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Pull up a seat at our table, where badass women from all walks of life—fashion, beauty, design, music, philanthropy, art, and more—come together to share honest stories, serve truths, and dig into the realities of modern womanhood.
Johanna Almstea...: Hi, everyone. I am menu planning for my next guests, plural. I have two coming tonight, so I'm super excited to get to know them better, to hear more about their story, and for you guys to learn all about them. I don't know them as well, and so I'm going to do something kind of easy and simple. I think I'm going to start with some lovely bruschetta, couple different little bruschettas. I'm going to do a tomato bruschetta, and then I'm also going to do a little marinated artichoke bruschetta. So you're going to toast the bread, drizzle a little olive oil on it, take a nice big Italian bread or big baguette, slice it, then toast it. Sorry, I should give better instructions. Then you're just going to brush a little olive oil on it. And for the tomato, you're going to chop tomatoes really nicely with some basil, olive oil, salt and pepper, and you're just going to top that onto the bread and it's going to soak it up all really nicely.
And then with the artichoke hearts, you just get nice marinated artichoke hearts, you can chop those up, and then spread them. Sometimes you can do a little ricotta underneath and just a little bit of fresh herbs on top. I'm going to start pretty simple there. And to drink, I think I'm going to drink a Vermentino, but I don't know what they like to drink, so I think I'm going to just have an open bar. I'm going to say, "Hey, guys, what can I make you?" I love making cocktails and I pretty much have everything here to make cocktails, so I'm just going to have everything on hand because I don't know exactly what they like to drink, and I really like to make sure that people get to drink what they want to drink.
And then I'm going to go a little cozy old school. I'm going to make a lasagna. For me, it's easy to make this ahead of time. I can just pop it into the oven when they're coming. I really want to take the time to get to know them and talk more about everything that they're working on, which is so cool. I'm going to do an old school bolognese lasagna, and I'm just going to serve that with a really simple romaine salad, some nice fresh herbs, maybe little tomatoes, cucumbers in that salad. I'm going to do a little balsamic vinaigrette on that and some crusty bread and good olive oil for dipping. I'm going to open up some Barolo, because I love a big red wine with some lasagna. And for vibes, I've been really into Olivia Dean lately, maybe some Arlo Parks. I'm just going to keep the mood nice, light, cozy and fun. I think these ladies could be pretty fun. I'm super inspired by what they're doing. I hope you guys are too and I can't wait for you to hear more of their story, so let's dig in.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Eat My Words. I am really looking forward to this conversation today for so many reasons. I have two guests today, which always makes it fun, who are building something that I think is pretty revolutionary. They both come from the world of marketing, having built very successful careers as leaders in their fields. One has worked for great brands like Real Simple, Flywheel, and American Express, where she met the other, who is the VP of Global Digital Partners, and was responsible for American Express's first tweet ever, which I need to know more about. They are both founders, mothers, and this part is important, they are divorcees. They are the co-founders of My Next Chapter, an expert-led and innovative content and community platform offering resources and support for people going through every stage of divorce. Tamara Frankfort Odinec and Shari Joseph, welcome to Eat My Words.
Shari Joseph: Thank you.
Tamara Frankfor...: Thank you.
Shari Joseph: Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for taking time out of what I know are very, very busy lives. Nothing like building a rocket and just flying it all at the same time, I'm sure.
Tamara Frankfor...: Literally.
Shari Joseph: So we were introduced by your publicist, Amanda, and while on most days I am not necessarily looking to get divorced, I was really intrigued and impressed when I heard about My Next Chapter and all that you guys are building. As a daughter of divorced parents and as a friend to several people who've gone through the process, I really love that you're turning what I'm sure was probably a painful thing in your lives into something that can help other people. I think that for me feels so important. We talk about this on this podcast, a lot of turning pain into purpose and turning challenges into something fruitful. I would love if you guys can just start with how the journey of My Next Chapter began. How did you guys have this idea? How did you meet? How did this all begin?
Tamara Frankfor...: We love that question. It's a great first question. So you talk about turning pain into purpose and just the desire to help people. For me, and of course, mentioned both our professional and personal backgrounds, my ex and I decided to get divorced five years ago, and I was the first in my friend group among anybody really, who I knew well, who was even contemplating it. It was a really scary and lonely time. It was right after COVID had started and I just felt completely isolated. I remember looking online trying to find resources, getting to random attorney websites, going down black holes on Reddit, and trying to just connect with anybody who could relate to me and there was nothing there. Eventually I had my therapist help me, found an attorney, and got through it ultimately, but it would've been so much better had I had something.
Fast-forward four years and I am happily in My Next Chapter and started getting all these inquiries from people, like, "Can you help so-and-so? This person's thinking about divorce." And I was like, "Wait a minute, does this really still not exist? Let me look." And started doing some digging and as someone had worked in marketing and tech for years, I was always interested in this type of product and content, and really saw there was nothing like it out there. And so that's where the idea of My Next Chapter, a platform and community to help people navigating divorce was born, just sort of. I started putting pen to paper and I really liked the idea of doing something that was expert led, because there were a lot of divorces out there talking about their own experiences, which is super helpful. But the idea of bringing experts in legal, finance, and all these areas in to weigh in as well, not only with their personal experiences, but real professional background, was just something novel. To bring it all together with content and community was something that was exciting and didn't exist.
That's right around the time that I met Shari, who was thinking about a very similar concept. Shari and I knew of each other at Amex, but we were actually connected more recently through a mutual friend, and I'll let Shari jump in with our kind of first meeting and where she was.
Shari Joseph: Yeah, that mutual friend was like, "You have to meet Tamara and you should know each other. Why don't you know each other? You both worked together at Amex and going through divorce." Tamara and I say we're yin and yang based on our divorce experiences. I represent the more high conflict side. Unfortunately, Tamara, bit more amicable, but I also was just feeling like there wasn't that resource available to me. Did a lot of looking around and stumbled across different podcasts and different groups, but nothing in this way that provided the support, the resources, tools, template, and community. All of our experts are personally touched by divorce in some way, either as a child of divorce like you or divorce themselves. Their professional perspective, their personal perspective, our experiences was just so helpful. I am still navigating the divorce journey. The divorce journey is long. And when you're-
Johanna Almstea...: Why is it so long?
Shari Joseph: ... coparenting, oh, my goodness.
Johanna Almstea...: Why is it so long? I don't understand because I have not gone through it, like you said.
Shari Joseph: It's long.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Shari Joseph: And when you're, even once the divorce papers are signed, you're still in that journey, which is why it was really important for us to think about all phases of that journey to help people that are divorce curious, so to speak. They feel like they... "Should I stay? Should I go? What does that entail? I need to look at it from the legal, the finance perspective, need mental health expertise along the way," as it is a very trying time. Those that are in the journey like me, where the legal process just takes a while, especially in high conflict. And then there's that post the divorce papers and those that are in their next chapter, those that have kids are still navigating the ins and outs of kids at different ages and what may come their way.
Dating, we have a style expert. Even thinking about ways that you could refresh your home, feel good about yourself with little simple things that you do. So I'm... Been so fortunate to be building My Next Chapter with Tamara while going really through it, through the wringer. I have stories for you that you'll hear today, but it's been my therapy, it's been my survival.
Tamara Frankfor...: I just remember Shari and I, our first meeting, as Shari said, we're yin and yang, my situation was more amicable fortunately, although it doesn't come without challenges. Shari's in more high conflict. I was in my post-divorce life. She was in the beginning and our kids are different ages, so we brought a lot of different perspectives to it. And just the two of us collaborating on that initial sort of business plan and idea around the platform was really invigorating. And then we brought in our mental health expert, Mariana, who really helped us evolve what we had and what we were covering, and brought in our other experts that helped round everything out. We took a year to really produce it. We have all proprietary videos and articles, and we wanted the content to be something that you just can't search for that had clinical examples, real life stories that was real. We were able to put it up in this really compelling platform online. Now the community has come and it's just exciting for us to have it out there.
Johanna Almstea...: I was hyping you guys up on the sidelines of a lacrosse tournament this weekend, because I was talking to two new friends that I had met, they're moms of people on my daughter's team. Both divorced, one kind of been there, done that. She's like, it's been a long time. Parents her kids by herself. The father has moved away, whatever. She's sort of the expert of that time. And then a newly just recently divorced person, and she was asking... I don't know if it was just because I was researching you guys and preparing for this, but they both started talking to me about this very quickly. And I was like, "Oh, well, I happen to..." So a couple of things came up with them and I was like, "Oh, my God, I have to remember to talk to these guys about it."
