Season 3: Gen3 - Motion Capturing the Metaverse w/ Remco Sikemma

Have you ever wondered how 3D characters in your favourite films, games, & the Metaverse are made? Remco Sikkema talks about his experience spending time in the Metaverse and working with some of the biggest studios in the world on Motion Capture.

Show Notes

One of the biggest questions the world has been asking about the Metaverse is "Can the Metaverse imitate real human interactions?". A very important piece to answer that question is the ability to create human-like movements in the Metaverse, that's done through motion print and capture. Remco has been involved in solving this problem with his company Movella, looking at how avatars can experience simple body movements like eye contact, shaking hands, and walking hand in hand. These simple body movements can be the determinant of whether we spend more time in the metaverse or stick to our offline social life. Having worked with big projects like Black Panther, it's really important to see not only how motion print has a big role in the metaverse.

What is Gen3?

🧬 many call us the downfall of humanity, the disappointment of the century with our worship rocks and our inability to use uppercase letters. But we are more like captain marvel with our heroic liberalism, so, I welcome you to our genz podcast network!

Season 3: Gen3 - Remco Sikemma
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Gen three. Today we are going back to our roots, talking about the Web three and the Metaverse. I know we lost a couple of you in the last couple of months, but that's completely fine because the Metaverse and the Web three is constantly evolving. Some of the most talented people in the world, things are being built every day, even if you don't see it.

So today I have with me Ramco Sima. He is the senior marketing avatar at Mobile, and we're gonna be talking. All amazing things that are happening in the metaverse, his experience in the metaverse with motion capture and how things are gonna be turning, you know, from the business perspective into this new world or how companies are adopting this new technology.

So, welcome Remco to our podcast.

Thank you. And, uh, glad to be here. Nice. Awesome.

So tell me a little bit more about your Aramco. How did you get in the space? I know you've been with Mobile for about 13 years now, so you were, you know, at the very start of it all. When the company started adopting this technology.

How did you start getting into it? When did you start getting into it and walk me through that, You know, lifetime.

All right. Let me, let me try to keep it short and, and, and, and get 13 years of experience into, uh, one minute. But, um, Yes, yes. I've been in the, in the, in the company for, uh, in Indeed since 2009.

So it's 13 years almost. Mm-hmm. . Um, yeah. We are, uh, a company that does, uh, motion technologies and it's, it's in different segments. Um, but the, the segment that is, uh, that is related to this subject is, uh, motion capture. Motion capture means, Um, you can put it on a suit, a suit that we make. It's a tool that we make, so you put it on a suit, it's like a lyra suit, like a skating suit.

It has, uh, sensors embedded in the suit. And, uh, when you move your, uh, your, your movements are digitized and you can apply that then to an avatar. And, uh, this is how you know avatars are made, uh, to move natural. You know, it's used in game development. It's, uh, used for, um, for films, you know, films like, uh, like Ironman, like Black Panther.

They use our technology, the Mandalorian. Um, so it's, it's a very wide, uh, technology space that we are in. Um, and I'm doing the marketing worldwide. Mm-hmm. , uh, I'm doing marketing communications. Um, and, um, yeah, since, since like. Like a year or two, Uh, because I, I have a personal background in, in, in gaming and in comic as well as you see.

Um, and, um, uh, so I have a, a personal preference in it. So I'm, I'm diving into this and, um, because. Well, motion capture and the metaphors are kind of related. Mm-hmm. , it's like, uh, a little gear in a, in a full, um, in a full project. Mm-hmm. . Um, I started looking into it and, uh, I started making ve also be part of, of this metaphor.

And, um, yeah, that's how I came about. And I started, uh, sharing about the metaphors, about my ideas about my vision. Mm-hmm. . And I think it worked out fine because I've a good following on the, on LinkedIn now, uh, and well, I'm here, so Yeah. , apparently something went, uh, right. Um, so yes, this is, uh, this is what is happening.

Uh, and uh, yeah, metaphor is, is, well, you introduce it. Well, the metaphor, it's not here yet. It's still, still like, uh, a concept. Mm-hmm. . But things are progressing towards something that, that eventually could be called a metaverse. And I think there's a lot of, I call them mini verses, so, uh, that that could be considered something that could evolve into, uh, the metaverse.

So I think that's really interest. It's, it's a super interesting time that we're

in. Yeah. So a lot of people are, you know, fighting the idea of the metaverse because they don't understand really what people are trying to do with the metaverse. So are is, do you see that the technology is moving towards living our day to day lives?

