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Intersectional feminist conversations about doing work and life differently. Hosts Becky Mollenkamp and Faith Clarke talk with entrepreneurs, authors, and thinkers about capacity, care, bias, and burnout. We name the systems we're taught to ignore, and imagine what's possible when we stop performing and start being honest.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:05.761)
Hi Heather.
Heather Vickery (00:06.575)
Hi Becky, how are you?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:08.845)
Good, how are you? All right.
Heather Vickery (00:10.456)
doing okay. Okay, it's weird. Today is July 3rd. That's a dark day and we're supposed to talk about happy things. But also I'm like, mixed emotions all the time every day.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:23.735)
Well, actually, I want to talk about heavy things and how we deal with heavy things, which is the happy things, hopefully. But I don't think it would be fair to talk about, we're going to talk about retreats. And the whole reason for doing this is because Faith and I are doing a series this summer about women's invisible labor burn and how that can lead to burnout and the things that we can do to support ourselves as we carry so much of this invisible load.
Heather Vickery (00:28.366)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (00:42.797)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (00:50.606)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:50.999)
And that's why we're going to talk about retreats. But I don't think we can talk about the retreat part if we're not talking about the realities of what it looks like to be carrying all of this load that we're carrying as people. But before we do all that, tell the people who you are, Heather.
Heather Vickery (01:02.978)
Hi, I'm Heather Vickery. I'm a transformation coach. I settled on that. I'm like you, I've used every title under the sun in the last decade. But we're going with transformation because I help people go from where they are to where they want to be by learning to embody joy and lead from that. And I specifically do that through human design and NLP where we get to really truly know who we are, learn to know, and trust ourselves. And then we have to unwire all of the shit.
that's been put on us, that's not ours to carry or to believe or to follow and make space to show up for ourselves.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:40.769)
Yeah. Well, and so much of what we carry. Well, I think for all of us, there's this combination of things we carry. There is the stuff that people can see the work that we're doing, the parenting that's obvious, the parts where you're actually, you know, actively being involved in that caretaking for elderly parents, all these things, right. And then there's also like the invisible stuff. And some of that looks like the things I have to be thinking about to make sure all of those other things get done. Some of it looks like though, like you're talking about
Heather Vickery (02:08.215)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:10.903)
when you came into this call, which is the weight of the world, right? That that is also part of the labor that we do is carrying the load of the worries about what this means for ourselves, for our children, for other people we care about, for the country as a whole, right? That is all also part of that labor that we're carrying. And I have noticed, and I'm curious if you're seeing a similar thing, what I feel like, and I don't wanna call this the gift of this year because it's not necessarily a gift, what I think, there we go, how about that, the lesson?
Heather Vickery (02:13.71)
You
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (02:36.696)
Well, there's a lesson. It's an opportunity, I suppose. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:40.413)
lesson of this year is that I see many people who have been carrying such heavy loads for so long, and I'm specifically speaking about women or folks who identify as women or non-binary, the loads that people have been carrying for so long that have become so normalized that it just feels like this is how it is. And this year, this added weight of what's happening feels almost like the thing that's breaking so many people. Like
because they didn't have any additional room to take on anything else. And this is huge. And it was like, it's the thing that's breaking people. And I think not that there's a gift, but there is a lesson in that, which is we can't be carrying the loads we've been carrying. This thing on its own wouldn't break us if it wasn't for the fact that we were already carrying such huge loads around. So I'm wondering, are you seeing things like that as well?
Heather Vickery (03:10.914)
Yep, it's too much.
Heather Vickery (03:29.166)
Absolutely. yeah, for sure. And I do think, and I consider it a gift, at least an opportunity to know ourselves better and to advocate for ourselves, speak up for ourselves. And I just had, I'll give you a really interesting example. am, nobody who knows me believes me, but I am an introvert. I have a, well, I'm a projector in human design. I don't have a motor. I...
rest first is like my number one pathway to success. Well, I have a partner who is an extrovert and wants to go, go, plays four hours of pickleball every day. And we have social plans for this Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And I just looked at her and I said, I don't know that I can do all of this. And she's like, well, maybe you should take a nap before we go out tonight. And she's lucky I didn't hit her.