So the first thing was this idea of experts, because she had questions about the fact that there were certain things in her case that she had signed and then that they were being reopened. I said, "Well, can you talk to your lawyer about it?" And she was like, "Well, my lawyer's 85 years old. I'm afraid he's going to drop dead and they're not going to [inaudible 00:11:13]." And I was like, "Oh, my God. I'm about to interview these women who have started this platform. You need to go, you need to get on it. You need to ask them questions. I'm sure there's someone on there that can tell you what you can do or what does it mean to change your lawyer at this point in it or whatever." So I thought that was really interesting.
And this idea that you can go to a place that's not calling a lawyer's office for $500 an hour to maybe at least find a carrot to a rabbit hole that you can go down, of getting the information you need. She was like, "I thought I was done. I signed the papers. I renovated the house. I was ready to be done with this, and now he's reopening all these things in our case that I didn't realize could be reopened." And so I thought that was really interesting.
And then the other thing that just came up, which was actually the same woman, and this is something I'd love to talk to you about, because you just mentioned the lifestyle part of it, the dating part of it, the refreshing your home, and whatever. She was saying to me, "You work in fashion, what would you wear to a holiday party?" And I was like, "I don't know, a cocktail party?" "And she's like, "Yeah." And I said, "I don't know, maybe a cute little dress with boots or maybe a trouser and a sparkly top. I don't know." And she was like, "Okay." And I was like, "What?" And she said, "I'm nervous. This is my first holiday season that I'm ever going out as a single person, as a divorced, and I'm going into a community that most people are married."
And I was like, "Okay." And she's like, "So I don't want to show up sexy." And I was like, "Wait, what?" I was like, "Wait, what do you mean?" And she's like, "Yeah." She's like, "Well, one of my friends who's divorced told me, you have to be careful because women are going to think you're there to go after their husbands." And I was like, "What? What do you mean?" I'm like, "They're your friends." And she's like, "Yeah." She's like, "But I didn't know this was part of divorce. I didn't think about this, that all of a sudden once I'm divorced, I have this different image that people are going to have in my head." So anyway, we talked through the wardrobe stuff, but this is something I would love to talk about, because is there really that stigma still around divorced women? What is the narrative around divorce now? And are you guys changing that narrative? Because it feels like you are.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, we spend a lot of time, and that was part of one of the impetuses for creating this, and I think one of the reasons why I felt so alone and Shari did. There definitely is still a stigma that divorce is being a sign of failure.
Johanna Almstea...: Which is so crazy. This is so crazy to me. I'm sorry to interrupt, but it just makes me so mad. Okay.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yes. And that you should only get divorced as the last resort. There's still sort of that traditional view that people have this fairytale version of marriage and that's what people are destined to be as a man and a woman or in whatever couple form you're in to be together. And yeah, we say constantly that divorce is a really brave choice. If you're in a relationship where you know that the only way you can truly be happy is to be divorced, it's a really bold, courageous decision. A lot of people are in higher conflict or more abusive relationships or situations, and the only way to be safe, of course, but then to be happy ultimately is to get divorced. That's huge. I think that there's definitely been a shift. There was a change in the 70s and 80s with the no-fault divorce laws.
And then more recently, there's been an increase in women and men later in life, they're calling it gray divorce, who are making the decision to change their life. They're living longer, they have more resources. So there's definitely been a shift and people are seeing it less that way, but it definitely still exists, especially in some of the younger demos, 40s, 50s, in these natural areas where a lot of people are in these couples and there are a lot of married couples and yeah, well, sort of looks a certain way at women in particular who are divorced. There's different stigma for women and men, I think.
Johanna Almstea...: Of course there are, because that's right.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, but that narrative is changing and I think we're helping it. I think a lot of others who are talking about it are.
Johanna Almstea...: Feels like divorce needs a rebrand.
Tamara Frankfor...: Exactly, yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: And it feels like you guys are at the forefront of that. I love that.
Shari Joseph: Thank you. We have a lot of live virtual events where some of these topics come up to try to change the conversation. We think of it as a chance to redefine relationships. Many of my single friends, those who have never been married, widowed, really relate to our content too because it just gives you a fresh perspective of putting yourself first. What does that mean? Those people that you may be nervous about at a cocktail party, well, maybe there's something else to think about, that type of friendship and that dynamic.
Johanna Almstea...: I know. I was like, "I don't think you have the right friends," you can clearly [inaudible 00:15:52] that.
Shari Joseph: Are those the people you want to be around? But there is a dynamic shift and it's also just having the resources and support, especially the mental health support, not to take some of that personally too. Maybe they're insecure in their own marriage and are worried about... And whether you were in the picture as a newly single woman or not, if somebody is going to give somebody trouble, that's probably why. But just even knowing what you can control and focusing what you can control, that's a lot of it. Whatever we can do, a lot of this type of conversation that comes up in our community as well, members sharing their experiences and trying to help one another realize that they're not alone in feeling that way. And then how to move forward and look for those glimmers. I have these friendships now that I never would've had before divorce. They're so much more powerful. I even think about the aspects of helping me in the business world too, of just how I'm redefining relationships, not just even personally or when I look for the next partner.
Tamara Frankfor...: And as Shari said, I think people come at it with their own perspectives and their own struggles. And that was hard for me early on, especially being alone, not having this community that we have here. I found myself like some people, where I would say, "I'm divorced," and there would be some shame around it. People would look at me critically and I'd feel like I'd have to explain myself, like, "Why did I get divorced?" Now I've totally shifted how I think and how I approach it. We're trying to help people do that on My Next Chapter. You don't owe anyone anything. It's your narrative. It's your story. Now when someone says to me, "Oh, you got divorced," and they'll look at me in this sad way, I'm like, "Yeah, and I'm happy." And I just turn around and walk away. I don't give them an explanation. I'm like, "Ah, sorry."
And I've also seen people who are really critical. Most of my friends were super supportive, but I did have a few that weren't initially. It's interesting how it's come full circle. There was one situation in particular where the couple was really having a lot of their own challenges, which I found out later and I didn't know. They came back and apologized for just the way that they treated me. I think I have just such perspective on it now, and I wish that I had known then. I anguished a lot about that and made it about myself when it wasn't, so a lot of learnings.
Johanna Almstea...: Why do you think that is? When my parents got divorced, my mom was so ashamed. She felt like such a failure and I was like, "He wasn't a nice person to be married to." Why is there this... Particularly around women. I don't see anybody saying this to men. Maybe you guys do. Again, I'm not in that community, but are they saying to men, "You failed. You really fucked that one up"? I don't think they, are they?
Tamara Frankfor...: I think it's less so. We actually did a study at My Next Chapter, which was really interesting, where we probed in the general population around how people's perception of divorce and whether it was a sign of failure or not. And actually more men viewed it as a sign of failure than women, because I think men, once they're married, they wind up staying in this relationship and growing dependent on their partner in a way that maybe women don't and their identity becomes about their partner. I think that's why with gray divorce, a lot more women are initiating it than men, and actually over 70% of divorces are initiated by women. So it's a bit of a mix. I think that speaks to more of men, culture, relationships, how they're viewed, and maybe less around divorce.
Johanna Almstea...: So interesting to me. Okay. So you both already had started businesses before this. You both were founders of your own businesses before and you both went through divorce, and so I presume you are co-parenting. But much of the time you're single parenting because that's what happens now. So how are you doing this all and what made this the right time to start My Next Chapter? Or was it just something you had to do?
Shari Joseph: We had to do it. Once we collaborated, and we're putting these ideas together, and started building, it grew and grew and grew. Every day, we're adding new content, resources. We're adding new events that we feel like we need to have and it's because of our own experiences, experiences for other members, what we're seeing around us just by reading, hearing about your friends at the sidelines. It was the time and it was making the space for it. I think Tamara and I both... Tamara is like, "I can't stop. I'm in it. I'm working all day, all night." But we are so personally connected to it. We want to help. We want to help as many people as possible. We really want to grow so that more people are just aware of the resources and support that we didn't have readily available to us.
And I'm still managing my other businesses, still co-parenting, single parenting, like you said. I call it parallel parenting, which is a thing, especially when you have high conflict, and you can't control what goes on in that other person's home or hotel room. Mine has been living in a hotel for a year with my kids half the time. So yeah, it's been wild ride. But like I said for me, spending time talking about it, being on these events, talking to others in similar situations or different, it's a therapy. It has to be a part of my day.
Tamara Frankfor...: And I admire Shari. I know she gets a lot out of it. I don't know that when I was in the thick of my divorce, would've been in a position to do this. For me, it took the reflection of being in My Next Chapter to actually be able to even contemplate something like this. And yeah, we're all busy. Everybody has stuff going on. I still have other work as well, although this is my primary work. It's a passion project. It's also business, but I've never worked on something I've been so passionate about. And I've worked on, you mentioned Real Simple and Flywheel, these were all new ventures within bigger companies. I have my own app company. It was exciting to create something new and I believed in those products, but this is just entirely different because here, we're helping people.
