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The iGaming Leader Podcast with Leo Judkins uncovers the human side of the iGaming industry's most successful leaders. Join us as we explore the untold stories, challenges, and triumphs of the executives shaping one of the world's most dynamic sectors.
Each week, we dive deep into conversations with C-suite leaders, founders, and directors from global betting firms and innovative startups. Our guests share their authentic journey to the top, revealing pivotal career moments, leadership philosophies, and personal strategies for sustainable success in this high-pressure industry.
More than just another business podcast, we focus on the crucial intersection of wellbeing and high performance. Discover how industry leaders maintain peak performance while managing stress, work-life integration, and team dynamics in an industry that never sleeps.
Whether you're an aspiring leader, current executive, or passionate about the iGaming sector, each 30-minute episode delivers actionable insights to help you thrive in this fast-paced environment.
Subscribe now to join a community of high-achieving iGaming professionals committed to making this industry not just successful, but sustainable for its leaders.
Grainne: [00:00:00] I absolutely love politics, but I despise internal politics, So I try to minimize that at all costs personally, but also within my team
Grainne: I suddenly realized with a massive crash that some journeys aren't actually linear. And you know, sometimes you go up and. Have to come down to kind of rebuild and then go up again.
Grainne: work to live or live to work? And there was a realization for me that I actually lived to work and actually I should be working to live.
Leo: Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast, where we uncover the human side of some of the most inspirational leaders in our industry. I'm your host, Leo Judkins, and as an ex iGaming director term performance coach, I've worked with over 200 leaders from companies like Entain 3, 6, 5, flutter, and many more to help them.
Build the habits to achieve sustainable high performance. In these episodes, we share exactly what it takes for you to achieve the same. So with that being said, let's dive in.
Leo: [00:01:00]Hey everybody. Welcome to the iGaming Leader Podcast. I am here today with Grainne Hurst, somebody that I've been looking forward to for. So long to interview because, growing, we were talking about it before, I think you've got such a challenging job to manage. You've got such a brilliant and interesting career that you've gone through.
I think you are the example of resilience and, I'd love to, just setting the bar. so I, I, I'm really looking forward to, to talking to you today. Thank you for, for joining on the podcast.
I wanna start big straight away, if that's all right. Grainne, you've, you've mentioned, that you had this really particular, you know, difficult period at, when you were at Entain. When you've returned from, from maternity leave. you've come back, you've [00:02:00]come back early from maternity leave, and suddenly you have this big.
Upheaval and you know, you actually got a promotion. Can you tell us a little bit more about that specific situation, how you got back and what happened afterwards? Instead of me actually explaining all of it.
Grainne: Yeah, sure. So I my second maternity leave into a promotive role at I think it was GVC at the time,
Grainne: And absolutely loved the role was doing it for probably six to nine months, and then there was a change of CEO and restructure, and there were a couple of us that were restructured off of the executive committee. It obviously wasn't positioned at the time as a demotion, but for me it felt like a very personal demotion. I was
Grainne: Responsibility in another area of the business. but it was a very [00:03:00] difficult challenge for me to manage because that was probably the first time in my career where things hadn't necessarily gone to plan. that I had a plan, but I was moving along a kind of linear journey. and then I suddenly realized with a massive crash that some journeys aren't actually linear. And you know, sometimes you go up and Have to come down to kind of rebuild and then go up again.
which is fine now with the benefit of hindsight, but at the time it was pretty painful and pretty personal. and I think
Grainne: Humans we just generally think the worst. You know, when something happens, you don't think, oh, well, you know, it's not me. It's just a restructure. You think, oh God, what have I done wrong? I then started to wonder if I'd made the right decision to come back early. Um. Looking back, I definitely did make the right decision and it probably was actually the right decision that my role was changed [00:04:00] because I managed to expand my remit in other ways, which I've actually enjoyed more.
