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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00:00:00:03 - 00:00:19:01
Speaker 1
I don't believe there is such a thing as a bad parent. Yes, of course there are. Parents were abusive and they're a different category. But most parents are absolutely doing their best, and they care so deeply about the way they're bringing up with their children to the point of, you know, saying things like, oh my God, I said this to my child.
00:00:19:02 - 00:00:30:07
Speaker 1
Will it harm them? And I'm like, no, of course not. Like, of course not. Because the fact that you're questioning it tells me you're a really good parent.
00:00:30:09 - 00:01:04:23
Speaker 2
Welcome to Best Beginnings, a podcast from Baby Zone. My guest today has spent over 20 years as a clinical psychologist working with children and families. She trained at UCL and the Tavistock and spent 12 years in the NHS, working in pediatric teams with families navigating some of the hardest circumstances imaginable life limiting conditions, chronic illness and cancer. She was the lead psychologist for the East of England's Diabetes Network, and she set up teen and young adult cancer services at Guy's Hospital.
00:01:05:03 - 00:01:30:05
Speaker 2
And what she's taken from all of that is deceptively simple idea. The most powerful thing you can do for a child is to understand yourself. She has an Instagram community of over 290,000 people who turn to her because she speaks about parenting in a way that's warm, evidence based, and completely free of judgment. Her Sunday Times number one bestselling book is called How to Be the Grown Up.
00:01:30:06 - 00:01:51:04
Speaker 2
And her second book, The Smartphone Solution, is already in the hands of thousands of parents across the country. She's also a mother of two. Her name is Doctor Martha, and I'm really glad she's here today with us. So, Doctor Martha, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate this opportunity to speak with you. I guess I want to start with the background.
00:01:51:04 - 00:02:13:04
Speaker 2
And you've spent a long time as a clinical psychologist. You've got over 270,000 followers on Instagram who turned to you every week for advice and guidance. How do you describe what you do? How do you prioritize what you do and who are you doing it for?
00:02:13:08 - 00:02:40:01
Speaker 1
I created my community during lockdown on Instagram. I was not even on Instagram before lockdown happened. And then I guess what happened over lockdown is that parents felt in an extreme situation, extraordinary situation with their children in need of support and all those kind of everyday supports that we used to have, like our friends, our neighbors, the playgroup, they all disappeared.
00:02:40:02 - 00:03:01:03
Speaker 1
So I think online became a bit of a hub for parents to feel connected, to feel supported, to get resources. And so the first thing I did was to ask people what they would like me to talk about. I kind of introduce myself and my clinical psychology. I'm also stuck in my house with a tiny little one. She was one.
00:03:01:03 - 00:03:26:01
Speaker 1
So tell me what you want to talk about and I'm happy to discuss it. I'd worked in the NHS for 18 years, so I felt like I could offer people something, and I never really expected it to grow. Like, I don't know, maybe I was really naive, but I was just doing it from that point of view of needing connection for myself as well as a mum and realizing that parents needed something.
00:03:26:01 - 00:03:49:16
Speaker 1
So I offered them what they wanted. So I think my community has remained similar. I still offer people the content that they ask for. I still very much ask people to tell me, what do you want more of? And I will create it for them. So you'll probably see a real mishmash of content on my page, and it's because I'm trying my best to offer people what they want and what they need.
00:03:49:18 - 00:04:09:13
Speaker 1
And I like to think that I'm a trusted voice on social media. I think one of the things that can happen online is that everybody's an expert on everything. I actually spend a lot of time telling people that I'm not an expert on anything, especially not parenting. But I am a clinical psychologist, so what I try and deliver is science that you can put into practice.
00:04:09:13 - 00:04:33:17
Speaker 1
And of course, not everything I say is going to fit for every child. So the thing I say continuously, and that is also why I wrote my book, is that you are the expert in your child as a parent, and maybe the science. You see them as tools that you carry alongside you that might help you navigate those sticky moments with your kid, but you have to be able to adapt them for them to work well.
00:04:33:19 - 00:05:15:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's it's actually right. And we see every family that we work with has their own situation, their own scenario, and every child has their own challenges and complexity. So you're right. There's never a one size fits all kind of approach and methodology that you can just deploy. I love that anecdote about being kind of stuck at home during the pandemic and just thinking about that myself, and I guess while that was a challenging situation both for parents and families, also quite interesting as an opportunity for your field to be democratized, to be open sourced, and to be more readily available for families and parents that wanting to learn, wanting to have a conversation with
00:05:15:14 - 00:05:44:00
Speaker 2
people like yourself, I guess. What's the impact been five years later, five years down the track, how would you retrospectively look at the impact of that moment and the sort of the open sourcing of your content online to different social media channels in the way that you described having a qualified professional, supporting parents, not in a sort of 1 to 1 face to face consultation, but in their homes, readily accessible when they've got the questions that they need answering.
00:05:44:00 - 00:06:04:19
Speaker 1
I think there's, you know, it goes both ways. I think there's pros and cons to absolutely everything. I think I'll start with the positives because that's kind of aligns with me. I'm one of those people who always tries to find the positive in most things in life. I'm incredibly grateful that I had this opportunity, but I also think it's a really positive move for my profession.
00:06:04:19 - 00:06:29:20
Speaker 1
I'm not the only psychologist online. There's lots of psychologists online, and I think it's growing. And I think one of the things that I think it's allowed us to do is to move my profession, which I feel has always been a very guarded profession, a profession where it's experts kind of sitting in a chair, talking at, you know, talking to, talking at rather than with.
00:06:29:21 - 00:06:54:16
Speaker 1
And that's very different. And I think there's also been this sort of like closed doors around psychology, you know, like if you train for ten years plus and you have this knowledge, then you're one of the elite professionals and you know, you are here to support other people. Now, I believe that which is the truth, that mental health isn't any one thing.