Because I was like, really, you're going to tell me how to manage my energy? Is that what we're going to do? But anyway, I said, I'm just telling you something might have to give. Well, do you not want to do this and that? I don't know. I don't know yet. But I'm telling you, I'm informing you upfront. I'm going to advocate for myself that I'm a tender box right now. And I might not be able to do it all. I'll let you know. But that is stuff that we collectively have not all been able to do.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:46.413)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (04:52.494)
and still many people cannot do is A, and this is the core of my work and my retreats and the things that I do. And I don't sell anything or promote anything that I don't practice. So for me, it's about actually knowing myself well enough to be aware that that's what's happening, right? And then to go, okay, well, here what I take radical responsibility for myself. Okay, so if I'm feeling this way now and I know I have these things going on,
What are some options? What are some possibilities? How do I want to show up? Who do I want to be in this moment? And how do I communicate that so that I can have boundaries and get my needs met and still meet the needs of the people I care about? And that's real work.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:33.461)
It is real work, isn't it? And the problem with it being real work, I think, is sometimes we're so fucking exhausted that it's like we don't have the capacity to even do that work, right? At least that's what it feels like.
Heather Vickery (05:34.956)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (05:41.515)
You
Heather Vickery (05:46.06)
Yeah, it does. think it, especially when you're new and you're just getting started. I have a friend who says she can't do yoga because then all the parts will break. It'll just crack open too much. And I know people who don't like to be silent and still because they're afraid of what they're gonna hear if they slow down. I understand that, but I can also tell you having been mostly on the other side of that, I struggle with the same things everybody else does, but I move through them a little quicker now.
It is work, but it is such worthy work because you cannot sustain the way things are when you don't show up for yourself. It's just not sustainable. Eventually everything is going to break. You're going to lose things you care about, especially yourself. And, you know, I'm having a down day. That's okay. I said, Becky, I'm a little low today and I'm sorry. And you say, don't have to be sorry.
feel however you're feeling and I love that about you and it's one of the reasons that I so treasure our friendship. having the resources to be able to care for yourself and then others, right? Like, okay, well, what's my capacity if we're going through family tragedy or family struggle, right? Okay, who do I need to be in this moment to meet the needs of the people I care about and also manage myself? Like, what does that look like? And if we don't have these skills, we can't do it.
Not well.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:13.411)
Yeah, and and we will break, as you said, and that's where I feel like so many people are right now is that break. Like so many people feel like they're reaching a breaking point because capitalism has had them showing up in this like uber productive way and not learning these skills around not only just knowing themselves. That's important. Knowing when I need rest, then also even knowing how how to give themselves space, how to rest and all that. And we don't have those skills. And so people are really breaking right now and needing to learn all of these new skills.
Heather Vickery (07:17.741)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (07:26.798)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (07:34.508)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:42.743)
I want to talk about retreats as a tool for some of that work. But before we do, just quickly, you mentioned that you do work with NLP and human design. I'm just curious, how I think they get to that piece of understanding yourself and all of this. So maybe just talk a little bit about the role that that plays, you think, in this work.
Heather Vickery (07:44.654)
Okay. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (08:01.422)
Yeah. So often we show up in the world and I have, this has been my story too. We show up in the world the way we're told to show up in the world. We build the lives we're told we're supposed to build. You know, I didn't come out literally of the closet until I was 38, had been married for a decade and had four kids because it never occurred to me that that was a possibility. That sounds ridiculous now in 2025, I'm 50 years old. Like what?
I just did the thing. I just did the thing. I just did the thing all the time. I went to college, I got a degree, I got a job, I got married. Like, I just did the thing. All of that, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (08:37.325)
call it good girl syndrome. do what the good, we learn what a good girl is, how a good girl is supposed to show up and then we do the good girl things.
Heather Vickery (08:43.436)
Will it become so insidious that you don't, at least for me and so many clients that I work with, we don't even know there's another option. Except we get to a...
Becky Mollenkamp (08:51.341)
Right? Well, or we think the other option is too bad, right? Because if this is the way a good girl behaves, then the other is a bad girl, right? And we can't be that though, because we, especially I think white girls, most especially, are very much groomed into this belief that we need to be good girls. And that is the best thing you can be as a girl, is good, right? Boys are taught different, you get a lot of different messages. They're about being strong and whatever, but we learn to be good. And what good means is small.
Heather Vickery (08:58.734)
yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (09:06.157)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (09:10.609)
yeah.