I. But yeah, it taught me to be resilient. It doesn't happen overnight, but you obviously have to pick yourself back up, put on a brave face, move onwards and upwards, which I think is pretty good standing for any kind of corporate professional life. Just I wasn't
Grainne: a bit of a shock when it came.
Leo: yeah, I can totally, I can, I can solely relate to that and I can. I can imagine how when, when I was reading it and when I was, when I first heard about the story, I thought, oh my God, that must have been so difficult because you already come back right from, I think you described it as you felt some mum guilt already as well.
You're coming back, right? And, um. You step into this role, there's obviously you feel anxiety, right? You're going, oh, you're going back into work. like what, what was that like, what was that moment like when you actually found out? How did that, how did [00:05:00] that happen? Was it, did that happen slowly over one period?
Did you find out on a specific, at a specific, on a specific day, at a specific time? What did, what did the moment look like?
Grainne: so it was still in the period of COVID, not
Grainne: Full lockdown COVID, but it was when most people were working from home. so I got a phone call the night before to say that this was going to be announced in the next 24 48 hours. so courtesy called to let me know. Obviously you have time to process it, ask any questions. so it was all done very amicably and sensibly and thoughtfully. I. But still, when you have that conversation, I'm sure everybody who has had similar conversations, it hits you like a bus and I wasn't
Grainne: It and I wasn't quite sure what to say. so thankfully I kind of took some time, you know, it didn't kind of respond automatically there and then just said, thanks for letting me know.
Let me just kind of process it overnight, give you a call back in the morning, then obviously [00:06:00] spent some time mulling it over talking to my husband about it. and then went back the next day and had a bit more of a fuller conversation about what the ramifications of that looked like and the rationale behind the decision. but I would say characterized by total shock at the time.
Grainne: Of kind of questioning why it's happened, questioning what you do, how you handle it. so yeah, it was tough, but a good learning curve.
Leo: Yeah. Yeah, I can, I can. So I can imagine how it must have been so hard because it's just, it's the public view, right? It's the visibility of it. It's your own, it's your self worth, right? It's all of that. It's, that's such a, it's such a recipe of emo, like it's this mix of emotions that all happens at the same time.
So. Yeah, I can't even, yeah, can't even imagine how, how, so, so when you look back at it now, then growing you, what's like, I often say that our biggest challenges [00:07:00] actually are our biggest lessons. They often become our drivers for the things that we learn and provide the fuel for, you know, maybe making the changes that we want in our, in our careers or in our personal lives.
So, so how has that specific challenge helped you, afterwards and in your future career?
Grainne: Yeah, I think so. I think what it taught me is that these decisions aren't personal. You know,
Grainne: Like I had done something wrong, it was a restructure and particular roles didn't necessarily have the same weight on the executive committee that they might have done previously. Because of the constant things in our industry, Leo, as you know, is change. So whilst you
Grainne: Have been integral to a part of the business for a particular period of time or a particular project, things move on and people move on and priorities change. So what I've learned is that change that comes in the [00:08:00]industry is never normally personal. its normally in the best interest of the business.
It just sometimes can feel quite personal. But
Grainne: Need to subtract that element from it and think, yes, that's not great for me personally, but actually let's look at the positives. And actually it helps you to build resilience and also it helps you to plan for if that were to happen to you again or know how you might react if that happens to you again. And also. I think it makes you a better leader because I now understand how that felt. If I then have to deliver that similar message to somebody else. I've been on the
Grainne: The receiving end of it, so I'd like to think that I know how to manage those kind of difficult conversations better having been through it you know, witnessed it, experienced it, all of those rollercoaster of emotions. So I
Grainne: It was worth while and it was the right thing to do, in a weird way, it's made me [00:09:00] a better leader. And probably put me on a better path than I might have been on, you know, coasting along merrily with nothing ever really going wrong. So, yeah. It, it builds you as a person.