00:06:54:17 - 00:07:21:22
Speaker 1
Mental health is complex. And I think there are parts of psychology that are part of our every single day. Most of what I talk about, if not 99% of what I talk about to me is knowledge that we should all have. It isn't something that I should have, because I've developed my career in psychology and ended up training to work with children and families and becoming a family therapist.
00:07:22:02 - 00:07:46:23
Speaker 1
It should be everyday knowledge. It should be general knowledge. I actually believe that a lot of what I say should we talked about in schools. Like I believe my daughter should be learning about emotions in the way I talk about them. I believe everyone should have learned at school about child development, brain development or personal biology way more than things like plant reproduction.
00:07:46:23 - 00:08:09:07
Speaker 1
So my daughter talks about plants and reproduction and I'm like, who cares? Like, I mean, I love plants. So, you know, I'm saying that kind of flippantly but genuinely, we should all understand our brains. We should all understand what it takes to bring up a small human into the world. We should all understand attachment emotions because this is what we do every day.
00:08:09:08 - 00:08:33:02
Speaker 1
Like this is about us as humans. And to me, this is essential knowledge that we are not skilling up our children or ourselves with. So I think social media, there's pros and cons of everything, but one of the pros is the ability to offer this knowledge that most of it we've known for over 50 years, like it's not new science, it's well-established science.
00:08:33:02 - 00:08:55:00
Speaker 1
So we just keep over and over again saying, yep, these facts are still true, so why should we not have them? And especially as a parent with a new baby, I want you to know that when your baby cries, it's not because you're doing something wrong. It's often not because they're in serious harm. It's a form of communication, and all your child needs most of the time is a cuddle.
00:08:55:00 - 00:09:14:07
Speaker 1
Somebody to hold them, somebody to rock them, to kiss them, to tell them it's okay. You're safe, baby. Even if I can't stop the crying. Because the crying is just part of being a baby. Like I wish everybody knew that as opposed to parents being by themselves with a crying baby going, what am I doing wrong? Why won't my baby stop crying?
00:09:14:08 - 00:09:41:05
Speaker 1
Nothing. You're not doing anything wrong. That's just how babies are wired. So that's the pros. I think the cons is we do at the moment have an overwhelming amount of information thrown at us. I think, especially social media, opinions, facts, science. You know, parents saying this works is so overwhelming. I think when you go online, you will get so many mixed messages.
00:09:41:05 - 00:10:04:00
Speaker 1
And I think as a parent it can feel really tricky to disentangle. Yeah, the fact from the truth, the science from the opinion. So I'm one of those people that I try to help people understand that, you know, critical thinking really matters. It's something that we need to be kind of exercising more as adults and teaching our kids.
00:10:04:00 - 00:10:28:04
Speaker 1
I think it's the essential ingredient for this generation. So we need to be thinking, who is sharing the information? Who is this person? What are they getting from sharing it? You know, if they've created it, who for? What's the aim? What are they gaining from this? And a lot of the time my information comes from this is science and I'm translating it for you and I want to help you.
00:10:28:06 - 00:10:53:23
Speaker 1
And if you want to find more, yep, you can buy my book. You can do that, but you can just have what it is like. That's enough. Like, and I think it's really important to help parents disentangle like opinion from fact and science from truth and whatever. I think, science media can be really overwhelming and stressful. And the one thing I say to parents a lot of the time when they feel overwhelmed is just switch it off.
00:10:54:00 - 00:11:14:08
Speaker 1
They just stop because parenting doesn't come with a manual. Like you said, there's no one fits for. But sometimes what you need to do is just sit with your child, your toddler, your baby and just be with them. Forget the scripts, the strategies, the tools. Maybe they're there for another day, but if you're feeling overwhelmed, just be with your kid.
00:11:14:11 - 00:11:21:10
Speaker 1
Because at the essence of parenting is the relationship we build with our children, and nobody could teach us how to do that.
00:11:21:10 - 00:11:46:05
Speaker 2
It's so true. And we hear so often from families that we work with about isolation, but also anxiety triggering in terms of, as you say, social media, looking at other parents and sort of go, why can't my child do this? Or they seem to have it all under control. And the reality of it is it's very messy, it's very tiring and exhausting, and no family should be judged.
00:11:46:06 - 00:12:10:04
Speaker 2
Everyone is trying to do their very best. And I guess the sort of mantra that we try and convey is sort of how can we help parents each and every week become more confident, and some of that's to do with knowledge and the sort of accessibility of knowledge, but it's also that social proof. It's also just seeing other parents in the park or other parents when they're in a shared setting and going, we're all going through the same thing.
00:12:10:07 - 00:12:33:22
Speaker 2
We all have the same challenges and anxiety and questions. And I guess to your point, trying to build the kind of community some of that might be online. Some of these days, the digital world can provide a sort of an element of a community for parents, but also needs to also take place in the real world, in the sort of world at home, or where your face to face with other parents and children.
00:12:33:24 - 00:12:55:06
Speaker 2
I guess. Martha, on that point, what advice would you have for parents trying to be that little bit more confident that a little bit more knowledgeable so they feel like they're doing a good job? Is there anything that you tend to express or tend to try and say to parents so that they can reduce those anxiety, reduce those stress levels a little bit?
00:12:55:07 - 00:13:22:17
Speaker 1
I think what I tend to say is focus on the relationship with your child. Little ones build relationships through play and playfulness like that's their world. Like play is not frivolous. Play is how children process emotions, learn skills, communicate. Like when a child says, can you play mommy? Or you know, let's play like I've got a two and a half year old and she will drag my hand and be like, come on, we come, come, mummy.