You know, going to work meetings, um, you know, waking up in the morning to the metaverse, socializing in the metaverse? Is that kind of the, the, the route that we're taking? Is that what we're trying to build? Or is it more so how can we start integrating, um, more technology into, you know, our day to. Uh, workplace.

If we're doing remote working from all around the world, how can you create a virtual office? So what do you see the the, the Metaverse movement is going towards?

Yeah, I think it's a mix. You know what I always say, The metaverse is not like a thing or a platform. It's more like a way of living, you know?

Mm-hmm. , it's more, you know, So it's a lifestyle more so than, Yeah. It's more like a style, a future. Mm-hmm. , um, So at this moment, there's, of course, there's, there's offline life and there's online life, you know, and there's this, this, this, uh, distinction is really clear. You know, I'm either online or I'm offline.

Mm-hmm. . And there's, then there in between, there's a little bit the, uh, the social media, which also could be, you know, online, offline. But it's, it's pretty clear when I'm, you know, engaging in an, uh, in an offline, uh, event. . And at some point I think these barriers are becoming more gray. Like, okay, I am now talking to you, uh, on a, on a, on a podcast.

Mm-hmm. . But this could also be in, I could be in my room and you could be here like a hologram kind of style. Mm-hmm. , um, and. Are we then online or offline? You know, it's like a gray area that that, that we are becoming in.

So we can be sitting in a virtual room on the metaverse that we designed, that we call like our podcast studio.

And that could be like a podcast studio in our own metaverse that we create. And that could be like our podcast setup

essentially. Yeah, that could be so many. Kinds of setups, you know? Mm-hmm. , I could be, you know, virtually in your room where you're now, and we could be sitting next or against each other.

Mm. We could be in like a virtual environment and then we could have a conversation. You know, we could, you know, uh, I always, always get this, this example, you know, I see myself, I have a dog, and I walk the dog in the morning. I don't know, and then I would see myself inviting one of my friends to walk with.

But he's not actually there, you know, but he's, you know, with me as an avatar and I only see him via my AR classes, so I, it feels like he's with me, but he's not actually there, so, Okay. And then is it, you know, is it real? Is it online? So these things are going to fade.

So where's, where's the barrier between reality and Exactly.

Virtuality. Yeah. And I think, you know, when. When those, um, barriers are less clear mm-hmm. , so when they mix, they really merge. This is where I see, you know, there's a metaphors coming in. Mm-hmm. , this is what I mean about, you know, uh, it's not about the platform, but it's more about, you know, a way of living.

Mm-hmm. . So this is how I see it. And. It, it's a long road towards this, you know, we're not there, but I think we already have a lot of technology that can support this. All this, um, it just needs to evolve, you know? And now with all the, the shortages in chips, you know mm-hmm. everywhere and, you know, things are declining, things are less progressing.

Mm-hmm. It will go at some point, and then in phases we will get there and maybe, I don't know, 30 years from now, you know, it will be like this. Mm-hmm. and you know, we will not talk about online or offline, you know, we will just talk about, you know, our, our life. Mm-hmm. and you know, if I go to Disneyland and.

I'm in the ride, I invite, you know, one of my friends or my son invites one of his friends who is at home and say, Hey, you wanna ride with me? And then , he puts on his glasses And you do the ride. Get together in the same space? Yeah. Yeah. And they have the same experience, but you know, he is online and I'm offline.

You know, there's, so, there's a lot of things that, that can progress in this way. And no, these are really visionary things, I think. Mm-hmm. , but it's not really hard to imagine. But I think there's also, you know, stuff that we, you know, can't even imagine yet.

So then let's talk about. Really what's happening today in the space.

And let's talk about also like some of the technical, um, evolution that also your company's adopting. So you guys started with motion capture. How do you utilize that? So how did you first of all, figure out that this could be, you know, a profitable revenue model for your business or something that you can introduce that can, you know, support, growth, And then how did you introduce it to the company?

What was like the feedback? What, what applications do you guys have for it? Is a positive. Should companies more companies adopt things like that, especially like companies in your space? So tell me more about the, the business applications or the real life applications.

Yeah, so if you think about metaphors at this moment, you think about, um, uh, platforms like sandbox, like Central Land, uh, maybe VR solution like Outspace vr, um, Horizon from, uh, from meta.

but also you hear a lot, you know, like Fortnite or Roblox, you know, those, those kind of things. So it's actually games most of the time. Okay. Um, in these games, there's, there's avatars that are wander, are wandering around and, you know, they, they do actions, they walk, they jump, they mm-hmm. , whatever they do.