Leo: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's so true. And I, it's just impossible to see when you're right in the middle of it. Right. It's like you are
Leo: because Yes, it's, it, it takes a lot of time and, I. I also think, yeah, it, it definitely isn't personal, but like you said, it feels personal and then it's, it's very difficult to let the, I think it's actually impossible to let that go in the, in the moment.
But yeah, taking the lessons from it is, is, is really powerful. I wanna go back to the, if you, yeah. Could you go back to all the way to the start of your career and kind of how you started out and how you then moved into gaming. I'd love to kind of go back to. Maybe your research days even. and, talk a little bit about kind of how you progressed through your career and how [00:10:00] you ended up where you are today.
Grainne: Yeah, sure. so I had absolutely no plan. would probably be the first thing to say. I went to university, studied a course that I really enjoyed, had no idea what I wanted to do. didn't, genuinely didn't actually know what a lobbyist was until I actually started working in Parliament. So I didn't know that my role now existed I was at university looking for my first job. but on my university course, quite a few of the people on it were interning in Parliament I thought, oh, that sounds quite
Grainne: Maybe I'll give that a go. sent off a few application forms. obviously had quite a few rejections as everybody does starting out in their career. And then finally landed a job with Sir Philip Davis, who was the MP for Shipley in West Yorkshire. and I vividly remember my interview because, I'd obviously been to uni and I put all this stuff about, you know, my academic [00:11:00] rigor and my researching abilities, and I sat down in the interview and Philip said, tell me about your time working at Mark Spencer on a Saturday. And I thought, what? Why? his background had been in customer service and he made a really good point that obviously to be a good MP you have to provide a really good service to his constituents.
So he looks for that quality and people that he employs even on his research side of the house. So got the job thanks to my Saturday job at Marks and Spencer's. spent a wonderful couple of years there learning the ropes about life in politics and the parliamentary process, that's actually where I was introduced professionally to the gambling industry. previously had been using the products myself, you know, recreationally as we call it. Um.
Grainne: But was introduced to the kind of legal side, the regulatory side, working in Parliament really [00:12:00] loved the kind of broad range of issues that be and gaming span the pace of constant change within the industry. that I engaged with seemed really intelligent and strategic, but also quite down to earth and really good fun didn't necessarily think at that moment in time. This is an industry that I'm gonna work in for definite, but really enjoyed learning about it and then kind of left Parliament, joined an agency.
Didn't really think anymore about it. Until I'd done a few more jobs and I was a special advisor for Esther McVey when she was in the Department for Work and pensions. sadly lost her seat in the 2015 general election. And then I was looking for work and I saw the Labworks job was being advertised and I thought, oh, I've got some gaming knowledge from working in Parliament way back when I like using the product.
Maybe I could combine the two. [00:13:00] and then I have been in and around the industry for the best part of 10 years, ever since, mainly at Labworks Coral, GBC, and in their various mergers and acquisitions. And then joined the BET and Gaming Council about nine months ago.
Leo: such a turbulent time, right? You've been through so much turbulence, especially at at Antenna or GVC And like amount of CEOs you must have gone through and, and, the, the changes, um. What, like, maybe let's go back to, to that time, if that's okay.
Goya, what were, yeah, what were some of the biggest challenges you've, you've experienced there during your time, through all those mergers and acquisitions and all those changes that have happened in that business, during your time there.
Grainne: So probably surviving. this one of the biggest changes because obviously when there is a change at the top, either in [00:14:00] CEO or merger and acquisitions, there is a question mark effectively over everybody's head. You know, if you have a counterpart in the other business which you've merged with who does the same job, you obviously have to go head to head you know, may the best person win.