00:13:22:19 - 00:13:44:19
Speaker 1
She's trying to tell me something. It's not just, let's play and have fun. Of course they want to have fun, but it's often a way of communicating something. They're trying to express a feeling, replace something that happened to them, make sense of something. And so it's in those playful moments where you usually see bits of your child that you might not have noticed.
00:13:44:23 - 00:14:04:01
Speaker 1
And what I tend to say with parents about confidence is your confidence grows over time. Like, don't expect yourself to be perfect. You're not supposed to be. That's actually not what children need. We have science on perfect parenting. It is not good for your kid to be perfect. It is really good for your kid to see you mess up.
00:14:04:02 - 00:14:27:18
Speaker 1
It is in the mess. It's in you making mistakes that you build resilience in your child. And we have some signs that you know getting it right. You only really have to be attuned or responsive enough to your child 30 to 50% of the time, like 30 to 50 gives you a wide margin of error. And that is healthy for your child.
00:14:27:19 - 00:14:51:02
Speaker 1
That is also healthy for you. So I believe in doing things. And like I also say to parents, make sure that when you do things, they feel good to you because sometimes when something feels bad, that's a clue that might not mean you've done it wrong. It might mean this is unfamiliar, and that's important. I think as parents of my generation, we're often doing things our parents didn't do.
00:14:51:03 - 00:15:13:24
Speaker 1
Like, for example, I mean, I talk about me and, you know, try and be very transparent about myself, but my mum didn't really play with me. It wasn't something she did like. Naturally. My mum was very busy. And so I think like lots of parents, she just worked around the house, was doing the house thing. So cooking played to her was like, that's something you do, but I don't really do it with you.
00:15:14:00 - 00:15:36:14
Speaker 1
And now, like I said, my toddler dragging me, sometimes I have this pull inside of me going, no, I don't want to do this, but I know it's because it's unfamiliar and it's awkward. And I'm like, my brain is an adult brain. I don't have this kind of fun, imagination creativity that my toddler has, but actually just accepting it and sometimes saying to myself, it's okay.
00:15:36:16 - 00:15:54:03
Speaker 1
This feels uncomfortable because no one really did this with me when I was two. But I can learn how to do that because my child is teaching me how like she teaches me how have this, do this, and I just follow her lead. And then over time, it just feels more comfortable because it's not the first time anymore.
00:15:54:04 - 00:16:15:02
Speaker 1
It's the 100th and 50th time that I feel like pulled by my toddler. So, you know, confidence grows by doing. And I also think confidence grows by getting it wrong because you learn something from it. You learn when you make mistakes, you learn when you're like, oh, I should have done it that way. You might learn because you hear a parent do something different or see them do something different.
00:16:15:03 - 00:16:35:10
Speaker 1
You go, oh, I might try that, and you might try it and it might go, well, or you might try it and go, that doesn't fit for me. I'm going to drop it. I think that's how we grow in confidence. Confidence isn't something you feel and you just have. I feel like confidence is something that you do and you build.
00:16:35:11 - 00:16:48:18
Speaker 1
So I always try and help parents understand that getting things wrong and doing it messily is part of parenting. That is what makes you a good parent. You don't give up, you just keep going and you learn from your mistakes.
00:16:48:19 - 00:17:08:17
Speaker 2
That all sounds very familiar. I definitely had lots of mistakes on a daily basis. But also I love that essence of kind of playing and it becoming part of a routine, becoming part of the way that you communicate with your child. My daughter is obsessed with her Care Bears at the moment, and we're constantly moving them around the house and putting them to bed and waking them up and giving them food.
00:17:08:17 - 00:17:29:08
Speaker 2
And again, it's that pattern, isn't it? You see, that really resonates with with she's two and a half as well, and it really resonates with her when you sort of playing game and get on all fours and you're on the floor with her as well. So I love that example, and I was really interested about the sort of the personal anecdote you were saying about how your mum had a different parenting style.
00:17:29:08 - 00:17:57:01
Speaker 2
And so it's evolved into this generation, and obviously we'll continue to evolve potentially. I'm interested, you know, why do you think that's happened? What's changed? Why do you think this generation of parents that perhaps could be seen as being even more busy, you know, how do you think that sort of trajectory has changed so that we have is that because of the information, like people like you are sharing, or are there other factors you think at play?
00:17:57:02 - 00:18:19:05
Speaker 1
So I think we are a more busy generation. I think we do more with our children because we have an awareness that children are people in their own right. I think in a way that older generations did not. I still feel very strongly that we still see children, like many adults, particularly by the time they hit 4 or 5.
00:18:19:05 - 00:18:44:19
Speaker 1
And they're like talking fluently, more fluently, unless starting at little preschool or whatever it is, you know, just before school age, we start to see them like, oh, that they get it. You know, they're like many adults. And then I've got a seven year old as well. And I think by that age, which I call middle childhood, I think we do have that sense of you're very able and very competent and we set very high expectations for our kids.
00:18:44:19 - 00:19:24:05
Speaker 1
But I think we have an awareness now. Over time, it's shifted that children are developmentally different from us. And I think we are aware that play is important. I think, you know, those conversations have been going for a while now, and even in terms of like the first five years of life, I think if you'd said that to a parent of my mom's generation, she'd be like, well, nobody told me, you know, nobody told me that in the first five years of life, there are foundation to brain development and social emotional development, and therefore we need to focus on more kind of unstructured play and, you know, allowing your child to feel their emotions.
00:19:24:05 - 00:19:53:00
Speaker 1
Whatever. I think those things feel very alien to order generations because we didn't have those conversations. The research was there. But like I said before, it was happening behind locked doors. So there's people like me. If I'd been there who probably knew all of this, but we just kept it quiet, like you'd have to pay good money or have really kind of big needs to come and see somebody like me who would have explained all these things to you.