And we have a new premium product, which is one-on-one coaching, and we've been trained in My Next Chapter, training in partnership with Kate Anthony and all of our background, and so we're actually coaches as well. And so we're leaning in now and have taken on some of our premium members to learn and help evolve our product. Shari and I talk a lot about how that's the most satisfying part of what we're doing, just helping other people, because that's why we started this. And it's just invigorating to be working on something that is a cool, awesome business, but also just helping people in a way that we needed, what I needed, Shari needed, and I need still.
Johanna Almstea...: Wait, so you're like a divorce coach?
Tamara Frankfor...: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: That's so cool. That is so cool.
Tamara Frankfor...: My Next Chapter trained divorce coaches, which is different.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow.
Tamara Frankfor...: We have expert backing, which is the cool part of our program.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Shari Joseph: It's like an expert in your pocket, which I've had to leverage a lot.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, I did too. We reach out to finance and legal when there are questions from our members as well for specifics, so it's something really novel.
Johanna Almstea...: This is so amazing, you guys. I just feel like I want everyone to know that it exists because I do feel like there are so many people that are so alone. There's so much shame. My own mother-in-law said to me one time at a family lunch, said, "We don't get divorced in this family." And I was like, "Oh, well, I'm not sure that that's what I signed up for, but okay, interesting perspective. What happens if you do?" But I think-
Tamara Frankfor...: You don't want to know.
Johanna Almstea...: ... there are so many people that are so alone and don't even know what even first step to take, so I think it's really remarkable what you guys are doing.
Tamara Frankfor...: Thank you.
Johanna Almstea...: I really want to talk a little bit about you guys as partners because I think it's apropos. I like to talk about business partnership anyway. I like to talk about business partnership between women obviously, but I also think it's cool because business partnerships are a lot like marriages in many ways. And so I would love to just talk a little bit about how you guys manage disagreement, how you manage conflict, how do you set your partnership up? Can we talk a little bit about that? I know I've had business partnerships that have felt like marriages and when they fell apart, it felt like a divorce. It felt really hard, there's legal stuff that's involved, and there's other things. And so I would just love to understand a little bit about your guys' perspective on that.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, maybe I can start. I think because what we're partnering on is so personal and so important to us, especially for Shari, who's now dealing with some really hard things that are related, it's like we're friends and we're partners. We come at it leading with kindness and a desire to help each other and just to be sensitive about one another and our situations, because we also both have other things going. Shari, in particular, with our business. We get each other whenever we can. We're texting and calling on the weekend. Shari's in the car with the kids. We're running all over. She's on the plane back from wherever. So that's where it sort of crosses that business personal line.
And then we've been fortunate that we are very compatible, not only in terms of we're yin and yang in our divorce, but also just in what we contribute and what we're good at, so that's been super helpful. We kind of lean in in our specific areas. I think there have been little points where I'm like, "Shari takes on so much," and I'm like, "Whoa, we need a little resource for help there." She's always really responsive. Or if I'm not paying attention to something, which can be frustrating, Shari will flag it. But I think in general, we really work well because of that sort of core mission and purpose that we have in common.
Shari Joseph: I remember when we had our first brainstorm together, Tamara was so prepared, and did all her notes. She came to my office for a brainstorm, I whipped out the poster board, I'm writing, we're rig riffing, and there was someone else in the mix that was brainstorming with us. After that session, Tamara called me and she's like, "So I want to work together. We get each other," and you can tell. And maybe some of it is just the way in which we were brought up through our careers, our styles, and whatnot, but we're very compatible. Relationship [inaudible 00:26:41], we're very compatible.
I would say I don't feel like we've ever had conflict because nothing feels like conflict. If it's a marriage, it would be a long-standing marriage. I don't see a divorce in our future in that regard. It works well and it's what Tamara said, it's leading with kindness, being empathetic, and feeling each other. She knows. She's like, "Okay, you're going to be in it a lot. You're taking on a lot. I know you can do it at night, but you're going to get tired. We're getting a resource." I'm like, "You're right." It's that easy. Some of the things I didn't anticipate would take my time away, the divorce is a full-time job, completely.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, I actually want to talk about that a little bit, if you can. Again, I don't want to get too personal or too into stuff that you don't want to. But...
Shari Joseph: Oh, I have funny stories.
Johanna Almstea...: ... from what I understand, divorce is a full-time job, then you are a full-time mother, and you are running your own other business. How is that happening? You're doing so much, how are you maintaining your mental health? How are you maintaining your physical health? That feels like so much.
Shari Joseph: It is a lot. Physical health was sacrificed through this, and that's something I talk about more openly on My Next Chapter. Wellness is a part of our 360 divorce support we have. You can search whether you're interested in legal, finance, wellness, lifestyle, or dating, which I'm not ready yet. But-
Tamara Frankfor...: I don't think you have time for a man.
Shari Joseph: I don't.
Tamara Frankfor...: No dates.
Shari Joseph: I don't have time.
Tamara Frankfor...: No dates yet.
Shari Joseph: I don't have time, no dates. But it's hard. And I actually realize it's not just going through the divorce, but also in business, being just busy and wanting to dig into everything. That's just our personalities. Tamara and I both are, like, we just want to do it all. If I wasn't running another business, it wouldn't matter. We would still be spending all the time building this into other things too. So it's realizing you can't keep all balls in the air. Which ones are you comfortable dropping? And just prioritizing that way. It's not possible to do everything and to do everything well. Yeah, you don't want to do everything at the same time because then everything's subpar.
I've just found however much I could block my day, and to-do lists galore that all connect with one another, and support building a village. It's hard to do it alone. My mother happens to be very supportive, very supportive friends, very supportive friend and business partner. Knowing that when life is busy for Tamara, I can step in more. When life is busy for me, she can step in more. Just being there for one another is key. I wouldn't be able to do it without the support of my teams, colleagues, and friends. Yeah, I'm being okay with just saying no. No was a hard thing to come by, but it's one of my favorite words now.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm going to ask you that later, what your favorite word is. And one of my guests that I just had a couple weeks ago said her favorite word was no. And I was like, "Amazing." She's like, "I never set boundaries before, now I do, and I say no to things." And I was like, "Oh, I love this."
Shari Joseph: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: When you guys just got on, actually I was talking with our producer, Sophie, I had just re-seen that clip this morning. I don't know if you've seen it, Shonda Rhimes, she's at a graduation ceremony and she's making the keynote speech. Someone asked about having it all or balancing it all and she was like, "I just need you to know one thing. If you see me succeeding in one place, I am most certainly failing at the other." If you see me doing a rewrite on a major script and really flowing with it, I'm definitely missing my daughter's ballet class. Or if you see me at my child's swim class, I'm definitely blowing off something at work that I was supposed to be doing. There's always a trade-off.
Shari Joseph: I know.
Tamara Frankfor...: And I always feel like one thing's going well and then the other thing's not. It's like it can never just all be in sync. I have three kids and it's like two are fine, and then one's not. I'm like, "Come on, guys, just get it together so I can have a day off."
Johanna Almstea...: We can have a full team here.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah.
Shari Joseph: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Totally.
Shari Joseph: Totally.
Tamara Frankfor...: But I found as much as you can be transparent with those around you is good. You need to give people perspective, otherwise everybody wants it and wants it now, and sometimes you need to let them in. Okay, today is particularly going to be busy for me. The kids were just off, on vacation, or they have dentist appointment, which is happening in midday. My day needs to expand and there's not enough hours. To understand, I have a friend that loses that perspective constantly and wants a lot of my attention. I have to unfortunately remind her a lot and she'll be like, "Oh, I just thought I miss you." But she understands and I feel like if I just am honest, it helps.
Johanna Almstea...: And I'd love to talk to you guys a little bit about... Because I imagine it's very different than it was when you were younger, but when you were younger, did you have a picture in your mind of what having it all meant and now what does that look like?
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, I think I pictured myself in Westport, Connecticut with a white fence, the kids in the lab, and the job that I went off to with my happy husband and kids. Obviously, that's not where things ended up. I have three incredible kids that I wouldn't trade for anything, but I'm not in that happy house in Connecticut with my husband. I'm divorced. We talked about the stigma earlier and I think that that societal ideal still exists. That's fantasy. I think less so because more and more, they're different versions of family, couples, happiness, and there's more acceptance around that, I think. And that, I think comes through for our young people, but it's definitely still there and I think part of what we have to try challenge, especially if you're staying in that because that's what the perfect picture is versus what makes you happy.
