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In Native Lights, people in Native communities around Mni Sota Mkoce - a.k.a. Minnesota - tell their stories about finding their gifts and sharing them with the community. These are stories of joy, strength, history, and change from Native people who are shaping the future and honoring those who came before them.
Native Lights is also a weekly, half-hour radio program hosted by Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe members and siblings, Leah Lemm and Cole Premo. Native Lights is a space for people in Native communities.
Native Lights: Where Indigenous Voices Shine is produced by Minnesota Native News and Ampers, Diverse Radio for Minnesota’s Communities with support from the Minnesota Arts and Cultural Heritage fund. Online at https://minnesotanativenews.org/
Peggy Kagigebi: 2-Spirit cultural reclamation, that's really my focus. My artistry is porcupine quill work on birch bark basketry. It's an art form that's rare and endangered, and I see a real strong connection between that and how colonization pushed 2-Spirit and Native queer people out of our communities, out of our consciousness.
Leah Lemm: Boozhoo, hello. Welcome to Native Lights, where Indigenous voices shine. I'm your host Leah Lemm. Miigwech for joining me today. Native Lights is more than a podcast and radio show. At its core, it's a place for Native folks to tell their stories. Every week, we have great conversations with wonderful guests from a bunch of different backgrounds, artists, doctors, educators, language, warriors, you name it. And we talk to them about their gifts and how they share those gifts with their community. And it all centers around the big point of purpose in our lives.
So it's another day, another opportunity to amplify Native Voices. And you know, we're getting there. My sibling and co-host Mr. Cole Premo is still on parental leave with his new baby. I think he'll be back soon, so I'm excited for his triumphant return when he does come back. But until then, it'll be me chatting with Penny Kagigebi today, and Penny is a direct descendant of the White Earth Nation. She is a 2-Spirit queer community collaborator, artist, curator and teacher. Penny focuses on birch bark basketry and quill boxes, and she describes herself as an advocate for joy and Mino-Bimaadiziwin through Ojibwe culture and arts. Penny lives in Detroit Lakes with her husband Rick, also a blanket maker and fiber artist. And what's exciting is Penny is curating a show called Queering Indigeneity for the Minnesota Museum of American Art. So really excited to speak with Penny, and here she is. Boozhoo, Penny.
Penny Kagigebi: Boozhoo. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Leah Lemm: Good Well, aniin and boozhoo, how are you doing? Thank you for joining me today on Native Lights, where Indigenous voices shine. Can you please introduce yourself and tell me where you're joining us from?
Penny Kagigebi: [Introduces herself in Ojibwemowin.] My name is Penny Kagigebi. I'm crane clan. I am a first-generation direct descendant White Earth Reservation Ojibwe. My mother was enrolled there. Father is a Scandinavian farmer. So much of everything that happened in my life was influenced by my mother's time in boarding school. Today I'm joining you from Detroit Lakes. I've lived off the reservation since I graduated from high school, but never very far away, like in the city of Detroit Lakes for like, over 30 years now.
Leah Lemm: Great. And how are you and the family doing?
Penny Kagigebi: Yeah, so we're, like, really scattered. I came to find out that like I looked at my mother's siblings and her parents. And then my parents continued this. It was like get out of here, get your high school education and leave. My dad would talk to me. He's like “The only thing here for you is death,” you know, like, like, literally talking to a teenager. “The only thing that is here for you is death. Go, go, go.” So subsequently, I'm like the only member of my sibling group that never left the state. I've always lived right here. I'm the youngest of 12, and then so when my parents were elderly, a lot of that fell to me to help with them and to make decisions, and it's been my brother and I that really worked to connect culturally to traditional ceremonial life and harvesting plants and learning art and learning how to go ricing. And you know, those things that are part of your everyday life, things that help me connect to the land here.
Leah Lemm: Wonderful. And what are you concentrating on or thinking about these days? What's top of mind?