so there's a lot of kind of just surviving and continuing in your current role if you're enjoying it, obviously, which I was. so lots of change. then I guess the big challenge is obviously kind of tweaking and resetting goals, your priorities, your strategies, your vision for the incoming new leadership. And with every
Grainne: There's not necessarily a revolution, but there's a kind of repositioning of certain priorities that come kind of further up or down the agenda. So one thing I learned quite quickly was to try and position myself as a kind of niche expert [00:15:00] in my particular area. And there are lots of people that did what I did and do what I do. but one of my benefits when GVC acquired Lab Brooks and Coral was that had very little exposure to the UK market prior to acquiring Lab Brooks and Coral. So there was nobody doing my sort of role they didn't need it. then GVC acquired Lab Brooks and Coral and thought, holy days, what do I do with this UK regulatory world that I've, you know, walked into? And it was right at the heart of the fixed, odd betting terminals debate at the time. So huge UK exposure, huge regulatory issues, which for me, helpfully kind of propelled my role and remit and what I do, higher up the agenda internally because they needed somebody to educate them on what they do and how they should do it.
And what were the opportunities and what were the challenges. So. For [00:16:00] me, being in the right place at the right time, being the expert on particular issues, I think set me up for success internally Because once you're a trusted colleague and have shown that you are able to, you know, navigate difficult issues, they're then more willing to kind of trust you with other issues and broaden your remit so. I think to go back to your question, the biggest issue and challenges for me were actually surviving and then repositioning myself each time be, you know, important in the role I was in for the business.
Leo: yeah, yeah. Makes a lot of sense. I think. that's one of the things, isn't it growing when you have such different cultures as well. and there's a merger or there's an acquisition. A a lot of, like, one of the big things that happens in most places is that there's a lot of, there's a lot of survival happening as well, right?
There's people that are tr lashing out and playing crazy games [00:17:00] and trying to make sure that they, they keep their position. how did you, how did you navigate that? Did you struggle with those kind of things? I know lots of people find it really difficult to then stay authentic, stay themselves. How, how did that go for you?
Grainne: Didn't find it that I didn't cut. Personally find it difficult? I've always been quite a straight player, so,
Grainne: I mean, you probably need to ask people who've worked with me rather than me. 'cause everybody likes to write their own reviews. but I've always liked to just be authentic and so I've
Grainne: I don't think I've ever pretended to be something that I'm not or someone I'm not, then later down the line, people get disappointed about. It is almost the opposite in that I can sometimes be maybe a bit too direct and you know, telling people what I think or how I see it or how I feel, which sometimes [00:18:00] might get me in trouble rather than playing political games. So I absolutely love politics, but I despise internal politics, So I try to minimize that at all costs personally, but also within my team you're right, it gets toxic. people try to, know, just for position it's just not good.
Leo: I also wanna talk a little bit about the, the mom guilt we were talking about earlier.
And before, actually, before, we started re talking, we, we talked about work life balance and, how that's just impossible and, and as unattainable for most is not a thing. Um. So I'd love to hear your experience with that growing, how you, how that's perhaps has formed over time.
Because like, I've got two kids just like you, and I know in the beginning I had this certain image in my head of what that should look like, right. As a, as a good parent, but also somebody that's focused on their career and then that clashed and [00:19:00] didn't work out. So, and then it, you know, I kind of redefined it.
How did that go for you?
Grainne: Yeah, so it's constant. I think is what I would say.
Grainne: Actually maybe it's not constant. Maybe it comes in waves. but what I've learned what I think is that there's no such thing as a work-life balance. As we were saying earlier, Leo, I think that that concept is actually quite problematic because it makes people think that there is this great panacea and you can have it all and everything's equal. And you can do your work. And then in your free time you can be a mom But actually the two worlds constantly collide. And I'm fine with that. You know, my kids are my priority, but sometimes my work has to be my priority. But I accept that I'm proud of it. You know, I want my kids to be proud of me. but equally, it's not for everybody.
[00:20:00] So one of my big things is not judging one another. You know, we shouldn't. We shouldn't look at somebody who works full-time and has kids and think, they're doing a great job. And equally, we should look at, stay at home parents and think they're doing a good job. here's whatever works for you.
Leo: and that's so true, right? It's not, it's, it's, it's unattainable and, and also it's okay, right? If, if that's what you wanna do, if you wanna work fewer hours, that's great.