Yeah. yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:20.223)
It's like how small, how quiet, how can you follow the rules, do what you're told. And the alternative to that then, if we're not being small, if we're not following the rules, if we're not, then the alternatives were being bad. And no one wants to be bad, right? They're shaming feeling like you're bad. So yeah, even if you knew there was an alternative or like had considered there could be an alternative, it probably felt like, well, I can't do that because that's bad and that makes me bad.
Heather Vickery (09:21.015)
It does.
Heather Vickery (09:32.802)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (09:44.024)
Well, it's interesting. So I have a counter approach to that. I know that is a true story for so many women. And I agree with you completely from a white woman perspective because we got to keep up that page here. We got to keep up the face of what makes us good enough to keep our privilege, right? But I actually wasn't a good girl. I've always been a loud mouth. I've always done what I wanted. I've always...
Becky Mollenkamp (10:00.771)
Hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (10:09.603)
Mm.
Heather Vickery (10:12.298)
spoken up. My stepdad said when I was four, she's a save the whales kind of girl. Like I always was fighting for the underdog and all of those things. And still, I didn't know I had an option other than to live the life that I was told I was supposed to live. So it doesn't necessarily have to be I'm not afraid of being a bad girl. I fuck that like I would love to be a bad girl. It says break the rules on top of my website. I don't give a shit. And I didn't even then I just didn't know.
that I could do it differently. That sounds so silly, but I think there are a lot of people out there who, and I just know that I didn't feel good and I didn't know what to do with that. And I didn't know how to process that. And it was a very slow process. the truth is, so you ask about where the work comes in. I started doing this long before I discovered human design, but I did discover positive psychology and I discovered somatic work and just reflection and.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:50.371)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (11:09.3)
and rest and listening to myself and meditation and all of these other things which all interplay together and started to create a level of awareness. And that's my favorite growth tool, y'all, is awareness because you cannot unknow the things that you then learn. So once you start paying attention, just like I said earlier today, now I'm like, this is what's happening with me and my mind and my body.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:28.291)
Hmm?
Heather Vickery (11:38.422)
and my energy and I have to do something about it because I'm not willing to live like this anymore. And so getting to know yourself truly, it's fascinating. When I do human design readings for midlife women, so often they go, gosh, I've fought that my whole life. everyone always told me that was so bad. That behavior was so unacceptable. You know, whatever it was. And I go, you get to do that. How can I fix that? You can't fix that.
That's how you're made. The question is, how do you work with it? What do you want to do now that you know? Right?
Becky Mollenkamp (12:15.715)
That feels like the key there, right? Is that realizing that you aren't a problem to be solved. You are great as you are, and it's learning how to be with that and honor how you show up. yeah, and whether it's, and I think human design is a great tool. There's a lot of other great tools. So whatever tool works for you, and I love that one, but finding those tools that help you shed light on how the filters you see the world through, because I think we often think everyone sees the.
Heather Vickery (12:21.026)
Yes.
Heather Vickery (12:27.758)
Perhaps.
Heather Vickery (12:31.832)
There are. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:42.583)
world through the same filter until we realize, no, we don't. And then honoring how we see the world and like loving ourselves for those things instead of trying to change it.
Heather Vickery (12:44.034)
We do not. Yeah, no.
Heather Vickery (12:52.67)
Absolutely. And then the NLP work, which is subconscious reprogramming, the truth of the matter is, like, I am all for a positive mindset. I believe in a positive mindset, not a toxic positive mindset. We have to be truthful and honest about what we're feeling and what we're experiencing, but mind does matter. Your thoughts become things. But if your mindset alone could get you everywhere you wanted to go, you'd be there by now. So what I like about this, and it's funny because I've been doing this work for a long time.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:15.553)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (13:22.178)
And I feel like I'm always just a couple of years ahead of the science coming out to say how, that's not just crazy spiritual woo-woo stuff, that's science. And that's what NLP work is, it's neuroscience. They now have proof, scientific evidence that we can reprogram thoughts, beliefs, behaviors, actions. And I got trained in how to do that, because I think that's really cool. I just love it and I enjoy playing in that space.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:46.583)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:51.169)
Well, and that speaks so much to also to the oppression inside of our systems, including science and health, where everything is anything that has historically been the domain of women is considered inferior, woo, not real, whatever, until men decide that they do the evidence, they find the evidence.