Um, and these actions are, Mostly pre-recorded at this moment, so, Okay. Um, these pre-recorded things are also done by motion capture, so this can be done by our technology. So all the avatars that you see running around in games mm-hmm. in films, but also in metaphors, games. Um, they are originally done somewhere at some point by motion capture.

Um, so our company or the mobile company that I work for, so we provide a tool to make this motion or to make these avatars move. Mm-hmm. . And so this is, but this is already happening. So our customers are, you know, eh, sports, you know, uh, Marvel, like I said. Mm-hmm. , So these kinds of companies that, that make games and make films.

Um, but if you think about, you know, really going into metaphors and then probably communicating a lot with people. I dunno if you do it, but, you know, I've, I've meetings in VR and I talk to others and I'm in vr and it always feels. You know, a little bit off, you know? Okay. It's like your eyes don't connect properly, your body movements are not know fully clear.

So yeah, so you have like your headset on, you're looking at the other person, but like things are twitching. Things are not just like moving naturally Essent you like the body moves.

Exactly then. Okay. You know, you are not right on opposite of each other. You know, your hands are floating, uh, some of the time, you know, you only have an upper body, you know,

you just have like your hands

going

up and down.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's, and, and, and some of the times there's not even hands movements and you have just, uh, little buttons and say, Okay, now I wave and now I, I dunno. And now I clap and now I do something. Mm-hmm. . It is really basic and pretty recorded. And, um, so what I'm really envisioning is people, if you want to have a real conversation with somebody mm-hmm.

you have to almost look this person in the eye. Mm-hmm. . And you have to see the body movements that this person has. You have to see the body language. You know, there is this notion that, um, uh, What is it like 55% of your communication is done by your body, you know? Yeah. And the rest, the rest is, is voice and intonation and, and what you're actually saying.

Mm-hmm. . So there's a lot. Uh, body movements that are now not included in this communication, so that can never make it either genuine or really effective. Mm-hmm. . So there's a lot of work of work to gain there, you know, avatars, if they move, uh, with each other, they, if they talk with each other, they need to move naturally.

And your personal. Movements need to be on that avatar. Mm-hmm. , not so prerecorded, you know, uh, movements that, that, that you see happening, but what you're doing,

like what happens, you know, when that generation of the we, where we've got the control and then it's just almost emulates our natural body movement when we're playing sports or, So it's not necessarily prerecorded motion movements, it's more so like actually what you're doing and how you're sitting and where you're looking.

So does that mean that the person has. If they want to be in the metaverse and they want to be immers, does that mean that they have to buy thousands of dollars of gears and like set up their entire body every time they wanna be in the metaverse? Or can it happen with like, you know, simple pieces of technology?

Yes. Um, uh, it's a really good question because I don't wanna wear something when I'm in the metaphors, you know? Uh, I don't see the metaphors as the ready player. Me, you know, kind of style. You know, you have a full gear on, you have a headset on, and you know, you, you are, you bound to some, some little space, and this is where you, where everything happens.

So you don't want that. Now with the, the, the, the upcoming of ai, you know, the, the artificial intelligence, and if you combine that with motion, a lot of things can be done, you know, without wearing a suit. So I could, you know, in the office, I could record a lot of my motions, of my natural motions that I do all the time.

And then you, you put them in some kind of database and then, you know, there's like an ai, uh, engine over it that can you connect it to your avatar? So when I'm entering in a metaverse and it sees me laughing, it sees me communicating, it sees me angry, it sees me excited, you know, then, you know it can be translated.

To, to your avatar. Okay. And then you have a much more personal, uh, communication style with each other instead of now what I said, uh, the, the, the regular emotions that you have. Mm-hmm. . So I think in, in the future, this will will be much more easy to do than it is now. At this moment it's, it's really hard than you have to wear Indeed, like a suit or you have to have like this connect kind of solution or just what you said.

So there, there are solutions out there. , but these are now, these have limitations. Um, so yeah, uh, technology is progressing and I, I don't see this as an issue in, in the future, but, you know, we have some, some, uh, some ground to.

What are some of the coolest, um, motion design projects you've worked on or mu uh, motion capture projects you've worked on?

Well, oh, that's, uh, that's, uh, that's a big, But the, the, the, the, the most famous one is, uh, that we did lately was, uh, the latest fifa. Uh, so FIFA has, uh, uh, FI A 22 came out. And what they did, they actually. 22 players in our suit. Uh, and then they, um, uh, and then they, they, they recorded a full, um, full game, which is normally not done.