00:19:53:00 - 00:20:17:22
Speaker 1
And often it was children who were neglected or abused, and those were the kids and the families who had those conversations. Now we've kind of opened it up and said, well, everybody should know this because it should be an awareness for childcare settings, for parents, for teachers, you know, for the wider society. I think that's created more pressure on us as parents because suddenly we've realized, oh God, so I can't just let my kid just be.
00:20:18:02 - 00:20:39:19
Speaker 1
I have to interact and be present with them. And I think what I would say is, it's like I say with lots of things, it's a both and like, yes, being present with your child really matters. And that doesn't mean you have to spend like an hour of your day with your little one. It can be minutes, moments.
00:20:39:21 - 00:20:58:19
Speaker 1
It can be on a really busy day. It might just be, which happens to me. It might just be that my little one comes, you know, she's like, mum, come, come. I say to her, and I do say this to her right now. I'm making dinner, my love, so I can't. But you can come with me and stand on the stool, or even sit on the side of the kitchen, which she likes to do.
00:20:58:20 - 00:21:21:17
Speaker 1
And you can help me mix or, you know, wash up, which she loves and creates tons of mess or whatever. But we're interacting while I'm cooking, and that is a form of presence that is me being with my child. But I'm still getting the job done, which is I have to make dinner for you. And you know, I don't have time to just play and build your blocks or put the, you know, the Care Bears to sleep right now.
00:21:21:17 - 00:21:45:18
Speaker 1
And she will do that. And she loves it because it is giving her attention, is giving her value. I also see that as skills building for her. It's great. Builds familiarity with food, lots of great things. But I also know that in that moment I'm thinking I need to get this job done. And I think that's important. As parents, it's okay to acknowledge that sometimes you can't be present and that doesn't make you a bad parent.
00:21:45:18 - 00:22:03:12
Speaker 1
That's totally okay. Your child, your child will not come to harm, as long as there's always a moment where you are able to give yourself that moment of presence with your child. And like I said, it can be a handful of minutes does not have to be a full hour of presence. It can be 5 to 10 minutes and that can be enough.
00:22:03:13 - 00:22:04:09
Speaker 3
And what about.
00:22:04:09 - 00:22:31:06
Speaker 2
The other moments? Maybe at 3:00 in the morning, or when you're being disturbed and disrupted from pattern and routine that you might want, i.e. being in bed asleep? How do you support parents? Or how should parents think about those challenges? When you have a child that comes in in the middle of the night, or a child that you know starts screaming in the middle of the supermarket, I think is the is the example that people often go back to as well.
00:22:31:08 - 00:22:45:17
Speaker 2
What about in those moments that are more challenging? How could you support or what do you think about parents in those scenarios? How can we kind of maintain that calm that you were just describing while cooking dinner together?
00:22:45:18 - 00:23:05:09
Speaker 1
I don't think you can be calm all the time, is what I'm going to say. So it's not about calm. I think we use calm in a way that I think to many parents is really unhelpful. You can't be calm when your kid is kicking off in the shop, okay, like I don't feel calm. So parents are temperamentally, but I'm quite feisty, so I'm not the parent.
00:23:05:09 - 00:23:31:01
Speaker 1
He's feeling super zen if my kid is kicking off in the shop. But I am the parent who stays quiet and uses my behavior to move my child forward. And again, you need to figure out what works for you. So I always say to parents, to anyone who asks, you're responsible for your behavior, not your child's right. Your child is kicking off.
00:23:31:02 - 00:23:53:00
Speaker 1
They're having a big tantrum on the let's say they're lying on the floor. They're properly, you know, like moving their hands. They wanted something and you said, no, I you know, there's lots of choices you can make as a parent. But what I tend to say is think about safety and think about what you can do. Some parents and I have done this, but I also show you a different example that I've also done.
00:23:53:01 - 00:24:16:09
Speaker 1
Some parents will sit on the floor or stay by their child, you know, kneel by them and be like, that's okay, you know, you can kick off. I'm just going to wait, you know, and let them kick off. I have done that. I have sat in a shopping center on the edge with my now seven year old, but she was about two at the time, properly kicking off.
00:24:16:09 - 00:24:35:05
Speaker 1
But I knew that at that moment I could have picked her up. And where we were in this shopping place, there was there was no like Quick Exit. So I knew that I either battled with her, you know, I could shout at her, I could, but it wasn't going to move her along, or I just accepted that she was kicking off and I just had to wait.
00:24:35:05 - 00:24:55:14
Speaker 1
So I just waited. I literally sat and waited and it fizzles out because it always does. And once it fizzled out, we had a cuddle and I moved her out. By moving her out, I mean, we got in the car and we left. Okay? I was like, I'm done. This is she was tired. She was hungry. She had her needs.
00:24:55:14 - 00:25:26:20
Speaker 1
And my need in that moment was to disappear, right. So if you can do that, great. And I think the thing to say about tantrums is you need to find the solution for your moment. It's not the same solution for every moment. So that's one. Two tantrums are mentally healthy and normal. They are not. They are not something that you should judge your parenting on.
00:25:26:22 - 00:25:49:05
Speaker 1
Your child's kicking off doesn't mean you're a bad parent. Okay, I don't judge parents because they kids have a tantrum. I might judge parents on how they shout at their child or scream at their child. Or in one instance, I have seen a parent slap a child in the middle of a shopping supermarket, and I will judge that because that is not okay to me.
00:25:49:06 - 00:26:15:09
Speaker 1
Like that is never okay to harm your child just because they're doing something that you struggle to tolerate. But you know, our job as parents is not to control our kids or their emotions. It's to guide them. It's to like, help them, channel them because no emotion is bad. So in those moments when they're screaming and crying and you know, and you're feeling so embarrassed, I want you to remember this is about you.
