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The Sword&Spade podcast is about...
speaker-0 (00:00.078)
One of my goals as a father is I want to like, you know, I want to I want to spend as much time as possible with my kids. especially in this day and age where, once again, if I'm not spending time with them, eventually they're gonna find their way in front of some piece of glass, some looking glass to f to find something else that will replace me. but so I told him, Well, I try to do my art with my kids. Like I I don't I incorporate I'm cognizant of this father and I I
Like my my vocation as a husband and a father comes before my voc w what I consider a vocation as as an artist.
speaker-1 (00:41.806)
Friends and brothers, welcome back to the Sword and Spade Podcast. if you're not a subscriber yet to the magazine, not only should you become a subscriber, but if you're watching the video, you can actually see we we now have available a a daily virtue s guide. We're calling it this field guide for spiritual combat is based on Dom Scupoli's
observation in the book The Spiritual Combat that man fights his vices by cultivating the opposing virtues. in this book c lets you join in with fraternist men that have been doing this all over the country for almost twenty years of living
intentionally engaged as brothers but also very seriously dedicated to growing in virtue. So if you want to join us, not only can you subscribe to the Great Magazine, but you can also get this daily reader, which I will I'm just going to show you. I also have my my calendar in here and you can fit all of these little books from Tan who we've partnered with, all their legacy series books fit in there perfectly. And I walk around with my field guide, a little calendar, and a spiritual classic. It's awesome. I love it.
today we have with us, speaking of making things, doing things, like we always do in Sword and Spade, we have an artist, Joe Mackey with us. his website was sent to me. I think it's if I was reading it, it's CatholicmanArt dot com. And I and I was so excited to go shop for stuff, but there's only like one thing on there. So we're we're gonna we're gonna talk about that. Joe, welcome to the Sword and Spade Podcast.
speaker-0 (02:18.892)
Yeah, thanks G Jason. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. Yeah.
speaker-1 (02:22.784)
I appreciate your patience. No one knows this, but you and I sat through thirty minutes of technical and forth to try to get where we are. So I don't know. Blame it on the devil if you want to, but I'm I'm glad you endured. We're now we we went through a shared ordeal together, so we're better brothers.
speaker-0 (02:38.702)
It's it's all patience. It's part of craft.
speaker-1 (02:42.018)
That's it. Part of craft. All right. I'm I'm just gonna open up. I'd like to know more about your whole story. but I wondered if you could tell us my understanding is you did not begin as an artist in the at least in the mode that you're in now, that you were in some sort of other craft first. how did you how did you become a sculptor? What I mean a craftsman of your sort?
speaker-0 (03:07.67)
So I mean the so I've been doing sculpting for about the past six years. I didn't start it's I don't know I don't know if it's I don't know, symbolic. I always they always say symbolism happens. I didn't start making things with clay, I didn't start sculpting 'til I had kids. So I always think that's interesting. but it was six years ago I started sculpting. Before that I was I had my own woodworking company.
I had worked I mean my whole life I've spent in the manufacturing world. So I've been making things for the past, I don't know, sixteen years. So that's always been and you know, it's there's the we'll we'll get to that maybe a little later, but so yeah, I mean I started out on a production floor. I was just making anatomical models, bones, fake bones. It was very mundane. the company
I mean, I work myself into a management position, but I mean always always hands on, always working on the shop floor. I mean this is I mean this is very basic stuff too. People don't they it's in I would say mundane because it's like, you know, you're just you're grinding things, you're cutting things up, you're you know, you're polishing stuff, you know, it's very I mean, just kind of generic manufacturing work.
But eventually they got this giant laser at the company and I thought it would be a fantastic idea to st I said we could start engraving tabletops and we could make a whole facet of the business of that and everyone told me I was crazy. And I called my brother up and I was like, Mike, you know, I'm gonna buy a table and I'm gonna engrave it and then we're gonna send it to a social media influencer and we can get, you know, marketing you know, some some marketing momentum and I think it could be big. And he's like, Why don't you just learn to hold a tape measure?
I said, you know what? And he's like and I said, I'm like, all right, you know, I guess that's my brother's Mike's he's part of the reason I'm here right now. thanks Mike. and so I was like I bought a tape measure and I bought some wood and I spent two years making a table and in those two years I got a bunch of side work in because as soon as someone knew that I could hold a tape measure, people just asked for, you know, benches, shelves, you know, d small stuff, anything.
speaker-0 (05:24.45)
But finally finished the table, sent it off to a social media influencer, got fifteen minutes of fame on a big podcast for entrepreneurship and it blew boosted the company to where I could, you know, I could quit my job and do it on my own. So I was so I would say like, you know, there is there is an ascendancy or a hierarchy in what I was doing as far as making because
First I started with manufacturing things, then I wanted to make something that just looked cool. The more I got into tablework, I kept I was I wanted to make tables that told stories, if that sounds strange. Like one of my sales pitches was that like I'm not we're not mi but the tables I make you don't put things on, they're a conversation piece. You know, you leave them bare because it's the the very table top of the tabletop is gonna be a work of art. So I was kind of I was getting closer
to something with I was searching to make things of the highest meaning possible and we were I was you know in my parish I had just gotten engaged to my wife in the local priest. he asked me, he's like, Hey you do woodworking, can you make a st where we have a procession for our lady. We needed a new statue beer and that's not like a beer you drink. It's a beer that it's like a thing the guys hold. You put you put the statues on it and you process around.
He asked me to make one, so I was like, okay, I could do that. The current beer was a milk carton with PVC pipe shove flu and a bunch of fake flowers on top, so it wasn't of the highest quality. we could do better. So I I put I I went kind of crazy with it. It was this carved out, Celtic knotted, flowing vine looking statue beer. The goal was to make something otherworldly.
And I think I nailed it on the head. I think it the pis it was for Our Lady. So it's the first thing I made liturgically. Then I made one for Saint Joseph for our church, 'cause I figure we should have two specific beers, two p important people in the faith. And then after that, another priest who I went in I went to high school with called me and he said, hey,
speaker-0 (07:35.574)
I need a cross made. You're you know, you got a reputation as the wood guy among the alumni, and I'm like, Yeah, I can do a cross, just two pieces of wood, that's easy. I'm like, Yeah, it'd probably take two weeks depending on complexity. So, you know, just let me know. He's like, Alright, I'll turn you over to my consultant. And literally about a month before this, I had brought some clay home from work and I had just started sculpt I hadn't I hadn't touched clay since like arts class in high school.
So I had just started I had sculpted an arm, I had started working on a face. I was sending him to a monk who was one of my old art teachers and he was kind of just giving me some pointers here and there. very very critical South African monk. which is a perfect teacher, by the way. and he, you know, just started playing with clay again and he called me up, I need a cross, turn me over to the consultant. Consultant says, Hey,
Crucifix, crucifix, crucifix, crucifix. And that's obviously a cross with a corpus on it. And I didn't say no. he showed me concepts of what he wanted and it was it's what they call pre Gothic. So it was a very early s it's like three D icons, if you're familiar with what an icon is. So it's very early Catholic art. and it's very simple. So I was looking at it and I'm like, mm, I think I could do that. So
Did concept drawings for them which took six months, which they were happy with all the way, which I was surprised with because I mean I can I I'm a great carpenter. I'm now budding in my skills as a sculptor, but I really, really can't draw. So I was surprised they love the concept drawings. but got through concepts and then they had a very tight deadline to get it done. So I literally sculpted the actual corpus in about two weeks and it just
I it just came out. It just flowed out and it went she was it I I c I was surprised how easy it was when I finally put hands on clay after months of doing concept work. And they were overjoyed at the final result and now it's hanging in a church in Cleveland. So as the main altar crucifix. And that was my first commission piece. So and after that I ended up doing 'cause I I do bronze casting in a
speaker-0 (09:57.984)
limited capacity right now. So that was a bronze. I outsourced that to a foundry though. But I did all the candlesticks for the altar, I did the altar cards, I did the the sanctuary lamp and I did their main their Paschal candlest stand. So it's very cool the very the the church I I one of the one of the cool things about this church is that it was a very a lot of churches you get, you know, it's like people are just you know, we get this from a resale shop and we buy that and they kind of just shove everything together.