Normally. It's like, uh, a confined space. Uh, they take two or three players and they, they record an action. And then, you know, they combine all these things and now they have the full field or the full engagement between the. Which was, you know, really ground. They

were playing a real football game in their series and you were just recording their movements.

Yeah. So that is, that is really groundbreaking because that was not done until like last year. Mm-hmm. . Um, so there's also this company and I think that is really cool what they do. So, I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's sad. But, you know, uh, a couple of years ago there was like a, a big, um, event and somehow the crowd went nuts.

Mm-hmm. and some people died because the crowd crushed each other. And Travis Scott, is that the one? No, not that one. No, it wasn't Germany. Uh, Germany, Okay. Yeah. But it still, um, that they had to go to a confined place. Mm-hmm. and, you know, people were pushing and it went to, and went well, so, Um, so there's also this company in, in Germany actually also, and they, uh, they also bought a bunch of our suits.

And what they do is they, they research how people, how, how crowds, um, uh, react to certain, uh, situations. Okay. Because it's, of course very hard to digitize a crowd. Mm-hmm. , um, and also including the body motions. Mm-hmm. . So they, they try to, to. To make science out of crowd, you know, to make science out of chaos, actually.

Mm-hmm. . So if something would happen again, they would, uh, they would know how, you know, to, to predict or react or Yeah. Exactly. How to steer something and what to do. So I think that's pretty cool indeed. Yeah. You know, it's, um, um, you know, it's something that has never been done before and it's also, No, I've never heard of that before.

Yeah. I, I didn't, Well, , so, but this is, this is typically that some, yeah. Some of these things that you come across like mm-hmm. , you never thought of this. And then, you know, they, they, they come up with, with something like, there's also a research done about how, um, How saddles, um, uh, react to horses when they're on the horse.

And then it's of course not a motion capture shoe. Like then it's the technology that's in the motion capture shoe is used by, uh, by the saddles or in the saddles. You know, how, how, Yeah. I have never thought about how a saddle is, you know, how it reacts to a, to a horse. But, you know, stuff like this, uh, is, is being researched, uh, on a daily basis.

Sometimes you come across really crazy things.

That's pretty cool. That's, that's actually, I, I love the, the chaos one, creating, you know, science side of chaos. I think that's, that's, that's a really cool concept and it can be applied in so many different ways. Yeah. Um, you write a lot about NFTs, You're very involved in the NFT space.

You're in what, like some 26 projects right now? Um, how, well first of all, how did the NFD world change from you? Like during pandemic times when it was at its like highest peak to post pandemic when we went into that, like whole crypto recession or downturn. So how, how did the NFD world change, um, where like the scams essentially like fitted at that time or were they able to, like is it, are there real projects, the ones that are surviving right now?

What are some really cool projects? How can someone identify? You know, the cool projects that someone should invest in versus, you know, the scams or the, you know, the, just nothing projects or the ones that don't have a.

Yeah, well further, I'm, I'm not a, I'm not an investor, so I, I cannot really talk about, you know, which one is, is good to invest.

Um, so the ones that I, I got into are really the ones that I either, I love them, you know, because of the project or the story that was behind them. Um, or there was, uh, a technology being used. So our technology is also used to make and create, uh, NFT projects. So I was also involved in those kind of, You guys

used motion designs to, or like motion capture to create NFTs, like movement actions.

Yeah. What,

what, You see what there was a, a period and, and you see in it now. So the, the, the, the NFTs that were created, they are 2D flat, you know, images. and, um, they want to bring them to life. So there's like a next stage. So what happened is a lot of these NFT projects have in the roadmap mm-hmm. , that you get a 3D model from your, uh, NFTs.

And with those 3D models, you can build, I don't know, little animations or you can well make a TV series out of it. Um, Okay. You know, there's all kinds of things you can do with it. Um, and this is then done again with motion capture. Mm-hmm. , so. A few of these projects, you know, I came across and, uh, you know, I invested in it as well, and I bought these, these, uh, these NFC to see, you know, how this would go.

And, you know, what people would do because, well, you, you have to be kind of technical to make it work. You know, it's not that easy. You have to work with in Real Engine or Unity or mm-hmm. , you know, other, uh, uh, software to make it come to life. So, And, you know, of course I work at a company that, you know, we, we know how to work with this stuff, but mm-hmm.

my, there's none of my friends that can mm-hmm. . So also none of my friends invest in nft. So it does matter, but, um, So this is, this is how I came across these, these projects. Um, and um, yeah, and that's, that's also what, what I say to others, if you, if you like a project, you know, if you like the story or if you like, you know, the background of it mm-hmm.

then go in it. I actually don't like people go, I don't like, it's, I don't like the, the whole investment flipping, you know, going in, getting out. I, I don't see the point of it. It's also not sustainable, in my opinion.

