otherwise.
Yeah, um I agree.
And that's also, by the way, why I say nine
months plus 90 years, because even a apparent,
like in society, I think society should be able to
shoulder the burden of anybody who's unwilling to be a parent
just for the sake of the child that they want to turn into a laborer so.
But um I thank you so much for uh hanging out with me today.
It's we're we're going to do it again.
We're going to we're going to keep you in the in the podcast sphere, I think.
It's going to be so much fun.
And look, we will turn this into a debate space if that's what it takes.
Ooh, like fictional serial killer
or real serial killer real serial killer.
Oh.
I have so I'd have to bring Ton for that.
She's the exper
super pro um but do
you have any final words for the audience?
No, um if you get an abortion
on Tuesday, tacos on me tacos on
me is diabolical.
crazy.
That's that's that's absolutely insane.
Oh my goodness well.
All right. uh like the like
the YouTube if you're watching this on YouTube subscribe to the podcast if you're listening to the podcast.
uh buy merch, uh follow Kenzie, do
all the things and I'll see you guys next time.