Penny Kagigebi: What it takes for 2-Spirit cultural reclamation. That's really my focus. My artistry is porcupine quill work on birch bark basketry. So it's an ancient, ancient woodland tribal art form that's rare and endangered. And I see a real strong connection between that and how colonization, Christian boarding schools, how that pushed 2-Spirit and Native queer people out of our communities, out of our consciousness, I would even say. That caused many to believe that we didn't have value, that we weren't needed as part of the larger community.
Leah Lemm: And I know this is going to be important for the rest of our conversation. Can you say a bit more about 2-Spirit culture? 2-Spirit cultural reclamation?
Penny Kagigebi: For the only, the second time in my life, I was working on some baskets in like the winter 2021-2022, and over a period of about two weeks, almost this one basket, I was getting up at two, three, four in the morning and working on my baskets preparing for an art fair. And they call that like, there's like that twilight time in the morning. That's when the spirits are, like, so very active. And during that time of working on this one basket, it was like, all this information was kind of downloaded into me that this is what's missing in our communities. This was work that I needed to do, that I need to be highly visible as a 2-Spirit queer person.
I'm not putting that on anybody else, but I'm required to be that visible so that people can find me if they want to learn more about 2-Spirit cultural reclamation. It was really the impetus of all the work I've been doing for over the last three years. I heard a speaker who's passed away now, but I heard her talk about that there was a time when every 2-Spirit child that was born in a village was celebrated because they understood that that child was a gift to that community, and that that child was bringing gifts that were needed within that village or community. That is where I'm at. We need to go back to—I hear conversations that tribal communities need to be more welcoming or accepting and tolerating, and that's not enough. We need to be celebrated and uplifted, affirmed and empowered and truly do this for ourselves. This isn't an external thing that needs to come forward. It's like we need to understand what our gifts are, what our medicine is, what our path is here and pick that up and go forward and do that work.
Leah Lemm: And can you say more about those medicines and gifts? What do you see as being like a particular 2-Spirit gift?
Penny Kagigebi: Historically, we're told that, like the really powerful namers, like people that would receive names from 2-Spirit people, like those names that were given by that particular person were really powerful, important names in the community. Really a large variety of things. We're told that, because we were in that space between man and woman, that we carry a balanced perspective, so that we're valuable to come forward as mediators and someone who can, you know, speak to what is the larger picture here, you know, what's what you know? What are the some of the things that maybe someone's leaving out in there, having a disagreement about something? But when you look back at even in the literature, they talk about 2-Spirit people being leaders, warriors, even marriage brokers, because you know how better to get a feuding family, two feuding families to reconcile than to put their focus on the attention of the good of these grandchildren that are coming from this marriage. And the other thing I've learned is talking to just a lot of different people who have bits and pieces of all this knowledge. What I'm beginning to understand is that each of us are so very diverse that it's really necessary for us to do things like go out and fast and ask, you know, what are these gifts that I'm meant to carry forward through really, some intentional work to pick that up and carry that forward.
Leah Lemm: You're listening to Native Lights, where Indigenous voices shine. Native Lights is produced by Minnesota Native News and AMPERS, with support from the Minnesota Arts and Cultural Heritage Fund. Today we're speaking with Penny Kagigebi. Penny is a direct descendant of the White Earth Nation, a 2-Spirit community collaborator, artist, curator and teacher, and focuses on birch bark basketry and quill boxes. So when you speak to 2-Spirit cultural reclamation, you mentioned colonization. Can you say a bit more like, what happened to tribal values that uplifted and supported traditionally 2-Spirit people?
Penny Kagigebi: I've heard some speakers talk about how 2-Spirit and Native queer people were, like, strategically targeted in communities as people moved, you know, from landing on the East Coast and, you know, moved west. Like that, that would be an intentional target, would be to remove those 2-Spirit people, to destabilize that village as a result of that. Really, there was work done by families and communities to hide us, protect us. Not that we've ever stopped existing, but and then in the way of things, it's like those things that are hidden can become forgotten. And then also secrets can become shameful. Sharon Day was talking about she had talked to an elder from White Earth who spoke about that there was maybe in the 20s or 30s, there was a couple, two men, who were very active in the community that were well known as people who came forward and helped with every community activity. And that everyone knew that they had lived as a couple, but everyone in the community kept that quiet because they didn't want the priest to know about it. They didn't want government people to know about it. They didn't want them to become targeted. When Sharon was talking to this woman, the elder had said that, you know, maybe they were too quiet because, you know, you created this impression that we just didn't exist. And I did hear that. I've heard that from some traditional elders, where they've said we're just not there in the oral tradition, so we must have been a European idea.