Everything in the church was completely custom, which is fantastic for a church to have, stuff made for that specific church. And it was all of a cohesive design. Everything flowed together and like the crucifix being like the primary theme and all the other designs flowing out of that. So that was a really fun project or series of projects to be a part of. Wow. Yeah, and
speaker-1 (10:48.952)
So you just so why all right, let me go back then. you you got into production. So you were on a production floor. Are you are you like and I I didn't I didn't grasp this. Are you kind of a crafty I like to make stuff kind of guy before you went home and said I'm gonna laser beam a table?
speaker-0 (11:07.258)
y I yeah, I mean I've always I don't know. Like I always I've I've always reflected on that. I've always been I've never been afraid to not try to make something. And I think that started on a production floor because I mean you're on a production floor, you're you're you're manufacturing things and you always have issues, you know, you're always trying to make things more efficient and I slowly worked my way, so it probably should have mentioned this.
I slowly work my way from a shop worker to a manager to more of an engineering position. And because it was you know at first it was as a manager, you know, you're always getting pressure to make things faster and better and higher quality. But, you know, there's always issues with the process or there's there's issues with the actual well I should the process, how things are made. So you
you you have to tweak things, you have to understand it. And the more technical you get, and this is where being, you know, understanding how the thing's made and actually being one who makes it, you're better able to improve those processes. So and like everything was anatomical. So like when I got into the engineering side of things, there was a there was a dimension of sculpting to it, 'cause you know, we're working with the human body. We're trying to make things as accurate and lifelike as possible. And
i you know, it it's interesting 'cause if you go back to the medievals, like the the concept of high art doesn't really or fine arts doesn't really come into like the eighteenth century. Literally to the medievals there was almost no difference between someone making like a table and painting an icon. It was considered there was a there was a certain elevation to to the trades in that sense because everything
Everything that was being made was respected in a certain sense. There was a different outlook on how things made. Like the term like artists, like they would have called everyone an artisan and like there was a you know, this idea of the artists and the fine arts, this is a much this is a much later development in culturally and in the church too as well. But like it was I mean, most of the old cathedrals and basilicas were built by guilds and most of the
speaker-0 (13:20.396)
the the hundreds of guilds workers that were were part of a guild, they I mean they're they're all but nameless unless they happen to chisel their name onto which does happen occasionally, you can find they chisel their name into something to say that they were there and they did that. But it was basically face in a certain sense it was faceless. But yeah, it was i the the the the the I would call it to be you know get a little philosophical the the h the hobby to s the habit of making was was in me for a while and like
you know, once you I I think once you're in the habit of making, like, things it it's it's less intimidating to try to make new things. I mean now, like, I mean I I've been in I've been making things for so long that i if you put something in front of me I guarantee you I could figure out how to make it. Like that was I mean I as an engine my engine work on engineering was reverse engineering too. People would bring us a product and they would say, We need this made so then it'd be trying to figure out how how it was made and then
than then making it again. So like I like it's kinda weird to apply like from like a mass production s standpoint. Like it was it it was always and like I say I generalize because I say it star it started with something mundane, it started something with more meaning, and now I'm trying to make things with the highest meaning. So the the I don't think the making changes, the applications and the the difference in medium definitely does. But there is always I mean
if I if you go into someone's house and you you see a chair that was made by hand, I mean I've there's if you know anything about carpentry, the amount of skill that goes into making chairs is I mean, it's a lot harder than making a communion rail or you know, i it's there's there's there's there's a level of craft in in in a in a lot of things that is people just kinda overlook because, you know, you buy it off a shelf somewhere or you you know, at a resale shop. But like there's
Craft is that's why I I try to generalize it to craft. Like people like, you know, are I I would say yes I am an artist, but I would say I beyond that I would say I'm a craftsman because like I'm always I'm always trying to I mean I don't work with just clay, I mean p but I guess it they would call me a mixed media artist if I I had a degree in it or something. But
speaker-0 (15:42.062)
Craft is important. It's I think it's a habit. Aquinas, they believed that art was a virtue. And a virtue is a habit. That's why they would call it the the the hobitus of art. So it's like I am I mean if you I mean that's and there is a definitely a there there is definitely on the level of virtue there's definitely a level of repetition that needs to be, you know,
applied to any discipline, which it's kinda funny that they call arts disciplines, you know, to increase your skill at it or to even, you know, begin to create. And you know, it like that sounds very scientific, but I mean you don't no no one ha like there are people that have natural talents, like you can p some guy picks up a guitar and he just can start playing.
Or there's the guy that sits there and practices night after night after night and he can still get to the level of a virtuoso. But like that I mean, music isn't art. That is a form of virtue or habit or repetition in which it takes. So I mean I am I've always been a bit hard nosed and I think I ha I have I have a little bit of natural talent, but I'd say I try to I've taken most of it by conquest and a lot of failure and hard lessons learned. So I I I just I think that's just really
There's a you know, and the like there is a virtue, there is a habit, there is a discipline to it. Can anyone be an artist? I don't can anyone make? Yes. Can everyone be an artist? I don't know. I I don't think so. like I said, I've I've always been creatively inclined. I mean, when I was a little kid, my mom my mom did she went to art school and she taught me how to draw faces, and as soon as I learned how to draw a human face, I was always drawing human faces. I could just never get the nose right.
I mean our art was one of my favorite classes in high school. was not good at math, which is ironic 'cause I do a a lot of my current professional life I do a lot of math now, but
speaker-0 (17:46.316)
But you know, and like it it's interesting too, you know, the deeper I got into making, the more I found it as I mean for me it's it's literally a form of therapy. I mean I it professionally, I mean I'm you know, I do I dwell more on the engineering and management and and accounting side of a business. and I I push a lot of pencils, we'll say that. But I can never
go too long without trying to get my hands dirty, at least in my personal life and and and I I call it keeping the callus on my hands. And that's that's a very important part of maintaining sanity. I mean when I was when I was a single man, one of my vacations that I would do because I mean I was in my throughout my twenties I was just a workaholic. I'll all I did was work. I worked out, I went home, I slept, I went back to work. Like my my job was my life.
And so my form of vacation was is I there was I would go to a mon a Benedictine monastery for like two weeks at a time and they monks have no concept of time, which is the only time they know is like the the liturgy and which it would take me like a week in the mountains of of where was it? It's in New Mexico. Out in the mountains of New Mexico, no phone service, nothing.