If you wanna be a careerist, that's also great. It's not, there's not, um. I think that's probably one of the big problems that we have where we think everything needs to be done in a certain way and we almost, we almost box ourselves in and yeah, it's about figuring that out. how, how's that for you now?
What's, what does that look like for you now? It's, is it up and down depending on kind of what works, looks like for the week, for the month, what seasons you go through? What, what does that look like now?
Grainne: on a Sunday night, my husband and [00:21:00] I will sit down and basically plan a week, which is, you know, where am I on a Monday? Where is he on a Monday? am I? On a Tuesday? Where is he on a Tuesday? every week is different, but we're really lucky. we have grandparents who help, you know, our kids' school are really good with afterschool clubs and morning clubs. so I'm not quite sure how we make it work. It's my honest answer. But we make it work from week to week, day to day. and yeah, I hope my kids have a happy life. just a bit hectic sometimes.
Leo: Yeah. that's just the way it is. Right. And that's totally okay. I also wanted to talk a little bit about, before we dive into your, your current role. I wanted to talk a little bit about, global gaming women, if that's okay. You, you mentioned, so, so Julia, actually suggested you for the, for the podcast.
She's one of. One of the members on our, on our mastermind, yeah. Amazing. [00:22:00] she's on a mastermind and she, like I know how much great work you, you do. one of the things that I saw you saying is that you called it almost like your personal board of directors at your personal advisory board. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, because I'd imagine in your position.
The, like, the higher you get, the thinner the air gets, right? There's very few people to talk to and just having people to talk to that understand the challenges that you are in, I think is really crucial. So can you share a little bit more about what you mean with that personal advisory board and how important, that environment is for you?
Grainne: Yeah, so it's hugely important. I. Sometimes it's professional and they can give you advice, sometimes it's just a chat. You know, if you've had a good day and you wanna share it, or you've had a bad day and you wanna moan about it, yes, you can do that with your family [00:23:00] or your friends outside of work. But having people that have a, some knowledge of the industry is really important. find anyway, because you don't have to necessarily explain the issues to get them up to speed to understand what it is your gripe is or your,
Leo: You know Success is, you can kind of just cut straight to it. So, really proud of the work that we're doing with Global Game Women. I would encourage everybody. Two, if they haven't already to sign up. It's free of charge to join. And we run amazing networks of women from all levels within the industry and now across the globe who can share their experiences, both, personally and professionally. and it's just a really great sounding board of people to go to for advice or for solace. and also friendship. You know, I have loads of friends outside of work. but I've also made some of the best friends [00:24:00] through my global gaming women network. know, we, we volunteer together outside of hours. You know, we meet up in the holidays, we meet up for drinks, for dinner, for coffee. You know, it's not just a professional board of directors.
Grainne: They're also genuinely now my friends, and we celebrate birthdays together. and it just, I think, helps keep you sane in, you
Grainne: Busy world where everything's currently changing. Yeah, so it's great. I highly recommend it to anybody who hasn't already checked it out.
Leo: Yeah. Love it. I think that's such an important insight because I think it's, it's, yeah. People, people, people struggle to understand how fast paced the industry is, but I also like, especially in your role, your, we were talking about it beforehand. Where, you know, you're talking to operators and you're kind of, you are in a, in a position now with, with BGC, right?
Where that's very different from being at enterEntained. How have [00:25:00]you found that transition and, and moving into, into your current position and how, and holding Yeah. Being the, the, you know, speaking to, to operators in that capacity. Yeah Very different , I have been used.