I'm finding that's very much not true, that, you know, I'm starting to find some traditional stories that show us as being present in our origin stories. We've been here since we were descended from the stars.
Leah Lemm: Wow. And do you see what happened as a form of assimilation?
Penny Kagigebi: Certainly, there's a famous [George] Catlin writing. I'd heard about it, so I had to go find the book. And it's like field notes from 1846 or something like that. He just found these, I'm gonna use my language. I don't care for his language. But that he had found that these, you know, these 2-Spirit people were so repellent to him that he was not going to record their existence any further, because he didn't want knowledge of them to continue and to go forward. And that was so telling to me. It was like it was intentional,
Leah Lemm: I see, well, here we are today, yes, and there is this exhibition Queering Indigeneity.
Penny Kagigebi: Yeah.
Leah Lemm: Lay it on me, Penny. Can you tell me about it? I'm curious. You know, I've seen a bit about it.
Penny Kagigebi: It opens at the Minnesota Museum of American Art in St Paul. Including myself, there are 16 artists that are exhibiting work. There's like 60 pieces of artwork, a good deal of it, like a significant portion, majority of the work is created for this exhibit.
All of the artists identify as 2-Spirit or Native queer. They share the geography of the Upper Midwest. And so we have people from Michigan tribes, Wisconsin, North Dakota, South Dakota, one person from Winnipeg, Canada. Manitoba, I should say. But then also Native people who are located here geographically. So they wouldn't necessarily have to be from a tribe that's here. Really large diversity of people. We have there's like an age range spanning 50 years, like our youngest artist is 21 and then we have an artist exhibiting who's in their 70s. I'm really focused on younger voices, because I feel like younger voices have knowledge that is a little less fettered by homophobia and transphobia that I experienced and others experienced in the 80s and 70s.
So 80% of the artists are under the age of 40. So more than three quarters of the artists are 39 or under, and most of the artists are emerging artists. Also, it's like this is their first exhibition in a museum or major gallery.
Leah Lemm: Great. And can you tell me more about the theme of Queering Indigeneity? What does that mean?
Penny Kagigebi: So it's really meant for each artist to figure that out for themselves, going back to that like having an individual meaning, like, how does that play out in your life? Is not meant to be defined for each and every person. But for me, it really goes back to the 2-Spirit cultural reclamation. It's the bringing the idea and the intent and the understanding of what it is to be a queer person back into Indigenous communities. And for myself, my artwork is--I do some traditional quill work and basketry work, but then I really like to do some stuff that's just outlandish and different, and people don't recognize it when they see it, and that's delightful to me. And me, I think of that as like in that way I've queered my artwork, and so just playing with that word, bringing that idea forward.
Leah Lemm: Mm-hmm. And what will people see when they come to the exhibit? What can people expect?
Penny Kagigebi: Very much like our group, it's very diverse. There's a lot of different pieces in there. I'm very grateful. Sharon Day's brought forward the “Tree of Peace” that she had brought out during the pandemic. She brought that into the M and assembled it in the sculpture lobby, the gallery that we're in. We kind of spilled out over into the hallways and the front lobby of the M. And we talked to artist Ryan Young about that concept. And Ryan had said, you know, we just can't be contained, like we, you know, they can't just keep us in the gallery. We're like, overflowing out of the gallery.
Leah Lemm: That's right, it's like a border.
Penny Kagigebi: So lot of new works and also a lot of mixed media. I find it interesting that these artists in particular, are really drawn to playing with different ways of putting things together that you would normally see. So I'm going to say, you know, just a lot of things that you're not expecting to see.
Leah Lemm: Fantastic. See that's just the right amount of intrigue. That's great. Well, why don't you tell me a bit about your artwork and how you got to be a part of this project or this exhibit?
