Dan Sullivan [00:00:00]:
Then the next big hop, the next technology was jfk, John Kennedy, who really mastered what you're supposed to look like on television. And Richard Nixon. And Richard Nixon did not. Okay. And.
Mike Koenigs [00:00:17]:
About 20 some years now, when podcasting started, is now arguably the most powerful dominant form of media because it's giving people what they want, which is number one. There are no barriers, are no borders to get into the business. And I saw this happening the first time Trump showed up on a podcast. I said, he just won.
Dan Sullivan [00:00:39]:
The Bill of Rights is what allows the Constitution to be an effective operating system so that the overall country continues to progress. If you really want to be a great entrepreneur in the United States, look to the first 10amendments as the basis for your opportunity.
Mike Koenigs [00:00:56]:
It's genius. Genius. All right. We just lived through an unbelievably fascinating experience and experiment with the new administration. Donald Trump is the new President elect, and I would argue that he won because of podcasts. What this episode is all about. Dan is an amazing historian. We're going to talk about who mastered what mediums first and how that created decisive wins in political history, starting with Roosevelt.
Mike Koenigs [00:01:44]:
So what you can expect is to see a lot of conversation about what medium, from radio to television to cable to social media, has been responsible for elevating huge personalities that took advantage of these and had the foresight or accidentally fell into it, whatever it was. But Dan's got the inside dope on this. You're going to learn a ton, both historically, but also about the power of influence and creating momentum that you can use in your business, in your life as well. So, Dan, so let's talk about. First of all, do you want to start at the end, which is probably one of the most fascinating things about how long format podcasts created a massive movement that the Democrats had no idea what hit them, in my opinion. And then we'll go. We can start at the beginning, but I'll let you decide where we're going to start first.
Dan Sullivan [00:02:38]:
Yeah, well, first of all, the range, historical range between Roosevelt and Trump. So is interesting to me because when I was born, Roosevelt was the President. So I was born in 1944. He had been president for 12 years and he had just been re elected for the fourth time. He's the only president elected more than twice, and they instituted an amendment to the Constitution that he would be the last nobody. You could never have that again. You only get two terms. But we were talking, we were at Genius Network and we were at a.
Mike Koenigs [00:03:23]:
Bob Castellini's house.
Dan Sullivan [00:03:25]:
Yeah, great party. At Bob Castellini's house, which is a house to experience. He's got a phenomenal house on top of as high, about as high as you can go up on Camelback Mountain and look out at Paradise Valley Sanctuary.
Mike Koenigs [00:03:42]:
Breathtaking. Breathtaking.
Dan Sullivan [00:03:43]:
Yeah. And we were just chatting, and we got. We got on a riff. We started talking about technologies, communication technologies, and the thing that won it for Roosevelt more than anything else, because he was crippled. You know, he was in a wheelchair. The thing that got him was his mastery of radio. That made it seem as if he, the President of the United States, was talking to you in your living room, listening to. Listening to your radio.
Dan Sullivan [00:04:14]:
And other politicians did this. I mean, Hitler. Hitler came to power using the radio. Mussolini came to power using the radio. And so it was a time for a new technology. Everybody had a radio, sometimes more than one radio, and they took advantage of it. And their opponents hadn't mastered that yet. Okay.
Dan Sullivan [00:04:37]:
They, you know, they. They were still stump speeching. You know, they were taking train rides and going to a new. Or they were depending on the newspapers, or they were depending on the syndicated magazines and everything else. But Roosevelt just broke through and that went through. And then the next big hop, the next technology was jfk, John Kennedy, who really mastered what you're supposed to look like on television. And Richard Nixon. And Richard Nixon did not.
Dan Sullivan [00:05:08]:
Okay. And. And.
Mike Koenigs [00:05:14]:
If you want to see what. Why you need media training, go watch that.
Dan Sullivan [00:05:20]:
Nixon, his dad was deeply involved in Hollywood, and so they brought the best Hollywood. Hollywood talent. You know, the people who prepared you to, you know, to go in front of the camera, the lighting, the makeup, and just your delivery. And he clearly had gone through this training, I think, not just for the presidency. I think he had gone through it much earlier in life. And. And it was, you know, the. The election was very, very close.
Dan Sullivan [00:05:53]:
He had the fact that he was Catholic going against him, and there had never been a Catholic president, and so he was. So he had that. There was an anti Irish, you know. You know, there was a bias against Irish people. And he was the first Irish, you know, from. Descended from, you know, people from Ireland and everything else. And that was the next one that I can remember. Reagan really continued that trend.
Dan Sullivan [00:06:23]:
Reagan was. Reagan was as good on TV as JFK was. Reagan was always good on tv. He always knew where the camera angles were. He always knew what his position. And then, you know, I think Obama, when Obama came along, he was the first one to really take advantage of social media. Yep. So it was in 2008 2012.
Dan Sullivan [00:06:50]:
And in every case. So I want to say one thing. Going back to Reagan, actually, Reagan was a breakthrough, and it had to do with great, great marketing genius Richard Vigory.
Mike Koenigs [00:07:02]:
That's right. Direct mail, specifically.
Dan Sullivan [00:07:05]:
Yeah, direct mail. And Richard had figured out, based on just postal zones, there's 40,000 postal zones in the United States. He had figured out what the issues were in all the postal codes, that we're going to make an electoral difference. Okay. And he just sent messages. And, you know, a lot of people don't know it, but still, the most effective, cost effective form of communication in the world is still direct mail. And the reason is because nobody uses it. So if you use it, people get a hundred emails.