Grainne: To being almost the backroom support, you know, working for Entain, agreeing, obviously helping to deliver the Entain strategy. obviously, you know, being the face of Entain in certain elements, but also kind of deferring to other folks within Entain. I only really had one course of action, which was the Entain Way. So again, in hindsight, life was a lot easier before because I had one strategy to deliver. now obviously I have one strategy at the BGC, but I have a lot of members that we engage with. We listen to, we [00:26:00] negotiate, you know, we try where possible to present the consensus view and speak with one voice. I. But you know, I'd be disingenuously if I was sat here saying that that's easy to achieve on every issue. 'cause it's definitely not. And that wasn't something that I was necessarily exposed to at, you know, you have your kind of internal, negotiating. But you're all under the same banner. Whereas here I'm trying to bring together lots of different ideas, concepts, positions, commercial interests, to get to a place which is a better or greater good for the industry. And that is easier on some aspects, and it is on others. Depends what the issue is. The industry I'm now proud to say does speak with one voice, but. I probably hadn't planned for the process of getting to that point internally, you know, behind the scenes. which [00:27:00] again is why for me, the personal board of directors is really important as a sounding board, because I'm not necessarily, well, I'm definitely not a marketing guru. You know, so if
Grainne: Some marketing and advice or assistance, yes, I can get it internally at the BGC. Yes, I can go to members, but equally I can go and get an independent view from my personal board of directors, some of whom are marketing experts. You know? Same with product
Grainne: It just completely broadens your horizons and gives you a whole other world.
Of expertise and knowledge and advice, which you don't get directly at work and you don't get at home if your, you know, family aren't in the industry. And it's an expert but independent layer, which, that, it's literally priceless for me in, in navigating my new role.
Leo: Love that. I love that. I, you know, and I can so imagine that because [00:28:00] something like, changing for the better at Entain, right? You get everybody behind it. And then the complete, like you said, everybody's under the same banner and everybody moves toward that same, same goal positioned you guys as an industry leader on, on safer gambling.
And, but I also imagine that, with the white paper implementation now or with, affordability checks, right? There's such. Different, there's no, there's such different opinions on how, on implementation on kind of what that means for, you know, for the business itself. So how do you, how do you manage such high stakes and, and complex challenges with, with those partners?
Grainne: Yeah, so I would actually say on most issues, the members are aligned. So if we look at the white paper, the BGC was supportive of or calling for most of the issues that are within the white paper. So that's, that's a really good starting [00:29:00] point. but it's not just the members that we obviously have to communicate with and negotiate with.
we are, I would say, aligned. But we then have to make sure that we're talking to the government and we're talking to the regulator and we're talking to the media, and they're not necessarily always aligned on, you know, our, our, our path or our course of action. So way I've found to navigate it is to really be an expert in the particular subject.
So you are talking from a position of evidence and knowledge. not going into conversations and negotiations with a position with nothing to back it up with. and also being kind of understanding of the, I wouldn't say opposition, but the other person's position. So, you know, we are at point A and they're at point B. Is there a middle ground in between [00:30:00] which helps our position and helps their position so nobody is coming out of it feeling. Like they haven't necessarily got out what they were trying to get out of it, because we all genuinely agree that things like affordability are the right thing to do for the industry. We just need to make sure that we deliver it in the right way Yeah.
The premise and we accept the principle, but let's work together on how we actually get there and practice. And you know, we test and trial it. If it's not working, we revisit, we test and trial it again until we make sure we get it right. I think it's about being and conciliatory rather than, you know, trying to railroad people into your way of thinking.
Leo: Yeah, it's, yeah, it makes sense And, and, and I think it's so easy to, it's also so easy to make the wrong decisions. Right. On, on, on kind of either side of that, on going too, going too restrictive or going, or not being restricted. [00:31:00] Like all of that is, is such a difficult balance because there is no one answer.
There is no, you know, there is of course, there is of course research and there is of course, but, but in the end. It's all opinions on how to, how to implement, and this will be very different between different operators. So how do you, what do you find, what, what do you find most challenging in, in your role today in, in those conversations that you're having and in, in the day-to-day interactions that you have?
Grainne: Yeah so I think there's always going to be a debate. You know, when you have opposite sides of an argument or something, there's always going to be a debate. I think one of the things that
Leo: I find Most challenging, not necessarily on affordability, but one of the things I find most challenging is how skewed the debate can sometimes get.