Heather Vickery (14:05.646)
Woo. Yes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:14.307)
prove it is. So anyway, let's talk about retreats because that's really what I want to spend most of our time talking about because I have hosted retreats. I've been on retreats. I think that they're fantastic and amazing. You host retreats and I want to talk about as we're talking about like just the overwhelm that people are feeling the like nearing burnout or there or just realizing this all the invisible labor they've been carrying and now like they're feeling like the weight has become too much. The role that retreats can play in that because I think
Heather Vickery (14:17.24)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:43.437)
There are many people who probably look at a retreat and think, that's just a fun vacation. That's just a like indulgent, selfish use of time that really isn't about healing. Like, sure. Yeah, no, you're just inviting me on an expensive vacation or whatever. So how do you see retreats playing a role in like actual healing and helping in this particular time that we're in?
Heather Vickery (14:49.454)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (14:54.542)
you
Heather Vickery (15:07.054)
Yeah, love that we're talking about this. I love that you're asking this question because I'm actually, I have been actively writing about this. I put it in on Substack for the last couple of weeks and worked on it a little bit today. This isn't a vacation. I mean, it's great. You're leaving your home, you're going somewhere. I think that retreats are great because they snap you out of, you know, a routine behavior just like.
stretching or going to get a drink of water or going for a walk in the moment does the same thing. It kind of snaps you out of whatever's happening. But a good retreat and one that's going to serve your needs, and they're all different. I personally don't often host what I call working retreats. Like we're not building businesses, we're not building life plans, but we are finding space for ourselves.
to listen to ourselves, to hear ourselves, we'll do some reflection, we'll do some subconscious reprogramming and some somatic movement, but it's about creating space. It's about reclaiming yourself. And in this world that we live in right now, that's a very radical concept of reclaiming yourself, of choosing yourself, of calming your nervous system, right? Simulating your parasympathetic nervous system. Those are big fancy words, but like...
making it so that you aren't on edge all the time and that you have the tools and the resources to move away from things that aren't serving you and that don't feel good. And it's a gift and it does cost money. And that's been my interesting struggle in the last year is money is hard. The economy sucks. I get it. I run a business. I lost a $40,000 contract due to Trump's anti-DEI policies. Like I know
what a shit show all of this is. And so then it can't be for everyone. Now, if I sell a certain amount, I can sponsor somebody, right? But I can't do it until I've got the capital to do it, because unfortunately, we do still live in a capitalist society. I wish I didn't have to. But if it's something that you can financially prioritize, that's the easy part.
Heather Vickery (17:31.658)
I say that tongue in cheek. It's picking yourself. saying, I mean, I have some people say, well, I've never been away from my family for six days. It's okay to go away. It's okay to turn off your computer. It's okay to put on your out of office. It's okay to rearrange your schedule. It's okay to pick yourself wherever you're going, whatever you're doing, giving yourself permission to show up for yourself and do something that's totally new.
completely out of the box. It's not the norm. Like this is not something I am suggesting anybody retreat every month. That's crazy, right? But we have to shake up our lives a little bit to be able to see things from a different perspective, to gain new tools and resources to support ourselves, to support our community and our families and our loved ones. And if we don't take advantage of the opportunities that are around us, I just think we're letting ourselves down.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:27.455)
Yeah, choosing yourself, allowing space for yourself, investing in yourself. Those are all really radical acts for women, for women, especially, right? Like those are radical acts and they are part of the resistance because a well-resourced woman is a threat, which is also why we as women are made to be under-resourced, right? We are systemically
Heather Vickery (18:32.459)
Yeah. Yeah. They really are. Yes.
Heather Vickery (18:45.3)
Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (18:50.99)
Yeah. Yes. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:54.371)
made to be under resourced. don't get the supports that we need. are given all of the tasks, the caretaking roles, all the things without supports. We are expected to perform in certain ways to show up all of these shoulds. We got to work. We got to have a house. We got to take care of the kids. We got to take care of our partners. We got to take care of our parents. We got to take care of our community, all the things. And then the world being heavy. don't think it's not by design. It is because the power structures know that well-resourced women are dangerous. We are a threat.
Heather Vickery (19:17.274)
of course it is.
Heather Vickery (19:23.392)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:23.809)
those systems. And that is why I know there are people who sometimes think investing in themselves, spending money on these sorts of things, taking time. And again, we have to acknowledge the privilege involved in that, of course. And if you have that privilege, this is a way that you use it to say, I want to use my privilege to make sure I am a well-resourced woman so that I can be that threat. If we just sit back and say, we allow guilt to say, I can't do that, or the programming, that's selfish, all that program we've got.