00:26:15:14 - 00:26:39:07
Speaker 1
Like, none of it is about you. I'm sure you're an excellent parent, and I'm one of those people walking past giving you a warm smile. Which is the other thing I also say to parents look up, stop looking down or closing your eyes, going, oh my God, everybody's judging me. Look up, look at your child and say something like, this behavior is about them struggling.
00:26:39:07 - 00:27:03:11
Speaker 1
It's not a measure of my parenting. And then look around and you will find a kind gaze, because you will. Because there's always another parent looking at you going, I see you. Yeah, my kid does that to my kid that yesterday I was in aisle three and it happened to me like we are. And yeah, every now and again someone will say, and then somebody walks past and they like tutting at me.
00:27:03:13 - 00:27:22:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, but you have no control over those people that are going to judge you. They're going to judge you no matter what. So you need to be able to go that person, you know, it washes over me because I'm not in relationship with them. I don't care what you think about me. What you think is not important. What I do with my child matters because I'm in relationship with them.
00:27:22:18 - 00:27:49:01
Speaker 1
And that kind parent who smiled at me like, I'm sure you'd be one of those parents judge who like smiles. He goes, yep, I know charade is so comforting. I've had that before. I've had a parents smile at me and me think, oh my God, you get it? Okay, I'm not alone in this. And it's that sense of validation, like quiet validation that can often help you breathe and go, okay, come on, I'm going to get through this.
00:27:49:01 - 00:28:02:01
Speaker 1
So yeah, those are the things that I would say about those really challenging moments. They happen to all of us and there is no right or wrong way really. It's about how you move through as best you can. Survival mode.
00:28:02:03 - 00:28:21:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's good advice. And I think all too often. Yeah, you've got two options haven't you? Either go to their level and you get as frustrated and as upset or as you say, you have to try and defuze the situation and try and figure out a way that's going to calm everyone down. And if you can find an escape route, then great.
00:28:21:17 - 00:28:44:13
Speaker 2
If not, then it's waiting it out patiently and waiting for that. I guess the other thing that we hear a lot about, and you know, I had myself sort of the arrival of younger siblings and the challenges that that poses around some of the behavior that you see as a parent as well. The struggle to know my toddler now has to confront a world where he's got a younger sister.
00:28:44:13 - 00:29:13:02
Speaker 2
And so the relationship that we have has evolved. It's changed because there are now other competing factors for attention and all of those sorts of struggles that people that have multiple children will probably be familiar with. How do you help guide those scenarios? What is your advice there, having gone through it yourself? I don't know if there's any personal anecdotes or from the science that you're you're familiar with.
00:29:13:04 - 00:29:42:05
Speaker 1
So both, both and I can share some kind of tools and tips that are both from science and personally, things that I did. I guess the first thing I would say always is that if you are able to bring a sibling into your family life like another child, that is always a gift. So please stop seeing this like I am doing something that my child is going to miss out on.
00:29:42:06 - 00:30:04:24
Speaker 1
Yes, your child is now going to have to share their home, their toys, their space, their time with you. But that doesn't mean that the sharing your love, okay, your love does not get split into because you have two kids or 3 or 4 or whatever you have. Your love is the same. You actually have a different kind of love for every single child.
00:30:05:00 - 00:30:35:23
Speaker 1
And like that is 100% true for me. Like the love I have for my eldest is completely different in quality and relationship and how we are together. To my second, it is not less than or more than. It is just completely different because there are two different people and I have two different relationships with them. And the way I always think about it is as an adult, think about your close friends like a few friends that you love a lot and you're really close to you.
00:30:36:00 - 00:30:58:00
Speaker 1
It's very likely that if I asked you to grade them in preference, you'd really struggle because there's times where you'd be like, but I prefer spending time going out with that one. But then if I'm going to watch a film, I like that one because we're into the same stuff. Whatever it is, your relationship is different. But the love, like the quality of that relationship doesn't have to be.
00:30:58:02 - 00:31:20:24
Speaker 1
And that's what happens with children. So firstly, your love isn't halved. Secondly, you are giving your child a gift, a gift of a relationship that is so unique. It is not like the relationship they have with you. It never will be. It is not like the relationship they have with friends or cousins or anyone like that. It never will be.
00:31:21:01 - 00:31:53:02
Speaker 1
A sibling relationship is really unique because siblings grow up in the same environment, often with the same set of parents. You know, if they're living in the same home, but their experiences are often completely different. But what they share is the ability to understand each other if you allow it. And I'm saying if you allow it because I think as parents, again, we have this really important role, which isn't to make our children love each other, but is to make our children respect each other and care for each other, which is different.
00:31:53:02 - 00:32:14:12
Speaker 1
I think love happens over time. You need to let that be. But over time, that kind of sibling relationship grows and it's a beautiful gift you give a kid. I think thirdly, you need to accept, especially when you have a new baby in your house, that your family rhythm is different. That's not a bad thing. It just it has to be that way.
00:32:14:12 - 00:32:34:08
Speaker 1
In order for you to care for a baby, your entire rhythm is going to change. And I always think of it as chapters. This isn't forever. It's just a season, right? It's a season of there's another newborn baby, and now your toddler has to live with something a different experience in your house, and you can make that beautiful for them too.
00:32:34:09 - 00:33:00:03
Speaker 1
So in my house, one of the beautiful things that happened was that my daughter got closer to her dad. I've always been the preferred parent for my eldest, I still am. I think I always will be forever. And that's a gift, you know, it's a privilege to be her preferred parent. It's also really exhausting. And when the baby came along, she had to spend more time with her dad because there were things that I couldn't do, like her bedtimes.