Mm-
Grainne: So media debate, you know, the kind of public debate about betting and gaming. Can often [00:32:00] be very one-sided and often isn't founded on evidence, it's
Leo:
Grainne: Or it's, you know, preconceived ideas. It's not actually grounded in the reality or the figures or the facts or the numbers. And so one of them key focus areas for me at the BGC is to set the BGC up to be the evidence led body. Which has access to industry data and can almost bust some of the myths that are out there in order. So we have a kind of true reflection of what's going on, and the debate isn't skewed one way or another. I'd say that's probably my biggest challenge and it's also my biggest frustration, you know, when I read things that just simply aren't true, and it's
Grainne: The standards body to really challenge that, which is what we're doing.
Leo: Yeah. Love it. such a great point because, yes, very often it's anecdotal or very often it's, opinion [00:33:00] led and, and completely agree. It needs to be, needs to be data, data led. so I love that. Love really, really think that's a, that's a great point. some final questions. if you go back to, to that person that had to rebuild herself, you know, after, after the, um.
After you came back from maternity and after that demotion and like, there's so many other people that will, even listeners that will, will go through that same situation, might be in that same situation where perhaps through a merger or perhaps for a reorganization, they find themselves in very uncertain waters.
If you would go back to that person those years, all those years ago, what would you, what would you tell her to help her with, managing those challenges?
Grainne: Great question. I would tell her stay strong. Um. It will get better, even though it didn't necessarily, or doesn't feel like at the time it will get better. [00:34:00] I would say, you know, continue to hold your head up high, continue to do your best work. It's only a blip, know, trust your instinct and basically you will be able to build back better from it. You know, kind of, I won't swear, but don't let them get you down is probably what I would say to
Grainne: Younger self.
Leo: Love that. Okay. And, my very last one, so for anybody that's on the other side of it, so for anybody feeling isolated at the top, perhaps because they're, they've progressed very quickly, high level position. Their partner doesn't want to hear about work anymore, their friends don't understand because they're not in the industry and perhaps they can't talk to their team because the team would freak out if they knew what was really going on inside.
What would you say to them? What are some of the things that have helped you most to kind of manage the isolation that we all sometimes [00:35:00] feel in.
Grainne: Yeah, no, I get that. So it can be very lonely, in whatever position you're in, if you're going through a difficult time. It. I mean, it sounds a bit like a plug again for global gaming women, but if you are a female in the industry, I would say try and build up a personal board of directors, whatever you call it, in whatever shape or form that takes.
Doesn't have to be via global gaming women. You know, maybe if you just have a network of women that you find you can talk to that might be able to help, then go for it. just as long as you have that network. I think that's really important. The network doesn't just have to be women. I would also say, so I've, I've had and have some really good male mentors that I speak to, you know, about female issues, but non-female issues.
So I think having a diverse whatever it looks like is really important. Um. And I would say find some time for yourself Don't again in whatever [00:36:00] shape or form that looks like. so I'm no athlete, but I like to go running because I find that it kind of clears my mind. you know, it doesn't have to be exercise, could be reading a book, could be learning a language. You know, just fixate on work. And the reason I say that and think that is because a few years ago somebody said to me in a similar kind of setting to this, work to live or live to work? And there was a realization for me that I actually lived to work and
Grainne: and actually I should be working to live. which
Grainne: Of rebalancing point for me in my life. You know, work is important, but it's not the be all and end all. We are more rounded beings than that. So, yeah, take time for Yourself's. would also say.
Leo: Love it. Thank you very much Grainner for being so open and honest and coming onto the podcast today. really enjoyed our conversation.
Grainne: Yeah, I've loved it.
Thank you for joining me on The iGaming Leader Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, [00:37:00] head over to iGamingLeader.com for more conversations and insights. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast.
I'm your host, Leo Judkins and I hope to see you next week.