No internet, nothing. Could could had no contact with the world. And you they would just have me moving rocks around or or doing some task and I would ask them when it needs to be done by and they're Yeah, we don't we don't care. And I'm like, What do you mean you don't care? It's like what's the what's the deadline? Like we need to we need to figure this out. There's a more efficient way to move these rocks and they're like, Nah, we don't care. Just move them over here. And and it it's weird because the
They have no deadlines because they're there for the rest of their lives. Like the deadline is when they're dead. and but it just I mean, in a certain sense it's pure craft. Like, I mean I got to work on their wood shop there and like it was a fantastic experience just because I mean, like, the the the speed at which they do things is not at the speed that I had to do things in like the manufacturing world. Like I said, there was no deadline. The amount of care they put into things was
speaker-0 (20:08.994)
It was intensive and and like it's it was it was it it was an awesome experience. But that's how I unplugged was I would you know, I I would leave my pencils behind, I would go into the mountains for a while and I would just move piles of rocks or help them in the wood shop dimensioning wood. I mean I they do all sorts of stuff. I was running electrical wire, but I mean one time the one time I built a wall out of rocks and the next visit I was there they had me move that wall somewhere else. So
It was like a little bit of Mr. Miyagi. But no, it was great though. I I I I'm like I miss I miss going there. But I actually contemplated it but
Yeah, no, it's cool. I I actually contemplated a a vocation to the Benedictines for a while. 'cause I figured if I had a vocation I was just I I want to go lock myself away in the mountains. That was the ideal situation.
speaker-1 (21:03.446)
I learned from the the monks that they actually invented time, so to speak. They they invented clocks, but the reason they did it was to know when it was time to go pray. and it wasn't and this was something I wrote about in Liturgy of the Land, it wasn't until later when essentially, you know, the industrialization got a hold of clocks as a tool to really at first was to actually give give some people some space. Like you can't work them all the time, like they need some time to be human, but it
it it brought these these things, a basically a way of life into control so that it could be repeated, manufactured, you know, duplicated. And I didn't see I I never saw someone who had a different sense of time until I started hanging out with some farmers. And I found that farmers have the same like th there's this there's this guy, he's he's local, his name's Doug. It's an old dairy farmer. He makes fun of me constantly. but he
His ability to just sort of always be on doing the work that needed to be done, but also to just like sit and eat a watermelon when it was time to eat a watermelon. and the way that everything kind of went with seasons and need and what was in front of you was just I I've never seen anything like it. I ha I have a hard time adopting it 'cause in my mind that sort of nine to five, you know, grind is is what gets gets stuck in us. So yeah, I had a had a similar experience. So tell me, what do you think? I mean you're
It sounds like your job that you left a while back, making bones, would have probably by now been just like I'm guessing AI and and three D printing and like there's a slow erasure of the of the crafts themselves. So what do you think now that you're sort of coming out of that world and you're finding success in making things, like but the you know, the rise of all these, you know,
I don't want to call them tools because they're doing things without us, but you know, the the rise of these machines. what do you think we're losing? 'Cause you gain you gained something late in life. To become a sculptor late in life, you're now able to reflect in a way that someone who who didn't gain that late, right? They never they never had they were never without it, you know, if they just or or they d they don't know what it means to to gain it late. Like what are we missing, those of us that that don't have the the habitus of craft?
speaker-0 (23:28.942)
I mean this is you know, I can go back to Toking, this is usually where I fall first and you know, he talks about I mean he's talking more specifically in writing, but I mean his idea was is an old one and like when when you make it's subcreation. And like it doesn't matter in a certain sense how main mundane that making is, like, it's important to make because you you in a certain sense i it is what
It is what God Himself does and did and continues to do. He he he created and he sustains creation. And it is natural for us to to continue to make things, to take an idea, no matter how simple it is. And there's something incredibly satisfying, at least for a man, to like you know, I I have an idea for I mean, I just built my wife my wife a sewing desk, right? So I mean I saw pictures, I looked at things, I did a little sketch, and then I made it.
I I pulled it out of my head from a concept of an immaterial thing and I made it into a material thing. And there's something and you know, some projects go really well and like I probably can count on one hand like the amount of projects that have like and I c you it's funny I can say I'll talk to other craftsmen about this and like you y there's sometimes then you have an idea and it just comes out perfectly and it's just it just happens so so well.
And like it just is and when it's done you're like, Wow, this is like you didn't have to compromise the design at all. You didn't have to tweak things. It just it just came out perfectly. And when that happens, it is just so incredibly satisfying. And like I mean the the process of doing it, I mean like with art, specifically with sculpture, I mean
For me, I mean I don't I don't carve. So like there's guys that will take like a block of wood or stone and and and reduce around and carve from that. So I use clay, so I'm just guy and there's a lot more room for error in that. But like when I'm done with the clay, now like there is a whole that was step one. Step one is sculpting it. Step then there's there's about ten other steps to get that to a finalized piece of art that can be painted because now it
speaker-0 (25:39.19)
It has to be you know, you have to set it up for molding, you have to d create a a a mother mold for it, you know, you have to make sure that in your setup like nothing is you're not gonna have any voids, you might end up cutting the statue apart, and then you have to think about well now that I cut this arm off of this crucifix, now I have to figure out how to attach back on to the final product. Like, there is a I mean
it's not it's not just just making something out of clay. Like there is a whole entire process of turning that thing into what goes into a church that is much more akin to what I mean, you're doing stuff that is in a in a wood sh like you're doing woodworking or at least basic carpentry, you're doing resin casting, you're doing silicone molding. Like there's a whole whole series of things that is involved in just rep in like making one statue.
And like I mean the same goes so I mean like with with AI abominable intelligence that is I mean it like there's a huge I mean I I don't wanna I I I just saw this the other day on Substack. someone posted the the the the it's like the Thomist or the Aquinas, the T to Tomistic Institute of Art. They post their annual they posted a a flyer for their annual
art competition and the image is AI generated. And it's like come on guys. No. Like could have used at least last year's winner but like I AI generated art I think is an abomination. there is like so like especially okay once again we're dealing with you're dealing with levels of craftsmanship, right? So like I can build
speaker-1 (27:17.79)
Why? Tell me more.
speaker-0 (27:29.166)
I can build a cup, right? I can I can make a cup, I can make it out of bronze, I can put jewels on it, I can make it solid gold, I can make the most beautiful cup that is I can make a I can make a 400 I can make a million dollar cup, right? But what's and that's a very high level of craftsmanship. It could take me ten years to make this cup, right? But what is a higher level of craftsmanship is to make a chalice.
for the for mass, right? Because now it's not just a cup anymore, it's a chalice, and it's a chalice that participates in the function of the holy sacrifice of the mass. And I mean it's going to hold the blood of God in it. So like there is there is a level above the in function at least of of what that piece is going to do. So just like I mean I I have a buddy of mine who I's he he's talking about AI generated prayers. Like
Prayer and like I this is something that this is gonna follow into what craft is as well. Like prayer is is like the the the catechism basic definition of prayer is it's the lifting up of the heart and mind to God, right? So it's it's it's an intellectual thing, it's an act of the will, the act of the intellect, and you you you you're literally just I mean in its basic sense you're just paying attention to God. Like I'm God I'm gonna pay attention to you now. but it's it's it comes from
from the soul, right? So it comes from the person, it comes from the individual. So like I can't get on Chat GPT. If I get on Chat GPT, I can say, Chat, like generate a prayer for me on craftsmanship or something like that, right? And it'll probably it'll it'll scour the internet and I can I can say write a prayer for craftsmanship based on Thomas Aquinas and medieval philosophy of art and it'll probably spit out
A really nice prayer, right? And I could pray that prayer. But that prayer is coming from something that is completely artificial. At best at best it's some it is stolen things from a thousand other prayers and stitched them together into some sort of Frankenstein prayer. but at best it's still not it's still not coming from me.