Dan Sullivan [00:07:40]:
Mostly they just disregard. But if you get three letters and they're waiting for you when you get home, you open it up and look at all the letters. But Richard vigory in the 1970s really figured out one of the great marketing geniuses who's still alive from the 1970s. And Richard's in his 90s and still going strong. Okay. And then Trump took a, you know, took a card from Obama and He went In 2000, let's do Clinton.
Mike Koenigs [00:08:13]:
Remember Clinton and cable.
Dan Sullivan [00:08:15]:
Clinton and cable, yeah. Clinton, yeah. Clinton went on the cable shows, he went the late night cable shows with his saxophone and he would, he would just have conversations. So that, that's really great. Yeah. And, you know, and there's a lot of people who breathe easy when they, they found out that Clinton couldn't run for a third term on the Republican side. I mean, Bill Clinton, if he had run a third time, would have won. Bill Clinton, if he had run a fourth time, would have won.
Dan Sullivan [00:08:45]:
You know, and anyway, I mean, he's just a made in heaven kind of political candidate. I mean, just, he still one of.
Mike Koenigs [00:08:54]:
The greatest orators of all time.
Dan Sullivan [00:08:57]:
Not only that, but when he was talking to you, you were the most special person in the whole universe. You know, he could turn an enemy into an admirer in about 30 minutes. I mean, he was just astonishing.
Mike Koenigs [00:09:09]:
Astonishing.
Dan Sullivan [00:09:10]:
But Trump went deeper with the social media and he didn't, he didn't do Facebook, he did Twitter. And they just did it for a very small number of electoral districts. And what they, what they, what they went after were 220 voting, voting districts. Yeah, there was the 220, and they were in five states. These were the swing states. Michigan, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania. I think there was one more that they did. And, and these were all districts that had voted for Obama in the previous two elections.
Dan Sullivan [00:09:56]:
Where Obama promised hope and change and they, the message, they went out, well, where's the hope and where's the change? And they just went. So it wasn't, it was, it was people who had voted for Obama who bypassed Hillary and voted for Trump because Hillary was perhaps one of the worst presidents on TV or to do. I mean, you wouldn't want Hillary on a podcast, you know, I mean, she's just a horribly stiff. I mean, apparently in person, you know, very gracious, funny, everything but just had gaps.
Mike Koenigs [00:10:30]:
She had no front stage and backstage, very different. I've known. People have known her for a long time and, and that's, I think part of it is she, she had to fight the system. She fought or believe she had to stay within it in order to appear strong. And that never served.
Dan Sullivan [00:10:48]:
But she just froze when she was in front of camera, you know. You know? You know, yeah. Anyway, and then Trump, you know, Trump won the first time. And this has a lot to do. What I'm. You brought up the topic. So you go into the Trump thing, bring us up to date, what, what happened there. And you were using, you know, very, very long, unplanned, unprepared, unstructured podcast, lawn podcast.
Dan Sullivan [00:11:21]:
And by the very nature of what those podcasts are, the other party can't use them.
Mike Koenigs [00:11:27]:
Yes. And, and I'll add my two cents here, because I've been podcasting since before the technology even was mainstream, before it was easy. And this is going back into the early 2000s. And there's a guy, Adam Curry is his name, the Podfather. I know him, he's a friend. He lives in Austin, Texas. And he was originally an MTV V or D. VJ is what they called him at the time.
Mike Koenigs [00:12:04]:
So he was, I think he may have been the first guy ever on mtv. And. But if you evolve a little bit, he developed what's known as the RSS feed for podcasts. And it was basically a way of connecting audio files together and creating a player so you could listen to long format content on your computer. And then they had a hack that let you put these on an ipod when they were basically a hard drive in your pocket in the old days. And then eventually they made it work. And then Apple, Steve Jobs met with, with Adam and saw the vision and basically made the Apple podcast app. So that's the origin.
Mike Koenigs [00:12:46]:
But the problem always was, where's the audience? And people just looked at it and thought it was a giant waste of time. Just like Crypto, which is now trading over $90,000 for Bitcoin. But the point is that later went into video podcasts and of course we had what YouTube did. But here's what's important about podcasts. They're like audiobooks in the sense that unbelievably intimate form of communication. Now, if you look a little bit further, Joe Rogan and also Gary V. Were two of the very first video podcasters out there. Gary Vee did Wine Library tv, which was him drinking wine on like Greeny tv.
Mike Koenigs [00:13:34]:
Again, hard to download. It was back in the old days when it took forever. You had to be very committed to consume this content. But he ended up getting thousands and thousands and thousands, tens of thousands, eventually hundreds of thousands of viewers, visitors and got to practice his craft, just like getting media trained, just like Nixon didn't do and JFK did. And then here we got Joe Rogan, which as of right now, you could argue commands a larger audience than all of cable and traditional media combined. Hundreds of millions of viewers. So the, the point of all of that is, if you look backwards, going back about 20 some years now, when podcasting started, is now arguably the most powerful, dominant form of media because it's giving people what they want, which is number one. There are no barriers, are no borders to get into the business.
Dan Sullivan [00:14:31]:
So it's absolutely, there's no gatekeepers, nothing.