Johanna Almstea...: Well, I guess that's part of my question too, is that now you know that doesn't necessarily feel perfect, do you have a new picture of what having it all means for you now?
Tamara Frankfor...: I think that that's constantly evolving. I'd like to sit here and say, because I'm happily in My Next Chapter, which I am, that I have it all figured out, I don't. I'd say that I've learned a lot and I've grown a lot, and I think I've come into my own in terms of understanding what makes me happy as an individual and how I can set personal goals that make me feel fulfilled in a way that I didn't. I think divorce has been an opportunity for that.
Of course, if I was happy in my marriage or there was a way that I could be, that is the ideal and I would've stayed, but I wasn't. And now that I'm not, what are the silver linings? One of them really has been that reflection. It forces some self-reflection and who do you want to be as a person? How do you want to show up? And so I think it's allowed me to do that. Which I'm starting to do that now, because as you said, divorce takes a long time. So even when you're not in your next chapter, you have to start doing that while you're in the mist.
Shari Joseph: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, and I guess it's just you still have a lot of life to live and you're not going to end here. Your happiness isn't going to end here, your vitality isn't going to end here, all of that. So I think it's really interesting to think about what does that new picture feel like and look like? Shari, I'd love to know if you even have one because I know you're still in it really.
Shari Joseph: Yeah, I totally agree with the evolution. I never pictured the ideal marriage with the picket fence. I actually knew I always wanted to be a mom, but I actually didn't really think about the partner as much as I thought about the kids.
Johanna Almstea...: Me too. It's weird.
Shari Joseph: I know. I was like, "Is that weird?" And I'm like, "If I don't meet my person, I'm going to have them no matter what." And I set this milestone, it was 35. If I don't have at 35. I met my soon to be ex, not so soon enough to be ex, this is the process, when I was turning 33, so a little bit older than I had maybe thought, but I ended up having my kids at 35 and 36. And also, like Tamara said earlier, I wouldn't trade that. That's what I wanted. I do think now that especially going through the divorce and how much money it's cost me through this process, I thought it would've been cheaper if I went through IVF or however, through the process without someone. But no, I wanted to-
Johanna Almstea...: [inaudible 00:35:24] amazing kids.
Shari Joseph: And I wouldn't have had my amazing kids. Yeah, who they are and who they're becoming. And it's interesting to almost see it through their eyes. I have a son and a daughter, and so I have that perspective of the little boy and little girl, and what they're thinking about. And the way I even had told them about the divorce and how we're talking about it after is that there's so many different types of families. I remember their nursery school class, there was no traditional family of a dad and a mom and their one or two kids, was a minority.
There were twins with two dads. A little girl with a single mom. There was another little boy with two moms. There was a widowed parent. It was fascinating that there were only two kids that had... Again, I'm calling it traditional because again, traditional is not even traditional anymore, but [inaudible 00:36:18]-
Johanna Almstea...: Had a normative...
Shari Joseph: So they don't even think about now of when they think about their future and their families, it just could be completely different. They're focused on what they may want to do professionally and if they want to have kids or not. I love that for them. And as I think about what my future is, it's really focusing on me. And then if there's a partner that comes in, they're adding value to my life, to my kids. It's just as simple as that. But yeah, focusing on things that make me happy. And you asked about physical health before, I gained a lot of weight during this process, an unhappy marriage over the last five years and stress could make you...
Johanna Almstea...: Hold onto it. [inaudible 00:37:05].
Shari Joseph: They say the doctor's like, "It's like mama bear, you're protecting yourself. You don't want to be touched. This is actually building your protective layer." So for me and many other members, some people don't eat when they're stressed. I'm the opposite. Even when I try to be healthy, the weight's still sticking on. And so now I'm like, "Okay, I'm ready." I liked mama bear. I actually got comfortable in this place, but I'm like, "Okay, wait, I'm going to focus on what do I need to do to take care of myself," not just to personally feel better, but also the repercussions that could happen if I don't for my future health are real. So I'm excited now to get back to myself and there's a lot of great content that I've been using from the site really to inspire me to get that going. I'm starting on that journey as well. So yeah, my future is a more fit self, comfortable in my body, and a lot of traveling, whether that's solo or with a partner, and happy kids.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, what's something that you want your kids... I know they're not old enough to listen to this podcast, but when they are, what's something you want them to know about this time that you're going through, what you're going through, that you're building this business, and that you're making sacrifices? I'm sure that sometimes they feel those sacrifices. What do you want them to know about this time?
Shari Joseph: That they'll always have my love and support no matter what is coming my way. I do know that they feel that, which is nice. They say you only need to have one stable parent to be okay. And so I want them to see me as that stable parent that you could work hard and that you can quote, unquote, "Have it all," or have your dreams, whatever they may be as cheesy as it is, but you can still work towards that. It doesn't define you.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, and I think for my kids, obviously life is a balance and we're all doing a lot of different things, I want them to always feel like they're my priority and that I love them, I have their back, and support them. It's not perfect, but we're all kind of doing this. We're at it and we're doing our best. I hear from my kids if they're like, "You're spending too much time in work," or, "You're spending too much time with your boyfriend, come back to me." My kids are older so they express themselves. I don't always do it right and I have to correct or be told to correct, but at the end of the day, I just want them to feel that love and support and know that it'll always be there.
Johanna Almstea...: It's amazing. You guys both have had really successful and exciting careers up until this point, and now you're succeeding currently by building this incredible community. What is something of all of your life thus far that you are most proud of? What's an achievement that you guys are proud of?
Shari Joseph: For me, it's been taking the leap to leave the corporate world and start my own thing and things, is how it's evolved, that I could do it. Everything that I had built with my own company, and even how we're building My Next Chapter, because we really haven't done much marketing and advertising, has been referral-based. And it's building that trust, that you can count on our support and resources. So I would say from my marketing business to My Next Chapter, I'm really proud of that.
Johanna Almstea...: Amazing.
Tamara Frankfor...: I think maybe the question was more professional, but I might answer it.
Johanna Almstea...: No, it could be anything, whatever.
Tamara Frankfor...: I think it was first of all, having the courage to get divorced, then getting through my divorce with my ex, who actually is a great co-parent. We did it in a way that really put the kids first, that made them always understand they're our priority. We're still family, but a different version. And I think that we said these things, then we stood by them, and it's now four or five years later and they believe them. We really, I think did the best we could under the circumstances for our kids. I'm really proud of how we did that and I'm proud of how they are doing and how they've adjusted. And so yeah, I'd say that part.
Johanna Almstea...: That's amazing.
Tamara Frankfor...: It comes with a lot of challenges too.
Johanna Almstea...: It's a lot of challenges, but it also sounds like it comes with a lot of discipline. Like you said, you set your intention about how you were going to do this and then you stuck to it. You've proven yourselves to be trustworthy in the same way too. I think that's huge, particularly when it comes to divorce or challenges in life. I don't know. I think discipline comes up for me a lot because it's easy to let it all go off the rails. Kind of takes a lot more discipline to keep it on the rails.
Shari Joseph: Yeah.
Tamara Frankfor...: Right, yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: For sure. I think that's an interesting thing. Do you guys have anything that you once believed about yourself that you've since outgrown?
Tamara Frankfor...: Well, I'll say one that just happened actually. In business school, I had a really bad experience public speaking. I went up, I was running for some VP of mentorship or some position for the Columbia Women Business Association. I didn't think I was running against anybody, but it turns out I was running against 10 people and there were 100 people in the room.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, gosh.
Tamara Frankfor...: A speech, and I was the second person called up for 50 people running for different positions. I got up there and the woman who was holding the clock was nodding her head, like, "You can do it." And I just had nothing to say and I saw black.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, my God, you really froze.
Tamara Frankfor...: And I was like, "Oh, my God, I can't speak in public. I can never do that again." And then the whole second year of business school, I couldn't even raise my hand in glass. And then anytime I had to speak for work, even personally or work, I would write notes, then I'd read the notes, and I'd be so awkward. And I used to be more of a natural, and then I was like, "Okay, I just am not good at public speaking." And then actually this week, I had to speak at an event and I've been getting a little bit better, a little more comfortable. And then I had this luncheon this week and I worked with someone who helped me figure out how to tell a story. I got up there and I was really natural and was able to do it. I'm like, "Oh, my God, I'm good at public speaking."
Johanna Almstea...: Look at that. I love that for you.
Tamara Frankfor...: 20 plus years later, here I am. Ready-
Johanna Almstea...: That's amazing.