00:33:00:03 - 00:33:21:11
Speaker 1
I had to be with baby, nursing baby, doing whatever it was, and so daddy had to read her more of the stories. I still read her stories, but he often did the tucking in, the being by her bedside, and they now have a really beautiful relationship that I'm not sure would be exactly the same if those experiences hadn't happened.
00:33:21:13 - 00:33:47:15
Speaker 1
So I think you need to see the evolution of your family as you know, the things that change and adapt. They're not necessarily bad, they're just parts of the evolution of your family life. And in order to like, move through it, I think you have to have a degree of acceptance. Things are going to change, but it's not necessarily bad to you need to trust the relationship you have with your child.
00:33:47:15 - 00:34:07:03
Speaker 1
Trust yourself and your child to keep having that bond and protect it in little pockets. So when the baby's asleep, you do something lovely together when you can at the weekend, you know, you say to your partner, you have the baby. I need to spend time with our eldest child. You know, pockets of time will keep that relationship alive.
00:34:07:03 - 00:34:30:19
Speaker 1
It will stay alive no matter what you do, because your kid will hold you like kids do, that they hold you, like, in a little box, and they're like, I'm waiting. I'm waiting for you to come back to me and you will come back. So trust yourself because it comes back and then it's beautiful. And I think thirdly, which is a big tip, never use the baby as an excuse.
00:34:30:21 - 00:34:50:09
Speaker 1
Never put blame on the baby. You know, I can't play because the baby needs a feed. That might be true, but try and keep it neutral. So instead it might sound like, yes, I really want to play with you. Let me just finish this first. Do you want to set up or why don't you come and set up here by the dining table?
00:34:50:10 - 00:35:10:03
Speaker 1
Because I just need to finish doing this. Whatever it is, I just need to finish preparing food. And I wouldn't mention, baby. I would try and keep it really useful. I need to just get the food going and then you and I can play. So try and keep things really neutral. If you need quiet time, instead of saying the baby's asleep, you need to be really quiet.
00:35:10:09 - 00:35:35:20
Speaker 1
Turn it into doing something quiet with your child's like, hey, do you want to read a nice story together? Come and sit next to me. Let's read. So you try to stay quiet, but you're not saying you have to because of the baby. You're saying I want to do this quiet activity with you, which is going to help your child feel connected, seal, and more likely to stay quiet, which is what you want.
00:35:35:22 - 00:35:52:19
Speaker 1
So really try. That would be my biggest tip when they're really little. And secondly, it's a long exercise so I don't have to describe it here. But I did do a little video about it. There's a really lovely way of showing your child that your love doesn't get halved. That can really help when they have a sibling. And I use candles for this.
00:35:52:20 - 00:36:11:04
Speaker 1
Pick a candle. Pick a brand new set of candles. It's really important they're all the same size. Light one and say this one is me and put it in a cupcake if you like, because then you can share the cupcake and say, this one is me, and the flame is the love that I have in my heart. And one day I met your partner.
00:36:11:04 - 00:36:28:17
Speaker 1
Whoever it is, daddy, mummy, whoever. Like the candle. Put it back in the cupcake and say, look, can you see the flame is the same? My love didn't shrink just because I met your daddy or your mummy. My love said the same. I just had somebody else to love. And then you say pick a candle because that one is you.
00:36:28:17 - 00:36:48:23
Speaker 1
That's your candle. Let's light it with my love. Look, it's the same size and really talk about the size of your love. It's the same now. I fell in love with you because you were born into our family, and now there's going to be a baby. So let's imagine which candle is going to be baby. This one. Look at the flames and they will all be the same.
00:36:48:23 - 00:37:11:09
Speaker 1
And that's a really lovely, concrete way of showing a little one who doesn't understand what love means, because love is abstract, a little ones that actually the strength of your love stays the same. No matter how many people come into your family, it just grows. There's more flame, there's more love, but they're not getting smaller just because there's more.
00:37:11:09 - 00:37:20:19
Speaker 1
And that can really help your child sit with the fact that you love them. But just because you're spending more time with a baby that's not shrinking.
00:37:20:21 - 00:37:46:16
Speaker 2
I think that's really important message and a really nice way of conveying it. I love that example, and I guess I also really enjoyed the sort of way you described parenting as chapters and the sort of the story of old and growing. And I guess to go back to the very beginning, those first thousand days that we talk about are often conveyed to parents pretty terrifying moment as opposed to being empowering.
00:37:46:18 - 00:38:12:13
Speaker 2
So I guess my question for you, Martha, is around how deterministic is that early period and those crucial early moments? Yes, there's neuroscience, there's brain development. But what does the evidence say? Or what does your experience say in terms of what parents can do in those first thousand days, but also how things can be course corrected? If it wasn't the hallmark picture perfect moment that you were expecting.
00:38:12:15 - 00:38:45:04
Speaker 1
So our brain is neuroplasticity, and particularly in early childhood brains are the way I think about neuroplasticity is they're constantly evolving, changing, growing, adapting. And I think humans would not have survived if we didn't have the ability to move through difficult moments, even trauma, and still be okay. Right. And, you know, there's trauma with a big T and trauma with a little T, and I think people don't really understand that trauma actually is part of all of us.
00:38:45:04 - 00:39:18:11
Speaker 1
We've all experienced some form of trauma and we can all move through that. And of course, for some people, you know, if you have chronic abuse, that's going to really affect the brain, right. So obviously there's nuance to this. If you are a parent and I see lots of parents like this who ends up having post depression, who's really struggled to be with your little one, connected to understand their crimes, to do all of that, I want you to know that looking after yourself is more important.