Mike Koenigs [00:14:36]:
They are free, they're easy, they're accessible on any device, anywhere. There are no rules. You don't have regulatory bodies or the big networks. And Lex Friedman has done six and a half hour podcasts now, okay? And people want intimate, long format content to get to know someone and a host who knows how to talk about more than whatever someone else's agenda is. And Joe Rogan, in my opinion, the reason for the giant sweep, and I saw this happening the first time Trump showed up on a podcast. I said, he just won. And he went on Theo Vaughn, which is, if you haven't heard of him, he's a nutto former addict podcaster who's got hockey hair and looks and sounds like he grew up in a trailer park, because he basically did. Absolute coke addict and everything else.
Mike Koenigs [00:15:31]:
But he's in recovery and he disarms his guests with fascinating questions, all in podcast, which arguably is driving the mindset of Silicon Valley founders and entrepreneurs who are sick and tired of San Francisco culture, who flipped many, many, many Democrats with money, led initially by Thiel, Peter Thiel, who was one of JD Vance's biggest sponsors for many years. And then of course, Joe Rogan and Lex Friedman. And there are some other ands. But the net net is largely uncommitted non voting young men flipped. I believe the numbers, if you look at it, if you want to know where the extra 7, 8 million came from, I would argue a huge percentage were right there. They said screw this, I like this guy. And Trump went from a comical character to a decisive winner. And podcast ran it.
Mike Koenigs [00:16:33]:
And that's why I wanted to do this because when you look at the progress from who mastered the latest media and it's not the latest, it's not the newest, but it hit that impossible to beat volume of consumers. Okay, I'm, I'm done with that part.
Dan Sullivan [00:16:50]:
Yeah, the big, you know, the big thing about it is I've got a next quarter book, not the book that right now I'm writing a book called Creating great Leadership. Okay. So that's the title of the one that I'm doing right now. And. But the next one is going to be called the Bill of Rights Economy. Okay. And, and what? The Bill of Rights is the first 10amendments of the U.S. constitution.
Dan Sullivan [00:17:21]:
And these were amendments that were put in right at the time that the constitution was ratified, 1787. And the reason for them that these, this was the entire opposition to there being a federal government. You had 13 colonies and they came together, they fought the war, they won independence, and then they said, let's create a government that the power of all 13 colonies becomes the United States. And it becomes. And Madison, who was the, you know, he was sort of the programmer of the Constitution, James Madison. And, and he said if we don't include everybody who's scared of what we're doing here, if we don't put that up front, you have the articles, you, you know, you have the articles of the Constitution, but as soon as the articles, you, you have these first 10amendments. And the first one is freedom of assembly and freedom of speech. Okay, well, podcasting is the first amendment communication medium is that you get to say whatever you want to say.
Dan Sullivan [00:18:34]:
Okay. And you can do it any way you want and you can do it to the whole world and there's no interference from the outside. And, and there's no such thing as political, political speech. There's no thing as political. I mean, you can say anything you want if you, I mean, you take your chances because you may get it's, it's the take your chances for amendment to the Constitution. If you want to say something in public, you go ahead and say it. Can't guarantee you what the consequences are going to be, but if you want to take the risk and you got the medium and you got the audience, go for it, you know, and, and so I'm going through and showing that the, the economy that came out of the first 10amendments is a purely entrepreneurial economy. Okay.
Dan Sullivan [00:19:25]:
And I looked up the, I looked up the. Found the founders, the ones who signed the Declaration, and a lot of them went on to sign the ratify the Constitution. And they were all basically entrepreneurs, a bunch. You know, the United States is a country for the entrepreneurs or by the entrepreneurs of the entrepreneurs for the entrepreneurs. They were all entrepreneurs. So what do we have to put in as safeguards that the government can't screw us over? What do you think about that?
Mike Koenigs [00:19:58]:
I, first of all, I love the idea of creating contrast to the Bill of Rights. So while you were talking, I went and reread all the Bill of Rights through the context of this new book idea. And so the First Amendment is speech. Second is arms. Third is soldiers in time of peace be quartered in any house. So basically the military can't just take over your stuff. Again, it's ownership. Fourth is unreasonable search and seizure.
Mike Koenigs [00:20:32]:
Again, it's ownership of property. Fifth Amendment is, you know, subject for the same. Basically, it's, it's criminal. You can't just stack a whole bunch of crimes on someone and, and hold them for an unreasonable period of time. Basically do property pro is private property. Again, at the end of the day, you just can't take people's stuff.
Dan Sullivan [00:20:58]:
Yeah, it's private property. And that 9 and 10 are really interesting because 9 is.
Mike Koenigs [00:21:04]:
I don't understand 9. The constitution of certain rights shall not be construed or deny or disparage others retained by the people. So.
Dan Sullivan [00:21:16]:
Basically, if you, you can do anything you want that's not regulated. In other words, you can create entirely new activities. And if it doesn't come under any regulation, you're free to do it. And the 10th says that. What we haven't said the federal governments can do that. States can do it.
Mike Koenigs [00:21:38]:
States can. Yeah. Which is again, then you get to choose where to live. Of course. Yeah.
Dan Sullivan [00:21:47]:
The other thing is it guarantees transportation of goods and services across state lines. And the government can. Federal government cannot interfere with that. Like in Canada, for example, you can't produce beer in one province and sell it in the next province. I think the breweries had something to do with that.