Tamara Frankfor...: ... if anybody wants me.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, my God, I'm on the circuit, people.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, exactly.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm $50,000 every time I stand up to talk.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Wait, so did you work with a coach? Who did you work with to help you tell the story?
Tamara Frankfor...: Well, actually, my boyfriend helped me, because he's a natural speaker and has done Ted talks and whatever else.
Johanna Almstea...: Wait, but I love this because this is a recent thing that happens. Isn't it crazy how we get these things in our minds and we tell ourselves that we can't do something, or we are something, or whatever?
Tamara Frankfor...: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: I love this. This is a very recent win.
Tamara Frankfor...: It was a breakthrough.
Johanna Almstea...: Congrats.
Tamara Frankfor...: I definitely slept well that night.
Johanna Almstea...: That's so good. I love it.
Tamara Frankfor...: And then the next day, I had 16 challenges. That one's over, but here we are.
Johanna Almstea...: Got to take the wins when you get them though.
Tamara Frankfor...: Take the win in the moment.
Johanna Almstea...: So true. What about you, Shari?
Shari Joseph: So my background's in PR. I am very comfortable being behind the camera, helping to direct, prepare other people, so this is a change. And also-
Johanna Almstea...: I can relate.
Shari Joseph: ... on mynextchapterofficial on Instagram, you'll see a lot of our stories and we're a lot of live events, sharing our experiences, and trying to help others in a very public way. Which I never thought I would be doing, but I'm embracing all of my journey. And it was always kind of waiting till I felt, "Okay, wait till I'm a little skinnier." I wish I could tell my 20-year-old self, "You looked great." When I thought I was heavy and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, look at you now." But I'm like, "You know what? This is great. This is me and this is me on my journey." And just getting comfortable then doing that and being myself. That's been the biggest shift for me.
Johanna Almstea...: I love that, because you have such an important story to tell and you have so much important experience and perspective that you have to put yourself out there.
Shari Joseph: Thank you.
Johanna Almstea...: It's hard though, isn't it?
Shari Joseph: It is.
Johanna Almstea...: As a former publicist.
Shari Joseph: No, I'm enjoying it. I love doing these talks and more. I hide the self view when I can, just so I'm looking at your beautiful faces and not critiquing myself in the camera. So whatever we could do to be comfortable.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, I did something actually in front of myself.
Shari Joseph: Do you?
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, I'm just looking at you guys.
Shari Joseph: Oh, that's good. Whatever works.
Johanna Almstea...: I have a friend who I just had on, she's a celebrity publicist and has always been behind the scenes, and she's like, "This is so weird." And I was like, "I know." We're not the ones usually in these seats. We're used to being the ones that are prepping, doing all the questions, and making all the arrangements, but it's good. Sometimes the world needs to hear from us too.
Shari Joseph: It's so true. And in the spirit of how you're dividing, conquering, I'm seeing notice the school is calling me, and then my ex was just calling me and I'm like, "What's going on?" So I'm just side texting. I'm like, "Is everything okay?" "Oh, well," my son apparently isn't feeling well. He was out yesterday and needs to be picked up from school, but he's comfortable in the nurse's office, so we have a little bit of time to go.
Johanna Almstea...: Just tell me if you need to, we'll wrap it up really quickly.
Shari Joseph: Yeah. But no, they're at the age where they just love the comfort of the nurse's office. But no, it's just trying to manage it. Don't expect those things in co-parenting. And of course, my ex, who mind you, does not work right now, hasn't for a little while, free as a bird-
Johanna Almstea...: He's not the one that's getting the call from the nurse?
Shari Joseph: Well, he got the call, but he's telling me he can't go to pick him up because he has an appointment.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Shari Joseph: So just the weight is always on me to do the parenting, but we'll still fight for the custody.
Johanna Almstea...: Right. Oh, man, that's so hard. Okay. So that brings me to I feel very strongly about women continuing to dream for themselves. Even while all of this is going on, because you don't have a fucking second to breathe. You don't have a second to do a podcast, right? It's all happening. So I always to ask, are you dreaming about anything? Do you allow yourself time to dream? If so, what are you dreaming about? Or if you're not, can you start soon?
Shari Joseph: So mine is always travel related, and it always really has been. Having a trip on the calendar brings me life and it's like once one is done, I need to have another. It could be small and it could be alone, it could be with friends, it could be with my kids, but I need to have something on the calendar. My dreams end up being something fabulous and far. It may include my private plane that I don't have that may be taking me there.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm very supportive of that for you.
Shari Joseph: Travel easily with the dog. I feel like I have a small farm now. Mom guilt, that happens. I have parakeets and dogs and my kids want another dog, so I'd be able to take the farm easily with me instead of having to drop them off and find homes for them on my travels.
Johanna Almstea...: I like that dream.
Shari Joseph: The dream of just amazing travel adventures and being able to do it all while I'm traveling.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, it's similar to me. There's so many places I want to go. I dream about My Next Chapter being huge and for us to be just the known resource for people navigating divorce. Our core offering is complimentary and we do that intentionally because we want to help as many people as we can. We know some people just can't afford it. And obviously there's... Not obviously, but there is a premium layer, but our real goal and our mission right now is just to be out there for as many people as possible. That, for us, is success in this moment and the rest, we think will come. This is what I dream about currently.
Johanna Almstea...: I love that. How do you guys nourish yourself during all of this? You're obviously nourishing a business, you're nourishing your families, you're nourishing your relationships with friends, with partners, whatever it is. How do you nourish yourself?
Tamara Frankfor...: I run. I do TM. I learned transcendental meditation five years ago. I believe in it. It's been great for me for centering. I like a glass of wine or two generally. I try not to be every night.
Johanna Almstea...: That totally counts as nourishment, by the way.
Shari Joseph: Yeah, exactly.
Johanna Almstea...: Because I'm an expert, and it [inaudible 00:49:49].
Shari Joseph: And the stuff that we all like, family, friends, travel, life.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, how about you, Shari?
Shari Joseph: I'm a work in progress in this department. Need to remind myself to nourish myself.
Johanna Almstea...: That's why I asked the question.
Shari Joseph: So working on that. But yeah, I'm trying to be in the moment with everything that I'm doing and as I'm absorbing the content that we're sharing, truly absorbing it, trying to be like, "Yes, focus on you. What could you do?" I need to move my body more. That's really important. I'm trying to step away from too much on Zoom. It's not nourishing to be standing in front of the computer all day. But yeah, putting things on the calendar. The glimmer with divorce, especially if you do have shared custody, is the moments when you don't have to worry about picking someone up or what time they're coming home, is that you time and indulging in that as best as I could. Those are the bright lights. It's like I could enjoy the best of being single and by single, it's just not having to worry about picking up the kids, and where they need to be, and binge watching shows. I feel like that's nourishment for me a lot.
Johanna Almstea...: Are you watching The Diplomat by any chance, or have you watched it?
Shari Joseph: I haven't, no. Should I add it to my list?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, it's really good.
Shari Joseph: Okay.
Tamara Frankfor...: It is good actually. I love it.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, it's so good. And I just finished the list.
Shari Joseph: Okay. I'm adding it.
Johanna Almstea...: It's like a good binge one too, because it's cliffhangers on every one.
Shari Joseph: Okay.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, it's really good.
Shari Joseph: Somebody told me another one recently, but I'm... Oh, All Her Fault on Peacock, apparently that's a good one.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, I hadn't heard about that one.
Shari Joseph: I was just told. I just added that to the list. But yeah, when I could just have some time and not have any work commitments and such, it's almost like staying up late because that's when no one's bothering you.
Johanna Almstea...: Totally. Is there anything that you guys have ever said no to that you wish that you had said yes to?
Tamara Frankfor...: No to? That's a good question.
Shari Joseph: I'll [inaudible 00:52:03] with the yeses as much as I can. Things like-
Johanna Almstea...: I know. More.
Tamara Frankfor...: I think for me, I think when my kids were younger, this is such a weird one, but I was asked to be class parent, I was always so busy and I said no. And now I'm like, "Oh, kind of feel like I should have done that a couple times." I don't know. I was working nonstop and I am obviously there for my kids, but I think there was a way I probably could have shown up more at school. I don't know, it's a weird one. I thought of it really late.
Johanna Almstea...: I don't think that's weird at all. I think that's very normal.
Tamara Frankfor...: Okay.
Johanna Almstea...: I think it's very normal.
Shari Joseph: And I'm like opposite, because I say yes and I wish I said no, because I'm like, "Why don't I add that to my mix?"
Johanna Almstea...: You are not alone on this podcast, by the way. There's a lot of people who are like, "You know what, I actually should say no more often."
Shari Joseph: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, like, "I need to be there too."