speaker-0 (29:49.024)
I could get down on my knees in my shop and say, God, this is the worst prayer ever, but I am a craftsman and I really need your help today. my saw broke and I can't find my tape measure and you know I don't know where my pencil is either and it's in my hat the whole time. but it I could say that and like that that and and technically not technically, objectively speaking, that is that is a higher prayer than anything Chat GBT could create.
because it comes it comes from the soul. It comes from the individual. It's it's real. It's like what like one of the things about artif artificial intelligence is it's artificial. The same thing with art. It's literally just stitching things together. There's nothing real about it. And like art is a
how do you art is I mean to to the with art to say to say you're trying to make art there comes with a to say you're an artist, there is a there is a responsibility to that. And like I think it's been diminished by modern art because, you know, I can put a I can duct tape a banana to a wall and that's worth a million dollars. You know, that's the real thing. They did duct tape a banana to a wall.
And they sold it. And it it rotted. It it rotted away after a few days. Imagine. Imagine. Imagine, right? but you know, there's this, you know that that type of art is kind of dis diminished the importance of art, I think, in a certain sense. But like if you're saying I'm an artist and I'm going to make art, like you were saying I am now committed to truth, beauty, and goodness. And dis if you're a Catholic and you say that, now you're saying I am, you know
you you're trying to take the word incarnate and incarnate it into a material thing. You're you're trying to you're trying to take the intangible, the infinite, and you're trying to compress it into something finite to help other people see the your your little piece of the infinite that you might have managed to cram into like a statue or a painting or a a a poem or
speaker-0 (32:06.118)
a or or a piece of music. Like that is that is the purpose of art, it in in my opinion, the liturgical art. Is it is to take the infinite and to compress it into the finite. Which in and of itself is a could total exercise and futility. but we try nonetheless. And like there is a I there's a there's a philosopher, Jacques Maritain, and he talks about like there you know, everyone talks about the suffering artist.
There is a there is a certain level of pain because I mean I would say that I always joke with people, I tell I suffer from acute idealism. and because, you know, as a as a as a as an artist, as a as a guy trying to make art, like, I have I have an idea in my head. I have this ideal. And like the idea comes from meditating and contemplating on
on an image or an idea or a concept that I'm trying to convey. I mean it it took here, for instance, it took me two and a half years to sculpt my second crucifix. And it was I think it was a seven or eight month process just to do the f the face. And that was it was not from lack of getting the right face, it was from trying to get the right expression in the face. And it was a the that that that in and of itself is a j it's a j it's your your your
You're taking once again, it's craftsmanship, taking an idea and you're making it manifest. And then when you're trying to convey a certain idea with an image, it's like you're y with an ordinary chair, you're not like trying to convey the idea of like what the perfect chair is. It's like, okay, can is it strong enough for me to sit in? Does it look relatively nice? Is it proportionate? You know, great, cool. It the chair functions. A lot of things we do just for functionality. But when you think of like the functionality of a crucifix inside of a church
This is the center of the church. It is going to help the faithful, or at least it should help the faithful, form their idea of God and what that means. It's going to be if it's a main altar crucifix, it's usually hanging above the altar. So the it's it's right above the the the most incredible thing that happens in the world every single day. And that it should it's gonna help people form their idea of Christ. So if you mess that up
speaker-0 (34:24.108)
Like that's a that's a big mistake. Like it's a very it's a heavy responsibility. So I mean, I remember once someone asked me about a year and a half into me sculpting the crucifix, they're like, Is it done yet? And I said, No, it's not and they're like, When do you think it'd be done? I'm like, I don't know, honestly. And they said, Well, why is it taking you so long? I said, Well, I mean I said, Try to sculpt the perfect Christ and they're like, Well, I can't do that I said, Neither can I like but I'm trying It's
And that's you know, you you you fight that the you fight that idealism as an artist because you're you're wrestling with you're wrestling with the with the with an impossible task in a certain sense as a like as a liturgical artist. And but I mean you don't we don't you don't shy away from it in the same sense. You have to tackle it like you you have to you have to wrestle God in a l in a in a certain sense. But like there's as Jacques Martian said, there's a tension. And like
Because the artist and like there's like a string between the artist and God. And in order to pull God closer to you, you you have to pull on the rope. And you pull on that rope and it creates tension. And that tension causes a bit of pain. And you're holding on for dear life to that rope, trying to pull God a little closer to you. And the only way he gets closer is by you holding on and pulling. And like it c it's a significant effort from yourself and like
There's a lot of there's a lot of thought that says that, you know, like the the I mean it's it's as much of a spiritual thing as it is a physical thing. It's very sacramental, I would say.
speaker-1 (36:00.294)
One observation I would have from your comments, I mean, yeah, the the whole problem even with the word artificial is like art is artificial a house is artificial, right? Anything that is not anything because it's it's the root is man. It's man doing something. Artifact, artificial, art, all these words, artisan. It's like the stuff that we're making.
And almost the biggest as as I'm listening to you, it's artificial intelligence, yeah, it's probably going to crank out like a better prayer than we could functionally, but it's just cranking it out. And all right, let's just for for what well whatever. Let's just say it does it better so you can use the AI. I think the problem might actually be to not have men like yourself actually d having that tension. it's sort of like what gets lost you know, I would argue when society loses
its connection to the land, right? To to a to the place, to a place itself that we w it's hard for us to argue in the modern sense, in the modern mind, it's hard for us to argue, well, why is that important? But once that snaps, we can only look backwards and go, it's not good that we are now formed at disconnected feet off the ground, total artificiality, so that the way that God speaks, which is through the his creation,
We can't hear it anymore. We're completely right in this bubble. And you lose that when you're not when society is not made up of farmers or connection to the land or just, you know, reality. And what if if we had a a sort of society made up without craftsmen, and you're bringing up a really good point, it's not just that the high arts, it's the low arts. It's like what what is society gonna look like when no one knows how to make anything? I I think it's a society that doesn't know what man is anymore.
speaker-0 (37:46.638)
Well, it's you know, we're we're constantly like artificial intelligence is just the next step in us detaching ourselves further from what is real. And like that's why I say it's kind of a blasphemy in a certain sense, because like even with social media, my wife was talking to one of her friends and like they're talking about like she j her friend just started reading a book on it w it was like it it's someone took screw tape letters and turned it into some author and made it about
the devil like took the theme of it and made it about a devil trying to tempt a woman. And like one of the things is talking about like the the woman's attraction to social media, which I mean I'd say we're all in it. But like, you know, she's talking to her friend about social media and her friend says, you know, it's hard to disconnect from it 'cause I feel like I'm part of a community and all the little groups I am in. And like you think about that. And it's like, you have a community. Like we have a community. Like we have our local community.