Yeah. It destroyed the NFD world very quickly.

Exactly. It's mm-hmm. , It's, Yeah, it's a shame because I think, you know, in essence it's a really cool, um, uh, technology and it can be used to, to so many cool, um, applications.

But what it is known now for is for being scammed. I was scammed as well. What,

uh, what was the

scam? It was stupid. You know? I was, I was, and it's, it's so stupid. It's like, you know, you're not clicking on a link in an email or an attachment in an email that you don't trust. You just don't do it anymore.

Yeah. . And in Twitter it's the same, you know, I get, uh, I get, uh, you know, hundred of messages a day. Yeah. Saying, Oh, you know, whitelist is whitelist dead and we drop here re I dunno. And somehow there was, so there was this project, maybe the Golin co project, maybe. Okay. You remember it. But it went from zero to, to a hero in, in no time.

Mm-hmm. . And they had like, um, uh, a webpage, but there was really particular, it was really. Well, really cool actually. It, it looked really different than all the other projects. Um, and it didn't look like, like any other, So I got a message and it says, Well, you know, the, it's our free weekly, free whatever.

And, uh, so I clicked on it. I don't know why, but I clicked on it and I saw this, this website, I've thought. This is actually their website. Mm-hmm. . Um, but they made it, they remade it of, I didn't know at the time, so I thought, Oh, well this is actually this website. And I was like, minted and so stupid me. I, I, I minted and um, but nothing happened.

So I thought, okay, well, Uh, and it was at night. It was late at night and I don't know, maybe I had a few weeks. I don't know what happened. But you

were just excited. You were just excited. Yeah. I this with a big project that is sold out. Yeah, yeah. Like the big project that is sold out. It happened to be so many times where, um, I think it was, God, I forgot what it was called, but there was this really cool project that was coming out.

It was like, you know, the fashion board APE ones, I forgot what they're called. But anyways, they got like sold out in seconds. Like not even, even in seconds it was sold out. And then I get a link and they're like, Hey, we added a few more for like, Yeah, yeah. You know, cause it's sold out. And they clicked on the link and then I just like noticed something in the URL was just like small but different.

And that was like my hint that it's this scam. But I was so excited. That was like, Oh my God, let's go. We're gonna buy it

. And that happened to me and yeah, it was stupid. Yeah. But nothing happened. And then a week after, I dunno. In the meantime, they, they, they, they emptied my wallet. Sure. Everything was gone.

Yeah. It was, it was how much? It wasn't that much. It wasn't that much. It was like, I think it wasn't total like a 500 euro or something. So it was, but it's still money, you know? Yeah. Um,

Did they, at least they didn't touch your assets?

Like, Yeah. Yeah. They stole the NFTs. I dunno what you mean by acid. Like the NFTs.

Yeah. They were gone. No, no, no, they were gone. But it, these acid, the, these, they were worth like 500 euro or something. Gotcha. It was, uh, it was not, uh, the, the biggest wallet that I had mm-hmm. , but, Um, so they were, they were gone. And, um, and it were projects that I actually liked, you know? Mm-hmm. , they, they were, uh, connected to mobile or, you know, I dunno exactly what they were, but, so that was, it was a shame and it was stupid.

Uh, and I, I actually wrote about it and I got a lot of. Tips and you know, what I needed to do. Um, and if I knew about this, probably I, it would never have happened. Yeah. Um, but I also, I think I, I educated a lot of people on it or how to do and what to not to do and what to do at, uh, at some point. But yeah, I think it's, you know, and, and one of the things there was everybody said is okay, you know, it happens to everybody.

Uh, it does at some point. Does, it does. And then everybody, but I was thinking. And I was think, Yeah, but the, the notion, the fact that that happens is, is so weird. Like, you know, Yeah. If you are in this space, you get spammed or you get scammed, you know, there's like, Why

yo, everybody I, and like, they're, they're getting so creative with their scams as well.

Yeah. I think the, the biggest, or like the one that really got me, um, it was when Twitter released the NFT picture or the NFT profile picture. Oh yeah. I'm not sure if you're on Twitter, but, uh, it was, I think last summer, uh, Twitter was like, Okay, now you, your profile picture can be an nft. Um, if you have mentioned it.