00:39:18:13 - 00:39:40:16
Speaker 1
As long as baby is safe with another adult who loves and cares them and is able to give them the things that in this moment you cannot, they're going to be okay. Like there are absolutely going to be okay. And when you are better, you feel stronger. You know, you've moved through things, you've developed some coping tools. Hopefully you've received the support you need.
00:39:40:19 - 00:40:06:16
Speaker 1
You can go back to that baby, that child and have a relationship and it's not too late. And by not too late, I mean never. It's leather. Too late. I mean, I know adults who have parents that have repaired parts of their relationship, parts of their childhoods, and grown stronger in their bonds. And some of those parents I know some of these people like personally in my extended friendship group.
00:40:06:16 - 00:40:27:12
Speaker 1
I know some of them because they've come to my clinic room. And one of the things I've definitely learned from that is that it's never too late to build the kind of parent child relationship that you want. It's you always have that possibility. I think the responsibility often does lie with us, the parents, because we're the ones who are responsible for bringing children to the world.
00:40:27:12 - 00:40:54:10
Speaker 1
But in those like 1000 days, what I would say is, God, your relationship with your child is so little like its infancy. Don't hold on to anything too tightly. You could repair, you can change, you can learn, you can grow, you can build a different relationship with them. Nothing is lost like nothing. There is no such thing as everything's been determined in the first five years.
00:40:54:10 - 00:41:23:05
Speaker 1
So if you mess up, it's over. Absolutely. That's just not what we know. What we know is that those first five years are really important. So when we can, it's more like the language I would use when we can hold that as important. And building a strong foundation that is child ledge, you know, developmentally appropriate for children will put children in a good position.
00:41:23:06 - 00:41:48:21
Speaker 1
But that doesn't mean that anyone who messes up or can't do things or, like I said, has posted it, or depression or there's a you know, I work with so many families were big things happen in those five years, like, you know, gargantuan things like illness, you know, some, you know, a parent dies. Lockdown. Lockdown is one of those gargantuan things that happened to lots of families.
00:41:48:24 - 00:42:08:05
Speaker 1
That doesn't mean that your child is harmed for life. It is definitely not the end. So, you know, thinking, just being aware of what has happened to your child and the things that you can do can be really helpful. But it's never, ever too late. No matter how old your child is.
00:42:08:06 - 00:42:36:02
Speaker 2
That's really, really important message and hopefully helps those that are listening that may have those sorts of challenges they're facing. I'd love to pivot and sort of think about from a societal perspective, but also from a policy perspective. So we've spoken a little bit about the rise of kind of postnatal isolation and the challenges that moms, dads are facing in the world that we live in, growing up with young children.
00:42:36:04 - 00:43:05:02
Speaker 2
What do you think we can do from a policy perspective? What would you expect from a sort of structural perspective that needs to break down some of the stigma that you were sort of describing around parents asking for help? A little bit of the access to resources that we know that families need. I guess if you had a magic wand or, you know, a line item in the next budget, what would you be pushing for, advocating for from a sort of system perspective?
00:43:05:04 - 00:43:07:14
Speaker 4
Oh, wow.
00:43:07:16 - 00:43:39:16
Speaker 1
I it's a huge question. I think for me, I would value parenting like one of the most important jobs that I'm going to say it, mothers do in our society. And of course parent, you know, dads parent to 100%, especially in my generation. But let's be honest, it tends to be the mothers who carry the biggest load. And if I had like a magic, you said a magic wand, so I'm going to go wild.
00:43:39:16 - 00:44:06:14
Speaker 1
But if I had a magic wand and I could do whatever I wanted, I would say I would financially value the work that mothers do every day. Because I actually do believe that parenting is the most valuable job that we can do in our society. We know that if we don't have and we don't parent them well, the future of our society suffers.
00:44:06:14 - 00:44:37:18
Speaker 1
It's a fact. The only thing that makes a society run isn't money. It's us. It's people. And investing in children, in babies and little ones, you know, in in teenagers investing in their well-being, in supporting their growth, their learning, their skills is what makes a better society. And, you know, the skills that I feel are. Oh, you know, I can't I don't even know what word to use.
00:44:37:18 - 00:45:15:06
Speaker 1
But, you know, the skills that I feel like our children need against everything, particularly in this digitalized society that we live in right now with AI and tech and everything else, our skills of empathy, emotional regulation, critical thinking, you know, good, excellent social skills, curiosity, creativity, imagination. Because those are the things I can't do, right? I don't know what's going to happen in the future with work and careers and, you know, the future of my children.
00:45:15:07 - 00:45:45:05
Speaker 1
I have no idea what that looks like to me. It feels a bit overwhelming to think about it, but I know not just as a psychologist, as a human, that these are the skills that my girls lead in order to thrive. Right? And those skills are not built without loving adults around children. And that doesn't mean it always has to be the parent, because, again, we have lots of science, and I and I do not like the narrative that it has to be the mum that stays at home.
00:45:45:05 - 00:46:04:12
Speaker 1
No, it has to be a loving adult. But right now in our society, we're not supporting parents to be with their children in a way that makes sense. I also don't think we're supporting childcare to meet children's needs in a way that's developmentally appropriate, and it doesn't fit with parents. Lot of parents work just to pay for childcare.
00:46:04:13 - 00:46:29:01
Speaker 1
I mean, that makes no sense to me. Like that's wild. But I think we live in a society that doesn't prioritize parenting, that doesn't see the financial value that mothers and parents put into our society were not removed. Oh my God, I can't say the word. We're not removed. Oh my God, I can't say it compensated. Thank you.
00:46:29:05 - 00:46:52:08
Speaker 1
We're not compensated for the work we do. In fact, it's so invisible that I think we forget that it actually really matters. And, you know, if I could wave my magic wand, I would say you need to compensate parents financially for the work they put in. You need to make childcare accessible and you need to make it, you know, definitely appropriate.