Heather Vickery (19:34.156)
Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (19:46.189)
Yes.
Heather Vickery (19:52.002)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:53.463)
That's all by design. It's all to keep us from becoming those well-resourced women that can make change.
Heather Vickery (19:58.114)
Yeah, yeah, yes. And when you are well-resourced and then you choose to invest in yourself, you are a wealth of resources for other people. And you cannot do that and be that for other people if you do not take the time to do it for yourself. You can't give somebody else what you're not willing to give yourself. And we live in a society, right? We live in a society that doesn't...
Becky Mollenkamp (20:23.156)
or from an empty cup.
Heather Vickery (20:27.118)
tell us that, but I'm, if you stop for just a second and think about all the moments in your life where you gave and gave and gave and didn't take anything for yourself and how well that turned out in the long run, you're gonna know that I'm telling you the truth.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:39.747)
Yeah, it's part of what's gotten so many folks right now into this place of burnout, to this place of complete overwhelm of where they feel themselves cracking under the pressure and breaking. And when we're in that place, when you are that under resourced, you can't do anything. And it's like you said, it's not sustainable. So whether it's going on a on a more elaborate kind of retreat like you're hosting or even like I often do, which is I do my own little mini retreats in my town where I get a hotel for a weekend.
Heather Vickery (20:43.156)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (21:06.08)
I'm a big fan, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:08.515)
We have to find ways to say, well, first we have to find the internal fortitude to say, deserve this, I'm allowed this, it's not selfish. Or if it is selfish, who cares, right? Like that's okay. We have to find the internal fortitude to grant ourselves the permission to do the thing. And then we have to actually do it and do it on a regular basis. Again, not every time has to be a week long. It can be a mix of these things. But it's important to find ways to pour back into our own cup so that we are a resource to be able to continue to give.
Heather Vickery (21:13.851)
Yes. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (21:24.386)
Yes.
Heather Vickery (21:29.794)
Yes.
Heather Vickery (21:35.726)
Absolutely, I love a good solo retreat. For me, if it's about an hour and a half drive from my home and I can spend anywhere from, and I have done anywhere from 24 hours to five days, depending on my schedule alone. Like we've mentioned earlier, I am an introvert. Like I love, I will grocery shop and I literally will not talk to another person. It's delightful that the idea makes my partner come out of her skin. Or, you know,
Becky Mollenkamp (21:56.803)
He is right.
Heather Vickery (22:03.118)
you're getting different things from that. That's you taking time to be with yourself and sit with yourself and hopefully you're doing some reflection. But you know what, if you're not, if you're just reading books and eating chocolate and I don't fucking care, like it doesn't mean you're taking, you're giving yourself what you need in that moment. It doesn't matter what you're doing in that space. If you have a certain need, you want some reflection tools, I can give you that. You know, you can find that if you want to do that. This, you know, this retreat that I happen to have coming up is a different experience than that because there is
Becky Mollenkamp (22:05.047)
Right.
Heather Vickery (22:32.448)
a community element. Sometimes it's very nice to get away from your normal community and create community with other people who want to hold space for you and help you see yourself in a different light. That's such a lovely gift. There are a ton of different ways you said that there are different, a ton of different types of retreats. I think the point is if it's something that you are even kind of curious about, find a way to explore it and show up.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:34.168)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:47.767)
It is.
Heather Vickery (23:01.88)
for yourself and choose yourself.
because quite frankly, we need you to.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:08.407)
Yeah, well, I'm curious too, because so I've been on mastermind retreats, which is, you know, basically the business kind of retreat. We're going there. Yeah, going there for the specific purpose of thinking about our businesses, doing some these bigger, higher level big picture planning. I've done solo retreats. I haven't done as much of the like what you're doing kind of a retreat. So describe for people, because I think we've kind of described those other two versions. What's this version that you're doing and how do you decide?
Heather Vickery (23:14.508)
Working retreats is what I call that. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (23:34.637)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:36.641)
What's kind of right for you? Like what advice do you give people on deciding what kind of retreat might be right for them at the moment they're in?
Heather Vickery (23:38.286)
You
Heather Vickery (23:42.316)
Yeah, I mean, really that has to be self-defined to be totally fair. But this type of retreat is the definition of the word retreat. You are retreating from the things that weigh on you. You're retreating from the norm. And you're not necessarily coming into it to build something specific. So like a mastermind retreat, a working retreat, you have a plan, you have a goal, you come in and there are all these...