And then it has like a hexagon shape. Yeah. I was so excited cause I wanted to show my NFTs and I was like, okay, I can finally like, you know, show off my NFTs in different cool ways. And then it was not working, like the hexagon thing was not working. So I sent Twitter a support message saying, Hey, the hexagon is not working.

Can you help me out? And then in my messages, I see this like Twitter account, just like, Hey, we got your support ticket. Um, we can help you out. Follow this link and follow these instructions. I go to the link. It was a Twitter website. It was like, step 1, 2, 3, 4, do this to your wallet. I was like, Cool.

Like how? Who else would know that? I put in the support ticket to Twitter. I followed the steps, and then I connect my wallet, and then as soon as I connect my wallet, something just felt wrong. I went to that Twitter account and it had like zero followers and zero followings, and that was like, yeah, that was like, I was like, shit.

Did I just give them my wallet and in within seconds I just transferred everything to a different wallet. So I like good thing, knowing they didn't steal my NFTs, but like the, how it was so good. I the was so good.

Yeah, they, they, yeah they are. So, um, They go to too much of length to, to do so. Yes. Yes. But, and that's, but it's, it's similar to, you know, they, they tried fishing, you know, on your own, but, you know, they, they get creative there as well.

But it's, it's, it's a thing and it, and it connects to, to NFT unfortunately. Mm-hmm. . Um, and that is, that is, I think, a shame. Um, and it's, and it distracts a lot from, you know, where it could really go. Absolutely. Um, and, uh, and it also distracts or it actually keeps. The actual NFT projects that are interesting, they, it keeps it down because nobody, you know, either they say, Well, it's a scam anyway.

Mm-hmm. , or they, you know, they don't see it because it will never go, you know, it will not surface at this point. And I hope

that change centralization, pendulum, right? We go. From centralization to decentralization, then like that creates chaos. And then we're like, we want rules back. Exactly. And then we get rules and we're like, Too much rules.

Let's go back to like decentralization. It just keeps going. It's

to circle. Yeah. Yeah. And that is, And it, it is a real, you know, difficult question. You know, how far do you go and you. Knowing who's on the other side. Yeah. Um, because also, yeah, my NFD was stolen and I can see in open sea who it was. I can see, I can see the address of who it was.

Yeah. . But I cannot, you know, I don't know who is that I can, Yeah. And I can't even contact this person like, hey, Q asshole.

What? Like, I know you, but there's nothing I can, I don't go to get you

, but you cannot, you know, it's like, Yeah. It's so weird. And, um, and I also stole my, um, I had like an Ether account or like an E domain.

They also stole that one. Ah, they sold Thes too. Yeah. So, uh, so that's also out there, but no. Yeah. But I talked to EN to, to E in or the ENS, and they said, Well, we can at least cancel, um, that they cannot resell it. Mm-hmm. . So that's that what they did. But that sounds, that's good. And now, now I have to wait like two years and then expire, and then I can redo it again, but Yeah.

Yeah, because, and also I said, and that's also a strange thing with, with nft. You cannot return it. You cannot redo it. If you pay somebody, if I pay you and I think, Oh shit, you know, wrong person, and I, I can get it back. That's it, you know, by my back. And it, that's

what happened with the board API club and like the, a bunch of, a bunch of these cases happened where they either like set the price 3000 instead of like 300,000 or like thinking or the wrong address.

Yeah, you just. Can undo it.

And that's, that's, yeah. I would love to have, you know, that that should be such an easy fix. Like undo some something, but it's not possible but

isn't for blockchain. That's the Yeah, that's the point. That's why it was created.

Exactly. And, uh, but still, You know, this is something that, that could be of interest, but I also think, you know, um, like you said, you feel things are off, like, you know, there's something off.

Mm-hmm. . Um, I also notice it when I clicked on this link, um, you know, my wallet, it's said something, but it's developers language that's in this wallet. You still see that it's in that level or that, that, that face, you know, it's not clear, you know, the UX of these things are not always that clear. I had no idea what, what I approved.

There's a gut feeling with scams and then you always know when you're getting scammed. You just, like, sometimes you always feel that, you always feel something is wrong when you're getting scammed.

Yeah, exactly. And when, when this, this, So I actually, so apparently I opened up my wallet, I dunno what the notification was, but you know, it didn't occur to me that this was actually the case.

So that could be much clearer. And then actually they take stuff from the wallet, which. Should flag something as well. Mm-hmm. and then I should, you know, approve that again. Like, Hey, these guys are taking 10, I dunno, NFTs from, are you sure know whenever I have a, when I ever do something on my computer, I get like 10 notifications.