Mike Koenigs [00:22:12]:
Yeah. And again, what that does is encourage entrepreneurial behavior to create more wealth and create more property and more ip, which is again, when you. What I'm Taking from this is you're going to re examine the fundamental operating system of the United States of America, which you could say the Constitution is one thing, but the Bill of Rights is really giving the power to the individual to innovate. And if we, if we stack on top of that, how do you create wealth? You the first to innovate, the first to iterate, and the first to bring it to market is always the winner. And then the first, going back to what your big push is these days, protect your ip. And all of those are built into the system, which is protect license. You know, the, these opportunities are phenomenal. And I have, I have an interesting story about a breakthrough that I had related to property ownership and ip, but it might not fit into this particular episode, which is again, all about the media.
Mike Koenigs [00:23:30]:
Not that we ever play by the rules, but if we go backwards just a little bit. First of all, I'd love to hear your reflection on what I just said and how it fits into your book.
Dan Sullivan [00:23:41]:
Yeah, well, the big thing about it is that if you take a circle and that's the United States, and then you have a smaller circle that holds the United States together as the Constitution, and then you go to a smaller circle in the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights is what allows the Constitution to be an effective operating system so that the overall country continues to progress. When you get, when you go a smaller circle in the Bill of Rights, it's entrepreneurs. The country was created by entrepreneurs. They were of entrepreneurs, by entrepreneurs, for entrepreneurs. And there was no other way to make a living except to self create your business, you know, and that was, you know, 1620 is the first permanent settlement in English Canada, English North America. And then you go 150 years, 56 years, you get the Declaration of Independence, the states, the colonies have formed. And in every case, the thing that was driving this was pure entrepreneurial activity.
Dan Sullivan [00:24:49]:
Right from the beginning, it was an entrepreneurial country. And I just said that if we go back and examine the first 10amendments which protect the individual from the government, that's basically the reason for the Bill of Rights is to protect the individual from the government, because government always colludes against the individual if you don't have checks and balances. And what I did is I took each of the amendments apart And I found 10, I found five entrepreneurial payoffs from the First Amendment, Second Amendment, right through the, to the 10th Amendment. And I'm going to write a little book on if you really want to be a great entrepreneur in the United States. Look to the first 10amendments as the basis for your opportunity.
Mike Koenigs [00:25:33]:
It's genius. Genius.
Dan Sullivan [00:25:36]:
Yeah.
Mike Koenigs [00:25:37]:
I love it.
Dan Sullivan [00:25:38]:
Yeah. That'll be out in March. That book will be out in March. Yeah.
Mike Koenigs [00:25:42]:
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Mike Koenigs [00:26:31]:
A digital cafe AI is a done for you service that can be adapted to any B2B or B2C business. Money loves speed and time kills deals. So visit digital cafe AI to see how it will work for you. So let's tie this together because I'm going to present something that I have absolutely no idea where it'll go, but you always synthesize an interesting point of view. So I'm going to reflect back the history of media, which is, let's say Roosevelt. Mastering radio, intimate conversation, bringing you into your bedrooms and your living rooms with the whole family, listening and talking and creating conversation. Because what would you be talking about yesterday? It's the fireside chat, which was long format, okay, Radio, they could have made a show that went on for a year. Okay, it went on as long as he could hold attention, advance to jfk, a face made for tv.
Dan Sullivan [00:27:39]:
Well, the other thing, the radio networks took it. If he was talking in Washington, people in California, people in Hawaii heard it, you know, the networks, radio networks.
Mike Koenigs [00:27:53]:
So yeah, it's one button broadcast now that's back when it cost a lot of money and before I think all the profit making profit taking mindsets in the networks and squeezing out every last drop came into being. But you know, during that innovation cycle, that's always the best time to be around. It's when the pure entrepreneurship's at work and engineers and geniuses play with a new technology. And then tv, I'd say the same thing, although the stakes are bigger. It's a lot more expensive, you got optics, much more bandwidth, a lot more hardware, a lot more money. But here's JFK performing on stage and same thing Worldwide broadcast multiplier effect, massive multiplier. If we advance to Reagan and direct mail, now that's not digital, or whether it's broadcast, which, again, is infinite. Here you do have different resources and tools, but affordable, you know, cut, you know, an endless supply of trees from one point of view.
Mike Koenigs [00:29:05]:
A friend of mine used to say, yeah, well, what happens if we run out? He goes, well, we chop down more trees and we print more books. But there again, it required strategy. There are some resources, but it turned into a math problem. And also being able to be an incredible writer, which I would say, you know, Benjamin Franklin, back in the day, he persuaded countries and cultures with his pen and, you know, the origin. I don't. Did you by any chance watch the Michael Douglas Benjamin Franklin show? The series? It's good. It's pretty. It's very captivating, and it really is a great story about how he swayed the French into financing his war and how he played everyone against each other and how unbelievably strategic he was in keeping his enemies close and playing everyone.
Mike Koenigs [00:30:00]:
Just a strategic genius. But it all was about the printing press.
Dan Sullivan [00:30:04]:
That was his power entrepreneur, too.
Mike Koenigs [00:30:07]:
Totally. I highly recommend the series. It's exceptional. And then so we go from Reagan to Clinton and cable. So again, we skip mediums. And then Obama and early social. Again, I would say that was when social was a little more pure, before it became an algorithmic disaster and nightmare. Not that the manipulation didn't exist, but it was different.