Penny Kagigebi: I had really been making baskets and blankets and beadwork and things for ceremony gifts for quite some time. I had always wanted to learn how to make quill boxes, and I had an opportunity to do that. And in 2014 I went to Bena at Leech Lake Reservation, and spent time learning from Mel Losh how to make quill boxes. And then started exhibiting work around 2018 and wanted to get into this more full time.
So around 2022, Joe Williams from the Plains Art Museum saw some of my work and had invited me to teach. And also during that time, I started thinking about this 2-Spirit cultural reclamation, what needed to come forward with that one of the things that was important to the collaborators for the Queering Indigeneity exhibit was for people to understand that, you know, this wasn't something that was pulled together, you know, the last minute that you know, this is some kind of reaction to this current administration. This has been in the works, in process, since 2022.
I'd written a grant in 2022 to work with six collaborators at White Earth, and we had done a project together, and one of the aspects of that was to possibly help them with professional development, help them bring work forward to exhibit. But didn't have any idea of like doing a group exhibit, and it was suggested to me these people could actually come together in a group exhibit. And I'd reached out to Laura Joseph at the M and between Laura Joseph and Kate Beane, like they just gave me an automatic, like, not automatic, but an immediate, an immediate, yes, in February of 2023. And part of the mentorship and professional development is even extended to me.
This is my first time curating an exhibit. Lot of credit to Laura Joseph for being willing to take that on. She took a job in New Mexico. She'd been recruited to go out there to work, and so for the last 15 months, I've been working with Ben Gessner. He's the project manager for this at the M and Ben has really been mentoring me on the curation and just different aspects of how this exhibit could come together.
What's really exciting to me is like the time that I'm getting to spend with each of these individual artists. And, you know, when we started talking about what, what would they want to bring forward to exhibit, and my question always was, it was like, “What's your wildest idea? What's the, you know, what's the thing that you like, kind of hadn't you know in your back pocket that you hadn't had a chance to bring forward yet? Let's see if we can bring that to life.” Because, you know, we had some time, some of these artists had been working on these pieces for two years, and you know, it's a little different when you're someone calls you up and says, you know, can you put something in my exhibit? It's coming up in six weeks. You know, that you got to kind of move a little more quickly to be able to respond to that. But when you have two years and some time to think about it, and some financial support to get there. Suddenly, some things are possible that you didn't you know hadn't been possible before. I had a conversation online with one of the collaborators, and one of the things that they had expressed is that they don't see why people need to limit themselves to like this is how we've always done it.
There's even some contemporary aspects of our artwork in our communities that, well, it's okay to do this traditional work, and here are the ways that are okay to do it in a contemporary way. But we can sometimes be critical as a community if someone goes too far off in another direction. They had expressed that to me, and I reflected back to them as that, that that really sounds to me like that's the core of what it is to be. You know that 2-Spirit cultural reclamation is if we're living our lives fully as who we are, that expresses such freedom. And why can't everyone live their lives freely? And I think actually, like that's the big threat of what it is to be 2-Spirit or Native queer person, is that if we're in a world where what's valued is compliance and conformity. It's scary to be around someone who's just living their lives freely and doing what feels right to them despite what may be what the crowd is doing.
Leah Lemm: You're listening to Native Lights, where Indigenous voices shine. Native Lights is produced by Minnesota Native News and AMPERS, with support from the Minnesota Arts and Cultural Heritage Fund. Today we're speaking with Penny Kagigebi. Penny is a direct descendant of the White Earth Nation, a 2-Spirit community collaborator, artist, curator and teacher, and focuses on birch bark, basketry and quill boxes. This ability to express, or like, the feeling of safety of expression, that's not always the case, which is really intriguing to talk about.