Like we have the local guys or women or or people around us that are our community. And like we're going to literally online communities where we never will meet these people. It's not real. It's artificial. Well, I mean video games, artificial. I mean w we're we're we're in we're in VR virtual reality video games now too, which is completely I mean that's like
That's like another level to video games back bac back when I played video games, just had a controller, and now you like put on a headset and you're like immersed fully in the world. But like all these things are slowly pulling us away from reality. And like that's why I mean there is a certain like I have r as a guy like a craftsman, I respect anyone who makes anything. Like it doesn't matter in a certain sense of how poor of a job that they've done. Like I mean I've seen guys that have built like
bars and benches and like they look absolutely horrible, totally structurally unsound, but like they're so proud of the fact that they made it because they did it with their hands. There's something different. There is like and you that that's why it's important to make. Because like you were saying it is we are losing touch. We're not grounded anymore. We're we're we're separated from i it's just another level of separation. And like AI is like is it gonna th I just had a heard of priest who was just he was ripping into it. He's like, you know
speaker-0 (40:05.548)
We don't know how to use maps anymore, like we don't know how to f like think anymore, we don't know how to research anymore. We just Google things. You know, you like you literally ask that that phone of yours for more advice on stuff than, you know, any one of your friends. And like that's a weird thing, is AI has like its original highest use was creativity, now it's companionship. So like now we're just using AI to be our best friend, which is even stranger. And like you w like
Craft making things is important because yeah, you're right. Like you said, it it grounds us. And like and that's why I say it's that's why I say blasphemous, because there is a sacramental nature to the world, meaning we have spiritual things and physical things, right? And the physical thing has a spiritual effect. So everything we do is like Catholic men, every physical thing we do, there is a spiritual ramification for that. So I can't not think that it is holy and pleasing to God for
for man to make to for him to to for him to know to to to know and use the world around him in a in a in a way that he he reflects the act of the father in creation. Like God God looks on that and he smiles upon it. And that's like that's where w we're losing that. And like it's w now it's like A AI is like it's the it's like an inversion of sacramental al of the of the sacramental nature. It's like
There there is no physical thing anymore and but there's almost i it's just we're just ripping it out. It's still it's like, you know, you can't you we're we're pulling ourselves away. We just rather watch I mean, kids watching videos of kids playing with toys on YouTube. Like
speaker-1 (41:54.024)
When you put it like that, you realize how you Well, I always I've I've there's certain things I refuse, right? Like I I'm not doing the selfie thing. And I cause and I remember I remember one of my kids said, What is a selfie? And I said, It's a picture of a person taking a picture of themselves. Right? It's like when you say out loud what's happening. This is why I actually just so you know, I mean, I got I I'm big against GPS. I've got my dumb phone here, I'm just proving my my brothers. But I'm delighted.
At what is happening with AI, because one, and I the my friends have been really confused by that because I'm a little bit of a Luddite. I'm a you I'm I'm the pig killing backwoods, you know, mentor. but I think what it's doing is expos it's it's going it is destroying the internet. Like the internet right now is imploding. No one knows what's real, everyone's confused, everyone's talking about it, it's everyone's like mad but still using it. And it's sort of just doing what the internet has done, which is to like consolidate
compute, feed it back to you so that it can sell you advertising. Like it's all it's ever been doing. yeah. Because I have a I have a huge problem just social media. I mean you bring up a great point. I my wife, I've asked her this question. She's like, it's a very challenging question, especially especially to the housewives attracted to social media saying, what would you do if you didn't have it? Right? I mean what what would you do if you weren't doing that? You know, and the answer would be well we'd probably do what humans do, right? so the
The act of consolidating and feeding something back to us, I think the whole time, all this social media stuff, the reason we can now talk to robots and thing is because we weren't ever really talking to each other in the first place. Communication and on social media, it was never tr it was never communion. It had a certain efficiency to it, has a certain functionality to it that I suppose, you know, I I I sympathize like
speaker-0 (43:31.534)
No I yeah
speaker-1 (43:45.206)
It would be a bad idea for you to not have social media presence because that's how you're probably gonna sell your art, right? Probably be a bad idea. so you
I can tell your website. I'm like, what is this website? Come on, man. I am too. I am. Just pay somebody to do it. Just have s then then you can stay out of it. That's my theory. By the way, if you have to use social media, pay an expert in it so that you don't have to get sucked into the matrix. Exactly. Anyway, you use the matrix to escape the matrix. All right. So you're I I I won't going back to your kind of your story though, you I can't believe you said
Well, I'm guessing your kids must be six, 'cause you said I didn't start sculpting 'til I had kids.
speaker-0 (44:27.8)
But my oldest is five. She's turned five.
speaker-1 (44:30.1)
Five. Okay. Okay. So I cannot imagine teaching myself to start sculpting like when I had a baby. I mean, that that's that's an amazing feat. but like why why did I guess my question is like why I I don't know if you said this, but like why did you do that?
speaker-0 (44:43.704)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (44:51.834)
that it just like I said, it was providential that I think like I said, it it's it's a little bit symbolic. Like my kids my kids grow up in a house where there's always a project being built in the garage. like the the way I well here, let me let me go back a little bit first. So soon after I was married a priest came in to give a series of talks on marriage. and he was just travelling through.
And I met him, he was super cool, he's this German priest. And I told him, you know, I introduced myself. I'm like, Yeah, I'm an aspiring liturgical artist. And he goes, Don't do it. He's like, Are you married? I Yeah, he's Don't do it. And I'm like, What? But I what do you mean don't do it? And he goes, It takes too much. He's like, It ta it takes too much. He's like, It'll take the focus away from your family. That's your vocation. And like you're you'll you'll be you might be consumed by your art and you're gonna neglect your family. And
I was very cognizant of that. I mean my dad was an entrepreneur, so he was I mean, due to the nature of being a business owner, he was always he had to work. Work was the first priority. If he wasn't working, he wasn't bringing home the bacon and we weren't gonna eat. And so he he you know, he did a very good job as a father. We didn't he didn't spend but he didn't get to spend as much time with us as we wanted to. So like one of my goals as a father is I wanted like, you know, I I wanna I wanna spend as much time as possible with my kids.
especially in this day and age where once again, if I'm not spending time with them, eventually they're gonna find their way in front of some piece of glass, some looking glass to to find something else that will replace me. but so I told him, Well, I try to do my art with my kids. Like I I don't I incorporate I'm cognizant of this father and I I like my my vocation as a husband and a father comes before.
for my voc w what I consider a vocation is as an artist. He said, okay, that's good. He's like, if that's the case, that's fine. He's like, but as soon as it starts to take, you precedence, like, be be wary. 'Cause it can co it can consume you. So like there is Play Doh and then there's doing clay with daddy. So like I will literally take my st whatever statue I'm working out at the time, I will pull it out out of the table and my kids will sit with me for two or three hours and we will just do clay. And
speaker-0 (47:04.184)
That's how I I incorporate it into my family life too, so I could still pursue it, but at the same time, not let it affect me affect my vocation as a father negatively. 'Cause I mean it is there is a there is I mean there's this famous painting of f the the painter f which is ironic. Frau Angelico. He was a monk. I mean we think medieval, early Renaissance.
And like he's sitting in it's him and he looks like he's he's painting a wall, he's painting a mural, and he's sitting on a a what do you call it? Like a scaffold and he's just on his knees and he's just crying. And some people are look at that and they're like, Wow, he's just weeping at the beauty of his own art and I'm like, No, he's actually crying because he probably can't get what he wants out of the image.