Mike Koenigs [00:30:40]:
And then Trump took advantage of outrage and I think his first wave of fake news and decimation and he could really plow into the idea of this is made up. You can't trust these institutions.
Dan Sullivan [00:30:56]:
But, you know, the interesting thing, if I can just bring in there about Trump, that when he ran, you know, just, you know, he's just off, you know, a dozen years of being on the Apprentice. You know, we. We knew Donald Trump and, you know, in 2016, because he had been a big star on reality TV for 12 years, and we know him, but his big thing was he didn't go after the Democrats. I don't remember him going after the Democrats. He didn't go. He didn't even go after Hillary except to call her crooked. You know, he went after the media. The enemy was the media.
Dan Sullivan [00:31:40]:
And within a period of eight years, I think he's destroyed the validity of the mainstream media.
Mike Koenigs [00:31:47]:
Yeah, yeah.
Dan Sullivan [00:31:48]:
And according to your thesis, he created room for, you know, podcasting. Podcasting to become the major media as a political tool.
Mike Koenigs [00:32:00]:
I think there's a tie in there. I do think there's two divergent things that also happened. And one is the rise of the game show host as a political character because Arnold Schwarzenegger did that before Trump. So basically, remember when the. I can remember when. Not Jesse the body, but in my home state of Minnesota, when the Rustler won against the contingent, two politicians, I.
Dan Sullivan [00:32:29]:
Think it was Mondale and Jesse Ventura.
Mike Koenigs [00:32:31]:
It was Jesse. Yeah. And, and it was like, I can remember when it happened. And I was actually close at the time. I was an advisor shortly to one of the political opponents who's mayor of St. Paul. I got brought in for a spell and I watched this happen. And I'm like, yeah, this dude's a, he's an east coaster.
Mike Koenigs [00:32:50]:
He ain't gonna make it. Minnesotans don't like your type here. And then, so it was basically two week candidates and Jesse bussed in kids to vote. So it was no different than Elon creating this opportunity as well. I mean, it was the perfect storm of everything all at once. But he just took advantage and boom. And it wasn't long after Schwarzenegger won because he was famous, a famous actor won because he's the most recognizable name on a ballot. So, so there we had the, the Trump win, which again, let's divide and conquer, split and create distrust amongst the media.
Mike Koenigs [00:33:29]:
Very effective, very smart. It's using the.
Dan Sullivan [00:33:32]:
Well, first of all, they're a shitty media. I mean, I mean, I mean, the. It was there to be broken.
Mike Koenigs [00:33:41]:
Agreed, agreed.
Dan Sullivan [00:33:45]:
He didn't weaken it. It was just weak. They had become politically correct and they were taking, you know, they were taking their orders from corporate corporations, you know, and, you know, and yeah, it was.
Mike Koenigs [00:34:01]:
It was the most apparent.
Dan Sullivan [00:34:02]:
The other thing is that every journalist over the last 40 years has gone through journalism school and said, here's the rules. We get to throw punches at you, but you don't get to throw punches at us. So they were defenseless. They never, they, they, none of their training was ever about how we defend ourselves from attack. And you could just see them. They were, they were, they, they were wimpy. They were. How dare he do this? You know, he's destroyed, he's destroying the eternal importance of the free press.
Dan Sullivan [00:34:33]:
Well, it wasn't a free press. And the other thing is, you know that we're, we're the defenders of the truth. Well, there was no truth, you know, so, I mean, every, every punch landed because we thought that they were phony to begin with.
Mike Koenigs [00:34:47]:
Yes. And I would say you could argue that 911 was the, in the, the first wars were the total decimation of truth because the, it became outrage and fear and non stop breaking news.
Dan Sullivan [00:35:06]:
Journalistic integrity was making work.
Mike Koenigs [00:35:09]:
Yeah. So it turned into reality TV of the worst sort. There was no integrity because it became glue the idiot's eyes to the screens for whatever period of time and there's always something going on and the, the characters, the quote unquote journalists did whatever they could to maintain massive, massive consumption of advertising dollars. So here we got CNN and Fox. Now I would also argue that during that time Rush Limbaugh, who I used to listen to, became an outrage monster. And again, it was basically the all star wrestling of commentary, which was satire. But also I think he was probably one of the biggest mouthpieces of hate. And I say this, I used to listen to him, I used to laugh until one day I just felt sick and I realized it was turning me into an angry dick.
Mike Koenigs [00:36:12]:
Being around that energy all the time.
Dan Sullivan [00:36:14]:
However, which did you not want to be angry or a dick?
Mike Koenigs [00:36:20]:
Yeah, yeah. Well, both at the same time because I would just start fights and arguments with people and I'm, I, I, I was like, I, I'm that guy I don't want around at Thanksgiving. And yeah, I just, it was, to me it turned into a divisive, poisonous thing that, and during that time when I was in that state, I wasn't innovating and creating at my peak. So it was a waste of energy. Yet great entertainment. Now if you, here's one thing that I want to spend a little time on though. So if we go from Trump to Trump, in between, we had Biden. What the hell happened in between there? And I don't really know how Biden got elected, which media, because he certainly is not a great speaker.