00:46:52:08 - 00:47:24:14
Speaker 1
And you need to make it affordable because it is not affordable. And we need to gear and shape the curriculum, the educational setting for today's world, not for 50 years ago, because our kids are living here right now. And, you know, rather than teaching multiplication times tables by rote, which I feel like nobody needs to do that anymore, you might need to understand mathematical concepts where you don't need to know that because you've got computers now and they do all of that.
00:47:24:15 - 00:47:39:00
Speaker 1
We should be focusing more on those skills. I talked about empathy, critical skill thinking, you know, learning how to socially relate with each other, teaching children how to be creative and imaginative because those are not things that computers can just do.
00:47:39:02 - 00:47:59:21
Speaker 2
I love that, and how we've sort of evolved over the course of this conversation, from the science and the kind of the development and the brain through to the economics and how actually investment in these early years, the return on that investment that we can make, not just in terms of mums and dads and families right now, and improving their mental wellbeing and improving how they can interact with each other.
00:47:59:21 - 00:48:22:21
Speaker 2
But the long term impact of that investment, how over a child's life that will improve outcomes, educational, health, everything else, all of that early intervention can have a huge, huge impact. I guess we've spoken a lot about the challenges. I guess my final question would be what gives you hope? What gives you the most hope for the world that we live in?
00:48:22:21 - 00:48:28:08
Speaker 2
And when you see parents and children at the moment.
00:48:28:10 - 00:48:52:02
Speaker 1
Oh my God, I think parents and their children give me hope, like every day. Like, I mean, I work with kids, I work with teenagers and I work with their parents. But all I ever see when I look at children and teenagers is that they are amazing. Like, I have this real sense of wonder around children, and I spend a lot of time with them, and I spend a lot of time with kids who are really struggling.
00:48:52:02 - 00:49:13:23
Speaker 1
But I still have that sense of wonder. I think they're the ones that give me hope for the future and their parents, because every single parent I know meet, interact with, cares deeply about their children like I, you know, I don't believe there is such a thing as a bad parent. Yes, of course there are parents who are abusive and they're a different category.
00:49:13:23 - 00:49:35:08
Speaker 1
But most parents are absolutely doing their best, and they care so deeply about the way they're bringing up with their children to the point of, you know, saying things like, oh my God, I said this to my child will harm them. And I'm like, no, of course not. Like, of course not. Because the fact that you're questioning it tells me you're a really good parent.
00:49:35:08 - 00:50:02:06
Speaker 1
I think if you're questioning yourself, if you are reading about things, if you're thinking, oh my God, am I getting it right? Honestly, you probably are doing way more than you need to. You're doing well enough, and I know that for sure without even knowing you, because I think being a good parent means that you often do question yourself like that is, you know, the parents who question themselves, they're doing it right.
00:50:02:07 - 00:50:22:23
Speaker 1
I think the parents who and there are so few of them, you know, but I think it is more about the parent who says something awful to their child and goes, I don't care. You know, the parent is like, I don't want to play with you. Stop asking me to play it. You know, you're such a nuisance. And they go to bed and they're like, well, they are a nuisance, so why should I apologize?
00:50:22:24 - 00:50:45:11
Speaker 1
That's what I would worry about, right? Those are the parents and they're so few and far between. But they're the parents I'd worry about. If you can't apologize, if you think your child is a nuisance and you don't care about that, you know, all these things are like emotional neglect, right? Most parents are not like that. Most parents are like, oh my God, I said, stop crying.
00:50:45:12 - 00:51:03:00
Speaker 1
And now I've like, you know, blocked their tears for life. I'm like, no, you have it. You're just a normal parent. In a moment of stress. It doesn't make you bad. Give your kid a cuddle and say, I love you. I'm sorry you were really upset before and you know I told you to stop crying. It's okay if you cry.
00:51:03:01 - 00:51:29:05
Speaker 1
Tears are okay. Like if that's you, you're doing an excellent job. So I think parents and their children give me hope. Because I feel like I've never met such a caring group of parents. Like this generation is credibly thoughtful, incredibly caring. I know we're trying to parent differently, not repeat mistakes, but I also think we're doing well enough.
00:51:29:05 - 00:51:48:18
Speaker 1
And I often think you're okay, like I'm okay. And my you know, I talked before, my mom didn't play with me. I'm okay, I play, I try and be as playful as I can. We're okay. Our kids are going to be better than us. And that's the way it should be. Like every generation. Should come with its own little improvement.
00:51:48:18 - 00:51:59:04
Speaker 1
And I feel like, yeah, that's that's my hope. I have hope because I believe parents and their kids are doing a wonderful job already.
00:51:59:06 - 00:52:20:05
Speaker 2
What a wonderful way to close the conversation. Doctor Martha, thank you so much for your time. It's been brilliant speaking with you today and all of the advice, all of the anecdotes that you were sharing will be so valued by our community of parents, as well as early as practitioners and professionals, as well as policymakers that listen in to the podcast.
00:52:20:05 - 00:52:45:08
Speaker 2
So really, we greatly appreciate your time with us today and sharing all of your insights and expertise. Martha. Thank you. That conversation was exactly what this podcast exists for. The thing that sticks with me is we spend so much time trying to manage what children do. What we're being asked is actually to do something harder and more important to understand what children need.
00:52:45:09 - 00:53:09:07
Speaker 2
And to do that, we have to be willing to look at ourselves first. That's not easy, but it is possible, and it's definitely worth it. If this episode resonated. Please share it with another parent or carer who might need to hear it. Subscribe to Best Beginnings wherever you listen and find out more about Baby Zone in the free earlier support we offer at Baby Zone.
00:53:09:09 - 00:53:11:21
Speaker 2
Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.