Shari Joseph: Yeah, I don't say no enough, so I can't say I can think of that perfect moment that I said no that I wish I said yes, because I probably said yes and wish that I said no more often.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Key takeaway from this. Write that down. I should say no more.
Shari Joseph: Exactly.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, my goodness. Okay. So we are now at the very exciting time of the lightning round of silly questions. A lot of them have to do with food, but that's just because I like to talk about food. I also think that we as women don't talk about food enough and nourishing ourselves enough in a healthy way, so that's partially why I like to talk about it. But then there's also just weird questions. So let's go Shari first and then Tamara for these. Favorite comfort food.
Shari Joseph: Tomatoes. That's so weird, I know. It's my favorite food.
Johanna Almstea...: I know. I love it.
Shari Joseph: Cherry tomatoes, love them.
Johanna Almstea...: But all year round or only in the summer when they're just delicious?
Shari Joseph: You can give a bowl of anything and cherry tomatoes, and I will always choose tomatoes.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow.
Shari Joseph: That and cheese. They go well together.
Johanna Almstea...: They do go well together. Okay. Tamara?
Tamara Frankfor...: I love popcorn and I like kettle corn actually, and this is really weird, but I still use butter spray.
Johanna Almstea...: What the fuck? Really? Do they still make that?
Tamara Frankfor...: I'm dating a chef now who's like, "Oh, my God, I can't even look in your fridge." But yeah, I spray butter spray on my kettle corn popcorn and it makes me really happy.
Johanna Almstea...: Have you ever checked the ingredients of that? Because I want to know-
Tamara Frankfor...: No.
Johanna Almstea...: ... if there's actually-
Tamara Frankfor...: I don't even want to-
Johanna Almstea...: ... butter.
Tamara Frankfor...: ... [inaudible 00:54:26].
Shari Joseph: Chemical.
Johanna Almstea...: Chemical.
Tamara Frankfor...: I can't believe I just admitted that on here. Don't tell anyone, everyone.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, my God. She's going down. Guys, take divorce advice from her, but do not take nutrition advice from her.
Tamara Frankfor...: No, we have an expert for that.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Shari, what is something you are really good at?
Shari Joseph: I'm really good at listening.
Johanna Almstea...: Great. How about you, Tamara?
Tamara Frankfor...: I think I'm really good at bringing fun.
Johanna Almstea...: I like that.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, I like to just have fun.
Johanna Almstea...: She brings the vibes.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah.
Shari Joseph: She does.
Tamara Frankfor...: I try.
Shari Joseph: I can vouch for that.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Shari, what is something you're really bad at? We know that you're really bad at saying no, so we're not going to use that one. What else are you really bad at?
Shari Joseph: Okay, fine. I can't say that one. I'm really bad at running. Tamara's favorite thing to nourish herself.
Johanna Almstea...: It hurts.
Shari Joseph: And the worst. I'm the one at the end, the last person to finish.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. What about you, Tamara?
Tamara Frankfor...: Well, I used to be bad at public speaking, but I'm not.
Johanna Almstea...: You're not anymore.
Tamara Frankfor...: I'm really bad at... I'd say keeping up, organizing my emails and my texts and keeping up with that. I'm just so bad at that. And sometimes I get good for a minute and then I feel so much better about myself, but I'm just not good.
Johanna Almstea...: It's a lot.
Shari Joseph: I have that 42,000. Do you see that on the bottom?
Tamara Frankfor...: Oh, yeah. What am I at?
Shari Joseph: I win the competition. I know.
Tamara Frankfor...: I have 18,000.
Shari Joseph: Beat you.
Tamara Frankfor...: Terrible, Shari.
Johanna Almstea...: But I wouldn't expect that of you.
Shari Joseph: I know. It's because all my inboxes have merged into one and so it's just spam.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Can we make a goal for when My Next Chapter really hits it big, we get you guys an admin to answer your emails? That's one of the first fires.
Tamara Frankfor...: That's going to be one of our first expenses, please. Let's put that line item in there.
Shari Joseph: We answer emails. If you're emailing us for My Next Chapter, we do.
Tamara Frankfor...: It's not because we didn't like you or didn't read it. We probably missed it. Send it again.
Shari Joseph: Send again.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah.
Shari Joseph: Text us.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, my God. Okay. We're going to switch it up now. Tamara, what's your favorite word?
Tamara Frankfor...: Okay, cool. I love the word, cool, and not because I'm too cool for school or I think it's... But one of my expressions is be cool. One of my friends got it for me on a sweater and I always say that to my kids. I'm like, guys, "Just be cool. "So I love Cool.
Johanna Almstea...: I love that. Okay. Shari, what about you?
Shari Joseph: It's so funny. Mine, all these cheesy funny words come to mind. My mom used to make up these words. She would call me [inaudible 00:57:03] and it just stuck. I know. It's so weird.
Johanna Almstea...: It's so cute.
Shari Joseph: It's one of those. And my kids have picked it up and my mom, she says, "Schmegegge," and these funny words. So I love all those silly made up words.
Johanna Almstea...: I love that.
Shari Joseph: They're fun.
Johanna Almstea...: That that's fun. They'll be hard to make into a T-shirt, but it's cute.
Tamara Frankfor...: Very hard.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Tamara. Least favorite food. You're not even trying it, like, no.
Tamara Frankfor...: Ooh, least favorite food. I don't like liver pâté, any of that stuff. It's gross.
Johanna Almstea...: Shari, what about you?
Shari Joseph: So I have a palette of a five-year-old. My list is kind of long, but anything from the sea, sadly.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, sad.
Tamara Frankfor...: That is so sad.
Shari Joseph: I know.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. But you like tomatoes?
Shari Joseph: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I do like tomatoes, so it's just...
Johanna Almstea...: Interesting. Okay. Tamara, least favorite word.
Tamara Frankfor...: Least favorite word, mommy. Mom. Mom, mom, mom. Last night in my house, I'm literally running all over the house, "You get the freaking water." My 18 year old, like, come on.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, mommy can get some water. Yeah, it's tough.
Tamara Frankfor...: When it's said that way, I don't mind, like, "Mommy."
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Shari Joseph: That's the lovely version.
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Totally. What about you, Shari?
Shari Joseph: Oh, I have a few. It's like fonts. Only a specific type in order to look at a document.
Tamara Frankfor...: I sent her something. She's like, "Wait, I got to change the font. I can't even read it."
Shari Joseph: I can't. Certain fonts are like... So it's like all those business words that people use too much, can we align on this or-
Johanna Almstea...: Those are circle backs. Put a pin in it.
Shari Joseph: Circle back, ugh. Yeah, and I use that.
Tamara Frankfor...: I also hate trigger, by the way, how annoying is trigger?
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, trigger. I feel like it's also become totally overused.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, just like narcissists, that one's bad too.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes.
Shari Joseph: Right now, I hate 67.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, God.
Shari Joseph: Not that that's a word.
Tamara Frankfor...: I don't even know what that means.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, thank your lucky stars that you know what that means?
Tamara Frankfor...: No, I know. There was a New York Times article on it that I flagged. I haven't read it yet, on why adults hate 67.
Johanna Almstea...: It's the stupidest thing. It makes no sense at all and it's not funny. I don't even understand it and it's everywhere all the time.
Tamara Frankfor...: I know.
Shari Joseph: So true.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, god. Anyway, okay. That was triggering.
Shari Joseph: 67 is triggering.
Johanna Almstea...: Right? I know. That's a word. It is basically a word right now because my kids are like...
Shari Joseph: Do they do this when they do it? Do they do this? 67? How many seconds are in a minute plus seven.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, so annoying.
Shari Joseph: Are you kidding?
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Shari Joseph: They're elementary school age, if you couldn't tell.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah. No, I'm there. I'm there with you. I am deep in. Okay. Tamara, best piece of advice you've ever received.
Tamara Frankfor...: I think focus on what you can control.
Johanna Almstea...: That's a good one.
Tamara Frankfor...: I think I heard that young in some fashion, and we talk about a lot in My Next Chapter, but that just is a game changer.
Johanna Almstea...: Totally. Okay. Shari, what about you?
Shari Joseph: That is one of my favorite pieces of advice, so I'll add to that. It'll be okay. It will work out. Things will be okay. You'll be okay. At first, when I was told, "Your kids will be fine," and when it seems like everything's going crazy, you'd think, "How could they be?" And then I look at my kids and they're fine. They're great. And it's because I'm okay. And if I could show them I'm okay, they'll be okay. And so it's true.
Johanna Almstea...: That's a good one. Okay. Tamara, if your personality were a flavor, what would it be? Ooh. I kind of want to ask your chef boyfriend this. Just saying.
Shari Joseph: That's a good question.