Mike Koenigs [00:37:05]:
He sucks on the radio. I don't think he's captivating at all on television. You know, he's stuttering. I think there's a certain everyman aspect and trusted guy who was your friend and, and there's a certain amount of earned respect there. And during that time people were sick of the outrage. So I think there was a blowback. But what the hell happened to the media in that period of time? What do you attribute that to?
Dan Sullivan [00:37:35]:
Oh, Covid. Okay, that was, you know, and we'll get to the bottom of this. Of how much the COVID period. Because it happened in March, in election year. It happened in March. So it was 220 and you had a total Trump hating media to begin with. Yeah, okay. And then they, they, they played on the fact that this was presented as a world threatening epidemic, okay.
Dan Sullivan [00:38:12]:
And they brought in all sort of medical experts who really didn't know what they were talking about, but were given the support of the US government and everything like that. So I think they, but it really happened in the change of voting laws in the states. You know that there's a, in every state there's a thing called the Secretary of state. And this is, I think, I'm not sure this is an elected office. I have to check on that. But George Soros had funded most of the secretaries of state. He had put, no, they're elected, Secretaries of states are elected, but they're not really a political role. They're the ones who oversee the voting laws of the states.
Dan Sullivan [00:38:57]:
And so there were without, without any approval by the legislatures, there were like 220 changes of voting laws where somebody could go to an old folks home and just get all the ballots from old folks home. You know, they just go up and up and down and they, you know, they would even sign them for them and everything else. And the reason I know that happened is because he got 81 million, he got 81 million votes. That's how many votes Biden got. But Kamala got I think 8 million fewer votes than Biden did. Okay. And we don't know what those votes are. Nobody can account for where the, well, the 8 million were.
Dan Sullivan [00:39:47]:
They were just manufacturing boats, you know, so that's how it happened. So I, I, I don't think it's such a big media thing, except the media totally supported the most draconian laws, you know, during that period of time. And okay, the investigations of this will go on for a long time. I mean, Dr. Fauci is going to be spending the next four or five years in front of Congress, you know, and, you know, and I don't know if he looks good in orange, but he should at least have a possibility of a different wardrobe as he goes forward. It was very interesting. All the doj, Department of Justice, the FBI, CIA, all these guys are lawyering up. Why are they lawyering up? They're getting high priced lawyers because they did something wrong.
Dan Sullivan [00:40:35]:
They did something and they're afraid. But I don't think they're going to prosecute. I think they're going to expose. If I was Trump, I wouldn't prosecute anybody. But I've exposed everybody that that is.
Mike Koenigs [00:40:48]:
Effectively what RFK's statement has been. And also I've, I've seen and read I think the shame effect. So I'm going to. First of all, before I go down, that I'm going to go down two paths. One of them is, I think if I interpreted what you said, Trump created massive distrust in the systems and media, and if I'm interpreting your version of reality, which I'm not disagreeing with, I just don't know enough to be. To say. But the blowback, a pendulum swing, was a. The Biden administration took advantage of the distrust and also that lockdown.
Mike Koenigs [00:41:34]:
I mean, you could get ultra conspiratorial and say this was a massive power grab to create a huge government control system and manufacture gigantic welfare state that didn't create a massive deficit. Largest ever to pull power back.
Dan Sullivan [00:41:57]:
No, I don't think it was. I don't think it was a conspiracy. I don't think it was a conscious conspiracy. I think it was an intuitive power grab. In other words, that on the Democratic side, the only thing they know and respect is power. Okay. So if you take advantage of a situation and get more power, they do it. I mean, you know, my whole sense of the left, period, is that politics is everything because there's no God, there's no anything else.
Dan Sullivan [00:42:29]:
Politics is God, and you want the most power. Power to do it. I mean, they're like rattlesnakes. You cut off their head, they can still kill you, you know? Yeah. I mean, they're. And my sense is that the media was totally bought into one side of the political spectrum. You know, they. They wanted power, too.
Dan Sullivan [00:42:48]:
The media wanted power. I mean, I want power. You want power. Okay. Yeah. Except I do it through negotiation rather than grabbing.
Mike Koenigs [00:42:57]:
Yeah, it's. That is. That is fascinating, but either way, I would. My reaction when I was listening to you is it's a pendulum swing blowback that Trump created this momentum of destruction.
Dan Sullivan [00:43:13]:
I think he articulated a momentum that was already happening.
Mike Koenigs [00:43:17]:
I completely agree. And I think this.
Dan Sullivan [00:43:19]:
I mean, I think Ross Perot is one of the beginner. The televangelists in the 70s and 80s are part of that. This was a blowback that was coming. It was long in the swing. It's just that Trump is a great articulator. I don't think he created this. I think he. He wrote it as he has the guts to actually stand up and take hits.
Mike Koenigs [00:43:47]:
Yeah.
Dan Sullivan [00:43:49]:
Very few politicians could take the risks that he does.
Mike Koenigs [00:43:53]:
Trump, you're saying?
Dan Sullivan [00:43:54]:
Oh, yeah.
Mike Koenigs [00:43:55]:
Oh, yeah. No, it's.
Dan Sullivan [00:43:57]:
I mean, he gets. He gets winged in the air and his hand goes up like this.
Mike Koenigs [00:44:01]:
Oh, yeah.
Dan Sullivan [00:44:04]:
You don't rehearse that.
Mike Koenigs [00:44:06]:
That. I think that's truly a defining moment. And I can remember watching it and going, huh, that's fascinating. Well, and you know, every one over Elon.