Becky Mollenkamp (23:46.211)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Vickery (24:09.594)
You're busy the whole time and there's all these things happening and it's probably great. This is about creating space and rest. It's about maybe trying some new things. So I went on a retreat. I was an attendee on a retreat in Majorca a few years ago and it changed my life. That sounds really, really over the top, but it really did because I was in a completely new space. I'd never been before. I spent a couple, a day before and a day after totally on my own, which is...
Becky Mollenkamp (24:28.003)
Mm.
Heather Vickery (24:39.436)
right up my alley in the middle of chaos and busy places, but with no obligation or expectation. And then we just tried new things. We did a sound bath in the middle of the mountains outside. I had one of the most transformative experiences of my life in that moment where I could literally see my ancestors and my children's children rise from oppression, like literally see it. could in my meditative state, we all rose and.
But you're creating space for these kinds of things, right? We also rested and we ate well together. And so my retreat in Costa Rica is an opportunity to shake it up by doing new things, exploring new places, trying things that maybe feel a little adventurous. The first time that I went to Costa Rica, I was a nervous wreck. I'm not really a jungle girl. I'm more of a lavender fields and Provence and some champagne kind of girl.
And they're, and I don't mean to freak anybody out, they're showing me like, oh, that hole over there is a tarantula hole. I was like, holy fucking shit. Okay, I'm fine, right? But I learned to show up for myself, to trust the people around me, right? The staff that was there to protect me and also the space and to share space with nature. And this particular one also, and this was huge for me, is a whole food shift, right? I'm going through perimenopause.
My body is bloated and swollen and I am cranky and angry and a few days of completely plant-based eating. So not vegan, but plant-based, gluten-free, dairy-free, which a lot of people are like, no, I don't want to do that. Alcohol-free, my body felt better than it's felt in the last 20 years. No joke, right? So it's just a chance to reset and to maybe learn some, I'm going to help people with a few tools. How do you move somatically slowly to
get connected with your body, to recognize your intuition a little bit better, to know what it is that you seek, right? Because we're so busy with all the noise all the time that we don't even know what it is that we need. And that's what I hope these types of retreats, these actual restful, peaceful, but with community, there's some planned activities, but a lot of time to be and to explore. They give you the space to build out your own personal
Heather Vickery (26:59.054)
toolkit to show up for yourself.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:00.299)
Yeah, I mean, I feel like certainly the times I've done working retreats have not been in this current environment. And I couldn't do that now, I don't think, because it's too much. But I think the idea of giving yourself space is just so powerful. Because when I think about like the difference between a vacation, any mom anyway, and probably most women, I mean, this is I'm speaking very much right now to the moms. But
Heather Vickery (27:09.398)
Right?
Heather Vickery (27:23.223)
Hahaha.
Heather Vickery (27:28.29)
Hahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (27:29.475)
For those moms who are listening, we know a vacation is not restful. is not typically like, exactly, there's moments where you think, this is lovely and we're making great memories and there are things happening, but it's still carrying all that load that we're talking about. I gotta figure out who's gotta eat when, who hasn't eaten yet, who's wet their pants, or who's getting hangry and grumpy, or who doesn't wanna sit next to who. Just all of the stuff, that's not.
Heather Vickery (27:34.734)
Not if the kids are with you, no.
Heather Vickery (27:44.238)
and the schedule and the,
Heather Vickery (27:54.178)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:56.375)
This is why this is not a vacation. this is about truly about rest, disconnecting from the world and reconnecting with yourself. How do I get in touch with what I need? Some of the things you're talking about, learning about what your body needs. I think so many women have no idea. We are so disconnected from our bodies. Our bodies are sources of trauma. We very purposely, very often disconnect from our bodies.
Heather Vickery (27:57.911)
It's not.
Yes.
Disconnecting, yeah.
Heather Vickery (28:12.546)
Yeah. No idea. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:21.143)
But learning how to get reconnected to our bodies, to understand our bodies, what it needs, how we can be with our body. That's part of that resourcing you're talking about. Being in community with other people where you can say, holy fuck, this is so heavy. And them say, yeah, so that you know you're not alone. I think so many of us need that right now. And also just the spaciousness of saying, I get to have room in my world for me, which I think the older we get, many of us lose that. We lose who we are. And that is so important. And again,
Heather Vickery (28:37.933)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (28:46.146)
Yep. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:50.947)
part of that, how do I get resourced again so that I can continue to show up without collapsing?