Like I know how that feels. And th like it's it hurts. There's a cer like I said, I talked about that tension. There's that tension. And like it's hard to incorporate that into and and keep it under control and still fulfill my responsibilities as a father and a husband. Because I have to keep it I have to keep that contained. I have to keep it disciplined. And it you know, it's funny the it it's always weird because, you know, like I'm like I you know, I I always say I'm a time I'm a time poor dad.
but you know, the more time I invest into my family, it seems like the more time I have for art, which is I I don't know how that works. It's like the multiplication of the times. but like if I'm if I'm focusing more on my family, I find in in an in an I always find time for art somehow. I I don't know how that works. I find energy for it, like I'm awake and you know, like i i it it manifests itself. And I think that is
I think that's a matter of keeping things properly ordered. So like I mean for as far as like
speaker-1 (49:03.746)
What do you mean by focus on them? You mean like I'm just gonna think about them, I'm gonna give them attention, I'm gonna make clay with them, like 'cause I I I'm hearing your story and thinking about a lot of dads 'cause you you said you were a workaholic, now you got these kids you're trying to give attention to. Men want to work. I think one of the worst things about the modern work thing is that we have to like make this choice all the time between like I'm either focusing on the thing I have to do or the thing I should do. So what do you mean you focus what does that look like?
speaker-0 (49:32.574)
I mean, for one, I've I've I've I try to schedule time in for my kids. Like as soon as I get home from work, there's a fifteen minute period where I have to face my son in single combat with foam weapons to the to to the almost death to the fake death to the death. But like that is like, you know they they always like here, so if I'm sitting in my office and I have some time to work and I'm working on something
And I'm just sitting in there and sculpting or I'm painting something or I'm trying to design, I'm drawing something out, or sketching. And they come in and they say, Hey Daddy, and I'm like, daddy's busy. Okay. And then they go away. And then then then they come back. They're Hey Daddy and I'm like, Okay, well, you know what, okay, Daddy's busy, go away. When I start to get annoyed
It's because they keep coming in here and they're asking for my attention because they're my kids and they need my attention. So when I really start getting annoyed, I'm like, okay, it's time to stop. And like, yeah, I mean we're all like there's this, you know, the the great myth of the work life balance, that promised land that I have not yet found or attained. I mean I'm all I'm like you know, it's we we're we're essentially we are all wage slaves, so we have to work 'cause we have to bring home and provide for our families. But like at a certain point
You know, I mean what's what's the most important thing? I mean you have to provide for your family, but like if you're not spending time with your kids, like focusing on my kids, yeah, is giving them attention. Like it's being present with them. Like I mean, it is very difficult I mean, like most nights the struggle for me is like we get I get through the whole entire day and it's I'm an early riser, so like nine o'clock is kinda late for me.
Excuse me. But so it's nine o'clock and my wife's tired 'cause she's been chasing children around all day. I'm tired because I've been working all day and then I come home and it's kids and then it's nine o'clock at night and now we actually need to spend some time together because, you know, we have to be we're we're not just disgruntled co workers. We're you know, we're we're in love. Right? And
speaker-0 (51:46.356)
It it's you know, and then it's like, all right, and then we're gonna we're gonna fall asleep talking to each other on the couch or something. But like and then, you know, no no art happens that day and it's like, okay, so be it. but you know, that that that balance, I mean my my my default is just prioritize my family and then the rest of it will fulfill out time. I'm like there's periods where it's like okay, okay
Babe like, I gotta come home and I gotta work and I gotta get this done. It's on a timeline, it's on a deadline. Or she says, I want this done, I need you to go into the garage. Or she knows it's kinda weird. If I spend two if I if I if I am starved of doing something creative, I get grumpy. so there's times when she just says, You're going to the garage tonight. So she just sends me into the garage to just make s just cover myself in sawdust and you know, make something.
Or sculpt, because like I you know, that's a a it in unfortunately I'm a creative person so I have to kinda I have to get that energy out some way. And if I don't it it it frustrates my personality. But yeah, I just I try to I I do my best to choose my family over what I want to do, which is I mean if it was I mean if this if this was, you know, twenty years ago and I was a single man, I would just be, you know, I'd come home, I would slam six energy drinks and I'd be up till three in the morning working on this and then
Get two hours of sleep and then wake up and slam more energy drinks and keep going. But I mean, do I do that some nights? Yes, but I have to keep that under control because, you know, still have to provide a living for my family. So Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-1 (53:23.158)
Alright, I'm gonna shift that's that's good advice. That's a that's a father. The family first, but the stages and the the wisdom we gain only from doing it. That's just that's good advice.
speaker-0 (53:27.618)
Yeah, family first.
speaker-0 (53:35.466)
I haven't even I haven't even entered like sports and club stage like level for my kids yet. So I'm sure they'll there'll be a whole you know another series of challenges with what I want to do and giving them what they need when that happens. But like on the same token that my kids are gonna grow they they they do this with me as much as they can.
mean if I'm in the shop, me my son's three years old, there's not much he can do. He's more scared of the sound of the saws than anything if I'm in the if I'm working in my in my garage. But like on the same token he wants to be a part of it. He wants to kids that's like the s the silliest thing that we kind of ignore as adults. It's like the kids just wanna be present with you sometimes too. So like it it might just be I mean this morning I was I had to dig out an old fire pit and move it. and my kids like
I'm I'm there with a shovel just trying not to cover them in ash and cinder blocks and they're just there with their little plastic shovels just digging along with me. Is it annoying? Yes. Does it make it go slower? Totally. But like on the same token, like that's gonna it's important for them to be with me doing things. So like I I allow it. I allow the inconvenience. And I think that's part of being a a dad too, is like, you know, there they're it is important for I mean
I mean sons and daughters, but like even y especially your sons is like, you know, to take them with you to do things. Because that like that that is that is in and of itself it is always inconvenient. I mean, it's it's like you know, like I mean I try to teach I'm trying to teach a five and a three year old dry brushing techniques and painting and contrast painting. And I don't know why, but I'm just doing it because I w they wanna make they see me I've I do dioramas too, it's like another hobby. Everyone all my hobbies are making.
I don't know if you know what dioramas are. They're like little miniature sceneries. I I do for my wife for like which my wife says that's she I'm the worst person to buy gifts for 'cause I make everything for her. but I did I did like I did like a Lord of the Rings Christmas diorama and now all they want to do is dioramas with me. So I'm trying to teach them how to like paint like small miniatures and stuff and
speaker-0 (55:45.1)
They I mean they like and this started because like I'm I'm trying to understand how to do it. So like any man today, I'm on YouTube watching videos. So like, hey, how do I I'll jump on YouTube, YouTube university. So I'm watching a video on making miniatures, so then they gather around me and we're watching a video of as they call it, a guy making stuff. And and th this is one of the reasons I started doing dioramas with them is because of this. 'Cause like
Then it turned into them asking me, Hey Dak, we watch a video of a guy making stuff. I'm like, Okay, I guess that's better than, you know, everything else that's out there. So now we're constantly watching videos of guys making dioramas. And then I'm like, my gosh, my kids are turning into YouTube kids and I am I am cultivating this and like I am a I'm I'm a creative guy, I'm a craftsman, I'm an artist. Like wha what am I doing? So I'm like, you know what? We're gonna make dioramas. And like it's so funny.
Because one, you gotta teach a five and a three year old how to make a diorama, which is hilarious in and of itself. But also, every time they watch a video, a guy a a process that takes days if not weeks to do is compressed into a nine minute video. They thought that they were gonna be able to make a diorama in about nine or fifteen minutes.