Are you sure? Are you really Sure, Sure, sure. Okay, well then, okay. And now it's like one click and gone. Yeah, that,

that's, yeah, that, that's also, It's because these, a lot of these wallets also don't have, I mean, Madam Ask is an established company, but a lot of these wallets also don't have, you know, established ecosystems yet and established foundations.

Like realistically, yes, they're five years old, but realistically they have not seen scalability yet. Right? Like that was the first use case in history of scalable. Wallets for scalable investments in the nft, in the crypto space. And so all these use cases, like I'm just imagining literally millions of people all at once using it, Hundreds of thousands of people getting scammed.

And they're like, We have no foundation set up to do anything about it, right? It's just, unless you have hundreds of millions of dollars in investment, it is very difficult to offset that and create that. And so I think the downturn is a little bit also helpful for these companies cuz now they've seen what happens at scale.

And now they're able to build foundations to get ready for the next wave of adoption. Hopefully that maybe will happen in the next year or so.

Yeah, exactly. And you know, it, it's also, it's growing pains and it's, um, you know, it's, it's, it needs to develop. And like you said, I heard, I know it was like, uh, what was this, this, this NFT project with the astronaut, Uh, what was the, what's the name that was about, Yeah, and they, they min it, and then something was wrong in the contract, and like 30 million worth of ease is just stuck somewhere.

It can never be retrieved. It's just gone. My God. It's like, okay.

This is, this is the biggest fuck you in the world, . Yeah, I have, Yeah. I think there was also another case where this old grandpa invested in Bitcoin like a long time ago. It was like, when it was incense, he, he was like, Okay, I'll put in like a hundred dollars.

I'll buy like some 500 Bitcoins, da da da. Leave them. Mm-hmm. . He created a password for his wallet, completely forgot it. In 2017 I speak, it was worth like almost 250 million. Yeah. He has 10 tries before his account completely closes. He's used nine out of the 10, 10 tries for those words. Yeah. He has one more try or that money is lost forever.

Yeah. You don't wanna know. You don't wanna be there. No. Like that's, but there's, there's also this guy, right? That, that is, that invested. I don't know, like 5 million so he can, um, uh, it's like a trash terrain and mm-hmm. , apparently his computer is there somewhere and he's gonna look in this trash, terrain.

Terrain, and he blocked it for, or he bought it or something just to look for his computer because, because his ledger is on there. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's interest and it's, it's an interesting space and. I hope just this, this, you know, these, this, these, this bad vibe that it has mm-hmm. that it will eventually go, um, and that we will, you know, focus on better applications because there's, there's so many opportunities out there that, uh, that, that NFT can, can.

A hundred percent profitable for and you

know, can work beyond build assets. I think a lot of people exist with assets, but NFTs, like in itself, the technology has nothing to do with assets. We just associated it with like digital assets for some reason. But for music, for like real art, for, for a lot of things.

It can be for fundraising. Oh my god. It can be amazing for crowdfund fundraising. Yeah. Yeah. There's totally amazing applications for it. If we just. Remove those or like try to mitigate the risks. I, I'm hoping this is what the new version of the web is going to look like. A lot of people are talking about web for, um, but

hopefully Yeah, I, I, I was imagining, and the, and this is something that, that I think could, the, the, the, the blockchain and, and wallets could be really beneficial for mm-hmm.

is privacy, uh, private. Yeah. Because now privacy is actually. You know, in the hands of corporations now mm-hmm. and, um, a wallet could mean that you own your, their own privacy. Your own privacy, and you are in full control of your privacy because everything is your wallet. And instead of you begging corporations to either use or not use your information, they have to come to you mm-hmm.

and say, Hey, can I use this part of your. You know, wallet information to give you something valuable. So they actually have to earn, you know, my, my data. And then I'm finding, giving it, you know, I could even imagine, I could even imagine that they get like a trial period. You know, like

imagine you get a shot, show me what you can do.

Yeah, imagine you get stocks like on, let's say if Meta or Google uses your data for advertisements. Imagine you get stocks for like, you know, every ad campaign you agree to every, every year you agree to use. It's like almost like a vesting period where you get like four year vesting, you know, shares. If you let them use your data for four years, I think that would be pretty sick.

Like a lot of people would be down for it because now it becomes less of I'm violating you to where we're collective working together to do something. And I think even more people would be willing to listen to the ads. I'm like, if I'm personally. And the ads. Yeah. And I'm making money just by looking at your ads and clicking on your website.