Dan Sullivan [00:44:18]:
That was the thing that went over.
Mike Koenigs [00:44:20]:
It was it. I remember the moment it happened. I'm like, oh, sh. This is gonna. This is really interesting because before then I was, I was still in the meh. Anyone's game. And, and you know, I've. I was chatting with and I've told.
Mike Koenigs [00:44:37]:
Talked about this before, Kurt and Kristen Lewdhart, who have been the political folks for 15 years and responsible for, you know, hundreds of Republicans getting elected. I was talking to them in real time and they still didn't know. They were like, man, anyone's game. But that was. Let's see what's going to come out of this. But again, I would. If we bring it all the way back to what is so great about podcasting is that is the one medium that is the most intimate and is the least controlled. There is no big media.
Mike Koenigs [00:45:16]:
There's no Facebook, there's no Google. There is no. Or meta, rather even. Apple doesn't own or dominate. Spotify doesn't own or dominate. Now there are channels. Spotify gave Joe Rogan. I think they just renewed.
Mike Koenigs [00:45:30]:
You know, it's $100 million deal a year plus. I mean, he's, he's got to be in the. You know, that guy's got a billion dollars worth of leverage available to him at any time. And he has. And people who talk about what he's done for comedy in the arts in Austin. But anyway, I do think we're in a. What I love most, intimate. Nobody's in control as long as you want.
Mike Koenigs [00:46:01]:
And now it is about character, entertainment, engagement and intimacy. And I think intimate media is the most important media. And I believe that what we'll see is a reflection of this. I pray that we don't see a consolidation. I want it to stay in the hands of all of us, just like we have control over this podcast.
Dan Sullivan [00:46:26]:
Yeah, but what do you think about the possibility that by the very nature of who they are, the Democrats cannot use this medium that well, it goes.
Mike Koenigs [00:46:40]:
To show the unlikability of the character and how many they can't walk without destroying themselves in a minefield.
Dan Sullivan [00:46:47]:
Yeah. I think Hillary tried to do podcasting and I mean, it fizzled right from the first episode, you know. You know, and everything else. You can't lecture on podcasts.
Mike Koenigs [00:47:00]:
Yeah. No, you're gonna have a narrow audience. Yes, sir. You're Right.
Dan Sullivan [00:47:05]:
You can, you can have strong opinions, but you can't lecture, you know, because, you know, I, I just think, and I don't know if I've ever seen this before, but just psychologically, philosophically, and politically, who the left is, it makes podcasting impossible for them.
Mike Koenigs [00:47:27]:
I. Here's, I'm going to say in general, I agree with you. I would suggest.
Dan Sullivan [00:47:35]:
What would it take for you to agree with me? 100%.
Mike Koenigs [00:47:38]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, here I'm going to give you an instance. And he's not liberal, okay? He, he's liberal, but he's not on the left, which is Bill Maher. His past episodes, for a while, he lost me, and I paid attention to him. I watched him for decades. He's my regular Friday night stuff, and I really studied the hell out of him and I've read his books. His podcast is fantastic. He brings on everyone.
Mike Koenigs [00:48:07]:
He is not afraid to bring on anyone, and he offers to have everyone on there. Now, he does have his bias, but, like, he got up in one of his last episodes and he said, you idiots, you lost. You effed us all. And his core thing is we have to protect liberalism and being able to say what we have and be an entertainer. And, you know, he's got his own fears, but, but the best left are going to be comedians first.
Dan Sullivan [00:48:39]:
Well, entertainer Jon Stewart's doing a really good job right now.
Mike Koenigs [00:48:44]:
He's, he's, he's so.
Dan Sullivan [00:48:48]:
He's very funny.
Mike Koenigs [00:48:49]:
He is, yeah. He's an entertainer.
Dan Sullivan [00:48:54]:
Yeah, but he was funny before. You know, I mean, he totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike Koenigs [00:48:59]:
And I don't, I don't feel dirty after I, I watch or listen to him. And look, I, I did the same thing. The, the Daily show. Watched it every single night that it was on for decades. And I loved the tariffs. And I have to say, I was persuaded by his perspective. I've never found Tucker Carlson to be palatable, which, by the way, he went to school at the same school that my son went to. It's Lahea Country Day, and he's not a liked person here.
Mike Koenigs [00:49:33]:
There's a lot of people. But I see the genius in what he does.
Dan Sullivan [00:49:38]:
I like it. I like him when he goes manic.
Mike Koenigs [00:49:41]:
Oh, his.
Dan Sullivan [00:49:44]:
No, he went manic a couple of times on stage. You know, he totally did. Yeah, I, I kind of like it when you go out of control, you know? Like, you know, it's kind, it's kind of neat, you know?
Mike Koenigs [00:49:56]:
Yeah, I'm, I'm with you. So I, I again, hey, can we.
Dan Sullivan [00:50:02]:
Put out a general shout out for Joe Polish, just the way that he moderated an amazing day where he had Bobby Kennedy, he had Jordan Peterson. Peterson and, and Tucker and Kelly Means. Kelly Means, who's not as well known as the other three, but I think you see a lot of blueprints of Kelly Means behind the, you know, yes. Movement of transforming the healthcare system. But Joe, Joe is just this incredibly useful moderator. Interviewers, greatest compliment that I can get, I think. Joe, I, I said, Joe, when you wake up tomorrow morning, tomorrow morning you're going to be 10 times higher in your confidence about what you just pulled off today.