Heather Vickery (28:53.471)
Absolutely.
Heather Vickery (28:57.646)
And it's a hundred percent true for moms. And I think we focus on that a lot because it's so big and it's so obvious, but I have a couple of clients who are single women and their jobs are demanding and they're overwhelmed and they still don't take the time for themselves. So this is super useful. have clients and I do have children, but I'm divorced, so I only have my kids half time. Even a vacation with my partner who I love very much isn't
completely relaxing for me because I'm worried about making sure she is getting her needs met and she has what she wants. And when are we meeting here? And sure, I can go read by the pool for an hour, but then what are we doing together? This is a separation from anything else in your life. And it's just you. You're just caring for you. You're loving on you. And quite frankly, I get to hold the weight for my retreat in Costa Rica. I get to hold the weight. I get to say, here, let me feed you. This is when I'm to feed you. Come on. I get, you know, like you just get to
Becky Mollenkamp (29:56.312)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (29:56.846)
show up or not. If you're like, yeah, I don't want, I don't, I'm not gonna, I don't want to do the active breath work or I, you know, I'm going to sleep in this morning. That's okay. You can have control, but just show up and create space and let somebody else lead. You know, how often are we like, I don't want to pick what we're having for dinner tonight. I don't care. I just, I don't want to think about another thing. And it's so nice to be able to go somewhere where somebody's put a lot of thought and attention.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:17.088)
huh.
Heather Vickery (30:23.19)
into nurturing you and caring for you. And all you have to do is choose to show up for yourself.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:27.701)
Yeah, in a couple weeks in the same series, I am going to be having conversations with Pageworthy and Maykay Singh, both of whom who have done sabbaticals. They're self-created sort of sabbaticals. And talking about that as an alternative or an option, a way to avoid burnout, to avoid this crumbling, to care for ourselves in this time. And that's why I was like, think retreats, it's another important piece. It's like...
Heather Vickery (30:34.924)
I love Paige.
Yes, delightful.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:52.771)
What are all of these tools, these possible tools that we have at our disposal that we so often don't allow for ourselves? Because again, of all this programming that it's selfish, it's not productive, it's, if I'm going to do a retreat, it's got to be a working retreat, like all this messaging we have, right? And so I think it's important to know that we do have tools available to us. And again, obviously there's privilege involved on what tools you're able to access and all of that. And I wish and hope for the day when that changes, when a retreat like this is available for everyone. But it...
Heather Vickery (31:06.017)
Right?
Heather Vickery (31:18.531)
Me too.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:21.877)
If you are someone who has that privilege, just because we have the privilege doesn't mean we use it all the time, right? And then we aren't allowing ourselves these things. So we need to access these kinds of tools.
Heather Vickery (31:27.051)
No.
Heather Vickery (31:31.918)
We do, we do. And again, and I think this is fascinating. I recently, this is a long story. I actually did a whole sub stack post about it if anybody's curious, but I met a woman, I was getting my blood drawn and she saw my tattoo, which says be here now. And she's like, what does that mean? And I said, it just reminds me to be right here in this moment right now because it's all we have. And she said, I think I needed that. She said, things have been really dark lately.
And so I just started asking some questions because it's just the way I operate and to holding some space for her. And the truth is she was so unaware of the tools and resources that are so second nature to me, journaling, reflecting, meditating. I mentioned something about theater should know. You know, like we don't realize how little access so many other people have. But when you are resourced,
you can help people get access. so long story short, but I'm gonna drop off one of my gratitude journals for her with a note that says, you want to reach out and look, here's the link and come hang out with us because she doesn't, I mean, she probably doesn't need a lot, but she could, if just a little, just a little space being held for her, just a small tool or resource to calm herself and to look at things from a different perspective.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:53.036)
Yeah.
Heather Vickery (33:00.504)
could drastically change her life. And it became so clear that I needed to be in that moment to be having that conversation with her. And that's the gift that we can give to other people when we care for ourselves properly.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:11.821)
Well, the same way you were saying you didn't realize you had a choice, right? And what your life might look like. think many women just don't realize there's a different way things can look like we you are allowed to take space for yourself. You are allowed to prioritize yourself, even if you do have kids, even if you do have sick parents, even if you do have an important job. All of us are allowed to prioritize ourselves, care for ourselves, take space for ourselves.