Penny Kagigebi: Oh, I was just gonna say, we've really been focusing really intentionally on relationship building. Have us all come together and as a community. So we've been meeting online seasonally from 2024 through the spring of 2025. We came together to develop, you know, what are our values for this exhibit. We initially started out as a small community collaboration of just six or seven of us, and then as more people were invited in to be this larger community collaboration and to really, you know, be able to express to people that being 2-Spirit or Native queer person there's it's not a monolith. If we can accept and have relationships and celebrate the differences in each other, how valuable that is, we can use that as a springboard and going forward and what we want to do in life. And what's really interesting to me is that it's like, it's not just here. I'm seeing exhibits popping up all over the place, across the West Coast, in Canada, in Minneapolis on the East Coast. There are a lot of 2-Spirit and Native queer groups coming together to exhibit in similar fashion. And in 2022 and 2023 I couldn't find a single one, even historically like I could never, I couldn't find anybody who had been doing it. But it's needed now, and it's coming forward now.
Leah Lemm: Can you say what those values are for the exhibit?
Penny Kagigebi: The agreed-upon values that we developed were that we are queer Indigenous people. We're connected to the Midwest as a geographic location. But despite that, we are, each of us because of our tribal values, our community values, and who we are as people, each of us are very different. And that we define for ourselves what Queering Indigeneity is. We are united, yet we are able to come together with our differences and then that the artwork that we make is as diverse as we are. Our individual expressions are not lost, and we're not at all endorsing any idea that there should be some pan-Indian definition of what it is to be 2-Spirit person at this time. We also offer grace and compassion to each other. It's like there's an understanding that what my statement may be today will evolve and change as I learn and grow and I may have a different statement to make in 12 months or 24 months or 20 years.
Leah Lemm: Thank you for that. And I'd like to hear more about the idea of Art and Healing. You mentioned it briefly there, Penny, and I've heard and noticed that you've talked about that before in past interviews. Can you say a bit about that in relation to this exhibit or 2-Spirit, Native queer identity?
Penny Kagigebi: For myself, I've taken a lot of value in my work is primarily with materials that are harvested here from the land. What I've been taught is that there's a vibration here that is healing to Native people who are from here. So when I put my hands on birch bark, porcupine quills, or even as I pick sage and gather sage and work with medicine plants, that vibration is able to help me center myself to what's happening right here. That the earth provides healing for us in that way. That's why we're encouraged to spend time out on the land. We're encouraged to go fasting. Is to, you know, actually have that vibration come into our bodies and help us to heal. And I believe that for artists who aren't necessarily working with traditional materials, the cultural understanding and the things that they're bringing forward, the expression that they're allowed to bring out freely, is also very healing for them. And what I've heard from individual artists, privately, speaking to me, is that just the act of being able to freely express themselves and to be recognized and celebrated has been healing for them, that you know, that they can recognize themselves as 2-Spirit people that have valuable gifts, that have a path and a purpose. Here at this time.
I have a son who had passed away in 2008 and I'd done a lot of artwork in that year following his passing, as we put together a bundle for a ceremony of gifts to send over to him. And I don't know, I'm a researcher, so I was looking at, you know, what's the connection between grief and making art and healing, and there's a lot there for us, and I believe that historic trauma is at its core. Like it's our grief of just all the things that had happened, and our disconnection from the land, our disconnection from ourselves and our culture. And we all have these elements. I have a friend who's passed away now, but she would talk about that. She believed that our purpose, each and every one of us, was to come here to create in some way, and whether that's with paints or with beads or with porcupine quills, or with how what we create out in the communities. But we all express that in some way, and if we're not expressing that, that there's some stifled part of us that wants to come out and do that.
Leah Lemm: I want to say thank you to Penny Kagigebi for taking time to chat and share more about your art and more about the history and gifts of 2-Spirit people. She mentioned creating art as an act of truth telling, and that's definitely something I'll remember and take home with me and really think about. Oftentimes, we have hard conversations, and I need a little bit of healing myself. Maybe you at home. So taking some time to make some art sounds like a great idea to me. Chi-miigwech, Penny Kagigebi, and miigwech for listening. I'm Leah Lemm. Giga-waabamin. You're listening to Native Lights, where Indigenous voices shine. Native Lights is produced by Minnesota Native News and AMPERS, with support from the Minnesota Arts and Cultural Heritage Fund.