Tamara Frankfor...: Let me see. God. What's something a little edgy?
Johanna Almstea...: A little edgy?
Shari Joseph: A little spicy?
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Is it a little spicy or is it a little tangy?
Tamara Frankfor...: Like a medium salsa.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm medium salsa.
Tamara Frankfor...: [inaudible 01:01:31], I know.
Johanna Almstea...: A little racier than mild, but certainly not spicy.
Tamara Frankfor...: Maybe extra medium, I don't know. So random.
Johanna Almstea...: Extra medium. Okay. That's it. Okay. Shari, what about you?
Shari Joseph: It's funny. I'm just... Wanted say chocolate chip cookie dough and I don't know if I have a necessarily good explanation as to why, but it's just-
Johanna Almstea...: You don't have to explain. There's no judgment here. I love it.
Tamara Frankfor...: Listen to what I just said.
Johanna Almstea...: Extra medium.
Tamara Frankfor...: You can follow up with anything.
Shari Joseph: Right.
Johanna Almstea...: It's very interesting though, because a lot of people automatically go to ice cream flavors.
Shari Joseph: Ice cream.
Johanna Almstea...: Right?
Shari Joseph: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: They don't think about other flavor profiles, so just something to think about, no biggie.
Shari Joseph: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: This is not some deep personality chest. Okay. Tamara, it's your last supper, you're leaving this body and this Earth tomorrow. It's not sad though. It's all just an evolution. It's for your next chapter, but it's really, really good. What are you eating tonight?
Tamara Frankfor...: I love pizza. I'm definitely eating pizza. Veggie pizza. Really good sushi, Blue Ribbon style, delicious sushi, and popcorn with butter spread.
Shari Joseph: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: I love it.
Shari Joseph: That's amazing.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. And are you drinking anything with this meal?
Tamara Frankfor...: Yes, I'm having a Sauvignon Blanc or Pinot Grigio.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Tamara Frankfor...: Maybe a little diet ginger ale, some water.
Johanna Almstea...: Just add a little fizz a little fizz to the night. Okay. Shari, what about you?
Shari Joseph: Hands down, I'm having a chicken Parmesan, thinly pounded chicken Parmesan, very cheesy. I am drinking... Well, I have to have a diet Coke and water. There's a few beverages in the mix.
Johanna Almstea...: So many beverages. Okay.
Shari Joseph: Then there's a dirty martini.
Johanna Almstea...: I like your style.
Shari Joseph: After that, because I kind of just want, then I'll do a spicy margarita.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, you go from martini to margarita?
Shari Joseph: I do.
Johanna Almstea...: Wow.
Shari Joseph: Or sometimes I'll switch margarita, then martini, but I do a good cocktail.
Johanna Almstea...: And then with your chicken parm, are you having pasta also? Is it with spaghetti, penne, or what's your pasta choice?
Shari Joseph: Yeah. Oh, I don't really discriminate on anything like yummy carbs. So I'd probably say spaghetti if it's with the chicken parm, and then lots of parmesan cheese. When they say, "Tell us when to stop," I don't. You don't stop.
Johanna Almstea...: You're like, "Just keep putting it on."
Shari Joseph: I'm just like, "Keep coming."
Johanna Almstea...: Crazy.
Shari Joseph: Until it starts to get uncomfortable and they're like, "Ma'am? Ma'am?"
Johanna Almstea...: Bathe me in all your parmesan. Okay. I'm curious to hear this one because... Well, just because the topic at hand. Have you ever had a moment in your life where you've had to eat your words, Tamara?
Shari Joseph: Oh, my God.
Tamara Frankfor...: Oh, yeah. All the time. Who hasn't, right?
Johanna Almstea...: Right.
Tamara Frankfor...: And constantly.
Johanna Almstea...: Are there any good ones that stand out?
Tamara Frankfor...: I think I told my son that he should just go live at his dad's. I was like, "Oh, I didn't mean that one."
Johanna Almstea...: You're like, "Zip, I'm just going to take that one right back. Sorry."
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, I think he told me first that he wanted to only live there. I was like, "Go live there then."
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. That's fair. It was retaliatory.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yes, exactly.
Shari Joseph: Didn't mean it, if you ever listen to this. I love you.
Tamara Frankfor...: I love you. I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. I want you to stay and live here forever.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. What about you, Shari?
Shari Joseph: Mine is definitely divorce related because there's a lot of that.
Johanna Almstea...: I imagine.
Shari Joseph: I initially intended this to be very amicable, as most try to do. I had said, "Oh, it'll be nice. Maybe you'll come over for a pizza and Wednesday nights." That has come back to haunt me, like, "I'm not just going to be the dad that would just come over for pizza." I'm like, "Oh, my God, I wasn't serious." That was just a...
Johanna Almstea...: [inaudible 01:05:43].
Shari Joseph: We could be copacetic and all be in the same place. So that comes up a lot.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. We have to eat the words, not the pizza.
Shari Joseph: We're never having pizza...
Johanna Almstea...: Never having pizza.
Shari Joseph: ... together.
Tamara Frankfor...: Even though it's your favorite.
Johanna Almstea...: Specifically on Wednesday nights, you're not having pizza?
Shari Joseph: No, not with him.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Tamara, if you could eat one food for the rest of your life, what would it be? You don't have to worry about nutritional value, it'll just sustain you. It's fine.
Tamara Frankfor...: I think I'd stick with pizza. I love pizza.
Johanna Almstea...: It's good.
Tamara Frankfor...: I know.
Johanna Almstea...: It's complete food.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, I crave it.
Johanna Almstea...: I could eat pizza all day long. What about you, Shari?
Shari Joseph: Well, I like that you said pizza, because it combines things. I was thinking I was going tomatoes and cheese, but pizza kind of covers that. I can say Caprese salad and then I'd have my-
Johanna Almstea...: My two favorite things.
Shari Joseph: ... two favorites. Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: All the time.
Shari Joseph: All the time.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Tamara, where is your happy place?
Tamara Frankfor...: That's a good question. Oh, God. I love Central Park.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah.
Tamara Frankfor...: I love running in Central Park. I like walking in it. I don't know. And I like being in the city more than anywhere, even the beach. I just love New York City.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. How about you, Shari?
Shari Joseph: My happy place is my home, especially that I'm in a place that's mine and it's probably in my bed with my dog curled up. Kids are sleeping in their beds and I'm binge watching TV. That's my happy place, for sure.
Johanna Almstea...: That sounds lovely.
Shari Joseph: It's lovely.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm very happy for you. That's so nice.
Shari Joseph: Thank you.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. Tamara, what did you have for dinner last night?
Tamara Frankfor...: Oh, I actually had sushi.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Tamara Frankfor...: There's a place called Bondi Sushi near here that my kids are into. Crispy rice and [inaudible 01:07:30].
Johanna Almstea...: Yummy. Yeah.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: What about you, Shari?
Shari Joseph: Oh, my God, particularly last night, it's so depressing. I feel like it was one of those nights where I was making different things for my kids and then just whatever they left over is what I ate. So it was like one dinosaur chicken nugget, some chicken noodle soup that my son decided he didn't like. And then there was some pasta left over, so I melted some cheese and butter on that pasta.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. This why I asked this question, and then I'm also going to go back to nourishing ourselves. Just full circle moment here for a minute. Yeah, I know.
Shari Joseph: Johanna, what'd you have?
Johanna Almstea...: What did I have? Oh, we ordered in... This is really sad guys. The reason why is sad, we ordered in Mexican, so I had an empanada and I had... They do this hearts of palm taco, so I had a little hearts of palm taco and a...
Shari Joseph: This sounds good
Johanna Almstea...: ... empanada. But the reason we ordered it is because it was actually my wedding anniversary yesterday and both my husband and I forgot about it until very late the night before. We both had full on psychotic days and he was like, "Well, we should try to do something." And I was like, "I don't have time to do something. I don't even have time to shower to go out to dinner." And so we ordered in Mexican with our kids.
Shari Joseph: That's a nice way to celebrate you. Romantic-ish. You do what you can.
Johanna Almstea...: Yeah, we'll see. But I always like to ask because some people are like, "I had a steak frite and I had a glass of wine," and other people are like, "A cheese doodle and a pickle, and that was it." So it's always fascinating to me. Okay. What do you guys wear when you want to take on the world? You are going to have a big meeting, you're presenting My Next Chapter for somebody big, or you're going on a hot date, what do you put on your body to feel like powerful and great?
Tamara Frankfor...: Our lifestyle expert, her name is Gayle Perry. I don't know if you've seen her. She's great. We have a lot of tips on My Next Chapter about building confidence and owning your identity physically. She's sort of morphed me into this outfit that I love, which is jeans, a white button down, with the way she likes to tie it, a cool blazer and boots.