Heather Vickery (33:14.764)
I didn't know. That's exactly the same.
Heather Vickery (33:23.746)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:35.585)
And not only are we allowed, we need to, we need to. But often we just don't know that. Like it's just truly as much as I didn't even know I could do that. And then even when that starts to crack open, for many women it becomes, I don't know how. Then it's like, I don't know what. So that's why I think these conversations about some of the tools and resources that are available to help. so again, we'll be talking about sabbatical soon, retreats.
Heather Vickery (33:37.986)
We need to.
We don't know.
Heather Vickery (33:46.018)
you
You don't know how.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:57.579)
whatever they may look like, whether again, it's like you take that week into yourself because that's what your, you know, your privilege allows, or you have the ability to go to Costa Rica for a week and really give yourself the maximum kind of spaciousness, whatever that looks like. This is a tool that's available. Again, there's privilege involved, but we can find ways to make it more accessible for all of us. And again, if you have that privilege, then going to Costa Rica for a week sounds amazing. When is your retreat by the way?
Heather Vickery (34:16.012)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (34:23.832)
Sounds amazing. January, 2026, the 21st to the 26th. Exactly. Right. Yeah, no, it's gonna be amazing. And you touched on something that I think is important. My work meets where somebody has realized that something has to shift, but they don't know how. I don't need people to know how. I need people to say, I don't know how, but something has to change. I can help you figure out how.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:26.849)
Ooh, good time of year when everything's cold. If you live in a place like you, where it's really cold in January, getting to Costa Rica sounds amazing.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:53.239)
Yeah, yeah. And so for anyone who's interested, where do they learn more about your retreat and about you?
Heather Vickery (34:59.5)
Yeah. So, vickery and co.com is my website. If you go to dash social vickery and co.com slash, I said dash slash social, you'll see all the places I'm on Tik TOK and blue sky and sub stack. I'm not on any of the meta platforms that was, stuck that resistance flag in the sand on that one. or just email me Heather at vickery and co.com because I, you know, I like to hold space. do a free open office hours every Tuesday at 12 PM central.
which anybody is welcome to come ask any questions you want or explore or just get to meet me. And then I do a live show on, I'm also on LinkedIn, LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok and Substack every Thursday at 12 with different topics. like there's, I try to always make something available for everyone, except for those folks who don't even know these things exist. try it, learn about it, share it with somebody else. could, you could literally change somebody's life just by amplifying a message that you think would resonate with them.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:59.637)
And I don't think it's hyperbole to say a retreat can change your life. I have had that experience. Yeah. So I agree with you. I've had that experience. And again, even just the hotel retreats, but also bigger retreats I've been on, it really does. It can substantially transform how you show up for yourself because it is this time you're it's more than anything. Again, it's that like committing to yourself and making yourself a priority. And we and we can't do that by just thinking about it. We actually have to take some sort of action to make it happen. Right. And so.
Heather Vickery (36:03.595)
Not at all. Yeah.
Heather Vickery (36:20.29)
Yes.
Heather Vickery (36:27.63)
100 %
Becky Mollenkamp (36:28.949)
Is it slash retreat where they learn about the retreat, the green code? No. okay.
Heather Vickery (36:31.646)
No, that's complicated because it's slash Costa dash Rica. But it does, there are lots of places on my website where it says events and retreats like linked to in the show notes.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:39.075)
Okay, I'll link to it the show notes. If anyone's interested in the Costa Rica retreat, specifically in January, it'll be in the show notes and then also all the ways to connect with Heather. Thank you so much for having this conversation and being part of this series that I think is just really, really important that we're doing this summer. So thank you. Of course. I hope that you're leaving with a little better energy, not toxic positivity, but just a slightly better energy. You look like it.
Heather Vickery (36:45.622)
Yeah. Awesome.
Heather Vickery (36:51.52)
It is so important and thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted. I can't wait to hear what everybody says about all the fun tools.
Yeah, it is better energy. You always make me feel a bit more grounded and centered and seen and even for lack of a better term held a little bit. it's being heard. Yeah, thank you. That's nice. Yay.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:11.905)
Yeah. And you do the same. You do the same for myself and others. So thank you, Heather.