And now they have to realize that this is a days long process. Like, first we have to sculpt out this and then you have to glue it and you gotta let it dry. And then we're gonna put our base coat of paint down, and that's gonna take a day to dry. So we're not gonna be able to touch this till tomorrow. Like, what about the next step? I'm like, we're gonna do that tomorrow. And like they understand that things actually take time to do. And like that's the d there's like here, once again, the danger of the artificial world. If I just let my kids watch diorama videos their whole life,
They will always say, that's so cool, and they'll have no concept or idea how it's done. But now that, you know, they're three and five years old and of the ripe age to of course to start doing this, it's they they actually get to do it. And like in in my in my opinion, a lot of a lot of making a lot of making anything, people are just like, I can't do that. And I'm like, yeah, I thought I couldn't do it too until my brother told me to learn how to hold a tape measure, and then I learned.
speaker-0 (57:58.528)
And I taught my s and I failed. And I learned and I failed and I learned and I failed. And like and I learned some more. And like I you just get better and better and better at it. And now, you know, I mean I've run I've run world class mill work sho I ran a wo a world class mill working shop. We did h all the wood in high end restaurants and casinos. I did that for a few years. And like, you know
Incredible cra like you talk about craftsmen, like I mean I'm at I'm at I'm I would say I would I'm at journeyman level in a certain sense. There are just there's guys that are just masters out there with I mean, like hand tools, chisel work, and like knowing like how to perfectly fit a joint. I mean the guy that started the company who was the owner, I mean, the guy was a genius when it came to wood. But like you can walk into a place, you can look at a piece of furniture or some trim on the wall, and you can say, wow
I can see how that's very well done and I can understand that on the level of how it was made. Like that is the advantage of being a craftsman. Then you can walk into places and you just see like misaligned trim and I'm like every time me and my wife go to a restaurant, I'm like looking underneath to see if the table top is actually solid wood and she's like I can't take you anywhere and I'm I'm sorry, I can't help myself. But
speaker-1 (59:08.782)
Yeah, my son's I had them we we found so when we were building our house, we ran out of money at the end. so we got the cheap the cheapest everything. I mean like the paint job was the terrible. The floor was like one step up from laminate paper, floating floor. You know, we had just it was awful. But it was it's like a nice house, but like all the the final touches
We're really just cheap and ugly and fast. And so we found we found in a thrift store though. I was at a thrift store one day and there was a pallet of brand new hardwood floor. not out of the box, like at the thrift store. And I like it's the bas long story short, exact square feet that we needed, which like triggered then we had to like then we did the tile and all stuff. So my sons, I'm like, I don't have time to do this whole project. So in the morning we got started. I get them going on the first couple rows.
And they learned how to do tile and they learned how to do hardwood. Right. So now what's funny is we go everywhere and they're like, You see the gaps in this floor? Like damn these Yeah. Sand of Hotel Peter's like that's he's like the tile that tile's not even real. That's not even real tile. It's faux tile. Like they're exactly so it's amazing what that does. And I would encourage Sue, the one thing you said is I think recognizing
speaker-0 (01:00:10.37)
Gaps, Dad.
speaker-1 (01:00:26.424)
You know, when our kids want to work with us, one I think men need to have something that they can give in that way. Right. When when Jesus says, I must be about my father's business, there's something profound in that. Like A Aquinas, when he's answering the question, like why should we pray? Like why does God want us to pray? It doesn't change his mind. This is how Aquinas puts it. It's not changing his mind. it's not informing him something that we don't he doesn't already know. Like there's really good questions. Why would you even do this?
why am I why does he want me to pray for this thing? And he wants to give it in that way. And Aquinas' explanation is essentially the craftsman that as a father invites his children in to work with him, the way that God is communing with you in prayer is actually that you're joining his work. And it's not that I mean, if you ever work with a kid, they're super inefficient, they're terrible, they're in the way, they don't know what they're doing. They're but that is how so when we pray and things in sort of
speaker-0 (01:01:19.448)
Distract.
speaker-1 (01:01:25.026)
God does things through our prayer. It's not that He didn't have another way to do it. It's that as a as your son, he invited you into that work. Now you share it. So we work with our kids. It's and it's hard, man, because you you probably feel this too, having like multiple jobs, multiple projects. they're in the way to love to like recalibrate and know this this is the work I'm sharing with them. This is how we commune with each other as father and son. You know, it's it's that
speaker-0 (01:01:53.366)
It's and like I think that there is a Yeah, no, no, that's totally I mean it's like that that's why I said there's a very sp there in a s in a certain sense is a very spiritual dimension to any any form of craftsmanship. And that's why like I mean like art like like I said, you know, you can when after you like na your sons your sons have an appreciation for something as simple and as difficult as flooring. Like they have an appreciation for it.
They understand something now. And now because they understand and they have done it, they have practiced it, it's they can identify it. And like that's where, you know, where something as simple as a a f a really well done like I mean here, you go into a church, like you walk into a basilica, like there is there is tons of different trades going into that. I mean, from something as simple as electrical and plumbing down to stone carving, tile work, woodwork.
like carpentry, I mean, in someone might not look at how all the pews are constructed, but like until you actually construct a p th it's like they're like, it's like three pieces of wood. I like how hard is that? You just put it together. And like maybe they did like a carving or something on it and you're like, that's cool. you know, that then that makes the pew a little stand out a little more. But like if you've actually gone through the process of making pews, like it is incredible.
Incredibly difficult. Like there is a whole bunch of stuff that goes into just constructing something as simple as a pew. And like I that's the funny thing. You look at the cost of brand new pews versus the cost of used pews, and it's like used pews, people like you can't you people are paying you to take them out of their churches. Like brand new pews are crazy expensive because of the amount of work that goes. It's not necessarily the material, it's the amount of time that goes into making it. And, you know, that's like
The only difference between the difference I almost say the only difference. The difference the difference between craftsmanship and then when you get into the church into a church and making things for a church is like there are certain there's technically certain rules to art, which it's kind of paradoxical and I don't know if we really want to get into that. But like it's also the intentionality of everything that's inside of a church, because it's directed towards God.