Johanna Almstea...: Love it.
Tamara Frankfor...: That's my vibe.
Johanna Almstea...: And you feel really good in it?
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, I do.
Johanna Almstea...: That's so good.
Tamara Frankfor...: I know. It's good. And the blazer is good too, just to layer it over anything and you don't have to care as much about what's below it or how you feel.
Johanna Almstea...: I love a blazer. I feel blazers do so many things. Okay. What about you, Shari?
Shari Joseph: So I hope I'm taking over the world in the fall because my go-to is black tights with a black dress, black booties. Surprise, the theme here, my favorite color of attire happens to be black, and a blazer. I have this blank NYC kind of soft, leathery blazer that I've had for, I don't know, maybe 10 years. It's always my go-to. Something about how that all lays very comfortably makes me feel good and it's my go-to.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay. And is the dress short, long, or mid-length?
Shari Joseph: Short, yeah. It's a little above my knees.
Johanna Almstea...: I like it.
Shari Joseph: Not too short.
Johanna Almstea...: And this still makes you feel great. I like this.
Shari Joseph: Yes.
Johanna Almstea...: You always reach for it.
Shari Joseph: I do.
Johanna Almstea...: I love this. Okay. Good. Okay. Go-to coping mechanism on a bad day. I imagine for you, Shari, you might have a few right now, as you're in it, what do you do? Shit is going sideways. The kids are sick. There's a fight with the ex, whatever it is. Work crazy. What do you do to cope?
Shari Joseph: Xanax.
Johanna Almstea...: Good answer. This episode is sponsored by...
Shari Joseph: Tamara has to remind me that I have a Xanax prescription and to take it honestly. I'm like, "I'm feeling overwhelmed," and she's like, "Did you take your Xanax?" I'm like, "Oh, right."
Tamara Frankfor...: Take your Xanax.
Shari Joseph: I'm the best person to prescribe to because I forget that I have it as an option to take so I don't abuse anything. That, and remembering to breathe, because I feel like when it's all going crazy, it's just like, okay, sit, focus and breathe.
Tamara Frankfor...: For me, sometimes I'm just like, "Okay, this day sucks and I'm not going to fix it." I go to bed as early as I can. I'm like, "New day."
Johanna Almstea...: Totally.
Tamara Frankfor...: And I say that to my kids too, a lot. I'm like, "Just go to bed. Tomorrow's a new day."
Johanna Almstea...: I always say, "Shut it down." Just shut it down. It's not getting any better.
Tamara Frankfor...: Be cool. Go to bed.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes. I like that. Okay. Dream dinner party guest list. Dead or alive. You can have as many people as you want. Everyone will accept. They will all say yes, because some people get insecure that if they invite someone famous, they won't come. But the new rule is everyone accepts and they come. Who are you guys inviting? Tamara, you go first.
Tamara Frankfor...: So I love Eddie Vedder. I think he's so cool.
Johanna Almstea...: Oh, he is.
Tamara Frankfor...: And he's all about positivity and he has just amazing stories. I love mixing him maybe with an Oprah, a Gail King. I love her.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Tamara Frankfor...: Bob Roth, who's amazing. He's my meditation teacher and he's a great listener, really wise. My sister's really fun. She could come. I don't know, that's my mix.
Johanna Almstea...: I like it. It's a good mix.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Are we asking Eddie Vedder to actually play any music or is it just-
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, why not?
Johanna Almstea...: Just a little acoustic set.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yeah, absolutely.
Johanna Almstea...: Just checking. Eddie, are you out there? Are you ready to come through? Shari, what about you?
Shari Joseph: This is a hard question for me. It's funny, before you said Eddie Vedder, I was thinking Madonna would be cool to have at my...
Johanna Almstea...: She's good. She's never been mentioned on here.
Shari Joseph: Oh, really? I just love her. I tried to be her for Halloween one year, in her material girl era. I do not look good as a blonde.
Johanna Almstea...: I'm sorry.
Shari Joseph: It was not cute. But she's fun. Definitely, Tamara brings the fun. She'd be invited to my dinner party.
Tamara Frankfor...: I'll come.
Shari Joseph: I feel like I want a whole 80s... I want a theme. I might as well just do my favorite movies. We'd have some flash dance action, maybe Kevin Bacon.
Johanna Almstea...: 100%. Do you follow him on Instagram? I think it'd be really fun if you don't.
Shari Joseph: Oh, he'd be so fun.
Johanna Almstea...: You need to.
Shari Joseph: Yeah, for sure.
Group: [inaudible 01:13:58].
Tamara Frankfor...: I was going to say, they're cute, because they dance in the kitchen.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Shari Joseph: Yeah, really mix it up. You have Channing Tatum in the mix.
Johanna Almstea...: Arm candy.
Tamara Frankfor...: Hello.
Johanna Almstea...: For sure.
Shari Joseph: Yeah.
Johanna Almstea...: Okay.
Shari Joseph: Be a fun party.
Johanna Almstea...: I like it.
Shari Joseph: Sounds good. We'll keep it intimate.
Johanna Almstea...: Just you on Channing Tatum's lap.
Shari Joseph: That sounds great. You said dreams, right? That sounds great.
Johanna Almstea...: I like it. Okay. And very, very lastly, what is one thing you know for sure right now, today, here in this moment, you don't have to know it tomorrow, you didn't have to know it yesterday? Shari, what do you know right now for sure.
Shari Joseph: I know for sure that... I kind of said this before, but I have to remind myself that I will be okay because as I said, I'm still in the thick of this and it keeps feeling like the longest... It's just Groundhog's Day. So yeah, that's the only thing I know right now, because everything that I think I know changes up on me. No day is ever the same, but I know I will be okay at the end of this.
Johanna Almstea...: That's a good thing to know.
Tamara Frankfor...: I go back to this a lot, but I'm healthy, my kids are healthy, my parents are healthy. I think that we all see life is short and just to recognize and appreciate that we are in this moment and we're healthy is huge.
Johanna Almstea...: Great. That's beautiful. Shari, can you tell the nice people who are listening, where they can find you guys, where they can learn more about My Next Chapter, socials, all that stuff?
Shari Joseph: Yeah, sure. So we make it easy, mynextchapter.com is where you could find us. We're on Instagram, mynextchapterofficial. Yeah, come send us a message, drop us a DM, check us out. My Next Chapter is free to be a core member and access so much great content. So dabble, even on behalf of a friend.
Johanna Almstea...: Or send it to your friends if you know people.
Shari Joseph: Send it to your friends.
Johanna Almstea...: And to people who need it.
Shari Joseph: Yes, exactly. Follow us.
Johanna Almstea...: Well, thank you. Thank you both so much. I know you have very, very full lives and I know this is a lot. I know you have a kid in a nurse's office.
Shari Joseph: Yeah, I have to go pick him up.
Tamara Frankfor...: I want to go eat pizza and popcorn.
Johanna Almstea...: I think you should. I think you should do all the things, but I really appreciate you guys sharing your stories and sharing your brilliance with our listeners. I know people are going to be inspired. I know people are going to be helped by what you are doing and I'm so grateful for the time you've spent with me today, so thank you so much.
Tamara Frankfor...: Thank you, Johanna. You're so great. Let's have a drink next time.
Johanna Almstea...: Yes, please. Can we?
Shari Joseph: Love that.
Tamara Frankfor...: Yes, please.
Shari Joseph: Thank you.
Johanna Almstea...: Thank you.
Well, that was fun. Oh, man, I am so inspired by them. I think the work they're doing is so important and I'm so excited about spreading their message and hopefully getting more eyes on their platform. If there is somebody that you think could benefit from this, even if they are just divorce curious, please share this episode with them. You can copy it right in the side of your media player. There's usually a little thing that says share or copy link, and you can copy it, you can text it to them, you can email it to them, you can send it over DM in social media. You can do all the things. I hope we can get some more eyes on their platform and by doing so, you're getting more eyes on our platform, so thank you in advance for that.
If you're not doing so already, please follow us on social media. We are @eatmywordsthe podcast on TikTok and Instagram. And if you haven't done so already, also please subscribe or follow the pod. That really helps us. Every like, every comment, every share, every time you guys interact on these episodes really, really helps. Also, leave us a review if you're up for it. Okay. I hope you guys were as inspired as I am. They really are doing such important work and I'm so grateful for the conversation that I've just had with them. So thank you guys for tuning in and I will catch you on the next one.
This Eat My Words podcast has been created and directed by me, Johanna Almstead. Our producer is Sophy Drouin. Our audio editor is Isabel Robertson and our brand manager is Mila Bujna.