Let's do it. So what? You know? Yeah.

Yeah. And not only by Ling, but also that they actually provide you something valuable. Mm-hmm. like, Okay, I'm, I'm I, So it doesn't feel like, you know, advertising anymore. You know? I can imagine. I don't know. I'm, I'm walking in some street and, you know, I'm a comic fan and I walk, you know, there's like a comic store right on the corner, but I, you know, I go the other way that somebody notifies me, Hey, you know, there, there is a comic store there, right?

You know, maybe you can, you wanna visit it? And they're like, Okay. Okay. You know how this is

so good, TikTok? Yeah. TikTok does it so well, I think better than everyone else in the game because the way TikTok does it is not through ads, it is just through promoting videos like the other day. Um, I'm planning a trip to Portugal for the web summit.

I'm not sure if you you're familiar with it, but it's a very big tech conference and I wanna stay there for a couple of weeks. And so I'm just thinking, Oh, what, what are the things that I can do in Portugal? And then suddenly on my four year page, I got a couple of videos of, Here are the best things to do in Lisbon.

You know, like it's just, it's creator videos, it's not advertisements. But it was very helpful to me and I was very happy cause I'm like, I don't wanna goal looking for things to do. The fact that it came to me at the right moment, at the right place, it is very valuable. But it's not an advertisement that is being shoved down my throat.

So I think TikTok does it so well where the user experience is not disruptive to a point where like, I'm annoyed, or I don't want to see this, like YouTube, you know, or meta or these companies.

Yeah. And that I think in, and that is in the way, you know, it's, it's, it's valuable to you and you actually want to consume it.

Exactly. Um, I think TikTok is also, you know, now they are, they are, they have your data, you know, you, you approved it and you said, you know, you can use anything and, uh, you cannot use them if you don't share it. Mm-hmm. . But somehow, Yeah. Yeah. You're okay with this. Um, but it is weird that they have all your data and you are not in control of it.

You know, They can do the same if, if it's yours, but they, you know, they, they reverse, you know, the, the, the questionnaire in this mm-hmm. , and I think this is where, you know, wallets blockchain can really help, um, and, uh, and make people feel, people feel comfortable. Mm-hmm. . And also, like I said, you know, uh, Force, force people or force company to actually, you know, contribute to you like, like TikTok, you know, and not like Meta or whoever is the bad guy.

Mm-hmm. . Um, so yeah, it's, it's really interesting and this is where it needs to go. Um, and this is also this, this, you know, the, the, the web three generation, this is also. You know, where I envision, you know, this, this Web three movement is about mm-hmm. , you know, it's about taking back control, um, being in control of your own privacy, utilizing technology, and not only blockchain, but.

Any kind of new technology mm-hmm. to be valuable, you know, instead of, you know, making something because you can monetize it in. Yeah. Uh, all

about value exchange. I think that's the power of web three is it's literally embedded in value exchange is nothing, is, you can see it in the blocks itself. What is the value exchange here?

And that I think that's, that's. That's gonna help consumers worldwide.

Hope so. Yeah. Hope so.

Awesome. Ruco, any last words about, you know, all of this that we talked about? Any last, you know, notes for the audience?

? Um, oh, dude, that's always a hard question, , but I, I think, um, um, You know, what we talked about is, you know, we have, we had some bad sides of the meta version on the NFTs and on privacy.

but like you started also, so much is being built at this moment and there's, there's so many people investing money and time and education in this mm-hmm. . Um, we should also see, see the value and the positivity in this. Mm-hmm. , um, because I'm, I'm confident, you know, there, there will be applications that, that, that will really, you know, enlighten our lives mm-hmm.

you know, and make our lives easier, better, and more fun. Mm-hmm. . and being, you know, in this universe is not a bad thing. You know, it's not about, uh, Wally, you know where this fat person

. I was gonna quote Wally today. I was gonna say this, this reminds me of Wally.

Exactly. And um, That is, it's not like that.

Mm-hmm. , you know, it's, it's, it's, we will just live our lives. Mm-hmm. . Um, but, you know, our lives will have an extra layer. Mm-hmm. this metaphors layer. Yeah. Um, and I think that is, that is how I want to close off. You know, it's not a bad, a negative thing, it's a positive thing. That's not Wally

. No . Awesome.

Well, Reka, thank you so much for joining us today. Really was great chatting with you. And we'll have you on the podcast again and see where things are going in the next two or three years. We'll do a comparison video in a couple of years. Fun . Okay. Have a good one.