speaker-0 (01:04:15.938)
So like that is there is in a certain sense in a lot of things you would do, there's the same amount of skill that goes into building a a a good table as building a good altar. But like the only differences is the intentionality and probably the the thinking out the decoration of that altar and making sure it is fitting as fitting as possible for God. Because I mean, that's a thing. I mean, we live in a mass produced society. So like most churches, like all like candlesticks, it's mass produced. They're just you're buying
the cruits, the mass produced. Everything everything everything in the church is mass produced. And like there it wasn't too l it was not too long ago that everything in the in in in the church was made specifically by the local people for the church. Like you helped make your church. Like you you you
Ordinary men and women came together, the women were the women were making the alt the altar linens. And like, yeah, we could just buy that online, but like what how important is it to make the altar linens? And like there's the material, like the like the quality of the material, the the amount of care that goes into it. I mean, that altar linen that someone made Could have the blood of God spilt on it. Might just get dropped on it. And like
You could be the person to go and make that. Like you could be the man to make the kneelers. And like I've I've made kneelers. They're super annoying. But I make I made the kneelers. And all the kneelers, everyone kneels on those kneelers. Like that that now serves a function in the church to help people get closer to God. Like that's the
the responsibility and like the pride that you can take in actually contributing to your local church in that way is I mean, like it's it's you know, everyone I always say this, like there's like everyone talks about like the problems in the Catholic Church. And you know, th there's all these things going on left and right everywhere. And like I always like say, like, the problems in the Catholic Church are the problems in your Catholic Church. Like, those are the ones that
speaker-0 (01:06:35.308)
matter. Like those are the ones that you're actually going to be able to solve. Like it what are you going to do? Call like another council and then the Pope's like, yeah, Joe, that's a good idea. Like we should do totally have another council. Like it's like, no, like just go go like go go ac like once again, Sacramental. Be an actual part of your church. There's like I think like the statistic for participation in parishes is like five percent or something like that. And like
That's na that's like global. Like five percent of c like and then you know, everyone c talks about the problems in the church. It's like well only five percent of people are doing things. No wonder we have problems in the church. Like what if we had ten percent or like twenty? Like let's not even break fifty percent participation in the church and then let's see where we're at. Like you know, I mean it's Saint Augustine, you know, he had this my favorite quote. He said, Good times, bad times. Men are always talking about the times, but you know, the times are are
as we are. We are the times. If we are good, things will be good. So it's like there's a there is a sacramental responsibility upon all of us. Like if the church is, you know, if we see if we perceive in the church that there is fragmentation or disunion, like how unified are we with our own parish? How are we acting that out on a local level? I mean they say it with politics. Like global politics you'll never have an effect on, but local politics, that's how you affect the global
is by doing local. It's the same thing with the faith. You know, like we're we we our our churches need us. Like there's and like, you know, especially with with men, like men yearn for brotherhood. They yearn for community. Like you know and that manifests itself normally in like let's go get beers and hang out. But like there is a deeper level to that. And like I
For for guys, like I could say this to guides in the trades. Like, there's certain guys that I will work with that are experienced craftsmen. And as you're working together, you develop like this this flow. And it's weird. It's almost like you don't really have to talk to each other. You kind of just know what each other's doing. And it's like this very weird, like, synchronicity.
speaker-0 (01:08:53.653)
And like you just then you just start getting things done super well and fast and they're going good and then like you're not stopping and the job's just moving faster and faster and faster and then you're done and you're tired and now it's time it's time to drink a beer and and look at it and be like wow we just we just we just did that and we did it together. And there is like this there's an elation, there is a joy to that.
And it's like it's like you're you're particip I I I would say there's something spiritual about it in a certain sense because you're coming together with another man and you guys are making something in brotherhood. And like a lot of that only I would say like if you're in the trades, you probably understand that. Like I I've never had the experience where I'm working with another guy on an Excel spreadsheet and we've had that experience. I've made a lot of Excel spreadsheets, don't get me wrong. But like when you're working with your hands and that's happening, like that's like
It's cool. I mean what like it that's I I love that that is like you know, I g you know, my buddy John. I love John. And he he him and I I love you know what I love doing more than hanging out with him? I love working with him. Like we love to work together 'cause we have we have fun when we work together. There's a joy. We know when we work together like we're gonna get things done. We know that like there is a I don't know, it's just
We're gonna ha there's there's the concept, the idea that's in our heads. Now we're gonna come together, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna take our both our ideas of that. We're gonna create a cohesive one, and then we're gonna make the thing. And like and then it happens. And it's like there's a bit of magic to that in a certain sense. It's like I mean this is I I it's the joy of the craftsman. Like there is no I mean, the process might be difficult and brutal, like it it might be it might be absolutely
Agonizing. But like when you see the finished product and it's done and the idea has been manifested, like that's yeah. That's it.
speaker-1 (01:10:49.122)
Yeah, no, I think that's a good image for for fraternity. If any f I remember being young, you know, there are and there are people that, you know, I think striking a chord is, you know, when a chord is struck right, like, it's it's all those things are working together, sounds good. when you're working with someone and you're just kind of without thought, without communication.
Doing that. It is like a magic. And I remember growing up being one being able to sort of enter into that with my father and then seeing him do it with other men. And they were in they were it was like big heavy equipment, chainsaws, excavators, like there was no talking. And it's you know, and there's and there's an extension of strength and power that's actually kinda horrifying, but you know, knocking trees over, moving around. But when you see the fraternity of men that that have I think when men that are sort of stuck only in their spreadsheets, and I'm not against spreadsheets here, but
Trey Bailey is against spreadsheets, but when you're stuck there and you you don't get to share that commun I think when those guys stand on the edge of a work site or stand on the edge of craftsmen and they look in or they look in at two mechanics like addressing what's going on in a car and they don't have they they know there's a form of communion, a form of fraternity that they don't have when they look in from the outside. And they and they do want that. And the parish can be a place where the fraternity of men
can do that. And I would I I the experience we've seen in fraternists is that when you can actually frame if you frame to men like, hey, we need to get together 'cause men long for brotherhood, it's like, not really. They kind of don't. But when they when you think about like the nature of Christian fraternity, like Christian brotherhood, they're always building stuff. You know, the the the monks, what all right, hey we're gonna we're gonna like work in prayer, that whole or Ed Labor thing, it's really work and make stuff. Or pray, yeah, pray and make stuff.
You think of the medieval guilds, like the men that built and when men actually in our experience of fraternities, when they actually do get together and start taking their fraternities seriously, they tend towards the genius of the layman, which is I think hospitality and building stuff. They they know how to build. So Joe, if people want to find you, where can they go look? 'Cause I w I wanna point towards your stuff. 'Cause your website's terrible. I mean, hopefully by the time this comes out you've
speaker-0 (01:13:03.094)
Yeah. I gotta rectify that. I y well, I mean that's the thing. It's like, you know, you're you're you're trying to do the trying to kick start your own thing. You'd you have to be a you have to be you have to be doing everything all the time and like the website is one of the things that is neglected the most just due to the fact that the more I'm working on the website, the the less time I have for doing like as a as a time poor dad, like I have to make like it something usually gets sacrificed.
speaker-1 (01:13:29.754)
No more no no no more excuses. Just tell us how we can go by your stuff. Where we where can where can we f where can we follow you?
speaker-0 (01:13:36.458)
website catholicman art com. it is the same my Instagram handle is at Catholic Man Art and I am on Substack. I do t post on there as well and I kind of some of my more if I if I do any writing on craftsmanship art I put it on there and that's Rude Wright and that is was inspired right and it's rude R O O D right W I R G H T. Rude Wright. And
That's actually I did actually self publish a book recently, it was last year. And that was a set of st it was a set of stations of the cross and it has a more masculine flavor to it. it is was inspired by a a medieval poem called The Dream of the Rude, so it's called The Way of the Rude. So you could find that on Amazon if you're interested. But yeah, it was a a little more masculine interpretation of the Stations of the Cross, so
speaker-1 (01:14:32.662)
All right. I'm gonna I'm gonna go take a look at it. Joe, thank you for being on. Thank you for everyone listening to the Sword and Spade Podcast. If you're not a subscriber, go ahead and get the magazine in the mail. There's no need to just keep watching more content on screens alone. You need to you need to have something in your hand if if Joe's taught us anything, that's true. and if you also appreciate this, I wanna point to the apostolate of Fraternis. We welcome anybody to become a member, but we also love those that keep the lights on and help support us with their donations. So if you're a donor, thank you. And if you're not consider it.
Really appreciate it. Joe, thank you for being on the Sword and Spade podcast.
speaker-0 (01:15:07.522)
Yeah, I appreciate you having me. Thank you very much.