Mike Koenigs [00:50:59]:
And he is in a position where he is one degree of separation from the most powerful people and government in American history. And he earned it because he has been planting seeds with all of these people now for, for sure, six or seven years, but I would even argue decades before. But I mean the cost and risk to him to pay for RFK to be there. Jordan Peterson and Tucker, you know, there's no doubt in my mind that that event did not net him money, but what it did is it created a massive increase in capital. And when you look at his influence, his access, but also you look at his numbers, because I've been paying attention to his social numbers. The Jordan Peterson and the Tucker Carlson videos have been seen millions of times. The timing and the team he's assembled. Hats off to Joe for sticking to his guns.
Mike Koenigs [00:52:08]:
And there have been a few times when I've watched and listened to him, especially during the lockdown. I was like, man, I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. I just, I wouldn't have put my ass on the line like he was willing to. And I'm like, hats off, well played. And, and it doesn't come from a place of expecting or getting power or money. That's not who he is. So.
Dan Sullivan [00:52:35]:
He was, I was feeling very admiring and very admiring and incredibly respectful towards what Joe pulled off. That. Yeah, all along. I mean, you know, last 27 years, just the constant growth. I thought that that was amazing.
Mike Koenigs [00:52:57]:
Yeah, I, I'm in a hundred percent agreement. I, I'm excited. And, and I, I had the weirdest thing happen because you and I were in the front row. The cameras were on us apparently a lot. I got so many people sending me texts saying, I just saw you at Joe Polish's. And then with RFK or Jordan Peterson or Tucker Carlson, it was like all within 48 or 72 hours. Just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So that to be in that room during what felt like a historical moment.
Mike Koenigs [00:53:35]:
And I have not been, I've, I've never been a big fan of Donald Trump the human. I found him to be a fascinating character, but I've always had my issues with the guy for a long time. But I, I look at this and I'm like, this is one of the most fascinating collections.
Dan Sullivan [00:53:57]:
Just we're getting near the end here, but the other people have commented on this. But I think that where this, what, what he's done and what we're going through right now. Various scholars have called it a realignment. There's sort of a realignment, and I would say there's only been four in American history. The first was Washington, you know, and the whole way the war was won and the country was put together. And he being the first president who after two terms said, I'm retiring where he could have been King George, the first of the United States if he wanted to, but he didn't, you know, and so that realigned everything. The colonies became states. The country of the United States became very important in the world and has grown importance every, every year since then.
Dan Sullivan [00:54:54]:
The second one was Lincoln because there were two countries, there was the slave country and then there was the very industrious industrial country. And, and Lincoln was willing to risk the entire future of the country just to get that settled. Okay. And then Roosevelt, you had, the political system was 30 years behind the growth of the industrial system and the government had to be brought up to be useful within a rapidly industrializing country. And I think Trump is bringing the country into the digital networking world that the government has to come into. And you don't need 2.3 million civilian employees of the government just at the federal level to run a networked country, a network country. There's no need for a Department of Education, there's no need for a Department of labor, there's no need for Department of Agriculture. All the networks, the trade networks out there can take it.
Dan Sullivan [00:56:08]:
You can let the states govern them at their level. So probably we could get rid of very easily 40% of civil servants and let them explore future money making careers, if only in Alaska and, or anything. And I think we're living through one of the realignments and that's, I think, what makes it so interesting. Everything is realigning right now.
Mike Koenigs [00:56:41]:
Yeah, I think putting the power.
Dan Sullivan [00:56:43]:
America doesn't have revolutions, America has realignments.
Mike Koenigs [00:56:47]:
That's great. What a great way to end. And I've never been so optimistic about being an American. America or the fact that as an entrepreneur, a founder, an entrepreneur, I feel like this is my country and, and prior to that I, I felt, you know, a sadness of a loss of control and a desire to not participate. And I, I really feel like this isn't just me. I feel an overall collected sense of peace and even my, some of my most left leaning friends, which I live in a very divided world. I have a lot of founder, owner, entrepreneurs in my lot on my life and I have a lot of very liberal minded, outspoken Democrats and I, I love looking at both and listening to both. But right now, you said it at the very beginning, a whole bunch of Republicans emerged in 48 hours and I've witnessed it, seen it, observed it and I, I feel an overall sense of optimism.
Mike Koenigs [00:58:07]:
There weren't people shooting each other out in the streets. We didn't have a revolution. And this is going to be a fascinating, fascinating next couple of years as long as everyone can stay focused on the big picture, which is making sure that this is the most innovative free country in the world.
Dan Sullivan [00:58:25]:
Yep. So there we go.
Mike Koenigs [00:58:31]:
What an amazing episode once again. Dan Sullivan, I can't tell you how much I just find these to be the highlight of my life spending time with you and I feel like I'm wiser every time and I hope everyone who's listening and watching feels the same way. But any final words before we wrap this episode up?
Dan Sullivan [00:58:49]:
Yeah, yeah, I think we can all just personally get on amplifying our capabilities.
Mike Koenigs [00:58:57]:
That's awesome. Well, here we go. Make sure you forward this episode. Joe Pumpkin Polish, another big I love you to you and make sure you share this with anyone you know who would find it interesting, fascinating and capability improving and enhancing. See you soon.
